Quote"We're having a serious conversation about a facility here, a brand-new facility," [Head Coach Urban Meyer] said. "I've put together a sports performance team that I expect to be the best in the NFL. You're talking about Jacksonville, Florida ... no state tax and all of the above ... weather. I want this to be the destination place in the National Football League.
https://jaguarswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/07/urban-meyer-wants-new-jaguars-facility/
This is the Four Seasons Hotel development they are talking to the DIA about at Metropolitan Park.
"You're talking about Jacksonville, Florida ... no state tax and all of the above ... weather. "
Huh?
Quote from: Adam White on March 08, 2021, 04:53:56 AM
"You're talking about Jacksonville, Florida ... no state tax and all of the above ... weather. "
Huh?
He's saying he wants to make this, Jacksonville, the preferred destination for NFL stars. He's in a college recruiting mindset, but honestly it can't possibly hurt.
So after the Jaguars spent all this money creating a much needed indoor practice facility this isn't good enough for Coach Meyer because WHAT? Because they can't make practice a road trip from the stadium? And on top of that they are incapable of having a JambaJuice or blow dry bar adjacent to it? My oh my, this man can't be hamstrung by game-breaking issues like this when he makes his big pitch to free agents in the living rooms of their moms and dads!
There is no doubt that Urban Meyer is an incredibly talented coach but my big question with him is how will a man who has a history of not handling losses well deal with any sustained losing streaks, particularly when they may be due to things outside of his control?
Wasn't a new practice facility built just a few years back?
Quote from: Adam White on March 08, 2021, 04:53:56 AM
"You're talking about Jacksonville, Florida ... no state tax and all of the above ... weather. "
Huh?
What exactly is confusing about this?
Quote from: Downtown Osprey on March 08, 2021, 10:27:37 AM
Quote from: Adam White on March 08, 2021, 04:53:56 AM
"You're talking about Jacksonville, Florida ... no state tax and all of the above ... weather. "
Huh?
What exactly is confusing about this?
The sentence?
What "all of the above" is he referring to? I get it that no state tax and the weather are considerations. But what else is he talking about? It reads like they left out some stuff.
Quote from: Adam White on March 08, 2021, 10:30:37 AM
Quote from: Downtown Osprey on March 08, 2021, 10:27:37 AM
Quote from: Adam White on March 08, 2021, 04:53:56 AM
"You're talking about Jacksonville, Florida ... no state tax and all of the above ... weather. "
Huh?
What exactly is confusing about this?
The sentence?
What "all of the above" is he referring to? I get it that no state tax and the weather are considerations. But what else is he talking about? It reads like they left out some stuff.
Those are paraphrases from a longer intereview which you can listen to in full at the link provided within the article.
I think you are leaving out the preceding pieces:
Now that he's jumped to the NFL, he expects nothing less and told Jaguars.com the organization is having a serious conversation about a brand new team facility.
"We're having a serious conversation about a facility here, a brand-new facility," Meyer said. "I've put together a sports performance team that I expect to be the best in the NFL. And the next sentence which says
'I want this to be the destination place in the National Football League.'He is referring to creating an environment where players, coaches and staff want to leave other NFL teams to go to Jacksonville.
^LOL, I thought most pro players go wherever they get the most money 8). Why else would you play in places like Green Bay and Buffalo?
Quote from: fieldafm on March 08, 2021, 11:21:03 AM
Quote from: Adam White on March 08, 2021, 10:30:37 AM
Quote from: Downtown Osprey on March 08, 2021, 10:27:37 AM
Quote from: Adam White on March 08, 2021, 04:53:56 AM
"You're talking about Jacksonville, Florida ... no state tax and all of the above ... weather. "
Huh?
What exactly is confusing about this?
The sentence?
What "all of the above" is he referring to? I get it that no state tax and the weather are considerations. But what else is he talking about? It reads like they left out some stuff.
Those are paraphrases from a longer intereview which you can listen to in full at the link provided within the article.
I think you are leaving out the preceding pieces:
Now that he's jumped to the NFL, he expects nothing less and told Jaguars.com the organization is having a serious conversation about a brand new team facility.
"We're having a serious conversation about a facility here, a brand-new facility," Meyer said. "I've put together a sports performance team that I expect to be the best in the NFL.
And the next sentence which says 'I want this to be the destination place in the National Football League.'
He is referring to creating an environment where players, coaches and staff want to leave other NFL teams to go to Jacksonville.
Weird, the only link I saw led to a transcription of an interview (not a recording) and had that same problematic construction. I'll take your word for what he meant - it just threw me a bit. It kind of read like he said more, but when they edited it down for space, they left out relevant bits.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 08, 2021, 11:47:00 AM
^LOL, I thought most pro players go wherever they get the most money 8). Why else would you play in places like Green Bay and Buffalo?
Most guys do, but I think the money gets pretty close at the higher end of the free agency market. At that point it comes down to other factors, like which team gives you the best chance at competing for a championship? Top-tier facilities and a strong player development program puts teams in a better position to get the most out of young (inexpensive) talent, which is attractive to older (more expensive) players. It's not quite the end-all-be-all that it is in college, where facilities essentially ARE the compensation, but it's not nothing.
Taxpayers, hold on to your wallets. Looks like this ask could exceed $100 million! And, it may not even be in Duval County. Maybe some other taxpayers get the bill?
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/nfl/2021/03/08/urban-meyer-says-jaguars-having-serious-discussions-new-team-facility/4626835001/?utm_source=jacksonville-News%20Alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_alerts&utm_term=news_alert (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/nfl/2021/03/08/urban-meyer-says-jaguars-having-serious-discussions-new-team-facility/4626835001/?utm_source=jacksonville-News%20Alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_alerts&utm_term=news_alert)
Emphasis added.Quote
A majority of teams in the NFL have a stand-alone training facility, which includes both of the Florida teams — the Miami Dolphins and Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The Dolphins' $135 million, state-of-the-art facility is tentatively scheduled to open later this spring. The Carolina Panthers' new training facility on a 200-acre site in Rock Hill, S.C., is scheduled to be completed in 2023.
But since their inception in 1995, the Jaguars' training facility and team offices have been housed at TIAA Bank Field. Similar to the Jaguars, the Cincinnati Bengals and New England Patriots' training facility is housed inside their stadiums.
This site is so toxic when any Jags topic comes up. jesus y'all just need to STFU already. peace out.
Quote from: Rynjny on March 08, 2021, 06:37:18 PM
This site is so toxic when any Jags topic comes up. jesus y'all just need to STFU already. peace out.
Well, that's a good way to support our team :-[. You don't work for Curry do you?
Face it, there are at least 3 flavors of Jax Jag's citizens:
1. Those who could care less about the team - we shouldn't do anything to appease them.
2. Those who are infatuated with all things Jags (sounds like you qualify) - we should do everything to appease them.
3. Those who enjoy the Jags but draw a line somewhere on how much the taxpayers should appease them to keep them here. (Count me in this group.)
In the last category, there will be a wide range of lines drawn but the common thread is that the Jags don't have unlimited access to the taxpayer's pocketbooks. Further, if the Jags are going to be on the public dole, they should expect to have to deal with and address public inputs as they have made us their partners by using our funds.
This City has major unfunded and unmet needs that are piling up by the day due to our low tax structure and use of limited funds for, what some might argue, are less pressing priorities - which might include some or all of the Jag's projects.
So, please respect that there are differing opinions and choose a better way to make your points.
QuoteThe Miami Dolphins are also constructing a new facility with Miami Orthopedics and Sports medicine worth $135 million. It will be privately funded by their owner Stephen Ross.
I don't see this as anything new or it being outside of the sports district. What's described in the Miami Dolphins example is exactly what's proposed next door to the Four Seasons Hotel site.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 07, 2021, 08:35:14 PM
Quote"We're having a serious conversation about a facility here, a brand-new facility," [Head Coach Urban Meyer] said. "I've put together a sports performance team that I expect to be the best in the NFL. You're talking about Jacksonville, Florida ... no state tax and all of the above ... weather. I want this to be the destination place in the National Football League.
https://jaguarswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/07/urban-meyer-wants-new-jaguars-facility/
It makes a lot of sense and Sports Performance is a lucrative business. Most athletes across the professional leagues come to the same facilities for surgeries and rehab. These procedures are paid for by the teams. So, if you get a top notch Sports Performance facility and doctors to come to Jax then you could drive a lot of revenue for players hanging out for a few weeks while they rehab. I'm not saying that the city should foot the bill but this does make a lot of sense for the Jags to add to their business portfolio.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 08, 2021, 11:47:00 AM
^LOL, I thought most pro players go wherever they get the most money 8). Why else would you play in places like Green Bay and Buffalo?
Money is certainly the main factor but facilities are a large piece of the puzzle also... I cannot speak about Buffalo but the Packers facilities are some of the best in the NFL...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 09, 2021, 06:59:32 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 08, 2021, 11:47:00 AM
^LOL, I thought most pro players go wherever they get the most money 8). Why else would you play in places like Green Bay and Buffalo?
Money is certainly the main factor but facilities are a large piece of the puzzle also... I cannot speak about Buffalo but the Packers facilities are some of the best in the NFL...
Apparently Buffalo is very top notch...
https://www.sorinex.com/blogs/newsroom/bills-new-sports-performance-center
They have been surveying the north end of lot N, right next to the practice fields. Most likely going to be the location of the new Facility.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 09, 2021, 08:16:40 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 09, 2021, 06:59:32 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 08, 2021, 11:47:00 AM
^LOL, I thought most pro players go wherever they get the most money 8). Why else would you play in places like Green Bay and Buffalo?
Money is certainly the main factor but facilities are a large piece of the puzzle also... I cannot speak about Buffalo but the Packers facilities are some of the best in the NFL...
Apparently Buffalo is very top notch...
https://www.sorinex.com/blogs/newsroom/bills-new-sports-performance-center
Looks like Meyer might be copying Buffalo in more ways than one 8) :
Quote in Times Union article from Meyer (emphasis added):
Quote''Obviously, money plays a huge role, but if those start to get close: "We want to go to Jacksonville. Why? Great place to raise a family, a great place to live, great weather, great tax situation – and oh by the way: We have the best facility and the best support staff and best sports performance team in the NFL. That's the vision. That's the dream I have,'' Meyer told Jaguars.com.
