I think years ago there was a thread on this but it's hard to find with no search options for the threads that I can find. So starting a new one 8).
At one time, there were plans to lay track to JIA (for freight/passengers?). Haven't heard anything in a long time. Anyone have updates on that project, if it still exists. Is right of way at least secured?
Started thinking again about this after the discussion of Brightline going to Orlando's airport.
Never heard of this before.
Brightline will almost certainly just use the Jacksonville Terminal downtown whenever they get around to coming up here. The FEC line ends right there, plenty of land for TOD. There's no telling yet what their plans are once the FEC line and line to Tampa are complete. They picked Orlando's airport at least in part because the airport planned to build a train station before Brightline even came into existence (as All Aboard Florida). Plus how direct it is to access.
I'd certainly like to see what ROW would be found for such a route at this point, and especially how it would be able to reach existing lines. According to the old commuter rail study (https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/23708131/first-coast-commuter-rail-feasibility-study-jacksonville-), the existing CSX line towards Yulee could have had an extension spur to the airport north of Owen Road. Even if you do that, JIA would probably need to buy a people mover system (could they buy up the Skyway? ;D) because odds are the train wouldn't make it all the way to the terminal itself. Not to mention that the S-Line would likely need to be rebuilt to connect to that CSX line. The only alternative is going off the other CSX line (former A-line), and that requires new track from there all the way to the airport.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 14, 2021, 04:01:39 PM
I think years ago there was a thread on this but it's hard to find with no search options for the threads that I can find. So starting a new one 8).
At one time, there were plans to lay track to JIA (for freight/passengers?). Haven't heard anything in a long time. Anyone have updates on that project, if it still exist. Is right of way at least secured?
Started thinking again about this after the discussion of Brightline going to Orlando's airport.
Years ago when commuter rail was being considered there was talk of the north corridor tying into the airport. That talk died well before Nat Ford showed up on the scene.
The North Florida TPO finished a study back in 2105 looking at building a freight line connecting the CSX tracks from Dames Point / Blount Island to the CSX and NS yards off Kings Road. Unfortunately, the NFTPO website only lists studies in the last 3 years, you have to contact the staff to see an older study, like this one (unless The Lakelander has a copy?). As I recall, there were 3 finalist routes, going both north and south of JIA. According to this Times-Union article from 2015
Quote
The North Florida TPO has been studying different alignments over the past four years and has narrowed the options to three potential options. The report estimates the cost of construction and land acquisition would range from $189 million to $217 million, depending on the routes.
Sheffield said the study sought to "play it safe" in coming up with financial estimates, so those figures probably are higher than what it would actually cost. He said the next step will be to seek a federal agency to take over the study.
The new rail line would have overpasses at Interstate 95, the North Access Road planned for Jacksonville International Airport, Lem Turner Road and U.S. 1, which also is known as New Kings Road.
The Transportation Planning Organization's study, which was done by Jacksonville-based RS&H, does not rank the three alternatives, leaving that choice open for the next stage of the study by a federal agencies. Sheffield said it appears federal studies usually take two years, though the work done by local study could shave off some time.
As far as I know, nothing further has been done since this study concluded. Maybe some of our more connected members can shed some light (lakelander? tufsu?).
https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20151208/NEWS/801258655
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 14, 2021, 05:18:27 PM
The North Florida TPO finished a study back in 2105 looking at building a freight line connecting the CSX tracks from Dames Point / Blount Island to the CSX and NS yards off Kings Road. Unfortunately, the NFTPO website only lists studies in the last 3 years, you have to contact the staff to see an older study, like this one (unless The Lakelander has a copy?). As I recall, there were 3 finalist routes, going both north and south of JIA. According to this Times-Union article from 2015
Quote
The North Florida TPO has been studying different alignments over the past four years and has narrowed the options to three potential options. The report estimates the cost of construction and land acquisition would range from $189 million to $217 million, depending on the routes.
Sheffield said the study sought to "play it safe" in coming up with financial estimates, so those figures probably are higher than what it would actually cost. He said the next step will be to seek a federal agency to take over the study.
The new rail line would have overpasses at Interstate 95, the North Access Road planned for Jacksonville International Airport, Lem Turner Road and U.S. 1, which also is known as New Kings Road.
The Transportation Planning Organization's study, which was done by Jacksonville-based RS&H, does not rank the three alternatives, leaving that choice open for the next stage of the study by a federal agencies. Sheffield said it appears federal studies usually take two years, though the work done by local study could shave off some time.
As far as I know, nothing further has been done since this study concluded. Maybe some of our more connected members can shed some light (lakelander? tufsu?).
https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20151208/NEWS/801258655
Found a summary of it! Scroll down to the 5th slide at the link below for a graphic presentation (dated June, 2013) of the 10 to 12 variations built around 3 different feeds from the east and west to JIA.
While motivated by freight, there is no reason passenger/commuter traffic couldn't utilize these routes (assuming the land is still available) as implied in one of the bullet points. As all cross JIA property, adding a spur to the terminal wouldn't appear to be much of a reach.
