QuoteLAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. —
Brightline and Walt Disney World Resort announced Monday that they have entered into an agreement to build a train station at Disney Springs.
The Brightline station will add a new travel option between Walt Disney World and Orlando International Airport.
It will also connect guests from Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach and planned stations in Aventura, Boca Raton and Port Miami, Brightline officials said.
Brightline's expansion from West Palm Beach to the Orlando International Airport is slated to be completed in 2022.
Full article: https://www.wesh.com/article/disney-brightline-high-speed-rail/34758418
Brightline pact has a Wynwood station on track
https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2020/...wMaYPcd2potoVs
Brightline, Miami-Dade County Agree To Fee For Commuter Rail
https://patch.com/florida/miami/brig...LncJqXsUtKfeSo
Brightline Will Probably Resume Service In 1Q 2021, A Company Executive Says
https://www.thenextmiami.com/when-wi...dq0M1BPEe0RlnU
Nice to see they've been so busy despite the unfortunate news out west.
I wondered where exactly they'd put a station at Disney Springs. It seems like a substantial jump to get from where the CSX/SunRail line is by the airport (assuming they are using part of that line versus 100% new track). Side note, I was surprised to see on Google Maps that there only seem to be 3 tracks at the Orlando station. For some reason I expected at least four.
Going off this map from the Orlando Business Journal:
(https://media.bizj.us/view/img/11885170/screen-shot-2020-10-20-at-10646-pm*750xx1380-776-0-62.png)
It looks like the plan is to build a new line from SunRail along SR 417, break off to follow SR 536, and then cut north from the I-4 interchange to end up somewhere between Typhoon Lagoon and the Team Disney building. Assuming it's accurate. And then that leaves questions of how they go from there to head towards Tampa.
Wynwood has been very insistent on getting a station, so I guess it's nice to see that they're getting covered. Miami-Dade is apparently going to pay $410 million for the first 30 years (including the $50 million upfront), which does seem like a lot put that way. Assuming the price doesn't change for the last 60 (which it most assuredly will) that's another $720 million, putting the total cost at a minimum $1.1 billion over 90 years. Which really doesn't seem that bad on that timescale, but I'm no accountant. Plus $5 billion in economic impact over just 10 years sounds pretty nice.
I get the feeling that resuming service in 1Q '21 is not something they're massively hedging their bets on. It's been said before that there's not that good a reason to open up before Orlando is done. At best, I'd expect if they open before that, it would be in time to open the Aventura station. But maybe they're betting that with a vaccine likely on the way and a chance at normalcy by the summer it's a good idea to start generating revenue again.
If they keep adding stops it'll be a 6 hour journey from Miami to Orlando. I hope they run it like a European schedule and have a direct express train at the beginning and end of the day.
Express and local trains will resolve that issue.
The Disney stop could be a spur off the main track as well, in order to get to Tampa.
That aside, I am curious of the exact alignment. You could tuck the ROW up against the highway, but there's still a lot of highway ramps to work around/under/through. This could get expensive fast.
It appears they'd be using SR 417 and then SR 536 to get to Disney Springs. By not stopping at Meadow Woods, Brightline forces Sunrail to run an east west line between those two key stops. Otherwise, there's no real need for Sunrail to run this line. Without the Meadow Woods to MCO link, it would attract very little ridership.
I can't help but think about how SunRail would have been a great name for (non-express) regional rail service, or even for the HSR system if it had been built back at the beginning of the last decade instead of the beginning of this one. I suppose ultimately Brightline service connecting all of these smaller stations will just be given a name under that umbrella, but still.
Whenever we get around to commuter rail in Jacksonville, I wonder what kind of name we'll give that. First Coast Flyer was a good name, but obviously that's BRT. First Coast Commuter Rail kinda stinks, but then again we actually went ahead with "Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center" when Pond even offered JAXIS, so chances are it'll be that. Maybe "First Coast Connector" if we're feeling good.