''It's much easier in the NFL when you're talking about free agency, but you start getting into age and money. That's what I'm not used to. In college, you're 17-to-22 years old. I just got done watching a 32-year-old defensive lineman where it's, "How much more does he have left in his tank?" And then: "What's the value?"
Quotes by Buffalo personnel:
QuoteThe timing of the facility opening was planned, too. Players started the offseason conditioning program Monday, but ahead of that, Beane used the new facility as a recruiting tool. He sent pictures and renderings of the facility to agents of free-agent players the team was interested in signing.
"I advertised it to as many agents as I could," he said. "If they showed them to them, great, if they didn't that was on them. I said, 'I want you to at least be able to tell them what this new thing looks like.'
"Obviously, money and fit for the players matters probably more than that, but if we can win some ties because of that, that's huge. Word of mouth is going to be big on what we've got going here. Our goal is to help players extend their career. That's how you ultimately make more money, is the longevity."
That's what Beasley was referring to when contrasting the Bills to the Cowboys – one of the NFL's elite franchises.
"They want to go to a place that they feel they can extend their career," Kim Pegula said of free agents. "They know the importance of taking care of their bodies. They're looking for a place that cares about them and has the facilities to keep them on the field, extend their career, and in the long run they'll make more money as a player. Performance will improve. They'll get to spend another year or more in the league. I believe that will be a huge factor for free agents coming in."
Apparently Buffalo is very top notch...
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2021, 10:17:24 PM
This is the Four Seasons Hotel development they are talking to the DIA about at Metropolitan Park.
Are you sure? Seems to me like Meyer wants a purpose built "world class" facility. I know there's talk of the orthopaedics place at the four seasons and dailys place has the flex field but the vibe I got was a purpose built facility rather than sort of what exists just now of the added parts dotted around the stadium, which would lead me to believe somewhere suburban close to where most of their players and staff live and with cheap land to build something substantial, therefore the Southside or St. Johns/Clay.
Quote from: landfall on March 09, 2021, 04:04:38 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2021, 10:17:24 PM
This is the Four Seasons Hotel development they are talking to the DIA about at Metropolitan Park.
Are you sure? Seems to me like Meyer wants a purpose built "world class" facility. I know there's talk of the orthopaedics place at the four seasons and dailys place has the flex field but the vibe I got was a purpose built facility rather than sort of what exists just now of the added parts dotted around the stadium, which would lead me to believe somewhere suburban close to where most of their players and staff live and with cheap land to build something substantial, therefore the Southside or St. Johns/Clay.
Agree. Just check out the description and photos below from the Buffalo link:
QuoteSome of the highlights include:
• A new, 26,000-square-foot weight room – more than triple its previous size – that features more than 100 pieces of equipment, including 16 complete Sorinex racks.
• A renovated and expanded training room/sport science area that is more than 14,000 square feet – double what was previously in place. Included in that training room is a 1,600-square-foot player recovery space and 700-square-foot player recovery lounge.
• Want to cool down? A newly installed Cryotherapy unit provides temperatures as low as minus-197.5 degrees Fahrenheit.
• Need to warm up? The new hot yoga studio can reach up to 100 degrees, while the new sauna can send the mercury soaring to 190 degrees.
• The state-of-the-art AV system includes 2,300-square-feet of high-definition projection – the equivalent of 150 70-inch televisions tiled together.
• The sound system in the weight room can reach 130 decibels – the same as a military jet taking off from an aircraft carrier with afterburners at 50 feet. The system is powered by 18,000 watts – 50 percent more than an IMAX theater speaker system.
So, yes, it has all the bells and whistles, but as Beane said, "It's not just a showpiece. It's practical."
"I think we wanted to create, at least from the strength and conditioning part of it, a room that's clean, but still tough," said Eric Ciano, the team's head of strength and conditioning. "It doesn't have a warehouse feel. It's still an intimate atmosphere where guys work together and aren't so spread out. That was one of the big goals – is that guys really get to know each other in that room. We build the team in that area. We wanted them in there close and together."
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/buffalonews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/97/1972b269-beab-5301-869a-7778201280d7/5ef224d8354b5.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C800)
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/buffalonews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/8d/e8d2ea60-67f9-5b71-a67d-4fce53b07f92/5ef224d92f57a.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C800)
I get the impression of the Green Bay facilities, which are literally across the street from Lambeau Field. That would be more in line with their consistent desire to cluster their investments together to create a sports and entertainment destination. A remote facility doesn't exactly align with the direction they've taken the last decade. From the original Shipyards plan, to the amphitheater, Lot J and now the Four Seasons proposal, they all included some component of team facilities and offices. Reading those linked articles, I don't get the vibe that being a suburban location, especially something outside of Duval County (do most of the players/staff even stay outside of Duval or is that assumed?). Everything the Jags have done to date has required COJ to be a significant financial partner. I can't imagine COJ contributing to something outside of its limits, any of the other counties remotely offering up the type of financial assistance they've come to rely on or COJ being a willing player.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2021, 04:42:22 PM
I get the impression of the Green Bay facilities, which are literally across the street from Lambeau Field. That would be more in line with their consistent desire to cluster their investments together to create a sports and entertainment destination. A remote facility doesn't exactly align with the direction they've taken the last decade. From the original Shipyards plan, to the amphitheater, Lot J and now the Four Seasons proposal, they all included some component of team facilities and offices. Reading those linked articles, I don't get the vibe that being a suburban location, especially something outside of Duval County (do most of the players/staff even stay outside of Duval or is that assumed?). Everything the Jags have done to date has required COJ to be a significant financial partner. I can't imagine COJ contributing to something outside of its limits, any of the other counties remotely offering up the type of financial assistance they've come to rely on or COJ being a willing player.
If they are to build something major downtown containing some of the things listed in the Buffalo facility they'd probably require to use the shipyards vacant land or rip up more parking lots. Maybe this is their home run attempt for the next round of negotiations as we've all kind of theorised about what they'll ask for, I.e. a roof over the stadium?
I visited Lambeau in 2016. Its a truly year round facility and they've since been building out the title town district. Its a bit of a different dynamic of course up there compared to here with the size of the city, placing of the stadium and the historical standing of that team. I've always felt they're smarting after the Shipyards Lot J failure. Part of me is sort of willing to let them create a campus of sorts utilising dormant land that I'm sick of continuing to sit without a purpose, but part of me thinks this is major riverfront land, it deserves more than a football field or a fitness center.
^ My guess is that for enough compensation, the approximate 15 acre fairgrounds could be put into play. It's even contiguous to the Jag's outdoor practice fields. Seems that would fit the bill for all the Jag's needs pretty close to perfectly.
I believe repurposing the fairgrounds has come up before but the offers were not sweet enough. Time to try again?
I remember reading something about a proposal during Brown's administration to move the Fairgrounds to the Cecil area, presumably near the Equestrian Center. Could that end up in play?
Bonus, there were repeated mentions by Lake of the possibility of shuffling the Lot J elements to Lots M, N and P, which it turns out I mocked up a few months back:
(https://i.imgur.com/5UQKHjh.png)
Package all of that together and be realistic about what it would cost (for the love of God try the slightest amount to not openly rip taxpayers off) and I think it could be reasonably popular. Public gets all the Lot J stuff (maybe even get the high rises back?) and a new Fairgrounds (increased incentive for development on the Westside!), Jags get their fancy new team facility and presumably at least some of the returns on the development.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2021, 04:42:22 PM
I get the impression of the Green Bay facilities, which are literally across the street from Lambeau Field. That would be more in line with their consistent desire to cluster their investments together to create a sports and entertainment destination. A remote facility doesn't exactly align with the direction they've taken the last decade. From the original Shipyards plan, to the amphitheater, Lot J and now the Four Seasons proposal, they all included some component of team facilities and offices. Reading those linked articles, I don't get the vibe that being a suburban location, especially something outside of Duval County.
100% correct here.
Logistically, it makes zero sense to have the facilities removed from the sports district, and goes against the Jags' overall philosophy about development.
The most two logical locations are Lot N (which Lostwave mentioned earlier), and the Fairgrounds (which Curry and Hughes have been in discussions with the Jags about as recently as November). Both are adjacent to the existing practice fields.
The facilities that Urban Meyer are talking about simply involve removing cramped player facilities and team operations that are currently inside of the stadium and building better standalone versions outside the stadium.
Someone earlier mentioned that the public ask could be over $100 million for new facilities. Unless it's dragged out long enough to be tied to the stadium expansion, I can't imagine there will be any significant public ask for the new team facilities.
The Orthopedics center at Met Park is an entirely different thing.
Hasn't been formally announced, but that won't be a Jags thing, it'll be built and operated by Baptist Health (assuming all the things that never fall into place actually do fall into place).
The deal includes a 30-year commitment for the Bills to remain in Buffalo, and a combined $550 million from the NFL and Bills, which was approved Monday by NFL owners. The Governor will advance a $600 million proposal in the state budget, and Erie County will contribute $250 million. That total share of publicly financing adds up to 60.7% of the funding required to build the stadium.
"Just comparing where we were in the past, when this stadium was originally built in 1973, 100% of that was financed by the public. Even the renovations in 1998, 100% financed by the public sector. And our financing back in 2013 when the renovations were made, that was 73%," Gov. Hochul explained. "We negotiated hard, we drove those numbers down, and now our state share is 43% and the public share overall is only 60.7%."
I work in marketing, so I know how percentages are often used to obfuscate the true costs. Comparing dollars to dollars, the numbers don't look as good as what the politicians and NFL are selling. The Bills' stadium was built for the equivalent of $141 million in today's dollars. That means the Buffalo taxpayers are investing more than 6 times as much as they did to originally build the stadium.
In Jax's case, the Jags stadium was constructed for the equivalent of $225 million in today's dollars. In 2013, the city contributed the equivalent of $76 million in today's dollars for the scoreboards and pools. Then we had the renovation in 2016 for $106 million in today's dollars. That's about $407 million for roughly the Jaguars first decade of existence.
