Wow, didn't see this one coming...
QuoteThe World Golf Hall of Fame in St. Augustine will close in 2023 and relocate to Pinehurst, North Carolina, the United States Golf Association announced July 20.
Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/world-golf-hall-of-fame-closing-in-st-augustine-to-move-back-to-north-carolina
Seems like a pretty gaping hole for that area. Not sure how useful the space would be for much else. Also bad for all the surrounding development: the Renaissance hotel & convention space, the IMAX theater, heck the courses themselves? The USGA just skipping town as soon as legally possible just seems like a bad sign.
Definitely seems like a bad sign. That general development always has seemed to struggle. Hard to imagine a bright future with the anchor abandoning ship. Time for a complete makeover.
Doesn't feel like a huge surprise. It never really seemed to be much of a draw, even when it first opened. Someone is going to have to get creative with that space.
Quote from: pierre on July 20, 2022, 02:23:19 PM
Doesn't feel like a huge surprise. It never really seemed to be much of a draw, even when it first opened. Someone is going to have to get creative with that space.
Turns out "someone" is St. Johns County, which owns at least the land that the USGA was leasing. The county also owns the land where the hotel and convention space sit. The World Golf Foundation owns the parking lots around the central lake, while WGV Commercial LLC owns the individual retail buildings. Honors Golf owns the courses and then St. Johns Northwest Masters Association owns the surrounding property that aren't houses or condos or apartments or the Westminster place. Quite a few property owners involved.
Although, if all these groups can come together around doing something else it could be nice. Has easy highway access, plenty of schools nearby, Costco across the street. As long as they don't lose the amenities they already have and aren't afraid of going big someone will probably build on it.
I thought I'd be torn about this decision given that I lived around the area in Mill Creek for a bit during WGV's early years, but I totally understand the move. When it opened, golf was a much more popular sport thanks to Tiger Woods and gated golf communities were springing up all over NE Florida so it made sense for the county to provide incentives and build the infrastructure to make this happen. Unfortunately, even with its convenient and easy-access location; the big reduction of big-time events held there, the PGA moving their media and production facilities to Ponte Vedra Beach, declining corporate sponsorship, the declining interest of a younger generation watching and playing golf, and the PGA leadership's waning promotion and support does not warrant maintaining a museum of such size and stature. It certainly does not help it's cause when the PGA announced this year the long-delayed induction of its most famous golfer to their Hall Of Fame, they had the ceremony NOT in the Hall Of Fame he was being inducted in.
But this interesting fact really proved the viability of a project like this: Since the time the World Golf Hall of Fame started construction up to now, St. Augustine, just 15 or so miles down the road, has seen an increase of over a million yearly visitors! And yet all those visitors still couldn't keep the Hall of Fame's attendance from cratering. What makes you think any other location for something like this would be that more successful?
At least the county got a new convention center, highway interchange, and a hotel resort worthy enough for the World Champion New England Patriots to stay in during their Super Bowl appearance in Jax. A more scaled down version will probably never be bonkers successful, but hopefully a lot more manageable.
It was nice while it lasted. Now see it before it's gone!
I read the State was subsidizing this to the tune of $50 million and it had been identified as one of the worst uses of State money ever based on low attendance. Its move has been rumored ever since the PGA Tour declined to extend its lease past 2023. It was just a matter of where it was going to move to.
The PGA Tour noted that interest in Hall of Fames has changed over the years, as well. I take this as interest and/or attendance has been on the wane, generally. With the internet and NFT's today, not sure what the urgency is to seeing one of these :). And, I wonder if young people really care about anything that isn't virtual.
QuoteThe World Golf Village opened more than 24 years ago at what was believed to be a strategic spot by I-95, with a three-day festival that included parties, cover bands, fireworks, the induction of Nick Faldo and Johnny Miller into the Hall of Fame and the challenge in a commercial by charter member Gary Player: "for the love of golf, you've got to go."
Not enough have.
The World Golf Foundation announced on Wednesday that the Hall of Fame and Museum building, which has more than 35,000 square feet of exhibit space, will close by the end of 2023, apparently a victim of dwindling attendance that saw visitation drop from around 280,000 at its peak to 60,000 last year.
https://www.staugustine.com/story/sports/golf/2022/07/20/st-augustine-based-world-golf-hall-fame-museum-close-2023/10090332002/
Too bad the place couldn't hold on until that Buc-ee's/Costco convergence took hold. Hopefully the Imax stays. That is a unique place to watch feature films.