One would hope JTA/JIA/JPA would pick a route and secure the right of way for future construction. More and more airports are connected by rail to city centers. Our day will come :). With "Amtrak Joe" as president, rail will be movin' on up!
https://www.mpoac.org/download/freight_committee/Presentation-MPOAC-FreightCommittee-NorthFloridaTPO.pdf (https://www.mpoac.org/download/freight_committee/Presentation-MPOAC-FreightCommittee-NorthFloridaTPO.pdf)
From the slide deck (emphasis added):QuoteNorth Area/JIA Corridor: Future Rail Feasibility Study
Follow-up of a previous planning study to evaluate the feasibility of constructing a 11+ mile rail line connecting the CSX Kingsland Subdivision Rail line serving JAXPORT and the Port of Fernandina, with the CSX Mainline
•Study corridor is approx. 3 miles wide and encompasses lands north and south of Jacksonville International Airport
•New rail corridor will service JAXPORT's Blount Island and Dames Point Marine Terminals, liquid bulk fuel operations in the same vicinity and the Port of Fernandina
•The existing rail line has 44+ grade crossings, traverses urbanized areas, and is limited to slow speeds due to geometric challenges
•The new rail line will provide direct connection to the planned (2015) Intermodal Container Transfer Facility (ICTF) to be located adjacent to the Dames Point Marine Terminal.
•The economic development opportunities associated with the new rail line include traversing several large tracts of industrial entitled land holdings as well as potential direct connections to JIA facilities.
•10-12 alignment alternatives have been developed to date, and we are in the process of meeting with the larger property owners, including JIA to discuss concerns and make modifications.
•We plan to carry 2 alignments forward for more detailed evaluation.
[Maybe someone more proficient than I am can lift the graphic slide and post it to this thread.]
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 14, 2021, 06:37:21 PM
[Maybe someone more proficient than I am can lift the graphic slide and post it to this thread.]
As you wish:
(https://i.imgur.com/DAGOU7k.png)
^ Thanks Marcus. As always, a picture is worth a thousand words 8).
Now, we just need people to move forward with this project. As noted in the slides, there are many benefits. The newspaper article said this could be done for a ballpark of $200 million. This would be a lot better use of those dollars than Lot J. If only....
No problem!
Presumably, if the ultimate goal was to enable passenger rail access, the line would need to follow S2 and S1 or M5, with an additional spur that gets as close as possible to the terminal before a people mover or something has to take over.
Which brings us to the problem. $200 million just builds the line for freight, assuming that there aren't any unexpected cost increases or complications. It doesn't include the cost of the additional spur to the airport itself, the rail terminal (+ either very long walkway to the airport or people mover), the potential cost of double-tracking part of the line (so there's room for both passenger/commuter trains and freight). There has to actually be a commuter rail service linking the airport and anywhere else.
This isn't to say that we shouldn't build the line period. But even if shovels were in the ground tomorrow we'd be a long way from making it possible for people to travel from the airport anywhere without a car or perhaps bus.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 14, 2021, 07:35:37 PM
No problem!
Presumably, if the ultimate goal was to enable passenger rail access, the line would need to follow S2 and S1 or M5, with an additional spur that gets as close as possible to the terminal before a people mover or something has to take over.
Which brings us to the problem. $200 million just builds the line for freight, assuming that there aren't any unexpected cost increases or complications. It doesn't include the cost of the additional spur to the airport itself, the rail terminal (+ either very long walkway to the airport or people mover), the potential cost of double-tracking part of the line (so there's room for both passenger/commuter trains and freight). There has to actually be a commuter rail service linking the airport and anywhere else.
This isn't to say that we shouldn't build the line period. But even if shovels were in the ground tomorrow we'd be a long way from making it possible for people to travel from the airport anywhere without a car or perhaps bus.
If the line were built for freight, it would at least preserve the possibility of adding a passenger component later. The biggest issue is nothing happens now to reserve r-o-w and its impossible to feasibly do anything in the future. The Northside is going through a growth spurt and people aren't going to hold back development that would interfere with this concept if there aren't concrete plans or reservations.
I have said it before: Jacksonville leaders have no long term vision or plans. It's why we ping pong among poorly conceived developer proposals rather than take charge of making this the best city it can be with a bit more thoughtfulness and civic altruism.
That's fair.
So that brings us to the real question here: what happened? It's been five, coming on six years since the study reportedly finished, and approaching eight years since the concepts in that presentation. Is this sitting in a desk somewhere waiting for funding? What exactly can we do to advocate for progress in this arena, especially if that means lobbying for state or federal funding? There was talk in another thread about the need for some kind of "Citizens for Modern Transit" advocacy group in this region, should that be the way to pursue change? Should passionate people create some sort of "transit agenda" of projects to fight for?
I'd also note that the challenge with civic altruism is that it requires civic money. When City Council members are furious about the idea of a tiny millage increase to make sure garbage pickup works, the prospect of asking for big public infrastructure becomes a bit daunting. People love to yell about how we need to move the jail to make downtown worthwhile, but I don't know how many are aware of how that's a half-billion-dollar project.
If I were Mayor, I'd love to package a bunch of improvements like this (Northside infrastructure including these rails, Amtrak downtown, Hyatt exhibition hall, remediation, septic tanks, and so much more) into a single, say, one-cent sales tax and market the hell out of it to get it passed (investing together in the future, no more traffic, etc). But, you know... I'm not Mayor right now.
I can't imagine it would be cost effective, and anyway where would you get on? Who does this serve? Most people would have to get a ride to the train station, to take a ride to the airport.
Just doesn't make much sense or seem like a route that would actually be useful, or even come close to recouping the costs.
From a freight perspective, would it make more sense to connect Cecil to rail instead? That area is growing fast, too, but I imagine that a lot of the ROW from the outer beltway could be used. I'm not well versed in logistics or rail at all though, so I'm genuinely curious.
^Cecil already has abandoned railroad ROW. Right now, there's no reason to put rail on it. In the future, if a company built near Cecil that would need rail access, they could get it.
