I attended the first of FDOT's Rail & Transit Regional Listening Sessions, which was this last Tuesday at the FDOT office. Light crowd, which was to be expected for a meeting at 1pm on a Tuesday. Apparently they expected more transportation officials, which was strange since JTA was holding its board meeting around the same time that day. Of those who did appear, it was a mix of local officials, industry members and then me, the only private citizen.
Anyhow, it was interesting. There was discussion about what the state is looking for when it comes to transit and rail planning, and then they really looked to the people in the room to bring their suggestions. They had several maps of the passenger rail, transit, and freight networks that they allowed people to note station needs, safety issues and service gaps in, as well as boards for sticky-noted suggestions. The maps were interesting because of what they didn't include as much as what they did. Sorry about the pictures, they were taken in a rush right before the boards were put into the car of one of the FDOT employees.
One of the most interesting maps was the passenger rail proposal map:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/847298939618590760/959255413197537300/1F169CBD-98C5-428B-8EF8-CE634FE2C7C5.jpg)
Please note that this includes intercity trains, regional trains, and "urban rail" like the Skyway. FDOT did not draw the Sunset Limited route on the map they brought, so people re-added it. Other suggestions included an interesting line to the airport, a line to the beach on either JTB or Beach Boulevard (formerly an FEC line), the high-speed proposals to Atlanta via either Macon or Savannah, plus mention of Charleston. I drew a line I'd thought of before to Gainesville that someone suggested extending to Tampa. And of course, someone included the suggestion to expand Brightline to Jacksonville. Obviously there was a lot of daydreaming involved, but having the ideas in the state's minds couldn't hurt. Here were the stickies for passenger rail:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/959255414430658660/9929B2E8-B6B4-49FB-8D28-60351E6CC2C5.jpg?width=1056&height=540)
Next there was transit:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/959255413856030730/2DED4C1C-D2FB-44C9-B2D6-CC660CAFC640.jpg?width=933&height=570)
There were fewer mapped suggestions here, although I included the suggestion that JTA should operate all service in the four-county area (a suggestion that was well-received, but ultimately noted to be the decision of the counties) and an expansion of service across county lines to that end. I thought it was unfortunate no one from Gainesville seems to have made it, as they are also part of FDOT District 2. Here were the stickies:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/959255417567985704/B0E9EBA0-51AD-48EB-A938-650E233B0AEE.jpg?width=1056&height=409)
Finally there was freight rail. The only mapped proposal was to actually build the freight bypass by the airport that has been previously discussed on here. FDOT noted that the railways did not believe there was a business case for the bypass, which is when I talked about how some projects should be more about the social good (from not having 22 grade crossings through urban core neighborhoods). Here were the stickies:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/959255418058735638/550A2C2F-33DB-4935-A854-9A7122726184.jpg?width=1032&height=570)
I also took the time to somewhat exhaustively point out how much money the state was spending on highway widening while claiming there was little for transit. Their response to that was that you can't throw away a decade of planning, which... whatever. I also mentioned the importance of land use policies when money is going to be invested in transportation projects, with some local examples. FDOT seemed pretty insistent that they expect the push for new services to start locally, that they then provide technical and funding assistance to.
All in all, I enjoyed the opportunity to attend the session and hope I managed to provide some perspective for North Florida that FDOT might not have received otherwise.
Darn. I didn't even know about it.
Glad you (and the others) were able to give them some good input.
QuoteFDOT seemed pretty insistent that they expect the push for new services to start locally, that they then provide technical and funding assistance to.
Good report Marcus. The quote above is consistent with my observations. Translated, I take it to mean "We are transportation engineers but we don't have input into what gets done in spite of our expertise because politicos always know better." Thus, the problems continue that they are allegedly putting out for discussion.
Since we don't have any visionaries or mass transit oriented politicians in NE Florida, most of this won't go anywhere soon, unfortunately.
The rail to Gainesville was also something I supported up in one of our prior discussions so thanks for keeping it on the radar (although I harbor no false hopes).
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 31, 2022, 09:35:46 PM
Translated, I take it to mean "We are transportation engineers but we don't have input into what gets done in spite of our expertise because politicos always know better." Thus, the problems continue that they are allegedly putting out for discussion.
I found it interesting because they hardly seem to share that viewpoint when it comes to much more expensive roadway expansion. Funny how that happens.
QuoteSince we don't have any visionaries or mass transit oriented politicians in NE Florida, most of this won't go anywhere soon, unfortunately.
It's a shame, really. I was just reading recently about some of the transportation projects happening in so many other places, that are really setting these places up to become much more connected in the coming years, but somehow our leadership is so busy doing nothing that we aren't even willing to consider what more we could be. Especially when with some creativity we could very quickly be building some of the best transportation systems in the state. Clearly the money's out there, but the question is whether our will is too. For some reason, it isn't yet.
