After the accident that killed 2 people this past weekend on the Main Street Bridge, comments are appearing on the internet saying the lanes are too tight to maintain safe travel in 4 lanes.
So... should the bridge be modified, maybe for three lanes, with the middle lane being one way and reversed based on time of day? Should there only be two lanes and the other two are incorporated into wider travel lanes with added bike/pedestrian lanes (which adds the question of whether the "Landing" ramp should remain for pedestrian/bike access)? Should we start over and replace the entire bridge? Or, do we just leave it as is?
For comparison purposes, I note that we have another "new" area bridge in a downtown area that is also heavily traveled and it was kept at 2 lanes for historic purposes: The Bridge of Lions in St. Augustine. If you don't like the backups, you have to travel to the next bridge crossing.
I find it interesting that the Main St. bridge has somehow become an icon for Downtown. Growing up here, I don't recall the bridge getting that kind of attention. Most people cursed it for going up for boats at the most inconvenient times (some things never change ;D ). I guess just outliving the original Acosta Bridge moved it to the forefront as it assumed the title of our oldest bridge. It also gained new appreciation when it was incorporated into the logo for the Super Bowl here in 2005.
Don't get me wrong, I like the bridge's retro style and reminder of our past. I am just wondering what others here think of it and its current configuration.
yes - the bridge needs fewer, wider lanes....which would allow for dedicated bike lanes (the grating can be covered), meaning the sidewalks would be just for peds.
The Acosta offers plenty of auto capacity
I think replacement is out of the question. That's expensive, and there are many other priorities. If any bridge is getting replaced anytime soon, it would (and probably should) be the Matthews. As tragic as this accident is, it's relatively rare, and I would be shocked if the city changed anything as a result of it.
I'd argue that if we're going to do anything at all, the two-lane+pedestrian lanes idea sounds decent. We've closed it completely to pedestrian access before, for the Super Bowl. The Mayor's "Riverfront Plaza" proposal includes a smaller ramp for pedestrian/bike access, although whether it will actually be implemented is possibly in question. Reversible lanes is an alternative option, although I don't know how well that works with it being a movable bridge. Either way, there'd be a matter of adjusting to sending much more access through the Acosta.
I'm young enough that I don't remember it being anything other than iconic, but I do think it's nice to look at and a decent gateway. The matter is making what's at the other end worthwhile.
The lanes are fine if people drive slow. I'm not sure of the speed limit there but people tend to gun it on the bridge. On the other hand, the AADT is only 13,700. Other than the off chance of capacity being preserved for in case of hurricane evacuation or I-95 being shut down, going down to two lanes with a cycle track could work too.
The lanes are tighter than normal and seem more so because they are boxed inside the bridge. If anything they should put those flappy lane markers down the center divider to get people's attention of they drift over center.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2020, 10:27:24 PM
The lanes are fine if people drive slow. I'm not sure of the speed limit there but people tend to gun it on the bridge.
This.
As someone who drives over the Main Street Bridge twice daily, I honestly don't think there's anything inherently dangerous about the bridge.
It's tight, but I'm more nervous driving on a highway with a narrow shoulder than I am on the Main Street Bridge.
To Lake's point, I'm not a traffic engineer, but there's something really screwy with the timing of the lights down Main Street as you approach the bridge from the Northbank that causes people to absolutely GUN through those last three or four lights. Puts you on the bridge at like 65 mph. I've seen it almost cause some pretty bad accidents.
Lower the speed limit, tweak the timing of the lights, and put up the flappy lane markers described above and I think you get the same result without adding the further confusion of having a lane that alternates direction depending on time of day.
It'd be the most Jacksonville thing ever to replace the Main Street Bridge.
Given the amount of development around both ends of the Main Street Bridge, I think replacement is off the table. This is especially the case if the Coast Guard would require the same 65-foot clearance above the river as the new Acosta. The current clearance is 35 feet (or 40', 2 sources, 2 numbers) in the down position.