From my recollection, I think the JIA rail loop has been shelved because CSX was not interested in paying for it. The primary purpose was to expedite freight from JaxPort to the intermodal transfer centers on the westside - and would minimize freight trains through Springfield and other urban core neighborhoods.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 15, 2021, 09:46:42 AM
^Cecil already has abandoned railroad ROW. Right now, there's no reason to put rail on it. In the future, if a company built near Cecil that would need rail access, they could get it.
I have a vague recollection of discussion about reclaiming the rail spur into Cecil Commerce Center. The ROW passes under I-10 about a mile west of the First Coast Expressway (SR 23) interchange. There are also plans to create a bike trail (rail-trail) along the ROW. I don't know if there is room for both.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 15, 2021, 10:23:13 AM
From my recollection, I think the JIA rail loop has been shelved because CSX was not interested in paying for it. The primary purpose was to expedite freight from JaxPort to the intermodal transfer centers on the westside - and would minimize freight trains through Springfield and other urban core neighborhoods.
Thanks, tufsu1, I forgot what happened after that study. So, to those hoping the ROW will be preserved - very likely not going to happen. Perhaps with a potentially more rail-friendly administration in DC, there will be funding that would decrease the financial burden on any railroad company. Of course, if there's public money building it, the line should be available to all RRs.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 15, 2021, 09:46:42 AM
^Cecil already has abandoned railroad ROW. Right now, there's no reason to put rail on it. In the future, if a company built near Cecil that would need rail access, they could get it.
The City has always had big dreams about an auto or aircraft manufacturing plant at Cecil. Get that and that line will probably be back on the table faster than you can say "Lot J." :)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 15, 2021, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 15, 2021, 10:23:13 AM
From my recollection, I think the JIA rail loop has been shelved because CSX was not interested in paying for it. The primary purpose was to expedite freight from JaxPort to the intermodal transfer centers on the westside - and would minimize freight trains through Springfield and other urban core neighborhoods.
Thanks, tufsu1, I forgot what happened after that study. So, to those hoping the ROW will be preserved - very likely not going to happen. Perhaps with a potentially more rail-friendly administration in DC, there will be funding that would decrease the financial burden on any railroad company. Of course, if there's public money building it, the line should be available to all RRs.
There being a rail-friendly administration in DC doesn't mean anything if there isn't a rail-friendly administration here, though. They're not going to give us money if we don't ask for it. Of course, that isn't very helpful when our next chance to get rail-friendly leadership is in the second half of the Biden presidency, after a midterm that could go either way for Democrats.
A shame, too, because getting freight out of Springfield and the urban core means the opportunity to use those tracks for light rail instead.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 15, 2021, 11:42:13 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 15, 2021, 09:46:42 AM
^Cecil already has abandoned railroad ROW. Right now, there's no reason to put rail on it. In the future, if a company built near Cecil that would need rail access, they could get it.
The City has always had big dreams about an auto or aircraft manufacturing plant at Cecil. Get that and that line will probably be back on the table faster than you can say "Lot J." :)
Oof. For whatever reason none of the car manufacturers appear to have any interest in Florida. Even Tesla chose Texas instead. I don't know if Tallahassee just hasn't put in the effort to invite said companies or if we're not as good at it as the other states.
If anything, I'd think a rail equipment/rolling stock manufacturer would be a better bet than auto or aircraft. Miami managed to snag Hitachi Rail, who they chose for replacement MetroRail cars. Siemens is in California, Stadler in Utah, Talgo in Wisconsin. To dream big for a minute, we could probably just copy that strategy - convince a European rolling stock company to build a factory at Cecil in exchange for using that company's rolling stock in a passenger rail service, be it a streetcar replacement for the Skyway or a light/commuter rail. The biggest problem is that it would likely require support from Tallahassee, and I don't know if our legislative delegation has that kind of pull.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 16, 2021, 08:15:35 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 15, 2021, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 15, 2021, 10:23:13 AM
From my recollection, I think the JIA rail loop has been shelved because CSX was not interested in paying for it. The primary purpose was to expedite freight from JaxPort to the intermodal transfer centers on the westside - and would minimize freight trains through Springfield and other urban core neighborhoods.
Thanks, tufsu1, I forgot what happened after that study. So, to those hoping the ROW will be preserved - very likely not going to happen. Perhaps with a potentially more rail-friendly administration in DC, there will be funding that would decrease the financial burden on any railroad company. Of course, if there's public money building it, the line should be available to all RRs.
There being a rail-friendly administration in DC doesn't mean anything if there isn't a rail-friendly administration here, though. They're not going to give us money if we don't ask for it. Of course, that isn't very helpful when our next chance to get rail-friendly leadership is in the second half of the Biden presidency, after a midterm that could go either way for Democrats.
A shame, too, because getting freight out of Springfield and the urban core means the opportunity to use those tracks for light rail instead.
A big question that would need to be answered would be....why would CSX or any other railroad company want to build a rail line to bypass Springfield or move freight out of Jaxport quicker? They tend to have no problem paying for projects they deem as a priority. In this case, it seems like the biggest benefit of an airport line would be for the public locally. That means, it should bare the responsibility of paying to build it, if truly a priority.
QuoteQuote from: jaxlongtimer on January 15, 2021, 11:42:13 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 15, 2021, 09:46:42 AM
^Cecil already has abandoned railroad ROW. Right now, there's no reason to put rail on it. In the future, if a company built near Cecil that would need rail access, they could get it.
