Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/-1/Midtown-Tampa-Renderings/i-wgv9dgX/0/fab0aca6/L/70642062_395089914528510_3936900244809187328_o-L.jpg)
Depending on what side of the fence a person falls on, the Lot J development proposed by Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan, is viewed as either a downtown gamechanger or a smaller, more expensive version of the failed Jacksonville Landing. While the scope of the heavily debated $450 million project has shrunk in recent weeks, the financial demands of taxpayers have remained the same. As things currently stand, Lot J will bring 350 residential units, a 120 room hotel, 35,000 square feet of Class A office space, and 75,000 square feet of retail and dining space in the form of Cordish's Live! entertainment center concept. With that in mind, Jacksonville isn't the only town with a major infill development proposed. In fact, most cities of similar size have comparable developments either proposed or already under construction in them. Midtown Tampa is an example of what $500 million will get you in suburban Tampa.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/midtown-tampa-what-500-million-gets-you-in-tampa/
Amazing!
Don't forget that $500 million also gets you 1,850 structured parking spots in Tampa (1,100 in the main garage, another 700 in the Whole Foods garage*), compared to a paltry 600 structured parking spaces for our meager $450 million spend.
Should have sprung for the deluxe package.
*https://barrandbarr.com/project/midtown-tampa-development/
"As things currently stand, Lot J will bring 350 residential units, a 120 room hotel, 35,000 square feet of Class A office space, and 75,000 square feet of retail and dining space in the form"..............IN THE MIDDLE OF A PARKING LOT, A HALF MILE FROM THE JAIL, SURROUNDED BY MORE ASPHALT!
Fucking insanity.
Does anyone consider Midtown Tampa to be a game changer for Tampa? Does anyone here expect that tourist will come to Tampa because of this project?
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2020, 09:30:14 PM
Does anyone consider Midtown Tampa to be a game changer for Tampa? Does anyone here expect that tourist will come to Tampa because of this project?
no - especially since it was first proposed around 2001. I think the land was acquired and mostly cleared over 15 years ago.
What it does do is start to densify the Dale Mabry corridor - and begin to bridge the gap between downtown and Westshore.
^The reason I ask is because there are still people in this community who believe Lot J is some sort of transformational project that will attract millions of people to downtown. If this is not a gamechanger, something significantly smaller in Jacksonville will not be either, no matter who builds it. Other than that, how does Lot J continue to drop in scale but the financial incentives level remains the same? I mean, if we're going to put this much money into a project, should it not be more significant in size, with a cost/sf in the range of similar projects across the state and country?
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2020, 10:39:38 PM
^The reason I ask is because there are still people in this community who believe Lot J is some sort of transformational project that will attract millions of people to downtown. If this is not a gamechanger, something significantly smaller in Jacksonville will not be either, no matter who builds it. Other than that, how does Lot J continue to drop in scale but the financial incentives level remains the same? I mean, if we're going to put this much money into a project, should it not be more significant in size, with a cost/sf in the range of similar projects across the state and country?
As it aged, the Landing seemed to become a place, at most, to stop by for most people if they were already in the Downtown area looking for something to do. And those people were most likely here for an event like Fla/Ga, Xmas lighting, July 4th fireworks, etc., I don't think the Landing was a destination capable of attracting many visitors, especially from out-of-town, all by itself.
Likewise, after a novelty period, I don't see Lot J pulling in many visitors other than during events in the sports complex. And, most of those visitors will be locals cannibalized from other venues in the urban core or maybe from Town Center. I can't imagine someone in Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, New Orleans, Nashville, New York, or even in places between Daytona and Savannah or anywhere else waking up and saying, gee, we need to go to Jacksonville, FL to see LIVE! at Lot J!
If one assumes our biggest tourist draw is our beaches, I also don't see why someone on vacation would "come into town" to see it. Now, if LIVE! was in Jacksonville Beach, that would be a different story. Tourists already in the area might hit at night after a day at the beach. Downtown has no tourists traffic aside from special events so there isn't a sustainable natural constituency.