Looking at the next decade or so, we've got the $60 million public investment. Then let's say the Jags evenly split a $1 billion stadium project. That's maybe $560 million over the next decade and that's probably conservative. So let's say $56 million a year in public investment to keep the Jags to make it easier to comprehend.
Do we offset the $56 million price through taxes collected and direct economic impact to the community each year? Does the community benefit enough in other ways to justify the investment? Personally, I'm skeptical, but I'm open to hearing any figures that might change my mind.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 29, 2022, 05:34:20 PM
I work in marketing, so I know how percentages are often used to obfuscate the true costs. Comparing dollars to dollars, the numbers don't look as good as what the politicians and NFL are selling. The Bills' stadium was built for the equivalent of $141 million in today's dollars. That means the Buffalo taxpayers are investing more than 6 times as much as they did to originally build the stadium.
In Jax's case, the Jags stadium was constructed for the equivalent of $225 million in today's dollars. In 2013, the city contributed the equivalent of $76 million in today's dollars for the scoreboards and pools. Then we had the renovation in 2016 for $106 million in today's dollars. That's about $407 million for roughly the Jaguars first decade of existence.
Looking at the next decade or so, we've got the $60 million public investment. Then let's say the Jags evenly split a $1 billion stadium project. That's maybe $560 million over the next decade and that's probably conservative. So let's say $56 million a year in public investment to keep the Jags to make it easier to comprehend.
Do we offset the $56 million price through taxes collected and direct economic impact to the community each year? Does the community benefit enough in other ways to justify the investment? Personally, I'm skeptical, but I'm open to hearing any figures that might change my mind.
You can't put a price on a man's soul, can you?
But seriously. An update on the Titans stadium plans:
"When looking into the potential costs, he said the number came back 'very palatable' at around $500 to $600 million. However, due to high inflation rates, Nihill said when the team recently did a second check-in on the potential costs, the renovation price nearly doubled to $1.2 billion."
https://www.newschannel5.com/news/titans-working-on-plans-to-build-new-stadium-next-to-nissan
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 29, 2022, 05:34:20 PM
In Jax's case, the Jags stadium was constructed for the equivalent of $225 million in today's dollars. In 2013, the city contributed the equivalent of $76 million in today's dollars for the scoreboards and pools. Then we had the renovation in 2016 for $106 million in today's dollars. That's about $407 million for roughly the Jaguars first decade of existence.
First decade? The stadium was built in 1993 and opened in August of 1995. That's nearly thirty years. Talk about obfuscating costs. Using your example, the city has contributed $15M a year toward facilities for the Jaguars. I do not know the amount that the city gets in return as far as bed tax and sales tax dollars go, but I will say the city definitely spends more than $15M a year on things that provide less return.
I mean, we knew this day was coming when the team would need either a new stadium or an extensively renovated one. To me the team committed to an extensive renovation when Lamping said what he said a few months back that the place was structurally sound.
We need to see numbers, but I'm guessing this will be somewhere around $700 Million, and if the Jags offer to split it then that's not a bad deal in my eyes, assuming of course this comes with a lease extension (25-30 years from date of completion). I don't see us going the dome route (plus I doubt the building could support that) and that's fine. My thought is something similar to Miami/Seattle where the seats are shaded but the stadium is otherwise open air. That could require a total rebuild of the upper decks, and I'm guessing if you did that you'd do the suites/press boxes, and you MIGHT add a club level (which seems to be more popular than the way the Jags did their club section).
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 29, 2022, 05:34:20 PM
I work in marketing, so I know how percentages are often used to obfuscate the true costs. Comparing dollars to dollars, the numbers don't look as good as what the politicians and NFL are selling. The Bills' stadium was built for the equivalent of $141 million in today's dollars. That means the Buffalo taxpayers are investing more than 6 times as much as they did to originally build the stadium.
In Jax's case, the Jags stadium was constructed for the equivalent of $225 million in today's dollars. In 2013, the city contributed the equivalent of $76 million in today's dollars for the scoreboards and pools. Then we had the renovation in 2016 for $106 million in today's dollars. That's about $407 million for roughly the Jaguars first decade of existence.
Looking at the next decade or so, we've got the $60 million public investment. Then let's say the Jags evenly split a $1 billion stadium project. That's maybe $560 million over the next decade and that's probably conservative. So let's say $56 million a year in public investment to keep the Jags to make it easier to comprehend.
Do we offset the $56 million price through taxes collected and direct economic impact to the community each year? Does the community benefit enough in other ways to justify the investment? Personally, I'm skeptical, but I'm open to hearing any figures that might change my mind.
As a fellow marketing/analytics guy who's somewhat close to the numbers through working with the city, I've got a slightly different take on it.
First, to clean up the timeline a little bit and go a little deeper into a few of the investments:
1992 - Before any serious talk of NFL expansion, the City of Jacksonville agreed to nearly $50 million in renovations to Jax Municipal Stadium to keep Georgia-Florida here through 2002.
1993 - In an effort to secure an NFL franchise, the city upped the stadium renovation to $121 million. So really, we can't really say that we spent $121 million to build a stadium for the Jags when we were already committed to a badly needed $50 million renovation already. True incremental number for the original stadium build from an NFL perspective is around $71 million.
That puts us at $71 million in stadium costs to get us through the first 10 years of the franchise's existence.
2004 - The city spends an additional $47 million to upgrade EverBank Field ahead of Super Bowl XXXIX. This is when the Bud Zone, escalators, and original video board were added. Yes, the Jags benefited from the stadium renovations, but the impetus for this spend was to make EverBank Field more attractive for events like Super Bowls and to keep Georgia and Florida happy. So I don't think it's fair to say that this investment was made to keep the Jags in Jacksonville either. Let's call it 50/50 and say $24 million went to the Jags.
So that's $95 million.
2013 - The city commits another $43 million to the scoreboard additions and endzone improvements.
2015 - The city tosses in another $45 million for Daily's Place, Flex Field, and club seat renovations. I won't deduct it, but do keep in mind that the city had been trying to build an amphitheater since the Delaney administration.
So, that's $183 million (non-adjusted for inflation and interest, which is admittedly significant) in "public" money toward keeping the NFL here over the last 26 seasons.
So that's roughly $7 million per year (plus debt service) that we've spent as a city on the stadium in support of the Jags up to this point.
Feels like a steal when you look at the broader NFL landscape and how much other cities are paying.
Especially when you consider how little of that has actually come out of the pockets of the actual Jacksonville's taxpayers.
All of the major improvements have been debt-financed off the back of our local bed tax, meaning that tourists bear a heavier burden for these stadium projects than locals do. 2% straight up goes toward paying off stadium debt, and another 2% was put toward maintenance of the sports complex after the Prime Osborne was paid off.
Additionally, we get $2 million from the state each year as a sale tax rebate for relief with stadium debt; $5 million+ a year from ticket surcharges and parking revenue; over $4 million a year from the Jags in rent; $1 million in concessions, etc.
Now, the stadium isn't entirely self-sustaining and the economics will never make compelling sense on a balance sheet, but - particularly since we upped the bed tax contribution to 4% - we're drawing very little from the general fund to pay for the stadium. More money has probably come out of the general fund to force Toney Sleiman out of the Landing than has come out to pay for the stadium over the last 8 or 9 years.
And, if we were to put $560 million into renovating the stadium, it won't be a $56 million annual public investment over 10 years, it will another long-term debt-financed project paid off primarily by revenue sources that can only be used for similar projects (the bed tax), and from revenue sources that wouldn't exist in the absence of the stadium (ticket surcharges, parking revenue, concessions, escalating rent payments from the Jags, etc.).
Will there still be a high taxpayer cost? Sure, but it's not going to cripple the city.
Realistically, the biggest short-term tradeoff is that a true convention center probably won't be coming any time soon.
Any maybe we'll have to wait on spending $1 billion+ to relocate the jail.
One other thing that's probably worth pointing out when talking about the stadium is that we're not just talking about renovations for the sake of keeping the Jags in Jacksonville for another 20-30 years (FWIW, I've heard the proposed lease extension is going to be closer to 20 years than 30 years). We're also talking about keeping Georgia-Florida long-term, competing for NCAA playoff games and major events, and keeping Jacksonville competitive and relevant in the event space over the coming decades. Less glamorous aspects of the stadium like the electrical and drainage systems are reaching end-of-life and will need to be renovated regardless of what happens with the Jags.
Jacksonville is growing, our bed taxes are only going to continue to increase, and I think it's a bit of a strawman argument when people argue that the full brunt of our stadium share is going to come at the expense of our schools, infrastructure, crime prevention, hospitals, etc.
Hate the NFL monopoly and how the league leaches off its host cities, and the Jags have ruined more Sundays for me than I can count over the last decade, but to me, financing a new stadium tied to a lease extension guaranteed to keep the NFL in Jacksonville through 2050+ is the biggest no brainer out there.
Ken, thanks for all that background. Very helpful.
As far as the Bed Tax, there is only 2% remaining, which currently is funding tourism marketing, IIRC. If that final 2% is taken for a renovated stadium, where would that leave the Tourism/CVB?
Quote from: vicupstate on March 30, 2022, 12:56:48 PM
Ken, thanks for all that background. Very helpful.
As far as the Bed Tax, there is only 2% remaining, which currently is funding tourism marketing, IIRC. If that final 2% is taken for a renovated stadium, where would that leave the Tourism/CVB?
Correct! That 2% for the CVB/Visit Jax won't be going anywhere for at least another 10 years.
But - and would need to look this up to be sure - I believe the original stadium build was financed over 30 years.
So, by the time it's actually time to break ground on major renovations circa 2025, we should hopefully be free and clear of the original debt and able to start putting some of that 2% toward the public share of the next renovations.
Dead horse at this point, but still a shame that the well was so badly poisoned on the potential of selling JEA.
I do think you could make a strong case for (and against) helping the city make a giant leap forward (new stadium, convention center, improved mass transit, etc.) with that influx of cash, versus paying long-term interest on all of these projects.
I feel like its only a matter of time until Lot J 2.0 proposals appears on the scene.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 30, 2022, 02:18:48 PM
Dead horse at this point, but still a shame that the well was so badly poisoned on the potential of selling JEA.