The City has always had big dreams about an auto or aircraft manufacturing plant at Cecil. Get that and that line will probably be back on the table faster than you can say "Lot J." :)
Oof. For whatever reason none of the car manufacturers appear to have any interest in Florida. Even Tesla chose Texas instead. I don't know if Tallahassee just hasn't put in the effort to invite said companies or if we're not as good at it as the other states.
If anything, I'd think a rail equipment/rolling stock manufacturer would be a better bet than auto or aircraft. Miami managed to snag Hitachi Rail, who they chose for replacement MetroRail cars. Siemens is in California, Stadler in Utah, Talgo in Wisconsin. To dream big for a minute, we could probably just copy that strategy - convince a European rolling stock company to build a factory at Cecil in exchange for using that company's rolling stock in a passenger rail service, be it a streetcar replacement for the Skyway or a light/commuter rail. The biggest problem is that it would likely require support from Tallahassee, and I don't know if our legislative delegation has that kind of pull.
Florida generally loses because it can't compete with the other Southern states for auto assembly plants from an incentives perspective. Jax has a number of rail facilities....primarily freight. A few include TTX near Honeymoon Yard, Fruit Growers Express near Moncrief Yard, and GBW Rail Car Services off the NS line in NW Jax. My guess would be if a new facility came in, they'd pick another site (closer to existing rail infrastructure) other than Cecil. For example, the TTX facility takes up a portion of Honeymoon Yard, since much of the track infrastructure was no longer needed after the train station closed. We have quite a few old yards like the Springfield, West Jax, Export Yard, etc. that would be suitable for a similar type of facility if the opportunity arose.
^ Probably our best shot at Cecil is with aircraft manufacturing, particularly for the military, or something space related. I thought some aircraft components/pre-assemblies were shipped by rail to Boeing's plant in Charleston but looking at Google maps and aerials, I don't see a rail siding to their plant although there is a rail line nearby. So, maybe rail isn't a need, after all, for that.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 16, 2021, 10:43:41 PM
^ Probably our best shot at Cecil is with aircraft manufacturing, particularly for the military, or something space related. I thought some aircraft components/pre-assemblies were shipped by rail to Boeing's plant in Charleston but looking at Google maps and aerials, I don't see a rail siding to their plant although there is a rail line nearby. So, maybe rail isn't a need, after all, for that.
They ship 737 fuselages from Wichita to Seattle by which is probably what you are thinking. I believe the Charleston plant is producing the 787.
Quote from: acme54321 on January 17, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 16, 2021, 10:43:41 PM
^ Probably our best shot at Cecil is with aircraft manufacturing, particularly for the military, or something space related. I thought some aircraft components/pre-assemblies were shipped by rail to Boeing's plant in Charleston but looking at Google maps and aerials, I don't see a rail siding to their plant although there is a rail line nearby. So, maybe rail isn't a need, after all, for that.
They ship 737 fuselages from Wichita to Seattle by which is probably what you are thinking. I believe the Charleston plant is producing the 787.
Yes, that's it. I just did a Google query and found out they fly the fuselages, etc. to the Charleston airport where the Boeing 787 plant is located:
https://simpleflying.com/boeing-787-10-charleston/ (https://simpleflying.com/boeing-787-10-charleston/)
QuoteFor reference, a Boeing 787 Dreamliner can take anywhere from 25-40 days to build, depending on the timing of part deliveries. Boeing sources parts in Italy, Japan, and in Charleston itself. To ensure that components can get to where they need to be, Boeing utilizes a fleet of Boeing Dreamlifter aircraft to move fuselages and other parts around (Boeing stations two of these cargo planes in South Carolina).
(https://simpleflying.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Boeing_747-400LCF_Dreamlifter-1000x533.jpg)
^ Speaking of Boeing, Atlas Air just ordered the last four 747's to ever be built with final delivery in 2022. These will all be cargo planes.
https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-plans-end-for-747-atlas-air-placing-final-order-2021-1 (https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-plans-end-for-747-atlas-air-placing-final-order-2021-1)
QuoteBoeing just announced the definitive end of the legendary 747 as cargo giant Atlas Air places an order for the final 4 planes
* Atlas Air on Tuesday announced a four-aircraft order for the Boeing 747-8F, the largest mass-produced freighter from the American aircraft manufacturer.
* Boeing said that these will be the last 747 ever built as the program comes to a close after a half-century.
* Demand for cargo planes has skyrocketed during the pandemic and the 747 provided the one thing most freighters could not with its nose loading door.
(https://i.insider.com/5ffdfc36f3df630018cc16df?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp)[/list]
Damn, the end of an era.
In terms of getting back on topic:
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2021, 10:04:11 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 16, 2021, 08:15:35 PM
There being a rail-friendly administration in DC doesn't mean anything if there isn't a rail-friendly administration here, though. They're not going to give us money if we don't ask for it. Of course, that isn't very helpful when our next chance to get rail-friendly leadership is in the second half of the Biden presidency, after a midterm that could go either way for Democrats.
A shame, too, because getting freight out of Springfield and the urban core means the opportunity to use those tracks for light rail instead.
A big question that would need to be answered would be....why would CSX or any other railroad company want to build a rail line to bypass Springfield or move freight out of Jaxport quicker? They tend to have no problem paying for projects they deem as a priority. In this case, it seems like the biggest benefit of an airport line would be for the public locally. That means, it should bare the responsibility of paying to build it, if truly a priority.
That's reasonable, I guess. Challenge becomes convincing all three levels of government that this is needed, somewhat soon, rather than another lane on I-95 or whatever. As beneficial as a passenger connection would be, that's probably longer down the road still, but at least getting the ROW and the freight out of downtown is a big benefit.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 19, 2021, 12:55:33 PM
Damn, the end of an era.