To get back on topic, as I said, it looks like the line follows 417 and 536 before breaking off at I-4 and putting the stop in the vicinity of Typhoon Lagoon and Team Disney. A spur seems to be what they've set themselves up for, which I guess isn't completely out there if they ultimately want Tampa-Orlando to be more direct. Looking at the area, it's either going to be tucked up against the highway like at the airport or elevated in the middle like the old HSR proposal. That leads me to wonder if they'd build this new line to true HSR standards (186+) to try and make it easier for them down the road, in the event they want to electrify and upgrade trainsets.
Lake, I would think part of the deal is also giving SunRail access to Disney, which they almost certainly wouldn't build themselves. I imagine there will definitely be a Miami-Orlando express, and perhaps even a PortMiami-Orlando or Disney express.
Originally, it was thought of as Brightline having their own stations at OIA, Meadow Woods and Disney. If that were the case, there would be no need for Sunrail to run an east-west line themselves.
Also, for those mentioning Disney as a spur line to Tampa.....this will be a part of the Tampa segment. Moving forward, they'll go from Disney down to Lakeland and Tampa in the median of I-4. At Disney Springs, I assume they'll try to link in with the large parking garages between the development and I-4.
Would love to see a Brightline run directly from Tampa to Gainesville to Jacksonville in addition to a direct line from Jax to Miami. There appears to be CSX tracks that would approximate that: https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/maps/csx-system-map/ (https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/maps/csx-system-map/).
UF would be an amazing asset to Jax if we could have more direct access to it. Imagine if it was about a 30 to 45 minute ride from Downtown. A direct line to Tampa and Miami by high speed rail would substanitially elevate Jacksonville's economy in my opinion.
Sigh... all this takes visionary thinking and long term planning. We don't have anywhere near that in Jax today. I feel like Charlie Brown... ;D
Brightline on CSX tracks won't be happening. Once we get past Tampa, it will likely be nothing or Cocoa to Jax on the FEC.
^ I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately. Gainesville used to have much more track connecting it to the rest of the state, but of course as passenger rail declined those tracks have been mostly torn up and turned into trails. The one remaining line into Gainesville appears to end a bit distant from UF campus itself, although I suppose RTS could connect a route there if the need arose. Connecting 50,000 college students to the rest of the state would be a boon, and I can almost guarantee that many of them would take the train instead of a bus, plane, or car. (The number of students alone who would trip out to the beach and back would be incredible)
The challenge with the remaining line is that it starts off going the wrong way. Instead of heading east towards the CSX line and Jacksonville, it heads northwest to Alachua before turning and heading towards Starke. A journey by car along the route (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/55+NW+23rd+Ave,+Gainesville,+FL+32609/30.3283852,-81.6706804/@30.0971863,-82.2547385,9.94z/data=!4m29!4m28!1m25!1m1!1s0x88e8a46d195c62ed:0xda09dd73521369dd!2m2!1d-82.3251378!2d29.6733027!3m4!1m2!1d-82.4691889!2d29.7841795!3s0x88e8b0c9ecae261b:0x283068ecbaf38002!3m4!1m2!1d-82.3942902!2d29.8584396!3s0x88e8b205e9426439:0xe8fca48fb79355b!3m4!1m2!1d-82.2189384!2d29.8603434!3s0x88e8aa74b2c532b1:0xede853deaed2e369!3m4!1m2!1d-82.1135705!2d29.9349566!3s0x88e5fdee2914fff5:0xede3072361f3d174!1m0!3e0) (not exactly) shows it taking about an hour and fifty minutes. Assuming the rail line is a little more direct and faster than that perhaps strips 15 minutes, but then likely stops in Alachua, La Crosse, Starke, perhaps Lawtey, and Baldwin probably add that time back and then some on the way to Union Terminal. Building a new line from the existing one out to the CSX line at Waldo and then heading north to Starke and Baldwin would certainly save time, but I don't know if there's a will to build that line.
