https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-wants-the-landing-to-start-with-a-park
Sigh...
So apparently the Landing is no more, we're supposed to call this place Riverfront Plaza now. I'm sure that being the name used on the Curry drawing is just a coincidence.
And now we get to wait until the new year for the RFP to go out, then probably a few more months for designs to be made and submitted, then another month for the DIA to review and choose one, then another RFP for the commercial space, annnnnd it's 2030.
^LOL, the nightmare we warned would happen nearly two years ago is now upon us. As predicted, that demo set that site back a decade. Never discount the benefit of a shorter implementation timeframe when it comes to adaptive reuse of structurally sound public assets, no matter what the public official of the day will try sell you.
Could have easily had a food hall, brewery, event space, cultural attraction and/or other new uses already open in a revamped Landing, adding to the tenants that were already in operation, for less than it cost to buy, raze, dream more and wait. Now we're stuck with spending more money and time doing more studying and design concepts (seriously, how many more of these do we actually need?) and several years before there will be anything decent, funded and constructed on the site. In the meantime, our reality is a pretty dead space in the heart of the city.
It's too late for this site and the Ford at Bay. I'm hoping we don't repeat these mistakes with the MOSH building and land when they vacate.
^With you guys on all this, we should have just partnered with Sleiman on Landing improvements in the same way we're partnering with the Jags, but just looking for some positives in this mess going forward:
1) Even though I'd love to see a larger portion of the property set aside for mixed-use development, at least the DIA wants to ensure that the park element is worthy of the prime location, is soliciting multiple designs, and is letting the public weigh in. Per the article, they absolutely do not want an empty lawn fronting the private pads.
2) I think the DIA is onto something here as well with their plans for parks at Friendship Fountains/St. Johns Park, the Landing, the District, and potentially future development at Berkman II and Met Park/Shipyards. They essentially want to set aside a portion of incremental tax revenue from each development that has to be used solely for annual maintenance and upkeep of that development's respective public greenspace. I think this will go a long way toward helping these parks thrive.
3) Call me an optimist (I totally am), but I think we'll see construction start on the new Landing before we see construction start on anything at the Sports Complex. If the park design RFP goes out on January 1st as planned, we should have a design chosen by the end of Spring that would trigger an RFP for private development of the pads. FDOT starts on the pedestrian ramp removal at the Landing site in February and plans to be wrapped by end of summer. I don't think it's inconceivable that we see major work underway at the Landing by early-to-mid 2022.
Never should have come to this, but hopefully something good happens with the site.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2020, 11:30:56 AM
It's too late for this site and the Ford at Bay. I'm hoping we don't repeat these mistakes with the MOSH building and land when they vacate.
Problem is, little to nothing has changed that would prevent repeating those mistakes in the future. Curry is still in charge, and likely will be until 2023. City Council hasn't substantially changed, although Lot J might be breaking some backs. The DIA might be learning, based on some comments about the Related project by MOSH, but that's not clear yet. JTA is clearly not going to get their act together with a transit system that connects all of this in a rational way.
I worry that we're going to end up blowing half a billion dollars over the next two years in a way that doesn't present a cohesive vision for downtown or secure a serious future with the Jags, then elect Curry's handpicked successor and wonder why things aren't working. And then people will start getting upset at why we're spending so much money downtown and we don't seem to have much to show for it.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2020, 11:48:23 AM
^With you guys on all this, we should have just partnered with Sleiman on Landing improvements in the same way we're partnering with the Jags, but just looking for some positives in this mess going forward:
1) Even though I'd love to see a larger portion of the property set aside for mixed-use development, at least the DIA wants to ensure that the park element is worthy of the prime location, is soliciting multiple designs, and is letting the public weigh in. Per the article, they absolutely do not want an empty lawn fronting the private pads.
Perhaps I'm too close to it. If I look from the window of my downtown office, 15 floors below I see a dead space that didn't have to be this way. I don't see many positives right now, just more of the same. It's all predictable because we've been here before. We spent hundreds of thousands on public engagement and plan by a more than qualified urban waterfront development firm to produce a plan in 2015. Dust it off and implement it. All this says to me is that the public wasted their time and money five years ago.
Quote2) I think the DIA is onto something here as well with their plans for parks at Friendship Fountains/St. Johns Park, the Landing, the District, and potentially future development at Berkman II and Met Park/Shipyards. They essentially want to set aside a portion of incremental tax revenue from each development that has to be used solely for annual maintenance and upkeep of that development's respective public greenspace. I think this will go a long way toward helping these parks thrive.
Yes, maintaining public spaces is a plus. Hopefully more funds can be allocated for maintenance but this is something that should be 100% expected in a thriving city.
Quote3) Call me an optimist (I totally am), but I think we'll see construction start on the new Landing before we see construction start on anything at the Sports Complex. If the park design RFP goes out on January 1st as planned, we should have a design chosen by the end of Spring that would trigger an RFP for private development of the pads. FDOT starts on the pedestrian ramp removal at the Landing site in February and plans to be wrapped by end of summer. I don't think it's inconceivable that we see major work underway at the Landing by early-to-mid 2022.
You're an optimist. Early 2022 is 13 months away. Nothing will be breaking ground that quick when the RFP for what amounts to a conceptual design competition hasn't even gone out. If any transparent amount of public engagement is included, that alone will stretch out the schedule by a couple of months at the minimum. We haven't even addressed allocating a good $50 million in the budget to pay for a decent space, getting council approval to spend that type of money, time associated with DDRB reviews, permitting with various agencies, etc.
QuoteNever should have come to this, but hopefully something good happens with the site.
Something will happen. However, we likely won't be able to enjoy a finished product at this site until close to 10 years after Sleiman's buyout and eviction of the previous tenants. That's just the realist in me speaking. When you go this route, things simply take time, regardless of whether its Jax, Miami or NYC.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 19, 2020, 12:23:59 PM
I worry that we're going to end up blowing half a billion dollars over the next two years in a way that doesn't present a cohesive vision for downtown or secure a serious future with the Jags, then elect Curry's handpicked successor and wonder why things aren't working. And then people will start getting upset at why we're spending so much money downtown and we don't seem to have much to show for it.
I share similar concerns.
So who calls the shots on the old site? The land is owned by the city, correct? That is why there's talk about RFPs in the future, etc, right?
And so DIA in this case is chiming in because they don't want the site neglected until something else occurs?
You've gotta be kidding me. Lori Boyer needs to be fired. They all make me sick.
I just DON'T understand this analogy.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 20, 2020, 11:04:27 AM
So who calls the shots on the old site? The land is owned by the city, correct? That is why there's talk about RFPs in the future, etc, right?
And so DIA in this case is chiming in because they don't want the site neglected until something else occurs?
The whole announcement is old news. This has been the plan ever since Curry and crew created this paper napkin sketch of their vision for the site before buying Sleiman out.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Business/Jacksonville-Landing/i-hPvBnQP/0/87d38d84/L/183444_standard-L.png)
Quote from: thelakelander on November 21, 2020, 12:40:14 AM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 20, 2020, 11:04:27 AM
So who calls the shots on the old site? The land is owned by the city, correct? That is why there's talk about RFPs in the future, etc, right?
And so DIA in this case is chiming in because they don't want the site neglected until something else occurs?
The whole announcement is old news. This has been the plan ever since Curry and crew created this paper napkin sketch of their vision for the site before buying Sleiman out.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Business/Jacksonville-Landing/i-hPvBnQP/0/87d38d84/L/183444_standard-L.png)
Please. Yes, old news. Yes stupid news. Yes I am not over it.
Public Use Riverfront.
Open green space visual scenery.
A rare accomplishment.
Jacksonville's Gracious Front Porch.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 19, 2020, 11:23:40 AM
Sigh...
So apparently the Landing is no more, we're supposed to call this place Riverfront Plaza now. I'm sure that being the name used on the Curry drawing is just a coincidence.
And now we get to wait until the new year for the RFP to go out, then probably a few more months for designs to be made and submitted, then another month for the DIA to review and choose one, then another RFP for the commercial space, annnnnd it's 2030.
Annnnnnnd by then most of us will be near death dirt or pushing up daisies. Oh well, we can't stay here forever.
So it begins.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/documents-show-dia-wants-final-jacksonville-landing-park-design-by-august-2021
QuoteObtained through a Nov. 18 public records request, the draft outlines the process to select three teams to provide 50% of the public park design by April 1, 2021.
The RFP is part of the city's plan to redevelop the former Jacksonville Landing property after the city razed the two-story riverfront shopping mall in May.
The DIA would set an Aug. 31, 2021 deadline for the top-scoring team to submit a final design that includes an estimated construction budget, according to the documents.
As expected, we'll be 3/4 of the way through next year before we even have a final design for the space. Although I imagine it won't look all that different from what Curry's office put out.
QuoteDIA CEO Lori Boyer said in a Nov. 11 interview that she does not want to put the rest of the 6.8-acre site on the market for private development until the preliminary park/plaza design is complete.
And to top it off, we won't even start looking for things to put besides the park space until... I can't tell if that quote means April or September. So I guess we'll have some idea of what the entire place is going to look like... perhaps early 2022?
What they'll hopefully have by mid-2021 is a final conceptual design at best. The article mentioned what will come next in the design phase:
QuoteMayor Lenny Curry's administration budgeted an additional $2 million for the Landing by fiscal year 2021-22 for preengineering, engineering and landscape work on the Landing's public space.
If we're lucky, there will be a final design sometime in 2022-2023. Before construction will start, there will still be a need to allocate construction funds in the budget. For a decent urban park, that could be upwards of $20 to $50 million. St. Pete's Pier cost $92 million for comparison's sake. This is what I said a few days ago. I stand by it, no matter what the DIA and Mayors Office tell local media, based on person experience of being involved in projects like this in multiple cities throughout my career.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2020, 12:27:04 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2020, 11:48:23 AM
3) Call me an optimist (I totally am), but I think we'll see construction start on the new Landing before we see construction start on anything at the Sports Complex. If the park design RFP goes out on January 1st as planned, we should have a design chosen by the end of Spring that would trigger an RFP for private development of the pads. FDOT starts on the pedestrian ramp removal at the Landing site in February and plans to be wrapped by end of summer. I don't think it's inconceivable that we see major work underway at the Landing by early-to-mid 2022.
You're an optimist. Early 2022 is 13 months away. Nothing will be breaking ground that quick when the RFP for what amounts to a conceptual design competition hasn't even gone out. If any transparent amount of public engagement is included, that alone will stretch out the schedule by a couple of months at the minimum. We haven't even addressed allocating a good $50 million in the budget to pay for a decent space, getting council approval to spend that type of money, time associated with DDRB reviews, permitting with various agencies, etc.
Based on this most recent article, we'd be lucky if the engineering level design phase will even be underway by early 2022.
^Keep in mind that, back in 2017, I thought the Trio would be complete, the Landing would be redeveloped, and the Shipyards would be under construction by end of 2020 ;D
Eternal optimist.
I'd have to go back and look it up but I feel we're a year behind with current Landing RFP talk. I recall this was something Hughes and Boyer claimed at one point that would take begin in early 2020.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 24, 2020, 09:22:28 PM
What they'll hopefully have by mid-2021 is a final conceptual design at best. The article mentioned what will come next in the design phase:
QuoteMayor Lenny Curry's administration budgeted an additional $2 million for the Landing by fiscal year 2021-22 for preengineering, engineering and landscape work on the Landing's public space.
If we're lucky, there will be a final design sometime in 2022-2023. Before construction will start, there will still be a need to allocate construction funds in the budget. For a decent urban park, that could be upwards of $20 to $50 million. St. Pete's Pier cost $92 million for comparison's sake. This is what I said a few days ago. I stand by it, no matter what the DIA and Mayors Office tell local media, based on person experience of being involved in projects like this in multiple cities throughout my career.
To top it off, this will likely (even if it shouldn't) be competing with Metro Park (once NPS approves a move) for funding. I get a bad feeling that Jacksonville of all places isn't about to drop big money on two urban riverfront parks, which means one is probably going to get short-changed.
Or worse, that
neither are decent urban riverfront parks.
DIA to start search Jan. 20 for firms to design park at former Jacksonville Landing site
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-start-search-jan-20-for-firms-to-design-park-at-former-jacksonville-landing-site
RFP specifically notes supplementary buildings and features in addition to the two smallish development pads flanking the property, so hopefully the finished product ends up looking like something closer to the 2015 Wakfield Beasley plan designed by experienced professionals, and less like the 2018 Lenny's Lawn plan designed by Brian Hughes on the back of a cocktail napkin.
I'm still wondering why we aren't using that plan we already paid for? Is it because it's a Brown administration and Sleiman associated product?
This stinks like a skunk in a pickle barrel. If they build a park there, it will be permanent, and nothing else will be planned or built there like the Landing, or whatever! It stinks!
Quote from: thelakelander on January 19, 2021, 09:22:18 PM
I'm still wondering why we aren't using that plan we already paid for? Is it because it's a Brown administration and Sleiman associated product?
You never know.
If you're petty enough to sink Sleiman's redevelopment efforts at the Landing, bully him out of his long-term lease, and bulldoze the property in part just to settle a political feud against Sleiman for appearing in a campaign ad with Alvin Brown...
Worth stating the obvious that even Curry's bullying is trash.
He was supposed to TAKE Sleiman's milk money, not give him his own.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/three-national-firms-selected-in-former-landing-park-design-competition
Three firms selected.
Quote• Agency Landscape + Planning LLC of Cambridge, Massachusetts. The company's work includes phase one of the 10-acre Bay Park in Sarasota and the 2015 Downtown Experience plan in Raleigh, North Carolina.
• Olin Partnership Ltd. of Philadelphia. Olin is designing a 1.2-mile stretch of riverfront in Alexandria, Virginia, and in 1991 designed Bryant Park's restoration in New York City.
• Perkins & Will Inc. of Chicago. The company's work includes historic Emancipation Park in Houston and Waterfront Botanical Gardens in Louisville, Kentucky.
Some other notes:
QuoteDIA officials want the firm selected to have its design complete by Oct. 1, then the city will bid construction and break ground on the park in early 2022.
Boyer said Feb. 4 that the timeline would allow for construction costs to be included in the city's 2021-22 fiscal year budget.
DIA officials want the public park under construction before private development begins on two pads which city documents show on the northwest and northeast corners of the site.
So we'd be looking at nearly three years since closing to start construction on the replacement park. Which is still before they actually start working on development.
If they break ground on construction of the park space in early 2022, that will be something. I wonder if there is a cap on the anticipated construction cost?
Only Jacksonville could make such a lengthy process out of grass, trees and benches.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2021, 06:58:53 PM
I wonder if there is a cap on the anticipated construction cost?
It sounds like we'll know on the 26th.
Two of the shortlisted firms have very strong national/global resumes for downtown and waterfront projects. So do a few firms that didn't make the cut.
So what your saying is that we'll select the firm that doesn't?
^ It's the Jacksonville Way.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 21, 2021, 10:34:08 PM
Two of the shortlisted firms have very strong national/global resumes for downtown and waterfront projects. So do a few firms that didn't make the cut.
Agreed, the firms selected and some that didn't make it are very strong. I just hope they are putting their A or B teams on the project with the hopes that this can be a high profile project. A lot of them are design factories and it's an easy $125k for them win or lose.
It's easy to be pessimistic with how things have been going downtown, but these firms should be able to create some very impressive concepts. It's just a matter of how willing Jacksonville will be to fund it. I think the Landing was still salvageable and should have been repurposed before being torn town, but it can EASILY be surpassed with quality design and money thrown at it.
The firms mean pretty much nothing to me. The firm that did the 2015 design was a nationally credible firm as well. All can design and Jax has had plenty of things designed that look great on paper. Call me when we know how many millions the project will cost and we actually allocate and spend the money to build.
Quote from: CityLife on March 22, 2021, 11:26:29 AM
I think the Landing was still salvageable and should have been repurposed before being torn town, but it can EASILY be surpassed with quality design and money thrown at it.
When it's all said and done, I'd argue we'd end up in the same spot....but with years of the site being active in the interim. We could have easily kept the place open, had the same firms come up with designs for the site and ended up with something just as creative and unique and continuously occupied during the transformation.
Stoopid. A park...sheesh.
Render-Ville strikes again!
$10-$15 million is what the city is budgeting for the new Landing park.
To be included in next year's CIP.
So nothing on the level of the new $92 million St. Pete Pier? Closer in the range of Water Works Park in Tampa Heights.
Unsurprising that it's far less than St. Pete. Too busy expanding all the interstates and building pod cars.
Looking at Water Works Park (https://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/tampa-opens-water-works-park-today-and-looks-for-big-things-to-follow/2192536/), I see it's about $7.4 million for 5 acres. "Riverfront Plaza" is supposed to be a minimum of 4.5 acres. It certainly doesn't look terrible (https://www.tampa.gov/document/waterworksparkmap-28821), but I don't know if it screams "iconic urban space." Most of the space does look to be just open greenspace of some kind, similarly to the Mayor's office drawing, and I wonder what that says in terms of activity. I also wonder how much of that money is budgeted for maintenance, because it does us little good to end up with a run-down husk of a park in ten years because we couldn't keep it clean and programmed.
Water Works Park is well maintained but nothing special. Those types of spaces are pretty common in cities, big and small these days. DT Tampa's main urban park is Curtis Hixon Waterfront Park. It was revamped to the tune of $43 million back in 2010. In addition to the cost of that space, the Tampa Museum of Art opened shortly after. Anchoring the park, it cost another $34 million. Another $21 million was needed to build the Children's Museum next to it. That's $98 million spent and I'd still say it isn't an iconic space. The Landing park likely won't be iconic, when compared to what exists in most cities across the country. However, it should be better than the typical Jacksonville park space. It's a high profile project for those involved.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 29, 2021, 10:26:49 PMI wonder how much of that money is budgeted for maintenance, because it does us little good to end up with a run-down husk of a park in ten years because we couldn't keep it clean and programmed.
None.
The DIA plans to use incremental tax revenue, as well as a portion of any property taxes resulting from the proposed private development pads, to fund an annual maintenance budget for the new park.
They're doing the same thing with the Related project (incremental taxes will be preserved for maintenance of Friendship Fountain/St. Johns Park to the estimated tune of about $150k a year), as well as the proposed public parks at the District.
Wouldn't be surprised to see similar arrangements with MOSH/Shipyards park and Jags/Met Park, assuming any of these things actually happen.
First step to Landing redevelopment is below. All I can say is I hope they address the tidal wave of cars leaving after a show at the Times Union Center with either coordinated lights and/or JSO traffic control given the distance and intersection traffic will have to pass through to access the bridge (needs to also be done for access to the Acosta).
Sadly, we don't give the arts the same attention we give the Jags when it comes to traffic management and it hurts business Downtown as a result. I have waited up to almost an hour to get out of this area (and the Arena area) after events/shows. A real cluster. This should also be addressed by Curry's Downtown "Fixers."
Following per FDOT:
Quote
Independent Drive Ramp to Main Street Bridge to Close Permanently April 15
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. – The Independent Drive ramp to the southbound Main Street Bridge will close permanently April 15. The closure will allow crews to demolish the ramp.
Motorists on Independent Drive seeking to travel south on the Main Street Bridge will continue past the ramp, turn left on Bay Street and turn left on the Main Street Bridge and continue toward their destination, as shown in the map below.
During construction, the west pedestrian sidewalk of the bridge will be closed. Pedestrians will be detoured to the east pedestrian access to the bridge. Signage will be in place to assist roadway users and pedestrians.
Superior Construction was awarded the $584,000 project, which is expected to be completed in summer 2021, weather and unforeseen circumstances permitting.
Couple of details from the DIA's Q&A with the three chosen finalists, via the JBJ (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/04/01/dia-discusses-second-phase-landing-rfp.html)
Quote"You may put a significant amount of the budget into the art piece," Boyer said. "We are looking for something that is memorable and recognized as 'Oh, that's Jacksonville.'"
A firm budget for the project has not been set, but the city has been using $12 million as a placeholder.
The aspect of the design that makes it iconic could be something that frames the view of the site from the river or toward the river or an architectural or art piece, Boyer said.
"Let me throw out an example: your art piece looks like the Chicago Bean, but it's the Jacksonville version of something," Boyer said. "It wouldn't necessarily be tall and lighted and meet their criteria for the beacon element, but you could suggest that be placed on the adjacent site."
One developer noted that a "recognizable" art piece is a "pretty commanding question to answer" without knowing a final budget. Boyer responded that a project that proposes something outside of the placeholder budget would be evaluated accordingly.
"We want this to be a memorable space, but if a competing team happens to come in with a very memorable space with a wonderful piece of art that maybe costs $3 million or $5 million and gets us there, that will be part of the evaluation," Boyer said.
Boyer also made recommendations for the firms moving forward, including the nature of their designs related to the riverfront. She said that due to the bulkhead replacement, she recommended developers not design something that goes over the water that would significantly alter the existing dock or bulkhead.
Hmmmmm.
So we're looking for a memorable space, with an iconic design, and a preference for something that looks nice from the river, acts as a lit beacon, and instantly screams "Jacksonville, Florida."
Not easy to do, but I
think it's possible.
Forgive my art skills, I'm more of a numbers guy, but I think something like this just might work to fulfill that criteria:
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
(https://www.jacksonville.com/galleryimage/LK/20191204/PHOTOGALLERY/120409991/PH/0/1/PH-120409991.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/55/bd/ea55bd00f812b771b52cb70bcbdf478d.jpg)
The horse is dead, Ken. No need to keep beating it
Sorry KenFSU, you can't build something like the Landing for $12MM to $15MM. We'll also need more than a Jacksonville version of Chicago's Bean (which cost $23MM itself). I hope people pay more attention to Millennium Park and the sum of its parts than an isolated piece of art work. It will be a challenge to design a space that's really "iconic" for such a low budget. Anyway, wish them well.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on April 02, 2021, 09:33:52 AM
The horse is dead, Ken. No need to keep beating it
Oh, it's been dead for a year.
It's just baffling to me that what Boyer is describing as being a best-case scenario for this new public space is pretty much
exactly what Boyer voted to spend $23 million to demolish.
Also baffling that we're speaking of this space as our crown jewel for redevelopment, yet constraining the construction budget to roughly
half of the removal budget, including public art.
Equally baffling that - just like we did with Lot J - we're putting the cart before the horse in terms of removing a genuinely useful, popular ramp that serves as a genuine amenity for pedestrians before we even have a site plan for the new Landing or any agreements for private development.
Desperately hoping for a grand slam with the new Landing, but doesn't change the fact that this entire plan was devised on the back of a napkin by the mayor's office, with no public oversight or outside expertise, and has been loyally executed by the DIA - right down to the name and limited private development presence - with no questions asked.
I honestly do try to not be pessimistic, and I think there is some progress with the blocking the tackling, but between the new Landing, the new Skyway, parking decisions, and continued demolition, it's kind of scary how little has been learned from past failures.
Decisions we make on these projects today are going to dictate what our downtown looks like 20 years from now.
And when you look at the budgets for things like the Landing and the Emerald Trail vs. things like U2C and this goofy jail proposal that is still floating around, I don't know.
^Ultimately, some personnel changes in city hall will be needed. History has proven time and time again that downtown revitalization decisions will be tainted and influenced by things that simply aren't needed at the expense, but added and implemented via personal opinion of decision makers that may not be best qualified to make said decisions. Don't become a cheerleader or get overly optimistic with the future without better understanding the past or seeing change with that dynamic. With that said, try not to be pessimistic but definitely be realistic and don't hesitate to slap the big cups of kool aid being passed out, right out of people's hands.
From a realistic perspective, it's the non sexy, non newspaper headline grabbing policy stuff that is worthy of celebration. Like the incentives update to the historic preservation trust fund. We haven't had the same number of demolitions proposed in the Northbank since that went through. If anything, we should extend the Downtown National Register Historic District to cover adjacent historic areas like LaVilla, so those property owners will have an inclusive and equitable opportunity as well.
In addition, if the gas tax is passed, the local revenue generated from the move is the transformative and game changing element. Yet, there's still tons of work to do to make sure we're not wasting the revenue on foolish projects while not properly funding the right projects. The Landing site would be an example of this. If we want this to be iconic, it's way too early to restrict the cost to something that peer cities throw into regular neighborhood parks. If we want a Bean, then we need to know the cost of the Bean and be willing to throw a similar number into the budget for that item. If we want an iconic park, we need to take a look at spaces we consider to be iconic and be willing to provide funding in a similar price range for a space of our own.
If we're not willing to drop $50MM to $100MM, then let's stop using the word iconic, because we simply aren't getting there if that definition applies to a comparison of similar spaces in peer communities. By the same token, it's also foolish to throw hundreds of millions into moving the jail, when those funds could literally 100% buildout a quality of life project like the Emerald Trail, restore Springfield Park, resolve the convention center dilemma now or give you a real centralized iconic public park to cluster around.
I'd like to start a movement to relocate the orange T-rex statue to the Landing site. This would be the strategic silver bullet move that checks all the boxes.
✔ iconic
✔ unique
✔ public art
✔ engaging
✔ sense of place
✔ pedestrian scale
✔ regional attraction
✔ catalyst for investment
✔ surprisingly low upfront costs
Beach Boulevard sucks. This needs to be it's new home.
Quote from: fsu813 on April 07, 2021, 01:14:24 PM
I'd like to start a movement to relocate the orange T-rex statue to the Landing site. This would be the strategic silver bullet move that checks all the boxes.
✔ iconic
✔ unique
✔ public art
✔ engaging
✔ sense of place
✔ pedestrian scale
✔ regional attraction
✔ catalyst for investment
✔ surprisingly low upfront costs
Beach Boulevard sucks. This needs to be it's new home.
Not gonna lie, I don't hate this idea.
Not necessarily for the Landing, but it'd be fun to have the T-Rex on the river somewhere for all the reasons you listed above.
^Might add that a dinosaur is a metaphor for the current state of Downtown ;D.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 08, 2021, 12:07:47 AM
^Might add that a dinosaur is a metaphor for the current state of Downtown ;D.
Part of the reason why I love it ;D
At least we can blame the endless rubble, blighted buildings, and countless surface lots on an extinction event.
Should make it a Godzilla statue and we can just blame him for razing half of downtown....
I think Godzilla is Curry's spirit animal
Quote from: fsu813 on April 07, 2021, 01:14:24 PM
I'd like to start a movement to relocate the orange T-rex statue to the Landing site. This would be the strategic silver bullet move that checks all the boxes.
✔ iconic
✔ unique
✔ public art
✔ engaging
✔ sense of place
✔ pedestrian scale
✔ regional attraction
✔ catalyst for investment
✔ surprisingly low upfront costs
Beach Boulevard sucks. This needs to be it's new home.
✔ Rename the former Landing site "JURASSIC PARK"
These brilliant ideas are all free of charge, btw. I need to be on someone's marketing payroll.
Agency Landscape + Planning had a tent at the Jax River Jams concert last night and were engaging people on what type of amenities they'd like to see in a park at the former Landing site. You can call or text 539-3826 to leave recommendations
In response to Hidden Jacksonville's post on Instagram regarding the former Landing site, DDRB board member Matt Brockelman commented:
QuoteThere is a big announcement coming June 1 that encompasses this site as well as the riverfront areas on the east side of the Main Street Bridge. I think a lot of people following this will be excited. Stay tuned
Should be interesting...
Hopefully it won't get too overshadowed by the statewide political announcement that same day.
And hopefully whatever it is makes some degree of sense.
And is reasonable.
And happens.
What's strange - and classicly Jacksonville - is that three design firms have been given a largely blank space to work with and have until the end of June to finish concepting.
Would be pretty batty to undercut them at this point with a pivot in direction.
Hoping it's either an announcement having to do with a solid, quality plan for the private development pads, or news of a major donation for the park space.
Not at all suggesting this is it, but there have been some rumors lately that the Jags have started to warm slightly to the idea of development outside of the immediate sports complex.
Steve Atkins is making a big presentation on the first about "Riverfront Jacksonville: A comprehensive $1B+ master plan". I'm guessing that announcement will include something for the landing site.
Please forget about Parks and Park space. I hope it has to do with a solid entertainment type of development with residential and some office. Another destination and "place to go" like the Landing was, but better and have more to offer. I know, pipe dream(s), and, it will take a while if this has nothing to do with a park or park space (and I hope not).
First Coast News just had a story about how the Former Landing Site is now a field of brown weeds and dirt. The City says they "maintain" the lot 24 times a year, and did not respond to questions from FCN about whether there is an irrigation system. The reporter said she spent time walking around the lot and did not see any sprinkler heads.
Who could have predicted that the City wouldn't maintain the lot, and it would turn into dirt and/or weeds? [well, me for one]
I worked from the office yesterday. It did look pretty brown with large areas of dirt. The patch of dirt was where the stage was at for the free concerts in April/May.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 26, 2021, 12:30:56 PM
Steve Atkins is making a big presentation on the first about "Riverfront Jacksonville: A comprehensive $1B+ master plan". I'm guessing that announcement will include something for the landing site.
You got any more info on this, Captain?
In terms of where/when?
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2021, 07:06:29 AM
I worked from the office yesterday. It did look pretty brown with large areas of dirt. The patch of dirt was where the stage was at for the free concerts in April/May.
Post-installation, the city only budgeted $4,000 a year to maintain Riverside Plaza.
Most of that is labor to cut the grass.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 27, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 26, 2021, 12:30:56 PM
Steve Atkins is making a big presentation on the first about "Riverfront Jacksonville: A comprehensive $1B+ master plan". I'm guessing that announcement will include something for the landing site.
You got any more info on this, Captain?
In terms of where/when?
Florida Theatre. Doors at 9:30. Presentation at 10 am.
^Thanks!
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 26, 2021, 11:17:28 PM
First Coast News just had a story about how the Former Landing Site is now a field of brown weeds and dirt. The City says they "maintain" the lot 24 times a year, and did not respond to questions from FCN about whether there is an irrigation system. The reporter said she spent time walking around the lot and did not see any sprinkler heads.
Who could have predicted that the City wouldn't maintain the lot, and it would turn into dirt and/or weeds? [well, me for one]
Are you surprised? Doesn't surprise me at all.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 27, 2021, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 27, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 26, 2021, 12:30:56 PM
Steve Atkins is making a big presentation on the first about "Riverfront Jacksonville: A comprehensive $1B+ master plan". I'm guessing that announcement will include something for the landing site.
You got any more info on this, Captain?
In terms of where/when?
Florida Theatre. Doors at 9:30. Presentation at 10 am.
Was that today (Thursday, 5/27)? Anyone have a report?
^Per the Good Captain, it's 6/1!
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 27, 2021, 07:28:33 PM
^Per the Good Captain, it's 6/1!
Thanks, guess I didn't scroll back far enough.
With the Skateboarding World Championship scheduled for Lenny's Lawn in November and DVI looking at an ice skating rink through early January 2022, doesn't look like there's going to be any real urgency to get construction moving on this space after the design competition is complete later this month.
Very predictable outcome. Not surprising at all.
Florida ice skating at the NOGO hole
The ice skating thingamajig will be world class international media coverage and participation; right? All eyes both national and international will be on beautiful downtown Jacksonville with the event being hosted at "Lenny's Lawn;" LOLOL...just playing.
I'm curious how well that ice rink would hold up when it hits 77F on Jan 3rd.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/downtown-vision-inc-says-a-pop-up-ice-rink-could-come-to-riverfront-plaza (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/downtown-vision-inc-says-a-pop-up-ice-rink-could-come-to-riverfront-plaza)
The JDR article suggests DVI is trying to bring the ice rink in as an annual tradition. "If not this year, then next year." Guess they're going to have to figure out how that fits into a permanent world-class riverfront park.
On its own, it actually sounds like a cool idea to me. They have a performing stage and weekend bar sketched out, so it could be a nice little attraction. Execution is going to be everything, I suppose.
Why? What for? I don't care whether it's "pop up" or not, but an ice skating rink in downtown Jacksonville? And on the riverfront on prime property/real estate to boot. We're Jacksonville not Caribou Maine. Southerners and Floridians mostly live in Jax not Northerners last I checked or known. I don't get it. Who in hell comes up with these lain brain ideas?! Certainly not Southerners, or Floridians, probably some pompous butt heads from up North who moved or relocated here and now are integral members of our City Hall and the Mayor's Administration (or Lori Boyer's transplants...don't know where she's from). But this needs to stop. If anything else other than an Office Tower or Entertainment or Shopping Complex gets built there, ensure that it stays within the theme and confines of the South, Florida, Palm Trees, St. John's River, our heritage, our roots, and our history!!!
And oh yeah, in case everyone has forgotten or are not aware, we have a park downtown and in the urban core; WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER ONE!!!