According to Wikipedia, the bridge deck is 58' wide, 42' of which is the roadway, implying two 8' sidewalks. At 42', each of the four lanes is just over 10' wide. If you reconfigure to have three lanes, at 12' each, that would leave six feet, which could be added to the sidewalks. Not really wide enough to create 2 bike lanes, and would be tight if all six feet were on one side.
Widening both sidewalks would likely not be cheap, given how 'tall' the sidewalk is above the roadway and the removal/relocation of the barrier wall. The advantage to widening both sidewalks would be to provide more of a buffer, on both sides, between the roadway and the bridge piers. But, it seems to this non-engineer, widening only one sidewalk by six feet might be less expensive.
Whether having a center reversible lane would be appropriate would depend on whether the peak-hour traffic is "directional enough" - back of the envelope numbers for 2 lanes in one direction, and one in the other would be a 67%/33% traffic split. If peak traffic is more evenly split than that, perhaps one lane in each direction might work - if there is a way to safely pass stalled vehicles.
Two lanes could be done with 24' of auto lanes, leaving 18 feet for a buffered cycle track - which, in an emergency would provide room to get around a stalled car. This seems to be the best solution.
As noted by others, the Acosta Bridge has plenty of available capacity for cars.
Distracted drivers cross medians and cause head on collisions. Put down your damn phone and drive your car. I think the center divider is a good idea...
The speed limit on the bridge is 30. I'm sure they were going a LOT faster than that.
The FDOT has already stated the bridge is functionally obsolete.
https://www.news4jax.com/traffic/2016/01/26/fdot-2-downtown-bridges-obsolete/ (https://www.news4jax.com/traffic/2016/01/26/fdot-2-downtown-bridges-obsolete/)
From the FHWA website, they stopped using the term "functionally obsolete" in Fiscal Year 2015.
Quote
Functionally Obsolete (FO): This term was previously defined in https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/0650dsup.cfm as having an appraisal rating of 3 or less for Item 68 (Deck Geometry), Item 69 (Underclearances), or Item 72 (Approach Roadway Alignment), OR having an appraisal rating of 3 for Item 67 (Structural Condition) or Item 71 (Waterway Adequacy). Functionally obsolete is a legacy classification that was used to implement the Highway Bridge Program, which was discontinued with the enactment of MAP-21. As a result, fiscal year 2015 was the last year outstanding Highway Bridge Program funds could be obligated on eligible projects, including ones with bridges that were once classified as functionally obsolete. Therefore, FHWA is no longer tracking this measure, and will not be publishing it on our website for the 2016 data forward. Our focus has shifted to a performance-based program as established in MAP-21 and continued in the Fast Act. As such, we encourage the use of the Good-Fair-Poor bridge condition measures outlined in the Pavement and Bridge Condition Performance Measures final rule, published in January of 2017.
From the Florida DOT website
Quote
The bridge inventory in Florida ranks among the best in the nation, as a percentage of bridges that are considered "poor" (FHWA's Tables of Frequently Requested NBI Information). The tables below retain two older terms, Structurally Deficient (SD) and Functionally Obsolete (FO). FO means that the bridge design is outdated. For example, narrow shoulders, narrow lanes, or older traffic barriers can induce the functionally obsolete classification. Functionally obsolete bridges are scheduled for replacement or rehabilitation as budgets permit.
Note the "as budgets permit" - it will be a long time before the FDOT budget allows replacing this bridge. They will continue to spend funds to "rehabilitate" the bridge, especially the machinery that raises/lowers the bridge to allow boat traffic. It might be possible to convince FDOT to include a "lane diet" as [part of] a bridge rehab project.
Do you guys remember the old Acosta bridge? I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that being far tighter and scarier than the Main St bridge.
I never had issues with the Main St bridge - of course, maybe if I drove a big car or truck, it might seem too tight.
