https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/06/developer-plans-residential-tower-at-former-river-city-brewery-site/
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/RD-River-City-Brewing-Tower-Project/i-PH8LkCt/0/d87eccde/X2/20230413__DDRB%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_226-X2.jpg)
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 06, 2023, 07:14:06 PM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/06/developer-plans-residential-tower-at-former-river-city-brewery-site/
Here we go again with hopes, high hopes, dreams, etc. Regarding these incentives deals; please educate me. Does that deal, or (money?) go into the developers pockets? And if they don't build it, do they get to keep the money from that deal or have to give it back to the City?
Wait, is the restaurant on the park out for this new plan?
The restaurant is included. It's just in a more isolated riverfront location. I get the desire for the river view but it's weird seeing no retail/dining closer to the park or the main roundabout:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/RD-River-City-Brewing-Tower-Project/i-NxC7XCm/0/98902dc7/X3/20230413__DDRB%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_223-X3.jpg)
^This is such a bummer.
Having that restaurant right there coming off the Main Street Bridge to activate the park was my favorite feature of the previous project.
Would have been great the area.
I just don't think you get the same effect at all on the back like this.
Also wonder if/hope there's a way to get retail on the ground floor of the garage, at least on the side facing the park.
What happened to Boyer's DIA setback rules for heights along the river front? Looks like this doesn't meet the setbacks for buildings like this.
QuoteWhile the DDRB staff found the building height met city requirements, its setback did not. The building shows a 16-foot-wide Riverwalk when a minimum 25-foot-wide setback is required.
It looks like the rendering below left out a dividing structure between the park area and pool area. I believe it's called out as a 4 foot aluminum picket fence in one plan. Doesn't seem that would give much privacy to the residents using the pool. Wonder if they will have the latitude to replace it with a solid wall.
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/04/06/New_River_City_Brewing_Tower_2_t850.jpg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)
And, not thrilled with the view approaching the Acosta Bridge from the south. Don't forget, on the west side of the bridge are the Baptist and One Call garages and ones for the apartments up against the bridge. Not too pretty to me, especially as a gateway to the river and downtown skyline. The remaining park also is beginning to look "smallish" in this rendering and will be sitting in the shadow of the building for the second half of a day. No sunset viewings here. Finally, is the riverwalk intended to wrap around the building, cross the boat ramp and eventually connected under the Acosta Bridge to the Baptist waterfront? If so, how is that shown here?
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/04/06/New_River_City_Brewing_Tower_3_t850.jpg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)
I don't get why one would build an apartment building that size on the river like that while not putting anything on top of the garage. Is there some strange cost prohibition to just stacking the two together like that?
I wonder how much they're going to ask for in incentives.
On one hand, it's great that a developer potentially sees a market for a 24-story tower on the Southbank.
On the other hand, I just don't see this development as proposed having a positive impact on pedestrian vibrancy on the Southbank.
If anything, it kind of hurts it, casting a shadow across Friendship Park, providing no park-facing activation, and adding narrow setbacks to the Riverwalk.
Which is where, to me, a likely $20+ million incentive package between REV grants and completion grants for luxury upscale residential that doesn't really have a spillover effect to the rest of the Southbank is kind of hard to swallow.
Contrast it with something like the American Lions proposal for the former Landing site (pie in the sky, or not), and at least that project contains 36,000 square feet of restaurant/retail/plaza directly integrated with the park.
Greatly prefer the smaller, original proposal with the park-front restaurant.
Not a fan of this rendition at all.
I also don't like the architectural "theme" they chose for the conceptual rendering. I don't see how a real product could be much better from this. Screams cheap cheap cheap. If it's going to look kind of cheap, don't make it tall and prominent!
I agree with virtually everyone else's comments here, as well. We don't need to sacrifice Friendship Park for a project like this. As much as I want a better skyline with more high-rises, we have to be a bit more forward thinking. It's not about demanding Bjork Ingels to design something striking for every project, it's just about including some sensible and reasonable design standards.
We should demand at least a podium parked project, at the very least, if they want to go up and include more units. Wasting space like that, AND having terrible overall design, IMO, is just unacceptable.
My take is I'm honestly indifferent to how it looks in the sky, so to speak.
I definitely think putting the garage under the tower would be better - you can still wrap the garage in apartments that way. I realize that likely increases the construction costs, and had we done this right from the start then we could sell the other half of the property (or convert to public use or something). Related owns this so I'm not sure the motivation they'd have unless we "force" the motivation.