In terms of getting back on topic:
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2021, 10:04:11 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 16, 2021, 08:15:35 PM
There being a rail-friendly administration in DC doesn't mean anything if there isn't a rail-friendly administration here, though. They're not going to give us money if we don't ask for it. Of course, that isn't very helpful when our next chance to get rail-friendly leadership is in the second half of the Biden presidency, after a midterm that could go either way for Democrats.
A shame, too, because getting freight out of Springfield and the urban core means the opportunity to use those tracks for light rail instead.
A big question that would need to be answered would be....why would CSX or any other railroad company want to build a rail line to bypass Springfield or move freight out of Jaxport quicker? They tend to have no problem paying for projects they deem as a priority. In this case, it seems like the biggest benefit of an airport line would be for the public locally. That means, it should bare the responsibility of paying to build it, if truly a priority.
That's reasonable, I guess. Challenge becomes convincing all three levels of government that this is needed, somewhat soon, rather than another lane on I-95 or whatever. As beneficial as a passenger connection would be, that's probably longer down the road still, but at least getting the ROW and the freight out of downtown is a big benefit.
Is it really needed, somewhat soon? That is the real question. I think the overwhelming answer is going to be no due to the investment costs involved.
^It doesn't sound like it is. At least from the railroad's perspective.
The urgency is mostly about these earlier comments:
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 14, 2021, 07:42:23 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 14, 2021, 07:35:37 PM
No problem!
Presumably, if the ultimate goal was to enable passenger rail access, the line would need to follow S2 and S1 or M5, with an additional spur that gets as close as possible to the terminal before a people mover or something has to take over.
Which brings us to the problem. $200 million just builds the line for freight, assuming that there aren't any unexpected cost increases or complications. It doesn't include the cost of the additional spur to the airport itself, the rail terminal (+ either very long walkway to the airport or people mover), the potential cost of double-tracking part of the line (so there's room for both passenger/commuter trains and freight). There has to actually be a commuter rail service linking the airport and anywhere else.
This isn't to say that we shouldn't build the line period. But even if shovels were in the ground tomorrow we'd be a long way from making it possible for people to travel from the airport anywhere without a car or perhaps bus.
If the line were built for freight, it would at least preserve the possibility of adding a passenger component later. The biggest issue is nothing happens now to reserve r-o-w and its impossible to feasibly do anything in the future. The Northside is going through a growth spurt and people aren't going to hold back development that would interfere with this concept if there aren't concrete plans or reservations.
I have said it before: Jacksonville leaders have no long term vision or plans. It's why we ping pong among poorly conceived developer proposals rather than take charge of making this the best city it can be with a bit more thoughtfulness and civic altruism.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 14, 2021, 04:01:39 PM
I think years ago there was a thread on this but it's hard to find with no search options for the threads that I can find. So starting a new one 8).
At one time, there were plans to lay track to JIA (for freight/passengers?). Haven't heard anything in a long time. Anyone have updates on that project, if it still exists. Is right of way at least secured?
Started thinking again about this after the discussion of Brightline going to Orlando's airport.
The planes come and go from JAX, not JIA. I'd recomend we follow their lead.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2021, 10:04:11 PM
Oof. For whatever reason none of the car manufacturers appear to have any interest in Florida.
Incentives help very, very much alot. Nevertheless, the primary reason is location. The further you go into Florida, the further from suppliers an assembly plant is. If an auto plant were to ever be built in Florida, it would most likely be in the panhandle or JAX for those reasons.
If anything, I'd think a rail equipment/rolling stock manufacturer would be a better bet than auto or aircraft. Miami managed to snag Hitachi Rail, who they chose for replacement MetroRail cars. Siemens is in California, Stadler in Utah, Talgo in Wisconsin. To dream big for a minute, we could probably just copy that strategy - convince a European rolling stock company to build a factory at Cecil in exchange for using that company's rolling stock in a passenger rail service, be it a streetcar replacement for the Skyway or a light/commuter rail. The biggest problem is that it would likely require support from Tallahassee, and I don't know if our legislative delegation has that kind of pull.
[/quote]
Florida generally loses because it can't compete with the other Southern states for auto assembly plants from an incentives perspective. Jax has a number of rail facilities....primarily freight. A few include TTX near Honeymoon Yard, Fruit Growers Express near Moncrief Yard, and GBW Rail Car Services off the NS line in NW Jax. My guess would be if a new facility came in, they'd pick another site (closer to existing rail infrastructure) other than Cecil. For example, the TTX facility takes up a portion of Honeymoon Yard, since much of the track infrastructure was no longer needed after the train station closed. We have quite a few old yards like the Springfield, West Jax, Export Yard, etc. that would be suitable for a similar type of facility if the opportunity arose.
[/quote]
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 14, 2021, 07:42:23 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 14, 2021, 07:35:37 PM
No problem!
Presumably, if the ultimate goal was to enable passenger rail access, the line would need to follow S2 and S1 or M5, with an additional spur that gets as close as possible to the terminal before a people mover or something has to take over.
Which brings us to the problem. $200 million just builds the line for freight, assuming that there aren't any unexpected cost increases or complications. It doesn't include the cost of the additional spur to the airport itself, the rail terminal (+ either very long walkway to the airport or people mover), the potential cost of double-tracking part of the line (so there's room for both passenger/commuter trains and freight). There has to actually be a commuter rail service linking the airport and anywhere else.
This isn't to say that we shouldn't build the line period. But even if shovels were in the ground tomorrow we'd be a long way from making it possible for people to travel from the airport anywhere without a car or perhaps bus.