Lastly, and yes, Tampa has an ice rink. But they have more transplants from up north and everywhere else, and tourists, and snowbirds, and NORTHERNERS to justify building such an abomination in their downtown. We need to keep it real here in Jacksonville as I mentioned two posts ago. Am I upset? Yes I am.
There will be presentations from the three design firms Thursday, June 24 to the DIA selection committee.
Quote from FB announcement
Quote
The City of Jacksonville will host a public meeting for the Northbank Lawn/Riverfront Plaza FKA Jacksonville Landing Design Competition (P-01-21)
Three firms will present their design proposals and a selection committee will evaluate them. Meeting is open members of the public who may provide input via public comments after each one.
LOCATION:
Jacksonville Public Library-Main Library/Downtown
303 North Laura Street
Multipurpose Room (located in the Conference Center)
By Zoom:
Meeting ID: 870 9609 0165
Passcode: 252453
Schedule:
8:30 a.m. - 10:35 a.m. Agency Landscape + Planning
12:00 p.m. - 2:05 p.m. Olin Partnership
3:00 p.m. - 5:05 p.m. Perkins&Will
Each firm will be allowed sixty (60) minutes for presentation time followed by sixty (60) minutes for questions and answers. Twenty (20) minutes will be allowed for public comments after each design firm's presentations.
Link to Meeting Notice (PDF) can be found on this page: https://dia.coj.net/
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2021, 01:32:22 PM
There will be presentations from the three design firms Thursday, June 24 to the DIA selection committee.
Quote from FB announcement
Quote
The City of Jacksonville will host a public meeting for the Northbank Lawn/Riverfront Plaza FKA Jacksonville Landing Design Competition (P-01-21)
Three firms will present their design proposals and a selection committee will evaluate them. Meeting is open members of the public who may provide input via public comments after each one.
LOCATION:
Jacksonville Public Library-Main Library/Downtown
303 North Laura Street
Multipurpose Room (located in the Conference Center)
By Zoom:
Meeting ID: 870 9609 0165
Passcode: 252453
Schedule:
8:30 a.m. - 10:35 a.m. Agency Landscape + Planning
12:00 p.m. - 2:05 p.m. Olin Partnership
3:00 p.m. - 5:05 p.m. Perkins&Will
Each firm will be allowed sixty (60) minutes for presentation time followed by sixty (60) minutes for questions and answers. Twenty (20) minutes will be allowed for public comments after each design firm's presentations.
Link to Meeting Notice (PDF) can be found on this page: https://dia.coj.net/
Is the general public welcome to this? Is that conference room big enough to accommodate the general public? I would like to attend and get a feel of the City Leaders, Design Firms, etc., and see how regimented and organized these meetings are, and what is said and the responses from the City. Someone please advise. Thanks.
Yes the general public can attend.
The library's website doesn't mention the size or capacity of the meeting room - just the rental rates.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2021, 04:58:17 PM
The library's website doesn't mention the size or capacity of the meeting room - just the rental rates.
If it's the room I recall at ground level, it appears it could accommodate at least a couple of hundred persons in auditorium style seating.
Quote from: heights unknown on June 14, 2021, 01:26:39 PM
Lastly, and yes, Tampa has an ice rink. But they have more transplants from up north and everywhere else, and tourists, and snowbirds, and NORTHERNERS to justify building such an abomination in their downtown. We need to keep it real here in Jacksonville as I mentioned two posts ago. Am I upset? Yes I am.
guys - it would be a temporary installation a few months a year - and given that the "cold" months have fewer festivals, this makes perfect sense!
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 14, 2021, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2021, 04:58:17 PM
The library's website doesn't mention the size or capacity of the meeting room - just the rental rates.
If it's the room I recall at ground level, it appears it could accommodate at least a couple of hundred persons in auditorium style seating.
you can also attend via Zoom
https://www.coj.net/departments/finance/docs/procurement/special-psec-agenda,-june-24,-2021.aspx
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 15, 2021, 02:25:20 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 14, 2021, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2021, 04:58:17 PM
The library's website doesn't mention the size or capacity of the meeting room - just the rental rates.
If it's the room I recall at ground level, it appears it could accommodate at least a couple of hundred persons in auditorium style seating.
you can also attend via Zoom
https://www.coj.net/departments/finance/docs/procurement/special-psec-agenda,-june-24,-2021.aspx
Thanks "Tuf," I might just ZOOM in on the conference rather than make a physical show.
Southern city, few yankees, dowtown ice rink
https://knoxvilletn.gov/government/city_departments_offices/special_events/knoxvilles_holidays_on_ice
So the competition design presentations are today, with a Zoom meeting scheduled from 8:30 am to 5:30 pm. The meeting details were posted, but if you try to join the meeting, you get an error in Zoom saying the host has locked the meeting.
I guess you're only allowed to engage with the process as a citizen if you can afford to take an entire day off work to attend this meeting.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 24, 2021, 09:18:04 AM
So the competition design presentations are today, with a Zoom meeting scheduled from 8:30 am to 5:30 pm. The meeting details were posted, but if you try to join the meeting, you get an error in Zoom saying the host has locked the meeting.
I guess you're only allowed to engage with the process as a citizen if you can afford to take an entire day off work to attend this meeting.
Apparently you have to login before or after the actual presentations, can't join during. Three seperate presentations today.
I ran into the "locked" message earlier, but tried again a few minutes ago, and am listening to the Q&A.
Thanks! I was able to get in for the last half of the Q&A as well. The overview they had on the Q&A slide looked nice; I would've liked to catch the presentation. DIA board reactions seemed very positive overall.
Would be nice if they made a recording of the video available to the public after the event for those that couldn't watch live.
The Zoom feed says it is being recorded. I hope when they post it, they break it into separate recordings for each team.
https://www.news4jax.com/video/news/2021/06/24/watch-live-3-design-teams-present-proposals-for-former-site-of-jacksonville-landing/
Didn't get to follow closely, but Perkins and Will's plan in particular was pretty epic.
Looking forward to watching the full presentations.
They said they were going to try to have links up on the COJ Procurement site in the next (work) day or so. If it were me, I'd put the links on the DIA site, too. But, they didn't ask me.
Olin Partnership (out of Philadelphia):
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/riverfront-plaza-design-competition-olin-partnership-ltd-jax-park#photo-12
Agency Landscape + Planning (Camrbridge Mass):
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/riverfront-plaza-design-competition-agency-landscape-planning#photo-1
Perkins & Will (Chicago):
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/riverfront-plaza-design-competition-perkins-and-will-one-park-jax
I like the Agency Landscaping and Planning from Cambridge, MA rendering best.
Perkins and Will would be my second choice; they are not too far off from Agency Landscaping; might be a tie between the two. I like them both but Agency Landscaping is my 1st preference though by the slimmest of margins.
Based on the renderings, which might not be the only way to evaluate but is all we have for now, I favor the Perkins & Will design. Seems to me to be more engaging, a wider range of features, an iconic sculpture and a bit more greenery/shade trees.
The other designs are OK but don't seem as inspired to me.
To me Perkins and Will and it's not even close.
On quick glance, I really like the Perkins and Will design. They hit on a lot of the concepts I mentioned as seemingly no brainer ideas (beer garden, splash pad/kids play area, heavily shaded outdoor dining, and open event space) https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36872.msg510446.html#msg510446
But they took it to the next level with the Jax sculpture and some other features. Like I've said along, it will be very easy for these firms to design something far better for the general public than The Landing. Just a matter of whether or not the City will fund it. IMO, a design like this will be far more impactful than a Four Seasons in improving Jax's reputation and drawing people downtown. Really nicely done.
Just looking a the renderings, Perkins & Will is the clear frontrunner to me.
Both from a design perspective and from checking the boxes in the RFP.
I think it's pretty stunning.
I also think it might be the easiest to get public buy-in on.
Which will be necessary with a $23 to $30 million price tag (depending on whether the sculpture is brushed metal or a mirrored finish).
Presentations/videos:
https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?folderid=0d9f2fc4345b241aa93f899407aa76fb8&authkey=AeypNIdOUXA8KM2rBjpHKoo&e=V8VYtv
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 07:48:18 PM
Presentations/videos:
https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?folderid=0d9f2fc4345b241aa93f899407aa76fb8&authkey=AeypNIdOUXA8KM2rBjpHKoo&e=V8VYtv
Thanks for sharing. As a planner that's been involved in some cool waterfront dining and placemaking projects, I'm typically able to pick holes in the process or design concepts of projects like this, but after looking through Perkins & Will's PPT
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/74482335.jpg)
^100 percent agree.
Video is STUNNING for P&W too.
I don't think it's even close.
Hope to see it happen.
Quote from: CityLife on June 24, 2021, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 07:48:18 PM
Presentations/videos:
https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?folderid=0d9f2fc4345b241aa93f899407aa76fb8&authkey=AeypNIdOUXA8KM2rBjpHKoo&e=V8VYtv
Thanks for sharing. As a planner that's been involved in some cool waterfront dining and placemaking projects, I'm typically able to pick holes in the process or design concepts of projects like this, but after looking through Perkins & Will's PPT
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/74482335.jpg)
P.S.
As a marketer who builds a lot of decks for national brands, I can't pick any holes in the PPT either.
Frankly, I don't know if I've ever seen a better deck for a Jacksonville project.
This is next level compared to what we typically see here.
Feels like each one is trying to pack A LOT into a relatively small area. The former Landing site doesn't have to be everything to everyone. We have a gigantic amount of other vacant riverfront space, and a significant portion of it will likely be park/public space. It's almost as if we need a master plan, so parks and their purposes aren't planned in silos.....
I still need to finish going through the three concepts but I did catch the Perkins + Will presentation. What was shown will cost more than $30 million. Not saying that's a bad thing, because all of them will end up costing more than what's being said right now at the conceptual stage. In general, from my quick glance, all these projects pretty much offer the same uses and activities, just in different shapes and locations within the space. I will say that the Olin concept seems more like a poor man's version of what's already featured on the St. Pete Pier. With that said, whatever is selected will be fine. Drawing renderings and pretty pictures has never been a problem in this town. Getting something decent funded, built and maintained has and remains our challenge. Any idea of how much the Agency concept is estimated to cost at this point?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 24, 2021, 08:44:18 PM
I still need to finish going through the three concepts but I did catch the Perkins + Will presentation. What was shown will cost more than $30 million. Not saying that's a bad thing, because all of them will end up costing more than what's being said right now at the conceptual stage. In general, from my quick glance, all these projects pretty much offer the same uses and activities, just in different shapes and locations within the space. I will say that the Olin concept seems more like a poor man's version of what's already featured on the St. Pete Pier. With that said, whatever is selected will be fine. Drawing renderings and pretty pictures has never been a problem in this town. Getting something decent funded, built and maintained has and remains our challenge. Any idea of how much the Agency concept is estimated to cost at this point?
Estimated costs from the three groups were:
$27 million for Olin.
$23-30 million for P+W.
$3.2 million per "acre of developed land" for Agency.
All three had annual maintenance at $500k to $1 million.
I didn't feel the Olin concept prioritized urban examples of activation. Relegating food and drink to the private pads without much of a concept there seemed like a punt on a critical component. The eco stuff was pretty cool, but they came off as a distant third to me.
I think the Agency concept is pretty good, but the art is definitely not rising to an iconic level.
The P&W concept is the most complete and the art is really well done. I LOVE the civic building concept on the one development pad, as well as the beer garden. Both are homeruns. I'd cast my vote for this one as well.
I don't think any of the three will give us one of the great, iconic waterfront parks in the country, but we'll have an asset and attraction for our residents and visitors to enjoy and be proud of. It's worthy of significant investment.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 08:31:39 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 24, 2021, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 07:48:18 PM
Presentations/videos:
https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?folderid=0d9f2fc4345b241aa93f899407aa76fb8&authkey=AeypNIdOUXA8KM2rBjpHKoo&e=V8VYtv
Thanks for sharing. As a planner that's been involved in some cool waterfront dining and placemaking projects, I'm typically able to pick holes in the process or design concepts of projects like this, but after looking through Perkins & Will's PPT
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/74482335.jpg)
P.S.
As a marketer who builds a lot of decks for national brands, I can't pick any holes in the PPT either.
Frankly, I don't know if I've ever seen a better deck for a Jacksonville project.
This is next level compared to what we typically see here.
Agreed on it being next level. Just watched the video and you are right, it is stunning. Earlier in the thread I mentioned that I hope some of the firms put their A teams on the project in hopes that it will be a high profile project for them. Looks like they treated this as a portfolio building, legacy type project that they put a lot of time and effort into.
In looking at the other PPT's, I do like some of the ecological concepts Olin incorporated. Agency's design already looks dated.
This one seems like a no brainer.
Definitely some lovely presentations. And I see the broad consensus appears to surround the Perkins & Will proposal. Hopefully the DIA agrees.
The question I'd ask is, seeing now that stuff like Atkins' Riverfront Jax proposal exists, how could we potentially reconcile those proposed designs? Suppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?
Is the city taking the Atkins proposal seriously?
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 24, 2021, 09:11:54 PM
I don't think any of the three will give us one of the great, iconic waterfront parks in the country, but we'll have an asset and attraction for our residents and visitors to enjoy and be proud of. It's worthy of significant investment.
What I do love is that all of these parks in various stages of renderings and planning incorporate public art.
If the P+W concept wins, and the centerpiece JAX piece is installed, that'd be really cool.
If the Southbank RiversEdge park that is scheduled to start construction after bulkhead repairs are completed includes the 50-foot interactive sculpture from Marc Fornes that the DIA and Preston Hollow have commissioned, that'd be really cool.
If Metro Park incorporates showcase public art, as Mark Lamping says it will, and if the new park that the DIA is negotiating a land swap for Kids Campus for happens and includes the signature public art that Lori Boyer has mentioned, that'd be really cool.
Individually, the public art is nice.
But collectively, having that network of riverfront parks with showcase public art, complimented by Friendship Fountain at St. Johns Park, the Lone Sailor statue on the SB riverwalk, etc. kind of would give Jacksonville something rather unique for its riverfront (e.g. lots of parks, each having a central showcase "thing").
Would be even nicer if the private sector funded the art 8)
Couple of things I love about the "Jax" art piece included in the P+W proposal:
1) In a city that tries so hard to be edgy with nonsense garbage like NoCo and Soba, the "JAX" shorthand of Jacksonville is about as authentic and organic as it gets. It's modern. It distances our identity from Andrew Jackson. Locals actually use it. It's a genuine thing, and I really love how we've started to own it more and more in recent years.
2) The design pays tribute to the river, while also literally reflecting it if we go for a mirrored finish.
3) From a marketing and tourism perspective, it gives Jacksonville our "thing" for tourist photo ops. St. Louis has the arch. Hollywood has the sign. Chicago has the bean. I spent the last four days in Nashville tripping over teenage Instagrammers trying to get their photos with the wings. Might seem gimmicky, but you don't know how many hoteliers I've heard ask for something like this. And it'd be fantastic to have it right in the heart of the CBD to draw in some folks who would otherwise spend their entire stay at the beach.
I also love how the P+W proposal leaves enough flex space to allow some of this stuff that DVI is currently doing (ice skating, skateboard championship, concerts, etc.) to still potentially fit. Not sure the Olin concept does.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 09:56:46 PM
3) From a marketing and tourism perspective, it gives Jacksonville our "thing" for tourist photo ops. St. Louis has the arch. Hollywood has the sign. Chicago has the bean. I spent the last four days in Nashville tripping over teenage Instagrammers trying to get their photos with the wings. Might seem gimmicky, but you don't know how many hoteliers I've heard ask for something like this. And it'd be fantastic to have it right in the heart of the CBD to draw in some folks who would otherwise spend their entire stay at the beach.
I couldn't envision anything that would accomplish this--probably why I'm not in a creative profession--but yes, the JAX accomplishes what you state. In fact, the artist's portion of the presentation was extensive and downright compelling. 12-18 million for the art installation is WELL worth it for that quality. I prefer it to Chicago's bean, personally. And the merchandising angle was not only politically savvy, it legitimately looked good (although the Vegas replica might be a bit much).
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 09:02:38 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 24, 2021, 08:44:18 PM
I still need to finish going through the three concepts but I did catch the Perkins + Will presentation. What was shown will cost more than $30 million. Not saying that's a bad thing, because all of them will end up costing more than what's being said right now at the conceptual stage. In general, from my quick glance, all these projects pretty much offer the same uses and activities, just in different shapes and locations within the space. I will say that the Olin concept seems more like a poor man's version of what's already featured on the St. Pete Pier. With that said, whatever is selected will be fine. Drawing renderings and pretty pictures has never been a problem in this town. Getting something decent funded, built and maintained has and remains our challenge. Any idea of how much the Agency concept is estimated to cost at this point?
Estimated costs from the three groups were:
$27 million for Olin.
$23-30 million for P+W.
$3.2 million per "acre of developed land" for Agency.
All three had annual maintenance at $500k to $1 million.
$15 million for the Agency Landscape one, according to the Jax Daily Record.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/three-visions-proposed-for-the-former-jacksonville-landing
What's hard to determine is what is and is not included in these estimates. I assume that the development pad parts are not. So much of the ground floor retail shown in these would not be included in the estimates presented. Someone should photoshop out those pad parcels, so that we can get a realistic perspective of the numbers and overall development
time frame.
Quote3 different visions unveiled for former Landing site
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing-Park-Competition-/i-n4XKMXj/0/b65c6dda/L/Perkins%20and%20Will2-L.png)
Our partners at WJCT take a look at three different visions recently unveiled for the redevelopment of the former Jacksonville Landing site.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/3-different-visions-unveiled-for-former-landing-site/
I like that P & W leaves the most open lawn area, I think that's an important aspect.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 24, 2021, 09:33:12 PM
Definitely some lovely presentations. And I see the broad consensus appears to surround the Perkins & Will proposal. Hopefully the DIA agrees.
The question I'd ask is, seeing now that stuff like Atkins' Riverfront Jax proposal exists, how could we potentially reconcile those proposed designs? Suppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?
I agree. That is if DIA is taking Atkin's proposal under any consideration. I was thinking the same thing because his proposal is an answer to other issues not to far away. However, I definitely like Perkins & Will's park design the most out of them all.
After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.
The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.
Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.
Quote from: martt12 on June 25, 2021, 10:23:38 AMI definitely like Perkins & Will's park design the most out of them all.
Even putting design preferences aside, if you look at the actual proposals, I don't know how anyone other than P+W can win this thing.
They came for blood with this one.
200-page proposal, built around the exact specs and requirements of the RFP; informed by community engagement and over 600 survey responses; centered on an iconic, Jacksonville-specific public art piece (as requested in the RFP); accounting for everything you could possibly ask for in a proposal from an environmental, topographical, landscaping, and programming perspective.
It's a massive file, but can't recommend looking through the Powerpoint deck enough.
They map the currents of the St. Johns River. They account for the location of the Christmas Tree. They even have mock social media posts and merch featuring the sculpture.
I genuinely appreciate how these guys swung for the fences and immersed themselves so deeply in the process and came back with something so thoughtful, appropriate, and non-generic for the space.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 10:41:24 AMLet's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.
Call me an optimist, but I think of all of the projects downtown, the Landing is the one where it's going to be easiest to get public buy-in for something worthy of the space. I'd hope that we'd be willing to spend whatever necessary to get this space right. Worst thing we could do is cheap out on it. I also think there would be a real opportunity to fundraise and get corporate sponsorship for the central art piece.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 10:55:34 AM
Quote from: martt12 on June 25, 2021, 10:23:38 AMI definitely like Perkins & Will's park design the most out of them all.
Even putting design preferences aside, if you look at the actual proposals, I don't know how anyone other than P+W can win this thing.
They came for blood with this one.
200-page proposal, built around the exact specs and requirements of the RFP; informed by community engagement and over 600 survey responses; centered on an iconic, Jacksonville-specific public art piece (as requested in the RFP); accounting for everything you could possibly ask for in a proposal from an environmental, topographical, landscaping, and programming perspective.
It's a massive file, but can't recommend looking through the Powerpoint deck enough.
They map the currents of the St. Johns River. They account for the location of the Christmas Tree. They even have mock social media posts and merch featuring the sculpture.
I genuinely appreciate how these guys swung for the fences and immersed themselves so deeply in the process and came back with something so thoughtful, appropriate, and non-generic for the space.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 10:41:24 AMLet's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.
Call me an optimist, but I think of all of the projects downtown, the Landing is the one where it's going to be easiest to get public buy-in for something worthy of the space. I'd hope that we'd be willing to spend whatever necessary to get this space right. Worst thing we could do is cheap out on it. I also think there would be a real opportunity to fundraise and get corporate sponsorship for the central art piece.
Yeah, but it costs too much. And Jacksonville doesn't like to spend money, and when it does, it either doesn't spend it the right way or spend it wrongfully. I Aope they pick Agency.
heights - What is it you like about the Agency proposal over the other two? If it just cost, then the 'best' solution is to leave the space as it is today - no capital cost, and minimal O&M cost.
Not gonna lie, totally smitten with this public art concept.
Checks all the boxes for me personally.
Art is obviously subjective, does anyone actively dislike it?
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtgKmSSP/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxXRwFry/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbmW9hwr/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mg4HDVNR/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvsNN2Mp/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdhhc7Pf/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv8hh2xv/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLGWkLDD/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzB1xgwW/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhM0mbxb/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2ysr6HsD/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm4yrwGs/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MBLzzsF/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RJWQnpv/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MNqxh7Y/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4N83kg4D/image.png)
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 10:41:24 AM
After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.
The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.
Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.
Setting aside the proposed building on the PAD site (which as envisioned, could probably top $80mm by itself)... I think the Perkins & Will plan would be more in the range of $65mm-$85mm with value engineering, and with annual operating and maintenance costs in the $5mm range. That $65-85mm figure doesn't include the unrealistic marsh creation.
Another very important point to make as far as timelines- COJ has just started down the legal process to take back Sisters City plaza from Mainstreet Capital Partners. All of these plans are based on the City taking back possession of Sisters City Plaza and subsequently realigning Hogan/Water/Independent Drive in order to create a larger site (and potential PAD site). It took COJ more than 4 years to go through the process of taking back the East parking parcel from Sleiman (COJ lost that ruling, btw). Courts currently have pretty sizeable backlogs due to the pandemic. I think you are talking a minimum two years just to get a sense of whether that parcel is even in play.
For perspective, the price tag for all of the bulkhead work along the Northbank Riverwalk from CSX to Berkman is now well over $50mm. Additional perspective comes from the recently completed St Pete Pier Park, which had a price tag of about $3.6mm/acre.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/)
As an aside, Dupont will be releasing their draft plans for the Shipyards space today.
I think the Perkins & Will art piece certainly exceeded what the DIA specifically wanted. It is very nice.
I would prefer it to say 'Bold City' instead of 'Jax', but that's likely much harder to script out legibly. With the Shipyards/Met Park proposals, these proposals on Lenny's Lawn and the Friendship Fountain proposals... you are talking what would approach North of $200mm in public funding along the riverfront... which would unquestionably live up to the moniker of the 'Bold New City of the South'
One more point... there is an existing company in town that REALLY wants to build an office building on one of those PAD sites.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 12:52:19 PM
Not gonna lie, totally smitten with this public art concept.
Checks all the boxes for me personally.
Art is obviously subjective, does anyone actively dislike it?
It's pretty hard to dislike it. I posted years ago that Jax should do something similar to Amsterdam with the name Jax as an iconic place to take a photo downtown...but never even conceived that something like this could be pulled off. It's beautiful and actually BOLD.
(https://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/i/aa/2019/03/i-amsterdam-sign-fb.jpg)
Perkins & Will = WOW!!!!!
They can use any of the other proposals but with the "JAX" art and it would be a win for me.
Hope we make the right decision and don't just automatically pick the one that best fits into the city's scant $15 million budget.
Worries me a bit that the decision is going to be fairly unilateral.
We describe the decision of what to do with the Landing as generational, but literally only two people are scoring the proposals and selecting a winner - Lori Boyer (DIA) and Daryl Joseph (Parks and Rec).
For something this important, I almost wish they'd have a window for public voting and use said public sentiment as one of the variables in the scoring rubric.
That's the rough part that they'll have to address. If Agency knew the budget was $30 million, would aspects of their design change? Anyone know what the parameters of the competition were and if a $15 million budget was one of them?
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2021, 01:12:48 PM
It's pretty hard to dislike it. I posted years ago that Jax should do something similar to Amsterdam with the name Jax as an iconic place to take a photo downtown...but never even conceived that something like this could be pulled off. It's beautiful and actually BOLD.
(https://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/i/aa/2019/03/i-amsterdam-sign-fb.jpg)
CityLife, you read my mind with this post. I actually have a picture of myself and wife with the Amsterdam sign. So many people want pictures with it all day long that it's almost impossible to see the full sign at once. I note that people are bundled up for cold in the picture you have posted and it looks late in the day so probably off-season and off-day for the hordes of tourists.
For those who have never visited, that's the amazing and immense Rijksmuseum, the Netherlands' version of the Lourve or Metropolitan Museum of Art, in the background. It is among the greatest art museums in the world and features the largest collection of Dutch masters including Rembrandt. Adjacent is another great museum, the Van Gogh, which features the largest collection of his paintings in the world.
Love Amsterdam and look forward to, hopefully, a return visit. Another city that Jax leaders could learn much from in terms of city planning, historic preservation, mass transit, resiliency, etc.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 02:15:45 PM
That's the rough part that they'll have to address. If Agency knew the budget was $30 million, would aspects of their design change? Anyone know what the parameters of the competition were and if a $15 million budget was one of them?
Exact language given to applicants was:
QuoteBudget to be determined based on design, but a placeholder budget of 10-15 million is being proposed for inclusion in next year's capital plan.
I believe the insinuation was also made that the above budget was for the park itself, and that public art should be broken out separately and would likely come from a different funding source.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 25, 2021, 12:12:27 PM
heights - What is it you like about the Agency proposal over the other two? If it just cost, then the 'best' solution is to leave the space as it is today - no capital cost, and minimal O&M cost.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 25, 2021, 12:12:27 PM
heights - What is it you like about the Agency proposal over the other two? If it just cost, then the 'best' solution is to leave the space as it is today - no capital cost, and minimal O&M cost.
No, it's a personal preference choice; i just like the look of Agency over P&W; they both basically have the same things in their proposals; but I just like Agency's presentation look better. I know the pricing will change as time goes on (cost), but the the cost had nothing to do with my choice. They all will probably be in the same price range after all is said and done.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 24, 2021, 09:33:12 PMSuppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?
One more piece to consider is the adjacent "Music Park" at the T-U Center, which (insert grain of salt) is supposed to be funded and under construction by Q1.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NM5VNFk0/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yd49GrFS/image.png)
While we are on the subject of public art and icons, I always thought it would be a great idea for Jacksonville to incorporate both into the entrances to the city on I-95 (North and South) and I-10. The city limits will never move, so it is an option that many cities don't have in the same way. The three sites could each be different, but be a variation on a theme. You could also extend it to a location in DT as well, for a total of four sites. Someone a lot more artistic than me would have to come up with the design/theme, but if done right, I think it would have a big mental impact and raise the city's profile. All of the city limit points are 'out in the middle of nowhere' with nothing really around them currently. They would all be hard to miss. One idea would be to incorporate neon lights to piggyback with the lighted bridges/buildings DT.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 24, 2021, 09:33:12 PMSuppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?
One more piece to consider is the adjacent "Music Park" at the T-U Center, which (insert grain of salt) is supposed to be funded and under construction by Q1.
No, no, no. It's much better to piece meal it, plan all these various public riverfront spaces in silos.
RE: Park
Quote from: fsu813 on June 25, 2021, 03:58:10 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 24, 2021, 09:33:12 PMSuppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?
One more piece to consider is the adjacent "Music Park" at the T-U Center, which (insert grain of salt) is supposed to be funded and under construction by Q1.
No, no, no. It's much better to piece meal it, plan all these various public riverfront spaces in silos.
Details are starting to come out about the Shipyards park that will be created via land swap when Kids Campus is developed by the Jags.
Remediation will cost $2 million (half of which will be covered by the feds, half of which will come out of the $13 million we have squirreled away for remediation already), and will involve adding a two-foot cap across the site (three-foot cap in the portion where the Fire Museum will be relocated to).
Hope is to combine the Fire Museum, Orleck Museum, and USS Orleck into a "Hero Park," and to reclaim some of the submerged land for park space or floating amenities.
Design and riverwalk reconstruction would potentially come out of next year's budget, with full construction costs maybe being allocated the year after.
Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Best case scenario is that all the parks end up being awesome.
Worst case scenario is that all of these park projects stretch a finite budget thin enough to where they all get half-assed.
^Here you go!
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zNDkMWn/0/X3/i-zNDkMWn-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XGwghqB/0/X3/i-XGwghqB-X3.jpg)
There's a few options for Metropolitan Park. I have to get on the road to head back to Jax. I'll upload them later.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 25, 2021, 12:59:58 PM
I think the Perkins & Will art piece certainly exceeded what the DIA specifically wanted. It is very nice.
I would prefer it to say 'Bold City' instead of 'Jax', but that's likely much harder to script out legibly. With the Shipyards/Met Park proposals, these proposals on Lenny's Lawn and the Friendship Fountain proposals... you are talking what would approach North of $200mm in public funding along the riverfront... which would unquestionably live up to the moniker of the 'Bold New City of the South'
I would fully support spending $200 million or even a good bit more to create all these parks on this level. And, that's above and beyond the force multiplier of the Emerald Trail. I have no doubt the ROI will be far more than spending similar magnitudes on Lot J, U2C or any of our interstate projects. The demand for housing, office space and tourism Downtown, not to mention the boost in civic pride (our excuse for subsidizing all the asks by the Jaguars that will far exceed this over time) and ultimate increase in tax collections would make it all worthwhile.
Let's not squander this once in a hundred years opportunity and make it happen! Future citizens will also be thanking us for decades to come.
Plus add in the potential for SE Development plans for Riverfront Jacksonville and you have the potential for a "game changer." Seriously, if we want to step up to the big league we need to find a way to do all of this: The Riverfront Plaza, Riverfront Jacksonville, the Shipyards (with MOSH as the star), 1st Downtown, and the Emerald trail. Civic Jax needs to step up and as one of the lowest taxed cities in the US, the citizens need to step-up.
Thanks for sharing, Ennis!
These park plans are all so looking so promising.
Mike mentioned earlier that there's a local company dying to build office space on one of the Landing pads.
I think we'd see similar interest across the riverfront if some of these parks come to fruition, which would hopefully save us some money on the back end by not having to incentivize every development with tax rebates and cash grants.
What's exciting to me is that - though I've been burned many times getting my hopes up - it feels like there's reason to believe that we'll actually see movement on some of these parks in the next two years.
Met Park: The Four Seasons plan flew through the first DIA vote today, and goes before the entire DIA for an easy yes vote on July 7th. There's no way City Council doesn't push this one through nearly unanimously. Met Park is absolutely pivotal to the luxury hotel development. The Jags are committed to making it a showcase park and an event epicenter, and the city will be committed to funding the marina revamps. Feeling like this one has to happen. Looking forward to seeing what the Dupont folks suggest for Met Park.
MOSH: MOSH is KILLING IT with their capital campaign. They've already shattered what they hoped to raise from the private sector, and should have no issues securing the remaining funding from the city (which already earmarked $20 million for MOSH Genesis) and state. They've been meeting with three design teams from three national/international firms (based in London, Omaha, and Detroit) in the last few months, and should have their architect secured within weeks. Feels like this thing is moving full speed ahead, and MOSH has a smart plan for phased construction. Plans calls for a huge setback from the river, with lots of greenspace. Again, feels like this one is destined to happen.
Hogans West Park: Lori Boyer thinks this one is going to start fast. This is because the Jags can't develop Kids Campus without an actual park in place to replace it (not just a grass field, but an actual park). There's talk of actually funding this park first next year, and then funding the marina upgrades the following year, in order to get things moving quickly on the park swap. Remediation is only expected to cost $2 million, which still leaves $11 million in the remediation coffers for other portions of the Shipyards (MOSH, Phase II of the Jags project, etc.).
The Landing: There's $15 million in the CIP earmarked for a new park at the Landing. Sounds like there's going to be a lot of red tape logistically with the site, but I feel like there's going to be a real will to get this one done. Might take a while to get started, but I have confidence it'll happen. And I think the public art centerpiece will gets a huge chunk of its funding from private donors.
Music Park: Same thing. 60% design plans are in, full design plans should be in by fall, money has been set aside for it for the last two years, Performing Arts center is super engaged, CSX is on board, feels like (similar to St. Johns Park), though it's dragged, it's gotta get started eventually.
St. John's Park/Friendship Fountain: Already underway.