Forcing isn't really a big quality of DDRB or DIA.
If I were the city I would try to talk the developer into building a high-rise on the MOSH site instead. It will be awhile before it is available though.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2023, 03:28:48 PM
If I were the city I would try to talk the developer into building a high-rise on the MOSH site instead. It will be awhile before it is available though.
Maybe they can work out a land swap because Related owns the dirt now.
I hope the MOSH building could be repurchased into a different museum. This city won't have the money to build one from the ground up. So it's a good opportunity to add or upgrade another cultural project, museum or organization.
I think overal this is better. The pool is in a weird place. I'm surprised it's not on top of the garage or something. No one wants to be sitting by the pool being ogled by hobos.
The parking garage is likely a pre-cast fabricated garage, which come in standard sizes. They are much cheaper than integrated parking garages.
Move it left, move it right, slide it forward or back, I'm just happy it's not another suburban style firetrap!
It's Too Much
Certain Attraction Design Appeasement to no avail.
( However..... not too shabby for building up on a COJ Restaurant Lease....)
Just Skip It.
Leave the property " Undeveloped/ non residential "..... after all.... such lands adjacent to the River Front are too valuable to consign to residential.
The Aversion to this concept is telling.
Luckily for me, residence on a half acre Avondale waterfront parcel handy to Downtown'...it's been a great privilege to have outgrown the area...... such future proceedings viewed with casual interested detachment, and often derisive laughter shared with others ....the realization that a move pretty far from here is in the future.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2023, 04:01:22 PM
I hope the MOSH building could be repurchased into a different museum. This city won't have the money to build one from the ground up. So it's a good opportunity to add or upgrade another cultural project, museum or organization.
I doubt the city would be game for another museum for awhile. Even so, Museums do best when clustered with like attractions. Therefore any new museum would be best placed on the Northbank near the new MOSH. At its current location, MOSH didn't seem to get that much traffic. Putting a high rise there instead of where proposed, would allow for more step back from the river, which would be better visually, IMO. It would also allow expansion of the Fountain park and a wider Riverwalk.
The challenge here is that a skyscraper can be built in any vacant COJ owned lot, assuming there's a market to build one. In the last 20 years, the market hasn't been there. The couple that are proposed (Related, Landing site, Courthouse site) will require a level of public incentives that could fund many cultural opportunities from the ground up.
MOSH is only moving because they were offered a boat load of cash....only if they moved closer to the Jag's investments. Otherwise, they would have renovated and expanded at the existing location. I think the one-of-a-kind opportunity with the MOSH facility is that there is a structurally sound cultural facility.
We have several organizations and cultural uses that could possibly benefit from access to a larger existing space and friendly lease deal. Repurposing here, with the connection to Friendship Fountain and the Southbank Riverwalk is a one-of-a-kind opportunity on that end. On the cultural side of things, the city contribution could be a lease-friendly deal and the building (although I'm not sure if COJ or MOSH owns the structure).
As I type this, this scenario is almost a carbon copy situation we experienced with the Haydon Burns Library years ago. What DuPont ended up doing with that structure has been a positive impact for downtown. Back then, a lot of us wanted to tear it down for a group to put up a generic theater and condos. Now its 2023, we still have no downtown theater and we haven't had any condos built in DT since the 2006/07 real estate bust.
So looking back, if we had gone the blow it up route, we'd likely be looking at another parking lot today.
I'd also rather they try to find use for the MOSH building rather than creating another parking crater. What kind of amenity could be a fit?
Personally, I would like to see an additional art museum. One that would use the larger indoor space and fountain area for more sculpture art. My wife and I do go to the Cummer and DT Modern Art on a regular basis, but believe the area is growing and something could work. Perhaps include a section on the history of music and include a section on Southern Rock. Perhaps a combo of Museum/Gallery. Perhaps Shad Khan or the Jaguars can commission some art as was done at the training center. If Des Moines Iowa can have a multi acre outdoor sculpture garden, Jax can do something artistic with the old museum.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2023, 11:39:24 AM
MOSH is only moving because they were offered a boat load of cash....only if they moved closer to the Jag's investments. Otherwise, they would have renovated and expanded at the existing location.
and by boatload of cash, you mean $5 million - they need at least $80 million for the new building.
