Quote
The Museum of Science and History, best known simply as MOSH, might relocate from its longstanding location on downtown's Southbank, leaders of the Downtown Investment Authority leaders said Wednesday.
MOSH launched an $80 million fund-raising campaign in March 2019 to renovate and expand its 50-year-old campus near Friendship Fountain. But another option that's been evaluated by MOSH would be to build the museum at a different downtown spot.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/10/14/mosh-considers-moving-museum-jacksonvilles-southbank/3652710001/
If the new site for MOSH was next to the USS Orleck and Berkman Plaza, would anyone here be for the move or against it?
Considering that the city owns the land, I'd rather MOSH stay where they are as that's a decent use for the space and ties in well to the fountain. If MOSH leaves, I expect that site to sit vacant for years.
I would rather MOSH move somewhere close to JWJ Park if they were to cross the river, but if the Orleck happens that could be a good synergy of uses. Around there is also the jail and the coffee plant which are very unfriendly to pedestrians/kids.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 15, 2020, 09:47:08 AM
Considering that the city owns the land, I'd rather MOSH stay where they are as that's a decent use for the space and ties in well to the fountain. If MOSH leaves, I expect that site to sit vacant for years.
Maybe they could put more apartments there.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 09:36:23 AM
If the new site for MOSH was next to the USS Orleck and Berkman Plaza, would anyone here be for the move or against it?
I'd have to think hard about it, but my first reaction is I wish they'd stay based on what I know today. On a positive note there's the concept around the Orleck, a potential Naval Museum, potential park space, as well as a few other ideas that have been thrown around like a maritime museum (we used to have one of them, remember).
That's a lot of "concept" and "potential" for my taste. The plans for that area of the Northbank are too in flux in my eyes. MOSH isn't a concept or potential. It's been around for a very long time and is very well established. I get why some people may have gotten in MOSH's ear - it's one of the few true destinations downtown that is a truly regional draw for people, and if you're associated with any of the other concepts, of course it would be nice for MOSH to be right next door.
I think I get the idea - use the COJ parking lot at Bay and Marsh, and do some sort of structured parking there. That could support a ton of uses across Bay Street. If Berkman II were to be redeveloped into something that had anything other than a loading dock at ground level (i.e. Berkman I) it could connect. Longer term we know the Jail and Police building will likely be relocated, and maybe one day COJ can entice Maxwell House into setting up tours and doing a Coffee Shop.
All of that sounds amazing. Most of that is also crayons on a cocktail napkin, and no idea how to fund that (moving the jail and Police building) is likely $300M+.
Doesn't all of that land need remediation? Who pays for that?
It seems the Shipyard site would be more prone to flooding than the current site. If they do move, the first floor should either be elevated about the flood plain (based on new climate change models, not old maps).
The Shipyards site will be inaccesssible when there is a game or major event, due to traffic.
I guess you can count me as "against" the move.
To me, it's hard to be too firmly pro or too firmly anti in the absence of any type of master plan from the city.
My knee-jerk is to be totally anti, as the Museum/Fountain/St. Johns Park/Glass & Vine restaurant seems to be a good example of the clustering complementing uses within a compact, pedestrian friendly setting idea that Lake always champions.
If you remove the foot traffic from the museum, I think you're undermining the city's investments in Friendship Fountain/St. Johns Park and negatively effecting the viability of the restaurant that the city pushed for and is ultimately subsidizing.
To be pro, you need to make a lot of assumptions.
- Would it complement a Naval Museum? Sure, but how long have we been hearing about a Naval Museum being docked at the Shipyards? A decade?
- Would it be a good use of the Shipyards and complement the new Metro Park? Sure, but how long has that land been contaminated without any effort to make it suitable for use? Where's the money coming from to remediate for commercial use?
- Would it complement the new Berkman II plan? Same. How long have been hearing about Berkman 2 plans.
Northbank might work, if a complicated, expensive series of decade or decades delayed projects actually come together - an idea our history doesn't particularly support - but the Southbank is the proverbial "bird in the hand." They have the property. They've got the plan. Friendship Fountain/St. Johns park is funded. Related Group's development looks like it's going to happen. It's a lovely pedestrian stroll from the CBD.
