Great column by Mark Woods countering DeSantis's position that interstate construction did not include systemic racism as a planning factor:
QuoteA thriving neighborhood before I-95, now a reminder that a road isn't just a road
....Which brings us to the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill signed by President Biden on Monday, a comment from Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg, and the reaction from Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis.
Buttigieg was asked if part of that money will be used to address modern-day infrastructure issues that stem from the infrastructure decisions of the past. He said it made sense to try to fix some of the results of the systemic racism in highway design.
This led to DeSantis and others mocking the very premise.
Roads aren't racist, they said, tweeted and guffawed.
"I heard some stuff, some weird stuff from the Secretary of Transportation trying to make this about social issues," DeSantis said. "To me, a road's a road."
When DeSantis went on Fox News, host Tucker Carlson said: "Roads can't be racist anymore than toasters and sectional couches can be racist. They are inanimate objects. They're not alive."
They're right. The actual roads aren't racist. But to pretend that race wasn't a part of the equation that led to America's highways is to do something that seems to be happening a lot lately: Those who talk about preserving history often are really good at ignoring it.
A road's a road. It just happens that when we built a lot of them, they dissected and often decimated certain neighborhoods....
....A road's a road's a road, until all those rides slice up a neighborhood to the point where it loses most of its businesses and 80 percent of its population....
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2021/11/17/ron-desantis-florida-racism-road-highway-construction-jacksonville-sugar-hill/8625898002/?itm_medium=recirc&itm_source=taboola&itm_campaign=internal&itm_content=BelowArticleFeed-FeedRedesign
First Coast Expressway ( yea..... Outer beltway)
Disrupting Clay County White Folk, Lake Asbury pretty good..... and better yet, more significant Dynamic:
White Flight Boulevard
Some day the Brannon Chaffee First Coast Expressway will be named in honor of a Clay County Attorney and a former FL DOT Director of the same last name.And Mayor John Delaney and Corps of Engineers ( permit ) Head Joe Miller ( who would become, for a curious short period, Mayor Delaney COJ Administration Director) And Former Clay County Planner ( and always, Riversided Avondale resident) Susan Fraser.
Gosh, that would require a Giant roadway sign.......including Delaney " Political Future" Exit/ Dead End Ramp spilling in to the former Game And Fish Commission/ Trust For Public Lands Brannon Chaffee Mitigation Lands ( Will Aberger / Trust For public Lands/ Delaney/ Susan Grandin .... ha! A city office....) -a large portion of the Mitigation area now ......Oak Leaf.
Pitman sold and headed over to St. John's county...... Silver Leaf....
What's the point of the Original post????
Endless Loop.
Hmmm... a political location or a racist location? I am aware of lily white areas of the country where interstates either divided or worse.. bypassed... to the detriment of the the affected population. No doubt politically more powerful groups got what they wanted... perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...
Everything is racist. Especially 9A. My goodness. Absolute peak racism.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 18, 2021, 04:22:50 AM
perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...
Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.
But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 18, 2021, 09:19:59 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 18, 2021, 04:22:50 AM
perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...
Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.
But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.
The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955. The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits. If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.
Quote from: acme54321 on November 18, 2021, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 18, 2021, 09:19:59 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 18, 2021, 04:22:50 AM
perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...
Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.
But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.
The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955. The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits. If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.
I wasn't alive in 1955. But consider that this promotional campaign was being used as justification for putting expressways through these 'undesirable' areas. Going so far as scaring middle and upper class housewives that the maids that are coming into their homes are riddled with disease.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-slum-heart-of-jacksonville/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-slum-heart-of-jacksonville/)
Seems that the video link is brooken in th e article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxFHE3Vvi6A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxFHE3Vvi6A)
Taking a step back and examining a more nuanced view of what people were saying during that time, I take great pause at simply scoffing at the notion that racist attitudes didn't play a large part in not only the location of the expressway system, but with also how little consideration was given to the impact on these neighborhoods.
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on November 18, 2021, 05:48:11 AM
Everything is racist. Especially 9A. My goodness. Absolute peak racism.