Lake, you make some good points, but let's face it, if Related proceeds at their current site, they are going to ask for and almost certainly get considerable incentives. In fact EVERY residential project including the run of the mill 5 story podium apartments get incentives. Shad Khan would probably donate to a second museum on the Northbank within short distance of MOSH as well. It's true an existing building would be cheaper than a build from the ground up situation. But I think the synergy of two museums (really three if you count the Orleck) within walking distance of each other has considerable value. Seattle, Baltimore, Charleston, SC and Greenville, SC (Heritage Green) are all examples of this. Keep in mind that renovations to Friendship Fountain last about 5 years and it takes another 10 years before the next 'renovation' occurs. Swapping sites for the Related project would still allow a new attraction or an augmentation to Friendship Fountain. The current Related rendering is just a jarring sight the way the building just soars upward so close to the river's edge.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 12, 2023, 04:25:16 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2023, 11:39:24 AM
MOSH is only moving because they were offered a boat load of cash....only if they moved closer to the Jag's investments. Otherwise, they would have renovated and expanded at the existing location.
and by boatload of cash, you mean $5 million - they need at least $80 million for the new building.
That's a boat load in Jacksonville.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 12, 2023, 04:42:21 PM
Lake, you make some good points, but let's face it, if Related proceeds at their current site, they are going to ask for and almost certainly get considerable incentives. In fact EVERY residential project including the run of the mill 5 story podium apartments get incentives.
I'm fine with this. Until there's a market, incentives will be needed on literally every major project downtown. Residential, commercial, entertainment, cultural, etc.
QuoteShad Khan would probably donate to a second museum on the Northbank within short distance of MOSH as well.
That would be great. Then we could use the structure for an additional cultural facility. I know of several organizations and groups with dreams. The building is an opportunity to make one or a few of them come true.
QuoteIt's true an existing building would be cheaper than a build from the ground up situation. But I think the synergy of two museums (really three if you count the Orleck) within walking distance of each other has considerable value. Seattle, Baltimore, Charleston, SC and Greenville, SC (Heritage Green) are all examples of this.
I agree. However, I don't think all of our focus has to be around making the shipyards something. That alone is a multiple decade thing.
QuoteKeep in mind that renovations to Friendship Fountain last about 5 years and it takes another 10 years before the next 'renovation' occurs.
I have no idea why Friendship Fountain has taken so long. Lakeland built a $100 million park in less time. That's a DIA/COJ problem. However, I don't think that COJ and the DIA have to lead all initiatives.
QuoteSwapping sites for the Related project would still allow a new attraction or an augmentation to Friendship Fountain. The current Related rendering is just a jarring sight the way the building just soars upward so close to the river's edge.
Related will be done before MOSH moves. I think swapping sites is completely unrealistic.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2023, 06:05:57 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 12, 2023, 04:25:16 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2023, 11:39:24 AM
MOSH is only moving because they were offered a boat load of cash....only if they moved closer to the Jag's investments. Otherwise, they would have renovated and expanded at the existing location.
and by boatload of cash, you mean $5 million - they need at least $80 million for the new building.
That's a boat load in Jacksonville.
$25 million, to be exact.
$5 million from Shad Khan, yes.
But you're forgetting the $20 million that was quietly slipped into the CIP by Curry to "lure a cultural attraction to the Shipyards" backslash get MOSH to blow up their plans on the Southbank so Curry could save face with Shad Khan after his convention center and Lot J plans got squashed.
Not to be confused with the $30 million that found its way into the CIP to move the Fairgrounds based on back-alley conversations between Curry, Brian Hughes, and the Jags.
Not to be confused with the $20 million set aside to get the Landing out of the way for Lot J.
That's almost $100 million there alone.
Toss in $50 million for speculative UF something or another, and we're taking a third of a metropolis's annual capital improvement budget being unilaterally funneled into shadowy agreements that the public has little visibility into.
But I digress...
Totally agree that standing up a new cultural attraction at the old MOSH site is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Last thing we need anchoring the south end of the Main Street Bridge is luxury residential. Keep the park front space for the people. A museum and potential restaurant on the park would be the perfect pedestrian friendly compliment to the riverwalk and the park.
I'd personally love to see MOSH 2.0 go in heavy on science, ecology, and local natural history, while standing up (or allowing the historical society) to stand up a proper Jax History museum at the old MOSH site. The history of Jax exhibit is already there, and it'd be a great opportunity to expand to include civil rights, culture, and sports, while leaving the ecology, music, and arts to the other museums.
