https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-best-books-about-jacksonville-page-3/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-best-books-about-jacksonville-page-3/)
This is a great list and resource. Thanks for sharing. All the books that came to my mind were on it.
Agree that Wayne Wood's book is at the top as it synthesizes both architecture and history into a compelling and wide ranging review of the entire City over time. Kind of an "Antiques Roadshow" approach by focusing on tangible objects and enhancing their meaning with historical backgrounds. A fun way to learn and share history without even trying.
I'd love to see a remake of Wayne Wood's book that takes a deeper dive into the historically Black neighborhoods and architects of the late 19th and early 20th century. I think you can easily fill up a book just a thick as the original.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2020, 12:39:40 PM
I'd love to see a remake of Wayne Wood's book that takes a deeper dive into the historically Black neighborhoods and architects of the late 19th and early 20th century. I think you can easily fill up a book just a thick as the original.
Is that a challenge?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2020, 12:39:40 PM
I'd love to see a remake of Wayne Wood's book that takes a deeper dive into the historically Black neighborhoods and architects of the late 19th and early 20th century. I think you can easily fill up a book just a thick as the original.
Agreed. No doubt Wayne might find other overlooked or newly discovered structures to enlighten his audiences with. And update it for the mid-century and later significant buildings that are now on the chopping block or "coming into their own" as historic. You have highlighted many on the Jaxson if he needs some additional inspiration 8). Don't know if you communicate regularly, but maybe he would be willing to "co-author" with you volume 2 since you have obviously done a lot of research already.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 23, 2020, 01:01:13 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2020, 12:39:40 PM
I'd love to see a remake of Wayne Wood's book that takes a deeper dive into the historically Black neighborhoods and architects of the late 19th and early 20th century. I think you can easily fill up a book just a thick as the original.
Is that a challenge?
It's an opportunity! There's a ton of interesting things still standing in these neighborhoods and the stories behind them are pretty amazing.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Jacksonville-Black-Architecture/i-bRHBwfc/0/67292afc/L/20180204_081728-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-February-2018/i-M6qjQHv/0/343889e9/L/20180210_144154-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-February-2018/i-Xh2n6Kd/0/bfb9e94f/L/20180210_144217-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-February-2018/i-G8wX2PJ/0/2729e9d6/L/20180210_150307-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Jacksonville-Black-Architecture/i-w2CPM5F/0/a5c09585/L/20180204_082048-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Jacksonville-Black-Architecture/i-mQJBwWQ/0/9aeebb36/L/20180204_080029-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-February-2018/i-NgF7Kfx/0/af7316a5/L/20180120_135617-L.jpg)
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 23, 2020, 01:01:26 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2020, 12:39:40 PM
I'd love to see a remake of Wayne Wood's book that takes a deeper dive into the historically Black neighborhoods and architects of the late 19th and early 20th century. I think you can easily fill up a book just a thick as the original.
Agreed. No doubt Wayne might find other overlooked or newly discovered structures to enlighten his audiences with. And update it for the mid-century and later significant buildings that are now on the chopping block or "coming into their own" as historic. You have highlighted many on the Jaxson if he needs some additional inspiration 8). Don't know if you communicate regularly, but maybe he would be willing to "co-author" with you volume 2 since you have obviously done a lot of research already.
We communicate from time to time. I don't have the time these days but I'm happy being a resource for anyone looking to take a deeper dive into this area.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2020, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 23, 2020, 01:01:13 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2020, 12:39:40 PM
I'd love to see a remake of Wayne Wood's book that takes a deeper dive into the historically Black neighborhoods and architects of the late 19th and early 20th century. I think you can easily fill up a book just a thick as the original.
Is that a challenge?
It's an opportunity! There's a ton of interesting things still standing in these neighborhoods and the stories behind them are pretty amazing.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Jacksonville-Black-Architecture/i-bRHBwfc/0/67292afc/L/20180204_081728-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-February-2018/i-M6qjQHv/0/343889e9/L/20180210_144154-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-February-2018/i-Xh2n6Kd/0/bfb9e94f/L/20180210_144217-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-February-2018/i-G8wX2PJ/0/2729e9d6/L/20180210_150307-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Jacksonville-Black-Architecture/i-w2CPM5F/0/a5c09585/L/20180204_082048-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Jacksonville-Black-Architecture/i-mQJBwWQ/0/9aeebb36/L/20180204_080029-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-February-2018/i-NgF7Kfx/0/af7316a5/L/20180120_135617-L.jpg)
Much of this stuff was built at a time when Black residents, architects and builders couldn't walk in the city hall and easily pull a permit. So the sweat equity and hands on craftsmanship put into many of these structures is pretty amazing. The stories of places associated with the likes of MLK, Booker T. Washington, Paul Lawrence Dunbar, Zora Neale Hurston, A. Philip Randolph, etc. are pretty cool as well.