9A and 9B were built largely by political maneuvering of the landowners along this roadway. Those landowners wanted to open up their property to development, and have reaped huge economic rewards in doing so. More power to them!
But that's a huge apples to oranges comparison to people that were forced out of their homes, and the remaining property owners whose neighborhood around them crumbled... all due to an economic taking through eminent domain without any form of comparative compensation due to the negative externalities that taking brought upon them.
P R E A C H Marcus!
Quote from: acme54321 on November 18, 2021, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 18, 2021, 09:19:59 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 18, 2021, 04:22:50 AM
perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...
Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.
But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.
The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955. The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits. If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.
6 miles away from the core means Jax isn't connected to the world? The old airport was the same distance away. Ft. Meyers has been successful with 75 being so far away from it's core. Even St. Augustine is far from 95.
Quote from: acme54321 on November 18, 2021, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 18, 2021, 09:19:59 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 18, 2021, 04:22:50 AM
perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...
Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.
But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.
The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955. The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits. If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.
Plenty of cities in Europe chose to build their highways around their cities instead of through them. Even Washington DC canceled the bulk of its proposed through-running highways, except for 395, which is largely buried. Now if you're saying that the expressway authority in 1955 wouldn't have made that decision, sure, but that doesn't make it a bad decision.
There's a difference between connecting your city and paving it over, and the latter is a decision we chose to make.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 18, 2021, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on November 18, 2021, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 18, 2021, 09:19:59 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 18, 2021, 04:22:50 AM
perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...
Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.
But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.
The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955. The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits. If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.
I wasn't alive in 1955. But consider that this promotional campaign was being used as justification for putting expressways through these 'undesirable' areas. Going so far as scaring middle and upper class housewives that the maids that are coming into their homes are riddled with disease.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-slum-heart-of-jacksonville/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-slum-heart-of-jacksonville/)
Seems that the video link is brooken in th e article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxFHE3Vvi6A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxFHE3Vvi6A)
Taking a step back and examining a more nuanced view of what people were saying during that time, I take great pause at simply scoffing at the notion that racist attitudes didn't play a large part in not only the location of the expressway system, but with also how little consideration was given to the impact on these neighborhoods.
I don't see anywhere that I said that. I'm sure racism played a major role on the final routing and because that was the path of least resistance. Those people didn't have the resources to fight it. I was just suggesting that there may have been other considerations as to why the city at the time would want the roads close to the city center in general and not out in the middle of no where as suggested.
I wasn't suggesting that racism didn't play a role... nor am I scoffing at the idea... but... I know of plenty of cities or towns or villages in northern tier states that fought tooth and nail for the interstate. They didn't want to be passed by.... Look at the closed businesses and ghost towns on 301 since I-95 or 75 bypassed them. Racist decision? Probably not... sorry but most interstate run through the center or near the center of town. The bypasses certainly go around but not the main artery.
Being a southern city racism probably played a role in who got eminent domain preference.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 18, 2021, 12:56:23 PM
I wasn't suggesting that racism didn't play a role... nor am I scoffing at the idea... but... I know of plenty of cities or towns or villages in northern tier states that fought tooth and nail for the interstate. They didn't want to be passed by.... Look at the closed businesses and ghost towns on 301 since I-95 or 75 bypassed them. Racist decision? Probably not... sorry but most interstate run through the center or near the center of town. The bypasses certainly go around but not the main artery.
Being a southern city racism probably played a role in who got eminent domain preference.
This.
I contend that class... or rather... poor folk... was more of a driving factor in route selection. Jax is a southern city so no doubt racism played a roll but in poor areas devoid of black folks in other areas of the country had the same issues...
Beware eminent domain...
Safe to say Red-lined neighborhoods were chosen throughout the US interstate system. Certainly not endemic to the American South, see I-10's role in LA.
Personally I think just some acknowledgement of Critical Race History would go long way without ever even having to mention the word theory. While I don't want to talk about "White Fright" and Karen's of today, I don't mind talking about the clearly racist motives surrounding Plecy v Ferguson or the Affordable Housing acts of the 1930's which created the Red-line system in the first place.
Black people were practically barred from participating in the 20th century American dream of owning a home and building wealth and oh by the way they found other uses for these maps as well.
