Virtually attended the DIA SIC meeting today. Mark Lamping showed off some renderings of a new Four Seasons at Metro Park, as well as a wider plan for their development.
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Lamping said that Cordish will not be joining Khan on anything south of Bay Street. He also said that there would be meeting space in the hotel, but what stands out is that they seem to have formally dropped plans for a convention center. Over two years after basically derailing proposals at what is now the Ford on Bay in favor of their past proposal, it appears they've moved on.
So we torpedoed the convention center discussion and timeline for nothing? It's best to see everything on a grand scale, to better understand the long term vision. Any update on the status of the Ford on Bay negotiations or how much money they'd potentially ask for the stuff south of Bay Street?
Explanatory Twitter Thread (https://twitter.com/DavidBauerlein/status/1326903338848411656?s=20).
QuoteJaguars President Mark Lamping tells DIA that plan for The Shipyards/Met Park area includes a Four Seasons Hotel. This would be on the other side of Bay Street from Lot J development. It would be 177 rooms and will have residential space as well for sale
Also would have a spa area. Development would have retail along a riverwalk. Plan would have a 50,000 medical center for orthopedic services. Lamping says would generate medical tourism. "We think it's really important to have that medical component."
Jaguars owner Shad Khan owns a Four Seasons hotel in Canada. He has hinted in the past that a Four Seasons in Jacksonville would be the goal but this is first time Jaguars say publicly it would be a Four Seasons brand
The DIA asked Lamping to talk about how Lot J would fit in with plans for development of Shipyards/Met Park. There is nothing on the table for an actual proposed development agreement for Shipyards/Met Park which would require a separate process for choosing a master developer
Lamping says Lot J "primes the pump" for what would come next
Lamping says Shad Khan would be the sole owner of the Four Season and his investment would be the reason for the hotel being in Jacksonville
The plan does not seem to include a convention center which I think has been part of past visions for redevelopment of Met Park area.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
So we torpedoed the convention center discussion and timeline for nothing? It's best to see everything on a grand scale, to better understand the long term vision.
Looks like it. #TheJaxWay
QuoteAny update on the status of the Ford on Bay negotiations or how much money they'd potentially ask for the stuff south of Bay Street?
Nothing has been brought up at this meeting on that. Lamping said these renderings was just to show what's coming next, I don't think any details on cost were given.
Cool. Interesting to have a medical center proposed so close to the river.
Nate Monroe (https://twitter.com/NateMonroeTU/status/1326916775041228802) making our point.
QuoteSo the city puts out an RFP for a new convention center on a different downtown parcel. Multiple companies submit bids and spend real money and time advocating them. Khan, who didn't bid, later says he's interested in building one. The city promptly scraps RFP. And now?
Maybe this Met Park proposal is wonderful. I'm sure with enough taxpayer cash behind it, it can be. But the constant bait-and-switch with Khan is just comical at this point.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 11:03:28 AM
Cool. Interesting to have a medical center proposed so close to the river.
Agreed! Many of the NFL players fly into Charlotte, Atlanta, and Philadelphia for their ortho consultations and surgeries. So, it will be nice to have a nice hotel nearby.
What's really unfortunate is how badly Curry and Aaron Zahn poisoned the well in terms of a potential JEA sale.
Privatizing our public utility is obviously a huge decision that should not be taken lightly, but we had offers up to $11 billion on the table.
All of these problems that we talk about in terms of pre-consolidation promises, downtown development, infrastructure, convention center, stadium improvements, park space, etc. could be addressed rapidly, really catapulting the city forward had a sale been transparently vetted and voted upon.
Not sure if the tradeoffs would have been worth it, but it's unfortunate that we can't even really have that conversation as a city because of how poorly it was handled by those in charge.
I don't see any U2C in the renderings...
Quote from: Jagsdrew on November 12, 2020, 01:14:23 PM
I don't see any U2C in the renderings...
Save for some offhand remarks by JTA staff saying they've talked with the Jags, and some very early renderings back in 2017, there's been no obvious attempt to put any serious infrastructure down to the stadium. The U2C plans show that it's supposed to go out there, but it's not clear what communication or planning is happening between JTA and the Jags for it.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2020, 12:52:46 PM
What's really unfortunate is how badly Curry and Aaron Zahn poisoned the well in terms of a potential JEA sale.
Privatizing our public utility is obviously a huge decision that should not be taken lightly, but we had offers up to $11 billion on the table.
All of these problems that we talk about in terms of pre-consolidation promises, downtown development, infrastructure, convention center, stadium improvements, park space, etc. could be addressed rapidly, really catapulting the city forward had a sale been transparently vetted and voted upon.
Not sure if the tradeoffs would have been worth it, but it's unfortunate that we can't even really have that conversation as a city because of how poorly it was handled by those in charge.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'd trust this administration to responsibly spend several billion dollars. Also, I do see JEA as an important public asset, so I don't know if I'd really support a sale period. The way it was done makes it a certainty that the current people in charge couldn't be trusted to do it.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 12, 2020, 01:33:16 PMYeah, I'm not sure I'd trust this administration to responsibly spend several billion dollars.
100% agree here.
Fox guarding the henhouse.
is there a link to this?
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/jaguars-owner-wants-to-build-a-four-seasons-hotel-downtown
Question:
Are there other examples of Four Seasons in similar areas of other cities? Ie, within easy walking distance of extreme blight & poverty?
This seems like it would be pursued well after Lot J is finished, and is being presented now as a carrot to get city council & public approval for Lot J incentives.
Since Khan's development agreement for the City-owned Shipyards expired, won't the city have to issue a new RFP (or whatever the appropriate RF- is)? Need to see if anyone else is interested, how much they are bringing to the table, and how much they want from the City.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 12, 2020, 03:39:50 PM
Since Khan's development agreement for the City-owned Shipyards expired, won't the city have to issue a new RFP (or whatever the appropriate RF- is)? Need to see if anyone else is interested, how much they are bringing to the table, and how much they want from the City.
Yep.
Step 1 is to get clearance from the feds for the land swap.
Step 2 is to RFP the property.
The only reason that Lot J didn't require an RFP is because the Jags technically control that land as part of their lease on the stadium.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on November 12, 2020, 03:34:51 PMThis seems like it would be pursued well after Lot J is finished, and is being presented now as a carrot to get city council & public approval for Lot J incentives.
Releasing the renderings is certainly a carrot on a string, but the Four Seasons and surrounding development at Met Park has been a poorly kept secret for the last two years or so. The DIA has been pretty heavily involved in the chats, and the city has been trying to free up Met Park for the development for close to a year now.
Definitely feels like it would trail Lot J by a few years though.
Newest long-term plan for a convention center location is apparently at the site of the jail/police building :o
It looks like 2 cruise ships inverted to form a boomerang or "V."
Lamping did say that it was meant to invoke the image of a ship, for some reason.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2020, 05:07:43 PM
Newest long-term plan for a convention center location is apparently at the site of the jail/police building :o
Lol, I really wish we just deal with the present term. Because our present is the long term. We've been talking about a new convention center for 20 years now. Just stick a well designed mixed use box on the back of the Hyatt and check this one off the list. We can worry about the jail in 2070.
Quote from: heights unknown on November 12, 2020, 05:28:59 PM
It looks like 2 cruise ships inverted to form a boomerang or "V."
Or the "after" photo of a very bad collison of two cruise ships.
