Feels like this deserves its own topic.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/may/05/daniel-davis-move-jail-out-of-downtown-speed-development-process/
With so many other needs, prioritizing relocation of the jail remains a staggeringly insane idea.
The question shouldn't be, "Does having the jail in its current location hurt downtown vibrancy?"
The question should be, "If improving downtown vibrancy is our end goal, and we have $500-$600 million we'd like to budget toward that goal, is relocation of the jail the best use of these dollars?"
This is an ASTRONOMICAL amount of money that results in zero immediate net-new addition to downtown.
For context, for the same amount of money it would cost to relocate the jail, you could fully fund the Laura Street Trio renovation project incentives ($62 million), the proposed piers and food hall at Shipyards West ($30 million), the proposed restaurant and public art at Riverfront Plaza ($25 million), the UF Graduate Center ($50 million), a full revamp of JWJ park ($10 million), open up the retail bays at the Main Library to Laura Street ($1 million), pump an extra $20 million into each of the major riverfront parks in the planning stages ($80 million), and still have enough leftover to fund Lot J ($250 million) with CASH TO SPARE to toss at MOSH, build a new museum on the Southbank in the old MOSH space, remediate Hogan's Creek, two-way the streets, incentivize historic rehabs or restaurant/retail leases, etc.
Not saying these are the right projects, but I find it impossible to believe that the collective benefit to downtown from a mix of projects like this is outweighed by the net detriment of having our prison located near the river.
The DIA's end goal for the jail property is a convention center, but with half a billion dollars committed to moving the jail, and likely close to $750 million committed to what the Jags want to do with the stadium rehab and Lot J 2.0, there's no universe where we can afford a convention center in the next 20 years if the jail is prioritized, short of selling JEA or a major new Better Jax-like plan. So, more than likely, the end result of moving the jail would be yet another piece of prime property sitting vacant for decades.
This does nothing to help downtown vibrancy, and the opportunity cost is staggering.
We have spent MORE THAN ENOUGH MONEY removing things from downtown based on supposed opportunity (the Landing, River City Brewing, Greyhound Station, Courthouse & Annex, Berkman 2, a city block at Coastline, etc.) without adding anything concrete back to replace them. It's gotten us nowhere, greatly reduce downtown density, and cost hundreds of millions with nothing to show for it.
Davis (and Curry before) pushing this as high-priority for their buddies at the JSO displays a fundamental lack of understanding about what it will truly take to move our downtown forward.
Here's my take: WHY are we doing it?
I ask this because if the jail is truly at the end of its useful life and we need a new one and we'd have spent this money anyway even if the jail was nowhere near downtown, then that's one thing. At that point then it's not really a downtown project - it's something that has to be spent anyway.
But, I don't know the answer to this question.
Moving the jail is not a zero sum game at all. In fact, the city of Jacksonville has paid hundreds of millions already with it being in its current place. You just don't see it, nor is it a dollar amount that is able to be defined easily.
Here are all the costs of the jail thus-far:
1). The land
2). The building
3). Cost of any expansion from Day 0
4). The lack of tax revenue from an entire subregion of downtown being depressed
5). The extracurricular events/things that devalued the greater region around the jail
6). The increased police dollar to account for having increased crime DT
I'm sure those more aware with the jail can offer some more. Like paying to demolish a rooftop park on a jail. Nonetheless, the combined price tag of all of that is easily more than the cost of relocating the jail, just put a time factor on your money. And honestly if anyone doesn't think there is a depression of values in this general area, then IDK what to tell ya. It is a fact.
Here are all of the benefits to moving the jail out of DT.
1). The land could be used for an extreme social & private benefit
2). The reduction of crime in the immediate subregion the jail is around
3). The increase in adjacent land values (a huge annual tax bill difference)
4). Actually being able to attract outside investment without REV grants & incentives ("Hey developer, come build a $50M product next to a jail!")
5). Ability to create a cohesive environment from the core to the sports district
--
IDK any project in Jacksonville that has a benefit even close to what would occur if the jail was relocated. Seriously, not a single project. 4S, Trio, The District.. you name it. There is no project/property that negatively affects property values, negatively affects the social climate, and sits on basically the largest accumulation of land in all of DT. The jail relocation is the biggest no brainer item that exists in JAX as of today.
Demolish the jail. Build the UF campus there. Have a cool transition between the sports/ entertainment area to UF campus to DT core.
Quote from: RatTownRyan on May 05, 2023, 01:03:03 PM
Demolish the jail. Build the UF campus there. Have a cool transition between the sports/ entertainment area to UF campus to DT core.
Literally, think about how awesome that would be. We only have so much prime riverfront.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 05, 2023, 01:08:20 PM
Quote from: RatTownRyan on May 05, 2023, 01:03:03 PM
Demolish the jail. Build the UF campus there. Have a cool transition between the sports/ entertainment area to UF campus to DT core.
Literally, think about how awesome that would be. We only have so much prime riverfront.
Truth be told there is probably not a city anywhere in the US, of any size, with MORE vacant 'prime' riverfront than Jacksonville.
You can't put the UF campus there because 1) it won't be ready in time and 2) it is already being planned as the future convention center site.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 05, 2023, 12:47:40 PM
Moving the jail is not a zero sum game at all. In fact, the city of Jacksonville has paid hundreds of millions already with it being in its current place. You just don't see it, nor is it a dollar amount that is able to be defined easily.
Here are all the costs of the jail thus-far:
1). The land
2). The building
3). Cost of any expansion from Day 0
4). The lack of tax revenue from an entire subregion of downtown being depressed
5). The extracurricular events/things that devalued the greater region around the jail
6). The increased police dollar to account for having increased crime DT
I'm sure those more aware with the jail can offer some more. Like paying to demolish a rooftop park on a jail. Nonetheless, the combined price tag of all of that is easily more than the cost of relocating the jail, just put a time factor on your money. And honestly if anyone doesn't think there is a depression of values in this general area, then IDK what to tell ya. It is a fact.
Here are all of the benefits to moving the jail out of DT.
1). The land could be used for an extreme social & private benefit
2). The reduction of crime in the immediate subregion the jail is around
3). The increase in adjacent land values (a huge annual tax bill difference)
4). Actually being able to attract outside investment without REV grants & incentives ("Hey developer, come build a $50M product next to a jail!")
5). Ability to create a cohesive environment from the core to the sports district
--
IDK any project in Jacksonville that has a benefit even close to what would occur if the jail was relocated. Seriously, not a single project. 4S, Trio, The District.. you name it. There is no project/property that negatively affects property values, negatively affects the social climate, and sits on basically the largest accumulation of land in all of DT. The jail relocation is the biggest no brainer item that exists in JAX as of today.
First, if I remember by college economics classes correctly (it has been a
long time), the first three items listed are sunk costs from the initial decision to locate the Pre-Trial Facility there. Thus, irrelevant to the discussion of the cost to relocate.
Is the property tax base around the PTF depressed? Is it because of the PTF? Would the value of the Berkman or Maxwell House be more without the PTF?
Is the crime rate higher downtown? Higher near the PTF and Police Station? Are the PTF and Police Station the cause of the alleged higher crime rate?
According to the Property Appraiser webpage, the Pre-Trial Facility, the Police HQ, and adjacent parking cover about 10 acres. Granted, if the PTF were moved to the Prison Farm out near the Veterans Cemetary, there would presumably be no land acquisition cost. But, where are you going to move the Police HQ? I am sure the sheriff wants to be centrally located.
Hasn't the city provided REV grants to projects not at all close to the PTF?
The 10 acre site is pencilled in as the location of a new convention center. I assume this facility would be city-owned, and would not add anything to the property tax base.
Would a convention center be a "better" use of the site than the Police HQ and Pre-Trial Detention Facility? Sure. But, is the transformation the best use of over a billion public dollars at this point?
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 05, 2023, 12:47:40 PM
Moving the jail is not a zero sum game at all. In fact, the city of Jacksonville has paid hundreds of millions already with it being in its current place. You just don't see it, nor is it a dollar amount that is able to be defined easily.
Here are all the costs of the jail thus-far:
1). The land
2). The building
3). Cost of any expansion from Day 0
I'm sure those more aware with the jail can offer some more. Like paying to demolish a rooftop park on a jail in the next 4 years. Nonetheless, the combined price tag of all of that is easily more than the cost of relocating the jail, just put a time factor on your money.
Respectfully, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. What's been spent already is all sunk cost that shouldn't be a consideration in whether or not it is prudent to move the jail. If anything, having existing assets and infrastructure in place should be a strike against moving the jail, in a vacuum. This isn't a facility that was built in 1940. It's barely 30 years old.
QuoteThe lack of tax revenue from an entire subregion of downtown being depressed. And honestly if anyone doesn't think there is a depression of values in this general area, then IDK what to tell ya. It is a fact.
Where's the evidence that the presence of the jail is stifling development in the last decade? There was heavy interest in the Ford on Bay RFP. The Doro is topped off. The highest end steakhouse in town opened two blocks away. Four Seasons has agreed to build a hotel down the street. Intuition is doing fine. MOSH is moving its family museum in. We're full speed ahead on a new park and food hall at Shipyards West. Hyatt business has boomed post-recession, and there was plenty of interest in convention center at the adjacent parcel.
Berkman 2 is the main failure that stands out, but even that situation seems more tied to the economic downturn in 2008 forward, city meddling, and lackluster ownership groups not knowing what or how to do with the site. Aside from the Berkmans, what private property is being depressed?
I'd argue any depression in tax revenue from the adjacency is because everything is either publicly owned park space, brownfield, or large-scale proposed development getting the same REV grants that projects on the Southbank or CBD are getting.
QuoteHere are all of the benefits to moving the jail out of DT.
1). The land could be used for an extreme social & private benefit
2). The reduction of crime in the immediate subregion the jail is around
3). The increase in adjacent land values (a huge annual tax bill difference)
4). Actually being able to attract outside investment without REV grants & incentives ("Hey developer, come build a $50M product next to a jail!")
5). Ability to create a cohesive environment from the core to the sports district
I don't doubt it would benefit Jacksonville to move the jail away from downtown, I just don't buy for a second that REV grants in the tens of millions being floated to developments from the Strand, to the Penisula, to Related's Southbank apartments, to FIS headquarters, to the Landing, to the Laura Street Trio, to the District, to the Shipyards project are somehow the result of a prison being housed on the eastern portion of the riverfront.
Those REV grants aren't going to go away because there's a fenced off 10-acre field where the prison once stood.
And let's not forget the last time we heard this. The promises about how removing the blight of the dangerous, decrepit Jacksonville Landing was going to be a catalyst for the explosion of downtown Jacksonville and the end to incentives.
To Steve's point, it's obviously important to better understand whether this is a want for downtown development or a true need (not a bullshit "need" like the Hart Bridge ramps "needing" to go to improve Talleyrand, or JEA "needing" to be sold to circumvent financial ruin for the city) necessitated by the existing facility reaching end-of-life.
If someone can find me another city that has more than a thousand feet of buildable riverfront/waterfront property, that has been vacant for more than a decade, I will kindly recant everything I said. I am reasonably confident you won't. (Also Brooklyn has had all of its Riverfront owned by sizeable firms/companies for decades now.) That lost tax revenue.. sheesh. Also to the "Courthouse" responders.. well yeah you are kind of adding to my argument. Govt buildings don't pay taxes. Profit generating businesses & residences generate a lot of revenue though. Also, that was a courthouse with a surface lot. So...
There is another phenomena in building, shown by the prison. The prison officially marks the end of any tall buildings (density.) So, all those decades of building, and nothing has been built of densities rivaling the central core. Office, residential etc. This where most of the translation gets lost. The opportunity cost there is staggering. Its decades long. If I made a model, it would make your eyes tear up at the sheer lost value.
The opportunity cost of most these decisions have compounded drastically to what we see today. And it's why the DT died and why there has been hundreds of millions poured into it to "fix" it. How can a DT with a river running through it die? I'd understand if the geography was that of ATL, but frankly it isn't.
Nothing is a zero sum game, and the decisions made back then have cost us substantially more than anything we are talking about now. Question is, do you want to continue to make the same economic errors that previous generations did?
And the projects going on today, are several blocks away and likely lobbying for it.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 05, 2023, 04:10:19 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 05, 2023, 12:47:40 PM
Moving the jail is not a zero sum game at all. In fact, the city of Jacksonville has paid hundreds of millions already with it being in its current place. You just don't see it, nor is it a dollar amount that is able to be defined easily.
Here are all the costs of the jail thus-far:
1). The land
2). The building
3). Cost of any expansion from Day 0
4). The lack of tax revenue from an entire subregion of downtown being depressed
5). The extracurricular events/things that devalued the greater region around the jail
6). The increased police dollar to account for having increased crime DT
I'm sure those more aware with the jail can offer some more. Like paying to demolish a rooftop park on a jail. Nonetheless, the combined price tag of all of that is easily more than the cost of relocating the jail, just put a time factor on your money. And honestly if anyone doesn't think there is a depression of values in this general area, then IDK what to tell ya. It is a fact.
Here are all of the benefits to moving the jail out of DT.
1). The land could be used for an extreme social & private benefit
2). The reduction of crime in the immediate subregion the jail is around
3). The increase in adjacent land values (a huge annual tax bill difference)
4). Actually being able to attract outside investment without REV grants & incentives ("Hey developer, come build a $50M product next to a jail!")
5). Ability to create a cohesive environment from the core to the sports district
--
IDK any project in Jacksonville that has a benefit even close to what would occur if the jail was relocated. Seriously, not a single project. 4S, Trio, The District.. you name it. There is no project/property that negatively affects property values, negatively affects the social climate, and sits on basically the largest accumulation of land in all of DT. The jail relocation is the biggest no brainer item that exists in JAX as of today.
First, if I remember by college economics classes correctly (it has been a long time), the first three items listed are sunk costs from the initial decision to locate the Pre-Trial Facility there. Thus, irrelevant to the discussion of the cost to relocate.
Is the property tax base around the PTF depressed? Is it because of the PTF? Would the value of the Berkman or Maxwell House be more without the PTF?
Is the crime rate higher downtown? Higher near the PTF and Police Station? Are the PTF and Police Station the cause of the alleged higher crime rate?
According to the Property Appraiser webpage, the Pre-Trial Facility, the Police HQ, and adjacent parking cover about 10 acres. Granted, if the PTF were moved to the Prison Farm out near the Veterans Cemetary, there would presumably be no land acquisition cost. But, where are you going to move the Police HQ? I am sure the sheriff wants to be centrally located.
Hasn't the city provided REV grants to projects not at all close to the PTF?
The 10 acre site is pencilled in as the location of a new convention center. I assume this facility would be city-owned, and would not add anything to the property tax base.
Would a convention center be a "better" use of the site than the Police HQ and Pre-Trial Detention Facility? Sure. But, is the transformation the best use of over a billion public dollars at this point?
- Agreed they are irrelevant to relocate but nonetheless public dollars went in to its creation.
- Yes both sites would be worth substantially more without the prison adjacent to it
- I don't have exact numbers, and could be wrong on the crime. However, I live nearby and can tell you that the Southbank/Brooklyn areas certainly gives off a slightly different vibe than the Northbank which is only two or so blocks away. LaVilla is also much more quiet from my experience. Again, maybe this is just me, but I have heard similar opinions to mine.
- From my understanding of previous reporting, there is already land available tied with another facility. I think the Sherriff's office requires a HQ from the eventual RFP
- I'm personally a believer in upgrading an existing facility to create a convention center. Maybe the Hyatt. I also don't think the convention center is an immediate need.
- I think a 10-acre RFP for a master plan site, could fetch an amazing dollar. Miami just had a $1.2B land sale.. I'm more of a believer in requiring public benefit through RFP's as developers are often much more willing to create public spaces that way. Usually in trade for some benefit on their end.
Just my thoughts.
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2023, 12:38:12 PM
Here's my take: WHY are we doing it?
I ask this because if the jail is truly at the end of its useful life and we need a new one and we'd have spent this money anyway even if the jail was nowhere near downtown, then that's one thing. At that point then it's not really a downtown project - it's something that has to be spent anyway.
But, I don't know the answer to this question.
The same group of players have the pushing this jail removal thing for a number of years. Its irrelevant to making downtown vibrant. However, we make (and have been making) several decisions in downtown that have little to nothing to do with really making things vibrant from a cost effective perspective. Same donor class (doesn't matter who the mayor is) + billions spent = same end results.
Maybe someday, the jail should be moved. But like some have noted, that is not the main issue holding back Downtown. It is incompetent leadership that can't even implement the very basics of creating a vibrant area... and not necessarily having to spend a bundle do it. It is a lack of vision, planning, discipline, common sense... and caring to build a City for all and not just a few preferred friends of the Mayor.