If the line were built for freight, it would at least preserve the possibility of adding a passenger component later. The biggest issue is nothing happens now to reserve r-o-w and its impossible to feasibly do anything in the future. The Northside is going through a growth spurt and people aren't going to hold back development that would interfere with this concept if there aren't concrete plans or reservations.
I have said it before: Jacksonville leaders have no long term vision or plans. It's why we ping pong among poorly conceived developer proposals rather than take charge of making this the best city it can be with a bit more thoughtfulness and civic altruism.
Looks like my prediction is coming true - no surprise. Area for a possible railroad connection to JIA is being slated for thousands of houses likely insuring this idea never sees the light of day again. JPA hasn't pursued it one bit. I would say it's a good possibility this rail line could rival the river dredging in value-add to our port but we will never know for sure now. I guess the JAA doesn't see the value of connecting rail to the airport one day either. One might think intermodal for freight (rail-air-truck-sea) might be super attractive to those optimizing logistics. No vision for the long term, typical.
QuoteTimberland stretching over thousands of acres in a rural part of the Northside emerged as the top choice in a 2016 study for the possible route of a brand-new freight rail connection for moving cargo from Jacksonville's port.
That expanse of forest, interspersed with pockets of cleared land where cattle roam, still looks the same as it did then. It's in a part of Jacksonville where residents say they have "room to breathe," where deer sightings are commonplace and the biggest retail operation is a pick-your-own blueberry farm.
But the rail study has faded away like a train that rumbles by and then disappears around the bend, leaving silence in its wake.
The pendelum has swung firmly from industrial to residential in plans that developers are bringing to City Hall. Thousands of new residents could move into the area in the coming years, a shift that would make even brainstorming about a rail line less politically viable in the future....
...Five years ago, that open land made it the top choice when the freight study looked at where to build a possible rail line.
The driving force behind the study was the TraPac terminal that opened just east of the Dames Point bridge in 2009, linking Jacksonville to Asian trade routes for the first time.
JaxPort still has an interest in a new rail line. Cargo unloaded at the TraPac terminal and nearby Blount Island terminal that is shipped by rail goes on a journey through Jacksonville where railroad crossings in existing neighborhoods make it a time-consuming trip in an industry where time is money.
"Any effort to enhance Northeast Florida's rail connectivity and increase the efficiencies of area roadways would benefit JAXPORT and the region's trade and transportation community," JaxPort spokeswoman Chelsea Kavanagh said.
The North Florida Transportation Organization, which coordinates transportation spending in the region, launched a study in 2012 of potential corridors that would give a faster, more direct connection.
A report issued in 2016 narrowed the options to a route that would run from the rail line along Main Street by heading east over to tie in with the existing rail line that heads north along Old Kings Road.
That proposed route hugged the northern side of Jacksonville International Airport and then dipped in a southeast direction. The estimated cost was $151 million to $200 million, a figure that included building overpasses at some roads including Interstate 95 so a train wouldn't stop car traffic.
But the state has no money in its five-year transportation spending plan for it. JaxPort isn't in talks with either CSX or Norfolk Southern about a new rail line. The 2016 report said in its conclusion that building a rail line would need support from "rail carriers and operators" for such a long-term project.
With the rail line study going nowhere, it wasn't even a dotted line on the map of the 1,097 acre Thomas Creek Regional Activity Center site that City Council recently favored for a major land use amendment.
"That's going to be overwhelmingly residential with some neighborhood-serving commercial," said Wyman Duggan, an attorney representing the developer. "There's no plan for a rail line going through there."...
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/09/24/idea-freight-rail-line-jacksonville-northside-fades-away/5780195001/
Not surprised. I never saw that rail line as being viable even when the study was being done. It didn't seem like the rail carriers were really interested in it.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 26, 2021, 10:52:38 PM
Not surprised. I never saw that rail line as being viable even when the study was being done. It didn't seem like the rail carriers were really interested in it.
The issue isn't just viability today but in the future. If the R-O-W isn't set aside now there is no possibility for the future. That is my main point. Assuming it's inevitable that future demand may justify this, whether for port/JIA freight connections and/or for commuters/airport passenger shuttling, funding at that time could possibly be spread between users, government and the railroads making it more feasible financially to get done. Again, that rings hollow if we don't set aside the R-O-W today.
Reminds me of the building of the Dames Point Bridge. Critics said it was too low. But we built it at the present height to meet then current standards not caring to plan for a future everyone knew would come for much taller ships. And, now, we are stuck.
Happened across a (somewhat) similar project occurring in Illinois, and thought I'd bring the comparison here.
Springfield, Illinois is undergoing a $315 million rail improvement project, relocating the entire Union Pacific line, which is also used by Amtrak, away from a street blocks away from the state capitol to instead run alongside an existing Norfolk Southern corridor, with a new connection to the remaining UP line:
(http://springfieldrailroad.com/newsite/images/stories/food/springfield%20map-future680.jpg)
This includes a brand new Amtrak station, local bus transfer hub, substantial grade separation, and the implementation of a quiet zone. Unlike the north corridor project here, which FDOT reported they expected railroads (CSX) to cover much of the cost for, this is largely paid by federal, state, and local funds:
(http://springfieldrailroad.com/newsite/images/stories/cost640w.jpg)
Just interesting to see what other states have decided to do with these kinds of projects.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 26, 2021, 10:59:45 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 26, 2021, 10:52:38 PM
Not surprised. I never saw that rail line as being viable even when the study was being done. It didn't seem like the rail carriers were really interested in it.