In Jax, race certainly played a large role in the path of I-95, I-10, MLK Parkway, and even State & Union becoming the highways they are today. It's well documented locally that a significant contribution to the selection of their paths was for the urban renewal of Negro districts and neighborhoods, which were viewed as disease riddled and blighted. Still crazy that even the ritzy Sugar Hill got taken out in the process. It's not so crazy when you start overlaying racial demographic, redlining and zoning maps with the paths of these 1950s and 60s highways. It becomes easy to see what became new racial demarcation lines and those lines became new boundaries for additional urban renewal schemes and strategies that are still happening today. The "downtown" side of the Eastside, LaVilla and Brooklyn are all good examples. In any event, what's done is done. What we should be doing now is working to repair some of the damage caused in order to create economic and health based opportunities within these impacted areas.
/\ - With out a doubt racism and redlining played a role here in Jax's highways. I'm all for the inclusive redevelopment in LaVilla and would love to see the same for the "Other" sides of I-95 and I-10, not just what we see in Lavilla/Downtown.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 18, 2021, 12:56:23 PM
... sorry but most interstate run through the center or near the center of town. The bypasses certainly go around but not the main artery.
My family travelled the I-95 corridor long before I-95 was built using mostly 301. 301 was often the "main" street of many a small town along the south Atlantic seaboard. But, other than major cities like Jacksonville or Richmond, VA, I can't think of a single town that I-95 came close enough to that you could see housing through the thousands of acres of forests that lined I-95. About the only exception was I-95 crossing 301 at South of the Border at the South Carolina state line. It was well known at the time that the owner got this arrangement being that was a major economic driver for that part of the state at the time.
Traveling interstates today, outside of major cities, the only development of significance that I see is that which came AFTER the interstates were built and thus took into account the presence of such roads. Please reel off a list of towns that I-95 ran through or very near the middle of.
If you read the article, the racism alleged isn't just evidenced by Jacksonville but by a repeated pattern of similar scenarios in cities throughout the US. Given the wide range of differing geographies, it must be more than simple coincidence that African American neighborhoods regularly bore the brunt of such projects.
Some 20+ years ago, it was proposed to terminate JTB at San Jose Blvd. That idea was quashed by the residents in the area the minute it was aired. Contrast that result with I-95 which, by the way, didn't just get routed through NW Quadrant neighborhoods, but also through similar neighborhoods between US 1/Philips Highway and Spring Park Road. Just coincidence? I think not.
At a minimum, I-95 could have been routed around the NW Quadrant near Edgewood (appropriately named for this discussion :) ) and entered the City via I-10. Was that ever a possibility?
If I remember correctly (and thelakelander can correct me if not), the Jacksonville Expressway Authority (predecessor to the JTA) designed, purchased the right-of-way, and built the original expressway system before the Interstate system came along. I-95 connected into, and took over, the expressway that was on the ground. This includes I-95 from Clark Road (connection to old Imeson Airport) across Trout River, over the Fuller Warren Bridge, ending just north of where the Emersion interchange is now. Waivers were given for the two toll bridges.
Now, how much communication went on between the old State Road Department and the Expressway Authority over routing? Only a deep dive into old records could shed light on that.
Yes, what became I-95 predates the interstate system. It was originally known as the Jacksonville Expressway.
Sooo... I-95 simply followed in the footprint of an existing highway??? Lol... urban displacement in the name of progress has happened since the beginning of cities. No doubt the politically powerless always lose in these situations. I wonder how many farms were cut in half with no way to access your property without a 30 mile trip in a tractor? How many towns that wanted the interstate didn't get one?
This also appears to be a prime example of unintentional consequences... urban renewal was supposed to benefit people and went horribly wrong. Huge government social experiment expenditures gone awry...
Beware eminent domain and big government.
QuoteSooo... I-95 simply followed in the footprint of an existing highway???
The Jacksonville Expressway Authority (now JTA) was the local entity that that used highways as a form of urban renewal in redlined communities in Jacksonville during the 1950s and 60s. That originally highway became what is now I-95.