And I had zero expectation that Brightline would be the one to do it. My presumption was that this idea basically requires a Tallahassee (and Governor) willing to get on board with state-subsidized Amtrak service. Although in that case it'd ironically probably use the same trainsets as Brightline, since those are being built for Amtrak in Illinois and California. A possible alternate idea would be some kind of team-up between JTA/Duval County and RTS/Alachua County, but that seems much less likely.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 24, 2020, 12:53:53 PM
Brightline on CSX tracks won't be happening. Once we get past Tampa, it will likely be nothing or Cocoa to Jax on the FEC.
How about a Sunrail type connection to at least Gainesville - maybe along some road ROW's? One day, this connection should definitely be enhanced to benefit both cities.
The problem is it will cost a ton of money and ridership will be limited. Commuter rail works best when you can take advantage of an existing rail line. If you think the Skyway is a failure, you haven't seen anything yet because it gets a lot more riders per mile and at a cheaper cost now, than Sunrail does in Orlando. Building a new line as far out as Gainesville only makes sense when you already have a decent system in place, IMO. Going one step further, with the mad rush to replace the Skyway with AVs the size of minivans, I question commuter rail working in Jax altogether if JTA is going to be the lead on it. At this point, the only commuter rail route I see being realistic in the next 10-20 years is Jax to St. Augustine and only piggybacking a Brightline investment into a Jax to Miami route on the FEC coming first.
There's no way rail is ever coming back into the heart of Gainesville. The only line left within 20 miles of town is the CSX spur from Alschua and it only goes to 16th St. The rail network in town has been heavily converted to rail trails, which are a huge asset to the city, which isn't going to give those up.
Right, basically what I said. I'm not saying it's
impossible, but it'd require substantial public support and a friendly enough Tallahassee to approve it. With the people there now, it's more likely we'd end up with a brand new turnpike between Gainesville and Jacksonville than rail service.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 24, 2020, 12:53:53 PM
Brightline on CSX tracks won't be happening. Once we get past Tampa, it will likely be nothing or Cocoa to Jax on the FEC.
Assuming they're thinking about/working on Jax by the end of the decade (which is likely, given AAF's original support for it and how Tampa will likely be done by 2025-26), they have spitballed before about eventually expanding towards Atlanta. I don't know how realistic that is, but it's been talked about.
With Biden in and Trump out, it will be interesting to see what happens with federal support for Amtrak and other transit systems. There could be some long proposed, but indefinitely delayed projects end up receiving funding over the next four years. I assume they'll be reallocating the billions being spent on a wall.
a) Congress controls the purse strings. That's where money for choo-choo trains comes from. Is there enough support there to do much?
b) Disney + Brighline is exciting but once you get past the excitement, there's nothing concrete ( note the pun #rimshot ) there.
Quote from: acme54321 on November 24, 2020, 08:00:29 PM
There's no way rail is ever coming back into the heart of Gainesville. The only line left within 20 miles of town is the CSX spur from Alschua and it only goes to 16th St. The rail network in town has been heavily converted to rail trails, which are a huge asset to the city, which isn't going to give those up.
In Minneapolis, they had a rail trail that from day one was done under the premise of adding rail on the corridor someday. That had a shit storm of resistance, opposition and lawsuits to the southwest LRT project. It nearly killed it.
And that's for a place where from day one they said the trail was temp. I can't imagine the resistance to removing what was supposed to be permanent trail.
Regarding commuter rail to Gainesville, I believe the cost to acquire the existing CSX rail corridor and construct Sunrail ended up being over $1 billion. That's a 61-mile corridor that was getting a little over 6,000 riders a day before Covid. The Skyway is 2.5 miles, came in at $184 million and was averaging around 5,000 riders a day in dead DT Jax before JTA shut down the convention center line to construct the JRTC. I don't know in what world, one can logically advocate for +71 mile, new rail corridor (there is no direct existing rail corridor between the cities) to Gainesville from Jax, but view the Skyway as a complete boondoggle.