The District/RiversEdge riverfront park: Fully designed. Public art has been commissioned. The DIA and city are on the hook to construct it once the bulkhead work is complete at the site, regardless of how slowly private development progresses.
Emerald Trail: FULLY FUNDED via the gas tax with the first phase projected to be under construction next year.
Won't happen overnight, obviously, but if all of these things fall into place, we could be looking at a radically different riverfront by 2025.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 05:13:10 PM
^Here you go!
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zNDkMWn/0/X3/i-zNDkMWn-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XGwghqB/0/X3/i-XGwghqB-X3.jpg)
There's a few options for Metropolitan Park. I have to get on the road to head back to Jax. I'll upload them later.
LOLOLOLOL...HERE YOU GO...HA HA HA HA.
I've not seen any real public discussion of the presentations since they were given, but isn't a selection supposed to be made this month? Possibly at Wednesday's DIA board meeting? Anyone have insight or info on where this process stands?
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 19, 2021, 12:31:00 PM
I've not seen any real public discussion of the presentations sinceeet they were given, but isn't a selection supposed to be made this month? Possibly at Wednesday's DIA board meeting? Anyone have insight or info on where this process stands?
Thursday.
Won't be at the DIA meeting, but rather a special Professional Services Evaluation Committee meeting.
If you would like to express support for any of the park designs, you can email gpease@coj.net and state which design you prefer and why. The feedback window for the public closes Wednesday, July 21st at 5pm.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 19, 2021, 06:37:39 PM
Thursday.
Won't be at the DIA meeting, but rather a special Professional Services Evaluation Committee meeting.
Quote from: Zac T on July 20, 2021, 10:45:30 AM
If you would like to express support for any of the park designs, you can email gpease@coj.net and state which design you prefer and why. The feedback window for the public closes Wednesday, July 21st at 5pm.
Great info, thanks to you both.
Still a 40 million dollar patch of grass where the landing used to be for the foreseeable future.
Perkins & Will gets the nod
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 22, 2021, 10:24:51 AM
Perkins & Will gets the nod
Great job by the committee in making the correct choice.
P&W clearly checked all the boxes (though I'm surprised Agency was so close at #2).
Video, if anyone missed it the first time:
https://vimeo.com/567172349
The public vote was 5 to 1 for Perkins & Will. That appears to have put them over the top. Thank God for public inputs 8)!
Quote...Downtown Investment Authority CEO Lori Boyer said ultimately the scores were close between Agency Landscape + Planning's design and Perkins & Will's design. She said there were several factors that put Perkins & Will over the top.
Boyer said input from the public weighed approximately 5 to 1 in favor of the Perkins & Will proposal, called One Park Jax. The design proposal includes a 151-foot high sculpture that spells out "Jax," which was another factor in choosing that plan.
"Love it or hate it, people were talking about the sculpture. That kind of attention is part of our goal in terms of downtown activation," Boyer said in the meeting.
As previously reported, the cost of construction is around $12 million. The art installation proposed for the site would cost between $11 million and $18 million depending on the materials chosen — giving a total cost of $23 million to $30 million, with a maintenance cost of around $1 million per year....
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/07/22/new-design-for-site.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=bn&utm_content=ja&ana=e_ja_bn&j=24524443&senddate=2021-07-22
Good. Hope we all get to see it and even more, enjoy it.
Fingers crossed we don't cheap out on the finish.
Mirrored or bust.
Congrats to the winning team. I'm still highly skeptical about that cost estimate, so I hope the city commits the necessary funds when its revealed that the true cost is two to three times as much.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 22, 2021, 05:43:35 PM
Congrats to the winning team. I'm still highly skeptical about that cost estimate, so I hope the city commits the necessary funds when its revealed that the true cost is two to three times as much.
Didn't they say 12 to 18 million dollars? I'll bet it will in fact be much more than that.
^Even less than that.
The $11-$18 million is just for the art piece.
Park is in the $12 million range, which feels very low.
Worth noting that, from what I understand, the $100 million in the mayor's budget for the next two years for parks & rec doesn't include the Landing.
Once the city negotiates the agreement with P+W, final design will begin, which is expected to take a full year.
P+W's going to give the city a final cost estimate in time for inclusion in next year's budget, which will be a separate line item in the CIP.
Based on that timeline, feels like we probably won't see dirt turning at Lenny's Lawn until Q4 2022/Q1 2023.
Hopefully the DIA gets the wheels turning quickly on private development (and any road reconfigurations) so that the commercial pads and greenspace can be developed and constructed in tandem.
The cost estimates for what's shown in that rendering are ridiculously low. That cut in the seawall with the living shoreline alone would probably cost $12 million these days.
The Bean was originally estimated to cost $6 million. The Final figures ended up at $23 million. It's only 33 feet high. That was nearly 20 years ago.
I do like it, but I wish the front of the parking garage next to the Vystar building can be left room for something. The park facing side of the Wells Fargo building is quite a dead space too. Kind of a shame.
Now we need the main street bridge to be converted into a green space thats pedestrian and bicycle only. Main Street Bridge Park!
CAHMPOUND
Quote from: JaGoaT on July 22, 2021, 10:56:09 PM
Now we need the main street bridge to be converted into a green space thats pedestrian and bicycle only. Main Street Bridge Park!
CAHMPOUND
This was done during the Super Bowl here. It was amazing to see thousands of pedestrians and street vendors take over the closed bridge and Bay Street, from Main to the Stadium, for several days. Not to mention the jam packed riverwalks and the Landing.
Setups from that event were worthy of being duplicated every weekend since but, this is Jax, and no one learned or salvaged a single lesson from it despite the obvious evidence that, at little cost, these closures would go far to enliven Downtown. No, subsidizing the Four Seasons for tens of millions will do more :P.
Quote from: JaGoaT on July 22, 2021, 10:56:09 PM
Now we need the main street bridge to be converted into a green space thats pedestrian and bicycle only. Main Street Bridge Park!
CAHMPOUND
Without shops and restaurants supporting it on either side now it will never look busy as it was during the Super bowl.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 22, 2021, 11:14:59 PMSetups from that event were worthy of being duplicated every weekend since but, this is Jax, and no one learned or salvaged a single lesson from it despite the obvious evidence that, at little cost, these closures would go far to enliven Downtown. No, subsidizing the Four Seasons for tens of millions will do more :P.
Why can't it be both?
---
Article on the artist behind the sculpture.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/23/meet-the-filipino-american-artist-behind-the-151-foot-jax-sculpture-coming-to-new-downtown-park/
Quote from: JeffreyS on July 23, 2021, 09:13:04 AM
Without shops and restaurants supporting it on either side now it will never look busy as it was during the Super bowl.
I love it when urbanistas say the quite parts out loud --> It's all about the aesthetics.
^No, it's about street level vibrancy. That comes from clustering in a walkable setting.
So, from what I can see, the view of the giant sculpture is designed to be read from the South Bank, and everyone in the CBD will see:
xaJ
?
I suspect a head-on view from the CBD will be obstructed by the Wells Fargo building and the future hotel development on the eastern pad. It will likely look pretty abstract from anywhere on the Northbank, if I had to guess. The video from P&W had some views closer up when walking in and around the sculpture.
Instead of "xaJ",how about something that looks amazing from any point of view?
What is your idea of a piece of public art that appeals to 100% of the people who see it?
Fascinating to see Lori Boyer so enthralled with the Artsy Pipe.
Hey Lori...... the Pharmacy has called and left message- your heavy psychedelic meds refill is ready.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 23, 2021, 03:45:13 PM
What is your idea of a piece of public art that appeals to 100% of the people who see it?
Lol!
Spelling "xaJ" in big shiny letters does not meet my idea of a public art piece under any circumstance. It's awful.
A better alternative to fixed giant metal Edifice;
Inflatables! Yes, now that is engineered merchandising!
Will meet any " Vision" and " Public Input" parameters.
Current technology provides for creation and production of Giant inflatable structures.
An inflatable structure device, capable of inflated who knows what, all sorts of designs and images, removed and replaced with a new structure on a moments'notice or whim,could anchor the Landing, and for only a couple millions more $ We will even include the ability to move the Giant Inflatable Image Device off of the Landing property. Maybe even a 400 foot Yacht owned by an NFL Football Team owner, or inland..... Lane Avenue and Park today, the scene of a mid day Convenience Store shooting......after all, that is gettin' close to Downtown.
Quote from: MusicMan on July 23, 2021, 03:07:44 PM
Instead of "xaJ",how about something that looks amazing from any point of view?
I thought the sculpture shown in renderings was a place holder for a sculpture "that symbolically defines Jax" not an actual Jax sculpture lol
Music Man I totally agree.
Here are a few rendered views of the sculpture from the Northbank, MM.
As others have mentioned, it's going to look abstract from the rear (particularly with how large it is), and most definitely won't read like a contextless xaJ. Don't forget, there will also be a water feature on the rear.
Part of the DIA's judgement criteria for public art was that it had to look interesting from all angles.
Interesting to hear the debates around town on the piece.
I remain smitten with it, think it's awesome, and hope it gets built with a mirrored finish.
Two things though:
"The Jax" is a terrible name for it, even if it's a placeholder.
Also, I've heard enough people say that it looks like "sex," "derp," or "lex" at a glance that there's got to be something to it. Hope Jefrë tweaks the final decision enough to where it's a little more easily legible and can't possibly to misinterpreted for a word we don't want it to be misinterpreted for.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbmW9hwr/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mg4HDVNR/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm4yrwGs/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MBLzzsF/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RJWQnpv/image.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MNqxh7Y/image.png)
The charging bull in NYC literally looks like butt from one side and still remains iconic. Some people even prefer their photo op on that side. The world-renowned Chicago bean is an abstract amorphous blob of the same material we're talking about here. And don't even get me started on how the St. Louis arch, viewed sideways, doesn't appear to be an arch at all -- it's just a stick in the sky!!!
Point being, you've every right to dislike the art, but similar criticisms can be leveled at many of the great public art fixtures in the world and it doesn't diminish them in the slightest. Heck, if we get a few million people to come to Jax and make fun of our xaJ while drinking a beer in the park...that's a win.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 23, 2021, 07:40:51 PM
The charging bull in NYC literally looks like butt from one side and still remains iconic. Some people even prefer their photo op on that side. The world-renowned Chicago bean is an abstract amorphous blob of the same material we're talking about here. And don't even get me started on how the St. Louis arch, viewed sideways, doesn't appear to be an arch at all -- it's just a stick in the sky!!!
Point being, you've every right to dislike the art, but similar criticisms can be leveled at many of the great public art fixtures in the world and it doesn't diminish them in the slightest. Heck, if we get a few million people to come to Jax and make fun of our xaJ while drinking a beer in the park...that's a win.
THE HUMANITY :-\
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3WYWDkN/6-F4-B9-F85-39-C4-4-DF3-9-EE3-CACCCBF872-D8.jpg)
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 23, 2021, 07:56:54 PM
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 23, 2021, 07:40:51 PM
The charging bull in NYC literally looks like butt from one side and still remains iconic. Some people even prefer their photo op on that side. The world-renowned Chicago bean is an abstract amorphous blob of the same material we're talking about here. And don't even get me started on how the St. Louis arch, viewed sideways, doesn't appear to be an arch at all -- it's just a stick in the sky!!!
Point being, you've every right to dislike the art, but similar criticisms can be leveled at many of the great public art fixtures in the world and it doesn't diminish them in the slightest. Heck, if we get a few million people to come to Jax and make fun of our xaJ while drinking a beer in the park...that's a win.
THE HUMANITY :-\
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3WYWDkN/6-F4-B9-F85-39-C4-4-DF3-9-EE3-CACCCBF872-D8.jpg)
This is Jacksonville at it's best.
Not near the energy of Consolidation and press images of that time, after all, that period was some sort of Climax, but today's chants are right in line.
Those mock up's help. Thank you. I think id prefer a giant, shiny DNA double helix as a monument to humanity instead , but if 'xaJ' is it, I'll go take a picture with it. 8)
Coming soon to a downtown Jacksonville gift shop...
Front of t-shirt: "Jax"
Back of t-shirt: "xaJ"
Problem solved.
Why I didn't say anything until now. Fine arts is my field and this piece is kitsch in every way, but I do understand the plus sides as well. I just wouldn't call it art.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2021, 08:39:59 AM
Why I didn't say anything until now. Fine arts is my field and this piece is kitsch in every way, but I do understand the plus sides as well. I just wouldn't call it art.
It's a work of imagination and skill created for aesthetic purposes and/or to express the creator's feelings and ideas. It's art. It may be good art or bad art, or high art or low art, but art is what it is.
Sorry, but it is decorative craft. It does not take part in the long and difficult conversation of the history of art and aesthetics in any way, period. That being said, I do understand it's appeal as selfie fodder bringing lots of tourists to Jacksonville. I'm fine with that, but call it what it is. Honestly, I would prefer a Socialist Realism sculpture of Curry, Boyer, and Mickey Mouse holding hands
I can say I wish The Cummer and MOCA were part of the conversation. It would be nice to have an Amish Kapoor.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2021, 06:35:44 PM
Sorry, but it is decorative craft. It does not take part in the long and difficult conversation of the history of art and aesthetics in any way, period. That being said, I do understand it's appeal as selfie fodder bringing lots of tourists to Jacksonville. I'm fine with that, but call it what it is. Honestly, I would prefer a Socialist Realism sculpture of Curry, Boyer, and Mickey Mouse holding hands
What it is: art. ;)
??? ::)
From Facebook, here is Jimmy Midyette's explanation
Quote
For what it's worth, it's layered. The "I" is behind the "J," which isn't cursive. The heart doubles as an "a." Altogether, it's
I
❤
Jax
and for what it is worth, most of the people commenting don't see it
Quote from: Tacachale on July 24, 2021, 12:42:16 PM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2021, 08:39:59 AM
Why I didn't say anything until now. Fine arts is my field and this piece is kitsch in every way, but I do understand the plus sides as well. I just wouldn't call it art.
It's a work of imagination and skill created for aesthetic purposes and/or to express the creator's feelings and ideas. It's art. It may be good art or bad art, or high art or low art, but art is what it is.
Wonderful.
No public/ tax payer payment.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 24, 2021, 08:09:53 PM
From Facebook, here is Jimmy Midyette's explanation
Quote
For what it's worth, it's layered. The "I" is behind the "J," which isn't cursive. The heart doubles as an "a." Altogether, it's
I
❤
Jax
and for what it is worth, most of the people commenting don't see it
I rest my case
Art is just one of those things ... arguing about it is almost as fruitless as arguing on the intern... oh, crap. Nevermind. ;D
This discussion reminds me of a segment I saw on TV once. A 'famous' NYC artist created a 'piece' that was a urinal without the plumbing. That was it. It wasn't painted or anything, there was nothing else to it. Just a urinal without the silver plumbing pipes. It sold for $1 million and that was decades ago, when that was even more money than it is now.
Jeff Koons after Marcel Duchamp Fountain.
I believe it might be.
Already a lot of weirdness going on with the Landing space.
The DIA put out an RFP with scoring criteria heavily weighted toward public art.
Perkins & Will were selected as the winner, per the DIA, because of the central "Jax" art piece scored significantly higher than public art proposed by the other two.
QuoteBoyer said the three teams scored consistently in many of the criteria and it was the public art proposed by Perkins&Will that put it over the top.
"I think the inclusion of that monumental piece of art really threw Perkins and Will over the top," said Lori Boyer, CEO of DIA. "Love it or hate it, the public art piece shown in the Perkins and Will design has received a tremendous amount of public comment, which I think really indicates its iconic nature in the sense that you see it, you know it's there, people are talking about it."
Meanwhile, at the DIA meeting last night (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/dia-theres-much-more-one-park-jax-design-art-sculpture-remains-center-attention/ZOPMA7CI2FDLHGWRUV33ISQDTU/), it seems like the DIA might be backtracking from the sculpture that gave P+W the win amid some public backlash, which would negate the entire reason that P+W won the competition.
QuoteThe Downtown Investment Authority held a meeting on Thursday and provided an update to the One Park Jax design. While the sculpture has been the center of attention, they say there's much more to the proposal.
However, head of the DIA, Lori Boyer, said it seems clear among the board they want an iconic, memorable piece of art in the Landing area, saying it would be unique and bold for Jacksonville.
"Make sure we are getting public space right and the uses in it right and programming in it right," Boyer said. "So, what we have on the ground is much more important for how everyone will use that space than some art piece that we eventually put on top of a platform...
"We will be working with that team to come to an agreement on the contract of design of the park space and that will move forward over the course of the next nine months," Boyer said. "There will be opportunity for input on the park and if an art piece is a considered part of the park space, as we move through that process. There will be opportunity for input and comment and things like that."
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this thing would be value engineered by the time it's completed years from now. I'm not surprised.
I'm not a fan of the piece, but it seemed like the Jax instillation was really popular with the public.
When I go into Word and play with its fonts, I dismiss many of them due to poor readability. I am sure there may be a more artistic font that is clearer if push comes to shove.
Although, I don't look at this as just saying "Jax." In fact, when I first saw the concept, I liked it just for the sculpted curves and overall shape. Finding out that it spells "Jax" was just another way to appreciate it.
If they never pointed out that "Jax" was the point of it, I wonder if it would have the pushback it has from some now.
Sculpture aside, I still think the P & W concept for use of the land was the best of the bunch.
Looks like a pretzel when I first saw it...a silver chrome looking pretzel. But when I found out it said Jax, I began to like and appreciate it more.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 30, 2021, 05:46:58 PM
When I go into Word and play with its fonts, I dismiss many of them due to poor readability. I am sure there may be a more artistic font that is clearer if push comes to shove.
Although, I don't look at this as just saying "Jax." In fact, when I first saw the concept, I liked it just for the sculpted curves and overall shape. Finding out that it spells "Jax" was just another way to appreciate it.
If they never pointed out that "Jax" was the point of it, I wonder if it would have the pushback it has from some now.
Agreed, and that was a part of the overall intent of the piece.
Would highly recommend watching the artist talking about the sculpture during P+W's presentation to the city.
It's at the 45:30 mark here.
Really interesting stuff.
https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/onedrive.aspx?originalPath=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb2ozNjUtbXkuc2hhcmVwb2ludC5jb20vcGVyc29uYWwvcm1lemluaV9jb2pfbmV0L19sYXlvdXRzLzE1L2d1ZXN0YWNjZXNzLmFzcHg%5FZm9sZGVyaWQ9MGQ5ZjJmYzQzNDViMjQxYWE5M2Y4OTk0MDdhYTc2ZmI4JmF1dGhrZXk9QWV5cE5JZE9VWEE4S00yckJqcEhLb28mcnRpbWU9YUQ3RUlhdFQyVWc&id=%2Fpersonal%2Frmezini%5Fcoj%5Fnet%2FDocuments%2FP%2001%2002%20Northbank%20Lawn%20Riverfront%20Plaza%20FKA%20Jacksonville%20Landing%20Design%20Competition%2FMeeting%20Recordings%2F03%2E%2020210624%20Riverfront%20Plaza%20Design%20Competition%5FPart%203%2Emp4&parent=%2Fpersonal%2Frmezini%5Fcoj%5Fnet%2FDocuments%2FP%2001%2002%20Northbank%20Lawn%20Riverfront%20Plaza%20FKA%20Jacksonville%20Landing%20Design%20Competition%2FMeeting%20Recordings
Hope it gets built with some slight modifications.
Jax is Rad had quite the discussion going on about the piece on Instagram. It was nice because the maker was part of the conversation.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CRpW_7-j2B9/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/CRpW_7-j2B9/)
Some of my students were part of the debate. I stayed out of the conversation since I don't have anything productive to add. 8)
Unfortunately it looks too similar to letters. That the artist needs to explain how it isn't what it appears to be is a fail. When designing a visual piece of art how it looks (without explanation) should be considered IMO. The basic concept is fine just change it enough so that it doesn't look like letters or is intentionally letters. Accidentally looking like letters just seems foolish.
The city has removed a previous fad of the day - indoor shopping - and replaced it with the current fad of the day --> instagram "art"
have to give them some credit for a type of consistency, no?
It seems even London can swing and miss at an 'iconic public space' idea (from Smithsonian)
Quote
London officials had grand visions for the Marble Arch Mound, a temporary installation that opened this week next to one of the English city's iconic landmarks.
Designs for the attraction depicted a lush, foliage-covered hill rising over the bustling shopping district of Oxford Street and greenery of Hyde Park. The mound's purposes were numerous and lofty: to entice visitors back to the area as Covid-19 restrictions lifted, provide a new perspective of the neighboring Marble Arch and emphasize the importance of urban green space in the fight against climate change.
But those plans, it seems, have all gone downhill.
...
Public criticism of the site was swift and rather merciless, with people comparing it to "awkward bits of land in 'The Sims'" and a "bad Santa's grotto."
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/widely-mocked-london-tourist-attraction-closes-two-days-after-opening-180978330/?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=newsletter
I like the concept of the art installation, but the execution may need to be refined.
The other piece I'm worried about is having a situation similar to London's "Walkie Talkie" building where the sunlight reflects off the structure in unexpected ways (especially if it's the mirror finish). There are a few concave sections that I could see potential issues with focusing light on to surrounding structures and potentially causing fires or damaging something. At the very least, the reflections could be quite a nuisance to surrounding offices.
Maybe we can do an additional RFP to artists specifically for the public art portion and start construction on the rest of the park with that space set aside until a winner is chosen?
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-releases-bid-terms-for-1-acre-private-development-at-former-landing-site
I wonder if the other development pad is disappearing, or maybe being RFP'd later separately.
Do you guys agree with the DIA that hotel or office tower is preferable to multifamily for the pad adjacent to the Main Street Bridge?
QuoteI wonder if the other development pad is disappearing, or maybe being RFP'd later separately.
DIA/COJ is currently in the middle of a lawsuit to try to take back Sisters City Plaza from Mainstreet.
This parcel here:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/hyatt-place-tower-preparing-to-break-ground-in-downtown/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/hyatt-place-tower-preparing-to-break-ground-in-downtown/)
The northwest portion of the former Landing space is still entirely dependent on the result of that lawsuit (which likely will take years to settle). If COJ can take back the property, then Water Street/Independent Street will be realigned to make way for more developable land at the former Landing site. You really can't (or more accurately, shouldn't) RFP something until you know what the size of the PAD will actually be.
QuoteDo you guys agree with the DIA that hotel or office tower is preferable to multifamily for the pad adjacent to the Main Street Bridge?
There is a local company that is very interested in that PAD site for a new office tower.
Quote from: fieldafm on February 08, 2022, 11:16:42 AM
QuoteI wonder if the other development pad is disappearing, or maybe being RFP'd later separately.
DIA/COJ is currently in the middle of a lawsuit to try to take back Sisters City Plaza from Mainstreet.
This parcel here:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/hyatt-place-tower-preparing-to-break-ground-in-downtown/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/hyatt-place-tower-preparing-to-break-ground-in-downtown/)
The northwest portion of the former Landing space is still entirely dependent on the result of that lawsuit (which likely will take years to settle). If COJ can take back the property, then Water Street/Independent Street will be realigned to make way for more developable land at the former Landing site. You really can't (or more accurately, shouldn't) RFP something until you know what the size of the PAD will actually be.
That sounds familiar.....looking to see the Ford on Bay thread.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 08, 2022, 10:58:25 AM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-releases-bid-terms-for-1-acre-private-development-at-former-landing-site
I wonder if the other development pad is disappearing, or maybe being RFP'd later separately.
Do you guys agree with the DIA that hotel or office tower is preferable to multifamily for the pad adjacent to the Main Street Bridge?
I think ideally this would be a 20-25 story building 50/50 split hotel and apartments. It would add some density to an area that really needs it and hotel guests the impression the area is more than just a riverfront park for the homeless.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on February 08, 2022, 02:09:49 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 08, 2022, 10:58:25 AM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-releases-bid-terms-for-1-acre-private-development-at-former-landing-site
I wonder if the other development pad is disappearing, or maybe being RFP'd later separately.
Do you guys agree with the DIA that hotel or office tower is preferable to multifamily for the pad adjacent to the Main Street Bridge?
I think ideally this would be a 20-25 story building 50/50 split hotel and apartments. It would add some density to an area that really needs it and hotel guests the impression the area is more than just a riverfront park for the homeless.
Wasn't Office integration mentioned as well? If there's office integrated in there as well, then we're talking maybe a little taller than 20-25 stories. You all (y'all) know I'm a height freak AND that I am salivating.
QuoteThere is a local company that is very interested in that PAD site for a new office tower.
I take it this company will be filling most (or all) of this space THEMSELVES, because the demand for Class A office space in DT JAX would not support the construction of a spec building.
I don't get the idea that Multi-family requires more parking than a hotel or office building would. Am I missing something?
Quote from: vicupstate on February 08, 2022, 04:06:07 PM
QuoteThere is a local company that is very interested in that PAD site for a new office tower.
I take it this company will be filling most (or all) of this space THEMSELVES, because the demand for Class A office space in DT JAX would not support the construction of a spec building.
I would think Vystar might be a candidate. I recall they once said they may need still more space to accommodate their growth and/or joint ventures/investments in related businesses. It would also make sense given its proximity to its existing spaces. And, it appears they have the resources to do this along with a commitment to further promoting downtown. With their new parking garage, they might also be able to limit parking on the Landing site.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 08, 2022, 04:14:14 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on February 08, 2022, 04:06:07 PM
QuoteThere is a local company that is very interested in that PAD site for a new office tower.
I take it this company will be filling most (or all) of this space THEMSELVES, because the demand for Class A office space in DT JAX would not support the construction of a spec building.
I would think Vystar might be a candidate.
You don't say...
They must be pretty serious if the city put this RFP out there for them.
Quote from: fieldafm on February 08, 2022, 11:16:42 AM
QuoteI wonder if the other development pad is disappearing, or maybe being RFP'd later separately.
DIA/COJ is currently in the middle of a lawsuit to try to take back Sisters City Plaza from Mainstreet.
This parcel here:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/hyatt-place-tower-preparing-to-break-ground-in-downtown/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/hyatt-place-tower-preparing-to-break-ground-in-downtown/)
The northwest portion of the former Landing space is still entirely dependent on the result of that lawsuit (which likely will take years to settle). If COJ can take back the property, then Water Street/Independent Street will be realigned to make way for more developable land at the former Landing site. You really can't (or more accurately, shouldn't) RFP something until you know what the size of the PAD will actually be.
QuoteDo you guys agree with the DIA that hotel or office tower is preferable to multifamily for the pad adjacent to the Main Street Bridge?
There is a local company that is very interested in that PAD site for a new office tower.
Thanks for the info Mike!
Had totally forgotten about that Hyatt Place proposal.
I'm sure you can't say who on the local company, but would they be new to downtown?
Oof.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-receives-single-bid-for-1-acre-private-development-at-riverfront-plaza
Wow. Let's see what happens here. New York. Should be a google eyed mind blowing presentation. The Wells Fargo Building should motivate "Lions" to push high with this building/skyscraper. I hope Boyer and Company keep an open mind on this one presentation; kind of wonder why no one else around the country bit except maybe because the location being Jacksonville Florida (sigh).
Any word or ANYTHING from that local company that was interested?
Quote from: heights unknown on April 20, 2022, 08:28:34 PMI hope Boyer and Company keep an open mind on this one presentation; kind of wonder why no one else around the country bit for the exception of the location being Jacksonville Florida (sigh).
The DIA heavily weighted RFP scoring toward a 15+ story hotel or office tower, neither of which there is particular demand for in downtown Jacksonville right now.
Maybe that scared some potential bidders off.
Ironically, based on the bidder, you've got to think that the sole respondent has likely proposed a residential development.
IMO just leave it as a nice green space for now. No need to develop it, There are SO DAMN MANY projects in the works downtown right now that really need to be completed before we put another proposal before the people.
I wonder if resiliency issues didn't also scare some bidders off. It is almost a certainty this land will be underwater at some point during the life of any building on the property. Remember, the Wells Fargo building underground garage filled with water and the building was closed for several months due to the flooding of its infrastructure during Irma.
Ennis needs to post some historic photos to verify if this is dredged land, which I believe it is.
P.S. How was parking for such a building expected to be addressed?
Here is the look from Irma when the Landing was there:
(https://www.wokv.com/resizer/lTeDL-1zHwyPHKquWFpKj2LU9aA=/800x0/filters:format(png):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/cmg/PPRKESGOFFESGKVMBJJLQVSWFU.png)
And, about the same spot, during Hurricane Dora in 1964:
(https://jaxpubliclibrary.org/files/Dora4.jpg)
Some other pictures from irma:
(http://stories.usatodaynetwork.com/ouruntamedriver/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2018/04/JAX_26_MorningAfterI.jpg)
(https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Video/201709/f_jacksonville_flood_170911.jpg)
Quote from: MusicMan on April 20, 2022, 08:51:21 PM
IMO just leave it as a nice green space for now. No need to develop it, There are SO DAMN MANY projects in the works downtown right now that really need to be completed before we put another proposal before the people.
Pretty strongly disagree on this one. The park design will be completed in time to get construction costs into next year's budget. It's definitely happening. If we're going to invest $30 million+ into creating a great park space here, we need to actually do the thing properly, in the spirit of the winning design, inclusive of a signature art piece and private development. Last thing we need is to open a half assed park with a "Coming Soon" pedestal for art and a roped off acre of patchy grass for a "later private development." Neither one will ever happen, the park will be set up to fail, and in the event that we do actually develop the pad later, it will shut down a huge portion of the park for staging and probably destroy all the grass.
We can't Skyway this one.
And we've already tried half-assing the Landing and setting it up to fail.
Do it right from the get go, I say.
And strike while the iron is hot.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 20, 2022, 09:07:32 PM
I wonder if resiliency issues didn't also scare some bidders off. It is almost a certainty this land will be underwater at some point during the life of any building on the property. Remember, the Wells Fargo building underground garage filled with water and the building was closed for several months due to the flooding of its infrastructure during Irma.
Ennis needs to post some historic photos to verify if this is dredged land, which I believe it is.
P.S. How was parking for such a building expected to be addressed?
Here is the look from Irma when the Landing was there:
(https://www.wokv.com/resizer/lTeDL-1zHwyPHKquWFpKj2LU9aA=/800x0/filters:format(png):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/cmg/PPRKESGOFFESGKVMBJJLQVSWFU.png)
And, about the same spot, during Hurricane Dora in 1964:
(https://jaxpubliclibrary.org/files/Dora4.jpg)
Some other pictures from irma:
(http://stories.usatodaynetwork.com/ouruntamedriver/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2018/04/JAX_26_MorningAfterI.jpg)
(https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Video/201709/f_jacksonville_flood_170911.jpg)
Question; did the Landing get flooded out? It doesn't appear that it did. I would say the Court Yard probably did.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 20, 2022, 09:21:03 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on April 20, 2022, 08:51:21 PM
IMO just leave it as a nice green space for now. No need to develop it, There are SO DAMN MANY projects in the works downtown right now that really need to be completed before we put another proposal before the people.
Pretty strongly disagree on this one. The park design will be completed in time to get construction costs into next year's budget. It's definitely happening. If we're going to invest $30 million+ into creating a great park space here, we need to actually do the thing properly, in the spirit of the winning design, inclusive of a signature art piece and private development. Last thing we need is to open a half assed park with a "Coming Soon" pedestal for art and a roped off acre of patchy grass for a "later private development." Neither one will ever happen, the park will be set up to fail, and in the event that we do actually develop the pad later, it will shut down a huge portion of the park for staging and probably destroy all the grass.
We can't Skyway this one.
And we've already tried half-assing the Landing and setting it up to fail.
Do it right from the get go, I say.
And strike while the iron is hot.
Atta man; I agree
If they build a great park my feelings wont be hurt. What I like is the green space.
Quote from: heights unknown on April 20, 2022, 10:05:24 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 20, 2022, 09:07:32 PM
I wonder if resiliency issues didn't also scare some bidders off. It is almost a certainty this land will be underwater at some point during the life of any building on the property. Remember, the Wells Fargo building underground garage filled with water and the building was closed for several months due to the flooding of its infrastructure during Irma.
Ennis needs to post some historic photos to verify if this is dredged land, which I believe it is.
P.S. How was parking for such a building expected to be addressed?
Here is the look from Irma when the Landing was there:
(https://www.wokv.com/resizer/lTeDL-1zHwyPHKquWFpKj2LU9aA=/800x0/filters:format(png):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/cmg/PPRKESGOFFESGKVMBJJLQVSWFU.png)
And, about the same spot, during Hurricane Dora in 1964:
(https://jaxpubliclibrary.org/files/Dora4.jpg)
Some other pictures from irma:
(http://stories.usatodaynetwork.com/ouruntamedriver/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2018/04/JAX_26_MorningAfterI.jpg)
(https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Video/201709/f_jacksonville_flood_170911.jpg)
Question; did the Landing get flooded out? It doesn't appear that it did. I would say the Court Yard probably did.