Take care of all of the above and then we can talk about moving the jail... or, for that matter, building a convention center. There are so many prerequisites that should be addressed before even thinking about these projects.
FYI, at this point, who benefits the most from moving the jail or having a convention center? Or making Bay Street an "innovation" corridor featuring the $400+ million U2C fiasco? I say Shad Khan more than anyone else. This on top of another version of Lot J and a billion dollar stadium makeover. Meanwhile, there is no money for the Northwest Quadrant or so many other City needs.
Too add, as Nate Monroe pointed out months ago, no way Davis can deliver on his promises based on the financial math unless he gets a tax increase, something he said he will not do.
Just a sample of what may need big dollars:
1. New jail at $400+ million.
2. Pensions again for JSO.
3. Existing underfunded pension plan that Curry never really fixed.
4. 200+ more JSO officers.
5. Billion dollar stadium deal.
6. Incentives for development and new businesses.
7. Annual pay raises to retain and attract competent City employees.
8. Garbage fund shortfall of tens of millions or more.
9. New version of Jacksonville Journey.
10. Fixing up downtown.
11. Investing in infrastructure that is crumbling.
12. Replacing septic tanks.
13. New convention center.
14. Addressing resiliency needs.
15. Developing and maintaining parks.
Shad Khan will be dead by the time half of this stuff materials. Most of us as well. Some of these regurgitated ideas have been pushed way longer than Khan has been in town.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2023, 09:05:33 PM
Shad Khan will be dead by the time half of this stuff materials. Most of us as well. Some of these regurgitated ideas have been pushed way longer than Khan has been in town.
Exactly. But if they suddenly get traction, where do you think the "mojo" would be emanating from? ;D See Hart Bridge ramp project.
I don't believe Shad Khan is the mastermind before the idea of moving the jail and building a convention center there. Demoing the Hart Bridge and opening up access to the stadium and Metropolitan Park makes sense (if the goal is to develop around the stadium). We just screwed it up by not knocking the entire thing down.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2023, 09:26:24 PM
I don't believe Shad Khan is the mastermind before the idea of moving the jail and building a convention center there. Demoing the Hart Bridge and opening up access to the stadium and Metropolitan Park makes sense (if the goal is to develop around the stadium). We just screwed it up by not knocking the entire thing down.
Not saying he is the mastermind, but if he benefits, he is no fool and will act as a significant catalyst, as he did for the Hart Bridge ramp, to get it done, if anyone can. If not for Khan's "input," the Hart Bridge ramp would still be standing. That's all.
Honestly, I was going to elaborate, but I'd rather not. I'm confident that another more impactful property DT can't be named.
There's a very singular reason for the Berkman being worth 50% less per sf than the Peninsula. No politician made that happen.
The jail really is past its adequacy. Not just a talking point. Whomever is mayor will have to begin to address it sometime in their first term, one way or another. It can't remain as is for another 5+ years without some type of change initiated, whether that's moving & building new, expanding, etc. I'm sure there are less expensive bandaids than moving & building new, but that doesn't seem like the best solution long term.
Quote from: fsu813 on May 06, 2023, 01:36:31 AM
The jail really is past its adequacy. Not just a talking point. Whomever is mayor will have to begin to address it sometime in their first term, one way or another. It can't remain as is for another 5+ years without some type of change initiated, whether that's moving & building new, expanding, etc. I'm sure there are less expensive bandaids than moving & building new, but that doesn't seem like the best solution long term.
Out of curiosity, aside from complaints about its current location, why is it inadequate? Too small? Not secure? Huge inefficiencies? If it needs renovations, are they disproportional compared to moving?
Is there some important synergy to having the jail next to JSO HQ's and near the courthouse? Where do other cities locate their jails? Far from Downtown - like Davis is suggesting moving to the pea farm?
Other than its location, I don't recall a big outcry for moving the jail so just trying to understand what other operational (not real estate) reasons might justify moving it.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 05, 2023, 10:09:23 PM
Honestly, I was going to elaborate, but I'd rather not. I'm confident that another more impactful property DT can't be named.
There's a very singular reason for the Berkman being worth 50% less per sf than the Peninsula. No politician made that happen.
I'm confident that there's no such thing as a one trick pony when it comes to urban development and redevelopment. You could flood $600 to $700 million in public money into multiple parks, infill and adaptive reuse projects in the Northbank and completely turn all of downtown around within a fraction of the time, than funneling that type of money into any single site. History has proven this over and over again all over the country. Especially in DT Jax. This jail stuff is dream. Spend hundreds of millions to move it and the only conversation coming is how things won't work until we figure out how to move Maxwell House. In the meantime, James Weldon Johnson Park will still be run down and surrounded by a bunch of publicly owned buildings with dead storefronts. State and Union will still be a raggedy gateway from I-95, anchored by a Shell gas station where all the social ills of poverty and addiction come to the forefront. At some point, we still need to address the basics, which tend to be much lower hanging fruit.
There's also several reasons, very systemic and generational, why property values in the Southbank/San Marco area are higher than Berkman/Cathedral District/Springfield/Eastside/old industrial district.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on May 05, 2023, 10:00:49 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2023, 09:26:24 PM
I don't believe Shad Khan is the mastermind before the idea of moving the jail and building a convention center there. Demoing the Hart Bridge and opening up access to the stadium and Metropolitan Park makes sense (if the goal is to develop around the stadium). We just screwed it up by not knocking the entire thing down.
Not saying he is the mastermind, but if he benefits, he is no fool and will act as a significant catalyst, as he did for the Hart Bridge ramp, to get it done, if anyone can. If not for Khan's "input," the Hart Bridge ramp would still be standing. That's all.
Khan and the Jags specifically pushed for the demolition of the Hart Bridge ramp. There's no Four Seasons or Lot J (yeah, it's coming back) and probably no Jags long term either, if that didn't happen. The jail is apples and oranges in comparison. The moving the jail thing is something I've heard in downtown circles for years for well over a decade.
Much of that sentiment has come from people who have relied on public money for their own personal benefit. Over the course of my time in Jax, I've come to the conclusion that "downtown revitalization" can also be a buzzword for a lot of nonsense to tap into public money and that there are those who use it as a personal ATM machine. Easily makes me have more respect for the potato farmer with a third grade education that hustles, makes money and survives without the reliance of political play and suckling the public teat.
I say all of this to say, I don't believe this has anything as much to do with the Jags and Khan as the removal of the Hart Bridge ramp in front of the stadium did. My fear is the silly belief that moving the jail should and is a top priority for downtown revitalization. That's going to end up costing taxpayers +$700 million (i.e. you still have to subsidize whatever replaces it) and another generation lost of focus, only to live through another economic cycle of tons of money spent and nothing to show for it (outside of those pocketing the public money spent).
Whatever decision is made around the jail, don't let that siphon money needed for projects and investments that really tilt the revitalization needed moving forward. Spend $700 million. Just make sure that $700 million isn't being taken away from downtown's true needs.
I understand your perspective, but the catalyst of everything mentioned is the jail. The reason the area surrounding the JAGS is so depressed is because it's separated from the DT. You can literally go in any direction.. Southbank, towards Springfield, Brooklyn, LaVilla.. all of those area's have had or are vibrant areas today in comparison to that long stretch of land near the jail. Goto any other city with a DT sports complex, I guarantee you won't find any environment like JAX. It's truly one of a kind.
https://investdtjax.com/tools-resources/development-map/
There is literally a three block by five block area of emptiness. The Southbank being nice, Brooklyn being nice today, are not random and happened because there was enough of a buffer from a jail to stir investment. All the big residential buildings on the Southbank are less than 20-25 years old. There should be no reason (other than the jail) for the Southbank being valued 50% more than the Northbank today. In standard DT's, the "central core" is the most expensive real estate in town. No fortune 500 business is setting up shop next to a jail in Jacksonville. No developer is building condos, or apartments near a jail in Jacksonville. You can see this exact trend all up & down the east coast. Baltimore has great articles on how much sheer opportunity has been wasted. The same is true here. It is decades long. It's so deep that other issues have become seemingly the "issue" when the "issue" is the lack of local interest & outside investment. But of course, not in the Southbank or Brooklyn or even in the main central core area, only in this subregion of DT. Everywhere else seems to have activity & redevelopment, except near the Jail. The Jail has city-funded projects and 5-10 year long RFP's in the hopes something changes. Because, "the numbers don't work."
Relating an infrastructure project to this is a little cheese but nonetheless I would also say a functional transit system would likely have a larger impact than removing the jail. But, we don't have a functional transit system & we have a flawed plan. So it's hard to say that it would actually be better in its current form. Why did they need to remove that ramp? I can flip the question right back. Other cities have overpass ramps in urban areas with plenty of vibrancy to come with it. Could it be due to the jail being right there? I'd also argue the "crime" with the landing probably had something to do with a jail being 3 blocks away.
At the end of the day, companies & firms are not willing to take the risk in this large swath of DT. This isn't a question, it's a fact by what exists there now. Other firms investing in the central core & sports district are thinking one of the following:
1). We should take incentives to significantly reduce our risk. And if it all works out, we will really make out.
2). We strongly believe the jail will be gone in 5-10 years time.
3). The project works, but it would be even better with the removal of the jail.
But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.
You keep asserting that crime is higher in the immediate vicinity of the jail and police station. The time has come to provide some data to back up your claim. Numbers. Not anecdotes. Not feelings of downtown, or non-downtown, residents. Numbers.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2023, 12:19:55 PM
I understand your perspective, but the catalyst of everything mentioned is the jail. The reason the area surrounding the JAGS is so depressed is because it's separated from the DT. You can literally go in any direction.. Southbank, towards Springfield, Brooklyn, LaVilla.. all of those area's have had or are vibrant areas today in comparison to that long stretch of land near the jail. Goto any other city with a DT sports complex, I guarantee you won't find any environment like JAX. It's truly one of a kind.
https://investdtjax.com/tools-resources/development-map/
There is literally a three block by five block area of emptiness. The Southbank being nice, Brooklyn being nice today, are not random and happened because there was enough of a buffer from a jail to stir investment. All the big residential buildings on the Southbank are less than 20-25 years old. There should be no reason (other than the jail) for the Southbank being valued 50% more than the Northbank today. In standard DT's, the "central core" is the most expensive real estate in town. No fortune 500 business is setting up shop next to a jail in Jacksonville. No developer is building condos, or apartments near a jail in Jacksonville. You can see this exact trend all up & down the east coast. Baltimore has great articles on how much sheer opportunity has been wasted. The same is true here. It is decades long. It's so deep that other issues have become seemingly the "issue" when the "issue" is the lack of local interest & outside investment. But of course, not in the Southbank or Brooklyn or even in the main central core area, only in this subregion of DT. Everywhere else seems to have activity & redevelopment, except near the Jail. The Jail has city-funded projects and 5-10 year long RFP's in the hopes something changes. Because, "the numbers don't work."
Relating an infrastructure project to this is a little cheese but nonetheless I would also say a functional transit system would likely have a larger impact than removing the jail. But, we don't have a functional transit system & we have a flawed plan. So it's hard to say that it would actually be better in its current form. Why did they need to remove that ramp? I can flip the question right back. Other cities have overpass ramps in urban areas with plenty of vibrancy to come with it. Could it be due to the jail being right there? I'd also argue the "crime" with the landing probably had something to do with a jail being 3 blocks away.
At the end of the day, companies & firms are not willing to take the risk in this large swath of DT. This isn't a question, it's a fact by what exists there now. Other firms investing in the central core & sports district are thinking one of the following:
1). We should take incentives to significantly reduce our risk. And if it all works out, we will really make out.
2). We strongly believe the jail will be gone in 5-10 years time.
3). The project works, but it would be even better with the removal of the jail.
But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.
There are empty lots all over the Northbank, Southbank, Lavilla, and Brooklyn... why not focus on developing those areas instead?
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2023, 12:19:55 PM
I understand your perspective, but the catalyst of everything mentioned is the jail. The reason the area surrounding the JAGS is so depressed is because it's separated from the DT.
I'm only coming at this from the perspective of downtown revitalization. Not investing to fill gaps between downtown and other neighborhoods (yes, the Sports District is a completely different neighborhood historically).
QuoteYou can literally go in any direction.. Southbank, towards Springfield, Brooklyn, LaVilla.. all of those area's have had or are vibrant areas today in comparison to that long stretch of land near the jail. Goto any other city with a DT sports complex, I guarantee you won't find any environment like JAX. It's truly one of a kind.
It is truly one of a kind. I can't think of many urban sports districts with so much surface parking and underutilized vacant lots. However, there's a reason for this. We ripped apart redlined urban neighborhood to create it. Over time, we need to infill what was destroyed. As we infill, there are things we can apply from cities as small as Green Bay, to those as large as San Francisco. Infill of so much moonscape won't happen overnight. We should definitely support it but ensure that it does not become the primary focus of downtown revitalization, at the expense of revitalization of the actual downtown core itself.
QuoteThere is literally a three block by five block area of emptiness. The Southbank being nice, Brooklyn being nice today, are not random and happened because there was enough of a buffer from a jail to stir investment.
Any idea why infill development continues to sprout up around Broward County Jail? It has great waterfront frontage along the New River, there's a nice urban Publix across the street and its neighbors are some of the tallest luxury condos and apartment towers built in a Florida CBD (excluding Downtown Miami).
Now back to East Bay Street. Of course there is a stretch of emptiness. We had shipyard that consumed that entire stretch since the civil war. We also took out a few blocks of warehouses to build the jail. Thank god for Maxwell House still surviving, paying good wages and contributing to the tax base (and we have people who want that gone for condos, lol). We should not overlook and excuse our mistakes by blaming the jail's location. COJ has owned the shipyards for 20 years and done nothing with it. Its okay to admit that we have pooped the bed with tax money on East Bay Street. We'll be better off moving forward by learning from our mistakes.
QuoteAll the big residential buildings on the Southbank are less than 20-25 years old. There should be no reason (other than the jail) for the Southbank being valued 50% more than the Northbank today.
This ignores the legacy of redlining on the Northbank, the presence of San Marco and the fact that East Bay Street has historically been an industrial district. It also ignores the reality that the Broward County Jail has not stopped development in Fort Lauderdale. I'm not claiming the Duval County Jail is the Taj Mahal, but it isn't the reason Jacksonville has struggled to revitalize downtown. Urban history, development and redevelopment is way more complex than a single issue or site.
QuoteIn standard DT's, the "central core" is the most expensive real estate in town. No fortune 500 business is setting up shop next to a jail in Jacksonville. No developer is building condos, or apartments near a jail in Jacksonville. You can see this exact trend all up & down the east coast. Baltimore has great articles on how much sheer opportunity has been wasted. The same is true here. It is decades long. It's so deep that other issues have become seemingly the "issue" when the "issue" is the lack of local interest & outside investment. But of course, not in the Southbank or Brooklyn or even in the main central core area, only in this subregion of DT. Everywhere else seems to have activity & redevelopment, except near the Jail. The Jail has city-funded projects and 5-10 year long RFP's in the hopes something changes. Because, "the numbers don't work."
Developers are building condo towers across the street from the Broward County Jail. However, I don't understand why the jail is such of a focus. The actual downtown core could use a large infusion of public dollars. From the Landing's grave and James Weldon Johnson Park to the Laura Trio and activating vacant properties and storefronts. If we have $400 to $700 million in public money to invest, dumping that type of capital into the actual core would completely turn it around in less than five years.
QuoteRelating an infrastructure project to this is a little cheese but nonetheless I would also say a functional transit system would likely have a larger impact than removing the jail. But, we don't have a functional transit system & we have a flawed plan. So it's hard to say that it would actually be better in its current form.
Planning downtown revitalization around moving the jail is just as flawed as JTA's U2C plan.
QuoteWhy did they need to remove that ramp? I can flip the question right back. Other cities have overpass ramps in urban areas with plenty of vibrancy to come with it. Could it be due to the jail being right there? I'd also argue the "crime" with the landing probably had something to do with a jail being 3 blocks away.
How does this theory hold up with the Broward County Jail in the heart of Downtown Ft. Lauderdale?
QuoteAt the end of the day, companies & firms are not willing to take the risk in this large swath of DT. This isn't a question, it's a fact by what exists there now.
Why is the jail the focus? Perhaps that $400 million to move the jail would be better off spent being divided up to assist multiple deals in the core of downtown.
At the downtown library today, there was a LitChat with Tim Gilmore interviewing Wayne Wood to support Wayne's updated Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage. One of the points Wayne made was that the Laura Trio must be saved, and supported the recent increase in the developer's ask for city funds.
^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.