In a dream world with piles of money lying around (maybe from when we sold JEA in a very transparent manner), I'd do this:
- One lane in either direction
- Cycle Track on either side (Sidewalk for peds only)
- Get rid of the Southbank flyover. Bring the intersections with Prudential, Mary, and Riverplace at grade.
- Offer to convey now surplus land (where the at grade "service road" is on either side of the flyover) to the adjacent landowners for $1....PROVIDED they agree to add retail to their buildings. That would be the ownership of the Suddath, Former Stein Mart HQ, Prudential/Prudential Parking Garage Buildings. The last adjacent property is Treaty Oak Park (obviously don't put that into private hands except perhaps a Restroom/concession kiosk). It could make a nice pedestrian friendly area.
- On the northbank, if you can bring the bridge ramps to grade at Independent Drive, then do so. That may not be possible though. If not leave as is and demolish the ramp to Newnan Street if development is there to make use out of it.
Back to reality (Curry is still the Mayor):
- Reduce to 2 lanes
- Add Cycle Track.
- Call it a day.
That should be somewhat cheap, but I'd also say this is not in my top 10 for Downtown.
I'm surprised no one mentioned the need/desire to close off a lane for a hot dog cart. Obviously said cart should be placed at the apex of the bridge.
Let's see if Tampa/Miami can top that!
Quote from: vicupstate on December 09, 2020, 10:57:54 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned the need/desire to close off a lane for a hot dog cart. Obviously said cart should be placed at the apex of the bridge.
Let's see if Tampa/Miami can top that!
Blast from the past....did we ever decide if the Hot Dog cart goes up with the bridge?
Quote from: vicupstate on December 09, 2020, 10:57:54 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned the need/desire to close off a lane for a hot dog cart. Obviously said cart should be placed at the apex of the bridge.
Let's see if Tampa/Miami can top that!
The irony is not lost that the current administration is moving forward with many of the concepts from former Mayor Peyton's Big Idea- tearing down the Landing for a park, tearing down the Main St bridge ramps (which is actually a good thing), taking out River City Brewing and pushing development ang big capital spends to the Sports District.
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-peytons-struggles-the-big-idea (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-peytons-struggles-the-big-idea)
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-apr-salvaging-the-big-idea-ii-preserving-friendship-fountain (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-apr-salvaging-the-big-idea-ii-preserving-friendship-fountain)
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-mar-salvaging-the-big-idea-i-kids-kampus-flex-space (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-mar-salvaging-the-big-idea-i-kids-kampus-flex-space)
What ever happened to the bacon barge?
Quote from: acme54321 on December 09, 2020, 11:27:43 AM
What ever happened to the bacon barge?
That person moved to Oregon.
Quote from: fieldafm on December 09, 2020, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on December 09, 2020, 11:27:43 AM
What ever happened to the bacon barge?
That person moved to Oregon.
Holy cow. That was amazing.
We should keep this thread on track though.
BAD EXPERIENCE AT MOON RIVER PIZZA
OK....Starting NOW!
SCREW THOSE PIZZA CHUCKING HIPSTERS!!! >:(
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2020, 10:27:24 PM
The lanes are fine if people drive slow. I'm not sure of the speed limit there but people tend to gun it on the bridge. On the other hand, the AADT is only 13,700. Other than the off chance of capacity being preserved for in case of hurricane evacuation or I-95 being shut down, going down to two lanes with a cycle track could work too.
Speed limit is 30mph. Cars regularly go 60mph.
My money is that the northbound vehicle's, the Geico vehicle, driver was distracted ( using phone, reaching for something in backseat, et al ).
2 lanes each way would be nice. Curious how they'd do cycletrack with the open grate portion. Not saying it can't be done, just curious what it would take.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 09, 2020, 12:35:38 PM
2 lanes each way would be nice. Curious how they'd do cycletrack with the open grate portion. Not saying it can't be done, just curious what it would take.
