Well, haven't seen it posted yet so here it is if it's legit; probably should have went to census.gov but I'll bet that's where they extracted this. Out of the top 20, Jax has the poorest showing, especially of consolidated cities, of peope per square mile (185). That is extremely paltry shwoing how un-dense Jax and/or Duval County really is; enjoy.
Click on the bleow link please.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities
As some in this forum have said and iterated, "population/people" make a city, not buildings, structures, landmarks or monuments. Well...if this is true, and I would agree that it is, and Jax has the population to "make a city, a great city" mind you, then WTH is wrong with the other part of this picture? The buildings, parks, entertainment places, bars, restaurants, skyscrapers (which seem to be going out of fashion), and I could go on and on. Well, we all know w hat the problem is, and I will leave it at that. As I've said, if Jax is going to be a city of 930,000 people, we reeally need to behave as one and in that vain; otherwise, drop the damn consolidation mask; 185 people per square mile says it all; Jax is not who she portrays or display herself to be to the U.S.A. or the world. Cruised around saturday, and today, Riverside/avondale...popping; Brooklyn...popping; San Marco...popping; Murray Hill...not popping but people walking around, shopping and eating; 5 Points...popping; Ortega...popping. Downtown, Northside, Springfield (is on the way up), Eastside, Tallyrand, Shipyards/Stadium District...sad, dreary, hardly any people, not popping in the least. I know, I'm beating a dead horse and I need to just shut up and let it go; I won't let it go. Lastly, I know you guys that run this forum may not be political; but you need to be. All of you are smart, intelligent, and know what this City (Jax) needs in order to be prosperous and successful. You should have a meeting and one of you should be tapped/picked out to run for Mayor, and the other smarties in the forum, if he or she wins, should be integral parts of that administration. IMO you all can do it. I think if you get pissed off bad enough you will. Alright...enough. It just angers me to see my city, moreso the urban core/downtown, beat down and stagnant like it is. On the whole Jax is better than it was IMO in the 70' and 80's. Thanks guys for reading.
Quote from: heights unknown on May 04, 2021, 12:10:33 AM
Lastly, I know you guys that run this forum may not be political; but you need to be. All of you are smart, intelligent, and know what this City (Jax) needs in order to be prosperous and successful. You should have a meeting and one of you should be tapped/picked out to run for Mayor, and the other smarties in the forum, if he or she wins, should be integral parts of that administration. IMO you all can do it. I think if you get pissed off bad enough you will. Alright...enough. It just angers me to see my city, moreso the urban core/downtown, beat down and stagnant like it is. On the whole Jax is better than it was IMO in the 70' and 80's. Thanks guys for reading.
The challenge for some is that for every door you open to that end, other doors close. Becoming explicitly political on this site, beyond advocating for urban planning and transportation, means that whichever side you didn't choose will likely close their hearts & minds to you. This isn't to say that people on this site can't or won't ever be involved, just that there are risks, and any such organization would really have to be separate from what The Jaxson is as a website.
The other big thing is, as always, money. Thanks to Curry and Peyton before him, running a mayoral campaign is expensive. As I've said before, any candidate has to determine how to either get more of money from less people, or less money from more people. That's after you navigate the partisan structures that already exist, because like it or not, as long as we have partisan elections with national party labels, that is going to significantly impact who is willing to consider voting for or donating to you.
Also, just my opinion, but you need more than just a Mayor to make what you're talking about truly work. A Mayor can do a lot, but much less than they could with a Council that shares their interests. Which is more money, more effort, more time. It's certainly not impossible, with the right message, but it's an uphill battle nonetheless. What's important is keeping your eyes peeled, eventually someone good will be bold enough to throw their hat into the ring. And whenever they do that, they're going to need a lot of help.
Every one of the top 25 largest cities grew in population. In the '70's and '80's the majority would have been losing population.