Broward County jail is not apples to apples. Hence why I brought up Baltimore. Broward County Jail is not in the central district, nor does it disprove most of what I said. Ft. Lauderdale also has prices that are 200-300% of that in Jacksonville. Baltimore is actually comparable due to the property values of city, size of the city, and the type of city it is.
Broward County jail has a price effect of almost a 40-50% depression compared to properties literally less than 0.25 miles away across the River. If anything, that example only adds to my argument. Also take a look around the Jail, other than a Publix and a subway, its a franchise-less area of DT Ft Lauderdale. That's nuts if you think about it.
It will only be a matter of time, before that site is sold, and they clean up that entire area. Same is true for Jax. Same is true for Baltimore. Really.. look up Baltimore's prison and the news about relocating that prison has been around for 20 years.
Same with JAX actually, and the talking points I hear today are echoed in this JAX Daily article from 2002.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2002/oct/16/future-jail-its-debatable/
For a prison built in 1991, after 16 years of planning.. for it to have this level of criticism 11 years later is not a coincidence.
I digress, but this isn't a talking point and it should never be treated as such. It's a dis-service to the dozens of projects nearby and the billions of cumulative funds that have been poured into this area leaving half the city on septic with no sidewalks. And "supporting" projects that frankly are robbing the taxpayers of Jacksonville. The trio included.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2023, 05:47:28 PM
^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.
The jail being an empty lot would ironically increase the property values of everything nearby. Can't say that about any other property in town.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 07, 2023, 09:32:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2023, 05:47:28 PM
^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.
The jail being an empty lot would ironically increase the property values of everything nearby. Can't say that about any other property in town.
The 5 homeless shelters in Downtown are in the same category. It's the collective impact that the jail and shelters have had on the Northbank which have driven down values vs the Southbank. Definitely not a coincidence all are one side of the river, zero are on the other side.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 06, 2023, 12:49:32 PM
You keep asserting that crime is higher in the immediate vicinity of the jail and police station. The time has come to provide some data to back up your claim. Numbers. Not anecdotes. Not feelings of downtown, or non-downtown, residents. Numbers.
https://www.crimemapping.com/map/fl/jacksonville
Look at any date range, you will find a concentration of reported crime within 2 blocks of the jail.
Quote from: iMarvin on May 06, 2023, 01:14:46 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2023, 12:19:55 PM
I understand your perspective, but the catalyst of everything mentioned is the jail. The reason the area surrounding the JAGS is so depressed is because it's separated from the DT. You can literally go in any direction.. Southbank, towards Springfield, Brooklyn, LaVilla.. all of those area's have had or are vibrant areas today in comparison to that long stretch of land near the jail. Goto any other city with a DT sports complex, I guarantee you won't find any environment like JAX. It's truly one of a kind.
https://investdtjax.com/tools-resources/development-map/
There is literally a three block by five block area of emptiness. The Southbank being nice, Brooklyn being nice today, are not random and happened because there was enough of a buffer from a jail to stir investment. All the big residential buildings on the Southbank are less than 20-25 years old. There should be no reason (other than the jail) for the Southbank being valued 50% more than the Northbank today. In standard DT's, the "central core" is the most expensive real estate in town. No fortune 500 business is setting up shop next to a jail in Jacksonville. No developer is building condos, or apartments near a jail in Jacksonville. You can see this exact trend all up & down the east coast. Baltimore has great articles on how much sheer opportunity has been wasted. The same is true here. It is decades long. It's so deep that other issues have become seemingly the "issue" when the "issue" is the lack of local interest & outside investment. But of course, not in the Southbank or Brooklyn or even in the main central core area, only in this subregion of DT. Everywhere else seems to have activity & redevelopment, except near the Jail. The Jail has city-funded projects and 5-10 year long RFP's in the hopes something changes. Because, "the numbers don't work."
Relating an infrastructure project to this is a little cheese but nonetheless I would also say a functional transit system would likely have a larger impact than removing the jail. But, we don't have a functional transit system & we have a flawed plan. So it's hard to say that it would actually be better in its current form. Why did they need to remove that ramp? I can flip the question right back. Other cities have overpass ramps in urban areas with plenty of vibrancy to come with it. Could it be due to the jail being right there? I'd also argue the "crime" with the landing probably had something to do with a jail being 3 blocks away.
At the end of the day, companies & firms are not willing to take the risk in this large swath of DT. This isn't a question, it's a fact by what exists there now. Other firms investing in the central core & sports district are thinking one of the following:
1). We should take incentives to significantly reduce our risk. And if it all works out, we will really make out.
2). We strongly believe the jail will be gone in 5-10 years time.
3). The project works, but it would be even better with the removal of the jail.
But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.
There are empty lots all over the Northbank, Southbank, Lavilla, and Brooklyn... why not focus on developing those areas instead?
They are either privately owned, or lack the economic viability to build.
Quote from: fsu813 on May 07, 2023, 09:38:41 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 07, 2023, 09:32:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2023, 05:47:28 PM
^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.
The jail being an empty lot would ironically increase the property values of everything nearby. Can't say that about any other property in town.
The 5 homeless shelters in Downtown are in the same category. It's the collective impact that the jail and shelters have had on the Northbank which have driven down values vs the Southbank. Definitely not a coincidence all are one side of the river, zero are on the other side.
Exactly. Bail bond businesses too. The effect is almost generational at this point.
QuoteBroward County jail is not apples to apples. Hence why I brought up Baltimore. Broward County Jail is not in the central district, nor does it disprove most of what I said.
I'm specifically talking about this Broward County Jail. The location is identified with a red star.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-GSzMjZR/0/0a45679f/X2/FTL%20DDA%20Boundary%20Map-Jail-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-KM2qxtT/0/b86ec80f/X2/FTL%20DDA%20Boundary%20Map-Jail1-X2.jpg)
QuoteBroward County jail has a price effect of almost a 40-50% depression compared to properties literally less than 0.25 miles away across the River. If anything, that example only adds to my argument. Also take a look around the Jail, other than a Publix and a subway, its a franchise-less area of DT Ft Lauderdale. That's nuts if you think about it.
I was never debating price effects of property values around a jail and contaminated industrial district verses a place that has economically benefited for privileged public policy and investment for more than a century.
I'm seriously questioning the need to spend a minimum of $400 million in public money (in the name of downtown revitalization) as a sound revitalization strategy or top revitalization priority. My basic point is that if we have $400 to $700 million in tax money to spend in the name of downtown revitalization, it's better spent elsewhere. Fort Lauderdale has proven this. That downtown has dramatically changed for the better, in spite of the jail nearly being in the middle of it.
Baltimore's jail isn't a good apples to apples comparison. That city has continuously lost population for more than 70 years. Nevertheless, the metropolitan area is significantly larger and it is still significantly denser. The neighborhoods to the northeast and northwest of downtown Baltimore would scare the bejesus out of Jax folk and downtown advocates that believe the jail is a major reason for downtown not being vibrant. There's a lot of stuff going on in and around urban Baltimore economically that Jax luckily does not have to deal with. The best thing we can learn from that city is the benefit of clustering, complementing uses within a compact setting. The Inner Harbor is a great example of that. Unfortunately, it's basically the opposite of what we continue to attempt to do (excluding the area NW of city hall).
QuoteI digress, but this isn't a talking point and it should never be treated as such. It's a dis-service to the dozens of projects nearby and the billions of cumulative funds that have been poured into this area leaving half the city on septic with no sidewalks.
I've only questioned this potential jail expenditure, as a downtown revitalization priority. You've just opened up another can of worms with this post. Yes, if we have $400 million to $700 million to move a structurally sound facility that was built in 1991, is that not a dis-service to residents throughout the city where basic infrastructure and services are still lacking?
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 07, 2023, 09:32:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2023, 05:47:28 PM
^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.
The jail being an empty lot would ironically increase the property values of everything nearby. Can't say that about any other property in town.
Tell this to the resident in an area of town like Northwest Jax, that still lacks infrastructure promised prior to consolidation. We'd rather spend $400 million (their tax money) on one site, to ironically increase the property values of the blocks surrounding it (for the development community to benefit), rather than fund sidewalks, light streets, fix drainage, septic, etc. Most would probably say that our priorities are completely out of wack.
Quote from: fsu813 on May 07, 2023, 09:38:41 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 07, 2023, 09:32:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2023, 05:47:28 PM
^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.
The jail being an empty lot would ironically increase the property values of everything nearby. Can't say that about any other property in town.
The 5 homeless shelters in Downtown are in the same category. It's the collective impact that the jail and shelters have had on the Northbank which have driven down values vs the Southbank. Definitely not a coincidence all are one side of the river, zero are on the other side.
We can jump in systemic discriminatory policy in this town, if we'd like. I'm well versed in its history and totally understand how that has impacted property values. However, I'm really failing to see why this (spending $400 million to move the jail) should be considered a top downtown revitalization strategy. We're not the only community in the country with homeless shelters, jails, etc. located in or near the central business district. These aren't the core reasons that Downtown Jax is not vibrant. The first thing we can start with is the 4th Floor of city hall.
If we in basic agree that the Berkman is price depressed by about 40% to be safe in this estimate... and that central districts are "supposed" to be valued higher than the outskirts of DT, as supported by your map.
There are 209 condo units with 20 townhomes. The condos sell for $300k-$450k for the 1 & 2 bedroom units which are the majority of the building. For simplicity, I won't factor in the PH units.
So 209 units, with an easy $150k bump to the valuation per unit. Lets say the townhomes only modestly increase maybe $200k in value.
That's $33-34M in total value in today's dollars. Annually, thats $600k in property taxes today. So take that over 20 years. (For simplicity, I won't factor in appreciation or inflation, although the inflation has outpaced appreciation at this site). We come to a whopping $12M in lost tax revenue at one site for 20 years. That's being conservative about the numbers too. The Berkman has actually lost value in the time since it has opened, even though the market has almost doubled in other markets since.
Now take that across several parcels, and multiply it over 20 years. That annual tax number could finance a facility easily..
A new jail won't cost $700M in flat out cash. There are obvious ways for the city to capitalize on selling 10 acres of prime DT real estate, with the city also happening to be the largest beneficiary of all the adjacent land raising in value since they own all of it.
So, obtain a capital stack from the sale, and model out the increased tax revenue that WILL be produced from the move. It's not a hypothetical, like a lot of other plunged money DT.
--
I'd flip the script right back and say.. Are you comfortable with being ripped off by the trio package? Is that the right thing to do for the people of JAX? What's the auxiliary benefit of the Trio package? Oh, it is literally negative. You can't even place a number on the negative aspects that the Jail brings. Again, check the crime map, I'm not talking about my feelings, just cold hard reporting figures. What monetary value would you place on the negative social climate that the jail has brought?
--
And Baltimore is an extremely accurate comparison. DT JAX has had population decline for probably a comparable amount of time. Want to know whats on the other side of the Baltimore complex? Johns Hopkins.. a top 10 hospital in the country and a top 20 university in the country. We have a one of the only billion dollar businesses in JAX as ours. I'd argue that's way more comparable than the Ft. Lauderdale example with nothing of substance on the other side of it other than other county/city uses. Ft. Lauderdale also being a wealthy market, unlike DT Jax & Baltimore.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 07, 2023, 10:17:08 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 07, 2023, 09:32:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2023, 05:47:28 PM
^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.
The jail being an empty lot would ironically increase the property values of everything nearby. Can't say that about any other property in town.
Tell this to the resident in an area of town like Northwest Jax, that still lacks infrastructure promised prior to consolidation. We'd rather spend $400 million (their tax money) on one site, to ironically increase the property values of the blocks surrounding it (for the development community to benefit), rather than fund sidewalks, light streets, fix drainage, septic, etc. Most would probably say that our priorities are completely out of wack.
A very valid point.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 07, 2023, 11:19:34 AM
If we in basic agree that the Berkman is price depressed by about 40% to be safe in this estimate... and that central districts are "supposed" to be valued higher than the outskirts of DT, as supported by your map.
There are 209 condo units with 20 townhomes. The condos sell for $300k-$450k for the 1 & 2 bedroom units which are the majority of the building. For simplicity, I won't factor in the PH units.
So 209 units, with an easy $150k bump to the valuation per unit. Lets say the townhomes only modestly increase maybe $200k in value.
That's $33-34M in total value in today's dollars. Annually, thats $600k in property taxes today. So take that over 20 years. (For simplicity, I won't factor in appreciation or inflation, although the inflation has outpaced appreciation at this site). We come to a whopping $12M in lost tax revenue at one site for 20 years. That's being conservative about the numbers too. The Berkman has actually lost value in the time since it has opened, even though the market has almost doubled in other markets since.
Now take that across several parcels, and multiply it over 20 years. That annual tax number could finance a facility easily..
The Berkman is on the edge of the historic central business district. It's in an abandoned maritime industrial district. I don't view the Berkman or its property values as a major downtown revitalization priority. I'm failing to see why we need to spend a considerable sum of money on the jail to increase the Berkman's values over a million other pressing needs throughout the city.
QuoteA new jail won't cost $700M in flat out cash. There are obvious ways for the city to capitalize on selling 10 acres of prime DT real estate, with the city also happening to be the largest beneficiary of all the adjacent land raising in value since they own all of it.
So, obtain a capital stack from the sale, and model out the increased tax revenue that WILL be produced from the move. It's not a hypothetical, like a lot of other plunged money DT.
Same strategy with LaVilla, The Landing, City Hall Annex, the old Duval County Courthouse, etc. We've been there, done that, and still have the vacant lots and quiet downtown to show for the millions invested to clear out places decades ago. What's wrong with investing in strategies we know that have worked for countless of the other communities across the country.
QuoteI'd flip the script right back and say.. Are you comfortable with being ripped off by the trio package? Is that the right thing to do for the people of JAX? What's the auxiliary benefit of the Trio package? Oh, it is literally negative.
I rather not get ripped off on either the Trio or moving the jail prematurely.
QuoteYou can't even place a number on the negative aspects that the Jail brings. Again, check the crime map, I'm not talking about my feelings, just cold hard reporting figures. What monetary value would you place on the negative social climate that the jail has brought?
Can you post a link to the crime map?
QuoteAnd Baltimore is an extremely accurate comparison. DT JAX has had population decline for probably a comparable amount of time. Want to know whats on the other side of the Baltimore complex? Johns Hopkins.. a top 10 hospital in the country and a top 20 university in the country.
We have a one of the only billion dollar businesses in JAX as ours. I'd argue that's way more comparable than the Ft. Lauderdale example with nothing of substance on the other side of it other than other county/city uses. Ft. Lauderdale also being a wealthy market, unlike DT Jax & Baltimore.
You ever walk the streets or through the housing projects around Johns Hopkins? Do you remember what that was like during the height of the crack cocaine epidemic? I do. Do you know the history of those neighborhoods? How does that compare with East Bay's development and social pattern? That place is different animal altogether.
The Berkman is an amazing comparison, due to it being the location of the old jail, and for it being an almost 1:1 product compared to those units in the Peninsula. In my job, these types of 1:1 comparisons are extremely hard to come by in such an immediate area. The value of the Berkman is not something to fix, rather it is the result of failed economic policy.
--
All of those former sites pale in comparison to the negative effects of a DT jail. The reasoning there is a sunk cost fallacy.. "because we already did this, we shouldn't do this." In reality, a lot of those other sites should not have been demolished, in lieu of the jail.
--
Posted it prior but here it is again. (https://www.jaxsheriff.org/Resources/crime-mapping.aspx)
--
My only point in brining up Baltimore is that it is pretty similar to Jacksonville, in terms of the actual DT city dynamic. Obviously differences exist, however Baltimore is a historic port city, just like JAX. There are a ton of similarities. One of them being, the big question of what would have happened to the entire DT region without a DT jail? Likely the development pattern between DT & the prison complex wouldn't be as bad as it is today.
--
Here are some links:
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollective/if-investing-move-baltimore-s-downtown-prison/218506/
https://ggwash.org/view/33515/to-revive-downtown-baltimore-get-rid-of-its-downtown-jail
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/10/16/22643149/why-utah-moved-its-prison-again-prime-real-estate-about-to-be-set-free-draper-mayor-corner-canyon
(Paid Articles on Ft. Lauderdale)
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2019/10/25/time-to-free-up-prime-waterfront-spot-now-occupied-by-jail-experts-say/
All of these different metro's having similar "talking points" to me isn't a coincidence and there are several people much more on it than me that could explain the full breath of effects better than I could. Nonetheless, I maintain this isn't a BS conversation and its worth the debate. This is one item I will support Davis on.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2023, 08:11:06 AM
The Berkman is an amazing comparison, due to it being the location of the old jail, and for it being an almost 1:1 product compared to those units in the Peninsula. In my job, these types of 1:1 comparisons are extremely hard to come by in such an immediate area. The value of the Berkman is not something to fix, rather it is the result of failed economic policy.
