Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Artea-Southbank/i-RrG9H3x/0/7412e4c0/L/20211014_DDRB%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_126-L.jpg)
A look at plans for a new 340-unit market rate apartment complex named Artea at Southbank.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/artea-at-southbank-proposed/
Man it would be really nice if someone could throw out some different architecture these days. These things are not going to age well.
This is definitely better than what's currently there, but I'm shocked that DDRB doesn't have more issues with this.
That is a very long building
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 08, 2021, 09:58:45 AM
This is definitely better than what's currently there, but I'm shocked that DDRB doesn't have more issues with this.
Are you
really shocked by the lack of comment from the DDRB? Or just disappointed?
Quote from: CityLife on October 08, 2021, 12:16:25 PM
I'm shocked at the length of that building, but not surprised.
I had the same issues with the Related Group building on the Southbank, but this is an even bigger issue in that it limits connectivity to the Kings Avenue Skyway Station from The District and other future development to the east. In the near future, the large surface parking lot to the west will (or should) get filled in with development. This site should be designed to integrate in with future development there and connect to the Kings Avenue Station. It simply requires the building to be split in half, with either a pedestrian plaza or new street in the middle. Even the latest plan for The District has a new road connecting to Broadcast Place right around where this new road should be. This may be a foreign concept in Jax, but planning for future development scenarios is what any decently run municipality does.
QuoteCreating a walkable downtown requires the creation of smaller to moderate sized blocks. Creating a successful downtown transit system requires good pedestrian linkages to the Skyway. Creating an aesthetically pleasing downtown requires some articulation and proper massing of buildings. This project fails at all three.
QuoteVery disappointing that the DIA keeps bringing forward poorly designed site plans for approval...
These are all things that the DIA, COJ, JTA, the development community, etc. should have some guidance on through the development of a transparent, community supported and coordinated downtown master plan. Since we don't have one, things like this get overlooked or not considered like they really should. Because of that, I'm not surprised.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 08, 2021, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 08, 2021, 09:58:45 AM
This is definitely better than what's currently there, but I'm shocked that DDRB doesn't have more issues with this.
Are you really shocked by the lack of comment from the DDRB? Or just disappointed?
I guess just disappointed. It looks like they ripped off the rooftop area from Vista Brooklyn, combined with the Vestcor cookie cutter design, and Related group massing. It's a Jacksonville design gumbo that DDRB has no issues with. My main complaint though is that billing this as TOD while there is a quarter mile walk to get to the skyway station is a major stretch.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 08, 2021, 12:41:33 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 08, 2021, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 08, 2021, 09:58:45 AM
This is definitely better than what's currently there, but I'm shocked that DDRB doesn't have more issues with this.
Are you really shocked by the lack of comment from the DDRB? Or just disappointed?
I guess just disappointed. It looks like they ripped off the rooftop area from Vista Brooklyn, combined with the Vestcor cookie cutter design, and Related group massing. It's a Jacksonville design gumbo that DDRB has no issues with. My main complaint though is that billing this as TOD while there is a quarter mile walk to get to the skyway station is a major stretch.
Yeah, there's nothing that's "TOD" about this in the sense of what TOD actually means and is. The only real transit connection here is that JTA owns the property. That's about it.
That DIA can look at these renderings and find "variety" is baffling. Any layperson can see this is a size 15 shoebox.
LOL, people worry about the LERP but accept that Jacksonville is going to be the "boxy building" capital of the world at this rate. At least the LERP will be memorable and definitely one of a kind. We need it to create interest in our skyline, if nothing else. Every building here just about is a painted or glass box. I actually think the new FIS building is less inspiring than what I expected from the renderings, at least viewing it from the river side. Our most interesting buildings were built prior to 1990 or so it seems. Ever since, mostly blah.
Quote from: acme54321 on October 08, 2021, 09:49:04 AM
Man it would be really nice if someone could throw out some different architecture these days. These things are not going to age well.
I agree; and...it just seems like the "same ole, same ole," cookie cutter, conveyor belt but with different developers, contractors, etc. (and names). Find something different, do something different, and, it seems to me that this is the trend in almost all small, medium, and large cities; I see them in almost every good sized city I visit. I can't complain too much though. We would have screamed for something like this 40 years ago to add density to the urban core/downtown.