I do think you could make a strong case for (and against) helping the city make a giant leap forward (new stadium, convention center, improved mass transit, etc.) with that influx of cash, versus paying long-term interest on all of these projects.
Seriously. I was truly open to the conversation until the $hit hit the fan and you understood the motives behind it. We could have had a serious, honest conversation about it.
In terms of Lot J 2.0.....I think they're going to concentrate on the river but at the right time, I'm totally open to the conversation. What sunk Lot J was the economics behind it; they were awful. It also didn't help that Curry got into it on Twitter with CM Dennis about meeting hookers in Orange Park then Dennis was the deciding vote.
I'd say realistically if they actually developed the former Met Park then they might circle back on Lot J.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 30, 2022, 12:26:41 PM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 29, 2022, 05:34:20 PM
I work in marketing, so I know how percentages are often used to obfuscate the true costs. Comparing dollars to dollars, the numbers don't look as good as what the politicians and NFL are selling. The Bills' stadium was built for the equivalent of $141 million in today's dollars. That means the Buffalo taxpayers are investing more than 6 times as much as they did to originally build the stadium.
In Jax's case, the Jags stadium was constructed for the equivalent of $225 million in today's dollars. In 2013, the city contributed the equivalent of $76 million in today's dollars for the scoreboards and pools. Then we had the renovation in 2016 for $106 million in today's dollars. That's about $407 million for roughly the Jaguars first decade of existence.
Looking at the next decade or so, we've got the $60 million public investment. Then let's say the Jags evenly split a $1 billion stadium project. That's maybe $560 million over the next decade and that's probably conservative. So let's say $56 million a year in public investment to keep the Jags to make it easier to comprehend.
Do we offset the $56 million price through taxes collected and direct economic impact to the community each year? Does the community benefit enough in other ways to justify the investment? Personally, I'm skeptical, but I'm open to hearing any figures that might change my mind.
As a fellow marketing/analytics guy who's somewhat close to the numbers through working with the city, I've got a slightly different take on it.
First, to clean up the timeline a little bit and go a little deeper into a few of the investments:
1992 - Before any serious talk of NFL expansion, the City of Jacksonville agreed to nearly $50 million in renovations to Jax Municipal Stadium to keep Georgia-Florida here through 2002.
1993 - In an effort to secure an NFL franchise, the city upped the stadium renovation to $121 million. So really, we can't really say that we spent $121 million to build a stadium for the Jags when we were already committed to a badly needed $50 million renovation already. True incremental number for the original stadium build from an NFL perspective is around $71 million.
That puts us at $71 million in stadium costs to get us through the first 10 years of the franchise's existence.
2004 - The city spends an additional $47 million to upgrade EverBank Field ahead of Super Bowl XXXIX. This is when the Bud Zone, escalators, and original video board were added. Yes, the Jags benefited from the stadium renovations, but the impetus for this spend was to make EverBank Field more attractive for events like Super Bowls and to keep Georgia and Florida happy. So I don't think it's fair to say that this investment was made to keep the Jags in Jacksonville either. Let's call it 50/50 and say $24 million went to the Jags.
So that's $95 million.
2013 - The city commits another $43 million to the scoreboard additions and endzone improvements.
2015 - The city tosses in another $45 million for Daily's Place, Flex Field, and club seat renovations. I won't deduct it, but do keep in mind that the city had been trying to build an amphitheater since the Delaney administration.
So, that's $183 million (non-adjusted for inflation and interest, which is admittedly significant) in "public" money toward keeping the NFL here over the last 26 seasons.
So that's roughly $7 million per year (plus debt service) that we've spent as a city on the stadium in support of the Jags up to this point.
Feels like a steal when you look at the broader NFL landscape and how much other cities are paying.
Especially when you consider how little of that has actually come out of the pockets of the actual Jacksonville's taxpayers.
All of the major improvements have been debt-financed off the back of our local bed tax, meaning that tourists bear a heavier burden for these stadium projects than locals do. 2% straight up goes toward paying off stadium debt, and another 2% was put toward maintenance of the sports complex after the Prime Osborne was paid off.
Additionally, we get $2 million from the state each year as a sale tax rebate for relief with stadium debt; $5 million+ a year from ticket surcharges and parking revenue; over $4 million a year from the Jags in rent; $1 million in concessions, etc.
Now, the stadium isn't entirely self-sustaining and the economics will never make compelling sense on a balance sheet, but - particularly since we upped the bed tax contribution to 4% - we're drawing very little from the general fund to pay for the stadium. More money has probably come out of the general fund to force Toney Sleiman out of the Landing than has come out to pay for the stadium over the last 8 or 9 years.
And, if we were to put $560 million into renovating the stadium, it won't be a $56 million annual public investment over 10 years, it will another long-term debt-financed project paid off primarily by revenue sources that can only be used for similar projects (the bed tax), and from revenue sources that wouldn't exist in the absence of the stadium (ticket surcharges, parking revenue, concessions, escalating rent payments from the Jags, etc.).
Will there still be a high taxpayer cost? Sure, but it's not going to cripple the city.
Realistically, the biggest short-term tradeoff is that a true convention center probably won't be coming any time soon.
Any maybe we'll have to wait on spending $1 billion+ to relocate the jail.
One other thing that's probably worth pointing out when talking about the stadium is that we're not just talking about renovations for the sake of keeping the Jags in Jacksonville for another 20-30 years (FWIW, I've heard the proposed lease extension is going to be closer to 20 years than 30 years). We're also talking about keeping Georgia-Florida long-term, competing for NCAA playoff games and major events, and keeping Jacksonville competitive and relevant in the event space over the coming decades. Less glamorous aspects of the stadium like the electrical and drainage systems are reaching end-of-life and will need to be renovated regardless of what happens with the Jags.
Jacksonville is growing, our bed taxes are only going to continue to increase, and I think it's a bit of a strawman argument when people argue that the full brunt of our stadium share is going to come at the expense of our schools, infrastructure, crime prevention, hospitals, etc.
Hate the NFL monopoly and how the league leaches off its host cities, and the Jags have ruined more Sundays for me than I can count over the last decade, but to me, financing a new stadium tied to a lease extension guaranteed to keep the NFL in Jacksonville through 2050+ is the biggest no brainer out there.
Have long maintained that in terms of being an NFL city, Jacksonville has enjoyed 30 years of very frugal decisions thanks to decisions made in the Ed Austin/John Delaney days. We've enjoyed lobster dinners at Popeyes prices when it comes to the public contributions to being an NFL city.
Ken doesn't include the suite and general tickets COJ pays for at games when discussing annual costs.... but that doesn't put the finger on the scales at the end of the day.
IMO the "new stadium mania" in the NFL is very overblown. Mostly everyone already got their freaking stadium. IMO the hype that every stadium has to be a facsimile of ATL's or LV's, costing 2 billion and every stadium has only a "thirty year life span" is all a bunch of BS. Think stadium renovation in most cases (concerning slightly outdated stadiums) not a brand new stadium.
Lets face it, this new stadium talk isn't about practicality; it's all about raising a NFL team's value. The "perfect modern stadium" with the latest prototyped electronics, a gazillion foot concourses, and window dressing that makes SoFi Stadium and Allegiant Stadium blush; or you can spend alot less money making sense like Miami and just renovate the hell out of the stadium.
TBH, I can only foresee a handful of teams actually getting a stadium in the future.
Buffalo
LA Chargers (possibly to another city in the future; high NFL value in LA but no fans seemingly care)
Washington (one of the worst, if not the worst stadium in the league)
Chicago (Ruined OG Soldier Field; current stadium is way to small for that market)
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 30, 2022, 09:40:25 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 29, 2022, 05:34:20 PM
In Jax's case, the Jags stadium was constructed for the equivalent of $225 million in today's dollars. In 2013, the city contributed the equivalent of $76 million in today's dollars for the scoreboards and pools. Then we had the renovation in 2016 for $106 million in today's dollars. That's about $407 million for roughly the Jaguars first decade of existence.
First decade? The stadium was built in 1993 and opened in August of 1995. That's nearly thirty years. Talk about obfuscating costs. Using your example, the city has contributed $15M a year toward facilities for the Jaguars. I do not know the amount that the city gets in return as far as bed tax and sales tax dollars go, but I will say the city definitely spends more than $15M a year on things that provide less return.
***Inserts foot in mouth***
You're right. Should know better than to do math when I'm tired. lol. That makes the numbers much better as far as our past taxpayer contributions as Ken_FSU pointed out. Thanks for all the figures, Ken. I'm obviously not in the know on the specifics. That definitely softens my stance on the issue a bit. I'd love to see a comprehensive third-party accounting of the economic impact vs. the public investment because I'm sure we're still leaving a lot of considerations out.
I am still not keen on the general idea of having tax payers subsidize this business that really doesn't need the help, but it's not much worse than the other money we spend on bringing businesses to Jax I suppose. At best, we essentially break even with the status quo, so I'm inclined to push hard in any future negotiations to limit our exposure without worrying too much about the proposition the Jags leave one day.
(https://i.ibb.co/XZ6LLzG/unnamed-1.jpg)
Meanwhile, the Jags website has a survey on "The Stadium of the Future"
WJXT story: https://www.news4jax.com/sports/2022/03/31/shade-better-wi-fi-full-roof-jaguars-reaching-out-to-fans-on-upgraded-stadium-choices/
TU story: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/columns/gene-frenette/2022/04/01/jaguars-city-have-every-incentive-find-solution-renovated-stadium/7241079001/
Apparently, the survey is limited to people the Jags sent an email to.
Quote from: I-10east on March 31, 2022, 03:40:44 AM
Lets face it, this new stadium talk isn't about practicality; it's all about raising a NFL team's value. The "perfect modern stadium" with the latest prototyped electronics, a gazillion foot concourses, and window dressing that makes SoFi Stadium and Allegiant Stadium blush; or you can spend alot less money making sense like Miami and just renovate the hell out of the stadium.
I was recently in Nissan stadium and it is in desperate need of replacement. They tried to go the renovation route, but it just needs too much work. What was initially a $600M price tag is now $1B, so you might as well start anew. The state of Tennessee has now stepped in to contribute $500M to the cost of building a new stadium. As the survey below states, the Jags stadium is structurally sound and to me it is in much better condition than Nissan stadium. We will be able to do a Miami style renovation, but the Titans don't have that option.
