QuoteThe Latham Plaza parking lot has plans to be developed into retail and restaurant space and a parking garage that are already approved. The city plans put out a request for proposals in May.
Right next door, proposals for Latham Plaza would add a water fountain, entertainment spot, and area for kids to play.
One proposal for the pavilion would add tiers, or levels, for people to sit on, similar to an amphitheater. Those plans are still in the early stages and need council approval.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/proposed-changes-jacksonville-beach-pavilion-181034352.html
The beach has the biggest NIMBY crowd I've ever seen. Nothing about the proposed improvements would prevent "festivals" from taking place. If you've ever been to one of these events, it's one stage, some food trucks, beer tents, and a Ferris wheel. All of that could work around these improvements. The beaches area needs a master plan immediately. Allow the Jax beach town center to densify and increase height limits and become the commercial center of the area. South Jax beach is already one of the top 3 densest neighborhoods in Jax. Allow smart, dense, mixed use development in the town center area befitting of one of the largest beachfront cities on the east coast.
Are there drawings of the proposed changes available online (including the Latham Plaza parcels)? It's hard to judge the validity of the comments (pro or con) without being able to see what they are talking about.
Some data points for consideration
- Total Latham Plaza parcel including parking lot and a sliver south of Sneakers is 3.15 acres.
- Actual Latham Plaza acreage is about 1.1 acres
- The current parking lot has 196 spaces and takes up 1.7 acres
- Seawalk pavilion parcel including stage, BOH, and event lawn is 1.5 acres
I think the bigger issue is how much of the most central part of Jax beach is surface parking or vacant land. Adding a parking structure that could hold 300-400 cars and adding retail fronting 1st and 2nd streets is a much better use of that site than what's currently there.
I would be surprised that the city would spend what sounds like a pretty penny on making these changes with zero consideration as to how to support festivals afterward.
Also the mayor's point here:
Quote"It's going to engage and activate it all the days; the weeks that we don't have special events of big festivals," she said. "I mean it's a beautiful park already — but to see that better utilized year-round when we don't have festivals."
Seems pretty important! We've been burned before with chasing inactive "flex space" instead of active park space. When we're talking about what is essentially a Central Park for the Beaches having mixed uses within that is valuable.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 04, 2023, 09:48:30 AM
The beach has the biggest NIMBY crowd I've ever seen. Nothing about the proposed improvements would prevent "festivals" from taking place. If you've ever been to one of these events, it's one stage, some food trucks, beer tents, and a Ferris wheel. All of that could work around these improvements. The beaches area needs a master plan immediately. Allow the Jax beach town center to densify and increase height limits and become the commercial center of the area. South Jax beach is already one of the top 3 densest neighborhoods in Jax. Allow smart, dense, mixed use development in the town center area befitting of one of the largest beachfront cities on the east coast.
I've never been more disappointed in an area than learning why the old Kmart at Atlantic & 3rd is still empty despite housing prices being sky-high out there. We pour millions in state, local, & federal dollars into developing infrastructure and restoring beaches and get no return so that rich people can expand their million-dollar mansions.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on April 05, 2023, 11:40:08 AM
I've never been more disappointed in an area than learning why the old Kmart at Atlantic & 3rd is still empty despite housing prices being sky-high out there. We pour millions in state, local, & federal dollars into developing infrastructure and restoring beaches and get no return so that rich people can expand their million-dollar mansions.
I've been stewing over this for the past few days, and if more is not done to increase density and public infrastructure in the Jax Beach area, the beach will become largely inaccessible to parts of the city.
Ponte Vedra already is for drive through only enjoyment for non-residents. Public beach access is few and far between and there is no public parking. Between Micklers and 30th south there's almost no way to enjoy that stretch of beach unless you live there.
Jax beach is currently very accessible, but little has been done to increase public infrastructure and amenities except for the paving of 1 vacant lot on 2nd street in the last few years. Meanwhile, 2 hotels have gone up in the area, one of which took away public parking.
Neptune beach is largely inaccessible due to increasingly stringent parking policies in the neighborhood and lack of supply. Atlantic is developing and becoming more affluent and crowded.
Ideally you'd have commuter rail running east to west down JTB and then a local line running north to Mayport, but short of that I think a parking garage with street-front retail is an ok compromise.
I don't even think you need to go that far. (not to mention that JTB as a corridor is honestly not that great for commuter rail aside from being straight).
Just run the First Coast Flyer every ten minutes (as promised) and work to reduce the end-to-end travel time and improve transfers to other bus lines (that should also be more frequent). Also (very importantly) actually market to people how it is possible to go to the beach without your car.