The Landing was designed to accommodate storm surge. None of the businesses had water intrusion after Irma, and the Landing wsa open for business a day after the water receded from Hogan/Independent Drive. I kayaked through the middle of the courtyard the morning right after the storm. Resiliency issues had literally nothing to do with why the developers who had initially expressed interest in this site, didn't ultimately submit a bid.
Literally everything South of Bay Street is fill.... including the current Vystar Tower, TUPAC, Wells Fargo Building, Hyatt, etc. During Irma, water went to the lowest areas... which is what water does. The area near the Chamber/Wells Fargo building is the lowest point and topographically is like a little reservoir. Not surprisingly, that's where the water mostly flowed to and the pumps in the underground garage at the Wells Fargo building couldnt keep up with the flow, and failed. You don't think about it, but the Northbank is essentially a gently sloping hill from about Duval Street down towards the river. It slopes back down again in a Northeast direction going from Ashely Street or so towards Springfield/Klutho Park and Hogans Creek.
As predicted years ago, this has taken way too long and unfortunately nothing will be changing anytime soon. It was clear as day what would end up happening based on past failed public projects that utilized the same redevelopment strategy. Nevertheless, they should consider finding a way to build the park without immediately needing a 7 to 15 story building if this particular developer's response is rejected. Columbus Commons is a good model to follow and we suggested should have been the approach with the shipyards years ago.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 21, 2022, 08:18:52 AM
As predicted years ago, this has taken way too long and unfortunately nothing will be changing anytime soon. It was clear as day what would end up happening based on past failed public projects that utilized the same redevelopment strategy. Nevertheless, they should consider finding a way to build the park without immediately needing a 7 to 15 story building if this particular developer's response is rejected. Columbus Commons is a good model to follow and we suggested should have been the approach with the shipyards years ago.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/getting-it-right-columbus-commons/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/getting-it-right-columbus-commons/)
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-what-to-do-with-the-shipyards (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-what-to-do-with-the-shipyards)
Be as well letting Khan or Fuqua throw up stick apartments at this rate tbh.
Quote from: landfall on April 21, 2022, 02:54:27 PM
Be as well letting Khan or Fuqua throw up stick apartments at this rate tbh.
Please don't; please please don't.
The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. The Landing is looking pretty good these days. ;-)
Isn't the bid for this being opened today? At least that's what the Daily Record said in their article. I can't find anything about the meeting on the DIA or COJ websites.
Here you go:
$166 million, at least 40 stories, mainly 330 apartments, some retail/restaurant at ground level and top floor. Incentives and other details to be determined.
Can't be sure from the rendering shown, but appears the building may be triangular. Interesting that it mimics the widening base of the Wells Fargo tower :).
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2022/04/26/american-lions-landing-jacksonville.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=ja&ana=e_ja_BN&j=27502680&senddate=2022-04-26
(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/12248046/screen-shot-2022-04-26-at-22941-pm.png)
Now that's more like it; need about 4 or 5 more of those towers taller than that. We can squeeze them in somewhere. And it had better get built!
More details and photos:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/new-york-developer-pitches-dollar166-million-residential-high-rise-downtown
Biz Journal always wants you to subscribe and want money; any links (newsworthy) that don't cost anything?
Alright; get to work, bust ass, and make this thing happen! WE can do this. I love this design, and yes, mimicking the Wells Fargo Building (I love it). Is that gonna be a "follow on" in skyscraper design from now on? It appears they really want this to happen, both sides, and want to find creative ways to make it happen and ensure that it does happen. 486 feet. Why not make it 500 even?
Not sure yet how I feel about the base somewhat mirroring the Wells Fargo building, but imo it's a big step up from what we've been seeing proposed and built lately.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/386835_standard.jpeg)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/386830_standard.jpeg?itok=8bffZH6T)
A few more graphics to complete the story:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/386829_standard.jpeg?itok=fLsQpPpY)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/386833_standard.jpeg?itok=jKHYgpY1)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/386832_standard.jpeg?itok=RHqnamQH)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/386836_standard.jpeg?itok=q6dR-qNZ)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/386838_standard.jpeg?itok=pjt6Cif7)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/386834_standard.jpeg?itok=51FDc0dB)
That doesn't get built for anything close to $166m in today's climate unless the floor area is a lot less than those renderings suggest. The FIS building was $145M pre COVID...
Looks cool though.
^ You may be right but just to play devil's advocate:
If this building comes in at 500,000 sf (the aerial perspective looks like relatively small floor plates), it amounts to $332/sf. Maybe more, maybe less. Based on their presentation, they are spending $500,000 a unit. That is about 60% higher than the typical high end suburban sales I have read about recently although maybe at the Beach or Town Center they are a little higher. But, those are resales, too, based on cash flow, not actual costs of construction by the developer which, if they are selling at a profit, should be a bit less.
FIS maybe be a much higher number because they built a 1,000 car garage plus, likely, upgraded the building to be "catastrophe proof" and highly secure to protect their ability to deliver uninterrupted critical support that goes with their line of business. Some of the dollars may also be for furnishings, not the building itself. Not sure if the FIS number includes buying the dirt or how that is accounted for on the Landing project to make a further comparison. Lastly, FIS, being in a very competitive tech labor market, may have added high end finishes and amenities to recruit and retain employees.
All the above said, with inflation running high, the developer here likely has an inflation "out" or comeback if costs exceed the preliminary numbers. No doubt, they know how to insure they don't lose short of a major change in market conditions. The Daily Record notes they want to pay only $100K/yr in property taxes vs. $2.4 million/yr over 40 years so they may have plenty of coverage for overruns right there if the City caves on that :).
I like the building but not on that site. We ask for clustering but I think that building clutters the area.
^ You could say the building is literally and figuratively a "wedge" :)!
I like the design but share your concern. It looks to overwhelm the site. It also looks like the design might be too forced - to meet DIA's requirements while also working hard to not interfere with the river views of Wells Fargo tenants. The similarities of the widened based with the Wells Fargo building also strikes me as too much of a good thing that close together.
At the risk of Field & Co. jumping my case, I think seeing this concept reinforces why the entire parcel should be green space with maybe some one story retail/amenities blended in. I would love to see this building on another block of the core. Maybe on the larger surface lot parcel (per Google map measurements) across from the Times Union Center and next to the Omni/Marriott. With its tower, residents could easily have a river view over the top of the T-U center and Landing park too.
Lol I'll crack the jokes this will never get built. Just more renderings.
Agreed, that building is way to awesome to get built here, let alone anywhere.
Quote"There are a lot of metrics here we find very similar to Nashville almost 10, 12, 13 years ago and they exploded," Fetner said.
Mr. Fetner would be wise to compare the competence (or the lack thereof) of city leadership in Nashville to Jacksonville.
Let's not kid ourselves, this is never going to get built.
vicupstate - You hit the nail on the head. The ineptitude of our local government is what is holding this city back. As amazing as this rendering is, I give it a 1% of ever breaking ground.
I like the design. It interfaces with the park at many levels, including where the Main Street ramp will be. It follows the orientation requirements and fits and looks much better than a square building with elevated gardens and restaurants. I think the mimic of Wells Fargo is fine and makes the interface to the park smooth and seamless. Plus, it is an interesting building that does not exist in JAX.
I like the development team's enthusiasm for this project, but if you look at all three companies project history this may be one of their bigger endeavors.
If this is accepted, I encourage the DIA to get the park, The Hardwick and this project moving.
Quote from: jaxjags on April 27, 2022, 01:42:23 PMIf this is accepted, I encourage the DIA to get the park, The Hardwick and this project moving.
Time's ticking.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/26/economy/inflation-recession-economy-deutsche-bank/index.html
Looks like a Mooneyhan project...
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3211.0.html
Quote from: CityLife on April 26, 2022, 08:23:26 PM
Not sure yet how I feel about the base somewhat mirroring the Wells Fargo building, but imo it's a big step up from what we've been seeing proposed and built lately.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/386835_standard.jpeg)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/386830_standard.jpeg?itok=8bffZH6T)
Is it just me, or does this building look much more thinner and slender than in the initial renderings? Will this be a fat building or slender one like this photo/rendering? Btw, I'll bet it gets built. And...I think, if I am not wrong, the City was the one that wanted a tower on that specific parcel of land. I think if built, that location for me is just fine. Can't have a river view from all tall buildings downtown.
Anyone hear ANYTHING on the scoring of the American Lions Project at the former Jacksonville Landing? The meeting was supposed to be yesterday and DIA was supposed to have scored the proposal and reached some type consensus yesterday; or...was an additional 105 days given to hash out the incentives and the tax issue? Please advise. Its eerily quiet concerning this project as something should have come out from that meeting yesterday unless the meeting was cancelled or postponed.
That WAS the scoring meeting, per se. The meeting was really to determine whether to move forward with negotiation with the winning bid. So to speak, American Lions came in 1st place so they voted on whether to negotiate with the "winner", which they chose to do so.
Quote from: Steve on May 19, 2022, 04:58:01 PM
That WAS the scoring meeting, per se. The meeting was really to determine whether to move forward with negotiation with the winning bid. So to speak, American Lions came in 1st place so they voted on whether to negotiate with the "winner", which they chose to do so.
Thanks Steve. Maybe we'll hear something "news wise" in the next few days. There was an issue regarding payment of taxes, i.e., American Lions wanted to pay much less and DIA wanted them to pay much much more. Hopefully this will be off and running and we'll have the first new significant skyscraper to host intense cranes to build it in quite some time.
Well everyone; I was not looking for it, was surfing through Yahoo News and here's what I found. Looks like we MIGHT have a NEW SKYSCRAPER competing for the Jax Area Sky very soon unless a deep recession or foreign attack snuffs it out. Here's the link below; enjoy.
THE GRAND JEWEL OF DOWNTOWN GETS APPROVAL FOR NEGOTIATION
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/the-grand-jewel-of-downtown-gets-approval-for-negotiation/ar-AAXr2zx?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=6e8291cf663348db8615f156b3d4ed2f
$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 21, 2022, 09:21:48 PM
$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.
Cool Beans. When do you think they'll start unearthing dirt? One more thing; if they build that 40 story residential high rise, they'd better ensure it is on stilts or raised up 2 or more floors from the ground. That area floods like nothing when a tropical storm or hurricane comes through.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 21, 2022, 09:21:48 PM
$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.
Capital Improvement Project?
^ basically correct - CIP is Capital Improvements Plan
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 21, 2022, 09:21:48 PM
$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.
They've been value engineering their plans over the last few months, from what I've seen here and there.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/photos/i-M6GfJLf/0/L/i-M6GfJLf-L.jpg)
If $25mm is the big spend, then all that P/W submitted isn't going to pencil out.... and the changes I've seen, certainly reflect this.
There'$50mm sitting in a special parks enhancement fund, that looks too tempting not to be ultimately swept into all of the money needed for Shipyards, Met Park and Lenny's Lawn once these things go out to bid and the cost to construct all greatly exceed what was budgeted. Otherwise we're in store for some very basic-looking riverfront 'park-space'.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 25, 2021, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 10:41:24 AM
After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.
The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.
Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.
Setting aside the proposed building on the PAD site (which as envisioned, could probably top $80mm by itself)... I think the Perkins & Will plan would be more in the range of $65mm-$85mm with value engineering, and with annual operating and maintenance costs in the $5mm range. That $65-85mm figure doesn't include the unrealistic marsh creation.
Another very important point to make as far as timelines- COJ has just started down the legal process to take back Sisters City plaza from Mainstreet Capital Partners. All of these plans are based on the City taking back possession of Sisters City Plaza and subsequently realigning Hogan/Water/Independent Drive in order to create a larger site (and potential PAD site). It took COJ more than 4 years to go through the process of taking back the Jacksonville Landing East parking parcel from Sleiman (COJ lost that ruling, btw). Courts currently have pretty sizeable backlogs due to the pandemic. I think you are talking a minimum two years just to get a sense of whether that parcel is even in play.
For perspective, the price tag for all of the bulkhead work along the Northbank Riverwalk from CSX to Berkman is now well over $50mm. Additional perspective comes from the recently completed St Pete Pier Park, which had a price tag of about $3.6mm/acre.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/)
$25 million won't really get you close to a world class park or even the version of the Landing that was demolished. Perhaps, there's a vision of more investment coming down the line?
Quote from: fieldafm on July 22, 2022, 04:04:43 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 21, 2022, 09:21:48 PM
$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.
They've been value engineering their plans over the last few months, from what I've seen here and there.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/photos/i-M6GfJLf/0/L/i-M6GfJLf-L.jpg)
If $25mm is the big spend, then all that P/W submitted isn't going to pencil out.... and the changes I've seen, certainly reflect this.
There'$50mm sitting in a special parks enhancement fund, that looks too tempting not to be ultimately swept into all of the money needed for Shipyards, Met Park and Lenny's Lawn once these things go out to bid and the cost to construct all greatly exceed what was budgeted. Otherwise we're in store for some very basic-looking riverfront 'park-space'.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 25, 2021, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 10:41:24 AM
After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.
The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.
Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.
Setting aside the proposed building on the PAD site (which as envisioned, could probably top $80mm by itself)... I think the Perkins & Will plan would be more in the range of $65mm-$85mm with value engineering, and with annual operating and maintenance costs in the $5mm range. That $65-85mm figure doesn't include the unrealistic marsh creation.
Another very important point to make as far as timelines- COJ has just started down the legal process to take back Sisters City plaza from Mainstreet Capital Partners. All of these plans are based on the City taking back possession of Sisters City Plaza and subsequently realigning Hogan/Water/Independent Drive in order to create a larger site (and potential PAD site). It took COJ more than 4 years to go through the process of taking back the Jacksonville Landing East parking parcel from Sleiman (COJ lost that ruling, btw). Courts currently have pretty sizeable backlogs due to the pandemic. I think you are talking a minimum two years just to get a sense of whether that parcel is even in play.
For perspective, the price tag for all of the bulkhead work along the Northbank Riverwalk from CSX to Berkman is now well over $50mm. Additional perspective comes from the recently completed St Pete Pier Park, which had a price tag of about $3.6mm/acre.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/)
Oh oh; here we go again. Maybe there's some things behind the scenes that are happening we don't know about. Maybe they're value engineering, serious scale down of the park, to try and accommodate that scraper; from what I read, the City really wants that thing built.
well at least the firm that submitted the better design (IMO) on The Landing was awarded the Shipyards West park design
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 25, 2022, 09:50:11 AM
well at least the firm that submitted the better design (IMO) on The Landing was awarded the Shipyards West park design
All I can say about that is.......WOW.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 25, 2022, 09:50:11 AM
well at least the firm that submitted the better design (IMO) on The Landing was awarded the Shipyards West park design
Their design was really out of touch even down to the boat slips. The current is too strong for the layout at that point in the river. But, I can state I would have liked to see more imaginative designs.
^ you may be confusing them with the 3rd design from Olin in Philadelphia
We are still where we started with the first 50 million dollars just to get to a blank space. The apology dipstick Curry should give us for kicking this city in the sack should be epic.
Quote from: JeffreyS on July 27, 2022, 12:29:41 AM
We are still where we started with the first 50 million dollars just to get to a blank space. The apology dipstick Curry should give us for kicking this city in the sack should be epic.
LOL..."dipstick Curry." LOLOL...does a quart need to be added or is he just bone dry?
Here's an article that kind of sums it all up, you can be optimistic or pessimistic relative to what's said in this article; enjoy.
My feeling from reading this article? "DON'T GET YOUR HOPES UP."
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2022/07/27/mayor-lenny-curry-budget-hope-jacksonville-florida-riverfront-parks/10139854002/
Quote from: thelakelander on July 22, 2022, 07:14:03 PM
$25 million won't really get you close to a world class park or even the version of the Landing that was demolished. Perhaps, there's a vision of more investment coming down the line?
$4 mill an acre is about what it costs, more or less, for comparable high quality park space. I believe this park is about 6 acres, so $25 mill would be in line with that. Of course, devil's in the details.
What are the comps at $4 million per acre?
Darn. If I had won the Billion Dollar MegaBall, I would have funded the whole shebang.
Jacksonville's loss ... :D
Quote from: thelakelander on August 01, 2022, 04:16:35 PM
What are the comps at $4 million per acre?
Clearwater is spending $85m for about 24 acres.
https://patch.com/florida/clearwater/heres-what-clearwater-imagines-it-will-get-84-million
Detroit did 22 acres at $50m
Cincinnati did 30 acres at $120m
DuPont has more info/examples.
I was thinking more on the level of Campus Martius Park in downtown Detroit. That $20 million park is 1.2 acres. Another is Washington Park in Cincinnati. That 8 acre space was renovated for $46 million a decade or so ago.
Below link will tell the latest on the American Lions LLC 44 story residential project on the one-acre parcel on the former Landing Site (Jax Plaza?). Progress or not? Term sheet doesn't really mean much at this point. Final agreement is the thing.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/american-lions-granted-deadline-extension
Details of the incentive package American Lions negotiated with the DIA below, via the Times-Union:
(https://snipboard.io/Ju0c1f.jpg)
Full (paywalled) article here:
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2022/09/13/downtown-jacksonville-landing-apartment-tower-incentives/8061683001/
$1 for a 6-month subscription offer:
https://cm.jacksonville.com/specialoffer
$22 for 2 years here:
https://cm.jacksonville.com/specialoffer?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook%20instagram&barBuild=atoms-pid&utm_term=Image_JPEG_FLASHSALE&utm_content=Image_JPEG_FLASHSALE&offer=W-6L&utm_Campaign=2022FLASH&gps-source=FBDA222NEWS&utm_campaign=Q12022_Conversion_Purchase_Prospecting&utm_id=62b2238fbc4de3405d352e93&fbclid=IwAR3zc9FOE7e6M4SntwPsd20zj4IKboEaJEqGCCaICAI-gujzGxhDud6TLqk
What is the size of the parcel that would be donated?
I assume the 'grants' are probably the equivalent of the city taxes it would pay?
Quote from: vicupstate on September 13, 2022, 12:37:59 PM
What is the size of the parcel that would be donated?
I assume the 'grants' are probably the equivalent of the city taxes it would pay?
Looks like a REV grant. I'm curious if whatever the base tax generated will be, is then specifically earmarked in a fund dedicated to maintaining the whatever-value-engineered-public park that is ultimately built on Lenny's Lawn years from now.
My assumption is that this below-market junior lien represents the hole in the developer's capital stack. Property tax abatements/REV grants are useful tools. But, I don't know why taxpayers are in the business of loaning money to developers of luxury housing. That drains on the budgets of Community Redevelopment Areas and defeats the purpose for having CRA's in the first place. For example, almost two decades have passed and the City still has loans outstanding on the 11East and Carling buildings that drains on the DIA's Northbank CRA budget. I believe there is another decade to go until those loans are paid off.
Also to quote current Chief Administrative Officer for the City of Jacksonville from 2015:
QuoteThrowing money, nearly $12 million, at special interests while kids are being gunned down in the street because of fewer cops is not simply outrageous it's disgusting.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/theres-been-no-public-input-on-reusing-the-landing/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/theres-been-no-public-input-on-reusing-the-landing/)
We are now approaching $100mm in public spending on this site. I'm not great with math, but that's a lot more than $12mm. Last night a helicopter was flying over our house most of the night, looking for the murderer for the fifth murder that has occurred within 3 miles from our house this year. One of those murdered was a young woman I have known for 12 years.
Maybe the murderers aren't the only crooks in this town.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 13, 2022, 02:48:00 PM
Looks like a REV grant.
Looks like they described a REV grant in the way that would draw the most ire from the general public.
It should read, "the developer is partially exempt from the net increase in taxable value of the property for the first 20 years. The value of that exemption is estimated to be $28.6M"
Currently it reads like this "$28.6M your taxes will be paid to the developer in annual installments for 20 years".
Quote from: fieldafm on September 13, 2022, 02:48:00 PM
Last night a helicopter was flying over our house most of the night, looking for the murderer for the fifth murder that has occurred within 3 miles from our house this year. One of those murders was a young woman I have known for 12 years.
Man, so awful.
Really sorry to hear this, Mike.
Start construction in 2024 and end in 2027? A LOT can happen between now and then. Too much going on in the nation and the world itself to even have too high of hopes for this project. I hope it is built. 2027 I will be 70 going on 71 years old if I make it until then, and the rest of you will be either approaching your 60's, or in your late 50's. Good luck on seeing this one built. Is the late start on the tower because they will be building the Park first, or for some other reason? In West Central and South Florida, Towers seem to go up almost in knee jerk fashion; here in Jax, "snail's pace." Please advise.
Article now up also on Daily Record
HERE is what happened at the DIA meeting today (vote) on the 44 story apartment building proposed to be built on the old Jacksonville Landing site:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/downtown-investment-authority-approves-44-story-residential-high-rise-at-former-landing-site/ar-AA11S71Z
Not SUPER TALL but I'll take it.
HU
If they can pull it off, it will be the tallest built in downtown since the Barnett Tower +30 years ago. Seeing how much the skylines of Florida's other major cities have grown since that time, it's crazy realizing that.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 15, 2022, 08:28:40 PM
If they can pull it off, it will be the tallest built in downtown since the Barnett Tower +30 years ago. Seeing how much the skylines of Florida's other major cities have grown since that time, it's crazy realizing that.
Tell me about it Lake. Though Orlando and Fort Lauderdale don't have the Height (no pun intended), they both now have numerous mid-rise to talls around the 400 foot or higher range, and density with towers between 300 to 400 feet. Jax is traditionally a "tall" city, and with 900k pop we need to try to live up to that.
I just hope they don't Value Engineer it to a 15-story plain gray cereal box.
Yes, the DIA has to approve the final design, but when have they shown any backbone when a developer asks for changes?
Here is more info, from WOKV, and the Jax Daily Record of what's going on with this new addition to Jax' skyline:
https://www.wokv.com/news/local/dia-approves-property-disposition-incentive-package-riverfront-plaza/6PJIJMOYKVDP5K2ZWT7TWQGMQQ/
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-committee-advances-dollar36-million-incentives-deal-for-american-lions-tower
DIA slipped an updated plan for the park space into the presentation this afternoon.
Original is the first image, new is the second.
Looks like the living shoreline didn't make the cut.
Most significantly, it also looks like the Destination Play Space was moved off the river onto the spot where the Park Pavilion building was in the original concept.
The empty circular spot where the Destination Play Space used to be will now be RFP'd "at a later date" for restaurant space.
Also, looks like the "Rain Garden" was replaced with a reflective pool near the base of the sculpture.
(https://snipboard.io/HrERO4.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/lNUuvS.jpg)
Disappointing to see the civic building axed. Makes me wonder how serious the city will be about maintaining and activating their new crown jewel if the most active part is value engineered away. But others here did predict it would be underfunded.
No surprise to see the living shoreline die. And I kind of like the reflecting pool.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 16, 2022, 12:50:42 AM
Disappointing to see the civic building axed.
Equally disappointing are the timelines.
Sounds like we're still a year away from the start of construction on the park.
And we're giving American Lions a full two years to get DDRB approval, and until 2028 to finish construction.
Assuming the tower happens, I can't imagine they'd be able to build effectively in that space without taking over a large portion of the park for staging.
Feels like we're potentially looking at another six years before the space is finished.
Even if everything is built, it's a pretty colossal failure of decision making by the DIA to rush through an emergency demolition of the Landing, under the auspices that the space would be easier to market to private developers as a clean slate (clearly a false narrative given that American Lions was the only one to respond), only to let it sit vacant for close to a decade.
Even if we were dead set on demolishing the Landing, we could have given the existing businesses another 3 or 4 years without sacrificing anything.
Amazing how we turned away a successful, motivated partner with a great site plan over a $12 million subsidy, only to spend $23 million to buy him out, $2 million to demolish the property, $25 million to turn it into a park, and $36 million to subsidize residential.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 16, 2022, 12:18:55 AM
DIA slipped an updated plan for the park space into the presentation this afternoon.
Value engineering was pretty clearly coming at some point. And the decisions seem to be exactly the big ticket items you'd get rid of so you can afford generally building the plan at all. Seems like a lot of restaurant space to be adding though, hopefully they'll actually get filled.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 16, 2022, 08:40:53 AM
Equally disappointing are the timelines.
Sounds like we're still a year away from the start of construction on the park.
And we're giving American Lions a full two years to get DDRB approval, and until 2028 to finish construction.
Assuming the tower happens, I can't imagine they'd be able to build effectively in that space without taking over a large portion of the park for staging.
Feels like we're potentially looking at another six years before the space is finished.
Even if everything is built, it's a pretty colossal failure of decision making by the DIA to rush through an emergency demolition of the Landing, under the auspices that the space would be easier to market to private developers as a clean slate (clearly a false narrative given that American Lions was the only one to respond), only to let it sit vacant for close to a decade.
Even if we were dead set on demolishing the Landing, we could have given the existing businesses another 3 or 4 years without sacrificing anything.
Amazing how we turned away a successful, motivated partner with a great site plan over a $12 million subsidy, only to spend $23 million to buy him out, $2 million to demolish the property, $25 million to turn it into a park, and $36 million to subsidize residential.
Is there a reason they'd have to use the park vs the parking lot for staging?
But yes, this has been an absolutely ridiculous, long saga to placate one politician's ego over sticking it to political enemies. Shame of course that taxpayers are the ones paying for it.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 16, 2022, 05:22:12 PM
Value engineering was pretty clearly coming at some point. And the decisions seem to be exactly the big ticket items you'd get rid of so you can afford generally building the plan at all. Seems like a lot of restaurant space to be adding though, hopefully they'll actually get filled.
The only things removed at the moment are the living shoreline, which was never ever ever realistic, and the park pavilion, which is being switched out for a waterfront restaurant. Remember, the winning design was purely conceptual. The most expensive (and controversial) single item still remains in the updated design: the sculpture.
We already had a park with a restaurant... River City Brewing. How did that turn out? The park became an apartment complex. Want a restaurant, put it in the tower.
This is just the beginning of removing the green space and turning it over more and more to developers. Outrageous!
The Curry regime has set our downtown back at least 30 years. Many mayors like to look back on their times in office and think of all the positive changes they brought about. Look what we have lost since we lucked-out with Lenny. Knowing local and state politics, he''ll probably be replaced with someone much like himself. We lost a lot, but at least they didn't get away with JEA.
Curious if they plan to replace the destination play space. If they don't I think that's a pretty big miss IMO.
At a minimum I think they need to designate a space for some sort of destination playground.
Quote from: Steve on September 16, 2022, 07:49:00 PM
Curious if they plan to replace the destination play space. If they don't I think that's a pretty big miss IMO.
At a minimum I think they need to designate a space for some sort of destination playground.
Isn't that the part near the top?
Quote from: Snaketoz on September 16, 2022, 07:39:25 PM
The Curry regime has set our downtown back at least 30 years. Many mayors like to look back on their times in office and think of all the positive changes they brought about. Look what we have lost since we lucked-out with Lenny. Knowing local and state politics, he''ll probably be replaced with someone much like himself. We lost a lot, but at least they didn't get away with JEA.
It all comes down to voters deciding whether they care enough about their city to make a decision on who runs it.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 16, 2022, 08:34:17 PM
Quote from: Steve on September 16, 2022, 07:49:00 PM
Curious if they plan to replace the destination play space. If they don't I think that's a pretty big miss IMO.
At a minimum I think they need to designate a space for some sort of destination playground.
Isn't that the part near the top?
Correct, they've essentially just swapped the Civic Building and Destination Play Space's locations with each other, and made the Civic Building restaurant space to be RFP'd at a later date.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 16, 2022, 08:40:53 AM
Amazing how we turned away a successful, motivated partner with a great site plan over a $12 million subsidy, only to spend $23 million to buy him out, $2 million to demolish the property, $25 million to turn it into a park, and $36 million to subsidize residential.
Nobody likes to hear the "we told you so" line but it is what it is and a big reason why I don't waste my time talking Landing talk anymore. It was clear as day that officials have no clue of what they were doing when pushing to raze the building and lose +30 active businesses. It was also clear that once razed, it would be an inactive hole in the middle of downtown for a decade and the public would drop nearly $100 million in tax money for a replacement.
Kinda sounds like a place, a City to just skip. Convoluted. Or worse.
And if inclined to open public park space on waterway, even just a tiny sliver...... skip this place.
QuoteAmazing how we turned away a successful, motivated partner with a great site plan over a $12 million subsidy, only to spend $23 million to buy him out, $2 million to demolish the property, $25 million to turn it into a park, and $36 million to subsidize residential.
Another example of how partisan politics ruins Jacksonville for everyone. Running a city is rarely an ideological endeavor, certainly not for the vast majority of cities, many of whom don't even have partisan elections. Yet for Jacksonville it is a drag on everything the city does or attempts to do.
All it would take is a citizen initiated charter amendment to put a stop to it.
Quote from: Florida Power And Light on September 18, 2022, 09:33:35 PM
Kinda sounds like a place, a City to just skip. Convoluted. Or worse.
And if inclined to open public park space on waterway, even just a tiny sliver...... skip this place.
If it wasn't for the fact that I was born there, love the place, and have such a history from "back in the day" there, I would agree with you; but I can't. I will continue to root and pull for Jacksonville until my last breath. But the leadership does suck, tremendously. It's one thing to suck, but to suck and not even be good at it and completely worthless.......that's all I'm going to say.
Quote from: vicupstate on September 19, 2022, 08:24:57 AM
All it would take is a citizen initiated charter amendment to put a stop to it.
Who's our next Bill Brinton?
I was watching the news this morning and they were interviewing people about their thoughts on the old landing site. One woman said she wishes the city would add more family entertainment options downtown and I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair.
Now you may ask why I found that amusing. My company has been trying for 3 years to put one or even multiple entertainment options in the downtown core, but the city is not the least bit interested in any of the options we tried, so we moved our efforts to the most urban area of town we could.
I was truly surprise at the we only want office, restaurants, bars or retail attitude. once you eat or get of work wouldn't be nice to have something fun to do afterwards.....not in downtown Jacksonville unfortunately.
Quote from: CG7 on September 21, 2022, 11:27:27 AM
I was watching the news this morning and they were interviewing people about their thoughts on the old landing site. One woman said she wishes the city would add more family entertainment options downtown and I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair.
Now you may ask why I found that amusing. My company has been trying for 3 years to put one or even multiple entertainment options in the downtown core, but the city is not the least bit interested in any of the options we tried, so we moved our efforts to the most urban area of town we could.
I was truly surprise at the we only want office, restaurants, bars or retail attitude. once you eat or get of work wouldn't be nice to have something fun to do afterwards.....not in downtown Jacksonville unfortunately.
Would be a shame for a city with seemingly 100 miles of waterfront to actually have water front entertainment.
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on September 21, 2022, 12:21:58 PM
Quote from: CG7 on September 21, 2022, 11:27:27 AM
I was watching the news this morning and they were interviewing people about their thoughts on the old landing site. One woman said she wishes the city would add more family entertainment options downtown and I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair.
Now you may ask why I found that amusing. My company has been trying for 3 years to put one or even multiple entertainment options in the downtown core, but the city is not the least bit interested in any of the options we tried, so we moved our efforts to the most urban area of town we could.
I was truly surprise at the we only want office, restaurants, bars or retail attitude. once you eat or get of work wouldn't be nice to have something fun to do afterwards.....not in downtown Jacksonville unfortunately.
Would be a shame for a city with seemingly 100 miles of waterfront to actually have water front entertainment.
I don't get it either. Only thing I can think of is maybe they're afraid that entertainment venues would attract various types of crime (as if bars won't?). If I'm not mistaken, towards the end, the Landing was kind of getting really crime ridden. That's the only thing I can think of as a reason why they do not want entertainment venues in the downtown core.
The tower made it through DIA today. Last stop, Council.
According to Boyer, $25 million is enough to "fully fund the work" so I guess the value engineering has been enough.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-approves-dollar36-9-million-deal-for-american-lions-proposed-44-story-tower
I hope it gets built, and hope that more comes for our city; however, I hate to sound pessimistic, dark, foreboding, or even negative, but the U.S.A. was threatened twice today to be nuked. And this comes from someone, our enemies almost daily. I hate this time in our history. Getting back on subject, beautiful building, park will be nice, I really believe there's more to come for Jax if our nation and this world can just get it together and quit acting like evil wayward brats. I hope we get to enjoy it all before it all goes up into the atmosphere.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 21, 2022, 09:13:41 PM
The tower made it through DIA today. Last stop, Council.