It was doomed from the start. The type of person that would visit the World Golf Hall of Fame would typically be a flyer, not someone driving down 95. Despite having the Players and PGA Tour HQ, Jax is not even close to being one of the most popular golf areas in Florida. There are around 1250 courses in Florida and only about 70 in the entire Greater Jacksonville Area (includes Palm Coast). There are 160 courses alone in Palm Beach County and Orlando has a ton of courses too. The Jax area only has 3 courses in the state top 50 and another 4 between 50-100. Most people that visit or live in Florida to golf do not even drive by the WGV or live anywhere close to it.
The other big issue is that the courses at the WGV simply aren't very good and are way overpriced. Neither course is in Golf Digest's Top 45 courses in Florida list and in another list, The King and Bear is ranked the #98 course and Slammer and Squire is unranked. I'm going to Streamsong this weekend (a resort that has stolen the WGV's lunch money) and it has 3 of the top 10 courses in Florida. I'm playing the #5 and #7 courses in the entire state for less than the unranked Slammer and Squire.
Despite what Jax Jerseylicious posted, golf as a sport is doing very well. Bad courses in bad developments are and have been struggling for a long time, but good to great courses are shattering their yearly round records. The failure of the WGV has nothing to do with golf's (non-existent) decline and everything to do with a poor location and poor execution.
County leads need to look no further than Orlando's Baldwin Park for what to do with this space... Fill in some of the parking with condos and apartments, add a grocery store, convert a store into a drug store, and the rest will fill in naturally. This could turn into a major tax stream if they do it right, due to it's ease of access and nearby amenities.
QuoteI read the State was subsidizing this to the tune of $50 million and it had been identified as one of the worst uses of State money ever based on low attendance.
WOW!! i assume most of that is the Convention Center? How big is it?
Quote from: vicupstate on July 21, 2022, 12:02:42 PM
QuoteI read the State was subsidizing this to the tune of $50 million and it had been identified as one of the worst uses of State money ever based on low attendance.
WOW!! i assume most of that is the Convention Center? How big is it?
Here is some more info via the Jacksonville Business Journal (emphasis added):
Quote....PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan alluded to the facility's potential relocation during a press conference in March. At the time, Monahan said the organization was committed to the World Golf Hall of Fame through 2023, when the Hall of Fame's lease for the land on which it sits expires. But after that, Monahan said then, "we're looking at all of our options as we go forward."
"The business of the Hall of Fame and the way that people consume hall of fames has changed, and we just want to make certain that any decision that we make about the next 25 years maximizes our ability to showcase the incredible careers and impact that every single member that's in the Hall of Fame has had on our game," Monahan said in March.
The World Golf Hall of Fame has drawn the ire of some Floridians in recent years as attendance has waned.
An examination by the Florida Policy Institute called the state's commitment to $50 million in subsidies for the facility "one of the worst public investments" compared to other sports-related programs that also received subsidies and estimated that Florida taxpayers lose an average of 8 cents on every dollar invested in the facility, JBJ previously reported....
....The Hall of Fame is separate from the Renaissance Hotel, the St. Johns Country Convention Center and the golf courses at the St. Johns County site. While the World Golf Foundation owns the Hall of Fame building, the county owns the land, which the foundation leases....
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2022/07/20/world-golf-hall-of-fame-pinehurst.html
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on July 20, 2022, 04:43:25 PM
Unfortunately, even with its convenient and easy-access location; the big reduction of big-time events held there, the PGA moving their media and production facilities to Ponte Vedra Beach, declining corporate sponsorship, the declining interest of a younger generation watching and playing golf, and the PGA leadership's waning promotion and support does not warrant maintaining a museum of such size and stature. It certainly does not help it's cause when the PGA announced this year the long-delayed induction of its most famous golfer to their Hall Of Fame, they had the ceremony NOT in the Hall Of Fame he was being inducted in.
As CityLife pointed out, the sport itself still seems to be doing pretty well. They're relocating this museum to a brand new facility in North Carolina, new golf course communities are still being constructed, the Players fills up every year, the PGA Tour
just moved into a brand new headquarters designed by
Norman Foster. Clearly a lot of money is still moving around somehow.
Quote from: CityLife on July 21, 2022, 08:39:28 AM
It was doomed from the start. The type of person that would visit the World Golf Hall of Fame would typically be a flyer, not someone driving down 95. Despite having the Players and PGA Tour HQ, Jax is not even close to being one of the most popular golf areas in Florida. There are around 1250 courses in Florida and only about 70 in the entire Greater Jacksonville Area (includes Palm Coast). There are 160 courses alone in Palm Beach County and Orlando has a ton of courses too. The Jax area only has 3 courses in the state top 50 and another 4 between 50-100. Most people that visit or live in Florida to golf do not even drive by the WGV or live anywhere close to it.