Add it all up, and I agree, Lot J isn't going to be transformational for Downtown. It will be transformational for taxpayers' and Khan's wallets though, with opposite effects 8).
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 08, 2020, 11:04:55 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2020, 10:39:38 PM
^The reason I ask is because there are still people in this community who believe Lot J is some sort of transformational project that will attract millions of people to downtown. If this is not a gamechanger, something significantly smaller in Jacksonville will not be either, no matter who builds it. Other than that, how does Lot J continue to drop in scale but the financial incentives level remains the same? I mean, if we're going to put this much money into a project, should it not be more significant in size, with a cost/sf in the range of similar projects across the state and country?
As it aged, the Landing seemed to become a place, at most, to stop by for most people if they were already in the Downtown area looking for something to do. And those people were most likely here for an event like Fla/Ga, Xmas lighting, July 4th fireworks, etc., I don't think the Landing was a destination capable of attracting many visitors, especially from out-of-town, all by itself.
Likewise, after a novelty period, I don't see Lot J pulling in many visitors other than during events in the sports complex. And, most of those visitors will be locals cannibalized from other venues in the urban core or maybe from Town Center. I can't imagine someone in Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, New Orleans, Nashville, New York, or even in places between Daytona and Savannah or anywhere else waking up and saying, gee, we need to go to Jacksonville, FL to see LIVE! at Lot J!
If one assumes our biggest tourist draw is our beaches, I also don't see why someone on vacation would "come into town" to see it. Now, if LIVE! was in Jacksonville Beach, that would be a different story. Tourists already in the area might hit at night after a day at the beach. Downtown has no tourists traffic aside from special events so there isn't a sustainable natural constituency.
Add it all up, and I agree, Lot J isn't going to be transformational for Downtown. It will be transformational for taxpayers' and Khan's wallets though, with opposite effects 8).
"Likewise, after a novelty period, I don't see Lot J pulling in many visitors other than during events in the sports complex. And, most of those visitors will be locals cannibalized from other venues in the urban core or maybe from Town Center. I can't imagine someone in Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, New Orleans, Nashville, New York, or even in places between Daytona and Savannah or anywhere else waking up and saying, gee, we need to go to Jacksonville, FL to see LIVE! at Lot J!"
LOLOLOLOLOL.......
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2020, 10:39:38 PM
^The reason I ask is because there are still people in this community who believe Lot J is some sort of transformational project that will attract millions of people to downtown. If this is not a gamechanger, something significantly smaller in Jacksonville will not be either, no matter who builds it. Other than that, how does Lot J continue to drop in scale but the financial incentives level remains the same? I mean, if we're going to put this much money into a project, should it not be more significant in size, with a cost/sf in the range of similar projects across the state and country?
I mean, that's because people like Mark Lamping have just outright lied about what the project is and what the results will be. 2-3 million more visitors a year? Really? And with how much the scale has changed, chances are the current renderings are out of date anyway. Of course they're refusing to allow public accessibility for what Khan's actual investment will be, so we won't know until the bill passes. It's such a disappointing mess, and embarrassing to see the likelihood of the city choosing to wear this albatross.
Did Lamping say that about the 2-3 million visitors MORE per year? Can you source that? That's ridiculous. By that I mean Lot J will not bring in that amount of foot traffic.
Could Jacksonville create a dynamic downtown waterfront that can capture SOME of the southbound I 95 traffic, and also other visitors? Yes of course, but LOT J will not do it.
Is there a bright shiny new STARBUCKS in the plan? Now that would be a game changer. 8)
In fact, throw in a Chik Fil A with a double drive through and half of Jax will be there!!!
Quote from: MusicMan on December 09, 2020, 08:35:53 AM
Did Lamping say that about the 2-3 million visitors MORE per year? Can you source that? That's ridiculous. By that I mean Lot J will not bring in that amount of foot traffic.
Could Jacksonville create a dynamic downtown waterfront that can capture SOME of the southbound I 95 traffic, and also other visitors? Yes of course, but LOT J will not do it.
Is there a bright shiny new STARBUCKS in the plan? Now that would be a game changer. 8)
In fact, throw in a Chik Fil A with a double drive through and half of Jax will be there!!!