$400million would go a long way to useful needed rail projects rather than boondoggle clown cars servicing a 10 mile area.
Realized I should post the final list of public input FDOT decided to share from all the regional listening sessions. There's supposed to be a public comment period for the full "rail service and investment program" before the end of the year but I don't think that's happened yet.
https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/rail/plans/rail/2022/routes-stations-handout.pdf
FDOT has published the draft version of their 2022 State Rail Plan.
https://www.fdot.gov/rail/plans/railplan
Not much going on in Jax.
In the Proposed Passenger Rail System Improvements (Chap 3), I notice the report doesn't mention the Skyway or U2C in the discussion of local transit systems. Also, when discussing the BJP $100 million for commuter rail, they don't mention that those funds were diverted to ... something else.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 06, 2023, 11:45:28 AM
In the Proposed Passenger Rail System Improvements (Chap 3), I notice the report doesn't mention the Skyway or U2C in the discussion of local transit systems. Also, when discussing the BJP $100 million for commuter rail, they don't mention that those funds were diverted to ... something else.
I don't always approve of FDOT priorities but on this, I have to give them some credit for staying away from an obvious boondoggle with U2C and not taking Jax seriously given it spent zero dollars out of $100 million designated for purchasing ROW for commuter rail. Why would anyone invest, accordingly, with the Keystone Cops of Jacksonville transit?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 06, 2023, 11:45:28 AM
In the Proposed Passenger Rail System Improvements (Chap 3), I notice the report doesn't mention the Skyway or U2C in the discussion of local transit systems. Also, when discussing the BJP $100 million for commuter rail, they don't mention that those funds were diverted to ... something else.
The Skyway is mentioned as an existing urban rail system but there is
zero mention of the U2C, which while not entirely surprising (because it makes sense that it would no longer be a rail system) is definitely interesting. It's not like FDOT is necessarily shying away from autonomous or connected vehicles in general, but it definitely looks like they're staying at least arms' length away from this plan.
Also funny they even mentioned BJP. Not sure what projects from that are still outstanding at this point.
I'd like to write up something bigger about the rail plan at some point but in general it feels like while there's a broader sense of interest in the state and FDOT being
part of passenger rail planning there's not really an interest in actually taking
lead in doing so. The work that has happened has largely been at the behest of local governments or intercity rail carriers, and this plan doesn't really demonstrate a serious effort to progress beyond that. The fact that Florida, among the wealthier states in the country, is calling for Washington to modify the <750 mile state funding rule in this plan (after a history of outright rejecting federal funding for rail) seems to exemplify this attitude.
You are correct, the discussions of commuter and urban rail all include language saying local or regional entities need to take the lead.
FDOT still seems to operate in modal silos. Yeah, the Rail Office developed a broad plan for improving passenger (and maybe freight, haven't read that chapter yet) rail in Florida, but the Department's funding and staffing are still very highway-oriented. When I see new-hire civil engineers in the Rail Office (or whatever they call it now) instead of the Highway side, I will believe that FDOT is truly interested in non-auto transportation.
I read through the freight plan today. This must be a typo. Where does East 12th Street get anywhere close to a NS line or US 23/New Kings Road? There is a west 12th Street near Paxson but it would be news to me to build a bridge to over NS and CSX tracks to connect to New Kings near Grand Park.
Quote4.1.2 Norfolk Southern
In early 2022, Norfolk Southern (NS) released plans for its 2022 capital program.3 Although no strategic infrastructure investments in Florida were identified, planned siding extensions in Georgia and Alabama, and terminal improvement projects in Chicago, Kansas City, and Atlanta could generate benefits for NS freight rail shipments moving to and from Florida. No specific capital projects for the NS network in Florida have been identified for this State Rail Plan. One NS railroad overpass project is included in the program of short-range investments in Chapter 5, and a railroad bridge across NS linking East 12th Street with New Kings Road (US 23) in North Florida is included in the program of long-range investments.
https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/rail/plans/rail/2022/fdot_rsp_ch-4_ada.pdf?sfvrsn=39202a79_2
They must mean WEST 12th Street.
The prospective overpass was often a topic of interest in the Northwest Citizens Planning Advisory Committee (CPAC) when I attended their meetings a few years ago. Given the size of the railyard there, it would be quite an expensive structure. On the other hand, the railyard forms a wall from Beaver Street to Edgewood Avenue (OK, McQuade crosses, but at grade, and I'd guess is often blocked being at the edge of the railyard).
They'd need to cross NS and the CSX Moncrief Yard. Would NS cover the cost of that structure?
Interesting article...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/subway-mta-bart-public-transit-new-york-boston-san-francisco-11673198418
QuoteSeveral of the nation's largest urban mass-transit systems are at a crossroads, with ridership still depressed three years into the pandemic and federal aid running out...