Civil history kind of feels like a bit of a square peg anyway to what MOSH is envisioning for 2.0.
Helps the river walk. Helps the fountain. Helps the secret restaurant on the back end of Related's tower. Provides synergy with other museums along the Riverwalk/Water Taxi line.
Would just be downright foolish to not look at what other cities have done with their parkfront space and decide to bulldoze for residential.
QuoteTotally agree that standing up a new cultural attraction at the old MOSH site is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Last thing we need anchoring the south end of the Main Street Bridge is luxury residential. Keep the park front space for the people. A museum and potential restaurant on the park would be the perfect pedestrian friendly compliment to the riverwalk and the park.
I'd personally love to see MOSH 2.0 go in heavy on science, ecology, and local natural history, while standing up (or allowing the historical society) to stand up a proper Jax History museum at the old MOSH site. The history of Jax exhibit is already there, and it'd be a great opportunity to expand to include civil rights, culture, and sports, while leaving the ecology, music, and arts to the other museums.
Civil history kind of feels like a bit of a square peg anyway to what MOSH is envisioning for 2.0.
Helps the river walk. Helps the fountain. Helps the secret restaurant on the back end of Related's tower. Provides synergy with other museums along the Riverwalk/Water Taxi line.
Would just be downright foolish to not look at what other cities have done with their parkfront space and decide to bulldoze for residential.
I have to vehemently disagree that having a high rise tower at the MOSH site would in ANY WAY limit the use of the park by 'regular folks'. To the degree that it would, the CURRENT Related proposal would do that even more so, as it is just as adjacent to the park as the MOSH site, and consumes a lot more land, and waterfront land at that. A high rise could also reduce the footprint of the MOSH building and give up some land to the park.
Lake is correct that the timing isn't good, which I thought I mentioned in my first post. But you have to admit that we already have decades of experience of seeing that a museum and the park combined DO NOT create the kind of synergy that is desired. I don't think simply swapping one museum for another is going to change that. Jacksonville is not a tourist mecca and likely never will be. Even the cities that do draw a lot more tourists still cluster their cultural/museum/tourist sites together. Ideally, that would be the route Jacksonville takes as well. Friendship Fountain would be better off with an expanded park with expanded offerings (playground, shaded rest spots for runners to make it the focal point of the SB Riverwalk, additional fountains, etc.) with adjacent food and beverage amenities such as a food hall. A high rise residence would certainly help support that. Everything surrounding the Fountain is active only during business hours and that is part of the problem. Having more land would allow for more and different programming as well.
BTW, the Shipyards IS parkfront and waterfront space. In a ideal situation, JAX shouldn't divide its core of cultural resources.
So putting aside the future use of MOSH for a sec and regarding Related proposal: Would it be better if they literally swapped the restaurant patio and pool area? I'm thinking that would turn the restaurant to face the street but also with riverfront views since the pool isn't tall.
I liked the restaurant in the original proposed location. It better complements the park, the river can still be seen and it's closer to the street. As proposed, I believe this restaurant space is struggle.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 13, 2023, 07:26:53 AMBut you have to admit that we already have decades of experience of seeing that a museum and the park combined DO NOT create the kind of synergy that is desired.
MOSH (on its own) has survived just well. The Southbank Riverwalk remains popular too. I'd argue that the overall suburban and autocentric nature of the Southbank is the larger negative factor at play. That changes with additional compatible infill development. Related can help, as well as the redesign of the park and how it connects to the MOSH building (as of now, they don't connect at ground level).
QuoteI don't think simply swapping one museum for another is going to change that. Jacksonville is not a tourist mecca and likely never will be. Even the cities that do draw a lot more tourists still cluster their cultural/museum/tourist sites together. Ideally, that would be the route Jacksonville takes as well. Friendship Fountain would be better off with an expanded park with expanded offerings (playground, shaded rest spots for runners to make it the focal point of the SB Riverwalk, additional fountains, etc.) with adjacent food and beverage amenities such as a food hall. A high rise residence would certainly help support that. Everything surrounding the Fountain is active only during business hours and that is part of the problem. Having more land would allow for more and different programming as well.