Is there a mechanism in place now to ask for and received funding from the State for stadium reno? Did the Dolphins receive any state money? How about the Bucs or other professional teams in the state?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 01, 2022, 09:08:18 AM
Apparently, the survey is limited to people the Jags sent an email to.
I got the survey. Not from the Jaguars directly but through the 1st DownTown Jacksonville initiative.
Quote from: Papa33 on April 01, 2022, 11:32:19 AM
Is there a mechanism in place now to ask for and received funding from the State for stadium reno? Did the Dolphins receive any state money? How about the Bucs or other professional teams in the state?
The Dolphins did not get state assistance during their last renovation. They do receive some annual incentives from the County.
There is an annual rebate program available at the State level, provided there are stadium improvements totaling at least $200mm. It was established just after the Dolphins started on their renovations, but it has never been tapped into. State legislators have been trying to close that program for years, and likely will in the next year.
From reading the tea leaves over the last decade, it would likely be a very heavy lift for Jacksonville to get incentives from the State of Florida for stadium construction. It was a pretty heavy lift to get Federal and State funding for the Hart Bridge ramp removals.
Jacksonville currently gets $2mm in sales taxes rebated annually, which will end around the time the stadium lease ends.
The new Formula One race series coming to Miami is also seeking to exempt ticket sales all together from being subject to state sales taxes. Currently, the Super Bowl, Pro Bowl and all of the college championship games are exempt from sales taxes.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 01, 2022, 10:03:02 AM
I was recently in Nissan stadium and it is in desperate need of replacement. They tried to go the renovation route, but it just needs too much work. What was initially a $600M price tag is now $1B, so you might as well start anew. The state of Tennessee has now stepped in to contribute $500M to the cost of building a new stadium. As the survey below states, the Jags stadium is structurally sound and to me it is in much better condition than Nissan stadium. We will be able to do a Miami style renovation, but the Titans don't have that option.
I hear ya Capt. Thanks for the info.
Interesting note is that both the city and the Jags want the new stadium to have a fixed number of seats, built to accommodate both the Jags and Florida/Georgia. There won't be an option for temporary seating like we have now. Will be interesting to see what the capacity is. 63k feels just about right for our market from an NFL perspective, but the colleges will probably want 20,000 more than that.
Good point, Ken.
If they add a partial roof, I don't see how they could add temporary seats - at least the way they do it now by extending the endzone seating.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 02, 2022, 12:13:39 PM
Interesting note is that both the city and the Jags want the new stadium to have a fixed number of seats, built to accommodate both the Jags and Florida/Georgia. There won't be an option for temporary seating like we have now. Will be interesting to see what the capacity is. 63k feels just about right for our market from an NFL perspective, but the colleges will probably want 20,000 more than that.
One of the survey's questions I think hinted how they plan to handle that. They mentioned the interest in standing room only with a bar type set-up, probably similar to the Dicks Wings Zone. May be a way to squirrel more people into the stadium for Florida Georgia without needing to add more seats than the Jags can support.
FANTASTIC article from the Ringer about what's happening in Oakland right now.
https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2022/4/4/23003293/oakland-athletics-coliseum-sports-town-negotiations
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 01, 2022, 10:03:02 AM
Quote from: I-10east on March 31, 2022, 03:40:44 AM
Lets face it, this new stadium talk isn't about practicality; it's all about raising a NFL team's value. The "perfect modern stadium" with the latest prototyped electronics, a gazillion foot concourses, and window dressing that makes SoFi Stadium and Allegiant Stadium blush; or you can spend alot less money making sense like Miami and just renovate the hell out of the stadium.
I was recently in Nissan stadium and it is in desperate need of replacement. They tried to go the renovation route, but it just needs too much work. What was initially a $600M price tag is now $1B, so you might as well start anew. The state of Tennessee has now stepped in to contribute $500M to the cost of building a new stadium. As the survey below states, the Jags stadium is structurally sound and to me it is in much better condition than Nissan stadium. We will be able to do a Miami style renovation, but the Titans don't have that option.
How did Nissan Stadium fall into such disrepair? It's 4 years newer than the Bank?
Quote from: Steve on April 05, 2022, 12:22:51 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 01, 2022, 10:03:02 AM
Quote from: I-10east on March 31, 2022, 03:40:44 AM
Lets face it, this new stadium talk isn't about practicality; it's all about raising a NFL team's value. The "perfect modern stadium" with the latest prototyped electronics, a gazillion foot concourses, and window dressing that makes SoFi Stadium and Allegiant Stadium blush; or you can spend alot less money making sense like Miami and just renovate the hell out of the stadium.
I was recently in Nissan stadium and it is in desperate need of replacement. They tried to go the renovation route, but it just needs too much work. What was initially a $600M price tag is now $1B, so you might as well start anew. The state of Tennessee has now stepped in to contribute $500M to the cost of building a new stadium. As the survey below states, the Jags stadium is structurally sound and to me it is in much better condition than Nissan stadium. We will be able to do a Miami style renovation, but the Titans don't have that option.
How did Nissan Stadium fall into such disrepair? It's 4 years newer than the Bank?
Seems like it was built on the cheap, relatively speaking. Concrete frame is crumbling and needs to be replaced by steel. All of the major systems need replacements. All the needs need to be replaced. So much is broken that the general feeling is that it's not responsible to pour $1 billion+ into rehab when they could build anew for the future, particularly for a tourist trap like Nashville that wants to be in the regular Super Bowl rotation.
Someone I trust is convinced that the Jags are ultimately going to come to the same conclusion. I don't necessarily buy it, but it is interesting to see Tennessee and Buffalo both going the new stadium route.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 30, 2022, 12:26:41 PM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 29, 2022, 05:34:20 PM
I work in marketing, so I know how percentages are often used to obfuscate the true costs. Comparing dollars to dollars, the numbers don't look as good as what the politicians and NFL are selling. The Bills' stadium was built for the equivalent of $141 million in today's dollars. That means the Buffalo taxpayers are investing more than 6 times as much as they did to originally build the stadium.
In Jax's case, the Jags stadium was constructed for the equivalent of $225 million in today's dollars. In 2013, the city contributed the equivalent of $76 million in today's dollars for the scoreboards and pools. Then we had the renovation in 2016 for $106 million in today's dollars. That's about $407 million for roughly the Jaguars first decade of existence.
Looking at the next decade or so, we've got the $60 million public investment. Then let's say the Jags evenly split a $1 billion stadium project. That's maybe $560 million over the next decade and that's probably conservative. So let's say $56 million a year in public investment to keep the Jags to make it easier to comprehend.
Do we offset the $56 million price through taxes collected and direct economic impact to the community each year? Does the community benefit enough in other ways to justify the investment? Personally, I'm skeptical, but I'm open to hearing any figures that might change my mind.
As a fellow marketing/analytics guy who's somewhat close to the numbers through working with the city, I've got a slightly different take on it.
First, to clean up the timeline a little bit and go a little deeper into a few of the investments:
1992 - Before any serious talk of NFL expansion, the City of Jacksonville agreed to nearly $50 million in renovations to Jax Municipal Stadium to keep Georgia-Florida here through 2002.
1993 - In an effort to secure an NFL franchise, the city upped the stadium renovation to $121 million. So really, we can't really say that we spent $121 million to build a stadium for the Jags when we were already committed to a badly needed $50 million renovation already. True incremental number for the original stadium build from an NFL perspective is around $71 million.
That puts us at $71 million in stadium costs to get us through the first 10 years of the franchise's existence.
2004 - The city spends an additional $47 million to upgrade EverBank Field ahead of Super Bowl XXXIX. This is when the Bud Zone, escalators, and original video board were added. Yes, the Jags benefited from the stadium renovations, but the impetus for this spend was to make EverBank Field more attractive for events like Super Bowls and to keep Georgia and Florida happy. So I don't think it's fair to say that this investment was made to keep the Jags in Jacksonville either. Let's call it 50/50 and say $24 million went to the Jags.
So that's $95 million.
2013 - The city commits another $43 million to the scoreboard additions and endzone improvements.
2015 - The city tosses in another $45 million for Daily's Place, Flex Field, and club seat renovations. I won't deduct it, but do keep in mind that the city had been trying to build an amphitheater since the Delaney administration.
So, that's $183 million (non-adjusted for inflation and interest, which is admittedly significant) in "public" money toward keeping the NFL here over the last 26 seasons.
So that's roughly $7 million per year (plus debt service) that we've spent as a city on the stadium in support of the Jags up to this point.
Feels like a steal when you look at the broader NFL landscape and how much other cities are paying.
Especially when you consider how little of that has actually come out of the pockets of the actual Jacksonville's taxpayers.
All of the major improvements have been debt-financed off the back of our local bed tax, meaning that tourists bear a heavier burden for these stadium projects than locals do. 2% straight up goes toward paying off stadium debt, and another 2% was put toward maintenance of the sports complex after the Prime Osborne was paid off.
Additionally, we get $2 million from the state each year as a sale tax rebate for relief with stadium debt; $5 million+ a year from ticket surcharges and parking revenue; over $4 million a year from the Jags in rent; $1 million in concessions, etc.
Now, the stadium isn't entirely self-sustaining and the economics will never make compelling sense on a balance sheet, but - particularly since we upped the bed tax contribution to 4% - we're drawing very little from the general fund to pay for the stadium. More money has probably come out of the general fund to force Toney Sleiman out of the Landing than has come out to pay for the stadium over the last 8 or 9 years.
And, if we were to put $560 million into renovating the stadium, it won't be a $56 million annual public investment over 10 years, it will another long-term debt-financed project paid off primarily by revenue sources that can only be used for similar projects (the bed tax), and from revenue sources that wouldn't exist in the absence of the stadium (ticket surcharges, parking revenue, concessions, escalating rent payments from the Jags, etc.).
Will there still be a high taxpayer cost? Sure, but it's not going to cripple the city.
Realistically, the biggest short-term tradeoff is that a true convention center probably won't be coming any time soon.
Any maybe we'll have to wait on spending $1 billion+ to relocate the jail.