According to Boyer, $25 million is enough to "fully fund the work" so I guess the value engineering has been enough.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-approves-dollar36-9-million-deal-for-american-lions-proposed-44-story-tower
Does the $25 million include the JAX sculpture? Where does that stand?
Other than adding residents downtown, how does the proposed tower help street level activity? It reminds me of the Landing: Orientation toward the river with little or no integration with the Downtown grid. The building looks like a nice addition to the skyline, just like the Four Seasons might. But, I don't see either of these projects substantially moving the mojo (to quote Khan) of the core forward much.
Have the Strand and the Peninsula energized the Southbank's night/day life? I don't see it. Mortons, the Wine Cellar, Crawdaddy's... have all come and gone and not much growth to replace them. More is happening going into and toward San Marco than on or near the Southbank's riverfront. I expect the same for the Northbank the way DIA is proceeding. Lot's of residences with nothing to do... little retail, restaurant, entertainment, expansive green space...taking advantage of the river....promoting our history and cultural institutions....robust public urban transit....the lack of all these elements assures a diminished core for years to come.
I guess I have seen too many "missing the boat" projects over the years to believe these projects are going to be the savior of the core. I expect they will be hot properties initially and then the novelty will wear off and we will be back to the past. Ironically, the most robust urban core areas are the ones not managed by DIA: San Marco, Springfield, Riverside...and, Brooklyn, mostly in spite of DIA.
That building is too tall for that area, hopefully they make it about a dozen floors shorter
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 21, 2022, 09:56:06 PM
Does the $25 million include the JAX sculpture? Where does that stand?
Nope, the sculpture will be funded separately, with the hope being that sponsorship/private donation will cover a large chunk of it.
I'm not sure if a final decision has been made on the sculpture - sounds like the DIA was leaning heavily toward a tweaked version of the original Jax sculpture - but DIA is definitely moving forward with the plan to have a major sculpture integrated with the park by the time it opens.
Subsidy is steep, but if nothing else, having expensive residential in this location should ensure better security and upkeep at the park (especially if a portion of incremental tax revenue is reserved for park maintenance as has been discussed in the past), and I really like the integrated retail and rooftop components.
I look forward to imagining the grand vision as I walk through dead sod and tumbleweed in the coming years.
haven't been on the forum for a while. Has anyone suggested swapping the leadership of Jax with the leadership of Greenville? Greenville has done an amazing job with central planning, and as I bet most of you know, there is no shortage of entertainment downtown. Lots of ways to compare the opportunities in both places, but the obvious difference is leadership and vision. Or as Khan would say, Mojo.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 22, 2022, 09:43:09 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 21, 2022, 09:56:06 PM
Does the $25 million include the JAX sculpture? Where does that stand?
Nope, the sculpture will be funded separately, with the hope being that sponsorship/private donation will cover a large chunk of it.
never mind that the winning firm said their original design could be done for around $15 million, not including the sculpture.
My guess is they will likely have cover on the cost increase because of significant inflation. I'm not saying it's entirely that; there were concerns about the price when they submitted, but I bet that will work.
Quote from: CG7 on September 21, 2022, 11:27:27 AM
I was watching the news this morning and they were interviewing people about their thoughts on the old landing site. One woman said she wishes the city would add more family entertainment options downtown and I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair.
Now you may ask why I found that amusing. My company has been trying for 3 years to put one or even multiple entertainment options in the downtown core, but the city is not the least bit interested in any of the options we tried, so we moved our efforts to the most urban area of town we could.
I was truly surprise at the we only want office, restaurants, bars or retail attitude. once you eat or get of work wouldn't be nice to have something fun to do afterwards.....not in downtown Jacksonville unfortunately.
What did y'all propose?
Quote from: JaGoaT on September 22, 2022, 12:34:38 AM
That building is too tall for that area, hopefully they make it about a dozen floors shorter
Wrooooooong...and NO. Leave it as is...it really should be 12 floors taller.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 22, 2022, 09:43:36 PM
Quote from: CG7 on September 21, 2022, 11:27:27 AM
I was watching the news this morning and they were interviewing people about their thoughts on the old landing site. One woman said she wishes the city would add more family entertainment options downtown and I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair.
Now you may ask why I found that amusing. My company has been trying for 3 years to put one or even multiple entertainment options in the downtown core, but the city is not the least bit interested in any of the options we tried, so we moved our efforts to the most urban area of town we could.
I was truly surprise at the we only want office, restaurants, bars or retail attitude. once you eat or get of work wouldn't be nice to have something fun to do afterwards.....not in downtown Jacksonville unfortunately.
What did y'all propose?
We proposed multiple options that were all family friendly, but the type of facility isn't the issue the CBD is not zoned for any family entertainment options.
Quote from: CG7 on September 23, 2022, 09:15:49 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 22, 2022, 09:43:36 PM
Quote from: CG7 on September 21, 2022, 11:27:27 AM
I was watching the news this morning and they were interviewing people about their thoughts on the old landing site. One woman said she wishes the city would add more family entertainment options downtown and I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair.
Now you may ask why I found that amusing. My company has been trying for 3 years to put one or even multiple entertainment options in the downtown core, but the city is not the least bit interested in any of the options we tried, so we moved our efforts to the most urban area of town we could.
I was truly surprise at the we only want office, restaurants, bars or retail attitude. once you eat or get of work wouldn't be nice to have something fun to do afterwards.....not in downtown Jacksonville unfortunately.
What did y'all propose?
We proposed multiple options that were all family friendly, but the type of facility isn't the issue the CBD is not zoned for any family entertainment options.
PUD's are a relatively easy way to work around zoning issues.
I'm not sure of the site locations evaluated or the specific use (Dave and Busters, axe throwing or a movie cinema would be considered family entertainment but all are very different) but various family entertainment oriented uses will generally fit within the zoning overlay.
^ I note there are theaters and museums along with the convention center, hotel ballrooms and restaurants/bars that feature all kinds of entertainment activities Downtown and there used to be movie theaters (the Florida Theater still runs movies sometimes, as I recall). If you include the stadiums and arena, you have most everything else covered. So, one would think what "harm" would one more venue provide unless something like parking is an issue. Was the venue to be located, say, on the Riverwalk? Maybe that is a specialized situation.
But, overall, agree, entertainment options need to be a part of the solution to Downtown.
Quote from: heights unknown on September 19, 2022, 11:37:13 AM
Quote from: Florida Power And Light on September 18, 2022, 09:33:35 PM
Kinda sounds like a place, a City to just skip. Convoluted. Or worse.
And if inclined to open public park space on waterway, even just a tiny sliver...... skip this place.
If it wasn't for the fact that I was born there, love the place, and have such a history from "back in the day" there, I would agree with you; but I can't. I will continue to root and pull for Jacksonville until my last breath. But the leadership does suck, tremendously. It's one thing to suck, but to suck and not even be good at it and completely worthless.......that's all I'm going to say.
I was born and raised there too and have family that goes back generations... family that was business owners, land owners, heck there were even a TV news anchor and a mayor among my family. But at some point you realize "this place will never change" and move on. If I didn't still have a ton of family there I would not continue following the goings-on. Sad!
Quote from: Bativac on September 24, 2022, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on September 19, 2022, 11:37:13 AM
Quote from: Florida Power And Light on September 18, 2022, 09:33:35 PM
Kinda sounds like a place, a City to just skip. Convoluted. Or worse.
And if inclined to open public park space on waterway, even just a tiny sliver...... skip this place.
If it wasn't for the fact that I was born there, love the place, and have such a history from "back in the day" there, I would agree with you; but I can't. I will continue to root and pull for Jacksonville until my last breath. But the leadership does suck, tremendously. It's one thing to suck, but to suck and not even be good at it and completely worthless.......that's all I'm going to say.
I was born and raised there too and have family that goes back generations... family that was business owners, land owners, heck there were even a TV news anchor and a mayor among my family. But at some point you realize "this place will never change" and move on. If I didn't still have a ton of family there I would not continue following the goings-on. Sad!
Yes, it is sad; I will not refute or disagree on that, but, I won't give up on Jax. It's like a football team that you know can do the job, and even win, but they keep winning, year after year, no more than 4 or 5 games. Do you give up on them? Or do you continue to root for them, pull for them, and stand by their side? Yes, it's sad, but we can't just give up, and, IMO, that's not the American way. I don't like the way our nation has become, but I won't give up on the good ole U.S.A.! Got it?
The city has changed a great deal over the years, much of it for the better. Unfortunately Downtown has not seen the growth other areas have.
I do agree. It has improved quite a bit. I also think DT has had some great successes with the restorations. Every little improvement gets us closer. Since w live in Avondale, lots of houses being refurbished.
Any rumblings on the progress here? According to DIA's October minutes, 100% design was expected "by January." I don't see anything related to the Landing or Perkins & Will in the agenda for this month.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on January 13, 2023, 10:22:25 AM
Any rumblings on the progress here? According to DIA's October minutes, 100% design was expected "by January." I don't see anything related to the Landing or Perkins & Will in the agenda for this month.
Update on riverfront projects via DIA & other community partners will be Feb 8th @ 5:30 - 7:30, WJCT.
Should be a formal announcement soon.
Quote from: fsu813 on January 13, 2023, 11:18:32 AM
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on January 13, 2023, 10:22:25 AM
Any rumblings on the progress here? According to DIA's October minutes, 100% design was expected "by January." I don't see anything related to the Landing or Perkins & Will in the agenda for this month.
Update on riverfront projects via DIA, with other community partners in attendance, will be Feb 8th @ 5:30 - 7:30, WJCT.
Should be a formal announcement soon.
Cool, thanks!
Fyi ~
Riverfront 2025: A Look Ahead
Co-hosted by Build Up Downtown, Riverfront Parks Now, Jessie Ball duPont Fund and COJ/DIA.
February 8th, 5-8pm at WJCT Studios the Main Library.
Eventbrite ~ https://riverfront2025.eventbrite.com
Facebook ~ https://fb.me/e/42gij0ezf
LinkedIn ~ https://www.linkedin.com/events/riverfront2025-alookahead7023144253673340928/
Will be limited to 200 attendees, registration required. Going to update all the various projects, both public & private, going on near the Downtown riverfront. Q&A included.
Please note that the venue of the Riverfront 2025: A Look Ahead event on Feb 8th has been moved to the Main Library, which can accommodate more people.
The original location ran out of seating in 24 hours (a great sign of interest).
Any idea if the main presentation will be streamed, or in-person only?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 08, 2023, 11:58:59 AM
Any idea if the main presentation will be streamed, or in-person only?
Yes, it's at capacity again. So if you don't have a ticket yet, there will be a Zoom option as well (if you register).
Should be interesting. Definitely worth the price of admission, at least.
Quote from: fsu813 on February 08, 2023, 12:06:38 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 08, 2023, 11:58:59 AM
Any idea if the main presentation will be streamed, or in-person only?
Yes, it's at capacity again. So if you don't have a ticket yet, there will be a Zoom option as well (if you register).
Should be interesting. Definitely worth the price of admission, at least.
Thanks!
Is the Zoom not working for anyone else?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 08, 2023, 05:17:16 PM
Is the Zoom not working for anyone else?
Maybe they're keeping the virtual access closed until the presentation is scheduled to start at 5:30. I believe 5-5:30 was just for networking.
I didn't make it back downtown in time.
On the Zoom, but no audio?
Watching the Zoom now. Came on at 5:30.
Unfortunately, they did an awful job setting up for a Zoom stream. They're sharing the video stream, but not the audio stream, and whatever way they're capturing the audio from the microphone is horrible.
So what transpired?
It's still going on. They ended up just muting the stream so most people stopped watching, although they're still sharing slides.
So far the presentation has largely run through some lovely renderings of a bunch of planned parks, and unfortunately I find it hard to take any of it with more than a grain of salt. They're calling this event Riverfront 2025 but I can't help but doubt that timeline already. If they've mentioned a price tag I haven't heard it yet.
It just ended.
I gave up around 6 when it became apparent the audio wasn't coming back. What I saw was not very informative.
For anyone who attended in person -- was there any substantive information on the Landing park?
Quote from: blizz01 on February 08, 2023, 06:47:00 PM
So what transpired?
Like Marcus, I couldn't make it to the in-person meeting, so I attended via the DIA's Zoom link.
The Zoom started with 160 people watching the presentation.
Less than 10 minutes in, the audio died, nobody bothered to fix it, and about 60% of the audience that was engaged enough to register and attend via Zoom got frustrated and ultimately dropped.
I did stick around and watch the slide presentation though.
There wasn't much context without audio, and the slides themselves contained no hard numbers or timelines.
Absolutely no private development was covered during the presentation (unless it was spoken to), only parks.
Parks covered included:
1)
Artist's Walk. They showed the same renders that have been floating around for about a year (https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/renderings-released-for-new-skate-park/77-039b72e6-574f-46a6-a331-3f28813efdde). Unless it was voiced over, no estimated completion date was mentioned.
2)
Music Heritage Park (Times-Union Center)Same render shown that's been floating around in one form or another for at least two years (https://downtownjacksonville.org/poi/performing-arts-center-music-commons/). Still in planning stages. No timeline for completion, only that it's in the same "planning stages" that it's seemingly been in since 2018.
3)
Riverfront Plaza (Landing Park)Nearly identical to the latest render that I posted on here a few weeks ago that had the children's play area shifted north. Probably the most notable thing to me from the entire presentation tonight was that the Civic Building doesn't seem to have been removed from the park after all, but rather, based on the newest design, it looks like the destination kids play space is on top of the Civic Building. So, essentially, the two areas of the park have been combined into one to free up more lawn space. The new set of renders doesn't look quite as bad as I feared from a value engineering perspective, but I do question how they build what's proposed for only $25 million.
4)
Shipyards WestHard to grasp the vision without audio, but they showed some very early, conceptual designs, including stuff like a restaurant, food hall, kayak launch, sanded beach, etc. I liked the direction, but same as above, I can't imagine you can build what was proposed for $20 million. I'm also glad that even though the Orleck will be a feature at the Western end of the park, we don't appear to be centering the entire park around a risky bet that the Orleck is still there in 10 years.
5)
Met ParkTotally ignored, unless I somehow missed it. It was on the agenda, but not in the presentation. Also no mention of the Flex Field at Daily's Place, which will be turned over to the city as park space as early as August.
6)
Rivers Edge/District Park.
High concept, sprawling, multi-part park renders were shown, encompassing a Northeastern portion, a Central Park, and a marshfront park surrounding a billion dollar mega-development that hasn't come out of the ground since 2018. This one in particular looked like a $40 million project with a $10 million budget in the incentives deal that the DIA passed. No timeline or cost noted.
7)
Friendship Park.Same fountain renders we've been seeing forever, but nothing new that I could see on what the actual St. Johns Park portion would look like.
Then the Zoom abruptly ended with no warning.
Curious to see which private developers are there, and if there is any follow-up talk on timelines or costs.
Optimist in me says that there's a lot of potential along the river if these plans come to fruition. Pessimist in me says we've been seeing a lot of these same park renders for years without anything actually opening, and it kind of felt like the DIA looking for an opportunity to dog, pony, and buy some additional goodwill while all the private development on the river stalls.
My highlights
> Extraordinary response from the public. Something like 700 registered, my guess is 400-ish attended. Packed house. No idea how many were trying to watch on Zoom (audio... le sigh).
> The final, updated design of Riverfront Plaza was shown. That's supppoed to break ground just after JazzFest. The plan is for it to be the city's showpiece.
> the first Shipyards West plan was shown. This was actually a public feedback session, as well. Agency does great work, this is no exception.
> Riverfront Parks Conservancy was officially announced to the public, which will be working with COJ and stakeholders to (ideally) activate, maintain and advise on the Downtown riverfront parks and riverwalk moving forward. That's been a year in the making. Will crawl before it walks, but already has an RFP out to award a grant for riverfront activation, and was just welcomed into the Highline Network (along with the Groundwork Jacksonville/Emerald Trail). Learn more about it here:
https://riverparkjax.org/
If you just watched on Zoom, there were a dozen or so tables outside showcasing various private and private projects. Every table was swamped with people engaging.
Of note: without audio, not sure you could really understand what was going on. Unsure if it was actually recorded or not. Press was there, should be an article or two up by tomorrow AM.
Also of note: this was not discussed, but yeah, additional funds will be requested to make the highly visible parks come to fruition as planned. And as long as Cumber or Ferarro aren't our next Mayor, there seems to be an appetite for it.
Huge thanks to DIA, Build Up Downtown, Jessie Ball DuPont Fund, Jax Parks, and Riverfront Parks Now (which I assist with) for hosting.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 08, 2023, 08:26:22 PM
Optimist in me says that there's a lot of potential along the river if these plans come to fruition. Pessimist in me says we've been seeing a lot of these same park renders for years without anything actually opening, and it kind of felt like the DIA looking for an opportunity to dog, pony, and buy some additional goodwill while all the private development on the river stalls.
A version of this was being planned last summer by Build Up Downtown and Riverfront Parks Now, but the timing wasn't right (COJ budget was being formulated). Brought it up again, DIA needed to do public engagement, so timing was right.
^Thanks for the additional details!
I really wish I was able to hear the Conservancy details, sounds pretty rad.
Any idea if an alternate (non-Zoom) recording was made?
Any updates on Met Park, Hardwick, or the Riverfront Plaza residential tower offered at the tables outside?
Maybe they can reopen the rooftop park on the DT jail! /s
That thing needs to be moved...
Quote from: Jax_Developer on February 09, 2023, 08:30:03 AM
Maybe they can reopen the rooftop park on the DT jail! /s
That thing needs to be moved...
Yeah, move it out west towards (or past) Cecil Airport. With all of this fuss about Riverfront Parks, is Weldon Park (old Hemming) even of any real use or needed anymore? Free up that land/block and build something there in the heart of downtown Jax; we will have more Parks than we can handle very soon, especially and mainly on the window; the focus nowadays is on the Riverfront (relative to Parks) rather than the center or heart of downtown.
First, the former Hemming is now James Weldon Johnson Park - after the Jacksonville resident who wrote "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing"
Second, a 'town square' in front of City Hall, and in the middle of the (hoped for) redevelopment of the area, is not wasted space. Every square inch of downtown can't be filled with mile-high buildings - besides, there are plenty of surface parking lots available for new towers (or even new short buildings).
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 08, 2023, 08:46:02 PM
^Thanks for the additional details!
I really wish I was able to hear the Conservancy details, sounds pretty rad.
Any idea if an alternate (non-Zoom) recording was made?
Any updates on Met Park, Hardwick, or the Riverfront Plaza residential tower offered at the tables outside?
Met Park seems to be in the really early planning stages as there was a table soliciting ideas for what people would like to see. The Hardwick at Ford on Bay had a table but I couldn't find anyone related to that project to talk to. As far as the American Lions project at Riverfront Plaza, negotiations with the city are ongoing but they seemed semi-confident that they can break ground in 2025 if all goes well.
Preston Hollow is planning an April unveiling of the art installation and pavilion at Rivers Edge. A restaurant over the water seems to be a part of their plans as well. Further infrastructure work should begin in the next couple of weeks
Thanks Zac!
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 09, 2023, 09:28:43 AM
First, the former Hemming is now James Weldon Johnson Park - after the Jacksonville resident who wrote "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing"
Second, a 'town square' in front of City Hall, and in the middle of the (hoped for) redevelopment of the area, is not wasted space. Every square inch of downtown can't be filled with mile-high buildings - besides, there are plenty of surface parking lots available for new towers (or even new short buildings).
Second, my bad; getting old and wires get crossed at times. Not looking for mile high buildings bub (though I do like tall towers....they add character to skylines), and never said that. But put something more on those surface lots and empty lots to pack it in (including old Hemming which IMO is not even being used all that much), add density, and cater to not only the downtown crowd and residents, but all of Jax; something the people will have to come downtown for; got it? So calm down, shake off your umbrella, and put your shoes in the right place. It's all good my friend.
I'm glad to hear that the in-person experience was much better than the virtual one. Again, I'm not sure I'm ready to believe that this will all be competently handled, but of course that's for voters to decide next month (and in May). I just want us to get this done and done right.
I'm still not convinced that moving the jail is going to substantially change Downtown's fortunes, especially given the cost to actually accomplish it. The money required would be a lot better spent dealing with any of the other expensive issues Downtown and citywide.
Quote from: heights unknown on February 09, 2023, 02:01:29 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 09, 2023, 09:28:43 AM
First, the former Hemming is now James Weldon Johnson Park - after the Jacksonville resident who wrote "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing"
Second, a 'town square' in front of City Hall, and in the middle of the (hoped for) redevelopment of the area, is not wasted space. Every square inch of downtown can't be filled with mile-high buildings - besides, there are plenty of surface parking lots available for new towers (or even new short buildings).
Second, my bad; getting old and wires get crossed at times. Not looking for mile high buildings bub (though I do like tall towers....they add character to skylines), and never said that. But put something more on those surface lots and empty lots to pack it in (including old Hemming which IMO is not even being used all that much), add density, and cater to not only the downtown crowd and residents, but all of Jax; something the people will have to come downtown for; got it? So calm down, shake off your umbrella, and put your shoes in the right place. It's all good my friend.
Infill is certainly needed downtown, but we're definitely not so pressed for space that getting rid of JWJ is needed or preferred. The money is definitely out there to make investments in building up the way so many other cities are, it's all about how we prioritize and strategize with it.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 09, 2023, 03:04:27 PM
I'm still not convinced that moving the jail is going to substantially change Downtown's fortunes, especially given the cost to actually accomplish it. The money required would be a lot better spent dealing with any of the other expensive issues Downtown and citywide.
I keep hearing conflicting information about the Jail - are we truly hitting a capacity or facility end of life (downtown revitalization aside)?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 09, 2023, 03:04:27 PMI'm still not convinced that moving the jail is going to substantially change Downtown's fortunes, especially given the cost to actually accomplish it. The money required would be a lot better spent dealing with any of the other expensive issues Downtown and citywide.
Agreed. We've spent far, far too much money on subtraction already. We have more than enough land downtown. Let the limited resources go to addition.
QuoteInfill is certainly needed downtown, but we're definitely not so pressed for space that getting rid of JWJ is needed or preferred.
Also agreed. It's been a park/public square since 1857. Hopefully it's still a park/public square in 2057. Main Street Pocket Park, on the other hand, would be a great piece of property to offload to private development and get on the tax rolls.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 08, 2023, 05:52:23 PM
Watching the Zoom now. Came on at 5:30.
Unfortunately, they did an awful job setting up for a Zoom stream. They're sharing the video stream, but not the audio stream, and whatever way they're capturing the audio from the microphone is horrible.
The presentations started at 5:30. The first 30 minutes was for mingling
Quote from: Steve on February 09, 2023, 03:20:52 PMI keep hearing conflicting information about the Jail - are we truly hitting a capacity or facility end of life (downtown revitalization aside)?
The jail/PDF is technically supposed to house around 2,200 inmates. I think we average closer to 3,000, peaking at like 3,500 in the early stages of COVID when we couldn't transfer prisoners easily between the PDF and state prisons. Not sure how that compares to other metros though, and whether the solution would be to build an entire replacement, or just find somewhere else to house the overflow (or, obviously, work harder on the real root of the issue).
In terms of end-of-life, the facility is only around 30 years old. We just put about $1 million into making it ADA compliant, and we also just replaced the entire HVAC system serving the prison.
Kinda feels like the same people saying that the jail is in desperate need of replacement are the same people saying that JEA would go into freefall if we didn't urgently explore privatization, or that the Hart Bridge ramps were badly impeding logistics into Talleyrand and needed to be removed, or that the Landing was holding back downtown development, etc.
One thing's for certain is that we need to make our downtown plans with the assumption that the jail is going to be there for at least another 8-10 years, minimum. It took SIXTEEN YEARS to study, plan, and build the existing facility. We're not going to snap our fingers, start construction of a half-billion dollar prison elsewhere next year, and be ready to move inmates and demolish the old prison by the time the Four Seasons opens. It's just not realistic.
Which is why it's frustrating to hear people casually putting plans for things like a convention center on hold pending the moving of the prison. One doesn't simply move a 3,000 inmate prison overnight. Logistically, it's probably the most complex project we could undertake as a city. And we haven't even explored it yet formally. Totally get the "move the jail" crowd, even though I disagree with it, but at this point in time, it's about as realistic a suggestion as moving the Main Street Bridge.
Some things are worth the cost. And yes, that's exactly why the jail relocation is absolutely an important conversation now. The major redevelopment projects are set to come online before 2030.. So maybe we should explore something before then? Not to mention the land & social benefit.
"Let me build a $100M building next to the city jail." Said virtually no developer ever. This one isn't some talking point.. Incentives for every building? Well that's because there isn't a single Northbank project viable without incentives. Yet everyone cries when incentives are granted. I wonder why the Berkman, a Class A condo building for quality, is worth substantially less than the Southbank's equivalents.
This conversation brings up a basic problem with downtown Jacksonville. The problem I see is that there is no unified community vision. People aren't swimming in the same direction, which ends up with us struggling to create any type of sustained synergy with the district. Count me to among the folk that question if spending $400 million within the next decade to move the jail is the right move from a vibrancy ROI perspective.
Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but that's largely reliant on what we (the community, not a select few) want downtown to be from a vision perspective. Without being able to see the desired end game, I struggle to see why focusing on the jail would be a more valuable public investment, then....say flooding that same $400 million into a compact area of the Northbank core?
I don't inherently disagree with your take. The trade-off in that these incentives are stripping future Jacksonville of a large property tax base. And $$ is being spent now in other ways. Surely there has to be a more creative solution than no solution. Even if there was a long-term plan, I really think that would help get some positive momentum. My 2 cents.
I don't have a problem with giving incentives. I'm a huge fan of them, as downtown has been hurt so bad in the past by self inflicted mistakes that the market isn't there to support a lot of things people want to see. I just believe if there's $400 million to incentive, it would be better spent doing that instead of being burnt on moving the jail at this point.
Fair point, but from reading posts here over time, the users here seem to be way more aware of how a lot of these programs work. The public seems to have a more cynical view on it from my perspective. My opinion stems from being relatively young. I absolutely hate the U2C plan, and that has been earmarked for roughly $400M(?). JAX has been featured by transit channels on youtube, being mocked for the plan..
Not to mention the DIA incentives now have to be topping $1B in REV grants. Divide that by 25, and thats roughly $40M a year on average. Plus the $$ being spent on the parks, plus the reduced tax base from existing buildings near the prison. Other cities have used private development incentives to 'force' public space to be paid for & built by the developer. Another way to share the cost rather than having a decade long 'study' on what to do with some of the best land in JAX. Crazy too how the city hasn't considered doing the superfund sites themselves.
Just super difficult with these big glaring factors that development companies are almost always weary of. Developers like doing what is already known to them. Those are huge uncertainties. Im hopeful for the clustered developments in the Northbank now, maybe that can spark the fire.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2023, 08:32:44 AM
I don't have a problem with giving incentives. I'm a huge fan of them, as downtown has been hurt so bad in the past by self inflicted mistakes that the market isn't there to support a lot of things people want to see. I just believe if there's $400 million to incentive, it would be better spent doing that instead of being burnt on moving the jail at this point.
Or running 10 miles of streetcar down Bay Street through Lavilla and into Brooklyn, and down Main into Springfield.
Or earmarking it for the stadium rebuild.
We've spent such an astronomical amount of money in the last decade on things that have resulted in no net gain for downtown - sinking Coastline into the river, demolishing the Courthouse and Annex, buying out Sleiman, halfway tearing down the Hart Bridge ramps, moving MOSH from a great spot to a worse spot - that I just think we need to really ask ourselves over the next decade if each downtown investment is truly, concretely, immediately additive.
100% aligned with planning for a jail move down the line, and now is the time to start thinking through what that might look like, I just don't think know is the time to be putting significant investment behind it when there are so many other more pressing needs.
Agreed.. probably why there is such a splintered opinion. Hard to know where to focus next.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 10, 2023, 09:13:19 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2023, 08:32:44 AM
I don't have a problem with giving incentives. I'm a huge fan of them, as downtown has been hurt so bad in the past by self inflicted mistakes that the market isn't there to support a lot of things people want to see. I just believe if there's $400 million to incentive, it would be better spent doing that instead of being burnt on moving the jail at this point.
Or running 10 miles of streetcar down Bay Street through Lavilla and into Brooklyn, and down Main into Springfield.
Or earmarking it for the stadium rebuild.
We've spent such an astronomical amount of money in the last decade on things that have resulted in no net gain for downtown - sinking Coastline into the river, demolishing the Courthouse and Annex, buying out Sleiman, halfway tearing down the Hart Bridge ramps, moving MOSH from a great spot to a worse spot - that I just think we need to really ask ourselves over the next decade if each downtown investment is truly, concretely, immediately additive.
100% aligned with planning for a jail move down the line, and now is the time to start thinking through what that might look like, I just don't think know is the time to be putting significant investment behind it when there are so many other more pressing needs.
The 'Jacksonville Armada' stadium legislation is being introduced next week. Don't forget to add that to the list of funny money being cooked up out of thin air.
Noticed in the new plan for Riverfront Plaza no JAX art. I thought that was the reason the original bid was chosen. So exasperating. So typical Jax. Never, never get your hopes up until you see it appear cuz it probably won't.
^From the Times-Union when Perkins+Will was announced as the winner:
QuotePerkins & Will Wins Park Design Competition
Full story: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2021/07/22/perkins-wins-park-design-where-jacksonville-landing-used/8053100002/
The scoring came after three nationally known firms presented their visions in an all-day meeting last month that showed how they would stamp a Jacksonville-inspired design on property that sits in the center of downtown and has been shown countless times on national television broadcasts.
The other finalists in the running were Agency Landscape + Planning, based in Cambridge, Mass., and Olin Partnership of Philadelphia. Perkins&Will has studios in cities across the country.
Boyer said the three teams scored consistently in many of the criteria and it was the public art proposed by Perkins&Will that put it over the top.
Boyer said she likes the reflective chrome that would let people see themselves when looking at it and taking photos, something she said many cities are using in their art installations.
The outdoor art particularly sparked a "tremendous amount of public comment" with varying reactions, but "love it or hate it," the design certainly stoked interest and will prompt people to go see it after it's in place, said Downtown Investment Authority CEO Lori Boyer.
More detail on the scoring here, from Jax Daily Record (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2021/jul/22/jax-sculpture-is-centerpiece-of-winning-park-design-for-former-landing/):
QuoteHis and Boyer's scoring sheets show Perkins & Will averaged 100 out of 115 points while Agency had 97.5 points.
Perkins & Will outscored the other two firms by eight to 10 points on the art piece, which Boyer said put the firm "over the top."
The sculpture, regardless of one's personal opinion about it, was literally
the reason why P&W was selected as the winner over Agency.
Eliminating/downplaying/shelving the art piece pretty much invalidates the entire year-long, half-million dollar design contest, while disrespecting the 13 firms and three finalists who put their blood, sweat, and tears into designing a park to the specs of the RFP.
Moot point.
Perkins & Will's design is fantastic.
Agency was chosen for Shipyards West.
And there is zero expectation that what is first rendered in a design contest without hard constraints will be near the final design. It was a demonstration project, more or less, to show what each firm can/would do, under X criteria.
Art will be funded privately, a deserved secondary priority to getting the actual park built/funded.
Quote from: fsu813 on February 10, 2023, 03:16:53 PM
Moot point.
Perkins & Will's design is fantastic.
Agency was chosen for Shipyards West.
And there is zero expectation that what is first rendered in a design contest without hard constraints will be near the final design. It was a demonstration project, more or less, to show what each firm can/would do, under X criteria.
Art will be funded privately, a deserved secondary priority to getting the actual park built/funded.
Fully agree that the design of the park is fantastic.
In terms of the park space, it was my favorite of the finalists, and I think the latest designs for the park itself might even be better than what was originally presented.
I'm stoked for it to open.
Respectfully disagree on a couple of points though.
First, while there may have been no expectations that the initial round of 15 or so entries into the design contest would be anything more than proof of concept, that expectation did exist with the final three entries. We gave all three firms $150,000 in taxpayer money to create 50% designs of what the final park would look like. There were multiple rounds of Q&A on constraints, including budget, streetscape, private development, etc.
I'm glad Agency is designing Shipyards West, and I really like their design too, but the reason it's not a moot point is because it reflects a bigger problem with how we treat developers and handle RFPs and development agreements that might be hurting our ability to attract more outside development during periods of economic boom.