As I said, it'd be really cool if we could do it. But yeah, it's likely not financially sustainable (not like a new expressway would be either), it would take an absolutely massive amount of public support, and Tallahassee is too hostile to rail to do it.
I remember that the old HSRA Vision Plan called for a corridor basically alongside I-75 through Ocala and Gainesville:
(http://www.ushsr.com/images/470_HSR_Statewide_Map.gif)
But I seriously doubt Brightline is truly interested in following that map. Once they've connected basically all the major cities along the FEC line and to Tampa, it's unclear what they'd really want to do at that point.
This has been Brightline/All Aboard Florida's most extensive vision map for Florida released to date:
(https://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3706194395_GV7wLxP-600x1000.jpg)
What may work for a Jax, Gainesville connection is an express bus with BRT-lite type stops along the way. A good example is the bus line that runs between Denver's Union Station and Boulder. From the JRTC to Gainesville, it would be a pretty straight shot down I-10/US 301/SR 24.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mfnxwb6/0/X3/i-mfnxwb6-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-4Td5psm/0/X3/i-4Td5psm-X3.jpg)
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 25, 2020, 09:07:56 AM
a) Congress controls the purse strings. That's where money for choo-choo trains comes from. Is there enough support there to do much?
We'll see how things play out. Here's Amtrak Joe's dreams for passenger rail investment during his term:
https://www.theurbanist.org/2020/11/09/amtrak-joes-win-elevates-high-speed-rail-hopes/
Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2020, 06:05:25 PM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 25, 2020, 09:07:56 AM
a) Congress controls the purse strings. That's where money for choo-choo trains comes from. Is there enough support there to do much?
We'll see how things play out. Here's Amtrak Joe's dreams for passenger rail investment during his term:
https://www.theurbanist.org/2020/11/09/amtrak-joes-win-elevates-high-speed-rail-hopes/
Nice. Still has to deal with the Senate on that infrastructure bill, though.
The results of that GA runoff will determine what dealing with the Senate will amount too. Regardless, the priorities will change from what they were the last four years. It will be interesting if he can build off of what they pushed during the Obama administration and what that means for Brightline and Amtrak in Florida.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 25, 2020, 07:04:07 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2020, 06:05:25 PM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 25, 2020, 09:07:56 AM
a) Congress controls the purse strings. That's where money for choo-choo trains comes from. Is there enough support there to do much?
We'll see how things play out. Here's Amtrak Joe's dreams for passenger rail investment during his term:
https://www.theurbanist.org/2020/11/09/amtrak-joes-win-elevates-high-speed-rail-hopes/
Nice. Still has to deal with the Senate on that infrastructure bill, though.
yes suddenly the GOP will care about deficits again
Lol and how many billions were dropped on that wall?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2020, 07:24:08 PM
Lol and how many billions were dropped on that wall?
Lol, exactly.
Remember when Rick Scott turned down $2.4 billion for high speed rail in Florida?
Oh yeah. If not for that, the Tampa-Orlando-Miami line would have been done by now. Brightline, Amtrak or whatever will make it to Jax a lot faster if the new administration throws that type of money into Florida.
Not to mention that said line would be true, electrified HSR instead of diesel HrSR, and even then only barely reaching 125 on part of the route.
Problem with that is, is DeSantis any different from Scott in this regard? Brightline existing at all might change things, but I question their lobbying power to prevent the Governor from refusing federal money again.
I think 125 mph is fine for Florida. Especially the Tampa - Orlando link. It's only 80 miles or so between the cities and with stops at Disney and Lakeland, so it likely won't hit 125 anyway. That corridor is better suited for commuter rail, IMO.
Like Scott, DeSantis can be a wildcard but no one is asking the state to operate HSR now. I can't imagine the state blocking Brightline or Amtrak from taking federal money.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 28, 2020, 12:02:37 PM
Oh yeah. If not for that, the Tampa-Orlando-Miami line would have been done by now. Brightline, Amtrak or whatever will make it to Jax a lot faster if the new administration throws that type of money into Florida.