One other thing that's probably worth pointing out when talking about the stadium is that we're not just talking about renovations for the sake of keeping the Jags in Jacksonville for another 20-30 years (FWIW, I've heard the proposed lease extension is going to be closer to 20 years than 30 years). We're also talking about keeping Georgia-Florida long-term, competing for NCAA playoff games and major events, and keeping Jacksonville competitive and relevant in the event space over the coming decades. Less glamorous aspects of the stadium like the electrical and drainage systems are reaching end-of-life and will need to be renovated regardless of what happens with the Jags.
Jacksonville is growing, our bed taxes are only going to continue to increase, and I think it's a bit of a strawman argument when people argue that the full brunt of our stadium share is going to come at the expense of our schools, infrastructure, crime prevention, hospitals, etc.
Hate the NFL monopoly and how the league leaches off its host cities, and the Jags have ruined more Sundays for me than I can count over the last decade, but to me, financing a new stadium tied to a lease extension guaranteed to keep the NFL in Jacksonville through 2050+ is the biggest no brainer out there.
Ken, thanks for the info. However, knowing the shell games the City plays, I am not convinced this is the full story or that the published numbers match the actual numbers. I know the original stadium costs ran over budget so do your numbers reflect that?
Also, who pays the maintenance and operating expenses and utilities of the stadium? And the security and traffic control on game day? These are major amounts if the City is picking up much or all of that. Did you factor in the ongoing infrastructure expenses to support the stadium area such as improving the roads, drainage, utilities, signage, etc.?
And, who gets the revenue from non-Jags events such as the Monster Truck Jam, concerts, stadium club rentals, etc.?
I believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe. The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium. I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 05, 2022, 12:50:32 PMKen, thanks for the info. However, knowing the shell games the City plays, I am not convinced this is the full story or that the published numbers match the actual numbers.
Thanks buddy!
QuoteI know the original stadium costs ran over budget so do your numbers reflect that?
Original stadium had cost overruns of $20 million, which was paid back by the Jags via $1.5 million supplemental annual rent payments between 1993 and ~2008.
QuoteAlso, who pays the maintenance?
Maintenance typically comes out of the 2% of the bed tax set aside for the Sports Complex. Occasionally - like when VyStar Memorial Arena started shedding bricks - there might be a supplement hit to the general fund, but for the most part, it comes from the bed tax. For the new practice facility, the Jags will be responsible for 100% of maintenance, repair, and upkeep.
QuoteAlso, who pays the utilities of the stadium?
Utilities are paid for by the Jags. When the new scoreboards and banner boards were added, the utility fees were adjusted accordingly. As part of the agreement for that particular project, the utility bill is reviewed and adjusted annually.
QuoteAnd the security and traffic control on game day?
Security and traffic control costs are split between SMG (who manages the facility) and the Jacksonville Sheriff's office, with a portion of ticket/parking surcharges going to cover this. The latest estimates I've seen have total security costs for each Jags game coming in at around $60,000. It's not an insignificant amount, but security is always going to be an expense for the city. For context, we spend more on security for Florida/Georgia each year than we do for all 8 Jags home games combined. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent more taxpayer money sending police to Walmarts annually though (now there's a security scam) than we do for all stadium events combined.
QuoteWho pays the operating expenses?
Ushers, ticket takers, bartenders, servers, cashiers, security, merchandise staff, housekeeping and parking attendants are all on the Jags/SMG's (not city's) payroll. They typically have job fairs leading up to the season to hire ~1,000 part-time employees for the season.
QuoteDid you factor in the ongoing infrastructure expenses to support the stadium area such as improving the roads, drainage, utilities, signage, etc.?
Wouldn't this be a city expense in support of the 300+ events that take place each year at the sports complex, rather than an expense that wouldn't exist in the absence of the Jags?
QuoteAnd, who gets the revenue from non-Jags events such as the Monster Truck Jam, concerts, stadium club rentals, etc.?
With the exception of the concerts that the Jags/Bold Events co-produce (usually an annual concert - Lynyrd Skynyrd, Rolling Stones, Green Day), other stadium events are run by the city in conjunction with SMG, or through other partnerships (like Florida/Georgia and the Gator Bowl). Monster Jam revenues, for example, aren't going to the Jags.
QuoteI believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe. The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium. I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.
Agree and disagree! Though there are additional hidden costs associated with the city owning and operating a large stadium (such as the $1.6 million it costs each year to install temporary seating for Florida/Georgia), I don't think current day TIAA Bank Field has by any stretch of the imagination been a financial albatross for the city of Jacksonville.
That said, we are going to need to spend SIGNIFICANT money to keep the Jags here long-term. Might be $600 million. Could be $1 billion if they package in Lot J 2.0 (which I think we'll know more about no later than next year's State of the Franchise, but potentially much earlier) and costs keep rising like they are.
Bed tax alone ain't gonna cover all of that.
Quote from: Steve on April 05, 2022, 12:22:51 PM
How did Nissan Stadium fall into such disrepair? It's 4 years newer than the Bank?
Structural steel vs concrete? I'd have to look into it more, but it seemed much more dated than our facilities. It may not have had the interim updates to the club sections and other amenities that TIAA had.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 05, 2022, 03:33:19 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 05, 2022, 12:50:32 PMKen, thanks for the info. However, knowing the shell games the City plays, I am not convinced this is the full story or that the published numbers match the actual numbers.
Thanks buddy!
QuoteI know the original stadium costs ran over budget so do your numbers reflect that?
Original stadium had cost overruns of $20 million, which was paid back by the Jags via $1.5 million supplemental annual rent payments between 1993 and ~2008.
QuoteAlso, who pays the maintenance?
Maintenance typically comes out of the 2% of the bed tax set aside for the Sports Complex. Occasionally - like when VyStar Memorial Arena started shedding bricks - there might be a supplement hit to the general fund, but for the most part, it comes from the bed tax. For the new practice facility, the Jags will be responsible for 100% of maintenance, repair, and upkeep.
QuoteAlso, who pays the utilities of the stadium?
Utilities are paid for by the Jags. When the new scoreboards and banner boards were added, the utility fees were adjusted accordingly. As part of the agreement for that particular project, the utility bill is reviewed and adjusted annually.
QuoteAnd the security and traffic control on game day?
Security and traffic control costs are split between SMG (who manages the facility) and the Jacksonville Sheriff's office, with a portion of ticket/parking surcharges going to cover this. The latest estimates I've seen have total security costs for each Jags game coming in at around $60,000. It's not an insignificant amount, but security is always going to be an expense for the city. For context, we spend more on security for Florida/Georgia each year than we do for all 8 Jags home games combined. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent more taxpayer money sending police to Walmarts annually though (now there's a security scam) than we do for all stadium events combined.
QuoteWho pays the operating expenses?
Ushers, ticket takers, bartenders, servers, cashiers, security, merchandise staff, housekeeping and parking attendants are all on the Jags/SMG's (not city's) payroll. They typically have job fairs leading up to the season to hire ~1,000 part-time employees for the season.
QuoteDid you factor in the ongoing infrastructure expenses to support the stadium area such as improving the roads, drainage, utilities, signage, etc.?
Wouldn't this be a city expense in support of the 300+ events that take place each year at the sports complex, rather than an expense that wouldn't exist in the absence of the Jags?
QuoteAnd, who gets the revenue from non-Jags events such as the Monster Truck Jam, concerts, stadium club rentals, etc.?
With the exception of the concerts that the Jags/Bold Events co-produce (usually an annual concert - Lynyrd Skynyrd, Rolling Stones, Green Day), other stadium events are run by the city in conjunction with SMG, or through other partnerships (like Florida/Georgia and the Gator Bowl). Monster Jam revenues, for example, aren't going to the Jags.
QuoteI believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe. The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium. I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.
Agree and disagree! Though there are additional hidden costs associated with the city owning and operating a large stadium (such as the $1.6 million it costs each year to install temporary seating for Florida/Georgia), I don't think current day TIAA Bank Field has by any stretch of the imagination been a financial albatross for the city of Jacksonville.
That said, we are going to need to spend SIGNIFICANT money to keep the Jags here long-term. Might be $600 million. Could be $1 billion if they package in Lot J 2.0 (which I think we'll know more about no later than next year's State of the Franchise, but potentially much earlier) and costs keep rising like they are.
Bed tax alone ain't gonna cover all of that.
Ken, thanks for the detailed reply. Sorry to be the ultimate cynic, but, as a lifelong resident, I know there is always much more hidden well below the surface of Jax "icebergs" that we taxpayers don't really get to understand or see. Also, Kahn is a "take no prisoners" businessman and supplies big campaign contributions to our local politicos, starting with the Mayor, so he surely has expectations for big paybacks from the City treasury.
I note your last entry appears to be in 2015. What about adding in the practice facility of late?
One other thought: We need to add all the "extras" that Kahn is asking for with the Hart Bridge ramp removal, Lot J or its future incarnations, the Shipyards/Four Seasons, etc. These extras, totaling hundreds of millions in additional taxpayer dollars are all supposedly provided to keep the Jags in town too. In my mind, it is all part of the "package" and should be accounted for accordingly.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 05, 2022, 06:07:36 PM
One other thought: We need to add all the "extras" that Kahn is asking for with the Hart Bridge ramp removal, Lot J or its future incarnations, the Shipyards/Four Seasons, etc. These extras, totaling hundreds of millions in additional taxpayer dollars are all supposedly provided to keep the Jags in town too. In my mind, it is all part of the "package" and should be accounted for accordingly.
The city makes 100% of its money back on the Four Seasons incentives and that was something hashed out between the DIA and the Jaguars. The bulk of the incentives for the development come in the form of a REV grant on land that was previously contributing zero dollars to the city tax rolls. Shad will get a reduced property tax bill for the first 20 years of the project, but after that he will be paying millions per year in property taxes. Even before the REV grant ends he will be paying millions in taxes annually. Add to that the bed tax money, sales tax, the $4M contribution to Met Park and the work done to renovate the marina at Met Park and you can see the city is getting a lot for their contribution. The city is including as part of the incentives both the parkland that he is actually building on as well as the new park space where the Orleck and the Firehouse will be. If you compare this to the deal at One Riverside, Shad is not getting as favorable of terms as other developers in this city.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 05, 2022, 12:50:32 PM
I believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe. The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium. I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.