I'm sure there are more that I'm missing, but looking at how the DIA's RFPs have gone over the last 5 years:
- Convention Center RFP: Multiple firms bid; Jacobs brought 30 people for the pitch; Shad Khan raises a fit, the project is dropped
- Ford on Bay RFP 2: Multiple developers throw in, Spandrell is selected, project is abandoned
- LaVilla Townhome RFP: Johnson puts in what's universally considered the best proposal; DIA chooses Vestcor and encourages them to use Johnson's ideas
- Ford on Bay RFP 3: Multiple bidders put in; RFP prioritizes a development that will be built quickly; Hardwick wins and is giving a multi-year due diligence window
- Landing Private Development pad: RFP called for a priority on hotel and office space, winning bid is residential.
Again, love the design, but public art was a major part of the scoring for this RFP. I believe 20 percent of the overall scoring. Not conceptual, but at least 50 percent realized. P+W spent a large portion of their amazing presentation (best I've ever seen for an RFP response in Jax, by a MILE) speaking to the central art exhibit that would anchor their proposed project. The artist, Jefrè, came to the presentation and spoke very directly and very specifically to the piece that would anchor the park. He talked dimensions, materials, inspiration, and symbology. It wasn't vague or conceptual, it was "this is the thing." And it wasn't a random sculpture tucked away in the corner of a park. At 160 feet tall, designed as a gathering spot and landmark, it was the central visual focus of the park.
The DIA, per their own explicit words, chose P+W at the culmination of a year-long process because of that central art piece. In the absence of that specific piece of art, the decision could very well have tipped toward Agency.
I personally really like the statue, but it's far less about the art piece itself, and more about the city respecting the process, following through, and treating developers with respect. I just put myself in Agency's shoes, to put in so much work and make it so close only to get beat out because of the art installation, only to have the DIA start backtracking on installing the art like two weeks later.
You can get away with stuff like that once or twice, but when every RFP turns wonky, you're gonna burn the development community and scare people away from participating in your bid processes. There's just so many examples of this happening in Jax. Not even solely the DIA. JEA wasting tens of thousands of hours and millions of dollars from other utilities in their "nevermind" privatization attempt. Curry bullying Toney Sleiman out of downtown by pulling permits and threatening eviction. Luring Related to the Southbank under the pretense that MOSH was rebuilding next door.
Love the park, the right partner probably won either way, just don't love our habit of changing rules on the fly.
Apparently construction on Independent Drive is set to begin next month.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/gmj/construction-on-riverfront-plaza-set-to-begin-june/77-7c96d2b7-a2eb-427d-9b1f-15ff174e626f
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 19, 2023, 07:27:47 AM
Apparently construction on Independent Drive is set to begin next month.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/gmj/construction-on-riverfront-plaza-set-to-begin-june/77-7c96d2b7-a2eb-427d-9b1f-15ff174e626f
I believe COJ expects the site will closed 2-3 years for construction.
Quote from: fsu813 on May 19, 2023, 09:52:57 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 19, 2023, 07:27:47 AM
Apparently construction on Independent Drive is set to begin next month.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/gmj/construction-on-riverfront-plaza-set-to-begin-june/77-7c96d2b7-a2eb-427d-9b1f-15ff174e626f
I believe COJ expects the site will closed 2-3 years for construction.
If this is the case, the city needs to commit to getting Friendship Park on the other side of the bridge reopened before Riverfront Plaza closes.
Absolute incompetence and failure by both the city and DIA that Friendship Park has been closed for over THREE YEARS, with no noticeable sign of any day-to-day work going on there these days.
Great planning, but typical, James Weldon Johnson Park, Friendship Park, and Lenny's Lawn will all be closed for construction at the same time. Perhaps the Fountain will open in July (but not for the Independence Day fireworks and festivities), but when will Phase 2 start?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 22, 2023, 07:57:28 AM
Quote from: fsu813 on May 19, 2023, 09:52:57 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 19, 2023, 07:27:47 AM
Apparently construction on Independent Drive is set to begin next month.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/gmj/construction-on-riverfront-plaza-set-to-begin-june/77-7c96d2b7-a2eb-427d-9b1f-15ff174e626f
I believe COJ expects the site will closed 2-3 years for construction.
If this is the case, the city needs to commit to getting Friendship Park on the other side of the bridge reopened before Riverfront Plaza closes.
Absolute incompetence and failure by both the city and DIA that Friendship Park has been closed for over THREE YEARS, with no noticeable sign of any day-to-day work going on there these days.
Phase 1 of FF park is supposed to open this Summer. Phase 2 the next year.
Quote from: fsu813 on May 19, 2023, 09:52:57 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 19, 2023, 07:27:47 AM
Apparently construction on Independent Drive is set to begin next month.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/gmj/construction-on-riverfront-plaza-set-to-begin-june/77-7c96d2b7-a2eb-427d-9b1f-15ff174e626f
I believe COJ expects the site will closed 2-3 years for construction.
so, if like past projects, you mean 5-7 years
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 19, 2023, 07:27:47 AM
Apparently construction on Independent Drive is set to begin next month.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/gmj/construction-on-riverfront-plaza-set-to-begin-june/77-7c96d2b7-a2eb-427d-9b1f-15ff174e626f
Did I say next month? I meant
next next month.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/06/05/construction-expected-to-begin-on-long-awaited-riverfront-plaza-development/
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 05, 2023, 04:37:28 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 19, 2023, 07:27:47 AM
Apparently construction on Independent Drive is set to begin next month.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/entertainment/television/programs/gmj/construction-on-riverfront-plaza-set-to-begin-june/77-7c96d2b7-a2eb-427d-9b1f-15ff174e626f
Did I say next month? I meant next next month.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/06/05/construction-expected-to-begin-on-long-awaited-riverfront-plaza-development/
The logic is sound...... but it's also very, very Jacksonville.
The reasoning makes sense. When the June 4 start-date was announced, I wondered why they weren't waiting until after the 4th of July festivities. With Friendship Park still a construction zone, the absence of Lenny's Lawn would limit prime viewing.
"The first Riverfront Plaza phase does not involve the park's 151-foot-tall "JAX" sculpture -- perhaps the most talked-about part of the project.
City officials say the artist and several experts are refining the design and will present something more affordable."
More affordable = disappointing and boring. Nothing says Jacksonville like half-assing an important project.
At least some of the permitting is on its way now.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jun/12/city-reviewing-permit-for-riverfront-plaza-cafe-shell/
Has anyone seen the actual plans? I'm sure they were value engineered into oblivion.
https://jaxcivilplan.coj.net/
Search "Project Name" and type in "Jacksonville Riverfront Plaza."
Should show up and you can look into it from there. Still looks similar but the VE here is in the materials and plants used. Labor is going to be pretty much the same unless a major scope is removed. But this is a city project to the budget is already 2x inflated.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 12, 2023, 09:16:37 AM
https://jaxcivilplan.coj.net/
Search "Project Name" and type in "Jacksonville Riverfront Plaza."
Should show up and you can look into it from there. Still looks similar but the VE here is in the materials and plants used. Labor is going to be pretty much the same unless a major scope is removed. But this is a city project to the budget is already 2x inflated.
I got 'No records found' with that criteria
It is there. I included a period to be proper but you would likely need to remove that if it was copy & pasted.
I was able to find it without issue.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 12, 2023, 07:34:54 AM
At least some of the permitting is on its way now.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jun/12/city-reviewing-permit-for-riverfront-plaza-cafe-shell/
Looks and sounds good, thus far, to me. Let's get my skyscraper approved and cranes in the air!
And finally, here we go.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/07/10/long-awaited-construction-on-riverfront-plaza-begins-monday/
Instead of "Lerp" maybe we could have an interactive sculpture.
One in Germany
https://www.duisburg.de/microsites/visit_duisburg/discover_the_city/industrial_heritage/tiger-turtle.php
and one in South Korea
https://thesmartlocal.kr/pohang-space-walk/
Yeah! Then we'll have to rename the structure "Clippy from Microsoft Word is back...and this time he is piiiiissed!! :P
This quote from Lori Boyer is so emblematic of what is fundamentally wrong with DIA and the city's approach to Downtown. You put out an RFP for an iconic park space with an iconic centerpiece sculpture. You select Perkins + Will in large part due to the sculpture that was included in their bid. Now it's too much and is not a reasonable budget for Jax. Everything the DIA does at this point is so laughable.
QuoteDIA CEO Lori Boyer told the Meninak Club of Jacksonville on June 26 that the $18 million to $20 million estimate for the statue would "not be a reasonable budget for the city of Jacksonville."
DIA officials say the Jessie Ball duPont Fund is working with the Perkins & Will team artist Jefrë of Orlando to refine and reimagine the initially designed 151-foot-tall "Jax" statue design to be more "emblematic" and "representative of Jacksonville."
Boyer said another sculpture proposed for a riverfront city park Downtown, a 50-foot-tall sculpture in Preston Hollow Community Capital LLC's mixed-use RiversEdge development on the Southbank designed by international artist and architect Marc Fornes, will cost $2 million to $3 million.
"So, I know it's possible to do something more affordable and we envision that this needs to be something that we can raise most of the funding for privately," Boyer said June 26. "So we've got to get that budget under control."
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jul/10/construction-equipment-crews-arrive-at-riverfront-plaza-park-site/
Quote from: Zac T on July 11, 2023, 09:43:20 AM
This quote from Lori Boyer is so emblematic of what is fundamentally wrong with DIA and the city's approach to Downtown. You put out an RFP for an iconic park space with an iconic centerpiece sculpture. You select Perkins + Will in large part due to the sculpture that was included in their bid. Now it's too much and is not a reasonable budget for Jax. Everything the DIA does at this point is so laughable.
to be fair, the original P+W proposal was double the budget the RFP had - because of the sculpture - so this is nothing new
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 11, 2023, 10:32:48 AM
Quote from: Zac T on July 11, 2023, 09:43:20 AM
This quote from Lori Boyer is so emblematic of what is fundamentally wrong with DIA and the city's approach to Downtown. You put out an RFP for an iconic park space with an iconic centerpiece sculpture. You select Perkins + Will in large part due to the sculpture that was included in their bid. Now it's too much and is not a reasonable budget for Jax. Everything the DIA does at this point is so laughable.
to be fair, the original P+W proposal was double the budget the RFP had - because of the sculpture - so this is nothing new
Would counter that another problem with the RFP was that it was unclear about the final budget for the park.
It included a "placeholder" budget, while also suggesting in the RFP and in the clarifying Q&As with respondents that the design shouldn't necessarily be constrained that that budget either, and that iconic public art could be considered outside of that budget.
So, you had respondents working strictly within the framework of the "placeholder" budget, and other respondents, like P+W, being more ambitious and proposing a final design beyond the scope of the placeholder budget.
I don't think either group of respondents was wrong (P+W's scoped budget for the park itself was within DIA placeholder range), they just didn't have clear direction from the DIA.
I'll reiterate every day that, even though I personally like the P+W design the best, Agency was done dirty in the RFP process, and giving them Shipyards West doesn't change that.
Perkins + Will, per Lori Boyer's own words, was chosen as the winner BECAUSE of the "unreasonable" art piece whose cost was very clearly laid out in P+W's RFP response. Agency had the slight edge otherwise. Dismissively pulling the plug on the art piece makes a mockery of the entire RFP process and those executing it, and there's just no getting around that.
(https://snipboard.io/0PpbO2.jpg)
The city undoubtedly botches every RFP.
The Ford on Bay site 3x over...that was fun to watch! Absolutely loved Hyatt dusting off the well-known Right of First Refusal in round #2. Just hilarious.
I don't get it, do other cities of this size have these problems with things as basic as getting their own properties onto the tax rolls? Or building a park?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 11, 2023, 02:54:36 PM
I don't get it, do other cities of this size have these problems with things as basic as getting their own properties onto the tax rolls? Or building a park?
Similar question that I'm not construction savvy enough to know the answer to, but that I'm genuinely curious about.
Is there a specific reason that bulkhead work and other site work can't occur simultaneously?
With a lot of downtown projects on the river front (the District, Times-Union Center park, Riverfront Plaza, etc.) we routinely hear that the first six months of the project will be exclusively bulkhead work in a vacuum.
Really drags out a lot of timelines.
Is there a logistical/environmental reason we have to do the bulkhead work before we can start other aspects of the park?
With bulkheads you first put in the sheet-piling or wooden/concrete piles with a retaining wall attached to it, and then you build the tiebacks. Tiebacks are concrete masses put in the ground upland from the water's edge and then connected to the bulkhead to help hold it in place. Until the tiebacks are installed there's a risk of the site pushing the bulkhead over and eroding into the water. Maybe the vibrations and other sitework would exacerbate this problem and pose a significant risk to the bulkhead work? I'm no expert, but I know a little bit about the process and this is my somewhat educated guess.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 12, 2023, 10:43:04 AM
With bulkheads you first put in the sheet-piling or wooden/concrete piles with a retaining wall attached to it, and then you build the tiebacks. Tiebacks are concrete masses put in the ground upland from the water's edge and then connected to the bulkhead to help hold it in place. Until the tiebacks are installed there's a risk of the site pushing the bulkhead over and eroding into the water. Maybe the vibrations and other sitework would exacerbate this problem and pose a significant risk to the bulkhead work? I'm no expert, but I know a little bit about the process and this is my somewhat educated guess.
Thanks Cap!
Great info and context, much appreciated!
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 11, 2023, 03:22:11 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 11, 2023, 02:54:36 PM
I don't get it, do other cities of this size have these problems with things as basic as getting their own properties onto the tax rolls? Or building a park?
Similar question that I'm not construction savvy enough to know the answer to, but that I'm genuinely curious about.
Is there a specific reason that bulkhead work and other site work can't occur simultaneously?
With a lot of downtown projects on the river front (the District, Times-Union Center park, Riverfront Plaza, etc.) we routinely hear that the first six months of the project will be exclusively bulkhead work in a vacuum.
Really drags out a lot of timelines.
Is there a logistical/environmental reason we have to do the bulkhead work before we can start other aspects of the park?
The bulkhead work will be an extreme disruption to the river side of the site, it might be so much that it really wouldn't make sense to start the rest of the site work otherwise. These aren't like the seawall in someone's backyard. The river along that site is really deep where it makes that turn and constricts there, it's like 70' under the main street bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 20 or 30 feet of exposed wall there.
Not sure anyone noticed, but the DIA has clarified in its press release (https://dia.coj.net/News/Construction-begins-at-Riverfront-Plaza) that $25 million will only cover half of the park, approximately everything west of Laura Street:
QuotePhase I of the two-phase project starts with closing and removing a portion of Independent Drive to clear space for park amenities. In addition, Independent Drive will be rerouted to Hogan Street.
Other first-phase work includes rebuilding the bulkhead and riverwalk along the entire length of the plaza to improve resilience, transforming a portion of Hogan Street into a pedestrian plaza connecting and integrating the Performing Arts Center, and building park attractions such as a multipurpose lawn, a series of curving walkways, native plant gardens, a water play area and the café with roof-mounted playground.
Phase I construction is expected to take two years, with appropriated funding of $25 million expected to cover all of the first-phase costs.
(https://usgovvirginia1-mediap.svc.ms/transform/thumbnail?provider=spo&inputFormat=jpg&cs=fFNQTw&docid=https%3A%2F%2Fcoj365-my.sharepoint.com%3A443%2F_api%2Fv2.0%2Fdrives%2Fb!Rq6wwAJ4MECr7dqAaB0NcxQaBxG86R5EhdihnmKUDSYdiUkI3jBvSrqHHyKKcVGW%2Fitems%2F01YQQJOGZGNJ3J7R6MMFB36JJMN4ZV5GB5%3Fversion%3DPublished&access_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.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.scvwjCGo7ZEiqH0x2dzcm90J38JnmKgJ1sHYfyGrE-o&cTag=%22c%3A%7B9F766A26-CCC7-4361-BF25-2C6F335E983D%7D%2C2%22&encodeFailures=1&width=1671&height=998&srcWidth=6969&srcHeight=4161)
Despite Lori Boyer's statement of fifteen to eighteen months, the press release says two years, which would put the opening date (of just Phase 1!) in mid 2025. Ironically around the same time autonomous shuttles are supposed to start running on Bay Street.
The second phase (the cost of which is currently unclear) will cover the east half, including the connection to the Main Street Bridge (which is now in Mayor Deegan's proposed CIP):
QuoteThe second phase of the park will include such features as a rain garden, water feature, civic stairs, a beer garden and a pedestrian ramp from the Main Street Bridge.
This still does not include the cost of the proposed statue, and of course does not include the cost of the River View Plaza tower, if it is ever built at this point.
I noticed right off the bat that the price would be $50 to $100 million. Even said it during the debates about keeping the Landing. Don't really care what's promised, dreamed or highlighted locally about these projects. These things cost money and typically double whatever costs were mentioned by the previous administration. Glad to see that this budget proposes funds to finally get several of these long discussed infrastructure projects started. It will probably take a decade (as predicted years ago) to get this park built. We should also accept the reality that it will likely create less jobs and bring less people downtown on a regular basis then the Landing did. It is what it is, but I am looking forward to having a space that at least brings public restrooms back and has something for kids to be entertained. It's been more than a decade that we've gone without something as basic as a tot lot or playground in downtown.
The park they keep showing in those flashy renderings is easily approaching $100m all said and done once you include all of the infrastructure work. It looks great, but I have zero faith it would be built and maintained anywhere near they level shown.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 18, 2023, 12:28:15 AM
Not sure anyone noticed, but the DIA has clarified in its press release (https://dia.coj.net/News/Construction-begins-at-Riverfront-Plaza) that $25 million will only cover half of the park, approximately everything west of Laura Street:
Whether it's been in a press release or not, this has been openly discussed, including during the Mayoral campaign, for months.
There will be a push to do the entire park more or less at once, instead of waiting on (something?) to begin phase 2.
May as well build the entire park and sod the tower pad as a lawn for the foreseeable future. Pay for all park amenities and connections up front with public funds. This includes a bike/ped connection to the Main Street Bridge. If it cost $50 million, so be it. Just be transparent with residents on total costs and construction timeline (completion is still at least five years out). When and if private development happens (more likely with a completed park) it will just be an extra amenity for park users.
Same with the missing riverwalk connection through the Shipyards. We don't have to 100% fund everything in between to make the connection. Pay for it upfront with public funds and add the expensive park amenities incrementally. This should have been done 20 years ago.
Listened in to today's Riverfront Subcommittee meeting. The presentations were largely about the ports today, with presentations from JaxPort, Crowley, and the Army Corps of Engineers, but afterwards there were discussions about funding for riverfront parks. Apparently there is something like $3.5 million needed to complete St. Johns River Park by next year, as well as $750,000 for the Music Heritage Park and $2.5 million for the Hogan Street Connector.
I was surprised to hear near-outrage on the part of some people at the meeting in person about the pace at which the city is working. Complaints about seeing other cities complete major park projects in two years, and how budgets have spiraled out of control and timelines have slipped. Some discussions about both the process of developing parks and the capacity to get these projects done. Also questions about how these parks are going to be maintained once they're built, and ensuring they stay resilient in the coming years.
Depressing reading y'alls comments! Truth hurts.
To add salt to the wound, here's a link from Visit Omaha on their "Billion Dollar Makeover", which includes parks ($75M parks in one case for a park the size of the Landing site).
I looked into each of these projects a few months ago to share with a group I am a part of, and I am sad to report (but happy for Omaha) that basically all of these projects already got built or are being built (such as in the case of their new tallest skyscraper...a HQ downtown).
https://www.visitomaha.com/about-omaha/development/
Omaha (and basically most cities) run laps around us. And we are booming...on paper in some areas. We can't seem to translate that into anything, but it's not for lack of trying from private citizens who care and are organizing.
Not to further mention that metro Omaha is only half the size of metro Jacksonville. You would think it would be the reverse based on these projects.
Marcus,
Frustrations re: progress and capacity have been there for quite a while.
Quote from: simms3 on July 18, 2023, 07:44:06 PM
Depressing reading y'alls comments! Truth hurts.
To add salt to the wound, here's a link from Visit Omaha on their "Billion Dollar Makeover", which includes parks ($75M parks in one case for a park the size of the Landing site).
I looked into each of these projects a few months ago to share with a group I am a part of, and I am sad to report (but happy for Omaha) that basically all of these projects already got built or are being built (such as in the case of their new tallest skyscraper...a HQ downtown).
https://www.visitomaha.com/about-omaha/development/
Omaha (and basically most cities) run laps around us. And we are booming...on paper in some areas. We can't seem to translate that into anything, but it's not for lack of trying from private citizens who care and are organizing.
Not to further mention that metro Omaha is only half the size of metro Jacksonville. You would think it would be the reverse based on these projects.
I was just in Omaha a few weeks ago - their downtown parks system will be very impressive when complete. The central park that comes into downtown itself has an amazing playground, an amphitheater, a sculpture garden, and much more!
What is the next milestone and date for the American Lions building? Might not mean a thing but would like to have an idea so I can look for updates at that time.... Thanks,
^DIA plans to have the development agreement in front of City Council for approval by September 2022.
Work on the building will begin alongside the park last week.
From my understanding, they're using the same invisible construction team as Friendship Fountain and the Ambassador Hotel.
Jokes aside, the last mention we heard of it (here (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jul/24/frozen-capital-market-pushes-dia-board-to-ok-6-month-extension-for-the-hardwick/)) is that they're dealing with capital issues. I wouldn't expect a timeline unless something special happens.
^On the bright side, at least we're not delaying construction of 50 percent of our new signature riverfront park to accommodate such a pie-in-the-sky mega tower, with a best-case completion date of 2028, that doesn't yet have a development agreement, City Council approval, or financing, despite being offered a $40 million incentive package by the DIA.
That'd just be silly.
May as well build the park independently of this project. I seriously doubt this tower materializes any time soon. It was a stretch when the market was better and construction costs were lower. There are a lot of basic things we need to take care of first before worrying about more tower cranes.
^ I would be happy if they take the building pad back and incorporate it into the park. The renderings made the tower look like it was an unnatural/crammed-in fit between the park, bridge and Wells Fargo tower. Just trying to do too much in the wrong spot.
Again, City chasing every dream proposed by developers without any standards or discipline to say "great project, wrong spot or design."
I am watching the project on the old Times Union site. The height of the parking garage is ridiculous, to me. Will take all day to drive from top to bottom and it, even surrounded by apartments, makes it clear this project will be imposing upon the ambiance of the riverfront. Again, no discipline on setbacks.
I wonder what the (dis)economies of scale are on essentially doing three separate park projects (Phase 1 - the central portion; Phase 2 - the right portion with civic stairs, art, beer garden; Music Heritage/Times-Union park to the left) versus knocking the whole thing out at once?
Sure feels like we'd save a lot of money doing the whole thing properly in one fell swoop, rather than staggering construction across multiple projects and 5-10 years.
I also kind of fear an OG Skyway situation where we do 40% of the project, it's not the immediate silver bullet that some hope for, and the rest ends up gathering dust in a drawer for years to come.
(https://observermediagroup.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2022/10/18/407416_standard.jpeg)
Tom Lee Park recently re-opened along the Memphis riverfront, a fantastic comp to what is hoped for (and expected) in Jax's nodes of Downtown riverfront parks.
https://vimeo.com/863257402
The list of "less than Jax" cities which have fantastic destination high profile parks is long, even just in the southeast.
Tom Lee Park looks better than it did ago. Transformational, if done in the 1990s and/or early 2000s. However, it doesn't look anymore special than the average urban park today. I mention that last sentence not to take away from what Memphis has done, but to suggest that this is a dime a dozen these days. Whatever, the cost was to upgrade Tom Lee Park (pre-park renovation pictures below), Jax should expect to spend just as much to bring Riverfront Plaza up to "average" category.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Memphis-1/Riverfront-Parks/i-6ksm87x/0/93ddd2ab/L/20210310_170312-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Memphis-1/Riverfront-Parks/i-DtLdM23/0/8c38be3f/L/20210310_170620-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Memphis-1/Riverfront-Parks/i-HhhcKfn/0/e6f7e223/L/20210310_171020-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Memphis-1/Riverfront-Parks/i-qtjCQHT/0/87613798/L/20210310_170657-L.jpg)
American Lion's Tower 44 story scraper seems to be all but dead; however, I laud Mayor Deegan on being honest about the whole Riverfront Plaza debacle (sigh). Hope they come up with something soon on the commercial NE corner of the Park, and get the construction moving on the park soonest.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=mayor+deegan+wants+accelerated+park+construction+at+jacksonville+landing+site&cvid=f8e641153c8c439d837466f4115abe44&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTIzMTcxajBqOagCALACAA&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531
I think a Youtuber ought to do a video on the sheer decline of DT from 1990-2023. In 33 years, downtown went from a viable market for a 40-story office tower, to now not being able to pencil free market (for the trolls) low-rise apartment buildings.
Yes it's happened elsewhere I'm sure. But that fast, and that dramatic? IDK. If anyone thinks these parks will save the day, I have land in the Everglades that is going to be very valuable in a few years. Parks are nice, but parks everywhere are a massive public burden, something we love to boast about online. Other cities are just frankly smarter about not taking on unnecessary burden, while still requiring green space. Such a shocker to the local population here.
BTW, have had several conversation with people about the anticipated maintenance costs of several thousand feet of bulkhead. The city knows it's a potential problem, and isn't planning for it. Just a makes it even better. Next generations problem.
Hey, Kids - wouldn't it be peachy keen and neato to add some stores, restaurants and bars? Then we could have ANOTHER Landing :o
Story from Action News:
Quote
There's nothing to do on the waterfront,' DIA discusses projects for riverfront in Jacksonville
The DIA also discussed, in the long term, adding food trucks, restaurants, bars, and coffee shops along the river. The hope is to model some of the ideas after other places in Florida. For example, Tampa's Armature works area, which has restaurants and shops all in one venue.
https://www.wokv.com/news/local/theres-nothing-do-waterfront-dia-discusses-projects-riverfront-jacksonville/DZJ25ES4Y5BMVDYAGPWVG5WC7Q/
Maybe there could be a horseshoe-shaped building open to the river, and maybe it could have a bright orange roof, and have restaurants (Hooters? Fudruckers?) and shops (Sharper Image? a really cool toy store?). Naw, that's just a pipe dream.
Wow....why did we tear the Landing down again?
Can anyone tell that construction of our new signature park at the Landing began 6 months ago?
It will be interesting to see how much of Lenny's Lawn becomes part of the river today.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 09, 2024, 12:15:45 PM
Can anyone tell that construction of our new signature park at the Landing began 6 months ago?
I don't personally call it a signature park, but yes. Currently it's the road work to realign the roadways around Independent Drive, which has been making progress for several months. Once that's finished I believe in April, work can movevforward on the bulkhead and the west end of the park. The whole project will take years but phases will be open when they're completed so we're not just staring at a construction fence the entire time. One thing we're working on is a communications plan so folks can tell exactly what's going on at a given time.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 09, 2024, 01:21:20 PMOne thing we're working on is a communications plan so folks can tell exactly what's going on at a given time.
Single best thing you can do.
Love it.
Opens communication and fosters accountability for hitting deadlines.
EDIT - Upon further inspection, it appears they have closed off the North Bank riverwalk along Lenny's Lawn with the fence. I am assuming this is related, in part, to the $11,424,000 grant from the Florida Department of Environmental Protection regarding improving the bulkhead that was discussed at the City Council meeting on 1/23/24 (2024-0030). Hopefully this means construction is starting very soon! The City should make an announcement.
Quote from: Joey Mackey on January 24, 2024, 02:33:26 PM
My office over looks Lenny's Lawn and there is a crew out there right now installing a fence across the park, about fifty-ish feet from the Riverwalk. I thought the current phase, which is supposed to take at least two years, only encompasses the corner near Hogan Street. I really hope the City is not closing down the majority of the park "for construction" that won't impact or even begin for at least another two years. Why is the City doing this?
To make it look like something is being done. NOTHING is being done IMO!!!
It has warmed my heart to see active work at Friendship Fountain nearly every day.
More progress in four weeks than we saw in four years prior.
Hopefully showing good things to come under the new administration.
There will be an announcement early next week on what's happening. I can say that the current road work is on schedule, and the fencing is going up in advance of the bulkhead work that will continue this phase of construction.
Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/01/26/next-phase-of-riverfront-plaza-begins-construction-expected-to-finish-in-2025/
Alright! We got a deadline coming up. "The Hogan Street alignment project is nearing completion and Water Street is scheduled to reopen to vehicular traffic in late March 2023." If the City can hit their stated deadline by the end of March, I will be so ecstatic. It would be actual proof that things are turning around in this new administration.
Quote from: Joey Mackey on January 26, 2024, 01:41:50 PM
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/01/26/next-phase-of-riverfront-plaza-begins-construction-expected-to-finish-in-2025/
Alright! We got a deadline coming up. "The Hogan Street alignment project is nearing completion and Water Street is scheduled to reopen to vehicular traffic in late March 2023." If the City can hit their stated deadline by the end of March, I will be so ecstatic. It would be actual proof that things are turning around in this new administration.
I think they meant "late March 2024" I believe. I'm holding my breath on this; nothing ever gets done on time in Jacksonville if done EVER. Lastly, I know it will NEVER happen, but where the HELL is my skyscraper? It's done, finished, never will happen. But looks like Mayor Deegan is the type of Mayor that actually plans and "thinks things carefully through." We might be in for a surprise.
I saw this morning that asphalt is being laid for the new traffic route. I anticipate the City will hit its stated deadline of opening the new road by end of March (or early April at the latest). I cannot stress how happy I am, and other young adult downtown area residents are, that the City has been consistently hitting its deadlines with its two premier river front parks (Friendship Fountain and Riverfront Plaza).
I think thelakelander said it a while ago, but people really just want to see progress. The sounds and sights of construction cranes, dump trucks, and scaffolding, (JU Law School), is worth so much more than any fancy rendering or projection about the billions being "invested" in downtown Jacksonville. Good work for anyone involved so far on Riverfront Plaza and Friendship Fountain, and please keep up the momentum. I cannot wait for construction on actual facilities at Riverfront Plaza to begin.
The Times-Union has a Guest Editorial with architect Ted Pappas weighing in on Riverfront Plaza.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2024/03/31/laura-street-old-landing-site-can-be-new-centerpiece-of-jacksonville/73099879007/
Quote
Private residential properties occupy 90% of the river frontage in Jacksonville. The remainder is occupied by industrial, military, city offices and a small fraction of our Downtown Northbank riverfront properties.
...
Can you imagine a dedicated public park, perhaps like Friendship Fountain that glows nightly and can be seen from two bridges and the Southbank? It would truly be a vibrant skyline.
Historically, the development of Jacksonville's government center, the cultural center and the commercial center have all clustered along the Laura Street axis. Bordering both sides of the street are some of Jacksonville's most important buildings,
...
The 6-acre riverfront park could become Celebration Park (rather than Riverfront Plaza, with a high-rise), dedicated for public use, just as Memorial Park in Riverside has accommodated pedestrians enjoying the St. Johns River for over 100 years.
Is it important that every square foot of rare riverfront property produces ad valorem taxes when the value and positive impact of parks throughout the country are well-documented? With over 840 square miles of land area, can't this city dedicate 6 acres of land to celebrate our world-famous river?
Celebration Park is an interesting name (although we already have a Greenscape Celebration Park (https://www.jacksonville.gov/departments/parks-and-recreation/recreation-and-community-programming/parks/greenscape-celebration-park)). I don't hate it.
I've long expressed concern over dedicating this much real estate to parks that will need to be maintained and programmed. I know jaxlongtimer has long shared a view similar to Mr. Pappas. What I will say to this site is that we are already essentially in about this position anyway. The Landing is long gone, and River View Plaza has been reduced to atoms.
It might make enough sense here to scale back some of the ambition to put a tower on this site and focus on building a good signature park that connects well enough to JWJ via Laura Street. That will still need to involve some way of creating a connection to the Main Street Bridge and Friendship Park but that seems now to be much more achievable than finding someone to build a tower. If we have to start over on that half (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,37897.msg528317.html#msg528317) anyway then now is probably the time for that decision.
After all.... Jacksonville's "Landing" should be Public..... Jacksonville's Gracious Southern Front Porch (*).
The waterfront parcel is too valuable for anything else....(*)
Et Al (*)
* Trade Mark/ Copy Right/ General Useless Pontification
Related to Downtown Jacksonille Waterway Viewscape and General Public Engagement "Potential".
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 31, 2024, 07:04:03 PM
Celebration Park is an interesting name (although we already have a Greenscape Celebration Park (https://www.jacksonville.gov/departments/parks-and-recreation/recreation-and-community-programming/parks/greenscape-celebration-park)). I don't hate it.
I've long expressed concern over dedicating this much real estate to parks that will need to be maintained and programmed. I know jaxlongtimer has long shared a view similar to Mr. Pappas. What I will say to this site is that we are already essentially in about this position anyway. The Landing is long gone, and River View Plaza has been reduced to atoms.