"Jacksonville-based Corner Lot Development Group plans to develop a 340-unit, four-story market rate apartment building along Broadcast Place, just north of Interstate 95. Called Artea at Southbank, the project would include a four-level, 425 space parking garage on a 3.87 acre site that is owned by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority"
Is it just me, or is that a lot to pack onto 4 acres parcel?
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 08, 2021, 09:58:45 AM
This is definitely better than what's currently there, but I'm shocked that DDRB doesn't have more issues with this.
Its important to note that it is DIA staff recommending approval in their report. The DDRB itself will be discussing conceptual approval today, and will likely raise some issues. The applicant must also go through DDRB's final approval process.
Quote from: MusicMan on October 14, 2021, 09:05:14 AM
"Jacksonville-based Corner Lot Development Group plans to develop a 340-unit, four-story market rate apartment building along Broadcast Place, just north of Interstate 95. Called Artea at Southbank, the project would include a four-level, 425 space parking garage on a 3.87 acre site that is owned by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority"
Is it just me, or is that a lot to pack onto 4 acres parcel?
It is that's why there is a parking garage. Take a look at the new apartments at Gate Parkway and Deerwood Park Blvd. The apartments wrap a garage.
Unanimous approval at the conceptual stage, but with criticism:
Quote"I think us as a board, we have a responsibility to do. And that is not pack Downtown — in the immediate areas of Downtown — with cookie-cutter apartment complexes. And with all due respect, that's exactly what this is. We passed a couple others very recently as well, and I think we're flirting with danger on that," Allen said.
The project must return to the DDRB for final design approval before the project can break ground.
Corner Lot CEO Andy Allen said Oct. 7 that the company likely will seek a Recapture Enhanced Value Grant tax refund from the city through the Downtown Investment Authority for what will be a market-rate apartment project.
If the city is going to give a REV grant, we should definitely be pushing for a better design. Here's hoping the DDRB sticks with that and demands some improvements on the final approval step.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/corner-lot-southbank-apartments-advance-despite-cookie-cutter-design (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/corner-lot-southbank-apartments-advance-despite-cookie-cutter-design)
Apparently JTA prohibited any retail and restaurant use from this development?
Any idea why?
Who knows?! JTA does a lot of things in regards to transit that most of us will never understand. With that said, is retail required in developments in this area of the Southbank? I don't believe Broadstone has any either and if anything materializes at the District, it will be directly across the street.
Prohibiting retail and dining there is a good move, imo. The market doesn't need to be oversaturated with those types of uses in scattered areas. Let them cluster together on the riverfront, in the District, Hendricks, and San Marco Square.
That's about the only positive thing I can say about JTA and DIA's involvement in the project.
Curious, with the apartment market as hot as it is right now, do you guys think we still need to be handing out millions in 15-20 year REV grants for new construction like this?
$6.3 million grant approved unanimously for this one.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/downtown-investment-authority-approves-dollar6-3-million-tax-incentive-for-artea-apartments
Can one of you ex-perts explain how this $6.3 milion grant actually impacts the developers bottom line/pocket book? I assume this is like a closing cost credit that pays out over several years. In other words, it's pure profit for the developer.....
Big excavator sitting on the side of the road next to this parcel. Looks like they had run it up into the cleared part of the site adjacent to the DCSB parking lot. They had a drill rig out there a few months ago in the same area. I wonder if there are some environmental concerns on this site as it was used for heavy industry for a long time.
Looks like this is happening, land clearing has begun.
Quote from: acme54321 on August 16, 2022, 09:50:55 PM
Big excavator sitting on the side of the road next to this parcel. Looks like they had run it up into the cleared part of the site adjacent to the DCSB parking lot. They had a drill rig out there a few months ago in the same area. I wonder if there are some environmental concerns on this site as it was used for heavy industry for a long time.