Have you tried to attend an NFL game in one of the larger market cities? The ticket prices are much higher just to get in the door and the ceiling for various ticket packages is through the roof. The Jaguars can only charge so much before they price themselves out of the market, so in general their total ticket revenue is lower. While the cities like Nashville, Buffalo, and Las Vegas make the news for their incentive packages, larger market teams often get zero or minimal government incentives for remodels. Miami got nothing for its $500M remodel, Sofi and Levi's stadium got no help from the state and minimal city support considering the project budgets. The larger market teams generate enough revenue from operations that they don't need help and the city and state governments notice that. For TIAA Bank Field to be a part of the community, they need to keep prices low enough that the community can afford it. For that reason their revenue does not support the capital requirements of a significant remodel. The business has to stand on its own no matter who owns it, so incentives are required to keep it viable.
Jacksonville is the only city with an NFL team and no other "big 5" pro teams (nba, nhl, mlb, mls). To go a bit further there's not a D1 college football team in the city either. Unless major changes to density and clustering happen, Jacksonville will forever be at the bottom of the list for sports towns. There's just no reason for fans from other teams to come here unless they're purely looking for cheap tickets and almost guaranteed win. We have ok beaches and ok golf courses, but there's nothing world class or unique to attract tourists outside of our stadium. There's nothing to encourage people to stay here other than the fact it's "cheap". The one saving grace for the Jags is they have literally 0 competition. In any other city they would've moved a long time ago.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 06, 2022, 10:41:26 AM
Jacksonville is the only city with an NFL team and no other "big 5" pro teams (nba, nhl, mlb, mls). To go a bit further there's not a D1 college football team in the city either. Unless major changes to density and clustering happen, Jacksonville will forever be at the bottom of the list for sports towns. There's just no reason for fans from other teams to come here unless they're purely looking for cheap tickets and almost guaranteed win. We have ok beaches and ok golf courses, but there's nothing world class or unique to attract tourists outside of our stadium. There's nothing to encourage people to stay here other than the fact it's "cheap". The one saving grace for the Jags is they have literally 0 competition. In any other city they would've moved a long time ago.
Agreed. It will never improve until we elect a mayor and council that thinks a lot differently than the current crowd. I am embarrassed at the level of culture here in my hometown. Things have got to change.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 06, 2022, 10:03:15 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 05, 2022, 06:07:36 PM
One other thought: We need to add all the "extras" that Kahn is asking for with the Hart Bridge ramp removal, Lot J or its future incarnations, the Shipyards/Four Seasons, etc. These extras, totaling hundreds of millions in additional taxpayer dollars are all supposedly provided to keep the Jags in town too. In my mind, it is all part of the "package" and should be accounted for accordingly.
The city makes 100% of its money back on the Four Seasons incentives and that was something hashed out between the DIA and the Jaguars. The bulk of the incentives for the development come in the form of a REV grant on land that was previously contributing zero dollars to the city tax rolls. Shad will get a reduced property tax bill for the first 20 years of the project, but after that he will be paying millions per year in property taxes. Even before the REV grant ends he will be paying millions in taxes annually. Add to that the bed tax money, sales tax, the $4M contribution to Met Park and the work done to renovate the marina at Met Park and you can see the city is getting a lot for their contribution. The city is including as part of the incentives both the parkland that he is actually building on as well as the new park space where the Orleck and the Firehouse will be. If you compare this to the deal at One Riverside, Shad is not getting as favorable of terms as other developers in this city.
Captain, points noted. However, underlying your assumption, right off the bat, is that the Four Seasons is immensely successful. We heard the same story when they City bent over to get the Adams Mark, now Hyatt, that it "had to have" to bid for a Super Bowl. That hotel has gone bankrupt at least twice by my count. I also believe you are potentially way overstating the tax revenues the hotel will generate. Additionally, I note that it is in a Federal Opportunity Zone enabling Kahn to potentially pay zero Federal income tax on a sale of the hotel in future years and, until then, to defer capital gains taxes for a decade or so.
To my point, based on the info in the below article, Kahn will be paying only $795,000/year in property taxes for 20 years. That is hardly the "millions" you appear to be counting on and, when adjusted for present value, is further greatly reduced.
QuoteThe city also would rebate 75 percent of city property taxes generated by the value of the new development for a 20-year period. That would be an incentive worth up to $47.7 million.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/10/10/four-seasons-hotels-nashville-and-jacksonville-show-downtown-contrast/6042894001/
As to any bed taxes, it has already been noted here those will likely benefit back to Kahn to help pay for his stadium upgrade. That isn't a return to the rank and file citizens of Jax who are fronting his incentives from the general fund. If correct, this would be an example of the shell game played on these deals since the general fund will ultimately be funding the stadium.
All in all, there is a good bit of risk to the payback and it may take far longer (decades!) to pay back the City's $114 million (in today's dollars and if that ends up being the real number) if it ever comes. Adjusted for inflation, we may never see it all back.
Keep in mind my underlying cynicism is based on the City's track record as a terrible negotiator, rigging presentations to get what the Mayor wants, not being business savvy, not doing well running numbers (see Lot J)and Kahn having the Mayor in his pocket. On the other hand, Kahn didn't get rich being outmaneuvered on business deals. If I am a betting person, I give the win over the taxpayers to him, hands down.
Green Bay has another Major League team?? @jaxjaguar
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 06, 2022, 10:12:06 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 05, 2022, 12:50:32 PM
I believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe. The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium. I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.
Have you tried to attend an NFL game in one of the larger market cities? The ticket prices are much higher just to get in the door and the ceiling for various ticket packages is through the roof. The Jaguars can only charge so much before they price themselves out of the market, so in general their total ticket revenue is lower. While the cities like Nashville, Buffalo, and Las Vegas make the news for their incentive packages, larger market teams often get zero or minimal government incentives for remodels. Miami got nothing for its $500M remodel, Sofi and Levi's stadium got no help from the state and minimal city support considering the project budgets. The larger market teams generate enough revenue from operations that they don't need help and the city and state governments notice that. For TIAA Bank Field to be a part of the community, they need to keep prices low enough that the community can afford it. For that reason their revenue does not support the capital requirements of a significant remodel. The business has to stand on its own no matter who owns it, so incentives are required to keep it viable.
According to the below article, every NFL city's stadium except Charlotte and Miami has received taxpayer subsidies. In LA, it appears the developer received $100 million in tax breaks. I believe all these markets are larger than Jax other than Green Bay. So, getting more ticket revenue doesn't seem to cure the issue.
QuoteStadium and rent details for all 32 NFL teams
https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/raiders-nfl/stadium-and-rent-details-for-all-32-nfl-teams/
That said, my point all along is we taxpayers are paying more for the stadium than we are being led to believe. You are helping to support that theory by saying our low ticket prices demand big subsidies, even bigger than most other cities. Thus, I don't see a disagreement here with my proposition that numbers may be bigger than they first appear.
Buffalo just got 600 mil from the State of New York...
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/04/10/bills-officially-get-600-million-from-new-york-for-new-stadium/
Have been driving by the new Sports Performance Center every morning on my way into the office.
It's coming together nicely, but it certainly doesn't seem like particularly complex construction.
Anyone else think it doesn't really pass the smell test that this thing really costs $120 million to construct? For context, that's nearly as much as FIS's new riverfront tower, including the parking garage.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/351882_standard.jpeg)
Reminds me of the $450 million price tag on the Lot J mini mall, including a quoted price of $125 million on a 115-room boutique hotel.
Curious if anyone knows:
Do the Jags RFP aspects of these projects, or hand select their partners absent a competitive bid?
We know from the Lot J negotiations that Cordish, at least, wasn't willing to share their pro forma.
With price tags coming in so inflated for some of these Jags projects (and other public/private developments from other NFL owners), the conspiratorial side of me can't help but wonder if the city's $60 million contribution to a $120 million project might actually be a $60 million contribution to a $90 million project, creatively positioned as a $120 million project in collaboration with the handful of partners that seem to work with NFL owners on these things.
Massive ask coming for the stadium, I hope we due some due diligence and make sure we're not paying half or more on an artificially inflated price tag.
That was some Fox News-esque conspiracy theory proposed as possible fact.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 16, 2022, 11:12:05 AM
That was some Fox News-esque conspiracy theory proposed as possible fact.
Shit, meant to use my Tucker_FSU handle ;D
But seriously, a barn and a couple of football fields cost more than twice the Regional Transportation center ($56 million)? $50 million more than the BOFA tower recently sold for ($75 million)? Two and a half times the Margaritaville Hotel at Jax Beach ($50 million)? $30 million more than Related's upcoming 335-unit, 535-space garage development on the Southbank? 6 times more than the average high school costs to build ($20 million)? $35 million more than estimates to relocate and build the new MOSH? 6 times more than the Armada's estimate for a new Eastside stadium/office complex? Roughly twice as much as the combined budgets to build or restore parks at the Landing, Shipyards, Friendship Park, and Times-Union Center?
This project costs $70 million more than a new 25-story luxury high rise under construction in Tampa (the Nolen).
(https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/gmg/5KNA7HQMHBD2NN6PSQLJMUXMVE.jpg)
(https://media.firstcoastnews.com/assets/WTLV/images/cd198ad7-1c8d-4fd3-a9a6-9cab7ef83dd4/cd198ad7-1c8d-4fd3-a9a6-9cab7ef83dd4_1140x641.png)
For $20 million cheaper than the sports facility, St. Louis is building a 25-story mixed use development inclusive of a hotel, condos, event space, rooftop bars, street-level retail, and a 400-space garage. For $100 million, Atlanta is building an even larger mixed-use 260,000 square foot development with office, medical, retail, hotel, restaurant, parking, etc.
Construction cam is here, you can judge for yourself, maybe I'm crazy, but $120 million is a boatload of money, even with inflated construction costs.
https://app.truelook.cloud/dashboard/716/1189/live?code=ethylubkpwjdwi0gvaaelh8ga
Personally, I've been a little skeptical since the Jags estimated that the below 115-unit boutique hotel would cost $125 million to construct during the Lot J negotiations.
