Interesting...when this went south a couple years ago I was wondering if there was a way these would end up in COJ's hands.
This would be the Courthouse and two Sports Complex/Arena Garages.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-consider-buying-mps-managed-parking-garages
I'm actually okay with this, but additionally, I'm wondering if there's a way we could get the Sports Complex garages to incorporate Ground level retail. The traffic flow in both would allow for it.
This parking garage arrangement was met with heavy criticism and skepticism when it was originally proposed but the City put it through anyway, as is typical, in a show of "getting something done for Downtown" no matter what. And, now, it not only has proven to be the terrible deal financially as predicted by many, but it is a drag on doing other projects for Downtown.
Once again, this is a result of no holistic vision and detailed plan for Downtown and a byproduct of the "get something done - no matter what" attitude that if/when it blows up, the decision makers will have moved on and it will be someone else's problem. Wait until all the Curry time bombs start exploding over the next 20+ years to see more of the same.
^The Skyway is cheap compared to what those garages have cost downtown! ;)
I'm not a fan of the parking ramps.
But outside of keeping some homeless foilks warm, no one uses the Skyway.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 15, 2021, 01:35:40 PM
^The Skyway is cheap compared to what those garages have cost downtown! ;)
Not sure I agree, but if so, it won't be for long if the gas tax plan goes through. LOL. More of the same type of decision making. Let's just do something to say we did it. No plan, no vision, no collaboration, no connecting dots, no community input, no common sense, no financial due diligence (what business is GUARANTEED a profit no matter what?!) This is why Downtown is going nowhere.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on March 15, 2021, 01:57:39 PM
I'm not a fan of the parking ramps.
But outside of keeping some homeless foilks warm, no one uses the Skyway.
1.2 million people a year disagree with you.
Downtown public garages are how Metromover in Miami and Lymmo in Orlando are funded, so hopefully, this helps move towards that arrangement.
I use the Skyway when I work at my downtown office. It allows me to not have to pay for a parking garage slot in downtown, while getting a little exercise walking. I'm not the only person that has a roof over their head using it.
Quote"It's been a long-standing deal that may not have ultimately been in the best interest of taxpayers," Hughes said.
Yeah, anybody with 40 IQ points could see that 17 years ago.
I gotta say, articles like these make me think a lot about the people who despise taxes, and especially tax increases. They're always saying that governments should stop increasing them and make do with whatever they already take. And while I'm a strong believer that we're going to have to invest in building a better city (plus I understand that inflation exists), I can't help but wonder somewhat where we just pulled $33 million from. Just like with the Landing, where we suddenly had over $20 million to buy and raze the place before anyone could ask why. Or the Ford on Bay.
If we can afford to just drop tens of millions of dollars on demolishing buildings or paying for our past mistakes, how come we're always broke or can't afford it when something with a ton of potential comes up?
QuoteI can't help but wonder somewhat where we just pulled $33 million from.
^ It's called borrowing against the future to buy votes today.
Think of it as the government version of a Ponzi scheme. Just like the uses of the gas tax for the Skyway or the sales tax for the pension or Better Jacksonville Plan (or hotel taxes for Lot J if they had pulled it off), they issue bonds to be paid in the future against streaming revenues from taxes. Unfortunately, the current incompetents are no longer around when the bills come due to be accountable for the poorly spent money [mostly wasted/overspent/used on projects that are fully depreciated before the bonds are paid off] and taxpayers are left holding the bag.
Now ask what do they do when there is nothing left bond and real needs are still unmet or new needs arise. This is why we need to rethink this madness.
Its why I like specific taxes going to specific purposes to increase transparency. An example would be a "parks district tax" but you can imagine many others. Fortunately, we at least have a "school tax" so they can't muddy that too much.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 15, 2021, 10:14:00 PM
QuoteI can't help but wonder somewhat where we just pulled $33 million from.
^ It's called borrowing against the future to buy votes today.
Think of it as the government version of a Ponzi scheme. Just like the uses of the gas tax for the Skyway or the sales tax for the pension or Better Jacksonville Plan (or hotel taxes for Lot J if they had pulled it off), they issue bonds to be paid in the future against streaming revenues from taxes. Unfortunately, the current incompetents are no longer around when the bills come due to be accountable for the poorly spent money [mostly wasted/overspent/used on projects that are fully depreciated before the bonds are paid off] and taxpayers are left holding the bag.
Now ask what do they do when there is nothing left bond and real needs are still unmet or new needs arise. This is why we need to rethink this madness.
Its why I like specific taxes going to specific purposes to increase transparency. An example would be a "parks district tax" but you can imagine many others. Fortunately, we at least have a "school tax" so they can't muddy that too much.
This is pretty oversimplified. Whether or not they get votes, it's borrowing against future taxes to have more impactful and expensive projects. The alternative is saving the surplus every year, but if a government is making money the constituents think they should be taxed less. Then, those larger projects never occur.
Special taxing districts and taxes for specific services have their own problems, like restricting the ability of the local government to react to sudden changes in the cost of different services. Also, the districts have a weird habit of not benefiting the low-income communities they are meant to help. See the I-Drive CRA in Orlando. That's not to say they don't always work, but they aren't a clear and perfect solution to the problems.
^ I am not against bonding when done right. My point is you can only bond so much and then you run out of sources to bond. If you "waste" your bonded funding on projects that are not appropriate, mismanaged or otherwise not productive, you are taking away from the opportunity to do the "good" projects in the future. This is what I see happening here to some degree.