Yeah, seems like the combo of not being convenient enough to drive to from JAX and the potential driver not likely to care is a pretty badly-planned mistake.
Quote
The other big issue is that the courses at the WGV simply aren't very good and are way overpriced. Neither course is in Golf Digest's Top 45 courses in Florida list and in another list, The King and Bear is ranked the #98 course and Slammer and Squire is unranked. I'm going to Streamsong this weekend (a resort that has stolen the WGV's lunch money) and it has 3 of the top 10 courses in Florida. I'm playing the #5 and #7 courses in the entire state for less than the unranked Slammer and Squire.
I wonder if they'd actually shut the courses down with the museum or just keep trying to run them. Knowing how badly the site plan has performed (worked with an org that considered getting retail/office space in the complex, site access was a big factor for declining), and seeing the housing market here, it seems like the returns would be a lot bigger to just get rid of the whole thing and rebrand entirely. Sure, you'll lose like, the Caddyshack but odds are that's going anyway.
I don't think the county is creative enough to push for it, but some rethinking of the meager transit services in that area could enable ditching the parking minimums and really maximizing land use. Hardest part might be managing the complaints from the few people who did move there for golf but that is manageable.
Quote from: vicupstate on July 21, 2022, 12:02:42 PM
QuoteI read the State was subsidizing this to the tune of $50 million and it had been identified as one of the worst uses of State money ever based on low attendance.
WOW!! i assume most of that is the Convention Center? How big is it?
The hotel's website (https://www.marriott.com/en-us/hotels/jaxbr-world-golf-village-renaissance-st-augustine-resort/events/) calls it "the largest convention center between Atlanta and Orlando," though I'm not sure how they calculate that, made up of a large (26k sq ft) ballroom, small (7k sq ft) ballroom, other meeting rooms and some outdoor space. It all comes out to about 45,000 square feet.
Here's an article about the purchase of the commercial space a few years ago. $4 million seems awfully cheap.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/shops-at-world-golf-village-sold-for-dollar4m
I think St. Johns County should look at running a free or nominal fee hourly shuttle from the WGV to Downtown St. Augustine. This has several advantages. It helps eliminate the perpetual parking and traffic problems in downtown St. Augustine, it helps pull more people off of I-95 to visit St. Augustine, it provides a larger number of people to shop in the "village" adding value to the tax rolls and real estate and it provides an activity/amenity to attract more conventions to the convention center. Going one step further, add shuttle stops at the St. Augustine Amphitheater, lighthouse and Anastasia Island State Park, for even more reasons to convene at the WGV site.
If successful, maybe Visit Jax and JTA could be inspired to do something similar around Jax ;D.
I used to deliver mail there when I worked in the PGATOUR mailroom in college. It was always a poor location. I guess hindsight is 20-20 but they picked the one part of either St. Johns or Duval County that never took off. Plus it was about as far as it could be from the airport and every other attraction in the region.
If the entire complex at WGV is shuttered/slated for redevelopment, the Imax theater should be incorporated into the new MOSH facility downtown.
St. Johns County is planning town halls to discuss future plans for World Golf Village.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jul/27/st-johns-to-hold-town-hall-meetings-on-future-of-world-golf-hall-of-fame-site/
Sun-Ray Cinema has expressed an interest in taking over the IMAX theater. The county has created a website (https://www.sjcwgv.com/) for public involvement.
The museum and theater are preparing to close tomorrow.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/31/world-golf-hall-of-fame-imax-theater-offering-free-admission-as-they-prepare-to-close-at-6-pm-sept-1/
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 21, 2022, 04:46:16 PM
I think St. Johns County should look at running a free or nominal fee hourly shuttle from the WGV to Downtown St. Augustine. This has several advantages. It helps eliminate the perpetual parking and traffic problems in downtown St. Augustine, it helps pull more people off of I-95 to visit St. Augustine, it provides a larger number of people to shop in the "village" adding value to the tax rolls and real estate and it provides an activity/amenity to attract more conventions to the convention center. Going one step further, add shuttle stops at the St. Augustine Amphitheater, lighthouse and Anastasia Island State Park, for even more reasons to convene at the WGV site.
If successful, maybe Visit Jax and JTA could be inspired to do something similar around Jax ;D.