Quote from: heights unknown on May 03, 2021, 11:35:10 PM
Well, haven't seen it posted yet so here it is if it's legit; probably should have went to census.gov but I'll bet that's where they extracted this. Out of the top 20, Jax has the poorest showing, especially of consolidated cities, of peope per square mile (185). That is extremely paltry shwoing how un-dense Jax and/or Duval County really is; enjoy.
Click on the bleow link please.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities
But this is what makes Jacksonville unique from other cities with large populations. Sure, there's appeal to density and clustering so I won't argue against any of that. On the opposite side of the coin, there's something really nice about not being piled on top of each other as well. Jacksonville is a giant (and still growing) suburb. While most on here advocate for more clustering around the downtown area - an idea which I think is fine - I still think we are ignoring and not discussing the greatest resources this city has. Those resources are our river and ocean front. Water-front recreation and entertainment in this city is on par with that of a landlocked Las Vegas. Any given weekend there will be a thousand boats in our rivers which have nowhere to dock and walk. Even though you may find 50K people spread out on our beaches each weekend, the entire beach front from Ponte Vedra to Mayport is 98% residential. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
While it will take a very long time before Jacksonville becomes a traditional "densely populated" city, it would be more realistic in the short term for this sleepy city to at least leverage its natural resources in a smarter manner to provide an even greater quality of life for those of us who call Jville home.
I don't think Jax is any different than most places across the country. The numbers are a semantics game, IMO. If we looked at these from an urban area perspective, we would see that our development pattern is no different from the average US urban area of similar scale and size.
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on May 04, 2021, 08:27:30 AM
While it will take a very long time before Jacksonville becomes a traditional "densely populated" city, it would be more realistic in the short term for this sleepy city to at least leverage its natural resources in a smarter manner to provide an even greater quality of life for those of us who call Jville home.
Jax already has a traditional "densely populated" city. However, it's only a 30 square mile area and it has lost about 50% of it's population and density since 1950. It maxed out at a little over 200k residents and a little under 7,000 residents per square mile around 1950. Then we went batshit crazy with urban renewal projects that took out entire swaths of our densest neighborhoods. From my perspective, this area offers opportunity to recapture its density because the infrastructure network is built for several times more people than it supports today. So we should be able to offer the best of all sorts of environments, urban, suburban and rural, giving our residents a viable choice of quality of life options moving forward.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 04, 2021, 07:41:55 AM
Every one of the top 25 largest cities grew in population. In the '70's and '80's the majority would have been losing population.
If you're looking at 2021 vs. 2020, Chicago lost. But your point still remains as they were the only one to drop population-wise.
It does surprise me a bit, because with the influx of people to Florida and Texas where are these people coming from and why - on the surface - does it not seem to jive with the congressional redistricting losses?
The source appears to be an estimate and not the results of the 2020 census. It will be interesting to see how close or far off some of these population estimates will be when the official numbers are released.
How many cities on that list DO NOT have a Starbucks in their CBD?
Or a good grocery store?
If population density is the end goal, just start filling in the wetlands.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 04, 2021, 10:34:07 AM
How many cities on that list DO NOT have a Starbucks in their CBD?
Or a good grocery store?
Traditionally, the CBD was only the Northbank. For Jax, does the Starbucks in Baptist or Fresh Market in Brooklyn count as being in the CBD?
Quote from: heights unknown on May 03, 2021, 11:35:10 PM
Well, haven't seen it posted yet so here it is if it's legit; probably should have went to census.gov but I'll bet that's where they extracted this. Out of the top 20, Jax has the poorest showing, especially of consolidated cities, of peope per square mile (185). That is extremely paltry shwoing how un-dense Jax and/or Duval County really is; enjoy.
Click on the bleow link please.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities
Not sure where they're getting their numbers from but none of them match up with the census figures although they claim them as a source. The area and density numbers are all off as well.