QuoteNo doubt the politically powerless always lose in these situations. I wonder how many farms were cut in half with no way to access your property without a 30 mile trip in a tractor? How many towns that wanted the interstate didn't get one?
All this is a red herring on actual Jax history. There's tons of documentation available about the intention of the highway's path (the Jacksonville Expressway), in regards to race locally. I can't speak for other situations about farms and tractors, which had nothing to do with Jax and highways at that time. Understanding and accepting our local history is something that shouldn't be brushed aside as we continue to work to revitalize neighborhoods in Jax. The way I look at it, when we know better, we can do better with the future investment and design of the projects we build.
QuoteThis also appears to be a prime example of unintentional consequences... urban renewal was supposed to benefit people and went horribly wrong. Huge government social experiment expenditures gone awry...
It's not an example of unintentional consequences. It (the Jacksonville Expressway specifically) was very intentional and achieved its purpose from a mobility and social separation perspective.
Not brushing anything aside nor am I intentionally introducing red herrings into the discussion. You say there is ample evidence and I have no reason to disbelieve you... I just haven't seen the "tons of documentation ". I do know what has happened in regards to interstate placement in other non minority communities and the results were similar... the politically weak were the ones who lost out or were trampled over
I said from the outset that I believed racism played a part in decision making... you claim it is THE reason for it's location.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 19, 2021, 10:30:59 AM
I said from the outset that I believed racism played a part in decision making... you claim it is THE reason for it's location.
No doubt, yes, I'm definitely saying it as a very significant reason in Jacksonville's case for the selection of the road's. This is based off seeing decades of systemic discriminatory policies built upon policies that intended to disenfranchise certain areas of town and lessen the political influence of the residents in them. It's pretty bad when digging into this stuff. Because its so bad, I'd hate to see some of this stuff not focused on and made to seem less significant than it really was.
I would also note that interstates are no ordinary roads in the sense that they are major physical obstacles, drawing a hard dividing line between their sides by effectively acting as a wall with cars travelling over the top of it. Interstates are generally fenced along their sides, lined with ditches (moats?), often with safety railings or jersey dividers and substantially elevated over surrounding lands with relatively few under or overpasses for crossing from one side to the other.
The above makes an interstate a wonderful barrier to separate one community from another or to effectively destroy a community by gutting its midsection. If that is one's intention, it is hard to beat an interstate for getting it done.
Yep... the same holds true for rural areas...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
Yep... the same holds true for rural areas...
"All Lives Matter"
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
Yep... the same holds true for rural areas...
Historically, in Jax specifically, rural areas (outside city limits in 1960) were not racially zoned to their detriment in the 1920s (allowing heavy industry in majority Black neighborhoods by right but not in white neighborhoods) and redlined in the 1930s (making investment in them virtually impossible, thus suppressing the land and property values in them compared to other neighborhoodsthat were not redlined). Having chicken blood run in your streets from the neighborhood poultry plant or dead cattle smells from the slaughterhouse next door certainly wouldn't help property values for nearby residences.
Rural areas also didn't experience public housing projects (Durkeeville, Blodgett, Brentwood projects) being inserted into them as an early form of urban renewal in the 1940s. All of these discrimatory public policies, along with screwing with people's ability to vote and built political capital, are local examples that limit the political influence of residents and suppress the value of their land. Two things you've specifically mentioned as potential "other" reasons for the paths of the Jim Crow era highways built in Jax. They are pretty much all related. I'd recommend a book like the Color of Law by Richard Rothstein as a good read for really understanding the intent behind these segregation era policies and projects. On the other hand, a highway in a rural area tended to be a big public subsidy for the land owner. The Skinner and Davis families have made millions off of having the public pay to build and maintain JTB, 9A and 9B. That's a game that still takes place nationwide with the development community.
I need to upload the map but for another project I've been working on, I overplayed the 1920s zoning map, redline maps, etc. in GIS over our 1960s expressway routes. They all align as a perfect fit. This is one where we should not let Jax's segregation era leaders off the hook. There were some definite intentional wrongs significantly influenced by racism. We can right them but we have to acknowledge that initial intent and accurately respond to it for success with future projects and policies.