--
All of those former sites pale in comparison to the negative effects of a DT jail. The reasoning there is a sunk cost fallacy.. "because we already did this, we shouldn't do this." In reality, a lot of those other sites should not have been demolished, in lieu of the jail.
--
Posted it prior but here it is again. (https://www.jaxsheriff.org/Resources/crime-mapping.aspx)
--
My only point in brining up Baltimore is that it is pretty similar to Jacksonville, in terms of the actual DT city dynamic. Obviously differences exist, however Baltimore is a historic port city, just like JAX. There are a ton of similarities. One of them being, the big question of what would have happened to the entire DT region without a DT jail? Likely the development pattern between DT & the prison complex wouldn't be as bad as it is today.
--
Here are some links:
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollective/if-investing-move-baltimore-s-downtown-prison/218506/
https://ggwash.org/view/33515/to-revive-downtown-baltimore-get-rid-of-its-downtown-jail
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/10/16/22643149/why-utah-moved-its-prison-again-prime-real-estate-about-to-be-set-free-draper-mayor-corner-canyon
(Paid Articles on Ft. Lauderdale)
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2019/10/25/time-to-free-up-prime-waterfront-spot-now-occupied-by-jail-experts-say/
All of these different metro's having similar "talking points" to me isn't a coincidence and there are several people much more on it than me that could explain the full breath of effects better than I could. Nonetheless, I maintain this isn't a BS conversation and its worth the debate. This is one item I will support Davis on.
From 4-10-23 to 5-7-23, more than 40% of all central core crime was located on the exact block of the Jail. (24 out of 55 reported crimes). That tells the story much better than I could.
Or from 2-7-23 to 5-7-23, more than 40%, almost 50%.. (85 out of 173 reported crimes).
So I think I have overcome any burden of proof.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2023, 08:58:11 AM
Posted it prior but here it is again. (https://www.jaxsheriff.org/Resources/crime-mapping.aspx)
Unless I'm reading the linked map wrong, they are also reporting incidents inside the jail and JSO's building.
After all this, I'm still failing to see why moving the jail should be a higher priority than other downtown revitalization needs and living up to the promises made to other neighborhoods to provide basic services.
It groups those in, but there are also dozens & dozens of crimes that are not happening in the jail as well. And I'm extremely confident there are crimes elsewhere downtown that can be contributed to releases from the jail. Is there absolutely nothing in all those links that heavily correlates with what were seeing here in JAX? I've yet to hear one compelling argument in my counter, with the one exception being the actual state of the prison might not needing immediate replacement. Even better to me, create a plan to move it by X date. Sorry but your side of the argument has really not substantiated any economic or social resources that contribute to yall's points.
Again, what price do you put on the thousand of excess crimes that have occurred over 20 years that didn't need to occur? Or are you claiming the crime rate in a hyper local area here vs the rural westside/northside would be the same from one of the largest DT jails in the entire country? Which part am I missing..
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2023, 08:11:06 AM
My only point in brining up Baltimore is that it is pretty similar to Jacksonville, in terms of the actual DT city dynamic. Obviously differences exist, however Baltimore is a historic port city, just like JAX. There are a ton of similarities. One of them being, the big question of what would have happened to the entire DT region without a DT jail? Likely the development pattern between DT & the prison complex wouldn't be as bad as it is today.
Baltimore's jail has been in that location since the early 19th century. There are also thousands of public housing units and other correctional facilities in the immediate vicinity. We'll have to agree to disagree on the commonalities between the placement of Baltimore's correctional facilities in comparison with the 32-year-old Duval County Jail.
QuoteHere are some links:
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollective/if-investing-move-baltimore-s-downtown-prison/218506/
https://ggwash.org/view/33515/to-revive-downtown-baltimore-get-rid-of-its-downtown-jail
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/10/16/22643149/why-utah-moved-its-prison-again-prime-real-estate-about-to-be-set-free-draper-mayor-corner-canyon
(Paid Articles on Ft. Lauderdale)
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2019/10/25/time-to-free-up-prime-waterfront-spot-now-occupied-by-jail-experts-say/
All of these different metro's having similar "talking points" to me isn't a coincidence and there are several people much more on it than me that could explain the full breath of effects better than I could. Nonetheless, I maintain this isn't a BS conversation and its worth the debate. This is one item I will support Davis on.
These other metros have invested decades into hundreds of other initiatives to revitalize their core areas already. We can't even invest $5 million in cleaning up James Weldon Johnson Park or two-way a single street. We're having a premature discussion around the jail. Take that cash and go clean up Hogans Creek. That's an example of a public project that will cost hundreds of millions less, benefit the greater public, several neighborhoods and also create a lot more opportunities for the development community.
My main point, is we're better off prioritizing addressing our basic necessities we've long ignored first, and revisiting this jail move a decade or two from now.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2023, 09:32:40 AM
It groups those in, but there are also dozens & dozens of crimes that are not happening in the jail as well. And I'm extremely confident there are crimes elsewhere downtown that can be contributed to releases from the jail. Is there absolutely nothing in all those links that heavily correlates with what were seeing here in JAX? I've yet to hear one compelling argument in my counter, with the one exception being the actual state of the prison might not needing immediate replacement. Even better to me, create a plan to move it by X date. Sorry but your side of the argument has really not substantiated any economic or social resources that contribute to yall's points.
Again, what price do you put on the thousand of excess crimes that have occurred over 20 years that didn't need to occur? Or are you claiming the crime rate in a hyper local area here vs the rural westside/northside would be the same from one of the largest DT jails in the entire country? Which part am I missing..
I believe the point you're missing is that there are several people who believe moving the jail now should not be the top priority for downtown's revitalization.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2023, 08:11:06 AM
The Berkman is an amazing comparison, due to it being the location of the old jail, and for it being an almost 1:1 product compared to those units in the Peninsula. In my job, these types of 1:1 comparisons are extremely hard to come by in such an immediate area. The value of the Berkman is not something to fix, rather it is the result of failed economic policy.
Even without the jail, Berkman is not a comp for the Peninsula. If you've spent enough time in the buildings you'd know this. San Marco Place is a better comp for Berkman.
Berkman and the Peninsula aren't really great comps. The Berkman was developed as apartments four years before the Peninsula was built as high end condos. One has high ceilings, tall windows etc. and one is a condo conversion with small windows, dated common areas etc. Location plays a role in value discrepancies, but one product is just plainly superior to the other. Late night noise from the elbow and the moonscape of contaminated shipyards to the East are bigger drags on Berkman value than the jail.
Was the Berkman not the site of the older, smaller, jail? And pretty sure there has been one jail in Jacksonville's past at this location or within 1-2 blocks of it for several decades before this one. So, saying 3x years is a little inaccurate. Also, most commercial buildings are designed for 30-40 year life cycles. So, not really that wild to say one is "coming soon" in the next 10 years.
I understand there are some differences between the two, but that does not justify the immense pricing difference. I could counter right back and say the Berkman has more amenities.. And slightly larger units. Also there's more in common with them than not. And AGAIN ITS IN THE CENTRAL CORE. What is so hard to understand in that 95% of other US cities have THE most valuable real estate is in their Central Core? Manhattan vs. Brooklyn is the most glaringly obvious example of the pattern. Literally you have to try and find a counter example.
At this point, nothing will change y'all's mind about it. Keep poking holes in what I say instead of providing any value to the conversation. So I'm done discussing it.
Still have yet to see any links that support having massive Downtown jails.
Still have yet to provide a monetary figure on thousands of violent crimes that have occurred DT that didn't need to.
Still have yet to disprove basic economics as well as basic urban planning principals.
Incredible to me really. I guess everything I learned with my degree is meaningless here in Jacksonville.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2023, 12:19:55 PM
But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.
The detention center at 7th & Arch Streets in Center City Philadelphia would suggest otherwise - that's just one example....there are many more in downtowns around the country
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2023, 11:15:10 AM
Still have yet to see any links that support having massive Downtown jails.
Still have yet to provide a monetary figure on thousands of violent crimes that have occurred DT that didn't need to.
I'm simply not understanding the infatuation with the jail and Berkman, and why spending a minimum of $400 million to relocate it should be the high downtown revitalization strategy. If the sentiment is there will be no revitalization in downtown, as long as the jail is there, I don't agree. If saying this is the best use of spending $400 million in public money, then I don't agree. I could care less about Berkman's values compared to the Peninsula.
QuoteStill have yet to disprove basic economics as well as basic urban planning principals.
I do understand basic urban planning principals. Just not how moving the jail outweighs them.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 08, 2023, 12:32:28 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2023, 12:19:55 PM
But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.
The detention center at 7th & Arch Streets in Center City Philadelphia would suggest otherwise - that's just one example....there are many more in downtowns around the country
Well actually, you just further proved my point. I just looked it up, had no background on the site. Go ahead and search for food around the site. There's a 2-3 block buffer with a dive bar or two being the only exception. Try to find a single Fortune 500 business within 5 blocks. You won't. The site is also located in a city services district, further supporting my claim of the "buffer" that does exist to jails. There are adjacent surface lots... Oh & look, a university literally right next door, I'm sure that Temple has had no increased crime due to the proximity of a jail.
You know, there's a jail in Manhattan too... You would be shocked to find out that they happen to be located in lower valued neighborhoods. Almost like a jail wouldn't go over too well in Tribeca, FIDI or the UES. I wonder why.
See here in Jacksonville, we like to put our jail right smack dab in the only night life district we have DT as well as the highest potential earning district in all of JAX proper. Do any of y'all even go out there? I do. It's not as rosy and fun to be around as you may think. Just like I'm sure the students at Temple feel a little uncomfortable being around a jail. (Accounts from actual Temple students).
Quote from: thelakelander on May 08, 2023, 01:10:50 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2023, 11:15:10 AM
Still have yet to see any links that support having massive Downtown jails.
Still have yet to provide a monetary figure on thousands of violent crimes that have occurred DT that didn't need to.
I'm simply not understanding the infatuation with the jail and Berkman, and why spending a minimum of $400 million to relocate it should be the high downtown revitalization strategy. If the sentiment is there will be no revitalization in downtown, as long as the jail is there, I don't agree. If saying this is the best use of spending $400 million in public money, then I don't agree. I could care less about Berkman's values compared to the Peninsula.
QuoteStill have yet to disprove basic economics as well as basic urban planning principals.
I do understand basic urban planning principals. Just not how moving the jail outweighs them.
You are not reading what I'm typing then. The Berkman is the best economic indicator of the Jail's terrible effect DT. I have no infatuation with the Berkman. Luckily in Real Estate, numbers don't lie. And although we have some newly minted realtors here, I do have my license and I do actively buy/sell in this market. I think, just maybe, I know a little bit about real estate. Ignoring the Berkman demonstrates that the blinders that are on the other side of this opinion. It's literally the ONLY new building since the jail was built. So yeah lets ignore the only project from that instead of learn from it.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2023, 12:19:55 PM
You are not reading what I'm typing then. The Berkman is the best economic indicator of the Jail's terrible effect DT.
So this is the reason you believe spending a minimum of $400 million to move the jail should be the top downtown revitalization priority?
QuoteI have no infatuation with the Berkman. Luckily in Real Estate, numbers don't lie. And although we have some newly minted realtors here, I do have my license and I do actively buy/sell in this market. I think, just maybe, I know a little bit about real estate. Ignoring the Berkman demonstrates that the blinders that are on the other side of this opinion. It's literally the ONLY new building since the jail was built. So yeah lets ignore the only project from that instead of learn from it.
Are familiar with the history of Berkman II and the Shipyards site since its closure? You believe that history changes if the jail were not there? How did the jail lead to the Trilegacy debacle?
I don't think there's any disagreement here that a scenario in which we can move the jail is probably better for the surrounding area and downtown overall in some way. But that's an opinion in a vacuum.
What's being disagreed on is that spending hundreds of millions of mostly (but probably all) public dollars to move the jail as soon as possible and potentially hundreds of millions more to incentivize or construct projects to go on the resulting grass lot (because we know the city's current intention is to build a convention center there) is the best, highest, most prudent, and most efficient use of limited public funds right now. As others have said, that's money that could be used on any variety of other projects both in downtown and far beyond it. It's not a question of virtue, it's a question of priority. Sure, moving the jail would have a benefit, but is it the most important thing we need to do right now? I'm not particularly confident it is.
Always said Bay St can and should be Jax party street and removing the jail helps. Its in in totally the wrong place in 2023 with the likes of the Court having now moved and the Landing demolished.
Quote from: landfall on May 09, 2023, 02:22:27 PM
Always said Bay St can and should be Jax party street and removing the jail helps. Its in in totally the wrong place in 2023 with the likes of the Court having now moved and the Landing demolished.
If anything, the story of the courthouse move is a great example of why being careful about the prospect of moving the jail is a good idea.
We spent $350 million building a massive new courthouse complex elsewhere (while sacrificing generational investment in other important things) and millions more on the demolition of the old one because getting it off the riverfront ASAP was just
so important, plus millions
more to redo adjacent infrastructure at Coastline Drive (think Hart Ramps) only for the grass lot that was left behind to still be just that years later.
I think we're also forgetting that moving the jail and police HQ to the Northside doesn't just move inmates.
It moves hundreds upon hundreds of civilian employees who are out there right now supporting the restaurants, stores, and bars downtown.
Police officers, administrators, clerical workers, guards.
Walk into Superfood, 7-11, the Brick, Jimmy Johns, etc. at any given time during the week and you're just as likely to be in line behind a police officer as you are a businessman.
There's got to be 15 businesses offering bonds within two blocks of the prison alone.
Just like the demolition of the Landing didn't just involve removing a structure, but 30 small businesses adding vibrancy to the CBD, moving the prison doesn't happen in a vacuum either. You don't just end up with a grass lot for a decade, but with a massive chunk of the downtown workforce and numerous small supporting businesses sent packing to the Northside.
You can't even call it a zero sum game.
It's spending more than half a billion dollars to leave downtown business worse off than it was before.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 09, 2023, 03:24:46 PM
Quote from: landfall on May 09, 2023, 02:22:27 PM
Always said Bay St can and should be Jax party street and removing the jail helps. Its in in totally the wrong place in 2023 with the likes of the Court having now moved and the Landing demolished.
If anything, the story of the courthouse move is a great example of why being careful about the prospect of moving the jail is a good idea.
We spent $350 million building a massive new courthouse complex elsewhere (while sacrificing generational investment in other important things) and millions more on the demolition of the old one because getting it off the riverfront ASAP was just so important, plus millions more to redo adjacent infrastructure at Coastline Drive (think Hart Ramps) only for the grass lot that was left behind to still be just that years later.
To add to this, how much income has the city made off selling these vacant lots to developers? Most of the redevelopment projects require the land to be given away and millions more in incentives. We would have been better off just selling or giving away the vacant buildings.
My bet is you're not the only person on this site who thinks that...
Quote
Incredible to me really. I guess everything I learned with my degree is meaningless here in Jacksonville.
Here is one way to break this deadlock ...
Ask the voters to decide if they want to blow $400 million on the U2C or $400 million on moving the jail or "none of the above." ;D
I believe we voted for this in the past and JTA decided to go their own way regardless of the turnout.
The problem isn't necessarily that the jail is Downtown, it's where it is Downtown. if the jail was where the Convention Center is and vice versa we wouldn't be having this conversation. Bay St is the gateway to the sports complex and a jail being there doesn't fit in with that. The same goes for Maxwell House. Rather than something cohesive or complimentary linking the bars/restaurants to the sports complex you have a jail and a coffee factory.
I view Maxwell House an asset. Definitely don't want to lose that historic economic generator and high wage paying job creator. Also, no thanks to sticking the jail in LaVilla.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 09, 2023, 09:55:44 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2023, 12:19:55 PM
You are not reading what I'm typing then. The Berkman is the best economic indicator of the Jail's terrible effect DT.
So this is the reason you believe spending a minimum of $400 million to move the jail should be the top downtown revitalization priority?
QuoteI have no infatuation with the Berkman. Luckily in Real Estate, numbers don't lie. And although we have some newly minted realtors here, I do have my license and I do actively buy/sell in this market. I think, just maybe, I know a little bit about real estate. Ignoring the Berkman demonstrates that the blinders that are on the other side of this opinion. It's literally the ONLY new building since the jail was built. So yeah lets ignore the only project from that instead of learn from it.
Are familiar with the history of Berkman II and the Shipyards site since its closure? You believe that history changes if the jail were not there? How did the jail lead to the Trilegacy debacle?