"Fun" fact, it's not quite hourly (more like 2-and-a-half-hourly), and it stops at Buccee's instead of deviating all the way into WGV, but St. Johns County's Sunshine Bus does actually run their Purple Line (https://sunshinebus.net/schedules/) to that area on its way to Palencia. Here's the schedule:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1146998491294474360/Schedule-Purple-v2021.png)
Quote from: jaxjaguar on July 21, 2022, 11:16:46 AM
County leads need to look no further than Orlando's Baldwin Park for what to do with this space... Fill in some of the parking with condos and apartments, add a grocery store, convert a store into a drug store, and the rest will fill in naturally. This could turn into a major tax stream if they do it right, due to it's ease of access and nearby amenities.
Pretty much this, frankly. They're already developing suburbs around it, this could be the one spot in that area with an urban core and do pretty well once amenities like the theater and perhaps a new museum tenant get back on their feet. There used to be a Publix near the entrance that ended up moving down the street to Murabella, getting a lot of housing in that area would really make the case for a grocer to return, whether Aldi or another brand.
^ The purple line used to run up to the Avenues Mall, where it connected with JTA service
Update after the public meetings the last few days.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/sep/28/epic-theaters-interested-in-world-golf-hall-of-fame-imax/
Two theaters asking to take over the IMAX, two churches (including one already operating at WGV) talking about opening or expanding there, mention of the idea of a new middle school. However:
QuoteMost people commenting during both sessions said they own homes or condominiums in the World Golf Village area. Many said they moved there to retire because the area is focused on golf, with two 18-hole courses, a golf resort and convention hotel and the Hall of Fame.
Keeping the IMAX Theater in operation received unanimous support from residents, as did the necessity to avoid doing anything that would add to traffic in the area.
Several residents cited the opening of Buc-ee's, a convenience store with 104 fueling stations, across the street from the World Golf Village entrance that leads to their neighborhoods as already causing too much traffic.
Comment suggesting opening a public middle school at World Golf Village were balanced by other residents opposed because of the traffic it would likely bring.
[...]
Comment against another church also focused on traffic issues, particularly Wednesday evenings and on Sundays when services are conducted.
Suggests to me the interest is going to lean towards just letting the area decline for the sake of NIMBYism, which seems like a real shame.
^ As someone that confronts so much traffic in a residential (rural when we moved there) area that it takes more time than not to navigate it, including street lights that are now timed for multiple minutes before changing and non-lighted intersections that don't offer traffic breaks for minutes at a time, I consider this a legitimate issue.
Nothing is more frustrating than spending an inordinate amount of time in traffic due to poorly managed overbuilding/overdevelopment, with no alternative to work around it. Residents are often powerless to push back since developers own NE Florida.
Resisting traffic from a Buc-cees, Costco, church or private school isn't going to lead to the decline of a car-oriented suburb where the residents commute out of the area for employment, shopping, activities and the "school or church of their choice." Black Hammock Island is about as remote as you can get around here and, from what I have read, homes there are selling for record prices. People maybe actually be paying a premium to run away from development and traffic.
I might add that traffic creation often brings other issues like noise (try living near a busy road nowadays), pollution, delays of emergency vehicles, safety issues for walkers, bikers and kids, more accidents, road rage and transient traffic that is just passing through with no value-add.
I expect more and more NIMBYism as our population grows via unbridled development. One day, Marcus, you may even join their ranks 8). LOL, you may also find as you "age," you put ever greater value on your time on this earth and sitting in traffic is not how you want to spend big chunks of it.
Rather than blame residents, we need to blame, as is usually done on the Jaxson, the real culprits: JTA, FDOT, city planners and rubber-stamp public officials who don't provide for multiple good community movements (mass transit, walkable neighborhoods, safe bicycle pathways, etc.) when developing our communities.
I don't think anything we have in Florida can be considered "overdevelopment" on any scale of density. You do, however, perfectly demonstrated the inherent limitations of suburbanization. You just said the area you moved to was initially rural. Presumably other people made that same decision. Are we from a public policy standpoint supposed to decide that because you happened to move first the entire area is supposed to be encased in amber for your driving pleasure?
Your mention of Black Hammock Island also exemplifies the cycle of suburbs. First it was Arlington and Murray Hill, then Baymeadows and the Southside, then San Pablo and St. Johns and Fleming Island, and now Governors Park and Wildlight and Silverleaf and perhaps Black Hammock. The new single family homes get built further and further away, and (save for certain enclaves) the investment moves further and further outside the city itself. Arlington was originally a brand new suburb, and now it's an area with a CRA that needs it. Eventually the place gets old, and developers build new houses elsewhere (because those suburbs don't allow infill in place) and the investment moves elsewhere.