It might make enough sense here to scale back some of the ambition to put a tower on this site and focus on building a good signature park that connects well enough to JWJ via Laura Street. That will still need to involve some way of creating a connection to the Main Street Bridge and Friendship Park but that seems now to be much more achievable than finding someone to build a tower. If we have to start over on that half (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,37897.msg528317.html#msg528317) anyway then now is probably the time for that decision.
Correct, Marcus, I fully agree with Ted Pappas and beyond ;D. A hundred years from now future generations will be most appreciative of the current generation putting parks on our riverfront.
Jax has always lived for the short run... it's time to think out much further. If this was done 50 to 70 years ago much of what we discuss today on the Jaxon would be moot. We took our riverfront and put City Hall, the Courthouse, parking lots, the Performing Arts Center, CSX, Berkman Plaza and now a Four Seasons and Mosh on it. In 50 more years, much of this is going to lose its luster while a population likely to be twice, triple or more of our current population will bemoan the lack of proportional access to the riverfront. Look at any other major city with water and see how jealous they would be of what we could do now.
Property taxes on buildings one block or so back from the river will be a lot higher than riverfront with greenspaces adjacent. Just look at Manhattan and Central Park, which isn't even on the water.
By the way, the apartments rising on the river at the former Times Union site are already a blight on our riverfront if you ask me. Way too close to the rivers edge for their height. I expressed concerns about this before and this project validates them in my book. Just ugly.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 31, 2024, 10:18:42 PM
Look at any other major city with water and see how jealous they would be of what we could do now.
Meanwhile in Columbus...
(https://www.sciotomile.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/GrandIlluminationBlog_FeatureImage.jpg)
Or NYC (Battery Park)...
(https://landezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/06-Credit-Battery-Conservancy.jpg)
No brainer quality of life and tourism investment imo.
DIA set to discuss whether to RFP the Riverfront Plaza development pad now or wait until a later date in hopes of a more favorable economic environment
QuoteFaced with a high-rise project that is no longer financially feasible but is an integrated part of the city's planned amenities at Riverfront Plaza, the Downtown Investment Authority has a decision to make on how to move forward with developing the Northbank park.
...
The question before the committee was when to put the property back up for grabs, with Boyer saying that doing it now or holding off until later would both have advantages and disadvantages.
Seeking new proposals soon could help the city stay on schedule on the two-phase construction plan for public improvements for the plaza, she said. The second phase of construction is designed to merge with the start of construction on the private development in early 2026.
But moving forward quickly could result in the parcel drawing fewer bids than it might if the city waits until interest rates come down and cheaper financing becomes available to developers. Waiting, however, would force the city to build supports for the walkway and a wall for the beer garden to stay true to its plans for the park, which has been fully designed and is under construction.
Boyer said American Lions is still interested in developing the site. She said two other developers also had communicated with the DIA about it.
"I would not say there is just widespread national interest, but we haven't marketed it," she said.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/apr/11/dia-considers-path-to-take-on-former-american-lions-site-at-riverfront-plaza/
Roadwork essentially done and open for business.
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?id=100064395770983&story_fbid=824617906361394 (https://www.facebook.com/story.php?id=100064395770983&story_fbid=824617906361394)
Is it just me, but are things moving much faster under Deegan?
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 25, 2024, 05:51:39 PM
Is it just me, but are things moving much faster under Deegan?
Check out progress on the RAM skate park and the creek work at the old T-U site.
Deegan and her team are getting things done.
Crazy what happens when you don't use city resources and the CIP to reward or punish your political allies/foes.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2024/04/28/mayor-deegan-team-should-respect-public-concerns-on-riverfront-plaza/73417173007/
It's baffling to me how many people are opposed to a riverfront restaurant as part of the park.
Not sure if these people realize just how dead the area is after 5 pm.
Park does us no good if there's no reason to go and stay there.
Same with JWJ Park. Going to turn these spaces into passive 9-5 wastelands if we don't add permanent amenities and uses.
I'm confused by the insistence that a park must by design be largely empty green space. Obviously it's possible for one to do too much (JWJ's proposed redesign comes to mind) but with how much open "flex space" has already been created and even expanded by the playground and Hogan/Water reconfiguration I'm confused what exactly Mr. Pariani expects people to do. He mentions neglect but what would happen to empty space other than neglect?
Also 6 years? The Landing's demolition wrapped up 4 years ago. Seems like a basic timeline thing.
Now on the other hand, I wonder if it would make any sense to put the restaurant where the tower had been proposed. Since that was planned to be raised anyway in order to support both the tower and access to the Main Street Bridge, one could kill two birds with one stone by moving the restaurant there. That does still mean needing to program the expanded lower space though.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 28, 2024, 09:00:01 PM
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2024/04/28/mayor-deegan-team-should-respect-public-concerns-on-riverfront-plaza/73417173007/
It's baffling to me how many people are opposed to a riverfront restaurant as part of the park.
Not sure if these people realize just how dead the area is after 5 pm.
Park does us no good if there's no reason to go and stay there.
Same with JWJ Park. Going to turn these spaces into passive 9-5 wastelands if we don't add permanent amenities and uses.
We've had a vacant field out there for several years now. Most of these people didn't visit it then and won't visit it on a regular basis when its completed.
QuoteThe small piece of cherished riverfront that is downtown's outdoor living room has been free of its failed development for over six years.
This quote from the editorial says a lot. No matter what anyone thought about the Landing, the loss of +30 businesses and restaurants, hundreds of downtown employees, thousands of patrons and regular programmed events has hurt downtown over the past six years. That area has been a ghost town outside of a few random, programmed events. A lot more than park space and a single restaurant in it, will be needed to breathe life back into the Northbank core riverfront.
QuoteFor clarity and simplicity, build a riverfront park in one fell swoop without a riverside restaurant or a private residential tower. Remember, less is more.
These can be built as future infill development pads, if there's a concern with feasibility. That doesn't seem to be the case with the restaurant at this point, although back-of-house operations and their impact on getting goods and trash to Hogan Street/Water Street, may be a long term maintenance and upkeep issue.
^ To me, it is about balance. One alternate is to have restaurants surround the outer boundaries of a park or green space and open up toward same.
We had a nice riverfront restaurant on the Southbank and tore it down. We had several riverfront restaurants on the Northbank and tore those down. With this track record and resiliency concerns, some decent planning and inputs should be performed before plowing ahead just so we can say we did something.
In Battery Park in Manhattan, they have a restaurant facing the water and it is surrounded on all sides by a park and greenspace. The difference is they have far more greenspace than Jax has to work with. Thus, proportionality should be a factor in any developments. A restaurant should not dominate a park or interfere with non-patrons using the park but, rather, compliment the park's usage.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on April 28, 2024, 09:48:48 PM
I'm confused by the insistence that a park must by design be largely empty green space.
Everyone has an opinion, including Rick.
Empty space hasn't been the Riverfront Parks Now position, however. Commercial developments are fine, but as others mentioned, balance is important. As is the timeline to have a functional, accessible space.... which is currently looking like 2028 if DIA moves forward with a highrise in the NE quadrant of the space, again.
The Landing site is the most opinionated site in the city's history over the last two decades. This is one where there will never be community consensus. I'm hoping COJ will get something functional done and move on. We've got bigger issues to fry in downtown.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 29, 2024, 03:11:58 PM
^ To me, it is about balance. One alternate is to have restaurants surround the outer boundaries of a park or green space and open up toward same.
We had a nice riverfront restaurant on the Southbank and tore it down. We had several riverfront restaurants on the Northbank and tore those down. With this track record and resiliency concerns, some decent planning and inputs should be performed before plowing ahead just so we can say we did something.
In Battery Park in Manhattan, they have a restaurant facing the water and it is surrounded on all sides by a park and greenspace. The difference is they have far more greenspace than Jax has to work with. Thus, proportionality should be a factor in any developments. A restaurant should not dominate a park or interfere with non-patrons using the park but, rather, compliment the park's usage.
This picture below from a previous post here of Battery Park demonstrates my comment above about proportionality and balance. The restaurant is at the far lower right corner of the park's greenspace at the very end of the riverwalk (inset-ed in the angled section). There is a large outdoor eating plaza between the building and the riverwalk further setting the restaurant building back to make it less obtrusive. Overall, the restaurant is a tiny fraction of the park's size. FYI, the mostly round building in the picture is the historic battery structure from which the park takes its name. The upright light colored panels at the park's midsection are, as I recall, a war memorial.
Note that all the tallest buildings are set well back of the waterfront. The ultimate plan is to greenbelt the entire Manhattan island at its waterfront.
(https://landezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/06-Credit-Battery-Conservancy.jpg)
Even with the Battery, I get the impression that Pier A and Castle Clinton would both be opposed if proposed at the Landing site. People in this town have been fanatic about it for decades. We literally just blew up probably the most architecturally unique building we had on the riverfront. Now there's been considerable debate on the location of a single restaurant. Battery Park has more than one place to eat, along with subway lines and a highway running under it. Its also a historic site, which makes it hard to compare or serve as an example for the former Landing site. Nevertheless, its very good that for NYC designated those Battery Park sites as historic landmarks.
Riverfront Plaza Phase I is really starting to come together with the trees that came in recently.
Question for Bill, or anyone who might know.
What's the plan for the cafe space? Will the city run the cafe, or look for a private operator to lease it to?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2025, 11:27:25 PM
Riverfront Plaza Phase I is really starting to come together with the trees that came in recently.
Question for Bill, or anyone who might know.
What's the plan for the cafe space? Will the city run the cafe, or look for a private operator to lease it to?
It'll be a private vendor. Should be picked relatively soon with whatever further interior buildout needs to be done after that.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 13, 2025, 10:50:11 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2025, 11:27:25 PM
Riverfront Plaza Phase I is really starting to come together with the trees that came in recently.
Question for Bill, or anyone who might know.
What's the plan for the cafe space? Will the city run the cafe, or look for a private operator to lease it to?
It'll be a private vendor. Should be picked relatively soon with whatever further interior buildout needs to be done after that.
Sweet! Thanks dude!
Quote from: Tacachale on November 13, 2025, 10:50:11 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2025, 11:27:25 PM
Riverfront Plaza Phase I is really starting to come together with the trees that came in recently.
Question for Bill, or anyone who might know.
What's the plan for the cafe space? Will the city run the cafe, or look for a private operator to lease it to?
It'll be a private vendor. Should be picked relatively soon with whatever further interior buildout needs to be done after that.
Fudruckers? :D ;)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 13, 2025, 05:27:51 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 13, 2025, 10:50:11 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2025, 11:27:25 PM
Riverfront Plaza Phase I is really starting to come together with the trees that came in recently.
Question for Bill, or anyone who might know.
What's the plan for the cafe space? Will the city run the cafe, or look for a private operator to lease it to?
It'll be a private vendor. Should be picked relatively soon with whatever further interior buildout needs to be done after that.
Fudruckers? :D ;)
Mooneyhan Studios and Cafe!
https://jaxtoday.org/2025/11/14/sidewalk-restaurant-downtown/
The article is a little unclear, but I am assuming the money diverted away from the Riverfront Plaza Restaurant is separate from the Riverfront Plaza Cafe already constructed, is that right to anyone that knows?
Quote from: Joey Mackey on November 17, 2025, 03:03:43 PM
https://jaxtoday.org/2025/11/14/sidewalk-restaurant-downtown/
The article is a little unclear, but I am assuming the money diverted away from the Riverfront Plaza Restaurant is separate from the Riverfront Plaza Cafe already constructed, is that right to anyone that knows?
Correct!
The
Riverfront Plaza Cafe already has its shell largely built out, and per Bill's note above, will be leased out to a private operator for build-out and operations. Let's hope the city commits to keeping this space occupied for the long-term across administrations, lest it turn into Shelby's Coffee Shop at the Main Street Library (e.g. retail-bay turned office space for a city/city-adjacent agency).
The
Riverfront Plaza Restaurant is the larger, full-restaurant concept tentatively planned for the waterfront, in that oval-shaped portion of the park's green space. This one seems to be in limbo. The squeaky-wheel "never develop any parkland with uses that will attract people to the space" crowd raised some issues. Some Council members were worried about resilience and having a restaurant space under city ownership. And, probably most importantly, Gateway Jax took control of the private development pad at Phase 2.
Riverfront Plaza absolutely needs restaurant space. If Gateway Jax moves forward with their plan for 75,000 of mixed use, a stronger case could probably be made for abstaining from building out the city-owned restaurant space. I'd still love to see both.
Guess we'll have to wait and see.
We still have lots of underutilized space facing the Landing site and river at the Times-Union Center, Enterprise Center and One Independent Square. So there's still things that can be done to further activate the park and immediate area.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 17, 2025, 05:42:47 PM
We still have lots of underutilized space facing the Landing site and river at the Times-Union Center, Enterprise Center and One Independent Square. So there's still things that can be done to further activate the park and immediate area.
DIA has plans for this at various stages of development. Some will hopefully see movement relatively soon and I think they're likelier to come together in the mid-term than the restaurant in the park. Of course that may well come back in the future, but right now the momentum is focused on wrapping this phase and getting on to the next.
I'm very proud we've been able to move on this so quickly — it's easy to forget that not one square foot of construction happened until July 2023. It's a hell of an accomplishment, but to me it just highlights how disastrous the demolition of the Landing was.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 17, 2025, 03:32:20 PM
Quote from: Joey Mackey on November 17, 2025, 03:03:43 PM
https://jaxtoday.org/2025/11/14/sidewalk-restaurant-downtown/
The article is a little unclear, but I am assuming the money diverted away from the Riverfront Plaza Restaurant is separate from the Riverfront Plaza Cafe already constructed, is that right to anyone that knows?
Correct!
A dozen nice Adirondack chairs.
That's the best/fast/easiest/cheapest way to activate the specific part of the park that was originally designated as a riverfront restaurant development pad, and is now open greenspace on a bit of a hill.
Instantly alluring, instantly popular. Especially in our current mild season.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 17, 2025, 10:56:22 PM
I'm very proud we've been able to move on this so quickly — it's easy to forget that not one square foot of construction happened until July 2023. It's a hell of an accomplishment, but to me it just highlights how disastrous the demolition of the Landing was.
Not that we're keeping track, but that's roughly half as long as the former administration let Friendship Park sit rotting and blocked off.
And completely agree. Will take us 20 years to piecemeal back what we lost with the demolition of the Landing, but that shouldn't take away from the accomplishment with Riverfront Plaza. You can feel a lot of excitement building for the soft opening next weekend on the socials. Stoked to check it out!
Has an opening date for the park been set yet? It looks close.
Quote from: acme54321 on November 19, 2025, 05:23:23 PM
Has an opening date for the park been set yet? It looks close.
Yes! Soft opening is November 29 for the tree lighting. Completion of the remaining Phase I elements will continue but hopefully it'll all be up and running by year's end, and on to Phase II.
https://www.jacksonville.gov/welcome/news/city-to-host-holiday-river-fest-on-november-29,-20
Curious if you know what the plan for lighting is, Bill. I saw some evening drone shots of the park that looked awesome and made it appear as though the park would be brightly lit at night. Do we expect Riverfont Plaza to be a place that people could safely hang in after a late show at the TU Center or after Volstead closes? Or a lights-off at 10 pm type of situation?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2025, 07:24:16 PM
Curious if you know what the plan for lighting is, Bill. I saw some evening drone shots of the park that looked awesome and made it appear as though the park would be brightly lit at night. Do we expect Riverfont Plaza to be a place that people could safely hang in after a late show at the TU Center or after Volstead closes? Or a lights-off at 10 pm type of situation?
Currently the plan is to have it open and lit at night but not sure how late. It may not be decided yet. I'll check into it.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 14, 2025, 10:44:16 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 13, 2025, 05:27:51 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 13, 2025, 10:50:11 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2025, 11:27:25 PM
Riverfront Plaza Phase I is really starting to come together with the trees that came in recently.
Question for Bill, or anyone who might know.
What's the plan for the cafe space? Will the city run the cafe, or look for a private operator to lease it to?
It'll be a private vendor. Should be picked relatively soon with whatever further interior buildout needs to be done after that.
Fudruckers? :D ;)
Mooneyhan Studios and Cafe!
It's easy to see who has been around here for a long time.... 8) :D
Went down to check it out. I'd say with the park - like much of downtown - you're STARTING to see it come together. The operative work there being START:
-Good call advertising this as a soft opening. Playground and restrooms aren't open yet (and the cafe is a bit off). I think little things like the "phase 2" construction phasing was good to have up, so people can clearly see there's more to it.
-We've got to get the rest of the riverwalk there finished. It makes the whole vision really limiting right now with that also under construction.
-All of that to say, it seems pretty well done.
Other thoughts
-Clearly the One Independent Drive owners, absent an anchor tenant, are going to wait to do anything. Aside from the River Club and the Mon-Fri restaurant, it's a gigantic dead block. Restaurant Space on Laura would be HUGE. Activating the ground of the BofA building will make One Independent look even worse.
-Odd that the Hogan St. VyStar garage was closed for the event. While the Forsyth one was open, I saw multiple people trying to park there. Seems like that could be a discussion with VyStar given they're generally a great community partner.
Quote from: Steve on November 29, 2025, 04:49:43 PM
Went down to check it out. I'd say with the park - like much of downtown - you're STARTING to see it come together. The operative work there being START:
-Good call advertising this as a soft opening. Playground and restrooms aren't open yet (and the cafe is a bit off). I think little things like the "phase 2" construction phasing was good to have up, so people can clearly see there's more to it.
-We've got to get the rest of the riverwalk there finished. It makes the whole vision really limiting right now with that also under construction.
-All of that to say, it seems pretty well done.
Other thoughts
-Clearly the One Independent Drive owners, absent an anchor tenant, are going to wait to do anything. Aside from the River Club and the Mon-Fri restaurant, it's a gigantic dead block. Restaurant Space on Laura would be HUGE.
Me and my 11-year old daughter went down to Friendship Fountain/St. John's Park the night before Thanksgiving, and I had a very similar experience. 64 degrees out, fountain programmed with a light show to Ocean Avenue by Yellowcard, tons of families on the playground at like 9:00 PM. Was a really cool scene, and you could really feel the vision starting to come together. I think the one thing all of these spaces badly need is a signature restaurant space either in park, or directly adjacent to the park. Its add to the vibrancy of the space, gives you somewhere to go, feeds people into the park, and most importantly, makes these spaces feel less like unpoliced, passive no man's lands (especially after dark) and more like active, all-inclusive, destination spaces. Really hoping to see the restaurant space at Friendship Park built out first, private development or restaurant space follow quickly at Riverfront Plaza, and a signature dining option at Shipyards West in the CRA space. Metro Park should be fine with the Four Seasons' restaurants/retail anchoring it, and riverfront restaurant space is inevitable at RiversEdge. Will take time, and continued investment, but I feel like we've finally kind of got the start of the thing that could make Jacksonville's downtown riverfront unique, vibrant, and marketable. If you give each of these major parks (Riverfront Plaza, Shipyards West, Friendship Park, RiversEdge, Metro Park) their own unique dining spot and unique showcase art installation (the Pearl, the Fountain, etc.), all tied together with the riverwalk and water taxi, that's something very unique to Jacksonville.
Took a walk through it yesterday. Really nice. Not sure about the lighting. Looks like surveillance spots. Would have to see them at night. Will try and get some pictures on Wednesday
My kids were the generation that enjoyed Kids Kampus, which was taken away from them. Used to go there, then enjoy a meal at the Landing. Waited and waited for a downtown replacement. Now they are in their 20s. Glad the next generation can enjoy these new park spaces. Looking forward to seeing more interactive amenities like food & beverages being added as time goes on.
I have to agree with Ken. I had been thinking something really similar. I was at RiversEdge park with my kids the other day, and I was floored by the boardwalk. It is gorgeous and feels like you leave downtown altogether when you go on it.
Additionally, I saw the River Taxi out there and I imagined 10 of those running at the same time because tourists & residents were using them to go between parks. I imagined something like a food and wine festival with a different offering at each of 5 different stops (Riverfront Plaza, St Johns River Park, Rivers Edge, Met Park, Shipyards West. I do believe that has the potential to be something that doesn't quite exist anywhere else. It also allows us to truly live up to the "River City" moniker.
Also, I am imagining year round having a pop up bar at each of these parks with those special cups. We can support local breweries, and generate revenue to maintain the parks at a world class level.
It feels like we're really close to something amazing. We're not quite there yet but I'm starting to see it!
To me what it shows is none of this is rocket science. There was no innate failing of Jacksonville that kept us back, and it certainly wasn't a lack of support from the public or business community. The issue has always been a lack of leadership, vision and followthrough. When you don't have that, you get craters in place of buildings and a bunch of social media parrots telling you it's progress. But when you do, we're pulling off some incredibly cool things.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 02, 2025, 10:22:18 PM
To me what it shows is none of this is rocket science. There was no innate failing of Jacksonville that kept us back, and it certainly wasn't a lack of support from the public or business community. The issue has always been a lack of leadership, vision and followthrough. When you don't have that, you get craters in place of buildings and a bunch of social media parrots telling you it's progress. But when you do, we're pulling off some incredibly cool things.
The city of Jacksonville has truly amazing "bones" that have just been completely neglected and ignored for a long time. Hopefully we can count on a 2nd term for our very popular mayor. After that, we'll see.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 02, 2025, 10:22:18 PM
To me what it shows is none of this is rocket science. There was no innate failing of Jacksonville that kept us back, and it certainly wasn't a lack of support from the public or business community. The issue has always been a lack of leadership, vision and followthrough. When you don't have that, you get craters in place of buildings and a bunch of social media parrots telling you it's progress. But when you do, we're pulling off some incredibly cool things.
She got dragged a lot during her time leading the DIA, including by me, so I think it's worth giving credit where it's due. We owe Lori Boyer a lot of credit for what we're seeing happening right now on the riverfront. The "node" concept that we're starting to see take shape at RiversEdge, Friendship Park, Riverfront Plaza, and soon to be Shipyards West was her idea. Four Seasons doesn't come out of the ground without the solid development agreement they orchestrated and a very difficult land swap. Still think we missed out on the biggest opportunity we might ever see during the post-pandemic economic and immigration boom, but it's clearly night and day in terms of what the DIA has been able to accomplish alongside great city leadership vs. the previous administration.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 03, 2025, 10:30:18 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 02, 2025, 10:22:18 PM
To me what it shows is none of this is rocket science. There was no innate failing of Jacksonville that kept us back, and it certainly wasn't a lack of support from the public or business community. The issue has always been a lack of leadership, vision and followthrough. When you don't have that, you get craters in place of buildings and a bunch of social media parrots telling you it's progress. But when you do, we're pulling off some incredibly cool things.
She got dragged a lot during her time leading the DIA, including by me, so I think it's worth giving credit where it's due. We owe Lori Boyer a lot of credit for what we're seeing happening right now on the riverfront. The "node" concept that we're starting to see take shape at RiversEdge, Friendship Park, Riverfront Plaza, and soon to be Shipyards West was her idea.
That's not correct. She knew a good idea when she saw it.
Scenic Jacksonville, a legacy quality of life advocacy organization, spearheaded the creation Riverfront Parks Now, an advocacy coalition of 14 different non-profits, focused on ensuring high quality public greenspace be a key part of our Downtown riverfront's near future. There was a unique opportunity and triggering events: https://www.riverfrontparksnow.org/about-us/
Met with two Mayoral administrations, DIA, Jags, Jax Chamber, Jax Civic Council, duPont, etc to share the opportunity and grow support. And it worked. Importantly, duPont became a key early torch bearer (and still is) to give it credibility and momentum. When it became clear there was buy in, the Riverfront Parks Conservancy was spun off from Riverfront Parks Now: https://riverparkjax.org/
The Conservancy's mission was to prepare to care for these future high profile parks. Surprisingly, or not, an enhanced level of maintenance for these spaces (vs a random Jax park) wasn't part of the city's original budgeting plan. The Conservancy had a MOU with COJ to move forward in this manner and raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, but wasn't fully embraced by city leadership. City leadership came around to embracing the need for a conservancy, and the organization willingly handed over the keys, recently rebranded and revamped into the Jax Riverfront Alliance, shepparded by duPont, with a mostly new board. It received millions in the most recent COJ budget and has an active job opening now for CEO: https://www.conservationjobboard.com/job-listing-chief-executive-officer-jacksonville-florida/4364752195
Scenic Jacksonville is still working, not necessarily focused on riverfront issues. Riverfront Parks Now has succeeded enormously, seeing each of its main objectives completed - lots of public green space on the river (check), high level design (check), well funded (check). It's still operating low key, now pushing for a timely plan to finish the northbank riverwalk (there is no real time line). And the Jax Riverfront Alliance is set to formally announce itself any time now, though it's existence is already in the ether of public knowledge. It will be vitally important for that entity to succeed and have massive buy in for these show piece public spaces to thrive.
Savy, engaged members of public and non-profit leadership working together are the reason, ultimately, these public spaces are coming alive, and aren't The Berkman 2 or whatever else semi-good highrise development may or may not have gotten out of ground by now. The Deagan administration deserves a lot of credit for prioritizing these projects and staying focused on completion and quality. Looking forward to more of these ribbon cuttings.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 03, 2025, 10:30:18 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 02, 2025, 10:22:18 PM
To me what it shows is none of this is rocket science. There was no innate failing of Jacksonville that kept us back, and it certainly wasn't a lack of support from the public or business community. The issue has always been a lack of leadership, vision and followthrough. When you don't have that, you get craters in place of buildings and a bunch of social media parrots telling you it's progress. But when you do, we're pulling off some incredibly cool things.
She got dragged a lot during her time leading the DIA, including by me, so I think it's worth giving credit where it's due. We owe Lori Boyer a lot of credit for what we're seeing happening right now on the riverfront. The "node" concept that we're starting to see take shape at RiversEdge, Friendship Park, Riverfront Plaza, and soon to be Shipyards West was her idea. Four Seasons doesn't come out of the ground without the solid development agreement they orchestrated and a very difficult land swap. Still think we missed out on the biggest opportunity we might ever see during the post-pandemic economic and immigration boom, but it's clearly night and day in terms of what the DIA has been able to accomplish alongside great city leadership vs. the previous administration.
For real. Something I realized, having gone from writing about this stuff on the outside to being in a position to see where all the levers and brakes are, is that the criticisms have been valid but sometimes directed at the wrong place. DIA could make deals, offer certain incentives and make plans, but execution relied on a lot of other factors they didn't have control over. And those other factors were typically where things failed.
The riverfront parks is a perfect example. DIA would have moved on all that years ago, and has consistently worked through the planning and design as much as funding has allowed, but the actual execution is the purview of the mayoral administration. And frankly they just dropped the ball left and right. Same deal with things like two-way street conversions, the Park Street road diet, etc. Combine that with the admin forcing through bad projects like the LaVilla gas station and the Lot J deal, and it was kind of a perfect storm.
What we're seeing now is what the DIA and city has always been capable of. Lori deserves a LOT of credit for us getting this far, and ensuring we're not just starting from scratch every time there's a new mayor and City Council class.
^ Just providing more justification of how bad the Curry administration was. Their agenda was about anything other than what was best for the City. I will leave it to your imagination who they really were serving.
Quote from: fsu813 on December 03, 2025, 06:15:02 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 03, 2025, 10:30:18 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 02, 2025, 10:22:18 PM
To me what it shows is none of this is rocket science. There was no innate failing of Jacksonville that kept us back, and it certainly wasn't a lack of support from the public or business community. The issue has always been a lack of leadership, vision and followthrough. When you don't have that, you get craters in place of buildings and a bunch of social media parrots telling you it's progress. But when you do, we're pulling off some incredibly cool things.
She got dragged a lot during her time leading the DIA, including by me, so I think it's worth giving credit where it's due. We owe Lori Boyer a lot of credit for what we're seeing happening right now on the riverfront. The "node" concept that we're starting to see take shape at RiversEdge, Friendship Park, Riverfront Plaza, and soon to be Shipyards West was her idea.
That's not correct. She knew a good idea when she saw it.
Scenic Jacksonville, a legacy quality of life advocacy organization, spearheaded the creation Riverfront Parks Now, an advocacy coalition of 14 different non-profits, focused on ensuring high quality public greenspace be a key part of our Downtown riverfront's near future. There was a unique opportunity and triggering events: https://www.riverfrontparksnow.org/about-us/
Met with two Mayoral administrations, DIA, Jags, Jax Chamber, Jax Civic Council, duPont, etc to share the opportunity and grow support. And it worked. Importantly, duPont became a key early torch bearer (and still is) to give it credibility and momentum. When it became clear there was buy in, the Riverfront Parks Conservancy was spun off from Riverfront Parks Now: https://riverparkjax.org/
The Conservancy's mission was to prepare to care for these future high profile parks. Surprisingly, or not, an enhanced level of maintenance for these spaces (vs a random Jax park) wasn't part of the city's original budgeting plan. The Conservancy had a MOU with COJ to move forward in this manner and raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, but wasn't fully embraced by city leadership. City leadership came around to embracing the need for a conservancy, and the organization willingly handed over the keys, recently rebranded and revamped into the Jax Riverfront Alliance, shepparded by duPont, with a mostly new board. It received millions in the most recent COJ budget and has an active job opening now for CEO: https://www.conservationjobboard.com/job-listing-chief-executive-officer-jacksonville-florida/4364752195
Scenic Jacksonville is still working, not necessarily focused on riverfront issues. Riverfront Parks Now has succeeded enormously, seeing each of its main objectives completed - lots of public green space on the river (check), high level design (check), well funded (check). It's still operating low key, now pushing for a timely plan to finish the northbank riverwalk (there is no real time line). And the Jax Riverfront Alliance is set to formally announce itself any time now, though it's existence is already in the ether of public knowledge. It will be vitally important for that entity to succeed and have massive buy in for these show piece public spaces to thrive.
Savy, engaged members of public and non-profit leadership working together are the reason, ultimately, these public spaces are coming alive, and aren't The Berkman 2 or whatever else semi-good highrise development may or may not have gotten out of ground by now. The Deagan administration deserves a lot of credit for prioritizing these projects and staying focused on completion and quality. Looking forward to more of these ribbon cuttings.
While there's certainly a lot of validity to what you're saying here (I've worked with some of these very organizations), I also don't think our statements are mutually exclusive. I've also been in many City Council and Visit Jax meetings over the years where Lori Boyer was almost single-handedly championing and looking for funding for spaces like Musical Heritage Park and St. Johns Park, and others where she was negotiationg park space for The District. Takes a village, and all parties deserve credit for what we're seeing on the ground in 2025.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 04, 2025, 10:16:34 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 03, 2025, 10:30:18 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 02, 2025, 10:22:18 PM
To me what it shows is none of this is rocket science. There was no innate failing of Jacksonville that kept us back, and it certainly wasn't a lack of support from the public or business community. The issue has always been a lack of leadership, vision and followthrough. When you don't have that, you get craters in place of buildings and a bunch of social media parrots telling you it's progress. But when you do, we're pulling off some incredibly cool things.
She got dragged a lot during her time leading the DIA, including by me, so I think it's worth giving credit where it's due. We owe Lori Boyer a lot of credit for what we're seeing happening right now on the riverfront. The "node" concept that we're starting to see take shape at RiversEdge, Friendship Park, Riverfront Plaza, and soon to be Shipyards West was her idea. Four Seasons doesn't come out of the ground without the solid development agreement they orchestrated and a very difficult land swap. Still think we missed out on the biggest opportunity we might ever see during the post-pandemic economic and immigration boom, but it's clearly night and day in terms of what the DIA has been able to accomplish alongside great city leadership vs. the previous administration.
For real. Something I realized, having gone from writing about this stuff on the outside to being in a position to see where all the levers and brakes are, is that the criticisms have been valid but sometimes directed at the wrong place. DIA could make deals, offer certain incentives and make plans, but execution relied on a lot of other factors they didn't have control over. And those other factors were typically where things failed.
The riverfront parks is a perfect example. DIA would have moved on all that years ago, and has consistently worked through the planning and design as much as funding has allowed, but the actual execution is the purview of the mayoral administration. And frankly they just dropped the ball left and right. Same deal with things like two-way street conversions, the Park Street road diet, etc. Combine that with the admin forcing through bad projects like the LaVilla gas station and the Lot J deal, and it was kind of a perfect storm.
What we're seeing now is what the DIA and city has always been capable of. Lori deserves a LOT of credit for us getting this far, and ensuring we're not just starting from scratch every time there's a new mayor and City Council class.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 04, 2025, 10:58:43 PM
^ Just providing more justification of how bad the Curry administration was. There agenda was about anything other than what was best for the City. I will leave it to your imagination who they really were serving.