Yes & Yes. The reason we have no Shipyards is because of the jail. In the 2002 JAX Daily article I attached, the exact same talking points are mentioned by the developer.. "Oh the jail isn't that big of a deal.." etc. Well, maybe if the site economics didn't constrain it in the way that it did, we wouldn't have had the same result as we did. Would there have been issues with the Berkman II if the jail was right there? Probably not but I can't say for certain. The economics of the site left it constrained while also being in a bad economy a few years later. Again, this is the central core we are talking about. The Central Core's economics could not support the reworking or restructuring of the Berkman II, simple as that. That's wild to me.. & when we consider the areas like the Southbank or Brooklyn, the issues of the Berkman II & the Shipyards have far more likelihood to succeed... just based on numbers.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 09, 2023, 09:58:55 AM
I don't think there's any disagreement here that a scenario in which we can move the jail is probably better for the surrounding area and downtown overall in some way. But that's an opinion in a vacuum.
What's being disagreed on is that spending hundreds of millions of mostly (but probably all) public dollars to move the jail as soon as possible and potentially hundreds of millions more to incentivize or construct projects to go on the resulting grass lot (because we know the city's current intention is to build a convention center there) is the best, highest, most prudent, and most efficient use of limited public funds right now. As others have said, that's money that could be used on any variety of other projects both in downtown and far beyond it. It's not a question of virtue, it's a question of priority. Sure, moving the jail would have a benefit, but is it the most important thing we need to do right now? I'm not particularly confident it is.
Agreed, I can completely understand that others have differing priorities. To mention the Jail relocation as a talking point, is simply lacking the understanding to know why it just isn't. I'm not claiming it needs to be moved tomorrow, but there needs to be a plan.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 09, 2023, 03:38:26 PM
I think we're also forgetting that moving the jail and police HQ to the Northside doesn't just move inmates.
It moves hundreds upon hundreds of civilian employees who are out there right now supporting the restaurants, stores, and bars downtown.
Police officers, administrators, clerical workers, guards.
Walk into Superfood, 7-11, the Brick, Jimmy Johns, etc. at any given time during the week and you're just as likely to be in line behind a police officer as you are a businessman.
There's got to be 15 businesses offering bonds within two blocks of the prison alone.
Just like the demolition of the Landing didn't just involve removing a structure, but 30 small businesses adding vibrancy to the CBD, moving the prison doesn't happen in a vacuum either. You don't just end up with a grass lot for a decade, but with a massive chunk of the downtown workforce and numerous small supporting businesses sent packing to the Northside.
You can't even call it a zero sum game.
It's spending more than half a billion dollars to leave downtown business worse off than it was before.
What about the thousands of residents/workers who do not goto our Central Core? What about the sales tax, the business tax, the property tax etc.. Those factors FAR outweigh the economic benefit of a police HQ. Like I have mentioned before, in 95% of cities in the US, the central core is the highest earning district in their respective cities. Not in JAX. We are that 5%.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 09, 2023, 04:42:13 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 09, 2023, 03:24:46 PM
Quote from: landfall on May 09, 2023, 02:22:27 PM
Always said Bay St can and should be Jax party street and removing the jail helps. Its in in totally the wrong place in 2023 with the likes of the Court having now moved and the Landing demolished.
If anything, the story of the courthouse move is a great example of why being careful about the prospect of moving the jail is a good idea.
We spent $350 million building a massive new courthouse complex elsewhere (while sacrificing generational investment in other important things) and millions more on the demolition of the old one because getting it off the riverfront ASAP was just so important, plus millions more to redo adjacent infrastructure at Coastline Drive (think Hart Ramps) only for the grass lot that was left behind to still be just that years later.
To add to this, how much income has the city made off selling these vacant lots to developers? Most of the redevelopment projects require the land to be given away and millions more in incentives. We would have been better off just selling or giving away the vacant buildings.
The largest most intense projects are on the Northbank's riverfront. Therefore, the incentives granted on the Riverfront are actually "paying for" the jail. In all actuality, these points work in tandem for the purposes of this discussion. That goes with the Bay St renovation.. some of those dollars are being spent on the jail. More & more sunk cost.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on May 09, 2023, 09:11:03 PM
Here is one way to break this deadlock ...
Ask the voters to decide if they want to blow $400 million on the U2C or $400 million on moving the jail or "none of the above." ;D
An absolute no brainer lol.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 10, 2023, 06:10:10 AM
I view Maxwell House an asset. Definitely don't want to lose that historic economic generator and high wage paying job creator. Also, no thanks to sticking the jail in LaVilla.
Agreed on the Maxwell item. Other historic factories have done well in urban DT's, Heineken comes to mind in Amsterdam bc I have done it. Maxwell house, with more activity around it, might have the ability to create a cool walking tour or something similar.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 10, 2023, 09:00:01 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 09, 2023, 09:55:44 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2023, 12:19:55 PM
You are not reading what I'm typing then. The Berkman is the best economic indicator of the Jail's terrible effect DT.
So this is the reason you believe spending a minimum of $400 million to move the jail should be the top downtown revitalization priority?
QuoteI have no infatuation with the Berkman. Luckily in Real Estate, numbers don't lie. And although we have some newly minted realtors here, I do have my license and I do actively buy/sell in this market. I think, just maybe, I know a little bit about real estate. Ignoring the Berkman demonstrates that the blinders that are on the other side of this opinion. It's literally the ONLY new building since the jail was built. So yeah lets ignore the only project from that instead of learn from it.
Are familiar with the history of Berkman II and the Shipyards site since its closure? You believe that history changes if the jail were not there? How did the jail lead to the Trilegacy debacle?
Yes & Yes. The reason we have no Shipyards is because of the jail. In the 2002 JAX Daily article I attached, the exact same talking points are mentioned by the developer.. "Oh the jail isn't that big of a deal.." etc. Well, maybe if the site economics didn't constrain it in the way that it did, we wouldn't have had the same result as we did. Would there have been issues with the Berkman II if the jail was right there? Probably not but I can't say for certain. The economics of the site left it constrained while also being in a bad economy a few years later. Again, this is the central core we are talking about. The Central Core's economics could not support the reworking or restructuring of the Berkman II, simple as that. That's wild to me.. & when we consider the areas like the Southbank or Brooklyn, the issues of the Berkman II & the Shipyards have far more likelihood to succeed... just based on numbers.
After the Shipyards closed in the 1990s, the Spence family acquired the property for a new market-rate logistics use
(remember, this was a maritime industrial district) related use if not convinced to redevelop the site by the city into mixed-use residential, office, hotel and park space. One Shipyard Place had already broken ground when playing with the money funny blew that public private partnership up.
By all means, not sexy for those wanting to see this area filled with condos, restaurants and shops, but if left alone, the property would have been producing revenue and jobs for a few decades now, instead of wasting away as a vacant lot.
LandMar was the next developer to take a stab at the site. The national economy taking a nose dive in the mid-2000s, not the jail, sent their entire real estate development business into bankruptcy.
Berkman II was well under construction when disaster happened. Shotty construction led to its collapse and years of being tied up in court. Not the jail. Since the Spence/Trilegacy debacle, the Shipyards property has been in COJ's hands. The jail hasn't been the reason COJ has put no real money into the site during that time. COJ has struggled to invest in public spaces and rid itself of city owned property all across downtown for decades. One could easily argue, that COJ is the biggest slumlord in downtown.
By no means am I arguing that the jail is the Taj Mahal or the best utilization of that particular piece of property. However, it isn't the reason no development or investment has taken place on the Shipyards property since the Berkman II collapse. COJ deserves all the blame. Nothing about the jail has stopped us from investing to build a park, extend the riverwalk, sell off and incentivize pad sites, etc. but ourselves. All of this could have occurred a decade ago and cost us way less than $400 million, if it were a larger priority of the various mayoral administrations and councils during the 2000s.
QuoteThe largest most intense projects are on the Northbank's riverfront. Therefore, the incentives granted on the Riverfront are actually "paying for" the jail. In all actuality, these points work in tandem for the purposes of this discussion. That goes with the Bay St renovation.. some of those dollars are being spent on the jail. More & more sunk cost.
Don't get too sucked up in the one-trick pony very conceptual proposals that require massive sums of public money to be remotely feasible. Hopefully, a few will happen but we should not ignore where the real tangible development projects are happening right now in Brooklyn, NoCo (I really hate using this term lol) and the Sports District. In my opinion, from a downtown revitalization strategy perspective, we should flood them with intentional adjacent investment as quick as possible to stimulate real critical mass.
Truthfully, most of what I know about the Shipyards history beyond what can be found from news articles is from you. I just don't follow or at least agree with your stance. The only reason I still feel any slight need to respond is due to your presence & reach in Jacksonville with the Jaxson. I honestly just can't accept this is a talking point, and I feel extremely confident that a model would prove the economic failure the Jail has been.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-shipyards-20-years-of-renderings/
In this very article, there is a claim made that FNF was considering an HQ in one of the earlier plans.. Think about that cumulative impact. It would make sense for them to be in the CC on prime Riverfront. Also not to mention now several independent development firms have ultimately failed at the shipyard site. Understandably 08' was different, but that doesn't account for the time period. For over 20 years nothing has happened. There really is only one reason for that. Pretty much everywhere else on the river DT has a building or a project. Except here.
Business & people have options.
What is the highest Class of rent possible for those spaces next to a jail? (There is no argument for luxury Class A space)
What % of high end buyers/renters want to live next to a jail?
What % of companies want to set up a business in a less-dense micro economy next to a jail?
What Fortune 500 business wants to be positioned near a jail?
What is the real top dollar rent or sale price for land next to a jail?
--
I can absolutely say with certainty that a Class A product is not viable in the immediate location of the jail. The Berkman's value over time essentially proves this. It has lost value.. which is an anomaly in residential real estate. The inability for multiple firms to not make a greater vision a reality immediately highlights this even more.
Also is it fair to the people of Jacksonville to accept that these land uses will never be usable for Class A space? In our Central Core? Riverfront? That concept seems absurd to me. Seemingly there have been chances, and opportunities.. all of which have come up empty handed. I could never seriously model rents or condo sales in that immediate area that command prices that are seen in other smaller coastal cities in Florida. If there was no Jail there, does $1M+ condo on the river sound that crazy? Not to me.. With the jail.. apparently so.
I'm not sucked up in anything really. What I am passionately against is thinking that all these riverfront parks and bay st projects are going to be worth what they should be with a massive jail sitting on its doorstep. There are some pretty heavy claims being made in this thread that other metro's seemingly have already addressed and solved. To say some of those public dollars in DT right now are not being paid because of the jail, is not being totally honest on the situation as a whole. The Jail also has a negative affect on a greater surrounding area, to a lesser extent.
Take the average consumer data given by the BLS, you'd only need 10,000 people spending on their daily basket items to reach an immediate sale tax of $15,000,000 from $200,000,000 in gross sales. 10,000 in a Central Core is child's play by even JAX's historic standard from my understanding.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 10, 2023, 12:28:07 PM
Truthfully, most of what I know about the Shipyards history beyond what can be found from news articles is from you. I just don't follow or at least agree with your stance. The only reason I still feel any slight need to respond is due to your presence & reach in Jacksonville with the Jaxson. I honestly just can't accept this is a talking point, and I feel extremely confident that a model would prove the economic failure the Jail has been.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-shipyards-20-years-of-renderings/
In this very article, there is a claim made that FNF was considering an HQ in one of the earlier plans.. Think about that cumulative impact. It would make sense for them to be in the CC on prime Riverfront. Also not to mention now several independent development firms have ultimately failed at the shipyard site. Understandably 08' was different, but that doesn't account for the time period. For over 20 years nothing has happened. There really is only one reason for that. Pretty much everywhere else on the river DT has a building or a project. Except here.
My one and only stance regarding the jail relocation is this. It isn't the reason that the Northbank is not successful. It's relocation should not be given a higher priority (in terms of downtown public investment) than direct reinvestment into the Northbank core (i.e. incentizing adaptive reuse, infill development, investing in public parks, streets, etc.).
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 10, 2023, 09:00:01 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 10, 2023, 06:10:10 AM
I view Maxwell House an asset. Definitely don't want to lose that historic economic generator and high wage paying job creator. Also, no thanks to sticking the jail in LaVilla.
Agreed on the Maxwell item. Other historic factories have done well in urban DT's, Heineken comes to mind in Amsterdam bc I have done it. Maxwell house, with more activity around it, might have the ability to create a cool walking tour or something similar.
Re: Maxwell House, a missed opportunity is factory tours. Unfortunately, companies have become so safety, security and liability conscious, that few remain. But, I recall for years the successful tourist draws of Anheuser Busch breweries, Hershey and Ghirardelli candies, etc. in the hearts of their cities that lived in synch with the surrounding areas.
Not necessarily in the downtown area, but as a child we toured ice cream, milk, potato chip, soft drink, bread, candy, pine sap distilling and glass making factories. Even got to visit the Kennedy Space Center to see the Apollo capsule being assembled. Today, pretty much gone the way of the dinosaurs. Can only think of wineries and distilleries as maybe still doing tours open to the public with any regularity.
^with Maxwell, Manifest, Intuition, and soon to be MOSH, Orleck, and the Fire Museum, there should absolutely be an opportunity for a multi-attraction ticket that could offer a full day of entertainment.
I miss the AB tour very much. Never had a better-tasting Budweiser than the one from their tasting room.
It was a bummer to lose the AB tour. I agree that their tasting room was the best. Does Domino Sugar allow tours at their Inner Harbor plant?
Obviously this isn't really about Davis anymore, but now Ron Salem appears to be declaring he will take the reins for this:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/06/08/moving-duval-county-jail-to-be-a-budget-priority-for-incoming-jacksonville-city-council-president/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=wjxt4
$250 million is a little less than previously stated, but I imagine that doesn't include the cost of a new police headquarters.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 08, 2023, 02:45:41 PM
Obviously this isn't really about Davis anymore, but now Ron Salem appears to be declaring he will take the reins for this:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/06/08/moving-duval-county-jail-to-be-a-budget-priority-for-incoming-jacksonville-city-council-president/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=wjxt4
$250 million is a little less than previously stated, but I imagine that doesn't include the cost of a new police headquarters.
Saw this earlier.
There's no universe where we build a new future-proof jail for $250 million.
San Jose is looking at $690 million (https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/05/16/price-of-santa-clara-countys-new-jail-soars-with-officials-blaming-it-on-delays-and-inflation/)
DC up to $750 million (https://www.dcpolicycenter.org/publications/cost-new-dc-prison/#:~:text=per%20bed%20costs.-,Operating%20costs,million%20depending%20on%20the%20capacity.)
Atlanta estimates $2 BILLION (https://www.ajc.com/news/fulton-study-new-jail-would-cost-2-billion/HDIJNS43VNAK3FINZ2AUD2XMNI/)
Kansas City is $300 million+ (https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-05-01/if-jackson-county-legislators-dont-act-today-the-new-jail-price-will-spike-by-millions)
Between relocating the jail and Police HQ, demolishing the old, and preparing the site for redevelopment, we're talking an easy $750 million.
This sounds a lot less "hair on fire" than Davis' promise to make it a first-term priority. Planning ahead and getting a good grasp on what the cost could be seems prudent. A range of $250 million to $750 million is so ambiguous as to render even high-level strategic conversations meaningless.
Maybe we could get buckets of money from the Governor if we build the new jail next to Disney World?
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 08, 2023, 03:23:10 PM
This sounds a lot less "hair on fire" than Davis' promise to make it a first-term priority. Planning ahead and getting a good grasp on what the cost could be seems prudent. A range of $250 million to $750 million is so ambiguous as to render even high-level strategic conversations meaningless.
Idea:
Cruiseships.
It worked for guests of Super Bowl XXXIX, it could work for guests of the Sheriff.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 08, 2023, 03:23:10 PM
This sounds a lot less "hair on fire" than Davis' promise to make it a first-term priority. Planning ahead and getting a good grasp on what the cost could be seems prudent. A range of $250 million to $750 million is so ambiguous as to render even high-level strategic conversations meaningless.
Its premature of them to state random numbers like $250 million when they don't even have a site selected or timeline of construction. But yeah, I don't mind the concept of planning ahead. Its pretty smart to do that. If we had done that for downtown revitalization as a whole, it would have been revitalized 20 years ago and with a lot less tax money invested.
Quote from: fsu813 on June 08, 2023, 03:45:52 PM
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 08, 2023, 03:23:10 PM
This sounds a lot less "hair on fire" than Davis' promise to make it a first-term priority. Planning ahead and getting a good grasp on what the cost could be seems prudent. A range of $250 million to $750 million is so ambiguous as to render even high-level strategic conversations meaningless.
Idea:
Cruiseships.
It worked for guests of Super Bowl XXXIX, it could work for guests of the Sheriff.
Haha! I like this idea..