Any word on timeframes or funding?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2020, 04:49:19 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 12, 2020, 03:39:50 PM
Since Khan's development agreement for the City-owned Shipyards expired, won't the city have to issue a new RFP (or whatever the appropriate RF- is)? Need to see if anyone else is interested, how much they are bringing to the table, and how much they want from the City.
Yep.
Step 1 is to get clearance from the feds for the land swap.
Step 2 is to RFP the property.
The only reason that Lot J didn't require an RFP is because the Jags technically control that land as part of their lease on the stadium.
Is that about a 3-month timeline to get
suckers consultants to develop and submit proposals so the City can select Khan?
Quote from: minder on November 12, 2020, 06:56:23 PM
Any word on timeframes or funding?
Per the Daily Record, it's a two phase project.
Phase I would include 177 hotel rooms and 20-30 for sale units, all under the Four Seasons flag, along with 50,000 sf of medical space and a 500 spot parking garage with rooftop greenspace.
The first phase would also include a 10,000 sf spa, 10,000 sf of event space, 20,000 sf of restaurant and retail space, and a possible riverwalk extension.
In terms of timing, Lamping claims that Shad Khan wants to break ground as soon as the legal hurdles with Met Park are cleared. He claimed that the Four Seasons could conceivably be starting at the same time as Lot J.
The medical center sounds like it will be operated by the Jags, and relates to the Jags needs as an NFL franchise.
Khan would be sole owner, with no involvement from Cordish, and he would retain ownership of the development, rather than the city like with Lot J.
Lamping also claimed that the approval of Lot J will pave the way for a significantly lower ask from the city for the Shipyards. $300 million is the private investment number being thrown out for this project. On paper, the public ask might be lower in terms of pure subsidy, but the hidden cost is obviously the park aspect, which isn't going to relocate itself.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 12, 2020, 10:05:14 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2020, 04:49:19 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 12, 2020, 03:39:50 PM
Since Khan's development agreement for the City-owned Shipyards expired, won't the city have to issue a new RFP (or whatever the appropriate RF- is)? Need to see if anyone else is interested, how much they are bringing to the table, and how much they want from the City.
Yep.
Step 1 is to get clearance from the feds for the land swap.
Step 2 is to RFP the property.
The only reason that Lot J didn't require an RFP is because the Jags technically control that land as part of their lease on the stadium.
Is that about a 3-month timeline to get suckers consultants to develop and submit proposals so the City can select Khan?
Noah's Ark guy better get moving.
Quote from: heights unknown on November 12, 2020, 05:28:59 PM
It looks like 2 cruise ships inverted to form a boomerang or "V."
The Jags have been in love with this ship-like design language since the first set of Shipyards renderings way back when.
Here's a video explaining the philosophy behind the design:
https://youtu.be/avaSdC0QOUM
According to a News4Jax source, the Four Seasons proposal could be as high as a $100 million incentives request from the city:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/11/12/khan-wants-to-build-a-four-seasons-hotel-where-jacksonvilles-metro-park-currently-sits/
Also, any word on what happens to the Fire Museum in Metropolitan Park? It's not in Khan's latest plan. Is it being relocated or razed?
Is it symbolic that the Jags hopes for a Super Bowl - either in Jax, or them participating - "that ship has sailed"?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 10:50:25 PM
According to a News4Jax source, the Four Seasons proposal could be as high as a $100 million incentives request from the city:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/11/12/khan-wants-to-build-a-four-seasons-hotel-where-jacksonvilles-metro-park-currently-sits/
Also, any word on what happens to the Fire Museum in Metropolitan Park? It's not in Khan's latest plan. Is it being relocated or razed?
Could the memorabilia be included in the New MOSH? That doesn't save the historic building, though.
I'd argue the more separate attractions clustered together, the better. If it were moved to the Shipyards, it would actually be closer to its original Catherine Street location.
Agreed. Heck, it could even be put on Catherine Street - across Bay from the original location, but on the same street.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2020, 10:23:01 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on November 12, 2020, 05:28:59 PM
It looks like 2 cruise ships inverted to form a boomerang or "V."
The Jags have been in love with this ship-like design language since the first set of Shipyards renderings way back when.
Here's a video explaining the philosophy behind the design:
https://youtu.be/avaSdC0QOUM
No one else laughed at this, and I just want to say you deserved kudos.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 11:19:29 PM
I'd argue the more separate attractions clustered together, the better. If it were moved to the Shipyards, it would actually be closer to its original Catherine Street location.
Interesting to see how in just a few short months, the idea of a museum district of sorts wedged between whatever Berkman 2 becomes and the new Metro/Veterans Park (assuming NPS approval) has come together very quickly.
Between MOSH Genesis, the Orleck, the Fire Museum, and whether AquaJax ever figures things out, that seems like a pretty dense cultural space right there on Bay Street. And honestly, I welcome it.
If only City Hall was competent, it'd be nice to see some real nimble effort towards making something like this work. Start planning the new park, getting estimates down, some kind of "Museum District coming soon" campaign. If JTA had just proposed a normal Skyway replacement three years ago instead of this AV adventure, they probably could have been working on the Stadium expansion already, and a stop here could have been a great way to tie into that.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2020, 10:17:56 PM
Quote from: minder on November 12, 2020, 06:56:23 PM
Any word on timeframes or funding?
In terms of timing, Lamping claims that Shad Khan wants to break ground as soon as the legal hurdles with Met Park are cleared. He claimed that the Four Seasons could conceivably be starting at the same time as Lot J.
Bring on the continual downsizing and eventual groundbreaking of the Hampton Inn in 2027!
Its interesting to me that they officially now say it will be a Four Seasons. Up until now all presentations I have seen called this the "Luxury Hotel and Residences" no mention of four seasons. They must have come to an agreement with four seasons finally. Also, the medical center will mostly be for NFL uses. Not sure if it will be publicly available or not.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 13, 2020, 01:25:23 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 12, 2020, 10:23:01 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on November 12, 2020, 05:28:59 PM
It looks like 2 cruise ships inverted to form a boomerang or "V."
The Jags have been in love with this ship-like design language since the first set of Shipyards renderings way back when.
Here's a video explaining the philosophy behind the design:
https://youtu.be/avaSdC0QOUM
No one else laughed at this, and I just want to say you deserved kudos.
Thanks Marcus!
Appreciate you dude! 8)
So yesterday, the Daily Record was using the phrase "wants to build". Today, it is "project" and "plan". Words matter for PR purposes. Wonder if someone called the Daily Record to have it edited/changed.
I agree with minder, this time next year (or maybe in 2027 as he suggests), it'll be downsized and a Hampton Inn (not that there is anything wrong with Hampton Inn).
A shiny new Four Seasons Hotel between the jail and Talleyrand? What has Four Seasons said about this? Khan should buy the Omni.
At this point, Jacksonville will be lucky to get a Four Seasons....Total Landscaping.
I totally get the arguments against Lot J from a public incentives perspective, but I have a harder time wrapping my head around the continued narrative that the Jags aren't committed to Jacksonville. I totally respect the City Council for performing their due diligence in terms of viability, but there's something to be said for the fact that Shad Khan and Cordish have enough faith in the Jacksonville market to float and privately finance huge portions of things like the proposed Jacksonville Live! district and a Four Seasons/medical center at the Shipyards.
Who else is showing that same level of faith in our market?