The issue isn't just viability today but in the future. If the R-O-W isn't set aside now there is no possibility for the future. That is my main point. Assuming it's inevitable that future demand may justify this, whether for port/JIA freight connections and/or for commuters/airport passenger shuttling, funding at that time could possibly be spread between users, government and the railroads making it more feasible financially to get done. Again, that rings hollow if we don't set aside the R-O-W today.
Reminds me of the building of the Dames Point Bridge. Critics said it was too low. But we built it at the present height to meet then current standards not caring to plan for a future everyone knew would come for much taller ships. And, now, we are stuck.
I don't think the ROW for freight rail up there is needed. Now or in the future.
Looks like DeSantis is helping Cecil with rail connectivity... this should be a good thing... of course the DeSantis haters will ignore or find fault... good news for the Westside...
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2022/11/29/desantis-announces-55m-in-funding-to-build-3-mile-railway-at-cecil-commerce-center/
It's nice to see the rail line being put back in. I wonder what existing tenants need access to rail?
Should help bring industry to the airport area.
I wonder if this kills the proposed rail trail that was going to connect the Jax/Baldwin Trail to trails in Clay County. If I remember correctly, the bike trail was going to use the (then) former rail passage under I-10.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 29, 2022, 08:17:53 PM
Should help bring industry to the airport area.
I wonder if this kills the proposed rail trail that was going to connect the Jax/Baldwin Trail to trails in Clay County. If I remember correctly, the bike trail was going to use the (then) former rail passage under I-10.
Probably. There might be enough room there to share but it's not a huge overpass. It'll be interesting to see where this alignment ends up.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 29, 2022, 08:17:53 PM
Should help bring industry to the airport area.
I wonder if this kills the proposed rail trail that was going to connect the Jax/Baldwin Trail to trails in Clay County. If I remember correctly, the bike trail was going to use the (then) former rail passage under I-10.
I hope they don't ruin industrial rail ROW to Cecil with a bike trail. It's much easier to figure out how to get bikes over an existing bridge or underpass than it is to figure out how to get rail access to Cecil. So I'm definitely glad this is going in sooner rather than later.
Will the track run all the way to Cecil Airport? Having intermodal capabilities there would seem to be golden for future development. If that works out well, maybe leaders would see the value of bringing rail to JIA one day as originally suggested :).
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 29, 2022, 08:17:53 PM
Should help bring industry to the airport area.
I wonder if this kills the proposed rail trail that was going to connect the Jax/Baldwin Trail to trails in Clay County. If I remember correctly, the bike trail was going to use the (then) former rail passage under I-10.
There are a network of trails that eventually run under I-10... I used to ride them. They are dirt and not improved... but fun and full of wildlife.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 30, 2022, 01:18:20 AM
Will the track run all the way to Cecil Airport? Having intermodal capabilities there would seem to be golden for future development. If that works out well, maybe leaders would see the value of bringing rail to JIA one day as originally suggested :).
No. This mileage only gets you halfway there. I don't see rail ever being run back into the airport.
Using Google Maps distance tool, 3 miles from the existing CSX line parallel to Beaver Street, and using the existing underpass near Otis Road, only gets you to the Bridgestone distribution facility on POW-MIA Memorial Parkway. As acme54321 said, only about halfway to the airport. Looking back at the article, it only talks about Cecil Commerce Center, not the airport. I confess to introducing the "airport" misdirection.
Looking at the street view from Otis Road under I-10 (link below), I am wondering if the clearance is high enough for a railroad to clear underneath. Can anyone confirm this is good? Certainly doesn't seem that a double stacked rail car could clear this. Do they plan to rebuild that overpass to a higher elevation?
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3050504,-81.898745,3a,41.3y,178.83h,84.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU1ZfVF2rBI3rQrpnQB3kwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
While it may never happen, it does appear to me there is a pathway to continue a rail line down to the airport and follow the perimeter road along 103rd to the large undeveloped land on the east side of the runway. If Boeing or others brought the right kind of project to that area, it might justify such an extension.
There was definitely a rail line out there in the past. Looks like a Seaboard Coastline Railway spur.
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.232423,-81.8851056,574m/data=!3m1!1e3
If you follow that line north you can see where a chunk was covered by the new POW-MIA Parkway.
I agree with you all, the rail would only support the Commerce Center and NOT the airport.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 01, 2022, 01:11:16 AM
Looking at the street view from Otis Road under I-10 (link below), I am wondering if the clearance is high enough for a railroad to clear underneath. Can anyone confirm this is good? Certainly doesn't seem that a double stacked rail car could clear this. Do they plan to rebuild that overpass to a higher elevation?
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3050504,-81.898745,3a,41.3y,178.83h,84.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU1ZfVF2rBI3rQrpnQB3kwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
While it may never happen, it does appear to me there is a pathway to continue a rail line down to the airport and follow the perimeter road along 103rd to the large undeveloped land on the east side of the runway. If Boeing or others brought the right kind of project to that area, it might justify such an extension.
If you zoom in on the pine tree at the fork in the dirt road, there are still rails present, and it looks like there are rails crossing the dirt road that heads west. Now, I don't know if a double-stack will fit under I-10, but there was definitely a rail line there at one time. Looking at Google Earth from Jan. 1994, you can see a rail spur branching from the mainline parallel to Beaver Street, heading south into the Cecil Field NAS, going by at least one of the "weapons bunkers" north of Normandy.
Sorry, can't figure out how to add a photo here.