I do agree that $250M seems light.. I think a Police HQ DT can be required as a part of the RFP package. So to some degree this cost can be mitigated creatively. Not to mention the sale of the site is pretty likely in the 8-figures. I don't think the JAX jail will require a $750M tag however for a few reasons. They need to build out more than up.
I'd rather see this special tax district that Khan wants, or the existing downtown fund, contribute funds towards this eventual move. I've been an advocate of a plan at least, so that other projects can also "plan" around the eventual move.
It would be really sorry to have the city invest all that $$$ in the sports district, and the central core, to leave the Jail sitting where it is. The local business environment should want to support its relocation too...
If you consider the multiple contiguous blocks occupied by City Hall, the Federal and County Courthouses, the District Attorney offices, JEA HQ's, Ed Ball City Office Building and related parking garages and vacant properties as one master "government complex", it may make sense to add a high rise jail and JSO HQ's on a block contiguous to these blocks or converted from one of their parking lots. Government buildings, being security conscious, guarantee dead street space for anyone other than those on government business so a jail likely can't do much more harm to that area in terms of development.
Add that the current jail was located at its current spot, in part, due to its proximity to the old courthouse. As such, a new one near the current courthouse would make sense too.
^ Can't imagine that happening. For whatever silly reason people seem to have decided that downtown's condition can be blamed on the jail being there, so having the new jail anywhere near downtown is almost certainly out of the question. Already it seems that the consensus is focused on exiling it to the far north of town.
Police building might make sense there though, I dunno.
By the time we get the numbers on the stadium, I don't think anyone is going to have a desire to move the jail for what it will cost.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 08, 2023, 04:23:08 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on June 08, 2023, 03:45:52 PM
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 08, 2023, 03:23:10 PM
This sounds a lot less "hair on fire" than Davis' promise to make it a first-term priority. Planning ahead and getting a good grasp on what the cost could be seems prudent. A range of $250 million to $750 million is so ambiguous as to render even high-level strategic conversations meaningless.
Idea:
Cruiseships.
It worked for guests of Super Bowl XXXIX, it could work for guests of the Sheriff.
Haha! I like this idea..
I do agree that $250M seems light.. I think a Police HQ DT can be required as a part of the RFP package. So to some degree this cost can be mitigated creatively. Not to mention the sale of the site is pretty likely in the 8-figures. I don't think the JAX jail will require a $750M tag however for a few reasons. They need to build out more than up.
I'd rather see this special tax district that Khan wants, or the existing downtown fund, contribute funds towards this eventual move. I've been an advocate of a plan at least, so that other projects can also "plan" around the eventual move.
It would be really sorry to have the city invest all that $$$ in the sports district, and the central core, to leave the Jail sitting where it is. The local business environment should want to support its relocation too...
If I'm not mistaken, it was the current Sheriff that came up with that very premature number and cost. I don't know as much as most of you in this forum know about this type subject, but I'm smart enough to know that you can't build a Jail for 250 mil; can't be done unless you build it with match sticks reinforced with steel (maybe). Land, relocation, development costs, construction costs, etc., and I could go on. Shows how much he knows. I think someone whispered in his ear, "just tell them 250 million, they'll believe it."
There's still some vacant lots in the old LaVilla area (western area) near the expressway (I-95); what are you all's opinion on building the new Jail in that area? Not close to the convention center but north of Adams and west of Davis Street between Monroe and Ashley in LaVilla.
^ After all the work Ennis has put into championing LaVilla, I would be surprised if he and others vested in that area would be thrilled with that idea 8).
If and when the jail is relocated, no matter where in the county they look at, I fully expect NIMBY pushback. That's why I thought the "government complex" was a good possibility as few would be around to object.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 08, 2023, 06:26:14 PM
By the time we get the numbers on the stadium, I don't think anyone is going to have a desire to move the jail for what it will cost.
You might be right on that.
Quote from: heights unknown on June 08, 2023, 09:40:20 PM
There's still some vacant lots in the old LaVilla area (western area) near the expressway (I-95); what are you all's opinion on building the new Jail in that area? Not close to the convention center but north of Adams and west of Davis Street between Monroe and Ashley in LaVilla.
I think placing it in LaVilla is somewhat relocating the issue. It would heavily hamper new development in the area which LaVilla desperately needs because of the high % of vacant lots/buildings there.
The transport costs of the inmates can be heavily mitigated with a small pre-trial center and a police HQ downtown. More importantly though is the fact that the economic benefit of having these parcels be tax generators will far outweigh the public cost of such transportation. If the annual cost is $5M to make it simple, the city would need to replace the site with something valued at $250M ish to compensate with just property taxes alone. On about 11 acres I think that's possible.
Not to cause a riot but there are some assumptions that can be made based upon consumer behavior as well..
1). The tax base of surrounding parcels "should" go up a LOT (maybe even $100M+)
2). The DT might actually be able to attract new business (I bet JaxChamber has 'some' issues with this item)
3). Increased sales tax revenue
All of these should be analyzed in the cost-benefit analysis. Again I don't know of any asset DT that actively devalues property around it. Maybe some people feel the Maxwell House does but I personally like the aesthetic and ode to the industrial past.
--
Hinds County (Jackson, MS) is doing this now.. expanding a really rural site with really no other viable use. Their DT has a small police HQ and detention center.
Hell no to sticking the jail in LaVilla! That would be super racist, discriminatory, shortsighted and economically foolish of Jax to stick a jail in LaVilla. May as well hang confederate flag banners down Bay Street from I-95 to TIAA Bank Field lol. LaVilla's cultural significance is one of the special things that the DT core has. We can't replicate it anywhere else but we can focus on it and maximize it. If we have that type of money to spend, there's a lot more we can do with it to make LaVilla an economic powerhouse and a national example for positive inclusive and equitable revitalization and economy development.
^I'd agree. That seems worse than the current location. If you're going to move it all of 1/2 mile, just leave it where it is.
If the jail moves it should go out in the boonies, maybe the north end of CCC surrounded by trees and bound in by highways where no one has to see it. Buy a bus and shuttle prisoners back and forth to town as needed, it's a straight shot down I-10. JTA already has a bus route that runs out there, when released they get a bus pass and can ride wherever they want in town.
I rode my bike through there yesterday, that whole area north of the jail is a hot mess. Trashed, homeless camps everywhere, not a great scene. Until the jail, Community Transition Center (aka more jail) Sulzbacher, and those ramps to a lesser extent are gone I dont see it getting better. It's a definite impediment to connecting the DT core and what's going on in the sports district.
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.
To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."
Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 09, 2023, 09:40:38 AM
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.
To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."
Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.
Playing Devil's Advocate: If you replace the Jail with a Convention Center, that would replace a lot of the people that could eat out.
With all of that said, I'm not sure this is the best Convention Center site and moving the Jail should be a "now" thing.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 09, 2023, 09:40:38 AM
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.
To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."
Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.
Here is a better way to look at this. Most urban downtown cores have job concentrations of 200-300 per acre. Jacksonville is at 22-23. Even if you exclude LaVilla's entire land mass, it is still below 50. The overall depression of companies operating DT (right next to our central core) has caused quite the effect and I am not claiming that is all the jail's fault. Now though, it is a different story and it doesn't sound like I'm alone in that thinking. 10-15 acres should net a good amount of jobs on its own.
With the jail being relocated, some auxiliary businesses would still remain due to the proximity they have to the courthouse also.. but imagine having an actually somewhat functioning DT. Even if we got the DT job concentration back up to 50-ish, that's tens of thousands of added jobs. Jax has so much vacant SF DT that is really doing nothing. Removing the jail will impact jobs downtown positively.. I don't know of any Fortune 500 business that is expanding next to jails/prisons. Right now DT is a tax net negative for the city, and with developers asking for basically 1:1 (or worse LOL) incentive packages, it really makes you wonder why they are so gung-ho with incentives and not looking at the causes for why we need these crap packages and/or have projects that can't meet underwriting requirements.
Quote from: Steve on June 09, 2023, 09:53:26 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 09, 2023, 09:40:38 AM
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.
To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."
Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.
Playing Devil's Advocate: If you replace the Jail with a Convention Center, that would replace a lot of the people that could eat out.
With all of that said, I'm not sure this is the best Convention Center site and moving the Jail should be a "now" thing.
Reverse devil's advocate says the road to hell is paved with good intentions and Jacksonville's boulevard of broken downtown dreams over the last 60 years with downtown is filled with similar of examples of if we remove ________________ from the urban core, we can add _________________. Problem is, we always remove, and then the thing fails to materialize in a reasonable timeframe. The Landing. River City Brewing. The Old Courthouse and Annex. The neighborhood of LaVilla. The historic Greyhound station. Welcome to Rockville. We're a city that's been fixing a fountain for four years.
Lack of developable land in downtown Jacksonville isn't the problem. Surplus of undeveloped land is. Just given our track record, in almost all cases, I'd favor keeping what's currently there and infilling around it, rather than continuing to play the shell game.
I do think, in a perfect world, a convention center on that property makes a lot of sense. I just wouldn't want to see anything removed until 5 minutes before the convention center is ready to break ground and all funding is in place, otherwise, it's just going to be another hole in the urban landscape for 20 years.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 09, 2023, 06:56:52 AM
Hell no to sticking the jail in LaVilla! That would be super racist, discriminatory, shortsighted and economically foolish of Jax to stick a jail in LaVilla. May as well hang confederate flag banners down Bay Street from I-95 to TIAA Bank Field lol. LaVilla's cultural significance is one of the special things that the DT core has. We can't replicate it anywhere else but we can focus on it and maximize it. If we have that type of money to spend, there's a lot more we can do with it to make LaVilla an economi.c powerhouse and a national example for positive inclusive and equitable revitalization and economy development.
LOLOL...calm down. I see your point; but IMO, as someone who grew up in Lavilla (817 West Duval Street), I view it as racist razing that entire area, blocking off Ashley like they did, etc., get my drift? So since they uprooted black history and replaced it with nothing, then I don't see any harm in putting a jail in LaVilla;to this day I see no vision that THEY HAVE for LaVilla...at all; however Lakelander, I feel you Bro. I was just wondering. IMO they should have built affordable housing in LaVilla (even if predominantly black) after razing all of the shotgun houses and two story 1900 boarding houses (in which it was needed at the time but there was virtually no plan or vision for LaVilla once that was done). Just my opinion rather than razing the history of such a rich black area without even a vision of what should go there (raze it, abandon it, vacate it and they will come).
Lol I'm not pissed. Just cutting straight to the point of why putting the jail in LaVilla is a straight non-starter. Given the history, the city would rightfully be ridiculed into shame nationally.
Regarding moving the jail, it seems like another bad, shortsighted, and inefficient idea to seriously vet without first having a real plan and funding for why and what we'd be removing it for...or for DT in general. Go out and talk to 10 different people about what they'd like to see on the jail property, Snyder Memorial, the COJ parking lots off APR, mOSH when it moves, etc. and you're likely to get ten different visions or wants. Even in this thread, some advocate selling off the land to developers and other mention a convention center, which is another couple hundred thousand public expenditure. In essence, we're still flying by the seat of our pants with all of this stuff.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 09, 2023, 11:43:53 AM
Lol I'm not pissed. Just cutting straight to the point of why putting the jail in LaVilla is a straight non-starter. Given the history, the city would rightfully be ridiculed into shame nationally.
Again, see your point. I didn't say you were pissed, just asked you to calm down. It's all good. I do see where you're going Bro. Thanks.
I'm pretty relaxed and laid back too! I'm enjoying the conversation. I just, in a relaxing manner, typed straight to the point of what would go down there.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 09, 2023, 09:40:38 AM
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.
To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."
Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.
Nobody has done or really considered that, with the impact on employment. For a long time, we tend to throw things against the wall and hope they stick with DT planning and revitalization.
None of these conversations really matter unless someone can get $2 psf rents for apartments and increase retail lease rates by a significant percentage.
That's doable in quite a few places around town, but you can also build cheaper outside of DT.
They all matter, from a quality of life perspective, even if not one large scale mixed use building gets built as a result.
I really couldn't disagree more. With the amount of city funds being directed towards DT, there has to be a viable economic outcome of it all. Adaptive reuse only goes so far. Considering our city still has the quantity of septic it does, and the lack of funding for similar infrastructure, the insanely low ROI isn't justifiable on a city scale.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 09, 2023, 04:59:41 PM
I really couldn't disagree more. With the amount of city funds being directed towards DT, there has to be a viable economic outcome of it all. Adaptive reuse only goes so far. Considering our city still has the quantity of septic it does, and the lack of funding for similar infrastructure, the insanely low ROI isn't justifiable on a city scale.
A lot of money is being thrown out, with unequal ROI as you iterated. Maybe a few residential 50 story talls will help? (LOL...I know what y'all are thinking about me). Just hope we don't go bankrupt at some point, however, I think we have some pretty smart fiscal beenies in City Hall that might ensure, if they properly use their noggin, that that doesn't happen.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 09, 2023, 12:24:40 PM
I'm pretty relaxed and laid back too! I'm enjoying the conversation. I just, in a relaxing manner, typed straight to the point of what would go down there.
Awesome Lake. Just to let you know, I've learned quite a lot from you since joining this forum in 2009; for that, thank you, and have also learned from others. My Field is Administrative and Social Service (Management), so, I've learned a lot and what I've learned does apply and correlate to my field of expertise, especially if I want to solidly move from virtual to brick and mortar in an urban setting.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 09, 2023, 04:59:41 PM
I really couldn't disagree more. With the amount of city funds being directed towards DT, there has to be a viable economic outcome of it all. Adaptive reuse only goes so far. Considering our city still has the quantity of septic it does, and the lack of funding for similar infrastructure, the insanely low ROI isn't justifiable on a city scale.
Adaptive reuse is a viable economic outcome. Quality parks, streetscapes, public spaces, etc. are viable quality of life improvements for residents. Vacant storefronts filled with businesses is viable economic development. Filling up vacant office space is economic development. These are investments that do lead to the infill development you care about. I can't think of many places that skipped these steps of public investment to reach the point you want to see.
With all of that said, we can't be foolish with our downtown decision making and expect positive change, no matter how much money is invested. The demolition of the Landing is a great example of foolish spending. Spend hundreds of millions to move the jail based on wishes of economic development would be another dumb expenditure. I'm really hopeful that we'll do better with the new administration and new people on boards and some critical COJ staff positions.
1). If the goal of the downtown revitalization efforts are to complete adaptive reuse projects & spice things up a bit, then the sheer % of funds devoted to DT is literally a crime to the rest of Jacksonville. This is because:
- Downtowns should be filled out and "used" not 30%+ vacant & parking lots (or whatever that absurd figure is)
- Jacksonville is basically the only large, growing, city DT's where pure New Construction does not pencil out (other cities deal with tear down & higher density) showing a huge lack of demand
- Jacksonville is basically last in the country on (expensive) flood infrastructure relative to the threat, has some of the most septic tanks in the country, and has some of the worst walkability scores.. in the country. Almost impressive.
2). You can't make the argument that anything less than 60-70% of DT is completely non-functional.. I challenge someone to remove the Southbank & Brooklyn from these "downtown goals" and see what the story really looks like.
- Virtually 0 private sector jobs outside of a handful of 70% occupied office towers in 60%+ of DT
- Virtually 0 retail other than basic food options accounting for a majority of downtown retail
Just ending with adaptive reuse is like running a 100m and only going 50m. New construction is what will revitalize DT. Jacksonville is not some unique market that is going to break major economic hurdles "just because" or "history." No matter how it is framed, the absolute goal of the absurd amount of funds going towards downtown is to support the eventual market for new construction. Anything less is legitimately a crime to the rest of the city.
I respect your opinion on things but the $$ here is reaching levels that I'm surprised anyone could support without the goal of supporting new construction downtown. It's the #1 economic indicator of a growing city. Goto a crap & dead downtown and it will influence people's perception on doing business there and/or visiting. We are known as the city that couldn't properly host a superbowl by many still. Our DT gets railed a lot by plp outside from Jax. That's kinda absurd when you think about it.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.
The goal of revitalization is vibrancy and a better QOL for residents. It's all encompassing and not an either or for adaptive reuse, infill development, achieving certain lease rates, etc.
Nevertheless, we're not going to get anywhere if we aren't willing to invest in ourselves and the basics. This is a core reason for downtown's struggles, despite the billions spent for revitalization since the 1960s.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 10, 2023, 09:35:30 AM
The goal of revitalization is vibrancy and a better QOL for residents. It's all encompassing and not an either or for adaptive reuse, infill development, achieving certain lease rates, etc.
I think this is where I am tripped up. If we only are able to make the economics work for adaptive reuse, or only able to make it to New Construction with insane incentives, then I think it is safe to say that the city failed its objectives, again. If Apple founded a new technology, but spent 75% of their operating funds to do so, you better hope they are selling trillions of that product otherwise we know what would happen. Jacksonville in particular has too many dead parcels.. We also know that building up city infrastructure does help the overall city's tax base. There really are some known items at play here that I guess the city is putting aside(?)