And if Florida accepts it...
I was thinking from the perspective of money being given to speed up the implementation of Brightline or Amtrak. In the case of Brightline, technically we've already accepted by allowing them to operate on public ROW (Beachline and I-4).
We've talked plenty of times about there being multiple levels of service. You don't have to hit every stop every time, and I imagine Brightline is thinking about that in terms of their South Florida route once they have Aventura and Boca Raton open. There's a lot of room for rail in a state of our size.
One thing I noticed in Brightline's press release:
QuoteThe design concept for the proposed station at Disney Springs at Walt Disney World Resort includes a lobby on the ground level, passenger facilities and an upper level train platform.
So the tracks will be elevated.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 28, 2020, 10:28:28 PM
We've talked plenty of times about there being multiple levels of service. You don't have to hit every stop every time, and I imagine Brightline is thinking about that in terms of their South Florida route once they have Aventura and Boca Raton open. There's a lot of room for rail in a state of our size.
Yes, but we also need the ridership to support express, limited stop service between....say DT Tampa and Orlando's airport. The majority of riders on that route are likely going between Orlando's airport and Disney and not directly to Tampa. The last meeting I attended that discussed Brightline, they mentioned that the Tampa link projected low ridership. Disney was needed to make it more viable. There's also a good chance it will be phased (ex. Airport to Disney and then Disney to Tampa). In terms of max speed, we're not losing much maxing out at 125mph vs 150mph.
From what I understand in South Florida, Aventura and Boca Raton will be mainline Brightline stops while the other new stations will be operated as commuter rail:
QuoteToday, the Miami-Dade County Commission unanimously approved an access fee paving the way for new commuter rail system on the Brightline/Florida East Coast Railway corridor. The system would connect the northeast region of Miami-Dade County with possible station locations at 151st Street (FIU), 123rd Street (North Miami), El Portal, the Design District, Wynwood and Little Haiti. The system would be interoperable with Brightline's Aventura and MiamiCentral stations and would ultimately connect with Metrorail, Metromover and Tri-Rail. This project, which has been studied for decades, will provide reliable, convenient transportation to one of the densest areas of Miami-Dade County.
https://www.gobrightline.com/press-room/brightline-and-miami-dade-county-agree-access-fee-new-commuter-rail-system
QuoteOne thing I noticed in Brightline's press release:
QuoteThe design concept for the proposed station at Disney Springs at Walt Disney World Resort includes a lobby on the ground level, passenger facilities and an upper level train platform.
So the tracks will be elevated.
The Disney Springs station will be adjacent to the I-4/SR 536 interchange. The tracks will have to clear I-4 and all of the bridges associated with that interchange.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 28, 2020, 10:57:01 PM
...say DT Tampa and Orlando's airport. The majority of riders on that route are likely going between Orlando's airport and Disney and not directly to Tampa. The last meeting I attended that discussed Brightline, they mentioned that the Tampa link projected low ridership. Disney was needed to make it more viable. There's also a good chance it will be phased (ex. Airport to Disney and then Disney to Tampa). In terms of max speed, we're not losing much maxing out at 125mph vs 150mph.
The lack of ridership between Orlando and Tampa was a key killer for previous HSR project on the I4 corridor.
^I've always thought that if there was a more open approach to upgrading passenger rail between Orlando and Tampa, an Amtrak Pacific Surfliner type corridor service would be more appropriate. The CSX line that Amtrak runs on today travels through where people along the I-4 corridor live. Other than Disney, the rest of I-4 is pretty much suburban sprawl and Green Swamp. There's not much ridership and growth opportunity to pull from on the path to DT Tampa.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 30, 2020, 11:42:45 AM
The lack of ridership between Orlando and Tampa was a key killer for previous HSR project on the I4 corridor.
Not exactly true. The bigger technical issue was that ridership projections between Miami and Orlando were higher, but the implementation costs for that segment were far more. That said, the project was killed primarily because it didn't fit the philosophical belief of Rick Scott and his advisors.