Shad Khan has fielded a dreadful football team, and bungled a lot of communication in regards to things like the London game, but if I was the Jags, I'd be a little insulted by the "what's to stop Shad Khan from moving the team in 2029" talk from certain City Council members and the demands for a lease extension based on the Lot J project. Wayne Weaver trusted Shad Khan enough to sell him the franchise without a no-move clause. The penalty to break the lease and move the team to Los Angeles would have been a rounding error for the guy, and he would have made billions. I've got no issue exercising that same trust in the Jags, if we do move forward with any of these projects. NFL (and Jacksonville) precedent is to tie the lease extension to the stadium upgrades, which genuinely are needed for one of the NFL's oldest stadiums.
Do people really think that the Jags have an evil plan to pump $200 million into the first phase of Lot J, and $300 million into a Four Seasons, only to abandon the market in 8 years? That's a pretty shitty evil plan.
I also don't think it's reasonable to suggest that the Four Seasons thing is imagined by the Jags. Shad Khan has been ruffling hoteliers' feathers for years talking about how he wants to bring a luxury hotel to the riverfront, he owns a Four Seasons in Toronto, and he's been going back and forth with the DIA on it for years under the assumption it would be a Four Seasons. I don't think a guy who takes Edgewood Bakery to court over a few hundred thousand dollars is going to be dumping millions of dollars and years of life into Four Seasons renders just to trick the DIA into giving him a $12.5 million REV grant.
Nor does said gentleman seem the type to build a Four Seasons with the intention of flipping it and abandoning the market.
When we can't even get developers to commit to building mid-rise residential on the river, I'm not sure what developer or investor is going to swoop in and buy a Four Seasons Jacksonville anyway.
100% agree with getting the best deal we can as a city, or turning down the deal altogether if we don't feel it's the right investment, but it really is frustrating to see certain City Council members poisoning the well in terms of the discussion and making it more antagonistic then it needs to be with the baseless conspiracies about the Jags lack of commitment to the market.
Again though, all of this should be wrapped up in a single discussion, packaged with stadium upgrades, tied to a lease extension and a floor on home games in Jacksonville.
Quote from: MusicMan on November 13, 2020, 09:46:39 AM
A shiny new Four Seasons Hotel between the jail and Talleyrand? What has Four Seasons said about this? Khan should buy the Omni.
I would presume that their brand being on this likely means that they're okay with it, but of course I could be wrong. It's not about being between the jail and Talleyrand, it's about being across the street from the football stadium.
Why would Khan buy the Omni? That's in actual downtown, and if there's one thing he's been consistent about, it's that all he wants to build is within the vicinity of the stadium. This new plan is even pulling all the ideas closer to it.
^ Some good points. I think the issue in a lot of cases is less about whether he actively wants to leave and more about the sense of jerking around it feels like he's done. I can't speak for Council, but at least here some of the attitude has been about the sheer public cost of this, at a time when we're not investing in a lot of things we should, for something outside of what is traditionally considered downtown. Top that off with the London game(s) and people get on edge. I mentioned in another thread that we've probably already spent over $100m up to now, and wasted years of effort between Daily's Place, the Hart Ramps, the Landing, killing the Convention Center, and a litany of other projects. It's already been blasted on the news that Lot J is the most expensive public investment in a single project in our city's history. Curry's repeated dives into questionable behavior have probably also poisoned the well, and made it hard for people to trust that we're getting the best possible deal here.
Now, we're not trying to be some of the people on Facebook I've seen, waving white flags and saying Jacksonville will always be a podunk town that doesn't matter. But this is a hard bargain at a time like this, and it often feels like the Jags aren't being completely honest with us. One thing that's also come up is how we've offered no one else this much money. If we put out a big campaign saying, "we'll give you over $300m to build two hotels, some apartments, and some other stuff" I can't imagine we wouldn't get
some interest. Maybe a little less, because of the Convention Center/Ford on Bay debacles, but still.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 13, 2020, 11:41:32 AM
Again though, all of this should be wrapped up in a single discussion, packaged with stadium upgrades, tied to a lease extension and a floor on home games in Jacksonville.
Very true. I wonder if it'd be worth putting things on hold long enough to get the numbers for the stadium upgrades and actually make it a single referendum package. If we're going to spend over half a billion dollars, we should get to actually decide if we're going to spend that much.
Ken is 100% correct. Ankle biters should step back and look at the basic components of our situation. 1) there are no other offers, no other players, no one else with real skin in the game besides Khan. 2) As Lamping made clear, these historic interest rates are a gift from the gods which create the BEST POSSIBLE development environment we ever have seen, and ever will see. 3) Khan was right years ago when he explained the relative level of "mojo" in Jacksonville.
For small minded council members I would advise that they either lead, follow, or get out of the way. I'm hoping they choose #3.
There's a term in real estate (and other fields) called "deferred maintenance". It refers to items that should have been done 'already'.
Like a leaky roof, or 20 year old HVAC.... The downtown CBD has easily $200 million in deferred maintenance. So my objection is about putting $200 million into the stadium parking lot (effectively one city block) and turning the "deferred maintenance" that plagues Downtown Jacksonville into "permanently deferred maintenance." I don't see how, if the COJ commits all these resources to Lot J, any of the other long wish list of projects that have been proposed (from McCoys Creek restoration to developing any of the 'grass fields' we have) will ever get done.
Berkman II and San Marco Publix are 16 and 20 years in the making, and still folks are waiting.......
The realist in me says a few things:
1. This Four Seasons thing is so far off, at this point it's just as likely to happen as the convention center at Metropolitan Park that didn't. Don't let the nice renderings fool you. I said this years ago with Shipyards proposals before Khan and I said it with the first set Iguana came out with five years ago. I also said then that Lot J would not open before Curry's term is up. Part of this stuff deals with if there is (or isn't) a market for the product. The other side is that these things take time to materialize but what you see in a master development plan rarely comes to fruition at the end of the day. Especially in Jax from a historical perspective. At this point, I expect it to change again a year or two from now.
2. The proposed components of Lot J and Metropolitan Park won't cost as much to build as what has been reported in the news. Based on comparable recently built development in other cities, not even close, unless there's some serious waste going on. Everything still looks highly conceptual. From a design perspective, hopefully when they reach that point, they won't be exempt from DDRB review.
3. I really hate the narrative that there are no others willing to invest in DT Jax because its a false one. The reality is if we offered to cover +50% of any private development project's cost with public funds, we'd have a big increase in projects being proposed and built all throughout downtown. We just has a similar scenario play out with JWB and Vestcor in LaVilla a year ago. If we had a transparent and publicly supported long term vision, with the political will to fund it into fruition, we'd attract a lot more players than we can imagine today.
4. No NFL team is agreeing to a long term lease to get public funding for something as insignificant as what's in the components of Lot J. While we should definitely vet the incentives package and ensure we're getting the most bang for our buck, it's a big stretch to imagine any NFL team signing a long term lease because a Buffalo Wild Wings and a couple of hundred apartment units would be funded to be located next door to their stadium.
I truly believe that projects like this need to be analyzed into how they play into the larger vision (if we had one) of what we want the urban core to become. At this point, we're still too piecemealed in our approach to planning the area the DIA and COJ calls Downtown Jacksonville. It would be really interesting to see how what the Jags are proposing, aligns or doesn't align with the future of the Shipyards or A. Philip Randolph once again becoming a vibrant walking and attractive commercial district in the Eastside. Or how the Emerald Trail and adaptive reuse of the buildings in the Northbank add up into the picture. Or to have an honest discussion about the role, costs and constraints of the U2C to even support some of these dreams.