To me, the goals the DIA & City have should be to make new construction projects economically viable.. and whatever needs to be done to make that happen should.. I still haven't heard anyone explain why virtually every direction you go from our Central Core has higher real estate values and lease rates. I do have one pretty good reason tho.. aka why these talks are likely circulating again. The decade long efforts of the downtown incentives have not yielded rosy results.
Nashville Metro - 2.04M
Jacksonville Metro - 1.68M
Salt Lake City - 1.27M
From basically any list, Jacksonville is top 10 in growth. So were these cities.. The gap that has developed is ever widening.
https://nashvilledowntown.com/economic-development/development-map
https://downtownslc.org/building-downtown/development-projects
Both cities giving minimal incentives, and only for big big projects like Amazon in DT Nashville.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 12, 2023, 09:09:47 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 10, 2023, 09:35:30 AM
The goal of revitalization is vibrancy and a better QOL for residents. It's all encompassing and not an either or for adaptive reuse, infill development, achieving certain lease rates, etc.
I think this is where I am tripped up. If we only are able to make the economics work for adaptive reuse, or only able to make it to New Construction with insane incentives, then I think it is safe to say that the city failed its objectives, again. If Apple founded a new technology, but spent 75% of their operating funds to do so, you better hope they are selling trillions of that product otherwise we know what would happen.
I think you may be too far into the weeds. The economics don't necessarily work for adaptive reuse either, without an infusion of local incentives. Can't worry about Apple right now when we still need to light the streets, clean the sidewalks, upgrade parks, restore dilapidated buildings, etc. We're going to have to invest in the little boring things and incentivize complementary adaptive reuse and infill development until the economics start to work.
QuoteJacksonville in particular has too many dead parcels.. We also know that building up city infrastructure does help the overall city's tax base. There really are some known items at play here that I guess the city is putting aside(?)
Yes, we've spent billions to create all of these dead parcels in the name of new construction that still failed to materialize. We can easily turn things around however. To do so, we'll have to use our resources to cluster, complementing uses (and financial strategies) within a more compact area to speed up the revitalization process.
QuoteTo me, the goals the DIA & City have should be to make new construction projects economically viable.. and whatever needs to be done to make that happen should.. I still haven't heard anyone explain why virtually every direction you go from our Central Core has higher real estate values and lease rates.
Engulf yourself in the history of how the Northbank economically fell off the wagon and you'll have your answer. The bigger question would then be why are we continuing to try the same strategies that have already proven to be failures over the last 40 years but expecting a different outcome? To reverse the path, we have to use proven strategies that work, even when they don't sound super sexy or come with a flashy rendering.
QuoteI do have one pretty good reason tho.. aka why these talks are likely circulating again. The decade long efforts of the downtown incentives have not yielded rosy results.
Downtown has been an atm machine for the politically connected for decades. That's likely the largest reason. What really needs to be done isn't getting done (or ignored outright) because it results in less control of who financially benefits. A lot of people don't like to hear that and it could make some feel uncomfortable. But take a deep dive into the history and it becomes as clear as day.
The Apple item is to demonstrate the lack of a proper study on the opportunity costs surrounding this heavy investment. I don't care about Apple. If a private company did what the COJ is doing, the point is they would be out of biz.
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How is it that the CC hasn't been able to turn it around but they demolished almost the entirety of Brooklyn? And why is it that Brooklyn has somehow been able to turn it around? I don't think I can believe the argument that Brooklyn was somehow in a better state than the CC.
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The Jail has been one of the only consistent items on the Northbank for the last 40 years. Whoever made that decision, has caused billions in unintended damages. I understand there is more history to it all, but I don't believe this argument for the last 5-10 years. Times can change what has more meaningful impacts. Right now it is the jail and a large majority of people I talk to here say that is the #1 reason they don't go downtown. Lease rates and rental rates prove this.
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So has many other downtowns across the US. I grew up in a top 50 metro, and when we first moved there a few families owned a ton of the RE. This same story can be said elsewhere too. When bigger money comes into play, things change. Why do we see Town Center with lease rates that rival South FL and major urban areas? There are reasons for all of that. DT has been plagued by poor policy.. completely agree.. but there is more to it now. Other cities are pulling ahead like crazy while we are for some reason debating on the idea of a 2,000+ bed pre-trial facility/jail devaluing DT property. Other cities made these decisions a decade or more ago.
Charlotte's jail is downtown (1.8k beds, if iirc), and its DT is far from a ghost town. There is no reason Jax can't significantly improve downtown without moving the jail.
Moving the jail is a reasonable LONG TERM goal for the DT, but I don't think it is a higher priority than septic tank removals and other infrastructure improvements and maintenance that our city needs now, especially after having to invest $1B+ just down the street. If I had a magic wand and removed the jail today, the cranes would not just magically appear overnight. There is plenty of vacant land downtown; tearing down the jail would be like the Landing on steroids.
Those people you reference who don't go downtown because of the jail, do they not go to Jaguar games, other sporting events, and concerts? Because most people who live in the Jax Metro have no reason aside from special events to go downtown. Why drive past the restaurants and entertainment options in San Marco, Riverside, Brooklyn, TC, and the Beaches just to come downtown? COJ taxpayers and FDOT have subsidized the sprawl for decades at the expense of DT. Until DT has a competing QoL to the surrounding neighborhoods/suburbs, you'll never see lease/rental rates that rival major urban areas, jail or no jail.
How much have we spent as taxpayers to tear down city-owned property for it to sit vacant and underutilized? If we invested as much in activating downtown spaces as we have spent on subsidizing the sprawl over 50 years, downtown would be thriving.
Jax_Developer, I accidently clicked on the wrong button in moderator mode, resulting in the reply below overriding your's. I was able to go back and restore your original, at the 11:36:16 edit mark. Sorry about that. Here is my reply to your post at 10:27:
QuoteThe Apple item is to demonstrate the lack of a proper study on the opportunity costs surrounding this heavy investment. I don't care about Apple. If a private company did what the COJ is doing, the point is they would be out of biz.
Yes, a private company would be out of business if it had the responsibilities of a municipal government. I have no disagreement with this statement and I'm also not defending COJ's revitalization strategies and investments in the past.....because they haven't work. That's clear as day, as revitalization should not take 70 years.
QuoteHow is it that the CC hasn't been able to turn it around but they demolished almost the entirety of Brooklyn? And why is it that Brooklyn has somehow been able to turn it around? I don't think I can believe the argument that Brooklyn was somehow in a better state than the CC.
I really do believe that taking a deep dive into history will reveal the cause and effect. In many ways, Brooklyn is an example of urban renewal, gentrification and a bad outcome for urban revitalization. We basically turned a walkable neighborhood into a suburban arterial filled with surface parking lots and parking garages.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brooklyn/Riverside-Avenue.jpg)
Riverside Avenue in 2000 verses 2006 immediately after the 6-lane widening. We basically used roadway widening money to acquire and raze an entire urban commercial district. It's taken over 20 years since that time to get to where Riverside Avenue is today. However, the resulting infill has largely been suburban oriented due to an unwillingness to support urban infill from a public policy perspective.Now, if we just want to focus on new construction over the last decade, we have to go back +20 years ago when FDOT destroyed blocks and blocks of the neighborhood for what was then the most expensive roadway widening project ever (Riverside Avenue and Forest Avenue to six lanes).
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1632-brooklyn-park-528.jpg)
Brooklyn Park was supposed to be a part of the Miles Development project. Much of what was left in Brooklyn east of Park Street, was razed for this project that then failed when the real estate market crashed.Then there was Miles Development in the early 2000s that basically razed everything east of Park Street for an infill project that failed when the real estate market crashed in the mid-2000s. Then we also need to account for the increase in popularity of Riverside and Five Points and the early 21st century challenges for infill commercial development that came with that growth (i.e. it's a local historic district with a zoning overlay, so there's only so much infill density that could take place without a big fight with neighborhood groups). There was also incentives play and significant investment in infrastructure and drainage, east of Park Street.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6834-200_riverside_final.jpg)
A previous pre-2008 proposal for what eventually became 220 Riverside.When the real estate market came back after the crash, the NAI Hallmark was finally able to get 220 Riverside underway back during the Alvin Brown Administration and the Miles property got developed, both being able to have direct access to a larger market base, while being adjacent to the Northbank to still be considered downtown. I've said a lot and definitely missed out with some additional detail, but significant investment in public infrastructure played a big role in what's happening out. The big negative is that same public infrastructure investment and a lack of will power at the municipal level to require more urban oriented infill projects has made the area very autocentric. All in all, Brooklyn is a good and bad local example for us to learn from.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453365348_QuTFX-M.jpg)
Riverside Avenue in 2009. On one hand, new access to I-10/95 and the reconstruction of Forest Street and Riverside Avenue were a positive, in terms of investing in public infrastructure. On the other hand, if better planned, we could have saved the urban integrity of the neighborhood and created opportunity for denser mixed use infill, while still benefitting from the public infrastructure enhancements.QuoteThe Jail has been one of the only consistent items on the Northbank for the last 40 years. Whoever made that decision, has caused billions in unintended damages. I understand there is more history to it all, but I don't believe this argument for the last 5-10 years. Times can change what has more meaningful impacts. Right now it is the jail and a large majority of people I talk to here say that is the #1 reason they don't go downtown. Lease rates and rental rates prove this.
To me, we have to really ignore cohesive history of how the Northbank arrived at where it is today to immediately point to the jail as the #1 issue for the Northbank's challenges. The jail has been in that immediate vicinity since the founding of the city decades prior to the civil war. There is no one-trick pony/site solution to the Northbank's challenges.
QuoteSo has many other downtowns across the US. I grew up in a top 50 metro, and when we first moved there a few families owned a ton of the RE. This same story can be said elsewhere too. When bigger money comes into play, things change. Why do we see Town Center with lease rates that rival South FL and major urban areas? There are reasons for all of that. DT has been plagued by poor policy.. completely agree.. but there is more to it now.
We can't keep being plagued by poor policy and expect different outcomes, regardless of where public incentives are being funneled. My one comment to all of this is to first stop doing what doesn't work. In fact, start doing the complete opposite. In this revitalization process, that's where we need to start.
QuoteOther cities are pulling ahead like crazy while we are for some reason debating on the idea of a 2,000+ bed pre-trial facility/jail devaluing DT property. Other cities made these decisions a decade or more ago.
What else have other cities done and when during their revitalization process? I don't think anyone is really debating the idea. The debate is more around how it fits into everything else that needs to also be done during the revitalization process.
Quote from: Gators312 on June 12, 2023, 11:25:06 AM
tearing down the jail would be like the Landing on steroids.
A good example of a public policy decision that has cost us at least a full decade of activity at this particular site, that will also require a good $50-$75 million in extra public money to eventually turn it into a park.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-c7DBfRz/0/a7777ec9/L/Jacksonville%20Landing%20-%20WB-L.jpg)
2015 Landing redevelopment plan that requested $11.8 million in public incentives.(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-PWHFh8t/0/97d391ea/L/Jacksonville%20Landing%20-%20WB3-L.jpg)
Would DT Jax be better off with this being completed +5-7 years ago for $12 million in tax incentives or the current plaza plan that will cost us +$50-$75 million in public money, that may not be completed for another decade (yes, completion includes the tower too).
Different people will have different answers. However, what's not debatable is the extra amount of money flowing into the site from taxpayers and the opportunity cost when it comes to development timeline. We've missed another economic development boom (what else could have gotten underway when the market was booming?) and the revitalization process of the Northbank core has been extended another generation.
In this case, we're 100% the reason for spending extra tax money that could have helped other neighborhoods or downtown needs. We're also 100% responsible for Northbank revitalization taking +10 years longer. The jail also had no impact on the viability of this particular project. However, petty local politics did.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Hyatt-Place-Downtown/i-ggKk6TT/0/5e2ac806/L/Presentation1-1-L.jpg)
Maybe something like this dead Hyatt Place project would have got done and built by now, if the 2015 Landing project moved forward. Imagine the Northbank waterfront today, if the Landing, Hyatt Place and VyStar were all successfully completed years ago. How many more restaurants, retailers, residents, businesses, tourists, bars, events, jobs, etc. would be clustered in the core of the Northbank today? It's staggering when you really sit down and think about it. We can't bring back lost opportunities but we can learn from them, to make sure we don't miss the next opportunity that pops up.
Quote from: Gators312 on June 12, 2023, 11:25:06 AM
Charlotte's jail is downtown (1.8k beds, if iirc), and its DT is far from a ghost town. There is no reason Jax can't significantly improve downtown without moving the jail.
I just looked up that facility. I think what I will do is make a chart, and go through every top 50 metro to demonstrate the extreme proximity of the Jax jail to the tallest buildings DT. The Charlotte facility for example is probably one of the only ones that comes close that I have seen so far. Still being further from the central core by several blocks, smaller, and bounded by a freeway I do think makes their situation better than ours.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 12, 2023, 12:23:00 PM
Quote from: Gators312 on June 12, 2023, 11:25:06 AM
tearing down the jail would be like the Landing on steroids.
A good example of a public policy decision that has cost us at least a full decade of activity at this particular site, that will also require a good $50-$75 million in extra public money to eventually turn it into a park.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-c7DBfRz/0/a7777ec9/L/Jacksonville%20Landing%20-%20WB-L.jpg)
2015 Landing redevelopment plan that requested $11.8 million in public incentives.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-PWHFh8t/0/97d391ea/L/Jacksonville%20Landing%20-%20WB3-L.jpg)
Would DT Jax be better off with this being completed +5-7 years ago for $12 million in tax incentives or the current plaza plan that will cost us +$50-$75 million in public money, that may not be completed for another decade (yes, completion includes the tower too).
Different people will have different answers. However, what's not debatable is the extra amount of money flowing into the site from taxpayers and the opportunity cost when it comes to development timeline. We've missed another economic development boom (what else could have gotten underway when the market was booming?) and the revitalization process of the Northbank core has been extended another generation.
In this case, we're 100% the reason for spending extra tax money that could have helped other neighborhoods or downtown needs. We're also 100% responsible for Northbank revitalization taking +10 years longer. The jail also had no impact on the viability of this particular project. However, petty local politics did.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Hyatt-Place-Downtown/i-ggKk6TT/0/5e2ac806/L/Presentation1-1-L.jpg)
Maybe something like this dead Hyatt Place project would have got done and built by now, if the 2015 Landing project moved forward. Imagine the Northbank waterfront today, if the Landing, Hyatt Place and VyStar were all successfully completed years ago. How many more restaurants, retailers, residents, businesses, tourists, bars, events, jobs, etc. would be clustered in the core of the Northbank today? It's staggering when you really sit down and think about it. We can't bring back lost opportunities but we can learn from them, to make sure we don't miss the next opportunity that pops up.
Lol I bet your computer has a ton of renderings & projects.. Always impressive how much information you have on things here locally.. hence why I gravitated to the site! I don't think I disagree with your statements really.. I think the issue has become hyper focused in the past 5-10 years mainly. If there was successful ground-up occurring nearby, I wouldn't feel the same way I do. I do think underwriting projects near the CC have become extremely difficult.
But let me mess around this weekend and see if JAX really does have the closest jail facility to the tallest building in town. That would be an interesting stat IMO.
QuoteLol I bet your computer has a ton of renderings & projects.. Always impressive how much information you have on things here locally.. hence why I gravitated to the site!
Lol unfortunately! We've had the forums running since 2004 or 2005. We've seen a million projects be proposed and die or significantly value engineered over that period of time.
QuoteBut let me mess around this weekend and see if JAX really does have the closest jail facility to the tallest building in town. That would be an interesting stat IMO.
Fort Lauderdale has Jax beat. Their jail and tallest are a good stone's throw across their little river.
No jail relocation stuff in Deegan's first budget:
QuoteMayor-elect Donna Deegan talks budget priorities, appointments in exclusive interview
As for potential future projects, Deegan said she is open to incoming City Council President Ron Salem's idea to study whether the downtown jail should be moved elsewhere. She also said she wants to analyze data over time to decide whether to enroll police into the Florida Retirement System pension plan. Neither project would be decided or funded in her first year's budget, she said.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/politics/government/2023/07/03/mayor-elect-donna-deegan-outlines-priorities-for-first-budget-goals-for-july-1-transition/70356673007/
Opportunity cost will continue to skyrocket. Already well over $1B.
I did what I said I was going to do, albeit a little later than I thought. Here are some parameters used:
- Top 25 Cities in the US by population
- Assessed the location of any downtown facility
- If it was located downtown, the overall size was considered
The reason why city size was used, and not metro.. is due to a few reasons.