I certainly agree that officials in this region have failed to deliver on things like mass transit or better walkability, but the people opposing things like trying to leverage the already-extant investment in World Golf Village aren't asking for that, they're asking to just leave things as they are. More often than not, the kinds of people opposing any additions to WGV are the same ones claiming that mass transit would bring crime, or that roads pay for themselves, or that changing anything would bring too much traffic.
I can't say I see myself joining the ranks of NIMBYism, because it's too easy to look at places like California to see what NIMBYism has led to: unaffordable housing, residents being pushed completely out of the state, college students declared pollution by courts. St. Johns already has some of the highest median housing prices in the state, and refusing to build at all is only going to make that much, much worse.
^Marcus, when people invest in a living space/place, they are buying into a certain environment. Naturally, if someone works to change that environment, you can expect resistance in most cases. It's about managing expectations and human nature.
Moving on, there is only so much real estate and they aren't making any more of it (other than, maybe, if a volcano's lava flows to the sea). Meanwhile, population continues to increase. The laws of supply and demand indicate that if you have fixed supply and growing demand, pricing is going to increase. Yes, you can slow or defer increases with increased efficiencies, in this case, greater densities. We do need to recognize that there are limits, too, to increasing density and, one day, the only way to reduce pricing is to reduce demand which will only be accomplished by limiting population growth. In some world cities, that breaking point may be here or approaching. By example, Manhattan is likely the epitome of near maximum density so not sure how many more people can be crammed into there. As a result, I wouldn't expect to ever see "affordable" housing there.
I have no problem with greater densities but that is not for every situation or for everyone. And, there are trade offs and limits to density. For some, they consider it a life style/quality of life issue... that is, some want to live in the middle of nowhere and, per above, others want to live in the heart of Manhattan. Different strokes for different folks.
So, it is not unreasonable that their is going to be push back from some quarters in this regard. You see this in zoning fights and expanding resistance to growing traffic generators.
The best way to drive increased density is to provide mass transit and walkability options and incentivize it vs. subsidizing lower density as we mostly do now in Florida and much of the U.S. These are public policy and city planning initiatives, not neighborhood ones. Those who value time and affordability will voluntarily pursue density at that point without it being forced upon them.
If we had appropriate leadership, we would implement in the urban core/downtown consistent street level zoning, walkable streets, plentiful greenspaces and robust mass transit that works (not fantasy AV's). At the same time, we should stop adding lanes to existing roads or building new ones for developers that encourage urban sprawl. It's not rocket science. Do this and the increase in density will take care of itself. When I have visited cities in foreign countries, I have seen how well this works. Not so much in the U.S.
Most of the above is "Mom and apple pie" and it is frustrating that we don't see our leadership being effective in this regard. I think this is where we can all find the most agreement 8).
People need to do their homework, if they are concerned about traffic at that interchange. It was always supposed to be a busy area. Years ago, St Johns was dreaming of it becoming a comparable to Town Center. Buccee's should be the least of their worries. There's a lot more approved and zoned to come. Imagine if WGI had been a success and was built out as originally planned. It would be a complete cluster.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 30, 2023, 06:41:19 PM
People need to do their homework, if they are concerned about traffic at that interchange. It was always supposed to be a busy area. Years ago, St Johns was dreaming of it becoming a comparable to Town Center. Buccee's should be the least of their worries. There's a lot more approved and zoned to come. Imagine if WGI had been a success and was built out as originally planned. It would be a complete cluster.
Agree with this. I always tell family and friends to be cautious buying a house near vacant land as you never know what will happen next. If you move into a subdivision surrounded by farms or forests, you can bet more subdivisions will be built on that land and you need to be prepared for the related traffic.
My comments were more about adding development beyond what is the projected character of the area. If it was tradition that an area was hosting neighborhood strip centers and I got a Costco, Bass Pro Shops and Buc-cees instead that generate far more traffic being regional destinations, I would say that is subject to question. If you have ever been around the Costco's in Duval you know that traffic can back up into major roads with no way to get around it adding much time to your travels, even if it is just to get from one side of their entry point to the other.
A decade ago, they were hoping that the Costco, Buc-cees, etc. would be a shopping center that would rival St. Johns Town Center. That would have dumped more traffic than one could ever imagine at that interchange. Same goes for the original WGV and the hall of fame. If it were developed with the amount of retail and dining proposed, it would be a nightmare today. The FLU has suggested that this would be a regional center of impact, at some point, for decades. No one should be surprised or fill tricked about a Buc-cees or Costco opening up. Expect more to come.
No matter what they come up with out there, I hope it includes a more robust arterial roadway network and something that crosses I-95, allowing people an alternative to International Golf Parkway.