I believe Wayne has a new book coming out soon
Sweet! Can't wait to read it.
Amazing list, so many great choices.
Hard to pick a favorite, but in terms of importance, It was never about a Hot Dog and a Coke by Rodney Hurst remains my GOAT.
Should be required reading in local classrooms.
Does anyone know if local high school curriculum includes much Jacksonville-specific history, or is it the same general U.S. history that's taught everywhere else? In a city that's typically struggled with voter participation, would be cool if schools dedicated a semester or so to actual local history and taught about things like consolidation, civil rights struggles, etc.
Thanks for the shout as well.
Can say with certainty that 100% of my love for this city, its history, and its future comes from discovering this site when I first moved to Jacksonville 15 years ago. I think I would have been out of here a decade ago if not for stumbling across the old MetJax. Sad to see so many of the same mistakes you were writing about way back when with the Frankensteining and mass transit repeating themselves, but really admire the fact that you guys keep pushing forward and fighting the good fight.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 23, 2020, 04:01:11 PM
Amazing list, so many great choices.
Does anyone know if local high school curriculum includes much Jacksonville-specific history, or is it the same general U.S. history that's taught everywhere else? In a city that's typically struggled with voter participation, would be cool if schools dedicated a semester or so to actual local history and taught about things like consolidation, civil rights struggles, etc.
My recollection from growing up here was city history, with highlights that I recall of the Timucuans, Ft. Caroline and the great fire in 1901 (with a field trip to Ft. Caroline) in 3rd grade, state history, mainly the early explorers from Europe (with a field trip to St. Augustine and a booklet on a Florida county drawn from a hat) in 4th grade, U.S.. history/geography (project on one of the 50 states drawn from a hat) in 5th grade and world geography (booklet on a country of the world drawn from a hat) in 6th grade. Junior high included a civics class and other junior and senior high classes focused mainly on more in-depth American and world history and cultures/humanities. In college, we focused on very specific countries or events in history to harvest "lessons learned."
Don't recall much history in school being taught beyond WW II. Of course, back then, there were decades less of that than today 8). We actually lived consolidation and civil rights if one followed the nightly news closely as we did in our household so no reason to teach it in the schools as history then - it was still unfolding in real time.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 23, 2020, 08:39:00 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 23, 2020, 04:01:11 PM
Amazing list, so many great choices.
Does anyone know if local high school curriculum includes much Jacksonville-specific history, or is it the same general U.S. history that's taught everywhere else? In a city that's typically struggled with voter participation, would be cool if schools dedicated a semester or so to actual local history and taught about things like consolidation, civil rights struggles, etc.
My recollection from growing up here was city history, with highlights that I recall of the Timucuans, Ft. Caroline and the great fire in 1901 (with a field trip to Ft. Caroline) in 3rd grade, state history, mainly the early explorers from Europe (with a field trip to St. Augustine and a booklet on a Florida county drawn from a hat) in 4th grade, U.S.. history/geography (project on one of the 50 states drawn from a hat) in 5th grade and world geography (booklet on a country of the world drawn from a hat) in 6th grade. Junior high included a civics class and other junior and senior high classes focused mainly on more in-depth American and world history and cultures/humanities. In college, we focused on very specific countries or events in history to harvest "lessons learned."
Don't recall much history in school being taught beyond WW II. Of course, back then, there were decades less of that than today 8). We actually lived consolidation and civil rights if one followed the nightly news closely as we did in our household so no reason to teach it in the schools as history then - it was still unfolding in real time.
Thanks for sharing!
Great info!
I grew up in Southwest Florida, and besides a quick lesson on Thomas Edison and a visit to his winter home, we got very little local history.
The most chilling literary Jacksonville reference was pretty much in passing. "Alas, Babylon" follows a small group of survivors in central Florida (pre-Disneyfication) after a nuclear attack. A banker among the group wants to contact the Federal Reserve in Atlanta. When told there were no calls (this was when long-distance required an operator) going out of Florida, he demands to be connected to the Branch Federal Reserve Bank in Jacksonville. After some trying, the Operator tells Mr. Banker that, "Jacksonville doesn't seem to be there anymore." Pretty chilling to tween-age me reading this while living in Jacksonville.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 23, 2020, 10:23:51 PM
The most chilling literary Jacksonville reference was pretty much in passing. "Alas, Babylon" follows a small group of survivors in central Florida (pre-Disneyfication) after a nuclear attack. A banker among the group wants to contact the Federal Reserve in Atlanta. When told there were no calls (this was when long-distance required an operator) going out of Florida, he demands to be connected to the Branch Federal Reserve Bank in Jacksonville. After some trying, the Operator tells Mr. Banker that, "Jacksonville doesn't seem to be there anymore." Pretty chilling to tween-age me reading this while living in Jacksonville.