The point still stands that Jax has a low population density however the latest results from 2019 show that out of the Top 25 cities, Jacksonville is #24 with 1,220/mi
2 right between Oklahoma City (1,080/mi
2) and Nashville (1,410/mi
2)
It should be noted that a lot of these cities had high growth rates in the early 2010's following the recession and have slowed down significantly in the past few years. Jacksonville's growth has picked up since the mid-2010's including in the central city, not just the suburbs
Jacksonville is potentially even less dense than this list shows. According to Wikipedia, we have about 758 square miles of land and 117 sq. mi. of water for a total of 874 sq. mi. The article posted shows us at 747 sq. mi. so it appears to only be accounting for the land in the City, not our water. I wonder if they used this approach with any other City. I wonder if they made any adjustments for Baldwin and the Beaches, although, technically, I think those residents may be dual city citizens since Jacksonville is also the county government.
QuoteAccording to the United States Census Bureau, the city has a total area of 874.3 square miles (2,264 km2), making Jacksonville the largest city in land area in the contiguous United States; of this, 86.66% (757.7 sq mi or 1,962 km2) is land and 13.34% (116.7 sq mi or 302 km2) is water.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on May 04, 2021, 02:16:46 PM
Jacksonville is potentially even less dense than this list shows. According to Wikipedia, we have about 758 square miles of land and 117 sq. mi. of water for a total of 874 sq. mi. The article posted shows us at 747 sq. mi. so it appears to only be accounting for the land in the City, not our water. I wonder if they used this approach with any other City. I wonder if they made any adjustments for Baldwin and the Beaches, although, technically, I think those residents may be dual city citizens since Jacksonville is also the county government.
Yes, using land area is the common method. Miami would not have +12k residents per square mile if they also included Biscayne Bay as a part of the city's land area. Also, population density numbers for the City of Jacksonville would not include Baldwin and the three beach municipalities.
^ I wonder how they count "water." Wetlands, swamps, dry beds that host seasonal or storm water only, retention and natural ponds, lakes, ditches, small creeks or streams, narrow vs. wide rivers, intracoastal "rivers"... where is the line drawn? Do they just scan a satellite photo and if it reflects the sun, it's deemed water ;D?
Quote from: thelakelander on May 04, 2021, 11:49:08 AM
Quote from: MusicMan on May 04, 2021, 10:34:07 AM
How many cities on that list DO NOT have a Starbucks in their CBD?
Or a good grocery store?
Traditionally, the CBD was only the Northbank. For Jax, does the Starbucks in Baptist or Fresh Market in Brooklyn count as being in the CBD?
I'd say that is "downtown" but not the "Central Business District." Orlando makes that distinction a bit more clear.
I found the Starbucks in Baptist but you really have a serious walk from the parking garage. And you will need to ask directions because there is no signage.I have not seen the other one....
I don't think anyone living at The Berkman, Carling, 11E, or Churchwell would walk to Fresh Market and back again carrying a 3 day supply of groceries. But it would be great if they could hop on the people mover and get to Brooklyn and back. IMO Fresh Market is not in the CBD.
It's sort of the canary in the coal mine, We have the only CBD without a Starbucks, which sorta concerns me.
No one that can afford $2K / mo for a 888 sq ftt walks to the grocery store.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on May 04, 2021, 02:16:46 PM
Jacksonville is potentially even less dense than this list shows. According to Wikipedia, we have about 758 square miles of land and 117 sq. mi. of water for a total of 874 sq. mi. The article posted shows us at 747 sq. mi. so it appears to only be accounting for the land in the City, not our water. I wonder if they used this approach with any other City. I wonder if they made any adjustments for Baldwin and the Beaches, although, technically, I think those residents may be dual city citizens since Jacksonville is also the county government.
QuoteAccording to the United States Census Bureau, the city has a total area of 874.3 square miles (2,264 km2), making Jacksonville the largest city in land area in the contiguous United States; of this, 86.66% (757.7 sq mi or 1,962 km2) is land and 13.34% (116.7 sq mi or 302 km2) is water.
They're measuring the population within the cities borders.
They're measuring it per sq miles of land.
They're using the same process for all cities. Well, tehy're just showing US Census Bureau data. but the USCB is measuring it the same for all.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 04, 2021, 10:20:52 PM
I found the Starbucks in Baptist but you really have a serious walk from the parking garage. And you will need to ask directions because there is no signage.I have not seen the other one....