All of these things are possible...with the building remaining as well. The building could be retrofited into many cultural, entertainment, etc. uses that operate outside of daytime business hours. Museums could work but so could research archives, spaces for cultural special events, education, etc. All of these uses should incorporate a F&B or retail component that is integrated with the park. I think the opportunity extends far beyond tourism from a traditional thinking of what tourism is. In essence, it can be incorporated as an additional amenity within the park. But once it's gone, it's gone and whatever replaces it is likely something generic that could be built on any other surface parking lot in the immediate vicinity.
QuoteBTW, the Shipyards IS parkfront and waterfront space. In a ideal situation, JAX shouldn't divide its core of cultural resources.
Our reality is that destinations like the Ritz, Cummer, Friendship Fountain, etc. aren't going any where and even if we had the funds, should not be relocated from their historically linked communities and neighborhoods to an industrial site that's decades away itself from being converted into a park.
With the Ritz, I fully believe the exhibits should be revamped into an African American history, music or civil rights facility, anchoring LaVilla's role as the birthplace of the Chitlin Circuit.
So I don't think they (other sites and the MOSH building) take away from the Shipyards. Plus, ideally we should still focus on clustering things on both sides of the river between the Acosta and Hyatt, strengthening the Northbank and Southbank core riverfronts. Like retrofitting the Landing (when we had that opportunity) I believe that thoughtful repurposing of the MOSH property could be a very unique opportunity for Jax that doesn't necessarily take away from any other goal or space in town. Instead, it takes advantage of the assets we already have.
In my opinion the Southbank has the immediate potential to be a high-end residential district. This would require some effort by city planners to do so.. but the recipe is there. Some of the highest rents in the city, a few desirable entertainment areas nearby, and the river of course. When you look at the make up of the Southbank too, its not hindered like Brooklyn was with shotgun platted lots that needed to be purchased overtime. (Ditto LaVilla to a lesser degree). The Southbank has several block to block structures, and large acreage lots that could be extremely well repurposed.
I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but the former Prudential Building has over 10 acres of parking... 10 acres! Imagine what could be done there. The Ameris Bank Building owns 3-4 acres of surface parking... right next to the Main St bridge DT.
It would be almost too good to be true to see, but the Mosh building/friendship park could serve as a nightlife & retail hub being in the location that it is near the Riverwalk & Skyway Station. Overlay the Southbank to get rid of these massive parking lots, however that needs to be done. Allow for dense residential & retail use. There is so much land that could be easily repurposed and it could flourish in the much more immediate term than several other city projects.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on April 13, 2023, 10:45:30 AM
In my opinion the Southbank has the immediate potential to be a high-end residential district. This would require some effort by city planners to do so.. but the recipe is there. Some of the highest rents in the city, a few desirable entertainment areas nearby, and the river of course. When you look at the make up of the Southbank too, its not hindered like Brooklyn was with shotgun platted lots that needed to be purchased overtime. (Ditto LaVilla to a lesser degree). The Southbank has several block to block structures, and large acreage lots that could be extremely well repurposed.
I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but the former Prudential Building has over 10 acres of parking... 10 acres! Imagine what could be done there. The Ameris Bank Building owns 3-4 acres of surface parking... right next to the Main St bridge DT.
It would be almost too good to be true to see, but the Mosh building/friendship park could serve as a nightlife & retail hub being in the location that it is near the Riverwalk & Skyway Station. Overlay the Southbank to get rid of these massive parking lots, however that needs to be done. Allow for dense residential & retail use. There is so much land that could be easily repurposed and it could flourish in the much more immediate term than several other city projects.
I agree JaxDev I agree. Not to mimic Miami, but the Southbank could indeed be downtown Jax's Brickell (of a sort but more residential in nature).
This is better than it was, but the apartments surroundin the garage could use work visually.
An update from yesterday's meeting? Conceptual approval granted.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/13/river-city-brewing-development-earns-ddrb-conceptual-approval/
" Approved" !
Not bad for a COJ Restaurant/ Lease.
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2023, 05:27:43 PM
An update from yesterday's meeting? Conceptual approval granted.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/13/river-city-brewing-development-earns-ddrb-conceptual-approval/
This feels a bit like the Lot J/Shipyards debacle. The initial project fails for various reasons so there's this huge rush to get its replacement through as quickly as possible without fixing any of the fundamental issues, and even though the final project will ultimately be
okay, it'll have missed out on a lot of potential improvements that could have been better long term.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on April 13, 2023, 10:45:30 AM
In my opinion the Southbank has the immediate potential to be a high-end residential district. This would require some effort by city planners to do so.. but the recipe is there. Some of the highest rents in the city, a few desirable entertainment areas nearby, and the river of course. When you look at the make up of the Southbank too, its not hindered like Brooklyn was with shotgun platted lots that needed to be purchased overtime. (Ditto LaVilla to a lesser degree). The Southbank has several block to block structures, and large acreage lots that could be extremely well repurposed.