You can ride over it, its a little bumpy on a road bike but it's ok.
Personally, I think two lanes would probably be an issue during rush hour, periods of heavy traffic and events downtown. Start with enforcing the speed limit and minimally invasive traffic calming installs like lane dividers and rumble strips.
Removal of the elevated bridge and dropping Main down to grade on the Southbank would really slow it down.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 09, 2020, 12:35:38 PM
2 lanes each way would be nice. Curious how they'd do cycletrack with the open grate portion. Not saying it can't be done, just curious what it would take.
Chicago has figured out how to retrofit some of the bridges crossing the river - check out Kinzie Street
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 09, 2020, 02:57:54 PM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 09, 2020, 12:35:38 PM
2 lanes each way would be nice. Curious how they'd do cycletrack with the open grate portion. Not saying it can't be done, just curious what it would take.
Chicago has figured out how to retrofit some of the bridges crossing the river - check out Kinzie Street
Yes, you essentially bolt/weld metal plates over the existing metal grating to provide a smooth and safe surface for cyclists to ride on. Its a very cost-effective solution.
(https://overthebarsinmilwaukee.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/clybourn-p1000141.jpg?w=640)
(https://streetfilms.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2012/01/CHI-NACTO-C4CPoster.jpg)
The potential issue with adding steel plates, or any solid surface, over, or in place of the open grating, is the weight. The engineers will have to sharpen their pencils* to make sure [a] the bridge structure can carry the additional weight (like the Mathews could), and the lift mechanism will still work.
* or run a few more model simulations
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 09, 2020, 04:42:25 PM
The potential issue with adding steel plates, or any solid surface, over, or in place of the open grating, is the weight. The engineers will have to sharpen their pencils* to make sure [a] the bridge structure can carry the additional weight (like the Mathews could), and the lift mechanism will still work.
* or run a few more model simulations
I'm not an engineer - and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night - so I could be totally wrong. But given the relatively short section that would be covered (or partially covered) with plates, I wouldn't be surprised if the weight added is less than the weight the section would bear if it had to lanes of automobile traffic running over it. If I understand this correctly, you'd lose one traffic lane on each side and replace those with bike lanes (which would have steel plates over the grated section).
Quote from: Adam White on December 10, 2020, 05:05:36 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 09, 2020, 04:42:25 PM
The potential issue with adding steel plates, or any solid surface, over, or in place of the open grating, is the weight. The engineers will have to sharpen their pencils* to make sure [a] the bridge structure can carry the additional weight (like the Mathews could), and the lift mechanism will still work.
* or run a few more model simulations
I'm not an engineer - and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night - so I could be totally wrong. But given the relatively short section that would be covered (or partially covered) with plates, I wouldn't be surprised if the weight added is less than the weight the section would bear if it had to lanes of automobile traffic running over it. If I understand this correctly, you'd lose one traffic lane on each side and replace those with bike lanes (which would have steel plates over the grated section).
I am not an engineer either, but I used to work where there were lots of them (which makes my "knowledge" perhaps more dangerous :) ) - but I recall there being a difference between "static load" (the steel plates) and "dynamic load" (the traffic moving over the bridge). That's why those engineer folk will have to sharpen their pencils and get out their slide rules* to figure whether the bridge can handle the changes. My guess - probably "yes" as we are told that "in the old days" (bridge was opened in 1941) things were overbuilt and built to last.
* slide rule, an ancient artifact - for you young whippersnappers (and get offa my lawn) https://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/sliderules/
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 10, 2020, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 10, 2020, 05:05:36 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 09, 2020, 04:42:25 PM
The potential issue with adding steel plates, or any solid surface, over, or in place of the open grating, is the weight. The engineers will have to sharpen their pencils* to make sure [a] the bridge structure can carry the additional weight (like the Mathews could), and the lift mechanism will still work.