- Jacksonville has been a top 25 sized city for over 50 years
- Using MSA's typically means there are several downtowns, with several jails/prisons, with varying levels of land availability
- City based reasoning allows for several variables related to decision making to be "similar"
With that being said, Jacksonville is truly the only of its kind. When you look at other Top 25 cities with downtown facilities, the comparisons get to be very difficult to rationalize.
Here are cities without downtown facilities of any kind:
1). New York City
2). Los Angeles
3). Philadelphia (a small federal corrections facility exists for trial only)
4). San Antonio
5). Dallas
6). San Jose
7). OKC
8 ). D.C.
9). Indianapolis
These markets are representative of the extremely high price/demand for downtown land with the exception of OKC & maybe San Antonio.. essentially forcing their jail's relocation overtime. Some may point out that NYC has a facility in Chinatown, for which I'd say go look at the news for that one.. They have met high levels of resistance for a new facility.. so much so the Mayor has put things on halt.
These cities have facilities near downtown, but they are geographically separated from the rest of downtown:
1). Houston
2). Charlotte (limited)
3). Nashville
4). Boston
5). Denver
All of these cities are those which have expensive land prices for downtown space, and thus have their facilities near less desirable downtown locations.. such as near freeways or railroads.
These cities have jails/prisons on the edge of downtown, often times with almost 10 blocks separating them from "main st" of their respective central cores:
1). Phoenix
2). Austin
3). Fort Worth
4). Columbus (limited - actively relocating outside of DT)
5). San Francisco
6). Seattle (limited)
7). Las Vegas (limited)
Some of these can be explained as well.. Phoenix is located near an industrial zone DT. San Francisco & Seattle have no reasonably available land within its city limits. Las Vegas has a facility positioned well off of the strip. Not downtown but I still wanted to count it.
These cities have centrally located downtown facilities, without barriers of access:
1). Chicago (federal corrections high-rise)
2). Jacksonville
3). San Diego
4). El Paso (1,000 beds)
Very hard to compare the Chicago or San Diego market to Jacksonville in this case. Chicago houses a federal facility near the federal district there, and San Diego is in the same boat as the other California cities.. which lacks available land. El Paso.. well I'll give the naysayers that one.
Out of the cities with a jail/prison downtown, here is a list of the cities with active relocation movements: Nashville, Fort Worth, San Francisco and Seattle. The following cities are currently in the act of relocating it's downtown jails/prisons: Indianapolis (I think done now), Columbus, Seattle (partially).
As for Ft. Lauderdale, again.. not an accurate comparison. Size of Ft. Lauderdale is 36 square miles vs. Jacksonville's 875 square miles. Ft. Lauderdale more closely resembles a city like San Diego in this comparison.. most of San Diego is not developable and lacks available land.. unlike Jacksonville. San Diego also has high enough land values to still facilitate construction nearby a price depressed block around the jail.. just like Fort Lauderdale. Again, we have land.. they don't.
Jacksonville most closely resembles El Paso on this list.. El Paso is surrounded by government uses.. and parking lots. Almost no private business to speak of within a block or two... but it is also located on land that otherwise holds no additional value.. such as a view of the river.. There absolutely needs to be a study on how we can correct this critical error. To say the Northbank isn't hurting because of the jail is a complete myth at this point. Still yet to see a study or article on how jails can co-exist with densely populated downtown spaces.
I'm in Columbus right now and staying across the street from the courthouse and jail. It's more centrally located than Jax's jail, as Hogans Creek is historically an industrial area on the far edge downtown. This government complex is dab smack on High Street, the main street running through downtown and the entire town. It is two blocks south of Columbus Commons (and old mall demolished and converted into a park.....like what we want to do with the Landing site) and roughly two blocks from the riverfront (already done...but what we wish ours could resemble in the future).
The German Village and the Brewery District neighborhoods are immediately south of the jail. German Village is a like a more dense and vibrant version of Riverside.....but within walking distance of downtown....if you're willing to walk by the jail and county courthouse complex. There are also expensive lofts across the street. Downtown Columbus as a whole solidifies how bad we have been at revitalizing downtown Jacksonville. Even the worst of this place is a lot cleaner and more manicured from a public realm perspective.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-P7srPhQ/0/813e2a0d/L/20230709_122403-L.jpg)
Courthouse on left, my hotel is the large red brick building on the right.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-rjdx5kv/0/42da31e8/L/20230707_182345-L.jpg)
Franklin County Government Center (and jail) on left, new loft apartments on right.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-wWwm8bt/0/17cbfb51/L/20230707_182446-L.jpg)
Adaptive reuse loft apartments one block north of the jail.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-GFB9nH4/0/6053611d/L/20230707_182702-L.jpg)
The hotel I'm at (left) and the county courthouse (right).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-n5zd2cJ/0/f99b07a4/L/20230709_104254-L.jpg)
I ate breakfast at the hotel this morning. This was my view. The jail and county complex across the street, expensive river front condo towers two or three blocks west of High Street (the main street through DT Columbus).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-Hm6tCfB/0/516c60f1/L/20230707_104509-L.jpg)
Columbus Commons on Friday, one block north of the hotel.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-xFTS262/0/97c41050/L/20230709_104433-L.jpg)
Bail bonds and restaurants in historic buildings and storefronts across the street from the jail.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-2f7XXvX/0/05e721d0/L/20230709_105208-L.jpg)
The jail is on the northside of I-71. German Village is a historic district immediately located on the south side of I-71. I walked through it this morning as well. Here are a few pictures.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-wKfpw4W/0/0e69dbbd/L/20230709_105852-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-x2zJpKw/0/a945a738/L/20230709_110534-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-LSBGz5c/0/b3c8cca8/L/20230709_111600-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-qwR2pdM/0/d807f6c6/L/20230709_112658-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-xx5XjH8/0/e928d67d/L/20230709_113245-L.jpg)
On my way back to the hotel, I walked through the Brewery District, which is immediately on the other side of I-71 from the jail.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-2LcVCjG/0/685a30d0/L/20230709_114903-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-2DV9Pwm/0/74a57dc0/L/20230709_115431-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-5MgNSZH/0/cf828af0/L/20230709_115749-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-VHZSPkg/0/ae12ef4a/L/20230709_120457-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-qq2XH5v/0/3f477fa8/L/20230709_120537-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-GVNW6X2/0/c7096368/L/20230709_121210-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-QCQM8s9/0/46946123/L/20230709_121544-L.jpg)
This was taken one block south of the jail.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-k4fSNvr/0/ac99c27a/L/20230709_121534-L.jpg)
You can see the government tower (the jail is attached to it) in the background of these restored old brewery buildings. I-71 separates the two.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-zzPf6zr/0/6ab4d120/L/20230709_122010-L.jpg)
The back entrance of the jail.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-P73SKp4/0/3aa99324/L/20230709_122021-L.jpg)
Smaller jail but definitely solves the transportation issue of getting prisoners to the courtroom.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-8BpwCm2/0/c15ba3e7/L/20230709_122057-L.jpg)
Very similar to JSO's complex but with county operations all consolidated vertically.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-mNx56Q3/0/b80d1ad9/L/20230709_122229-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-pVhTFrR/0/45663efb/L/20230709_122323-L.jpg)
Oh yeah....the riverfront. This was taken on Friday, about two blocks NE of the back of jail and detention center across the street.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-CVFW5Z8/0/6ad6afb6/L/20230707_182122-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-2KZ9dNw/0/01dfc881/L/20230707_182007-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-Hss6rM7/0/52537770/L/20230707_181618-L.jpg)
Overall, I'm very impressed with what Columbus has accomplished since my last visit a decade ago. I'm not saying the jail is the best but I was very impressed with the vibrancy of German Village (immediately south of it), High Street (immediately east and north of it) and just the overall clean streets and well manicured public land scape in general. Downtown Jax looks dingy in comparison.
In the end, I agree that we should study the future of jail relocation....even if that relocation is to stay downtown (there is a logical economic argument of keeping the hundreds of JSO jobs downtown). If the complex is nearing the end of its useful life, that's the smart thing to do. However, that's a completely separate conversation from spinning jail relocation as a revitalization strategy. The jail didn't blow up the Landing and leave it as a vacant lot. The jail isn't the reason we have not been able to two-way our streets after talking about it for decades. The jail isn't the reason our public realm isn't maintained and well landscaped like what's shown in the Columbus pictures. We have a lot of things we need to address in downtown. It would be a mistake to cover up our implementation warts by blaming them on having a jail in downtown.
I also like the discussion of the new Franklin County Jail. It's largely focused around the need to replace a dated facility and modern prison design. Not about making downtown vibrant. Likely because their downtown and surrounding neighborhoods already have life.
https://correctionalnews.com/2020/05/01/new-ohio-jail-on-track-to-open-in-2021/
https://news.wosu.org/news/2021-07-27/new-franklin-county-jail-offers-more-light-open-spaces-and-rehabilitation-services
Duval's jail is closer to the the CC than Columbus. The duval jail is 3 blocks to the BOA tower.. Columbus is 9-10 blocks from it's skyscraper core. Also, Columbus' jail is bordered by an interstate, and is boxed in by parking, stroads and other govt uses according to google maps.
Columbus built their facility in 1986. Duval's in 1991 of course. So I don't really buy that second argument as much and I don't think the links provided prove that it was built for any one purpose. Sounds to me that there were enough collective benefits to make the move happen. AKA, dated facility, using prime downtown land, with negative social externalities. All of these combined negatives do mean more than just a financial return I'd argue and I think duval is in the same position.
I do agree btw that the Jail is not responsible for why we are here today.. poor leadership got us here and I don't want to argue another position on it.. but there has been a black hole created for projects within X miles of the jail for quite a while now, that essentially cuts off everything else that we are working towards. It would be a shame to have Brooklyn, Southbank, and the Sports District all revitalized with the CC cutting off that consistency. A healthy DT area should have higher rents/leases.. which is true for the aforementioned spaces.. but not the CC.
BOA is six blocks from the jail, not three. However, the center of the Northbank is a few blocks north of BOA. Columbus is also laid out differently. The downtown is linear and the skyscrapers (their government center is a skyscraper) are as well. I'd call the capitol the core and it is closer to their jail than our city hall. It's also on their main street. Bay Street is not ours. Nevertheless, the most vibrant areas of Columbus are to the north and south of downtown (although the downtown is very active).
Also, it would be better to compare county population instead of city or MSA. I believe Duval County is the country's 45 or 46 largest. I believe using city population to compare county jails, invalidates a good portion of your analysis.
Last, do you know what they are going to do with their existing downtown jail, once their larger facility is open? I can't imagine that they are going to put in condos or worried about residential leasing rates. Their government center takes up a fraction of the land that ours does, despite Franklin County being larger than Duval. I imagine, that portion of their block will be retrofitted with a compatible government related use.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 10, 2023, 07:31:40 AM
Also, Columbus' jail is bordered by an interstate, and is boxed in by parking, stroads and other govt uses according to google maps.
I walked this area this past weekend. It is reflected in the images. It is more vibrant than any area of Downtown Jax. Brooklyn and the Southbank included. The City of Columbus has done a significantly better job at tackling downtown revitalization then we have. I believe that is where our low hanging fruit lesson lies. In spite of all our warts, we can do more with what we have now, along with taking advantage of big ticket items when they present themselves.
Non-jail related and where Google Maps can be deceiving is the work they've been doing with their Interstate overpasses. FDOT and JTA could learn a few things about how to reconnect neighborhoods back together from a pedestrian perspective, by improving mid-century highways that were built to destroy them.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-Jp2TdLM/0/e871aea9/X3/20230707_143413-X3.jpg)
The High Street bridge over I-670. It's a cap with restaurants. As a pedestrian, you don't notice you're on a bridge.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-tKfnNJM/0/eae273e6/X3/20230707_143432-X3.jpg)
The back of the cap and I-670 in the background.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-B3kK3pF/0/6ae3abf0/X3/20230709_125309-X3.jpg)
Bronzeville's Long Street is Jacksonville's version of LaVilla's West Ashley Street. Here, the I-71 bridge is designed as a linear park, paying homage to the Long Street scene that was destroyed decades ago.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-LjS9pJV/0/1c88c91c/X3/20230709_132523-X3.jpg)
Like the High Street example in Short North, the Bronzeville I-71 bridge cap is designed for a retail pad in the future. In the meantime, this portion serves as a linear park.
QuoteColumbus built their facility in 1986. Duval's in 1991 of course. So I don't really buy that second argument as much and I don't think the links provided prove that it was built for any one purpose. Sounds to me that there were enough collective benefits to make the move happen. AKA, dated facility, using prime downtown land, with negative social externalities. All of these combined negatives do mean more than just a financial return I'd argue and I think duval is in the same position.
They built their jail in 1969. It is 22 years older than the Duval County Jail and smaller, despite Franklin County being larger than Duval County. They are good comparable to examine their process, timeline, the when and the why. In the meantime, we should be working to resolve the other downtown ailments we've struggled with.
All of this said, I heard Councilman Salem's interview this morning on First Coast Connect. I agree with the language he made, regarding his desire to begin to study the pros and cons of building a new jail and pinning down an actual estimate to do so.
I was just pulling information from google so apologize if the date of construction is off there. Regardless I think we agree that the justification for a study does exist.. I think Donna shouldn't let this one off so easily.
There's finally a rendering of the proposed convention center at the jail site, from the DIA:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785394406445547520/1128687336658567168/Screenshot_2023-07-12_at_9.59.49_AM.png)
However, as you can see, the jail itself is still visible behind the convention center, only the police building appears to have been replaced. Which either means that this rendering was lazy and they didn't appropriately account for the physical space of the convention center, or it's much smaller than previously suggested.
Which actually leads me to think: I think we've historically assumed that the police building and the jail would stay together or be replaced at the same time, but that's not actually obligated, is it? Could we just build a new police building (one spot that comes to mind is the block bounded by Broad, Adams, Clay, and Houston streets next to the County Courthouse), rehab the jail, and use it for another decade or two with provisions to eventually hold an expansion of the convention center?
This rendering makes no sense.
It's just a lazy rendering. There's no solid plan, budget, timeline or committed funding source for a convention center at this time.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 12, 2023, 12:38:21 PM
It's just a lazy rendering. There's no solid plan, budget, timeline or committed funding source for a convention center at this time.
Jax pumps crap like this out like from an assembly line... we love renderings and studie...
Convention Center issue aside, how about that police building idea? Assuming the building is nearing its end of life (which seems possible with it approaching 50 years old) it could make some sense to focus on moving them to a smaller-footprint, more vertical structure, defer the jail itself unless that's also at EOL, and then we can decide what to do with that space (especially once we're talking about getting rid of the Hart ramps).
Personally I'd rather see the police station stay there, due to the valid counterpoints related to DT employment. The jail itself doesn't employ more than 500 people. The entire force is 3,500 according to JSO. I'd much rather have those 3,000 ish jobs remain HQ'd DT then.. if they do move 500 lost jobs from a relocated jail. I think the jail is the only building that actually requires a relocation, police HQ should remain and probably adds to the image of having a secure DT. Just my 2 cents.
I was suggesting earlier constructing a new police building near the Courthouse (the block bounded by Broad, Adams, Clay, and Houston streets), not moving it to wherever the jail would go. It'd be able to take advantage of the existing Courthouse garage, still be downtown, but also be in more of what is now the "Government Center" area than the current jail. I suppose an "in-place" alternative if one were to remove the Hart ramps could be that corner of Adams and Liberty just north of the current building.
I'd like to see as many jobs as possible stay downtown and in the Northbank. That means that I'd be against JSO relocating from downtown. JSO kept many struggling downtown businesses open during the pandemic while private sector offices let their employees work remotely. I'm actually fine with them and their building remaining in the same place. However, I think the future of their facility and potential relocation should also be vetted as a part of a jail relocation study.
As for the Broad Street corridor, I don't believe that is the best place for them. It is basically an extension of Riverside Avenue. I believe Broad Street should once again be a continuous corridor of mixed use development with ground floor commercial stretching from Bay Street to State & Union. Similar to what High Street in Columbus, OH continues to be. With Riverside Avenue filling up, it is a natural market rate extension (there's a Whole Foods going up right across the bridge), we just can't let the DIA and DDRB screw it up with poor, incompatible infill.
With JSO, I doubt a new facility would be mixed use and active at the pedestrian level. So I'd rather them stay in their current building then shift that dead street life to Broad Street and LaVilla.
Ah I see Marcus, my misunderstanding there. I would agree with Lake tho.. right now their existing building is in a good spot and I'd rather see improvements to where they sit now then relocating them. I also have mentioned before that I think a jail RFP could require the developer to do improvements to the police station. I think a study is really needed here that analyzes them as separate items.