I don't think anyone living at The Berkman, Carling, 11E, or Churchwell would walk to Fresh Market and back again carrying a 3 day supply of groceries. But it would be great if they could hop on the people mover and get to Brooklyn and back. IMO Fresh Market is not in the CBD.
It's sort of the canary in the coal mine, We have the only CBD without a Starbucks, which sorta concerns me.
I could be forgetting some but I counted at least 5 local coffee shops on the Northbank, 6 if you include the cafe in the Hyatt that sells Starbucks products. I don't know if Vagabond is still opening in the Barnett but there's also going to be a coffee shop at Bread & Board Provisions so that makes 8. Maybe from an optics standpoint it looks bad to not have a Starbucks but there's plenty of local coffee shops DT that make up the difference and are better quality in my humble opinion.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 04, 2021, 10:20:52 PM
I found the Starbucks in Baptist but you really have a serious walk from the parking garage. And you will need to ask directions because there is no signage.I have not seen the other one....
I don't think anyone living at The Berkman, Carling, 11E, or Churchwell would walk to Fresh Market and back again carrying a 3 day supply of groceries. But it would be great if they could hop on the people mover and get to Brooklyn and back. IMO Fresh Market is not in the CBD.
It's sort of the canary in the coal mine, We have the only CBD without a Starbucks, which sorta concerns me.
IMO, at this point and time, a Starbucks on the Northbank is not feasible; where? either Brooklyn or on the Southbank possibly near the fountain, or, in the Peninsula area/district close to "The District/Healthy Town" that they are finally beginning to build (hopefully). I've been downtown (Jax) many times since moving back to North Florida, and it never occurred to me that there is no Starbucks in the CBD.
Starbucks was feasible at the Landing. It was not at 11 East. Right now, there aren't many spaces that make sense for them in the Northbank. Let's see how things look when a few projects like the Trio and VyStar garage come online. In the meantime, support the local coffee shops (better IMO), or the Starbucks at Baptist Medical, Five Points or San Marco.
"No one that can afford $2K / mo for a 888 sq ftt walks to the grocery store."
They do. Just not in Jacksonville. NYC. San Fran. Chicago. Charlotte. Asheville. Greenville. Dozens of major league cities, this is normal. Just not here. They can't. There is no store.
Brooklyn IS NOT downtown OR the CBD. Springfield is NOT downtown or the CBD. Most of San Marco is NOT downtown and obviously not the CBD.
How about Harvey's? Lot's of people living in the Cathedral District do walk there. Anyway, a few projects like the Laura Street Trio and the Old Independent Life tower, include a grocery. It will take 2 or 3 years for those projects to be completed though.
I'll paraphrase: "No one that can afford $2000 /mo for an apartment walks to Harveys." I'm being honest. I was in there the other day looking for a lock. It's not a terrific store.
The few folks i know who live in the CBD go to Publix/Riverside, Fresh Market, and Trader Joes/Whole Foods or Costco. And GrassRoots.
I believe what you are saying about Cathedral district residents. It's close for sure.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 05, 2021, 07:20:51 PM
"No one that can afford $2K / mo for a 888 sq ftt walks to the grocery store."
They do. Just not in Jacksonville. NYC. San Fran. Chicago. Charlotte. Asheville. Greenville. Dozens of major league cities, this is normal. Just not here. They can't. There is no store.
Brooklyn IS NOT downtown OR the CBD. Springfield is NOT downtown or the CBD. Most of San Marco is NOT downtown and obviously not the CBD.
What major grocery store is downtown in Asheville? Some small markets yes, but I'm not aware of a traditional grocery store walkable to downtown Asheville. The other cities I don't know as well so no comment on those.
Whole Foods about a mile from city center? I mean it's not fair to compare downtown Asheville to downtown Jacksonville, but if you want too we can. I think someone mentioned all the coffee shops downtown in Jax, but how many stay open late and serve killer food and wine?
Where can you buy a bottle of wine downtown?