IMO, Jax should toss all these DT dreams into the mix (Lot J and Metropolitan Park included), figure out how much time and money it will cost to make them happen, if the market can even support this stuff, and then have a serious grown up discussion about what it takes to secure the funds to make the dreams a reality, sooner rather than two or three generations down the road.
Btw, we do have at least two mid-rise residentials project under construction on the river in downtown (Southbank and Brooklyn). The Southbank tower would have been taller but we fought it. So despite ourselves, we do have some stuff going on. Just imagine what it could be if all development barriers and obstacles were removed.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on November 12, 2020, 03:34:51 PM
Question:
Are there other examples of Four Seasons in similar areas of other cities? Ie, within easy walking distance of extreme blight & poverty?
This seems like it would be pursued well after Lot J is finished, and is being presented now as a carrot to get city council & public approval for Lot J incentives.
Great question Bill. I've been skeptical about the market feasibility of a Four Season since Khan first mentioned it and agree that it's a shrewd move to sway public opinion.
The only Four Seasons hotel locations in Florida are (Cheapest price of rooms in quotes):
-Palm Beach-A luxury alternative to Florida's most expensive hotel, The Breakers. Possibly Florida's second most expensive hotel. It's already booked up all winter at well over $1k a night and even spring dates are $1k a night.
-Orlando-A beautiful property close to Disney and other parks/attractions. ($700 a night)
-Miami Beach (Surf Club)-Famous historic hotel that now has one of America's best chef's (Thomas Keller) key restaurants ($720 a night)
-Miami-Brickell ($396 a night)
Four Seasons private residences in Florida:
-Ft. Lauderdale oceanfront
-Brickell-same location as hotel
-Surf Club Miami Beach-same location as hotel
-Orlando-same location as hotel
There's not even a Four Seasons in Naples or Sarasota, where there would be a significantly stronger market than Downtown Jacksonville. Nor is there one in Tampa, St. Pete, or 30A-also better markets/destinations. Downtown Jax has potential to be a cool place (especially for younger people), but it will NEVER be a luxury housing or hotel destination. Or is Khan intending to extract so much in incentives from Jax that he can offer Four Seasons amenities, dining, and accommodations at Marriott prices?
I've been a lobbyist on development projects for a billionaire and the world's largest private equity firm. With clients like that you have to be particularly sensitive with what you show the public, knowing that local politicians know you have tons of money to spend on projects and will extract countless concessions. We would never show anything to the public that we were not 100% committed to developing. If Khan is going to dangle a Four Seasons out there and show very attractive renderings as bait to push Lot J to the finish line,
the City should make him put his money where his mouth is and look at the incentive package together. If he isn't able to complete the Four Seasons in a certain time period, they should make him pay a portion of Lot J incentives back. Make him put cash or a surety bond in escrow until he completes the Four Seasons, and if he doesn't deliver the City gets some of it's Lot J money back.
I'm all for giving Khan reasonable incentives for viable projects, but at some point the City needs to get some backbone and get some concessions from Khan. It doesn't feel like Jax's leaders are negotiating on behalf of it's taxpayers interests right now...
Quote from: MusicMan on November 13, 2020, 01:27:08 PM
Berkman II and San Marco Publix are 16 and 20 years in the making, and still folks are waiting.......
Both of these projects are examples of things that would have been built over a decade ago if public funds covered their financing gaps.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 13, 2020, 11:41:32 AM
I totally get the arguments against Lot J from a public incentives perspective, but I have a harder time wrapping my head around the continued narrative that the Jags aren't committed to Jacksonville. I totally respect the City Council for performing their due diligence in terms of viability, but there's something to be said for the fact that Shad Khan and Cordish have enough faith in the Jacksonville market to float and privately finance huge portions of things like the proposed Jacksonville Live! district and a Four Seasons/medical center at the Shipyards.
Who else is showing that same level of faith in our market?
Shad Khan has fielded a dreadful football team, and bungled a lot of communication in regards to things like the London game, but if I was the Jags, I'd be a little insulted by the "what's to stop Shad Khan from moving the team in 2029" talk from certain City Council members and the demands for a lease extension based on the Lot J project. Wayne Weaver trusted Shad Khan enough to sell him the franchise without a no-move clause. The penalty to break the lease and move the team to Los Angeles would have been a rounding error for the guy, and he would have made billions. I've got no issue exercising that same trust in the Jags, if we do move forward with any of these projects. NFL (and Jacksonville) precedent is to tie the lease extension to the stadium upgrades, which genuinely are needed for one of the NFL's oldest stadiums.
Do people really think that the Jags have an evil plan to pump $200 million into the first phase of Lot J, and $300 million into a Four Seasons, only to abandon the market in 8 years? That's a pretty shitty evil plan.
I also don't think it's reasonable to suggest that the Four Seasons thing is imagined by the Jags. Shad Khan has been ruffling hoteliers' feathers for years talking about how he wants to bring a luxury hotel to the riverfront, he owns a Four Seasons in Toronto, and he's been going back and forth with the DIA on it for years under the assumption it would be a Four Seasons. I don't think a guy who takes Edgewood Bakery to court over a few hundred thousand dollars is going to be dumping millions of dollars and years of life into Four Seasons renders just to trick the DIA into giving him a $12.5 million REV grant.
Nor does said gentleman seem the type to build a Four Seasons with the intention of flipping it and abandoning the market.
When we can't even get developers to commit to building mid-rise residential on the river, I'm not sure what developer or investor is going to swoop in and buy a Four Seasons Jacksonville anyway.
100% agree with getting the best deal we can as a city, or turning down the deal altogether if we don't feel it's the right investment, but it really is frustrating to see certain City Council members poisoning the well in terms of the discussion and making it more antagonistic then it needs to be with the baseless conspiracies about the Jags lack of commitment to the market.
Again though, all of this should be wrapped up in a single discussion, packaged with stadium upgrades, tied to a lease extension and a floor on home games in Jacksonville.
Totally agree.
My main gripe with the Jags is the lack of communication at times behind their timelines and their plans, but its David Icke stuff to suggest its all a big conspiracy to bleed money from COJ/Duval County to then scuttle off to London or elsewhere.
I also don't understand the resentment that this killed off the Landing. The Landing was a barren shithole by the end anyway and the area around it has hardly benefitted from empty storefronts being filled up by the businesses that departed the Landing. This is far and away the cities best chance to build an entertainment district it will ever get in the heart of it.
A football stadium, a baseball stadium, an arena, an ampitheater, a fairground, a soccer stadium possibly within the next five years is a much much easier pull for the evening and weekend crowd than office workers.
Part of me feels that besides the obvious bargaining chip aspect, it's also about eventually landing a Super Bowl in Jax. After all, one of our biggest hurdles to that is the hotel situation coupled with a lack of things to do in the immediate vicinity of the stadium. That would be a huge boost to his ego should he pull that together, but also he'd rake in a small fortune with the businesses he stands to own in the area.
I don't actually have a problem with any of that. I just question whether this is a worthwhile investment considering the needs of our community, and I'm most angry at our local officials that just acquiesce to the Jags every request while failing to help people with greater need and failing to invest in more sensible, impactful projects for general citizens.