This site was a FEC rail yard supporting the riverfront shipyards, JEA power plant, etc. as I recall. There were quite a few sidings fanning out over the property and running under I-95 (which is why so much of it is elevated today, I imagine). Like most railroad properties, you can likely count on some level of contamination.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 08, 2023, 06:29:46 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on August 16, 2022, 09:50:55 PM
Big excavator sitting on the side of the road next to this parcel. Looks like they had run it up into the cleared part of the site adjacent to the DCSB parking lot. They had a drill rig out there a few months ago in the same area. I wonder if there are some environmental concerns on this site as it was used for heavy industry for a long time.
This site was a FEC rail yard supporting the riverfront shipyards, JEA power plant, etc. as I recall. There were quite a few sidings fanning out over the property and running under I-95 (which is why so much of it is elevated today, I imagine). Like most railroad properties, you can likely count on some level of contamination.
Before construction of the St Johns River Bridge I believe the predecessor of the FEC had their main terminal and coaling dock where dcsb is today.
You should have smelled the dirt that they hauled off from the Broadstone site. It has a nasty chemical/pesticide smell from 100' away.
^ Lumber treated with now-banned creosote was used where pressure treated lumber is used today. So, figure it would have been used on wharfs, pilings, decking, railroad ties, telephone poles and crossties, etc. extensively in this area when it was more industrial. There is a good chance that is what you smelled as creosote has a distinctive odor. It will also burn your skin if you handle it without protection. There is at least one site in Jax that treated lumber with this stuff and it is now a Superfund site. Nasty stuff, indeed.
Nah, wasn't creosote, I'm familiar with that. It smelled like the fertilized and pesticide section of a landscape store just much stronger.
https://youtu.be/oN-nuRd-lyg
It's crazy, to me, that Jax is still building these 3-4 floor suburban-footprint apartment complexes in the core.
Orlando has been on a seemingly unstoppable roll of constructing high-density buildings downtown since 2015. I feel like a broken record stating this, but Jax's Urban Development teams need to drive 2 hours south to see how to fill in surface lots with high-density buildings.
Some examples just from this year that are currently under construction / slated to start later this year:
1. Phase 1 of a 350', 462-unit residential building will be completed this fall. Phase 2 is starting soon and will boost the number to 707 units.
2. 444' Senior Living tower set to start construction in May.
3. 395' mixed-use building with 555 residential units set to start this fall.
4. 220' mixed-use building with 368 units expected to start construction q4 this year.
5. 230' residential tower with 182 units
4. 368-unit, 11-story apartment building just opened across from Lynx Station in December 2022
Seems to be something about the housing market or land values here. There have been, what, a handful of high rise residential projects even proposed downtown since the recession? And all of them have demanded extensive subsidies? Seems to be easy/cheap enough still to just assemble the land to spread apartments out instead of buying one parcel and building up.
It's because of what you can charge for rent.
Orlando Downtown: 1/1/746SqFt - $2528/month
Jacksonville Downtown (Southerly - build as 3 floors concrete with 5 floors of sticks): 1.1/704SqFt - $1891/month
Rents, code & contracting base. Jax has cheaper rents, with more restrictive DT code for building hi-rise apartments, with a smaller contractor base. If they allowed nearby parcels to do parking agreements with the Kings Ave Lot for example, there could be some higher buildings put in there when IR go back down. Not sure that would ever happen other than the current 0.75 acre lot listed now with the PUD for it. But just likely too expensive right now.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 23, 2023, 10:45:58 AM
Seems to be something about the housing market or land values here. There have been, what, a handful of high rise residential projects even proposed downtown since the recession? And all of them have demanded extensive subsidies? Seems to be easy/cheap enough still to just assemble the land to spread apartments out instead of buying one parcel and building up.
Or to convert obsolete office space that's already built. I'd also look at what the city is doing or not doing to help make the numbers work on these projects.
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2023, 11:11:24 AM
It's because of what you can charge for rent.
Orlando Downtown: 1/1/746SqFt - $2528/month
Jacksonville Downtown (Southerly - build as 3 floors concrete with 5 floors of sticks): 1.1/704SqFt - $1891/month
Pretty much. In terms of market, Orlando and Florida's larger metro areas aren't really peer cities. Maybe 30-40 years ago buy not now. Scale down to Memphis, Louisville, etc. and they're likely more in line with out numbers.
This thing is really coming along , but damn, who picked the color scheme???