Friendship Fountain/Park is a great example of this. The DIA put together a great plan and a great design for this space. And for like FOUR YEARS, it sat closed and abandoned, gathering dust. And I personally said, many times, that it was a failure of the DIA and DIA leadership to let this happen. And I think there's nothing lamer in the world than being unwilling to admit when you were wrong about something. Project wasn't stonewalled because of a lack of follow-through from the DIA. It was stonewalled because of petty political grudges against Leanna Cumber. In the same way that redevelopment of the Landing in cooperation with Tony Sleiman was stonewalled because of his endorsement of Alvin Brown.
Lenny said we wouldn't recognize the riverfront by the end of his run, and the riverfront went backwards.
Donna, meanwhile, has just quietly put forth milestones, hit her dates, and moved on to the next.
By not making it about her, and just focusing on what's best for Jax, it's the best, most effective leadership we've seen since Delaney, IMO.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 05, 2025, 12:47:15 AM
Takes a village, and all parties deserve credit for what we're seeing on the ground in 2025.
This is correct.
Which is different than what was asserted before, when the new park spaces were attributed to being Boyer"s idea.
Definitely weren't her idea, but she was an important leader in seeing these spaces come to fruition.
I'm not trying to be blindly partisan or something. I'm not some massive fan of "democrats" or anything lol. I'm not affiliated with a party.
That being said, Donna Deegan is EXACTLY the kind of figure we need in local, state, and national roles. I have been so impressed with her focus and leadership and not getting sidetracked on dumb things that don't impact people's day to day lives.
She is a great mayor and when you go and look at negative comments about her, it is clear they are grasping at straws.
Quote from: Jankelope on December 11, 2025, 09:44:49 AM
I'm not trying to be blindly partisan or something. I'm not some massive fan of "democrats" or anything lol. I'm not affiliated with a party.
That being said, Donna Deegan is EXACTLY the kind of figure we need in local, state, and national roles. I have been so impressed with her focus and leadership and not getting sidetracked on dumb things that don't impact people's day to day lives.
She is a great mayor and when you go and look at negative comments about her, it is clear they are grasping at straws.
No, not really. She has done both good & bad things. The issue is that her two "bad things" are the U2C and the Jags Agreement.. both unfortunently are much more significant than most of the other good deeds on her behalf.
Quote from: Jankelope on December 11, 2025, 09:44:49 AM
I'm not trying to be blindly partisan or something. I'm not some massive fan of "democrats" or anything lol. I'm not affiliated with a party.
That being said, Donna Deegan is EXACTLY the kind of figure we need in local, state, and national roles. I have been so impressed with her focus and leadership and not getting sidetracked on dumb things that don't impact people's day to day lives.
She is a great mayor and when you go and look at negative comments about her, it is clear they are grasping at straws.
I am blindly partisan, but I've been watching this stuff for a long time, and I agree! Right person at the right time.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 11, 2025, 11:35:18 AM
Quote from: Jankelope on December 11, 2025, 09:44:49 AM
I'm not trying to be blindly partisan or something. I'm not some massive fan of "democrats" or anything lol. I'm not affiliated with a party.
That being said, Donna Deegan is EXACTLY the kind of figure we need in local, state, and national roles. I have been so impressed with her focus and leadership and not getting sidetracked on dumb things that don't impact people's day to day lives.
She is a great mayor and when you go and look at negative comments about her, it is clear they are grasping at straws.
I am blindly partisan, but I've been watching this stuff for a long time, and I agree! Right person at the right time.
I agree as well; right person, right time, focused, and overall she is right on track and things are humming right along, regardless whether some agree or not; much better than the previous administrations and Mayors IMO.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on December 11, 2025, 11:26:03 AM
The issue is that her two "bad things" are the U2C and the Jags Agreement.. both unfortunently are much more significant than most of the other good deeds on her behalf.
Just curious, why the Jags agreement? Without ignoring the fact that the NFL is an ugly monopoly exploiting nearly every city it's in (and in particular, smaller markets), I don't know how we could have possibly gotten a better deal if we wanted to keep our NFL franchise. The Jags could have demanded a new stadium, but pushed for a more city-friendly rebuild. I think it's totally fair that the city picked up the tab for deferred maintenance of back repairs. The 50/50 split on construction ($625 million each, with the Jags covering cost overruns) feels very fair, by NFL standards, for a stadium that will never be a cash cow for the Jags like SoFi or MetLife. The $300 million CBA has funded four new riverfront parks that the city was already planning, and the Eastside should benefit greatly. And, to top it all off, the Jags agreed to a 30-year lease extension off a refurb, rather than a rebuild. By NFL standards, it's a solid deal.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 11, 2025, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on December 11, 2025, 11:26:03 AM
The issue is that her two "bad things" are the U2C and the Jags Agreement.. both unfortunently are much more significant than most of the other good deeds on her behalf.
Just curious, why the Jags agreement? Without ignoring the fact that the NFL is an ugly monopoly exploiting nearly every city it's in (and in particular, smaller markets), I don't know how we could have possibly gotten a better deal if we wanted to keep our NFL franchise. The Jags could have demanded a new stadium, but pushed for a more city-friendly rebuild. I think it's totally fair that the city picked up the tab for deferred maintenance of back repairs. The 50/50 split on construction ($625 million each, with the Jags covering cost overruns) feels very fair, by NFL standards, for a stadium that will never be a cash cow for the Jags like SoFi or MetLife. The $300 million CBA has funded four new riverfront parks that the city was already planning, and the Eastside should benefit greatly. And, to top it all off, the Jags agreed to a 30-year lease extension off a refurb, rather than a rebuild. By NFL standards, it's a solid deal.
Parking Agreement. The Mayor or her office won't acknowledge it because they didn't (or still don't) realize the error there. You won't find another agreement in any stadium deal in the US with 50+ acres given away for game-day parking. In our case, it just so happens to be the land around $1b+ of public investment in our downtown overlay.
Pretty much as stupid as it gets.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on December 11, 2025, 01:36:06 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 11, 2025, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on December 11, 2025, 11:26:03 AM
The issue is that her two "bad things" are the U2C and the Jags Agreement.. both unfortunently are much more significant than most of the other good deeds on her behalf.
Just curious, why the Jags agreement? Without ignoring the fact that the NFL is an ugly monopoly exploiting nearly every city it's in (and in particular, smaller markets), I don't know how we could have possibly gotten a better deal if we wanted to keep our NFL franchise. The Jags could have demanded a new stadium, but pushed for a more city-friendly rebuild. I think it's totally fair that the city picked up the tab for deferred maintenance of back repairs. The 50/50 split on construction ($625 million each, with the Jags covering cost overruns) feels very fair, by NFL standards, for a stadium that will never be a cash cow for the Jags like SoFi or MetLife. The $300 million CBA has funded four new riverfront parks that the city was already planning, and the Eastside should benefit greatly. And, to top it all off, the Jags agreed to a 30-year lease extension off a refurb, rather than a rebuild. By NFL standards, it's a solid deal.
Parking Agreement. The Mayor or her office won't acknowledge it because they didn't (or still don't) realize the error there. You won't find another agreement in any stadium deal in the US with 50+ acres given away for game-day parking. In our case, it just so happens to be the land around $1b+ of public investment in our downtown overlay.
Pretty much as stupid as it gets.
If there were a problem we'd acknowledge and fix it, you're just wrong.
I think it's interesting to me because there's no way that a Daniel Davis administration wouldn't also include a Jaguars Stadium deal. I think that has to be acknowledged as something that was going to happen no matter what unless someone wanted to be the mayor that lost the Jaguars.
I think of it more as $21 million a year for 30 years to stay an NFL franchise. We have given developers $21 million to sit around and do nothing for 5 years before. Think about all the things we have wasted $21 million a year on over the Curry years.
Additionally, we used the opportunity to get big investment in these transformational parks and infrastructure investments. The stadium deal is one piece of all of that.
You have to start from the starting point of "The cost of being an NFL city is to subsidize a billionaire for a stadium"
If you compare our deal to just about any NFL city in the last 5 years doing these stadium deals, I think we got the best deal. Now...if you genuinely think the right thing to do was to give up being an NFL city and have an abandoned stadium downtown to save 1.5% of the annual budget...I think you would have a hard time finding the person who could win that election.
Deegan has over a 60% approval. That is actually quite astounding in Jacksonville in THIS political environment. It's hard for me to imagine her losing next year, especially if the strategy is just "everything sucks, we're wasting money on everything, radical leftist, blah blah blah" because that is just absolutely NOT Deegan. She has been remarkably un-partisan and has increased all kinds of transparency measures.
Also U2C is a disaster. I was hoping Deegan would come in and derail that. I am not sure what the issues are with doing that. That half cent sales tax could literally fully fund MOSH, emerald trail, etc.
Quote from: Jankelope on December 11, 2025, 02:33:54 PM
I think it's interesting to me because there's no way that a Daniel Davis administration wouldn't also include a Jaguars Stadium deal. I think that has to be acknowledged as something that was going to happen no matter what unless someone wanted to be the mayor that lost the Jaguars.
Totally fair point. Very few mayors were going to lose the Jags on their watch. I don't think that a Davis Administration would have approached it the same way though. I think the CBA was much more important to the Deegan administration than it would have been to Davis. The parks are clearly more important to this administration than they were to Curry. And I'm not sure we'd be going the pay-go route under a different administration. So, while the stadium agreement may have happened either way, I think the impact of that stadium agreement and how it's felt across the community and budget will be fairly night and day in the long run.
Also, even though the doomers hate them and find them a scourge on the city, you've gotta give the Jags a ton of credit too for how they responded to the Lot J meltdown. They could have been bitter. But they learned from it, actively engaged the community for two straight years leading up to negotiations through Town Halls and FirstTouchDownJax, and made things as simply and transparent as possible. I think they learned a lot from the clandestine meetings with Curry & Brian Hughes and where that led, and (though I can't speak for them), I'd guess that they respect and enjoy doing business with Deegan far more than the three-ring circus they got caught up in previously.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 11, 2025, 02:21:50 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on December 11, 2025, 01:36:06 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 11, 2025, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on December 11, 2025, 11:26:03 AM
The issue is that her two "bad things" are the U2C and the Jags Agreement.. both unfortunently are much more significant than most of the other good deeds on her behalf.
Just curious, why the Jags agreement? Without ignoring the fact that the NFL is an ugly monopoly exploiting nearly every city it's in (and in particular, smaller markets), I don't know how we could have possibly gotten a better deal if we wanted to keep our NFL franchise. The Jags could have demanded a new stadium, but pushed for a more city-friendly rebuild. I think it's totally fair that the city picked up the tab for deferred maintenance of back repairs. The 50/50 split on construction ($625 million each, with the Jags covering cost overruns) feels very fair, by NFL standards, for a stadium that will never be a cash cow for the Jags like SoFi or MetLife. The $300 million CBA has funded four new riverfront parks that the city was already planning, and the Eastside should benefit greatly. And, to top it all off, the Jags agreed to a 30-year lease extension off a refurb, rather than a rebuild. By NFL standards, it's a solid deal.
Parking Agreement. The Mayor or her office won't acknowledge it because they didn't (or still don't) realize the error there. You won't find another agreement in any stadium deal in the US with 50+ acres given away for game-day parking. In our case, it just so happens to be the land around $1b+ of public investment in our downtown overlay.
Pretty much as stupid as it gets.
If there were a problem we'd acknowledge and fix it, you're just wrong.
Articulate response there. Guess you haven't read the agreement. It's in black & white. LOL.
Quote from: Jankelope on December 11, 2025, 02:33:54 PM
I think it's interesting to me because there's no way that a Daniel Davis administration wouldn't also include a Jaguars Stadium deal. I think that has to be acknowledged as something that was going to happen no matter what unless someone wanted to be the mayor that lost the Jaguars.
I think of it more as $21 million a year for 30 years to stay an NFL franchise. We have given developers $21 million to sit around and do nothing for 5 years before. Think about all the things we have wasted $21 million a year on over the Curry years.
Additionally, we used the opportunity to get big investment in these transformational parks and infrastructure investments. The stadium deal is one piece of all of that.
You have to start from the starting point of "The cost of being an NFL city is to subsidize a billionaire for a stadium"
If you compare our deal to just about any NFL city in the last 5 years doing these stadium deals, I think we got the best deal. Now...if you genuinely think the right thing to do was to give up being an NFL city and have an abandoned stadium downtown to save 1.5% of the annual budget...I think you would have a hard time finding the person who could win that election.
Deegan has over a 60% approval. That is actually quite astounding in Jacksonville in THIS political environment. It's hard for me to imagine her losing next year, especially if the strategy is just "everything sucks, we're wasting money on everything, radical leftist, blah blah blah" because that is just absolutely NOT Deegan. She has been remarkably un-partisan and has increased all kinds of transparency measures.
I agree with a lot of your points & I think other than a few critical errors it has been a smooth ship. Although, like I said, the mayor's office won't acknowledge the parking agreement error. It'll probably take until 2027 to really feel the burn there when the MOSH & shipyards are unable to provide the legal mandate and the city (legally) will need to acknowledge this. :)
Quote from: Jankelope on December 11, 2025, 02:40:05 PM
Also U2C is a disaster. I was hoping Deegan would come in and derail that. I am not sure what the issues are with doing that. That half cent sales tax could literally fully fund MOSH, emerald trail, etc.
U2C isn't being funded through sales tax. JTA gets funds through the local option gas tax - money that can be (and is being) used for Emerald Trail - but not for something like MOSH.
Random tactical question about the riverwalk and Phase 2 of this: Once the Music Heritage section and opens and the McCoy's creek section reopens (by like January/February I want to say), the entire riverwalk will be reconnected EXCEPT the Phase 2 area of Riverfront Plaza....which is like 2 years away.
Would it be possible to path a very quick/inexpensive route through the old Landing parking lot as to not just have a complete dead-end on both sides?
One would think that an easy temporary solution can be figured out to open the connection. COJ just needs to remember that isn't rocket science.
^ from what I have heard, there has been discussion on opening a temporary riverwalk path through the area
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 15, 2025, 10:46:35 AM
^ from what I have heard, there has been discussion on opening a temporary riverwalk path through the area
Stay tuned.
The JTA solution - Strap lots of 'pool floaties' to the NAVI vehicles and go around the gap via the river.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 15, 2025, 10:46:35 AM
^ from what I have heard, there has been discussion on opening a temporary riverwalk path through the area
You can already just walk around it by going under the MSB ramp but it's not signed at all.
Took my daughter a couple of nights ago to check out Phase I. You can argue whether a park is the best use for the space, but you cannot argue with how well it was executed. The playground space is so well done, and nothing about it feels on the cheap. Crazy how many cool features and overlooks the design team was able to include. Pretty brilliant too, the decision to shift the playground to atop the cafe building. When you think of how strong the park space on the river has become with Friendship Park, Riverfont Plaza, and RiversEdge this year, it is legit sick to think that we've still got Phase 2 of Riverfront Plaza, Phase 2 of St. John's Park, Shipyards West, Met Park, Musical Heritage Park, McCoys Creek Park, and greenspace at MOSH and the Four Seasons coming. Mentioned it in another thread, but this could genuinely be Jax's thing that we've needed for well over 50 years to give our downtown an identity and unique value prop.
They're doing the right things. They aren't cheaping out. Construction costs will always go up, so the sooner you build all these things, the better.
I think this is going to end up being the identity of the city for tourists, visitors, and locals. Things like Jazz festival become so exciting in this context. I can see many more signature events coming with dozens of boats and taxis taking people between the north and south bank.
Exciting stuff.
Per the JBJ, it looks like the restaurant parcel may be moving forward after all?
QuoteRiverfront Plaza Restaurant
The DIA will consider a resolution on terms, conditions and scoring for a parcel within Riverfront Plaza to be leased and operated by a restaurant. The city's newest park, which opened its first phase in December 2025, spans 7.75 acres and has an approximately 19,000-square-foot parcel set aside for a future food and beverage concept. The building will be an approximately 6,000-square-foot warm shell with about 3,000 square feet of outdoor space. After submission of proposals, which the city will score for up to 100 points, the chosen operator will enter a lease with the city and finish the buildout of the restaurant shell.
Awesome news, assuming the JBJ isn't confusing the cafe shell with the restaurant parcel.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/01/16/dia-meeting-preview.html
I think some advocacy organizations didn't like the idea of the Riverfront Restaurant because of how it could block potential river views from parts of the park. I think I can see both cases, but am ultimately in favor of the restaurant I think because of how it can complement the future retail, beer garden, public art (please LERP statue!), etc
This is not the park that is going to be a nature oriented experience. I really think Met Park is going for that and is looking like it's going to nail it. This is really a park that needs to be vibrant with many different experiences on offer.
I would love to get an update on how quickly they expect Phase 2 to move. We really need it done in 2026, but I know that is not likely.
Coincidentally, the same DIA Board meeting discussing the old MOSH building and the old Courthouse site, will also consider authorizing staff to request proposals for the Riverfront Restaurant lease.
Begins on page 53 of the agenda: https://dia.jacksonville.gov/cms/getattachment/4846c520-07fe-41a3-a8f3-fc6b027066c2/20260121_DIA-Board-Meeting-Agenda-Packet
[/quote]
XHIBIT 1
ERIVERFRONT PLAZA RESTAURANT OPERATOR
Detailed Proposal Submission Requirements
Introduction
The Downtown Investment Authority ("DIA") seeks proposals from qualified, experienced, and well-capitalized food and beverage operators to dispose of a leasehold interest and operate a destination restaurant at Riverfront Plaza in Downtown Jacksonville. The building will be approximately 6,000 square feet of first floor conditioned space, approximately 3,000 square feet of outdoor patio space and will consider a rooftop bar and/or seating area.
The DIA will build and deliver a warm dark shell and own the restaurant facility and intends to enter into a long-term lease with a third-party operator capable of delivering a high-quality, financially sustainable, and publicly engaging riverfront dining experience. The chosen operator will be responsible for contributing input to the design of the building and interior as well as providing all furniture, fixtures and equipment.
[/quote]
None of the agenda materials provide a schedule for the proposed solicitation.
Quote from: Jankelope on January 16, 2026, 12:24:23 PM
I think some advocacy organizations didn't like the idea of the Riverfront Restaurant because of how it could block potential river views from parts of the park.
What's a bit odd to me, though I love the new space, is that the elevated central lawn does a pretty good by itself blocking river views from certain angles. After a decade or two of discussions about the need to open up the Landing in the center to allow river views from Laura Street, it's quite hard to even see the river from Laura Street because the central lawn is elevated. You just kind of see a grass mound. Was kind of surprised when the construction fencing came down that the river view was so obstructed.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 22, 2026, 12:32:03 AM
After a decade or two of discussions about the need to open up the Landing in the center to allow river views from Laura Street, it's quite hard to even see the river from Laura Street because the central lawn is elevated. You just kind of see a grass mound. Was kind of surprised when the construction fencing came down that the river view was so obstructed.
That's because it was
never about opening up Laura Street to a river view... it was always about settling a political grudge and getting Tony Sleiman out of the Landing. Period. End Of Sentence.
If anyone cannot admit that now, they are simply lying to themselves.
Going on seven years now, COJ has spent somewhere approaching $80MM now to acquire the Landing, evict tenants, tear down the Landing, prep the site, reconstruct a bulkhead that was less than 10 years old, tear down bridge ramps, reconstruct docks that were destroyed NINE years ago by a hurricane, redirect a street. build
HALF of a park with an empty cafe space and still has an undeveloped parcel that was given to a developer for free because COJ didn't have the foresight to acquire a building (Interline Brands) from THEIR OWN Lessee once they vacated the building from a previously failed economic development agreement that tore down an entire Downtown neighborhood (LaVilla) 30 years ago.. and that aforementioned undeveloped riverfront parcel will require even more cash grants, property tax breaks, and the like to get built sometime in the next 5-10 years (fully supportive of the conceptual proposed use, FWIW).
Now DIA wants to spend BAGS of cash (that they dont have) to build another restaurant space where 7 riverfront restaurant spaces once stood as of six years ago. All but one of those 'nonviable' restaurant operators that were evicted (to quote a former City 'official') have opened new locations in North Florida after leaving the Landing (one even had the courage to open Downtown again).
I've learned three unmistakable truths about Downtown:
1-Using taxpayer funds to tear down buildings for potential future 'uses' due to 'interest' has NEVER worked in DT Jax (yet even this week, DIA is still INSANELY choosing to do so).
2-DT suffers not because of lack of investment, but because decisions are made solely by and for the benefit of a group of connected people that simply use Downtown as an ATM machine
3-The City of Jacksonville (DIA, DDA, EDC, whatever the rebrand of the organization is) is Downtown's biggest slumlord and should be out of the business of being a landlord.
All three of those truths are front and center about Lenny's Lawn.
Its never, ever, ever been about a 'view corridor'.
The latest version of the DIA board, and the latest head of the DIA sure sounds a lot like every other version we've had.
Re: Sightlines.
Was just walking down Laura Street, and this is what I noted a few days back as being a little strange/unfortunate for an otherwise beautifully designed park.
The elevated central green pretty much destroys any view of the river from Laura Street. You honestly wouldn't even know the river was there. It's not an overly inviting view that pulls pedestrians in, IMO.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpwdzrbD/IMG-0118.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8Vv5BxR/IMG-0120.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4zDJtBX/IMG-0121.jpg)
Is the 'mound' due to flooding concerns?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 30, 2026, 02:21:51 PM
Is the 'mound' due to flooding concerns?
From my understanding, based on Perkins&Will original presentation, elevating the central lawn was a design decision meant to maximize river views from that area. The tradeoff being, obviously, that you kind of kill sightlines and river views for everything on the street side of the mound by elevating the entire center of the park. I'm not a park designer, but it's certainly a choice that I would not have made unless absolutely necessary for resiliency.
After great communication early and the I Dig Jax communication initiative/outreach about a year ago, I feel like we're due for another update from the mayor's office on park status.
Right now, it feels like there are a ton of unknowns.
1. What in the world is going on with the Pearl?
2. When will the city fill the cafe space at the new Riverfront Plaza?
3. What does the beer garden in Phase 2 look like in reality (e.g. where will the beverages come from - fixed concessions or temporary?)
4. What's the status of the centerpiece public art piece for Riverfront Plaza?
5. What is the plan for the former MOSH space?
6. What will happen to the riverwalk/connections during ongoing construction?
7. What's the status of McCoy's Creek?
8. Do we have final designs for Shipyards West park?
9. What's going on with the proposed JWJ Park redesign?
10. When can we expect Musical Heritage Park to be open to the public?
11. When will the Metro Park redesign break ground?
12. What is the status and timelines of restaurant projects at Friendship Fountain & Riverfront Plaza.
13. What are the next steps/milestones for Related's private development at Riverfront Plaza, and how will park construction be affected.
14. What is the plan of attack for the Emerald Trail, in terms of backfilling for the lost grant of changing the project to fit existing budget.
Would love to see the early momentum in terms of keeping the public in the loop and involved continue here in the second year.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 30, 2026, 03:00:01 PMRight now, it feels like there are a ton of unknowns.
1. What in the world is going on with the Pearl?
2. When will the city fill the cafe space at the new Riverfront Plaza?
3. What does the beer garden in Phase 2 look like in reality (e.g. where will the beverages come from - fixed concessions or temporary?)
4. What's the status of the centerpiece public art piece for Riverfront Plaza?
5. What is the plan for the former MOSH space?
6. What will happen to the riverwalk/connections during ongoing construction?
7. What's the status of McCoy's Creek?
8. Do we have final designs for Shipyards West park?
9. What's going on with the proposed JWJ Park redesign?
10. When can we expect Musical Heritage Park to be open to the public?
11. When will the Metro Park redesign break ground?
12. What is the status and timelines of restaurant projects at Friendship Fountain & Riverfront Plaza.
Would love to see the early momentum in terms of keeping the public in the loop and involved continue here in the second year.
All of this.
^ You can add, when will the City replace the letter "A" in the Laura Street marker? 8)
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 30, 2026, 06:21:46 PM
^ You can add, when will the City replace the letter "A" in the Laura Street marker? 8)
Have walked by ten times and didn't even notice ;D
Must need more sleep.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 30, 2026, 03:00:01 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 30, 2026, 02:21:51 PM
Is the 'mound' due to flooding concerns?
From my understanding, based on Perkins&Will original presentation, elevating the central lawn was a design decision meant to maximize river views from that area. The tradeoff being, obviously, that you kind of kill sightlines and river views for everything on the street side of the mound by elevating the entire center of the park. I'm not a park designer, but it's certainly a choice that I would not have made unless absolutely necessary for resiliency.
After great communication early and the I Dig Jax communication initiative/outreach about a year ago, I feel like we're due for another update from the mayor's office on park status.
Right now, it feels like there are a ton of unknowns.
1. What in the world is going on with the Pearl?
2. When will the city fill the cafe space at the new Riverfront Plaza?
3. What does the beer garden in Phase 2 look like in reality (e.g. where will the beverages come from - fixed concessions or temporary?)
4. What's the status of the centerpiece public art piece for Riverfront Plaza?
5. What is the plan for the former MOSH space?
6. What will happen to the riverwalk/connections during ongoing construction?
7. What's the status of McCoy's Creek?
8. Do we have final designs for Shipyards West park?
9. What's going on with the proposed JWJ Park redesign?
10. When can we expect Musical Heritage Park to be open to the public?
11. When will the Metro Park redesign break ground?
12. What is the status and timelines of restaurant projects at Friendship Fountain & Riverfront Plaza.
13. What are the next steps/milestones for Related's private development at Riverfront Plaza, and how will park construction be affected.
14. What is the plan of attack for the Emerald Trail, in terms of backfilling for the lost grant of changing the project to fit existing budget.
Would love to see the early momentum in terms of keeping the public in the loop and involved continue here in the second year.
Good call, I'll see what I can do.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 01, 2026, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 30, 2026, 03:00:01 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 30, 2026, 02:21:51 PM
Is the 'mound' due to flooding concerns?
From my understanding, based on Perkins&Will original presentation, elevating the central lawn was a design decision meant to maximize river views from that area. The tradeoff being, obviously, that you kind of kill sightlines and river views for everything on the street side of the mound by elevating the entire center of the park. I'm not a park designer, but it's certainly a choice that I would not have made unless absolutely necessary for resiliency.
After great communication early and the I Dig Jax communication initiative/outreach about a year ago, I feel like we're due for another update from the mayor's office on park status.
Right now, it feels like there are a ton of unknowns.
1. What in the world is going on with the Pearl?
2. When will the city fill the cafe space at the new Riverfront Plaza?
3. What does the beer garden in Phase 2 look like in reality (e.g. where will the beverages come from - fixed concessions or temporary?)
4. What's the status of the centerpiece public art piece for Riverfront Plaza?
5. What is the plan for the former MOSH space?
6. What will happen to the riverwalk/connections during ongoing construction?
7. What's the status of McCoy's Creek?
8. Do we have final designs for Shipyards West park?
9. What's going on with the proposed JWJ Park redesign?
10. When can we expect Musical Heritage Park to be open to the public?
11. When will the Metro Park redesign break ground?
12. What is the status and timelines of restaurant projects at Friendship Fountain & Riverfront Plaza.
13. What are the next steps/milestones for Related's private development at Riverfront Plaza, and how will park construction be affected.
14. What is the plan of attack for the Emerald Trail, in terms of backfilling for the lost grant of changing the project to fit existing budget.
Would love to see the early momentum in terms of keeping the public in the loop and involved continue here in the second year.
Good call, I'll see what I can do.
You the man, Bill!
Just walked through JWJ Park. Sad to see how it's pretty much devolved back into a spot where the bums* play cards and everyone else avoids. The park staff appears to be down to just one guy (Randy, who is awesome), the public art and fountains have largely been removed, the kids play area has been decommissioned, and the movable furniture (aside from the card tables) no longer seems to be put out.
*Before I worked down here, I would have been aghast at classifying the park's homeless population as "bums." But when you see the same able-bodied and able-minded individuals (of all backgrounds, to be clear) loitering in the park all day, every day, for years, smoking weed and leaving trash everywhere, I don't really what other word to use.
Clearly not budget to prioritize every public space at once, particularly in a city so opposed to anything that even resembles taxation, but I remain fully convinced that JWJP is every bit as important as Riverfront Plaza, and even more important than the other riverfront parks. Would love to see any master plan that ever does come to fruition treat this spot as our proper, central town square, with flexible uses, regular programming, and permanent amenities. It's such an important epicenter for everything going on between the Gateway development and the riverfront.
^Take the demo money set aside for MOSH and sink it into that space for a quick win.
How is the 'Lift Every Voice and Sing' park doing? Is it being visited by homeless as well or is it empty a lot of the time or s it filled often and by non-homeless residents?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 03, 2026, 01:35:47 PM
Just walked through JWJ Park. Sad to see how it's pretty much devolved back into a spot where the bums* play cards and everyone else avoids. The park staff appears to be down to just one guy (Randy, who is awesome), the public art and fountains have largely been removed, the kids play area has been decommissioned, and the movable furniture (aside from the card tables) no longer seems to be put out.
*Before I worked down here, I would have been aghast at classifying the park's homeless population as "bums." But when you see the same able-bodied and able-minded individuals (of all backgrounds, to be clear) loitering in the park all day, every day, for years, smoking weed and leaving trash everywhere, I don't really what other word to use.
Clearly not budget to prioritize every public space at once, particularly in a city so opposed to anything that even resembles taxation, but I remain fully convinced that JWJP is every bit as important as Riverfront Plaza, and even more important than the other riverfront parks. Would love to see any master plan that ever does come to fruition treat this spot as our proper, central town square, with flexible uses, regular programming, and permanent amenities. It's such an important epicenter for everything going on between the Gateway development and the riverfront.
Make JWJ Park into Bryant Park (NYC) for an easy, successful resolution. A complex checker board of uses (the current proposal) isn't needed, sometimes the simple/classic/more affordable design is the best.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 03, 2026, 03:39:36 PM
How is the 'Lift Every Voice and Sing' park doing? Is it being visited by homeless as well or is it empty a lot of the time or s it filled often and by non-homeless residents?
It is maintained better than the typical Jacksonville public space. I tend to keep an eye on it since its in LaVilla and linked to a number of neighborhood revitalization initiatives going on at the moment. duPont has a group that tries to program the park with events. Outside of special event time, people attracted to Salvation Army's services across the street to visit the space. In recent months, its been cool to see the vision begin to come together with the development of the adjacent townhouses and Emerald Trail. Its an area of LaVilla that's coming back to life. Once the townhouses are complete, my guess is the park will become a destination for homeowners walking their dogs, trail users and people experiencing cultural heritage sites in Jacksonville. Here are a few pictures that I've taken over the last few months.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/LaVilla---May-2025/i-KrvCbkf/0/KMLJ9zbnj75m388C8GqNjxRFqNvbgdcnsmxgKdrBJ/XL/20250511_130243-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/LaVilla---May-2025/i-Lb5gJr4/0/LbKbBsr9vTnVjxhRCM49KN9n6GGFdR6VXpWXLtXWq/XL/20250511_130628-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/LaVilla---May-2025/i-frJKGmk/0/Mk5VrXXWwZBjdrpwh2B5xLv2BMV6WVrLqwVxBQr58/XL/20250511_134602-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/LEVS-Park-Heritage-Signs/i-JxF9dkn/0/MdN6njz3WVgfpGzHvMDkzjZFWN5Ft6mfB6tnXDZdw/XL/20250215_134346-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/LEVS-Park-Heritage-Signs/i-FJWpP2T/0/M33vMCNvLN427JnJ5DGB9LQsWQZGBdG6CczDfmbW5/XL/20241107_104634-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/LaVilla---May-2025/i-F8r52Mx/0/NB38CZzj9XMjdkkpPhrQcMJPCPbrDLgTsR9HfDRqz/XL/20250511_130839-XL.jpg)
This is one of my favorite vision to implementation pictures. We don't want concentrated poverty and affordable housing in the neighborhood, because to have an economic base and to support the retail people would like to see, we'll need people with disposable income living there too. There's also an eye towards maintaining and strengthening LaVilla's cultural heritage and historic demographics. By having a market rate produce like Johnson Commons in the neighborhood, it is drawing a concentration of group of people that is much more aligned with LaVilla's historic ethnic diversity than most suburban areas of the city.
Love that the guy on the third floor balcony is looking at me like "who is the weird guy taking random pictures in my neighborhood," not knowing any idea of where we were at with this neighborhood five to ten years ago.
Thanks, Lake.
I did not see any units on Realtor.com, are these rental units only?
They are for sale townhouse products.
https://breezehomes.com/communities/johnson-commons/
Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2026, 04:58:08 PM
They are for sale townhouse products.
https://breezehomes.com/communities/johnson-commons/
Nice. Thinking about moving back to Jax; if I do, downtown is probably my #1 option.