I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but the former Prudential Building has over 10 acres of parking... 10 acres! Imagine what could be done there. The Ameris Bank Building owns 3-4 acres of surface parking... right next to the Main St bridge DT.
It would be almost too good to be true to see, but the Mosh building/friendship park could serve as a nightlife & retail hub being in the location that it is near the Riverwalk & Skyway Station. Overlay the Southbank to get rid of these massive parking lots, however that needs to be done. Allow for dense residential & retail use. There is so much land that could be easily repurposed and it could flourish in the much more immediate term than several other city projects.
The DIA seems to agree somewhat! Here's the part of their "Illustrative Master Plan" for the Southbank (red boxes are "Redevelopment Opportunities":
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/847298939618590760/1096912446398136440/Screenshot_2023-04-15_at_5.38.11_PM.png)
Depending on who ultimately buys up the major parcels at RiversEdge and the School Board building (if that relocation ever happens) will be a big piece of the puzzle. The fact that the DIA sees the Delta hotel as a redevelopment opportunity is very interesting, because it's a lot of land if used properly. In the end there's a reason most of the big condo towers ended up on the Southbank instead of elsewhere (save for Berkman).
In my opinion, there has to be a reason to justify getting rid of the parking even if you eliminate the minimums (which I believe they have). That means mass transportation. A half-hourly "BRT" system and a run-down monorail don't deliver on that, and neither will crewed "self-driving" cars. You already don't
have to build parking in most of downtown, but residents (and lenders for these projects) have to feel confident that they can meet their daily needs and even most recreational needs without driving, and we haven't figured out how to give them that confidence.
Just got back from Denver and they are building like 25 projects like this just around the Union Station.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on April 15, 2023, 05:48:12 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2023, 05:27:43 PM
An update from yesterday's meeting? Conceptual approval granted.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/13/river-city-brewing-development-earns-ddrb-conceptual-approval/
This feels a bit like the Lot J/Shipyards debacle. The initial project fails for various reasons so there's this huge rush to get its replacement through as quickly as possible without fixing any of the fundamental issues, and even though the final project will ultimately be okay, it'll have missed out on a lot of potential improvements that could have been better long term.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on April 13, 2023, 10:45:30 AM
In my opinion the Southbank has the immediate potential to be a high-end residential district. This would require some effort by city planners to do so.. but the recipe is there. Some of the highest rents in the city, a few desirable entertainment areas nearby, and the river of course. When you look at the make up of the Southbank too, its not hindered like Brooklyn was with shotgun platted lots that needed to be purchased overtime. (Ditto LaVilla to a lesser degree). The Southbank has several block to block structures, and large acreage lots that could be extremely well repurposed.
I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but the former Prudential Building has over 10 acres of parking... 10 acres! Imagine what could be done there. The Ameris Bank Building owns 3-4 acres of surface parking... right next to the Main St bridge DT.
It would be almost too good to be true to see, but the Mosh building/friendship park could serve as a nightlife & retail hub being in the location that it is near the Riverwalk & Skyway Station. Overlay the Southbank to get rid of these massive parking lots, however that needs to be done. Allow for dense residential & retail use. There is so much land that could be easily repurposed and it could flourish in the much more immediate term than several other city projects.
The DIA seems to agree somewhat! Here's the part of their "Illustrative Master Plan" for the Southbank (red boxes are "Redevelopment Opportunities":
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/847298939618590760/1096912446398136440/Screenshot_2023-04-15_at_5.38.11_PM.png)
Depending on who ultimately buys up the major parcels at RiversEdge and the School Board building (if that relocation ever happens) will be a big piece of the puzzle. The fact that the DIA sees the Delta hotel as a redevelopment opportunity is very interesting, because it's a lot of land if used properly. In the end there's a reason most of the big condo towers ended up on the Southbank instead of elsewhere (save for Berkman).