Don't forget the game changer of game changers, a Fudruckers!
Quote from: MusicMan on December 09, 2020, 08:35:53 AM
Did Lamping say that about the 2-3 million visitors MORE per year? Can you source that? That's ridiculous. By that I mean Lot J will not bring in that amount of foot traffic.
Could Jacksonville create a dynamic downtown waterfront that can capture SOME of the southbound I 95 traffic, and also other visitors? Yes of course, but LOT J will not do it.
Is there a bright shiny new STARBUCKS in the plan? Now that would be a game changer. 8)
In fact, throw in a Chik Fil A with a double drive through and half of Jax will be there!!!
From my recollection, it was at the DIA meeting last week. I assume Lake was telling the truth here:
Quote from: thelakelander on December 02, 2020, 04:02:48 PM
It was said that Lot J is estimated to attract an additional 2 to 3 million visitors to the sports district annually. To put that number in context with something that people can better understand locally, the 2009 DVI State of Downtown report estimated that the Landing attracted 4 to 4.5 million visitors annually between 2005 and 2009.
See page 14 in the link: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-state-of-downtown-2009-progress-report
How much, if any, public spending or tax abatement is involved with the Midtown Tampa project?
^Midtown Tampa is a market rate project. The developer did not request financial incentives from what we understand. However, that market and specifically, the Midtown Tampa location, is in a much more advantageous position for what's proposed, than the Lot J site.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2020, 11:23:14 AM
^Midtown Tampa is a market rate project. The developer did not request financial incentives from what we understand. However, that market and specifically, the Midtown Tampa location, is in a much more advantageous position for what's proposed, than the Lot J site.
A project I recently worked on has a very similar development program as Lot J and also did not need any incentives, though like Midtown Tampa, it is in a much stronger market. Phase 1 is under construction and Phase 2 will be starting soon.
It's an existing development that has a few good anchor tenants like a movie theater, Whole Foods, and West Elm; but needs a major update. It's getting a new 150k square foot LifeTime Fitness (multi-story upscale club with rooftop pools), 9 story-174 room hotel, 8 story-283 unit apartment building, 28k of class-A Office, 4 story addition to an existing parking garage, new 461 parking space garage, major streetscape/hardscape improvements, and complete façade update of the existing center. Sadly, I don't know the overall cost of the redevelopment because it was shared by multiple entities.
Here's a bad marketing video
https://vimeo.com/431590070
"It was said that Lot J is estimated to attract an additional 2 to 3 million visitors to the sports district annually. To put that number in context with something that people can better understand locally, the 2009 DVI State of Downtown report estimated that the Landing attracted 4 to 4.5 million visitors annually between 2005 and 2009."
Over 10,000 visitors per day (average) to The Landing? If that was the case they never would have torn it down.
^The Landing getting torn down was a political move. It had nothing to do with the structure itself. In fact, downtown would already be vibrant if it were not for years of politics. When the politics are removed, things can move pretty quick when you have a market and demand for pedestrian oriented uses.
Another interesting comparison is The Wharf in DC. TRULY a gamechanging development and something I think everyone in Jax could throw their support behind.
Phase 2 of the development is currently underway at a projected cost of $1.25 billion (presumably with higher costs in DC).
It includes:
255 apartments
96 condominiums
131 hotel rooms
223 boat slips at the Wharf Marina
1.5 acre park at the Marshall Park Landing
547,000 SF office space
95,000 SF retail space
2 underground garages with over 1,000 spaces total
The architecture is on a completely different level than what we've seen in the Lot J renderings.
https://phase2.wharfdc.com/gallery/
The total development (including Phase 1) has 3.2 million square feet of retail, residential, and entertainment along a 1 mile stretch of the Potomoc. Total cost 2.5 billion. Obviously there should be some efficiencies and economies of scale that can be assumed to bring total cost down a bit in a larger development, but it sure seems like they are getting a lot more bang for their buck there.