Bottom line, taxpayers of future generations are stuck paying for past sins and unable to take care of their needs.
Yes, districts may constrain spending decisions but there are ways to deal with that. One is to have a safety valve built in for extraordinary situations, such as a 3/4th vote of the district board to reallocate a limited portion of district funds to a general fund. Another way would be to have the district fund a percentage of the total need leaving the additional amount to come from a match via the general fund. If times are tight, the additional match is curtailed or eliminated but at least there is a ground floor of funding for the district. By example, there is never going to be a day when 100% of park funding is wiped out. So, if the district pays, say 85% of funding, the City has 15% they can pull back on if it is absolutely necessary, maybe requiring a super majority of the City Council.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 15, 2021, 02:13:39 PM
I use the Skyway when I work at my downtown office. It allows me to not have to pay for a parking garage slot in downtown, while getting a little exercise walking. I'm not the only person that has a roof over their head using it.
Ditto.
I use the Skyway at least once a week.
Can be from Hemming Plaza to Sake House on the Southbank in five minutes flat at lunch time.
Will likely use it multiple times a week when the Brooklyn station opens connecting it to Vale, Bento, First Watch, Burrito Gallery, Burger Fi, Fresh Market, etc.
^ LOL. That's two riders accounted for! Only tens of thousands more to go.
You are invaluable citizens but I don't think anyone is worth $372 million (on top of tens of millions already invested + millions more in annual operating losses) to get a ride to work :).
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 18, 2021, 10:31:07 PM
^ LOL. That's two riders accounted for! Only tens of thousands more to go.
You are invaluable citizens but I don't think anyone is worth $372 million (on top of tens of millions already invested + millions more in annual operating losses) to get a ride to work :).
Well, we don't need to count them one by one. 1.2 million people ride the Skyway a year.
Quote from: WAJAS on March 18, 2021, 11:53:32 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 18, 2021, 10:31:07 PM
^ LOL. That's two riders accounted for! Only tens of thousands more to go.
You are invaluable citizens but I don't think anyone is worth $372 million (on top of tens of millions already invested + millions more in annual operating losses) to get a ride to work :).
Well, we don't need to count them one by one. 1.2 million people ride the Skyway a year.
You might get 1.2 million passenger trips in a year, but that does NOT mean that 1.2 million INDIVIDUALS ride in a year.
Presuming that a typical rider would ride the Skyway every working day to get around town, you can get a low-ball estimate of the number of individual users by taking 1.2 million rides divided by 260 weekdays in a year yields
4,615 rides every day. Accounting for the fact that a trip would likely be 2-way to get to your destination and back to you origin, it's possible that as few as
2307 individuals can account for the overall ridership numbers of the system.
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Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 18, 2021, 10:31:07 PM
^ LOL. That's two riders accounted for! Only tens of thousands more to go.
You are invaluable citizens but I don't think anyone is worth $372 million (on top of tens of millions already invested + millions more in annual operating losses) to get a ride to work :).
I was just making a point that more than homeless people use the Skyway. That point was not intended to be validation for spending $400 million on the U2C plan.
^ Ennis, no slight was intended toward you (but maybe the Skyway). Just an attempt to add a little humor to the thread :).
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 19, 2021, 08:07:09 AM
You might get 1.2 million passenger trips in a year, but that does NOT mean that 1.2 million INDIVIDUALS ride in a year.
Presuming that a typical rider would ride the Skyway every working day to get around town, you can get a low-ball estimate of the number of individual users by taking 1.2 million rides divided by 260 weekdays in a year yields 4,615 rides every day. Accounting for the fact that a trip would likely be 2-way to get to your destination and back to you origin, it's possible that as few as 2307 individuals can account for the overall ridership numbers of the system.
[/b]
Well, when you break it down like that...
At least it hit hit the original ridership goal, 100,00 riders per month. However, it did take a couple decades to get there. Honestly, my opinion of the Skyway is going to be significantly affected by what the ridership looks like after COVID. Let's say the 2021-2022 fiscual year (hopefully). It would be the first fiscal year with the JRTC, Brooklyn station, all Flyer lines, and the new apartment complexes open without COVID messing with the numbers. If the ridership doesn't increase past 1.2 million, then that isn't a good sign.
Covid will likely still impact the number of daily office workers and events being hosted. It may take a few years to get a good read on how transit will ultimately be impacted nationwide.
^ We have been waiting over 30 years to get a "good read" on how the Skyway will perform... and there has never been a "good read," just awful ones.
COVID, Downtown development failures, not expansive enough, not connected properly to other transit systems, technology shortcomings... so many excuses. All just that... excuses for a system that will never be viable in my (common sense) opinion because it is simply not efficient, cost effective or user friendly.
The Skyway has failed to come anywhere close to ridership numbers projected for 30+ years ago levels for what is already built (i.e. without counting on a larger system and being free standing), even with free rides (original projections were based on users paying fares).
It's obvious to anyone not vested in the Skyway that it needs to be put out of its misery and monies currently directed to it or planned for the future need to be redeployed elsewhere where they can actually provide some value.
There is nothing in the cards, including autonomous vehicles or grade level expansions, that are going to change the spots on this animal. I think it would be a pretty safe wager that if JTA gets its way with the gas tax proposal, that in 10 or 20 years from now, people who support it will still be making excuses for its continued failures. For that, we taxpayers will be hundreds of millions of dollars poorer.
Want lipstick on a pig? Convert it to a Highline pedestrian walkway that might be a real asset to Downtown (instead of a black eye) and move on.