In my opinion, there has to be a reason to justify getting rid of the parking even if you eliminate the minimums (which I believe they have). That means mass transportation. A half-hourly "BRT" system and a run-down monorail don't deliver on that, and neither will crewed "self-driving" cars. You already don't have to build parking in most of downtown, but residents (and lenders for these projects) have to feel confident that they can meet their daily needs and even most recreational needs without driving, and we haven't figured out how to give them that confidence.
My only justification for reducing the parking requirements, and also instituting parking maximums perhaps, is because I have never seen a structured lot here full or even close. Maybe the tower trio is the exception, but I am referring to the Baptist Health, OneCall, Ameris, Prudential buildings and the nearby Kings Ave lot. Those lots are massive for the size of the Southbank, all being 500+ spaces I believe. Not to mention the under freeway parking that exists, and the on-street parking that is seemingly on every side road. I think there should be some effort to push for parking agreements or exceptions for lots that are adjacent to these parking structures. The office uses here just don't require 3 spaces per 1,000 sf. I also think there should be exceptions on parking for new projects under a certain size in the DT overlay, like they have in many other urban cities.
^ I don't see how you convince people to demand less parking until JTA has improved urban mass transit. Is there anyway to just take a route that circulates Downtown and the immediate surrounding areas? If not, expect people to continue wanting more, not less, parking.
JTA/City should take a note from St. Augustine. The have a perimeter parking garage (and talking about adding more) with a FREE shuttle to the historic downtown area. Same set up at Disney and so many more places. Folks, this isn't rocket science, just common sense. Unfortunately, our City leaders have next to none.
Back in the 70s and 80s, before the Skyway was operational, JTA offered 3 bus-circulator routes in downtown. The first served parking lots on Liberty at the foot of the Mathews Expressway - one was between the State and Union ramps, in the area that is now full of trees. The second crossed the Main Street Bridge and served the Prudential (original building) and Baptist Hospital, and a parking lot on Prudential and Main, next to what was then the JTA headquarters building. Since these started around 1975-76 the were the Red and Blue routes of the Bicentennial-themed "Spirit Special" shuttle. The last route was added a couple of years later down Riverside Avenue to a parking lot under the Fuller Warren - where RAM is now. Since the Bicentennial was now history, the new route was Riverside, and the other two were redesignated Southside (the -bank term wasn't used then) and Downtown (I think, memory hazy). Also, I think JTA was nervous about naming a route "White"! If memory serves, they were pretty popular. The Plan was to put parking lots around the periphery of downtown, along the major approaches, and have shuttle bus routes, followed by the Skyway in some corridors, to bring people into the core. The shuttle buses (and Skyway) would also allow downtown workers (and the few residents) to move around Downtown, Riverside (Brooklyn), and the Southbank during lunch and other non-commuter hours.
Alas, the Downtown Development Authority (precursor of today's DIA) went off-script and encouraged more garages in the core, making shuttle service to peripheral lots unattractive.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 16, 2023, 03:31:46 PM
^ I don't see how you convince people to demand less parking until JTA has improved urban mass transit. Is there anyway to just take a route that circulates Downtown and the immediate surrounding areas? If not, expect people to continue wanting more, not less, parking.
JTA/City should take a note from St. Augustine. The have a perimeter parking garage (and talking about adding more) with a FREE shuttle to the historic downtown area. Same set up at Disney and so many more places. Folks, this isn't rocket science, just common sense. Unfortunately, our City leaders have next to none.
Hard to convince a majority to do anything locally it seems. But in all seriousness, I believe this to be a case where you just have to live in it to see it. The scooters/e-bikes are honestly a game changer in my opinion compared to connectivity issues of the past.
But more precisely what I'm arguing is that there is currently an immense amount of parking, per acre, in the Southbank and that is completely anecdotal. I can't reference any figure. Just living here, it seems like there is an absurd abundance of parking specifically in this part of town. Plus there is Skyway access.. I have to think if there is a place to start implementing strict parking mins & maxs, its the Southbank. I could see a mini boom occurring here, and I think the opportunity is knocking with RiversEdge, this project and contributing projects nearby.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 16, 2023, 04:25:12 PM
Back in the 70s and 80s, before the Skyway was operational, JTA offered 3 bus-circulator routes in downtown. The first served parking lots on Liberty at the foot of the Mathews Expressway - one was between the State and Union ramps, in the area that is now full of trees. The second crossed the Main Street Bridge and served the Prudential (original building) and Baptist Hospital, and a parking lot on Prudential and Main, next to what was then the JTA headquarters building. Since these started around 1975-76 the were the Red and Blue routes of the Bicentennial-themed "Spirit Special" shuttle. The last route was added a couple of years later down Riverside Avenue to a parking lot under the Fuller Warren - where RAM is now. Since the Bicentennial was now history, the new route was Riverside, and the other two were redesignated Southside (the -bank term wasn't used then) and Downtown (I think, memory hazy). Also, I think JTA was nervous about naming a route "White"! If memory serves, they were pretty popular. The Plan was to put parking lots around the periphery of downtown, along the major approaches, and have shuttle bus routes, followed by the Skyway in some corridors, to bring people into the core. The shuttle buses (and Skyway) would also allow downtown workers (and the few residents) to move around Downtown, Riverside (Brooklyn), and the Southbank during lunch and other non-commuter hours.