A favorite book from the past... NAS Jax and Mayport are still targets...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 24, 2020, 04:37:06 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 23, 2020, 10:23:51 PM
The most chilling literary Jacksonville reference was pretty much in passing. "Alas, Babylon" follows a small group of survivors in central Florida (pre-Disneyfication) after a nuclear attack. A banker among the group wants to contact the Federal Reserve in Atlanta. When told there were no calls (this was when long-distance required an operator) going out of Florida, he demands to be connected to the Branch Federal Reserve Bank in Jacksonville. After some trying, the Operator tells Mr. Banker that, "Jacksonville doesn't seem to be there anymore." Pretty chilling to tween-age me reading this while living in Jacksonville.
A favorite book from the past... NAS Jax and Mayport are still targets...
You know, I haven't read it. Feels like a failing of both my English major and Florida Man backgrounds.
I would recommend AGAINST Mann's streetcar book. It's plagued by gross inaccuracies and too often resorts to speculation and ideology instead of historical facts.
I have a copy of it. What are some of the gross inaccuracies?
The most glaring one is his embrace of the GM streetcar conspiracy theory crap. His yammering about GM, Flxble + Twin Coach is beyond inaccurate. It's the transportation history equiv of some old man spouting some claim about the election being stolen from Trump. Sad stuff as far as historical accuracy ( total lack of it ). Very sad.
He seems ignorant to the history of the bus.
" In 1920, only 16 traction companies operated supplement bus service, but by 1928, some 361 were offering these exhaust-spewing vehicles".
In 1920 buses would've been brand new and tiny. For example Twin Coach wasn't founded until 1927. Mann either doesn't understand this or, worse, has no interest in sharing this with the reader for important context.
The "exhaust-spewing" crap is , well, crap. It's ideological coloring, not history. He does often falls into that sort of puerile zealotry with this like "The eradicators continued their work...."
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 25, 2020, 09:38:20 AM
The most glaring one is his embrace of the GM streetcar conspiracy theory crap.
so you're saying GM didn't fund a company that bought streetcar lines - and then converted them to bus routes?
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 25, 2020, 09:03:53 AM
I would recommend AGAINST Mann's streetcar book. It's plagued by gross inaccuracies and too often resorts to speculation and ideology instead of historical facts.
I'm sure we'll all take that under advisement.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 25, 2020, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 25, 2020, 09:38:20 AM
The most glaring one is his embrace of the GM streetcar conspiracy theory crap.
so you're saying GM didn't fund a company that bought streetcar lines - and then converted them to bus routes?
GM did not fund a company that bought street car lines. It owned part of National City Lines. NCL was founded ~15-20 years after the first streetlines + even entire systems in America were replaced by buses in the 1920s. At it's peak around WWII NCL owned all or part of @4 dozen of the ~800 streetcar and interburban systems that existed in the US.
GM built diesel engines. GM had bought EMD. It would've been just as much, if not more, GM's financial interest to push and sell lower volume, higher margin streetcars. It would've complimented their EMD diesel-electric locomotive business and dovetailed perfectly with building diesel engines for industrial uses. There are historically known players in the streetcar market but not major players. GM could've easily owned the it.
GM didn't get into the bus manufacturing business until WWII.
Streetcar lines were serverely handicapped by fare limitations cities put on them. Streetcar lines frequently got exclusive franchises and use of city right of way for free, at least day to day free. They were commonly obligated to maintain the street on and inbetween their rails. Between high operating costs, fares kept artificially low by cities and the inability to raise capital, they switched to buses. Most of them, like Jacksonville's did it long before NCL was a twinkle in Sloan's eye.
Every conspiracy theory is based on something that on a casual glance makes sense when alone in a void; when that 3% is all alone it seems to work. Someone say something moving in the swamp and found some weird footprints ergo skunk ape. Or the way the astronauts moved wasn't consontant with being on the moon ergo faked + movie set.
The problem is the 97% overwhelming shows that just not how it worked.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 09, 2020, 01:15:54 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 25, 2020, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 25, 2020, 09:38:20 AM
The most glaring one is his embrace of the GM streetcar conspiracy theory crap.
so you're saying GM didn't fund a company that bought streetcar lines - and then converted them to bus routes?