Quote from: minder on November 13, 2020, 02:55:02 PM
I also don't understand the resentment that this killed off the Landing. The Landing was a barren shithole by the end anyway and the area around it has hardly benefitted from empty storefronts being filled up by the businesses that departed the Landing.
My office is across the street from the Landing. The site is a barren shithole right now and has been for the last year. When in its final days, Coastal Cookies alone employed and attracted more people to the site and the surroundings on a regular day. Whether Lot J happens or not, we never should have spent $25 million to leave the Landing site where it is today.
QuoteThis is far and away the cities best chance to build an entertainment district it will ever get in the heart of it.
A football stadium, a baseball stadium, an arena, an ampitheater, a fairground, a soccer stadium possibly within the next five years is a much much easier pull for the evening and weekend crowd than office workers.
The Sports District will never be an entertainment district in the way that an Ybor City, French Quarter or Orange Avenue (Orlando) is. It doesn't have the authenticity, history or density. It will be its own thing (nothing wrong with this) and Downtown will have to continue to develop its own (perhaps the Elbow or a corridor like Adams/Hogan/Laura). Nothing wrong with either but it does point to planning where sub districts will need to complement each other in some sort of manner, considering they cater to different demographics.
For example, in the Eastside, assuming Lot J and the Armada soccer stadium materialize, the conversation is about how A. Philip Randolph Boulevard can build off increased traffic in the vicinity to revitalize as a walkable commercial district for those desiring the ultimate local Black experience, culture and history that our region has to offer. The chains at Lot J and events in the Sports District will attract the suburbanites, while those who desire a strip with good local bbq, soul food, garlic crabs, etc. APR can serve that marketplace, creating economic opportunity and jobs north of the expressway.
A 4 seasons would be pretty cool.
I'd be happy with most of this even if that doesn't materialize.
If we don't help make this happen, that polluted land may sit empty for another 50 years.
Seriously don't see a Four Seasons happening in Jax within the next decade. Khan did just donate $5 million to move MOSH to the Shipyards though.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2020, 10:47:09 AM
Seriously don't see a Four Seasons happening in Jax within the next decade. Khan did just donate $5 million to move MOSH to the Shipyards though.
I'll see your 10 years, and raise it to 15 years.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 13, 2020, 02:03:55 PM
From a design perspective, hopefully when they reach that point, they won't be exempt from DDRB review.
Carlucci's bill is going to try to strike the DIA and DDRB exemptions for the project and require that Lot J goes through the same approval processes as all other downtown projects.
The fact that those exemptions existed in the first place should be a serious insult to the city.
QuoteEditorial: Fascinating future possibilities for Shipyards
Florida Times-Union Editorial Board
The Downtown Investment Authority got an eye-full last week during presentations on the future of the Northbank at the Shipyards and Stadium District.
There were impressive renderings of an entertainment district at Lot J next to TIAA Bank Field, which would include offices, a hotel, living units and a parking garage.
Jaguars President Mark Lamping broke the news that Jaguars owner Shad Khan plans to bring a high-class Four Seasons hotel to the Shipyards area. Lamping made it clear the Four Seasons wouldn't come to Jacksonville without Khan's ownership.
The Museum of Science and History would use the empty space in the Shipyards to build an even more dramatic new center than its plans to renovate the current facility on the Southbank. Shad Khan and his family donated $5 million for the new facility.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/editorials/2020/11/16/editorial-fascinating-future-possibilities-shipyards-let-dia-evaluate-lot-j-plans/6302481002/
Hysterical... MOSH to The Shipyards. Is it a clean build site, YET?
Quote from: MusicMan on November 17, 2020, 08:48:56 AM
Hysterical... MOSH to The Shipyards. Is it a clean build site, YET?
They can have the kid's summer camps analyze the "stuff" in the soil. :D
The Times-Union got a breakdown of the proposed public/private split for Khan's Four Seasons plan that Mark Lamping presented to the DIA.
QuoteKhan's plan envisions two development phases on that riverfront site.
The first phase would have a Four Seasons Hotel with 177 rooms and a Four Seasons Residences with 20 to 30 residential units for sale. It also would have a 50,000 square foot medical building specializing in orthopedic treatment, a parking garage, a riverwalk, a promenade connecting the development to the Lot J site, and upgrades to the marina.
The documents show a total estimated cost of about $281 million for the first phase with the city's share at around $70 million. The city's portion of the cost includes a $25 million loan which when repaid would put the city's net cost at $45 million for phase one, the documents show.
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/11/18/jacksonville-four-seasons-hotel-development-shad-khan/6338084002/
What's the groundbreaking date or anticipated construction timeline? Juvember 2025, 2030 or 2050?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2020, 11:16:03 AM
What's the groundbreaking date or anticipated construction timeline? Juvember 2025, 2030 or 2050?
I'm morbidly fascinated by this whole Four Seasons thing.
Just thinking about it logically, there's clearly
no universe where Four Seasons would green light a hotel in the middle of a contaminated brownfield in downtown Jacksonville.
But on the other hand, it would be completely insane for Shad Khan to just make the whole thing up and create expensive, unauthorized renders of a Four Seasons hotel at Met Park as well. There's clearly a lot of thought behind this, with the medical component, promenade, and residences.
Neither scenario makes a whole lot of sense.
The second scenario makes sense, assuming a lot of things like Lot J, come to fruition and are successful beyond Jax's wildest dreams. The problem is, it could take decades for all the other things to fall in line. For example, Curry's second term is halfway over and we're still not done with the Coastline Drive/Liberty Street demolition and rebuilt. Something as simple and insignificant as that has taken more than half a decade.
I'll be frank, I wasn't aware of just how high-end Four Seasons was before reading through some recent posts and doing some more research. Obviously I've never stayed in one, but I figured it wasn't completely out of the question. Learning that this hotel chain has a private jet does give me more cause for alarm.
The one objection I'd maybe present is that arguably people would have said the same thing about the NFL green-lighting an expansion team in Jacksonville vs St. Louis or Baltimore. And yet, for whatever reason, they did.
^Was it? Where else was the NFL going to go? There are like 50 markets tops in the country that can support a professional sports franchise. A lot of factors from potential ownership team, community support, growth potential and number of existing franchises within these markets would significantly reduce the number of potential suitors left. I don't think it was totally crazy that Jax ended up with a team back then.
However, I also don't believe Four Seasons will be opening up any time soon either. Jax can't support it today but what Khan is trying to sell is a future where it can be supported, assuming many other things, including Lot J happens first. This is likely why timeline has largely been ignored or not seriously covered with this phase.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2020, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2020, 11:16:03 AM
What's the groundbreaking date or anticipated construction timeline? Juvember 2025, 2030 or 2050?
I'm morbidly fascinated by this whole Four Seasons thing.
Just thinking about it logically, there's clearly no universe where Four Seasons would green light a hotel in the middle of a contaminated brownfield in downtown Jacksonville.
But on the other hand, it would be completely insane for Shad Khan to just make the whole thing up and create expensive, unauthorized renders of a Four Seasons hotel at Met Park as well. There's clearly a lot of thought behind this, with the medical component, promenade, and residences.
Neither scenario makes a whole lot of sense.
All the Cordish developments seem to be centred around Loews Hotels, which I think is more within Jacksonville's league currently as a decent brand and also totally reasonable that we could support one. Like the post above, as much as I knew Four Seasons was a luxury brand, I couldn't believe just how expensive it is to stay there, and part of me hopes and reasonably expects they would price rooms accordingly in line with what the market would be willing to pay here. It also baffles me slightly that they want to add then not one but two hotels. One which is very nice and another which is just flat out luxury.