Come join me on a little trip north to Atlanta. If anyone can read this post and the Tampa comparison and still not have some strong doubts about the estimated costs of Lot J, please send me a PM. I'd love to sell you some beautiful spoil islands all around Florida.
-Phase 1 of Midtown Union has an estimated construction cost of $410 million. Construction is currently underway for a 26 story, 600k square foot office building, an 18 story residential building with 355 units, a 12-story 205-room hotel, and 30k square feet of retail space, and 1,909 parking spaces. Architecture is substantially better than Lot J.
https://www.coopercarry.com/projects/midtown-union/
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-1105 West Peachtree Plaza in Midtown Atlanta has an estimated cost of $530 million for a 32-story, 675k square foot Class A office building, 178 room hotel, and 64 condo's. Insanely expensive architectural and structural costs.
http://1105westpeachtree.com/
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2U2_UuRCmx5b2tyUZt6Aj7sCqik=/0x0:4000x6300/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:4000x6300):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/13643508/0211_Hero_Email.jpg)
-Next lets look at the redevelopment of Phipps Plaza at an estimated cost of $300 million. It includes a 150 room Nobu hotel with rooftop pool, and conference center and Nobu restaurant. As well as a 13-story 350k square foot office building and 3-story parking garage, along with a 90k square foot Life Time Fitness with rooftop pool and beach club. Architecture exceeds Lot J quality. Construction costs are more expensive being built on a raised podium.
https://19ecc05a05d7c6bd5508-fe453cfe00977a743e98d480a2f68fee.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/One%20Phipps%20Plaza%2010-15-20%20with%20web%20link%20E.pdf
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-Norfolk Southern's new headquarters is estimated at $575 million. This includes 750k square foot of class A office space in two towers. Architecture is on a completely different level than Lot J
https://atlanta.curbed.com/2019/3/27/18283406/norfolk-southerns-hq-midtown-cousins-properties
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/-IUa4nOTP-ly4fc-9j8HJI3hcTnSOlQ4EqozxnvPzZkCY5_zL6lNHE18BtV_BVl9Ay2Q1LTZS29bI-7-aNkt4fUndOC-ATGofX4GZPAIMNR1mKyvzSm1E_QcyagpO8nWGEtNBF-biHkh3S9bqX6H5v5EjtRCRrdUVyzUJ3a4LPDpEGx-eXCRoANqbOHSBYN9unixbSmoRJQILcampB_BFEtQRVLXUmFAqTVtenmyTfZ68nOCb7AI0ro5Tw)
-The Interlock Atlanta is a $450 million mixed-use complex with 200k square feet of office, 105k square feet of retail, 145 room hotel, and 367 multi-family units.
https://theinterlockatl.com/property
(https://theinterlockatl.com/assets/images/_1200x675_crop_center-center_none/01_Interlock_Home.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2020, 11:23:14 AM
^Midtown Tampa is a market rate project. The developer did not request financial incentives from what we understand. However, that market and specifically, the Midtown Tampa location, is in a much more advantageous position for what's proposed, than the Lot J site.
What is the surrounding area like for Midtown Tampa compared to Lot J? Looking at the aerial shots without any context, it seems like an odd area for the development
It's in a much better location actually. It's right between Westshore and Downtown Tampa at I-275 and Dale Mabry. Roughly a little over a mile south of Raymond James Stadium.
I feel like I've been hit over the head with these comparisons.
My question is, so what do we do? What can we do?
Likely too late but building this stuff on a non contaminated parking lot at the stadium would immediately drop project infrastructure costs in the range of $50 to $100 million and speed the completion date up by three years. Ask yourself, would you be more supportive if the project was a $350 million one with the public ask being 50% of that number, while getting the exact same thing they've proposed completed in 2023 as opposed to 2026 or 2027? Much of this reeks of the ability to not master plan in a professional manner. Understand the history of what came before today, how those contamination issues were addressed and work around them. There's a sea of asphalt surrounding the stadium. Why do we force ourselves to the most contaminated parking lot? Anyway, shifting Lot J's proposal to a different lot would likely require council to vote this particular deal down. I seriously don't think majority of council has the courage to do so, even if they know we're getting the shaft.