If you want to be radical there, take one lane in each direction on Beach Blvd plus the median and reconstruct it as a center-running busway with the stops moved to the median. Odds are you'll be able to move people faster than their cars could. If you really want to go crazy, do that and gradually transition Beach from being an at-grade highway to an actual boulevard with wide sidewalks and mixed use development. That last part will take a while but it'd be so worth it. And if demand calls for it, you can then take that median section and convert it to light rail or even elevated metro.
QuoteIdeally you'd have commuter rail running east to west down JTB and then a local line running north to Mayport, but short of that I think a parking garage with street-front retail is an ok compromise.
Do you realize this roughly existed some 80 years or so ago? Check out the history of the rail line that ran down current Beach Blvd. and turned north to Mayport long ago, as I recall. Our ancestors look to have been much smarter about transit than all the "genius" consultants today that make millions in fees "not solving" real transit issues. Not all their fault. Politicos pay the consultants to tell them what developers want, not the general public, but shame on the consultants for selling out. Just look at the crew advising on AV's.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 06, 2023, 12:50:00 AM
QuoteIdeally you'd have commuter rail running east to west down JTB and then a local line running north to Mayport, but short of that I think a parking garage with street-front retail is an ok compromise.
Do you realize this roughly existed some 80 years or so ago? Check out the history of the rail line that ran down current Beach Blvd. and turned north to Mayport long ago, as I recall. Our ancestors look to have been much smarter about transit than all the "genius" consultants today that make millions in fees "not solving" real transit issues. Not all their fault. Politicos pay the consultants to tell them what developers want, not the general public, but shame on the consultants for selling out. Just look at the crew advising on AV's.
Everything with jax beach starts and ends with the 35' height limit. They want to be like CA beach towns with single family housing and one or two small retail hubs. The problem will only get worse with time with more $1M townhomes and $2M+ new construction homes.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 06, 2023, 12:50:00 AM
QuoteIdeally you'd have commuter rail running east to west down JTB and then a local line running north to Mayport, but short of that I think a parking garage with street-front retail is an ok compromise.
Do you realize this roughly existed some 80 years or so ago? Check out the history of the rail line that ran down current Beach Blvd. and turned north to Mayport long ago, as I recall. Our ancestors look to have been much smarter about transit than all the "genius" consultants today that make millions in fees "not solving" real transit issues.
I'm well aware of how the history of the beach is tied to the railroads. The origin of Neptune beach is due to a guy not wanting to walk to Mayport to catch the train. He lived where One Ocean is today and built a station on the existing rail line so that the train would have to stop. He named the station Neptune and the town grew around it. If you look at old photos Neptune and Ruby Beaches they are built with a walkable scale and look like great communities. Nowadays there's 11 miles of sprawl connecting Jax Beach to DT Jax via 6 lane highway. I'd love to restore the old rail line down Beach, but I feel like it would be easier to go down JTB where there are no signaled intersections.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 07, 2023, 10:17:00 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 06, 2023, 12:50:00 AM
QuoteIdeally you'd have commuter rail running east to west down JTB and then a local line running north to Mayport, but short of that I think a parking garage with street-front retail is an ok compromise.
Do you realize this roughly existed some 80 years or so ago? Check out the history of the rail line that ran down current Beach Blvd. and turned north to Mayport long ago, as I recall. Our ancestors look to have been much smarter about transit than all the "genius" consultants today that make millions in fees "not solving" real transit issues.
I'm well aware of how the history of the beach is tied to the railroads. The origin of Neptune beach is due to a guy not wanting to walk to Mayport to catch the train. He lived where One Ocean is today and built a station on the existing rail line so that the train would have to stop. He named the station Neptune and the town grew around it. If you look at old photos Neptune and Ruby Beaches they are built with a walkable scale and look like great communities. Nowadays there's 11 miles of sprawl connecting Jax Beach to DT Jax via 6 lane highway. I'd love to restore the old rail line down Beach, but I feel like it would be easier to go down JTB where there are no signaled intersections.
In theory yes, but if you were to actually try to build it you'd probably run into a lot of challenges that make it less worthwhile, at least in the shorter term. You'd either have to build it in the median, which adds difficulties for accessing stations and means having to reconstruct parts of the highway, or you do it on the side (Brightline-esque) which makes it slightly easier to access stations but now you have to deal with all the on- and off-ramps. Either way you're spending a lot of train money on building highway instead of train.
Beach or Atlantic would be easier in terms of being able to take the median plus some lanes (see Van Ness BRT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkMorBpN5c8&t=343s) in San Francisco) and then either you can build a light rail style line with intersections and signal priority or just stick columns in the median and do elevated rail. Plus, because they're arterial roads and not outright highways you can put development right around the stations without then also being disrupted by the highway. Creating a median busway or rail line on those roads is probably easier and more productive than using JTB.