Seriously though, how many people are paying $2k a month for an apartment in downtown Jax? I can't imagine that population is large enough to support a 7-11, much less a Harvey's. For anyone hoping to see a Publix, Whole Foods, etc. in the Northbank, DT Jax just isn't there yet and won't be anytime soon.
I'm not arguing with you. We can all see the current state of downtown Jax with our own two eyes. I do believe it would be great if a Downtown Dweller could hop on a people mover and go to Brooklyn. We've come full circle from where we were in 2006, lots of promise on the horizon. Now lets see who brings the money and what they do with it.
Hopefully, JTA will get that Brooklyn Station open soon. That's one that should have been put in place a decade ago. It will be a great value add to Northbank and Southbank living to have direct transit access to the Brooklyn area. It would also be good to capitalize on Broad Street's potential of extending that commercial corridor into the Northbank and LaVilla.
I've always thought the people mover in Portland was great idea. As I recall, its free throughout a large business zone downtown, just hop on and hop off. It keeps the whole area humming along, and it connects to the burbs and other points of interest with a nominal fee.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 06, 2021, 10:38:04 AM
I've always thought the people mover in Portland was great idea. As I recall, its free throughout a large business zone downtown, just hop on and hop off. It keeps the whole area humming along, and it connects to the burbs and other points of interest with a nominal fee.
I have used it as well. It seems to function well.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 06, 2021, 08:47:07 AM
Whole Foods about a mile from city center? I mean it's not fair to compare downtown Asheville to downtown Jacksonville, but if you want too we can. I think someone mentioned all the coffee shops downtown in Jax, but how many stay open late and serve killer food and wine?
Where can you buy a bottle of wine downtown?
No one is comparing downtown Asheville to Jacksonville. You said there was a walkable grocery store in downtown Asheville, and there isn't, that's all.
Interesting that there is talk about a market in Downtown area. There was a market that was going to be part of the armory redevelopment. It was not chosen, Has there been any progress on the site from the riva group?
The Armory developer is working to get the property on the National Register, which will make it eligible for historic tax credits. I had an opportunity to meet them and tour the property earlier this year. The "market" in the Armory will be a small food hall.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 07, 2021, 08:28:11 AM
The Armory developer is working to get the property on the National Register, which will make it eligible for historic tax credits. I had an opportunity to meet them and tour the property earlier this year. The "market" in the Armory will be a small food hall.
Saw pictures of the Armory both inside and outside, and on the inside it's decaying and rotting down fast. Awesome old historic building and piece of Jax history. I lived and was stationed in Thurso Scotland in the early 80's, and this building definitely has a Scottish taste and flair; it should not be allowed to be overlooked or go to waste. I remember seeing buildings like this in Scotland that the Armory resembled. Only thing that bothers me though is if it is to become a food hall, what else will go with that or be around there to draw people in other than the food hall theme alone? Awesome old piece of history.
https://abandonedsoutheast.com/2018/04/12/the-armory/
^ My first "dance" was a 6th grade dance held at the Armory. To a kid, that building looked mighty big. Lot of room for the boys and girls to "stand apart" at that awkward age ;D.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 05, 2021, 07:20:51 PM
"No one that can afford $2K / mo for a 888 sq ftt walks to the grocery store."
They do. Just not in Jacksonville. NYC. San Fran. Chicago. Charlotte. Asheville. Greenville. Dozens of major league cities, this is normal. Just not here. They can't. There is no store.
Brooklyn IS NOT downtown OR the CBD. Springfield is NOT downtown or the CBD. Most of San Marco is NOT downtown and obviously not the CBD.
From my experience, this is something often claimed. Yet there's nearly no evidence that more than the occasional walk is done.
IMHO, it's people bullshitting other people. These are the people who live in Minneapolis and brag about biking to work. Yet come January you can count the number of bicyclists you see on one hand.
Anyone who's tried walking 1/2 a mile while carrying groceries quickly asks themselves "is there an easier way".
There is ---> automobile, either drive yourself, taxi or grocery delivery.