(https://snipboard.io/6mF45O.jpg)
https://www.espn.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/32826/inside-the-miami-dolphins-135m-practice-facility-players-lounge-palm-trees-and-a-slide
This is almost identical to the Dolphins facility. They were able to buy out their materials during covid when everything was at a steep discount. The Jaguars are buying out steel and concrete at the absolute highest prices in history and are still coming in under the Dolphins' budget.
I was just reading about the Panthers training facility that has just "died" ($800M). I'll take what we've got.
https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/College-footballs-25-best-facilities-in-2022-ranked-182436036/#182436036_2
(https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/College-footballs-25-best-facilities-in-2022-ranked-182436036/#182436036_2)
College football performance facilities are in the same range for new construction. Our very own FSU is estimating a $75M price tag for its new football-only facility. Michigan spent $168M!
I NEVER bought the Lot J numbers from the break. They were clearly inflated, and not by a little either. Comparing other NFL facilities to this project is not legit either if there is an 'understanding' within the NFL to inflate numbers across the board for their collective benefit. I think that is what Ken is referring to. Most if not all of the projects Ken mentioned probably had land acquisition costs as well, which this project does not have.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 16, 2022, 12:06:49 PM
But seriously, a barn and a couple of football fields cost more than twice the Regional Transportation center ($56 million)? $50 million more than the BOFA tower recently sold for ($75 million)? Two and a half times the Margaritaville Hotel at Jax Beach ($50 million)? $30 million more than Related's upcoming 335-unit, 535-space garage development on the Southbank? 6 times more than the average high school costs to build ($20 million)? $35 million more than estimates to relocate and build the new MOSH? 6 times more than the Armada's estimate for a new Eastside stadium/office complex? Roughly twice as much as the combined budgets to build or restore parks at the Landing, Shipyards, Friendship Park, and Times-Union Center?
I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but it's worth noting a lot of the previous price tags you've mentioned here. The JRTC went through some serious cost cutting in the planning process and the price doesn't include the additional millions that will eventually be needed for the Skyway conversion they want and the addition of actual rail service at some point. The BofA tower cost close to double the recent sale price to construct ($60 million (https://www.jacksonville.com/picture-gallery/news/history/2021/12/07/vintage-photos-construction-jacksonvilles-barnett-tower/8498649002/) in 1989), and local high schools before the recent inflation cost around 4 times (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/education/2010/08/04/first-new-duval-high-school-20-years-opens-raves/15936088007/) your estimate. As jaxoNOLE notes, college facilities cost pretty close to the same amount. UF just opened their new practice facility for $90 million, and it's not at all out there that an NFL facility costs a bit more.
But yes, the Lot J numbers were obviously absolute BS, which it why it's dead (at least for now).
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 16, 2022, 02:19:26 PM
UF just opened their new practice facility for $90 million, and it's not at all out there that an NFL facility costs a bit more.
This is also just the training facility. The indoor practice field was constructed in 2015 for $17M. So add in two outdoor fields, a grand stand with retail below, and the other components and $120M is a good comp.
Quote from: blizz01 on September 16, 2022, 01:30:08 PM
I was just reading about the Panthers training facility that has just "died" ($800M). I'll take what we've got.
I believe that $800mm was for not just the team facilities but the infrastructure, multiple office buildings, retail centers, etc.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 16, 2022, 12:44:11 PM
https://www.espn.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/32826/inside-the-miami-dolphins-135m-practice-facility-players-lounge-palm-trees-and-a-slide
This is almost identical to the Dolphins facility. They were able to buy out their materials during covid when everything was at a steep discount. The Jaguars are buying out steel and concrete at the absolute highest prices in history and are still coming in under the Dolphins' budget.
The Jags actually contracted the exact same designer - Rossetti out of Detroit, who does a lot of these facilities - and used a very similar site plan.
To be clear, the Fox News conspiracy isn't that Shad Khan is acting in a vacuum to bilk the Jax taxpayers into thinking they're paying half for developments, but actually paying more than half.
The Fox News conspiracy is that, on the surface, it appears that a lot of these new NFL developments popping up seem to have price tags significantly higher than non-NFL developments (e.g. Jags and Dolphins pump $120 to $130 million into sports performance centers; UF and FSU pump $75 to $85 million into facilities that don't appear on the surface to be 50% to 60% fancier/bigger/more outwardly expensive. And they all seem to use the same handful of speciality firms to design and price them.
Just a fun conspiracy, I could be totally wrong, that's why I'm asking about whether elements of the job are RFP'd, how costs are disclosed back to the city, or if we just take the Jags word that a $120 million facility costs $120 million, a $450 million mini-mail truly costs half a billion dollars, and a $1 billion stadium project truly costs $1 billion.
Weirdest moment of the entire Lot J ordeal was when the Jags and Cordish flat-out told the City Council that detailed project costs were proprietary and that they refused to share them with the public.
Keep in mind also that the $120,000,000 price tag came down before construction material cost exploded.
It's a good project, I'm all for the Jags staying here long-term, we haven't had to dole out nearly as much in public money as most other cities over the last 30 years, just genuinely curious where that $120 million is going specifically, and how those costs are shared with the city.
Any proposition requesting incentives or taxpayer contributions should have to be totally transparent and demonstrate how the costs presented were determined, ideally, via a competitive bidding process or by comparison to comparable good projects. An accounting at the end of the project to verify the final costs would also be a good idea so an adjustment can be made for overestimates. Not worried about underestimates - developers would never do that :).
Just taking a developer's word for it is absurd and bad business. Of course, no one is worse at being business-like and following best practices and processes than the City of Jacksonville. The City has squandered billions over the decades on poorly constructed "deals." And, it continues to this day. In the private sector, our leaders wouldn't last a year in their jobs. Maybe that's why they are elected officials and/or city/agency leaders.
Why are city leaders always getting the short end of the negotiation stick when they typically tout their "business experience" and they will "run the city like a business"?
Opened in 2016, the Vikings facility needs another $280 mill in the next decade for maintenance.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/04/02/vikings-stadium-needs-280-million-in-maintenance-over-the-next-decade/
Lessons to learn from, for Jax.
Quote from: fsu813 on April 02, 2023, 11:53:51 AM
Opened in 2016, the Vikings facility needs another $280 mill in the next decade for maintenance.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/04/02/vikings-stadium-needs-280-million-in-maintenance-over-the-next-decade/
Lessons to learn from, for Jax.
I have to imagine these figures include a lot of want-to haves, not just the need-to-haves.
Another thing to keep in mind - this is the stadium, not the Vikings team/practice facility. While the Vikings are the primary tenant, they aren't the only users - examples are the University of Minnesota baseball team, who plays the first half of their schedule their. Turns out Minneapolis in February and March is brisk.
Quote from: Steve on April 04, 2023, 10:46:20 AM
Another thing to keep in mind - this is the stadium, not the Vikings team/practice facility. While the Vikings are the primary tenant, they aren't the only users - examples are the University of Minnesota baseball team, who plays the first half of their schedule their. Turns out Minneapolis in February and March is brisk.
Yes. I was in downtown Minneapolis in summer 2018 and the X Games were there. They also host a ton of concerts and trade shows.
Interesting quote from Mark Lamping this week.
Seems to imply Lot J 2.0 may be bundled into the stadium deal.
With plans in place for TIAA Bank Field to undergo renovations in the near future, Jacksonville Jaguars president Mark Lamping said Wednesday that the organization is committed to remaining in Jacksonville for years to come.
According to Jeff Howe of The Athletic, Lamping said:
"Now it's time to see if other stakeholders in this community share or embrace the vision of the Jaguars and what we're trying to do, not only with the stadium but with the neighborhood around the stadium. The Jaguars have been here for a long time. It's certainly our intention to be here a long time."
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 26, 2023, 07:33:44 PM
Interesting quote from Mark Lamping this week.
Seems to imply Lot J 2.0 may be bundled into the stadium deal.
With plans in place for TIAA Bank Field to undergo renovations in the near future, Jacksonville Jaguars president Mark Lamping said Wednesday that the organization is committed to remaining in Jacksonville for years to come.
According to Jeff Howe of The Athletic, Lamping said:
"Now it's time to see if other stakeholders in this community share or embrace the vision of the Jaguars and what we're trying to do, not only with the stadium but with the neighborhood around the stadium. The Jaguars have been here for a long time. It's certainly our intention to be here a long time."
Very logical. Better 1 gigantic ask than 2 in close succession. Wouldn't surprise me if additional funding for the high-profile riverfront parks or Eastside neighborhood was also bundled as part of it.
There seems to be a trend for stadiums to now be integrated into surrounding development. I am guessing that Kahn has such plans since he is actually surrounding, or attempting to surround, the stadium with his projects including the Four Seasons, an office building, Lot J, the new team facility and the Fairgrounds.
As such, when the City negotiates a new stadium deal with him, the City needs to take into account the value-add for Kahn of the new stadium to his surrounding real estate plays and demand Kahn put up a larger portion than if the stadium stood alone. The taxpayers should not doubly subsidize him via both the stadium and his surrounding developments (assuming Kahn continues to ask for incentives for those too).
Quote from: fsu813 on May 26, 2023, 09:07:30 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 26, 2023, 07:33:44 PM
Interesting quote from Mark Lamping this week.
Seems to imply Lot J 2.0 may be bundled into the stadium deal.
With plans in place for TIAA Bank Field to undergo renovations in the near future, Jacksonville Jaguars president Mark Lamping said Wednesday that the organization is committed to remaining in Jacksonville for years to come.
According to Jeff Howe of The Athletic, Lamping said:
"Now it's time to see if other stakeholders in this community share or embrace the vision of the Jaguars and what we're trying to do, not only with the stadium but with the neighborhood around the stadium. The Jaguars have been here for a long time. It's certainly our intention to be here a long time."
Very logical. Better 1 gigantic ask than 2 in close succession. Wouldn't surprise me if additional funding for the high-profile riverfront parks or Eastside neighborhood was also bundled as part of it.
Totally agree.
Jags and Cordish shot themselves in the foot with how they handled Lot J the first time, but I still think the project itself would have been great for the area.
Hoping it comes back in some form as part of the stadium deal.