At one point, the old rail line went south and served the warehouse that Northrop Grumman occupies at the intersection of POW-MIA Memorial Parkway and Crossover Street.
You can see a piece of old random rail here: https://goo.gl/maps/Uex9Y8mYKDUjjEas9
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 01, 2022, 10:31:16 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 01, 2022, 01:11:16 AM
Looking at the street view from Otis Road under I-10 (link below), I am wondering if the clearance is high enough for a railroad to clear underneath. Can anyone confirm this is good? Certainly doesn't seem that a double stacked rail car could clear this. Do they plan to rebuild that overpass to a higher elevation?
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3050504,-81.898745,3a,41.3y,178.83h,84.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU1ZfVF2rBI3rQrpnQB3kwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
While it may never happen, it does appear to me there is a pathway to continue a rail line down to the airport and follow the perimeter road along 103rd to the large undeveloped land on the east side of the runway. If Boeing or others brought the right kind of project to that area, it might justify such an extension.
If you zoom in on the pine tree at the fork in the dirt road, there are still rails present, and it looks like there are rails crossing the dirt road that heads west. Now, I don't know if a double-stack will fit under I-10, but there was definitely a rail line there at one time. Looking at Google Earth from Jan. 1994, you can see a rail spur branching from the mainline parallel to Beaver Street, heading south into the Cecil Field NAS, going by at least one of the "weapons bunkers" north of Normandy.
Sorry, can't figure out how to add a photo here.
Here is the view of the old tracks under I-10:
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3050144,-81.8988426,3a,36.1y,159.81h,75.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB6cwZzIutbyvbm_il2V1Lw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
These are from 1995
https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEH5WPE
https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEH5WPC
FDOT declined to include the North Rail Corridor in their final draft of the 2022 State Rail Plan.
https://www.fdot.gov/rail/plans/railplan
This is impressive. Jacksonville is so far behind in even thinking of this in our future. Note the rail connection tying into the airport vs. Jax walking away from even preserving a chance to do this one day. And, additional connections from the Orlando airport to the convention center and Disney are in the cards.
QuoteIntercity rail company Brightline on Jan. 9 pulled back the curtain on its future Central Florida train station at Orlando International Airport with the release of a video and renderings.
The station's main entrance is off the airport's two-story glass atrium. Once inside the station, passengers can buy tickets from guest services or self-service kiosks, and check luggage before proceeding through touchless turnstiles into the security screening area. Brightline is currently the only rail system in America that screens all passengers and bags prior to boarding.
The three-story station, which features luxury amenities for travelers, is expected to open this year. The station will include an upscale retail experience with in-station shopping and its Mary Mary Bar, serving hand-crafted cocktails and light bites. The signature sit-down bar is at the far end of the station with a panoramic view overlooking the train platform where guests can watch as trains arrive and depart the platform.
Located above the Mary Mary bar is an iconic, flip-flap message board that can rotate text and graphics to form a message. A nostalgic nod to historic train stations, the flip-flap will provide updated train schedules, boarding times, news of the day and other announcements complete with the flip-flap sound reminiscent of the first passenger train stations in America.
Passengers will access trains by escalator or elevators to the first level platform and board from one of two new track platforms. These 1,000-foot-long platforms will accommodate a train with four coaches and two locomotives that will transport guests on the Orlando to Miami route in just over three hours.
Brightline offers two classes of service: Smart and Premium. Brightline's Premium service will provide complimentary drinks and snacks in a dedicated lounge and train coach. Throughout the station, all guests will have access to free high-speed Wi-Fi, charging stations at every seat, 87 big-screen TVs and a children's play area in the Smart lounge.
The 37,350-square-foot station is in the heart of Orlando International Airport's new 80,000-square-foot Terminal C and connects directly to the airport's parking deck C, which will have more than 350 parking spaces reserved for Brightline guests. An automated people mover connects the terminal to the rest of the airport facilities including Terminal A and B in under five minutes....
....Meanwhile, Brightline's route to Orlando International Airport is roughly 86% complete and is expecting to complete construction by the middle of 2023. Revenue service on the roughly 170-mile expansion is targeted to begin later this year.
Brightline and commuter rail SunRail also are approaching the next steps for a proposed shared "Sunshine Corridor" for the two rail services. That shared east-west corridor would allow SunRail to connect with a station near Walt Disney World, near the Orange County Convention Center and Orlando International Airport, while also allowing Brightline to make its connection with Tampa....
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/01/09/brightline-new-luxury-train-station-florida.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=ae&utm_content=JA&j=30211175&senddate=2023-01-10
(https://media.bizj.us/view/img/12424560/01-brightline-orlando-station-entrance*750xx2667-1500-0-0.jpg)
To their credit, Orlando has been persistent. A high speed rail station at the airport has been planned or proposed for something like three decades now, including multiple shut-down projects (at least two of which the current mayor was in office to watch die), and finally they're seeing that dream come to fruition. Meanwhile Jacksonville's leadership has pretty much avoided being at the table at all when it comes to mass transportation. Especially seeing all the recent celebration of hitting a million residents, being the largest city in the country without an actual local rail system is a mistake we're going to pay for.
Back in the day, we (this website) had representatives attending high speed rail meetings in Central Florida than Jax's public agencies. The current outcome isn't a surprise. I mentioned a long time ago that the rail corridor thing to the airport wasn't real. That not being in the plan isn't surprising either. No rail operator proposed that and we all know that no local entity was going to pony up the cash for it. If you want to see an expansion of rail here happen within your lifetime, pray that some entity like Amtrak gets the money for their plans. We're no closer to a project happening at the local level today than we were 20 years ago.