This leads me to believe Khan is swinging for the fences and eyeing another Superbowl IMO. That'll be his next bargaining chip if he faces more opposition from council members etc. "If we can add x amount of high end hotel rooms instead of having people staying on boats....". You know the drill.
QuoteThis leads me to believe Khan is swinging for the fences and eyeing another Superbowl IMO. That'll be his next bargaining chip if he faces more opposition from council members etc. "If we can add x amount of high end hotel rooms instead of having people staying on boats....". You know the drill.
^This would be the absolute worst reason to build the Four Seasons. We already built one hotel to get a Super Bowl, the Adams Mark (now the Hyatt). And soon after the SB, it went broke. The multi-million dollar lights put on the bridges were mostly inoperable within a few short years. The cruise ships left within days. What permanent mark other than that struggling hotel was left on Jax by having hosted a SB? Just memories, not the great long-term transformation of the City boosters promised.
Lessons learned from the amazing crowds at Bay Street (closed the street to host street vendors from the Main Street to the Sports Complex), Shipyards (hosted concerts and a large gathering place), JEA Southbank (now the District) property (hosted NFL Experience) and the Landing and turning the Main Street Bridge into a pedestrian-only pathway connecting both sides of the river? None!
It would be a fools errand to repeat the experience of spending hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars for a single, fleeting, event that will not impact the City like spending those same dollars on much needed long term investments across the entire community.
Per Paul Harden at the City Council meeting tonight:
In response to the local skepticism, the CEO of the Four Seasons corporation has personally provided a letter to the City of Jacksonville formally approving and supporting Shad Khan's plan to bring a Four Seasons to Jacksonville.
Solid flex by Khan.
If Loews comes to Jacksonville at all, I imagine that'd be the hotel at Lot J itself. Lamping has been insisting that Cordish doesn't actually have any role in the Shipyards, only Lot J.
I think there have been talks here about the likelihood of another Super Bowl bid at some point. Although at the pace they're taking with stadium talks I'd be surprised to see it before 2030. Like jaxlongtimer said, I can't help but question whether 3-400 hotel rooms really make the difference they seem to be looking for, considering last time they rushed to build 1000 rooms with the Hyatt in order to make their first bid work.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2020, 07:40:48 PM
Per Paul Harden at the City Council meeting tonight:
In response to the local skepticism, the CEO of the Four Seasons corporation has personally provided a letter to the City of Jacksonville formally approving and supporting Shad Khan's plan to bring a Four Seasons to Jacksonville.
Solid flex by Khan.
...seriously? That's... well, huh.
LOL, did the letter state when they'd be breaking ground? Did Khan actually show up to the Council meeting?
Nate Monroe (https://twitter.com/NateMonroeTU/status/1329586685852708864?s=20) is asking questions.
Four Seasons does not own or develop any of it's properties. They essentially have a franchise model. They would allow one to be built in Dubuque, Iowa if a developer offered them the right deal.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2020, 08:55:48 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 19, 2020, 08:05:40 PM
Nate Monroe (https://twitter.com/NateMonroeTU/status/1329586685852708864?s=20) is asking questions.
Big fan of Nate Monroe, but this is the type of stuff that I don't think is particularly constructive.
It's one thing to debate the feasibility of a Four Seasons hotel in downtown Jacksonville, but I'm not a fan of the insinuation that a guy worth $8 billion dollars who already owns a Four Seasons Hotel in Canada (and will soon own a second Canadian Four Seasons) is somehow either lying or being played for a fool by Four Seasons. It's needlessly personal.
Do I think there's a prayer that we see a Four Seasons at Met Park in the next 10 years? Personally, no.
Do I think that Shad Khan genuinely believes that he could bring a successful Four Seasons hotel to downtown Jacksonville?
I actually do, and I think there's something to be said for that.
Lost in all of this debate over what's fair for the public to pay and what's not fair is that the fact that Shad Khan continues to display that belief in the market and that willingness to make the Jags sustainable long-term in Jacksonville, despite his connections to more lucrative markets like London and Toronto.
And it still feels like he can't win with locals.
Donates $1 million to hurricane recovery efforts. Why isn't it $5 million?
Donates $1 million to local covid relief. Why isn't it $10 million?
Jags donate 50,000 masks to front line workers? It's a marketing ploy.
Gives $5 million to MOSH 2.0. Ulterior motives.
Moves a home game to London to boost local revenue and is very transparent about it? Moving the team to London.
Comes out in support of his players expressing their freedom of speech? He's anti-military.
Speaks out against the city privatizing JEA? No one notices.
Asks for public subsidies for Lot J? In bed with the mayor on the JEA sale.
Successful businessman with a massive corporation in Illionois and international business interests throughout the world. Why doesn't he live in Jacksonville?
Solicits a major developer to bring a huge mixed-use development to the sports complex? He's trying to line his own pockets.
Totally get any City Council member wanting to get the best deal possible for the city, but I honestly do think it's acting in bad faith to continually beat the "we have to be protected if the Jags leave the city" drum and discuss the Jags' departure like its a foregone conclusion when the dude really is trying to make it work. Ditto all these public comments with the language about he's a "Con/Khanman." Same carpetbagger shit that Wayne Weaver got back in the early 1990s when he was trying to bring a franchise here.
I think the Jax/Jags relationship can survive some pretty stringent but civil negotiations over any of these projects.
But it just feels like it's getting more and more personal with some of these Council members and locals.
All gets back to how nice it would have been to do things properly and in the daylight, as a package, tied a long-term lease extension and a minimum number of home games in Jacksonville.
I think most people aren't particularly inclined to feel a ton of sympathy for a billionaire. Cut that however you want, but there are people in this city sitting in lines for food, waiting for sewer lines they were promised generations ago, watching their children gunned down in the streets, while they're being asked to open their wallets for a football team. They're not going to give a damn about whether a man who owns a yacht worth nearly as much as all the taxpayer dollars being asked for has his feelings hurt.
That aside, the challenge you're always going to have with having that kind of money is that you didn't give more. There's a reason that famous "what if you win the lottery" post is out there. Especially with a deal like this, people are going to feel like they're getting put over a barrel if they don't ask for every cent they can. The behavior around the JEA headquarters and the subsequent sale attempts certainly didn't help matters, and Curry's behavior has been seriously detrimental to making this work. On top of that, remember all the ancillary costs we are looking at from this project. The Convention Center, the Landing, the Hart ramps, moving Metro Park. It's bigger than just Lot J or the Shipyards themselves, and on top of
that we're still looking at the biggest subsidies in our history. It's worth noting that chances are, the people complaining about subsidies or privatizing JEA or the mask donations
probably aren't the same people complaining about "anti-military" stuff. It's a big city, and as this recent election proves, a divided city.
Again, I think a lot of this also comes back to Curry's behavior and how the backlash to some of it is landing on this thing that is suspiciously close to Curry. And I absolutely agree, at the end of the day some outright, simple transparency and honesty about what this project was would have been the best thing for everyone. Now that we know more about the issues with remediation, that brings me to a somewhat different idea (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35949.msg507042.html#msg507042) on how to make things work from here.