GM did not fund a company that bought street car lines. It owned part of National City Lines. NCL was founded ~15-20 years after the first streetlines + even entire systems in America were replaced by buses in the 1920s. At it's peak around WWII NCL owned all or part of @4 dozen of the ~800 streetcar and interburban systems that existed in the US.
so yes - GM was associated with a company that owned streetcar lines. Thanks!
I've never done enough research on the streetcar conspiracy to know how much is true, but at any rate it's not the main focus of Bob Mann's book.
Also regardless of what streetcar haters think, I do wish we had fixed transit options here. We'd be better off with it.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 10, 2020, 01:10:02 PM
I've never done enough research on the streetcar conspiracy to know how much is true, but at any rate it's not the main focus of Bob Mann's book.
Also regardless of what streetcar haters think, I do wish we had fixed transit options here. We'd be better off with it.
Don't think there's any streetcar haters, really unsure of where you pulled that imaginary point-of-view from in this thread. As for fixed transit, we have fixed transit in the form of a bus system and the (admittedly not-very-useful) monorail. Streetcar would be cool in a nostalgia kind-of-way, but having ridden the New Orleans streetcars during the heat of summer, the air-conditioned comfort of a bus sure seems better, albeit less charming.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on December 10, 2020, 04:37:30 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 10, 2020, 01:10:02 PM
I've never done enough research on the streetcar conspiracy to know how much is true, but at any rate it's not the main focus of Bob Mann's book.
Also regardless of what streetcar haters think, I do wish we had fixed transit options here. We'd be better off with it.
Don't think there's any streetcar haters, really unsure of where you pulled that imaginary point-of-view from in this thread. As for fixed transit, we have fixed transit in the form of a bus system and the (admittedly not-very-useful) monorail. Streetcar would be cool in a nostalgia kind-of-way, but having ridden the New Orleans streetcars during the heat of summer, the air-conditioned comfort of a bus sure seems better, albeit less charming.
I was talking about the comments from bl8rjaxnative on rail transit and the above book.
Re fixed transit, what I mean is rail or other forms with their own permanent right of way. Buses are good for what they do but you'll never get the strong consistency and headways from something that mixes in traffic. Let alone the development boom. For that type of transit we only have the Skyway. And modern streetcars are a lot nicer than a bus or New Orleans' models.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on December 10, 2020, 04:37:30 PMStreetcar would be cool in a nostalgia kind-of-way, but having ridden the New Orleans streetcars during the heat of summer, the air-conditioned comfort of a bus sure seems better, albeit less charming.
Bus (or clown car) in mixed traffic wouldn't provide 5% of the TOD of an actual fixed transit line, though.
My dream streetcar line in Jax would stretch from Memorial Park in Riverside, past Brooklyn, past the Landing site, straight down Bay Street to the Sports Complex/Met Park.
With a Phase II straight down Main Street into Springfield.
Deploy the clown cars into the urban neighborhoods to act is first/last mile feeders into a streetcar line and the Skyway, and you've got most of the urban core and surrounding neighborhood connected.
Side note, in a post-covid, germ-paranoid world, who in their right mind is going to want to cram into one of these tiny capsules with strangers:
(http://snipboard.io/7PuS4a.jpg)
^That's a potentially big problem with these little AVs. I was thinking the same thing while riding the Skyway to the office yesterday. It will be interesting to see how the design of rolling stock changes due to Covid. In the meantime, Tampa is getting more modern streetcar money....
https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/2020/12/08/florida-will-contribute-67-million-to-extend-tampa-streetcar/
Quote from: Tacachale on December 10, 2020, 11:25:49 PM
Buses are good for what they do but you'll never get the strong consistency and headways from something that mixes in traffic.
There are bus lines today that carry a million passengers per hour. Your claims about buses are completely inaccurate.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 15, 2020, 01:37:43 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 10, 2020, 11:25:49 PM
Buses are good for what they do but you'll never get the strong consistency and headways from something that mixes in traffic.
There are bus lines today that carry a million passengers per hour. Your claims about buses are completely inaccurate.
Every word is true. Nothing that mixes in traffic is going to have the consistency of something with its own right of way. That's effectively a tautology. It's also far less likely to provide a development boost if the routes can change.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 15, 2020, 01:46:27 PM
Every word is true. Nothing that mixes in traffic is going to have the consistency of something with its own right of way. That's effectively a tautology. It's also far less likely to provide a development boost if the routes can change.
Investors as spending $40M $75M, hundreds of millions on projects in this town that have zero transit access. The routes are superfluous.
More importantly, public transit is for those that need transportation but struggle to provide for it. Again, making the mode superflous.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 31, 2020, 02:30:00 PM
More importantly, public transit is for those that need transportation but struggle to provide for it. Again, making the mode superflous.
That's patently false.