* or run a few more model simulations
I'm not an engineer - and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night - so I could be totally wrong. But given the relatively short section that would be covered (or partially covered) with plates, I wouldn't be surprised if the weight added is less than the weight the section would bear if it had to lanes of automobile traffic running over it. If I understand this correctly, you'd lose one traffic lane on each side and replace those with bike lanes (which would have steel plates over the grated section).
I am not an engineer either, but I used to work where there were lots of them (which makes my "knowledge" perhaps more dangerous :) ) - but I recall there being a difference between "static load" (the steel plates) and "dynamic load" (the traffic moving over the bridge). That's why those engineer folk will have to sharpen their pencils and get out their slide rules* to figure whether the bridge can handle the changes. My guess - probably "yes" as we are told that "in the old days" (bridge was opened in 1941) things were overbuilt and built to last.
* slide rule, an ancient artifact - for you young whippersnappers (and get offa my lawn) https://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/sliderules/
Yeah, that makes sense. And, it occurred to me later that the bridge doesn't lift with cars on it - so your comment re the weight and the bridge being able to be raised make sense.
I do remember slide rules - I am "only" middle-aged, but they were still a thing when I was a young whippersnapper. I mean, nobody was probably using them anymore, but you'd come across them from time to time. I think maybe my dad had one.
Just put the metal plates on and see what happens. There's precedent - remember the giant, heavy, concrete planters that were once on the Riverwalk in front of the Hyatt (then Adam's Mark)?
Mind you these types of accidents are pretty rare but there may be a regional logistical issue making that stretch of road more dangerous.
Forget all those constant tropes about the driving abilities in other regions, many drivers in the South have the benefit in recent years of many of their heavily travelled roads expanded with additional wider lanes featuring bike lanes rarely utilized with ample median separation from oncoming traffic; and the areas where those roads aren't are in parts of town many suburbanites don't spend a lot of time in. Here in New Jersey, more of our major roads have a similar configuration to that stretch of the Main St. bridge unable to be improved in any significant way or subjected to a 'road diet' which is why drivers in North Florida not only drive faster on their typical 4 lane roadways then their Garden State counterparts when congestion is not an issue, they are also less susceptible for any consequences in situations they suddenly become "distracted". And head on collision incidents are just as rare in Jersey even when thing like sudden snow squalls hit the roads probably because of the limitations to driving full tilt Florida-style.
Plus I wouldn't doubt there is a temptation for drivers not fond of dealing with the typical downtown street grid and congestion issues to treat Main St. like it was the Gatornationals. What was the average speed of cars traveling down the old Hart Bridge ramps again?
Alas, I see more of these types of accidents even here in New Jersey due to less road congestion stemming from the rise of telecommuting and distanced-everything brought about by the Covid-19 outbreak: People driving at higher speeds, distracted driving habits rising, and ultimately letting their guard down on practicing safer driving in general.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 09, 2020, 12:35:38 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2020, 10:27:24 PM
The lanes are fine if people drive slow. I'm not sure of the speed limit there but people tend to gun it on the bridge. On the other hand, the AADT is only 13,700. Other than the off chance of capacity being preserved for in case of hurricane evacuation or I-95 being shut down, going down to two lanes with a cycle track could work too.
2 lanes each way would be nice. Curious how they'd do cycletrack with the open grate portion. Not saying it can't be done, just curious what it would take.
The only time grates are an issue with bicyclists is when they are wet. Any sudden shift of weight on a hollow wet grate can have you suddenly on the floor in less than a second. A metal cover would help but ideally you would want to pave the grate opening over. And that's why it's just safer to take the few extra minutes and just used the Acosta or better yet the new Fuller Warren path once completed.
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on December 10, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
And that's why it's just safer to take the few extra minutes and just used the Acosta or better yet the new Fuller Warren path once completed.
On a bike, if the most convenient thing is the Main Street Bridge, even the Acosta is quite a few "extra minutes"...nevermind the Fuller Warren. There has to be a way to make this work, if they wanted to.
Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2020, 12:28:11 PM
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on December 10, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
And that's why it's just safer to take the few extra minutes and just used the Acosta or better yet the new Fuller Warren path once completed.
On a bike, if the most convenient thing is the Main Street Bridge, even the Acosta is quite a few "extra minutes"...nevermind the Fuller Warren. There has to be a way to make this work, if they wanted to.
Not to mention the grade on the Main Street bridge is a lot more tolerable than any other bridge given its lower roadway elevation. 8)!
It was fun to walk over the bridge when they closed it to traffic and made it pedestrian only (thousands were on it at peak times) during the Super Bowl. I still think they should do that at least once a month tied to a Bay Street fair as was done then. Could really help Downtown and would cost next to nothing to produce. But again, sadly, our City has no imagination so I am I not surprised it doesn't happen.
JaxJerseylicious' comment reminds me that a metal plate covering the grating may not be much safer for bikes than the open grate - metal gets slick in the rain and in the morning dew or foggy conditions. Probably should look at the material FDOT used to replace the open grate on the Mathews Bridge a few years ago.
LOVE the idea of street fairs w/the MSB closed off to vehicles. As far as the safety issue, besides people opting to obey speed limits (it does seem an option, to some - ) when that bridge was built no one manufactured behemoth family vehicles (dually trucks, Hummers) with all that extra width. So it can be a little concerning to wonder if you're going to get swiped off the bridge into the river. But, being Jacksonville, let's just tear that sucker down and plant a hydroponic sod bed in the river - it'll be The Mother of All Greenspace.
From FDOT
Quote
Daytime Closures Planned on Main Street Bridge Next Week
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - Motorists can expect daytime closures of the Main Street Bridge in downtown Jacksonville Monday, December 14 through Thursday, December 17. The closures will take place daily between the hours of 9 a.m. until 4 p.m. for routine maintenance. Drivers will be detoured to the Acosta Bridge; marine traffic will not be impacted by the closures.
The closure of the bridge is necessary for routine maintenance activities, which include replacing rivets under the machinery room, replacing camera cables, routine welding of the deck grating, replacing seals in operating drums, and miscellaneous spot painting.
The Florida Department of Transportation has a robust bridge maintenance program that protects taxpayer investments and ensures the structures receive preventative maintenance to extend the life of their investment.
The Main Street Bridge is a vertical lift bridge and is raised and lowered more than 1,400 times a year.
Stay informed about lane closures and roadwork in your area by following FDOT District 2 at @MyFDOT_NEFL on Twitter or at MyFDOTNEFL on Facebook.
###
I could not find how much this project costs. Probably just built into their bridge maintenance budget.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 13, 2020, 12:27:50 PM
From FDOT
Quote
Daytime Closures Planned on Main Street Bridge Next Week
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - Motorists can expect daytime closures of the Main Street Bridge in downtown Jacksonville Monday, December 14 through Thursday, December 17. The closures will take place daily between the hours of 9 a.m. until 4 p.m. for routine maintenance. Drivers will be detoured to the Acosta Bridge; marine traffic will not be impacted by the closures.
The closure of the bridge is necessary for routine maintenance activities, which include replacing rivets under the machinery room, replacing camera cables, routine welding of the deck grating, replacing seals in operating drums, and miscellaneous spot painting.
The Florida Department of Transportation has a robust bridge maintenance program that protects taxpayer investments and ensures the structures receive preventative maintenance to extend the life of their investment.
The Main Street Bridge is a vertical lift bridge and is raised and lowered more than 1,400 times a year.
Stay informed about lane closures and roadwork in your area by following FDOT District 2 at @MyFDOT_NEFL on Twitter or at MyFDOTNEFL on Facebook.
###
I could not find how much this project costs. Probably just built into their bridge maintenance budget.
Thanks for the heads up, Charles!
Took a different route in this morning because of this post.