Crazy to think that a lot of the bad feelings between the city, the citizenry, and the Jaguars over Lot J could be ameliorated if the Jaguars just won more games...
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 22, 2020, 01:35:36 AM
Now that we know more about the issues with remediation, that brings me to a somewhat different idea (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35949.msg507042.html#msg507042) on how to make things work from here.
To me, the most logical thing is to just all cooperate towards a common goal.
With all of Jacksonville's issues downtown right now, putting all of our eggs into remediating the Shipyards area seems akin to the Jags using a first round pick on a punter when Trevor Lawrence is on the board.
In a fantasy world, this would be my plan:
Get the mayor's office, the Jags, Cordish, and the DIA all in one room.
1) Offer the Jags the full Landing property for Jacksonville Live! component of their project.
2) The Jags are requesting a $12.5 million completion grant for the Lot J Lowe's hotel. Offer them the same $12.5 million in cash toward the purchase and conversion of the Omni, which is going on the market.
3) With the Spandrel deal floundering, offer the Jags the Ford on Bay property free of cost for the residential and retail components of the Lot J proposal. We were going to have to heavily subsidize the property already.
4) Agree to work out a deal with the Hyatt to help them/Jacobs kickstart a market appropriate convention center to feed into Live!
5) Agree to run shuttles or buses or a Jags-themed trolly or water taxi or whatever from Live! down Bay Street to the sports complex on all game days and concert days so you've got that same synergy they're looking for.
6) Identify other city owned or blighted property that we can work with the Jags on for future expansion.
Feels like everyone wins in this scenario.
The Jags get better property, in an area with the density and population base necessary to make them viable. They can charge higher rents for the riverfront residential. They can take advantage of the existing downtown worker and residential base to keep the bars and restaurants filled. And this would actually be much closer to the Kansas City Cordish model.
The downtown core and existing businesses in the CBD win, for all of the clustering of complimentary uses in a compact pedestrian setting reasons we've been hearing for 15 years here.
The taxpayers get a better deal than what's currently proposed, as even if we still end up spending $200 million, we've got more of that money working toward tangible, strategic uses instead of dumping debt into filling in retention ponds, remediating and moving functional parking lots, and spending half a billion dollars moving a prison just to set the scene for a future convention center.
There's no reason the Met Park and Shipyards stuff can't work itself out down the line, but the above is logical, immediate, and mutually beneficial for all parties, while what's currently proposed might take a decade to come to fruition and exists in a vacuum.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Jag's shift their investments to these Northbank properties but it seems like their entire proposal is for the purpose of having these uses around the stadium itself. Are there any examples of sports teams making these investments in other areas of their respective host cities, as opposed to being adjacent to the sports facility?
^ Right, having these projects exist in a vacuum seems to be the point. Specifically, that the vacuum exists around the stadium.
I'm not saying I disagree with your project in principle Ken, it's just that we don't seem to be in a position to offer them all of that, and it's not clear that they'd actually want it. What I'm suggesting is intended for moving forward from where we are now. The hardest part would be (or at least should be) convincing the Jags to cut back to just remediation for now and get their house in order before making a bid to the public when people (hopefully) hate them less.
Convincing them to buy properties rather far from what they actually want to build, with the promise of transportation that works well enough to connect them to the stadium seems substantially steeper of a challenge.
As I said, I think it makes more sense with what we know now to
QuoteCut the current deal down to getting remediation done. But as much of it as possible. Lot J, the Shipyards, whatever in that area needs it. If that means $100m spent, then do it. Hopefully get started by early 2021 to finish in late '23/early '24.
The Jaguars need to spend the next two years getting their house in order, on and off the field. Actually have some real blueprints for Lot J and the Shipyards, and figure out exactly what they want from taxpayers for Stadium renovations. Ideally, the city is taking this time to get the NPS to agree to moving Metro Park, and finding the money to build the new park + museum district. Hopefully, the end result is something lovely and iconic, but at least something decent.
After a DIA review, and Council review (optional), put a referendum on the ballot, either in November 2022 or March 2023 for the combined cost of building the developments + stadium and a 30-year lease extension. Make the stakes clear, that this is about whether we want the Jags or we don't. It's going to be a gigantic number, but at least we know what that number is, and can make one yes or no decision as a city. If we say yes, contracts sign, vertical construction starts a few months later. If we say no, then I guess the next mayor could master plan the area or just offer up the parcels to whoever is willing to buy and build themselves. At that point either the Jags figure out something else or start looking for somewhere else to go.
If we say no, all we are out is the cost of remediation, the museums + parks (which one
could argue we would have done anyway), and the ancillary costs of the Hart Ramps & Convention Center debacle. We can recoup some of those costs with selling the parcels and the resulting property taxes. Taking this path right now is a matter of convincing the Jags to do things they were supposed to do anyway, with something that needed to get done anyway. Versus having to essentially abandon their plans in favor of something different in places they clearly didn't want.
Ken_FSU, there is no way the Jags/Khan go for any of that.
Okay everyone, I was in the shower and I had an idea that is either really great or absolutely terrible. Time to see why I'm a Political Science major and not an Advertising major.
We've talked all about how Lot J is a dumb name, and let's be frank, no one wants to think about "the Shipyards" anymore, they're a sign of an old, beleaguered city, not a
prosperous one with an NFL team! So I had an idea.
The center of the development is called Lot
J. J stands for
Jaguars. Jaguars live in the
Jungle. This development, plus the stuff at the Shipyards, is on either side of
Bay Street.
Imagine a day in fall of 2027. You're driving down Bay Street from Downtown (because no one takes the YewTooSea since it always gets stuck and causes traffic).
You pass the Museum District and the Metro/Veterans/Whatever Park, and as you round the bend of the Hart Bridge ramps approaching street level, you see the sign. This
monolith to your right, with huge letters welcoming you to this new neighborhood.
You come out from behind the ramps and
bam! Custom wayfinding signage and fancy flags on lightpoles.
On your right, Parkside Residences at Jungle Bay, followed by Jungle Bay Medical and, you guessed it,
Four Seasons Jungle Bay.
On your left, the future site of whatever corporation decides to move here, followed by the Residences at Jungle Bay, Loews Hotel and of course, Duval Live!
You then pass TIAA Bank Field with its lovely new partial roof on the left and the riverfront offices of whatever other companies on the right, before you abscond to the Hart Bridge because you were just passing through.
But think of the
name! It's exotic, it's sexy, it's not "The District" or "Healthy Town" or Lot J!
How about that?
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/c4b5979b1ce05f7c9279c18956bf1c70/tenor.gif?itemid=12753368)
That's pretty dang good, especially from a guy who quotes Ed Markey ;D
The Jungle will need a Roller Coaster, Carousel, and a nice Midway.
This is how I imagine the Steelers felt about the Jaguars rolling into the Jungle yesterday.
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.qCfFPLOFw_wHqrjrp7WYTAHaFj?pid=Api&rs=1)
Is there yet another meeting tomorrow? Sure I read in the daily record there was one scheduled.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 22, 2020, 01:23:04 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing the Jag's shift their investments to these Northbank properties but it seems like their entire proposal is for the purpose of having these uses around the stadium itself. Are there any examples of sports teams making these investments in other areas of their respective host cities, as opposed to being adjacent to the sports facility?
Quote from: vicupstate on November 22, 2020, 06:44:10 PM
Ken_FSU, there is no way the Jags/Khan go for any of that.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 22, 2020, 04:49:11 PM
^ Right, having these projects exist in a vacuum seems to be the point. Specifically, that the vacuum exists around the stadium.