Alas, the Downtown Development Authority (precursor of today's DIA) went off-script and encouraged more garages in the core, making shuttle service to peripheral lots unattractive.
Any significant (and some minor) urban core areas I have been have had urban transit circulators. Jax seems to be an anomaly today. Just don't get why we can't implement tried and true solutions to build up a downtown... and this is just one more example. I bet DIA and JTA hardly talk to each other based on this alone. Or, neither is smart enough to address it. Either way, another Downtown failing.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on April 16, 2023, 07:07:56 PM
Hard to convince a majority to do anything locally it seems. But in all seriousness, I believe this to be a case where you just have to live in it to see it. The scooters/e-bikes are honestly a game changer in my opinion compared to connectivity issues of the past.
But more precisely what I'm arguing is that there is currently an immense amount of parking, per acre, in the Southbank and that is completely anecdotal. I can't reference any figure. Just living here, it seems like there is an absurd abundance of parking specifically in this part of town. Plus there is Skyway access.. I have to think if there is a place to start implementing strict parking mins & maxs, its the Southbank. I could see a mini boom occurring here, and I think the opportunity is knocking with RiversEdge, this project and contributing projects nearby.
I would not consider the scooters/e-bikes a game changer for much more than males under the age of about 30. The vast majority of people who are eating out, going to shows and museums, physically limited, not comfortable with the risk of using the devices, etc. are not going to be using these "vehicles" in significant numbers... especially in all types of weather or when required clothing is much more than street casual. And, I would think it would take maybe thousands of scooters to make a real impact on a vibrant Downtown. Where would we station all of them and could the streets safely handle that load?
The Skyway is blocks away from many areas and doesn't run to the depths of Riverside, San Marco, Springfield or the East Side or even close to much of the Northbank. Some people might also question its safety if the vehicles are unmanned, especially at night.
I think that Jax needs to look at longer hours and more bus headways, at least 7 days x 16+ hours, so people don't have to memorize schedules, wait more than 20 minutes for the next transit or worry they can't return to their starting points because service is shut down for the day. People today prize simplicity and convenience above all else.
Add it up, and the scooters and Skyway are bit players, in my mind, for what would really be needed to get people to not demand parking Downtown. The quickest, easiest, most affordable way, for now, is to use buses to get the job done. Prove out the need, and other solutions like trolleys, etc. might be the ultimate follow ups.
I think that the scooter/e-bike item is more of an issue here locally. JAX being one of the worse cities for hit & runs, lack of bicycle ROWs, and lack of sidewalk connectivity in the entire country. In Miami, NYC, LA & other dense cities.. you see a lot wider range of people able to use these easier means of transportation which allow for, often, more freedoms than a car in a local environment. The Southbank has a version of this with the Riverwalk.. I think to label these transportation devices to men under 30 is somewhat concerning to hear given the large number of other places which that doesn't seem to be a thing at all. Maybe we can chalk this up to another way crime hinders JAX because I just don't buy that argument.
I also am of the opinion that buses are not going to change the public transit dynamics of a small, hyper focused area. My argument stems from the fact that there needs to be more comprehensive parking criteria in specific parts of town. It is great the downtown overlay exists, but do "we" really think that LaVilla or the Sports District should have the same parking criteria as the Southbank? I don't. For all of the Southbank's shortcomings, it has 3 Skyway stations & some of the largest parking structures in all of JAX. My argument is not for people to not have cars & a place to park.. I am arguing that there is already a TON of parking. Just walk around the area..
When I goto LaVilla, there is an obvious need for more parking with every new development. I just can't be convinced of that in the Southbank. Am I arguing for no parking? No. Im arguing for less.