I'm not saying I disagree with your project in principle Ken, it's just that we don't seem to be in a position to offer them all of that, and it's not clear that they'd actually want it.
I do think we tend to forget that the Jaguars' initial preference was never to develop all of this stuff in the stadium parking lot. The switch to the Lot J plan was completely predicated on the city's inability to get its shit together on remediating the Shipyards, as well as the $35 million remediation estimate stalling all Shipyards talks because of the the pension crisis. The Jags original plan was to develop much further away from the stadium, beginning at Berkman II and working their way toward the stadium in subsequent phases. So I don't think they're as married to the idea that the development
has to be in the stadium parking lot as people perhaps think they are. I think it was just what was available when the Shipyards talks fizzled.
(https://snipboard.io/9N4zkT.jpg)
Like I mentioned in the original post, just talking pure best-case fantasy for all parties involved. And from a Cordish perspective, going the Northbank infill/rehab route is actually much closer to the Kansas City model than building everything in isolation at the sports complex. Though the Power & Light district is near the Sprint Center arena in Kansas City, the arena has no major sports tenant, and I think people forget that KC's actual sports complex (where the Chiefs and Royals play) is more than 10 miles away from Power & Light.
Other reasons that I don't think it'd be that crazy to at least float the idea of the Jags/Cordish developing these parcels:
1) The Jags have indirectly expressed interest on the Ford on Bay property in the past. There were rumors of the Jags putting in a bid for the convention center RFP, and they also worked with Rimrock Devlin on the residential/hotel concept for the property as well. I take everything having to do with that convention center RFP with a grain of salt though, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Jags floated their convention center at the Shipyards less with the intent to build it, and more with the intent of railroading the Courthouse RFP and making sure that the city didn't spend $700 million on a convention center at the expense of their own developments.
2) Cordish really liked the Landing property. They redeveloped a similar festival marketplace in Norfolk, and were tracking the Landing before partnering with the Jags further down by the stadium. They might have been a good partner on the Landing had we not torn it down without exploring redevelopment. From Cordish's own social channel, here's Zed Smith (COO of Cordish who has been at all the City Hall meetings related to Lot J) discussing the property: https://youtu.be/90KAu9zv72c?t=140
Quote from: landfall on November 23, 2020, 03:09:21 PM
Is there yet another meeting tomorrow? Sure I read in the daily record there was one scheduled.
Nope. There are yet another TWO meetings tomorrow on Lot J.
(https://snipboard.io/ECcmkJ.jpg)
Meetings about meetings!
The Shipyards are still largely in the vicinity of the stadium. They've only grown closer to it since they began this journey. And it's worth pointing out how... ambiguous those early renderings are.
At the end of the day, Cordish is partnering with the Jags on this project. If they'd partnered with the Chiefs or Royals on P&L, I would expect it to be closer to where they play.
You already tossed the Ford on Bay, so I don't have anything to add there. In terms of the Landing, it's been discussed how that appears to be a victim of both Curry's attitude and the Jags' aspirations to do much of the same at Lot J. At the end of the day, Cordish has hitched their wagon to the Jags here, for better or worse.
That aside, after some thought, I do maintain that Jungle Bay sounds like a pretty cool name for these developments. Four Seasons Jungle Bay sounds way more interesting than Four Seasons Jacksonville. Although I guess it'd be Four Seasons Jacksonville Jungle Bay, but still. A real shame Hazouri has apparently decided to get through Lot J before looking for answers on everything else.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 23, 2020, 08:17:29 PMThat aside, after some thought, I do maintain that Jungle Bay sounds like a pretty cool name for these developments. Four Seasons Jungle Bay sounds way more interesting than Four Seasons Jacksonville. Although I guess it'd be Four Seasons Jacksonville Jungle Bay, but still. A real shame Hazouri has apparently decided to get through Lot J before looking for answers on everything else.
Super catchy name, and I think the city and the Jags are facing an uphill battle trying to sell any mixed-use entertainment complex to the public when they keep calling it "Lot J," but let me counter.
In terms of brand and consumer preference studies, one thing really stands out as being increasingly important to consumers as the years go by:
Authenticity.
Jungle Bay is a great name, but it's not authentic (we have neither jungles nor bays) and runs counter to our marketing of the amazing natural resources we do have (namely the St. Johns River and the Atlantic Ocean).
In my humble opinion, the best name for the entire proposed development area between Berkman II and the Sports Complex is also the most obvious one that's staring us in the face:
The Jacksonville Shipyards.
For a city that devalues its history at every turn, the Shipyards is as authentic as Fisherman's Wharf, or the Inner Harbor, or the French Quarter.
Some BEAUTIFUL photos here showing off the area's history:
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-lost-jacksonville-the-jacksonville-shipyards
Jacksonville Live! at the Shipyards.
Four Season at the Jacksonville Shipyards.
Veterans Park at the Shipyards.
The USS Orleck (a literal ship) at the Jacksonville Shipyards.
MOSH Genesis at the Jacksonville Shipyards.
Doesn't reinvent the wheel, but it ties all of the proposed development together under one, cohesive, authentic brand.
As unrealistic as the first Shipyards proposal was, I still think Populous absolutely nailed the branding and design language.
https://vimeo.com/117124762
(https://snipboard.io/4hK687.jpg)
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 23, 2020, 10:01:49 PM
Super catchy name, and I think the city and the Jags are facing an uphill battle trying to sell any mixed-use entertainment complex to the public when they keep calling it "Lot J," but let me counter.
Right? Although it's been said that perhaps the bigger challenge is selling an expensive (for the public) mixed-use entertainment complex as one of the worst-performing teams in the league. I don't remember who said it, but "this would have been a very different conversation in 2017" is absolutely a great point.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 23, 2020, 10:01:49 PMIn terms of brand and consumer preference studies, one thing really stands out as being increasingly important to consumers as the years go by:
Authenticity.
Jungle Bay is a great name, but it's not authentic (we have neither jungles nor bays) and runs counter to our marketing of the amazing natural resources we do have (namely the St. Johns River and the Atlantic Ocean).
In my humble opinion, the best name for the entire proposed development area between Berkman II and the Sports Complex is also the most obvious one that's staring us in the face:
The Jacksonville Shipyards.
For a city that devalues its history at every turn, the Shipyards is as authentic as Fisherman's Wharf, or the Inner Harbor, or the French Quarter.
I mean... yeah. I was only half-serious about
Quotelet's be frank, no one wants to think about "the Shipyards" anymore, they're a sign of an old, beleaguered city, not a prosperous one with an NFL team!
When it's the NFL team's owner calling it the Shipyards. The only thing I'd point out is that we've heard "this is it, we're going to build at the Shipyards" for coming on twenty years now, and I don't know the brand power of the name at this point. Jungle Bay has an advantage in terms of spontaneity, as well as the (admittedly weak) references to both the Jaguars and Bay Street. Also, Lot J being across Bay Street makes that perhaps a little more challenging to call part of "the Shipyards." I think Khan recognizes this, which is why Lot J is still being called "Lot J." Speaking of which, should we capitalize The? As in, The Shipyards?
Edit: Also,
oof at looking through that article to find
Quote2009 - Mayor John Peyton announces his intention to decide on a plan for the site's future before he leaves office in 2011.