I'm going anti.
UNLESS we're guaranteed an equally compelling use for the old MOSH facilities on the Southbank. Repurpose it as a Southern Rock Hall of Fame/Museum with concert space and events (I think they were already doing Southern Rock planetarium shows), for example, and I think it's an easier sell.
It would be sad to lose MOSH, because not only was that a good field trip, but if they go, how long before the fountain does? Even if they reno it, there would be a different demographic with another half-empty apartment building as the 'destination' surrounding it. Very sad. That used to be prime School Field Trip real estate - we usually ended up at Friendship Park (circa mid 1960s - early 1970s) to eat our lunches outside, go climb the turret to view the fountain pump, then go walk around the fountain which would be turned on full blast. Of course we'd throw pennies in and make wishes before we had to board the bus and return to school. (I usually wished I was inside that nice cool water instead of standing there broiling...) I ate many a deviled egg sammie and potato chips by the river. https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/mosh-weighs-relocating-museum-from-its-southbank-site-in-downtown-jacksonville/ar-BB1a3PWZ?ocid=msedgntp
Quote from: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 09:36:23 AM
If the new site for MOSH was next to the USS Orleck and Berkman Plaza, would anyone here be for the move or against it?
opposed. As this site has shown for years, clustering is huge. Fact is, even without The Landing, the core of downtown is Laura Street. MOSH is just across the river...an easy stroll across the bridge or a quick water taxi ride.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on October 15, 2020, 12:00:52 PM
To me, it's hard to be too firmly pro or too firmly anti in the absence of any type of master plan from the city.
Exactly my issue - I don't believer we'll see one anytime soon. Without it, I'd say no - MOSH should stay where it is.
Quote from: sandyshoes on October 15, 2020, 12:18:17 PM
It would be sad to lose MOSH, because not only was that a good field trip, but if they go, how long before the fountain does? Even if they reno it, there would be a different demographic with another half-empty apartment building as the 'destination' surrounding it. Very sad. That used to be prime School Field Trip real estate - we usually ended up at Friendship Park (circa mid 1960s - early 1970s) to eat our lunches outside, go climb the turret to view the fountain pump, then go walk around the fountain which would be turned on full blast. Of course we'd throw pennies in and make wishes before we had to board the bus and return to school. (I usually wished I was inside that nice cool water instead of standing there broiling...) I ate many a deviled egg sammie and potato chips by the river. https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/mosh-weighs-relocating-museum-from-its-southbank-site-in-downtown-jacksonville/ar-BB1a3PWZ?ocid=msedgntp
In fairness, the apartments really wouldn't (in my eyes) make a difference on the experience you bring up about MOSH. I had that experience too when I was in school.
Quote from: Steve on October 15, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on October 15, 2020, 12:00:52 PM
To me, it's hard to be too firmly pro or too firmly anti in the absence of any type of master plan from the city.
Exactly my issue - I don't believer we'll see one anytime soon. Without it, I'd say no - MOSH should stay where it is.
It is pretty evident how it is clear it is to why we really need a downtown master plan. The future of sites/places like MOSH, a convention center, JWJ Park, etc. are exactly what would be included, transparent and clear within a good plan.
This has me reminiscing on how Rouse's original plan for the Northbank involved relocation of museums and development of an aquarium to complement the Landing.
Yeah, Ken and Charles are on the right track, I think. If there was a really solid, ready to go, money's there master plan for say, moving MOSH to the Northbank next to the Orleck (which is ready to go) after remediation and the new Shipyards park, with maybe room for the JaxAqua proposal (which is also somehow ready to go) and that new Berkman proposal was somehow feasible and also ready to go, and there was a serious plan for what to do with the original MOSH site, then maybe it'd be comfortable. But the risk of supporting a box in a field with no real plan that ultimately doesn't complement anything else seems pretty serious.
Wait...
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/duval-county/mosh-announces-plans-new-museum-shipyards/TCV5FYBNEVHJBII4NWDN7SL7MY/
This sounds a lot more serious than "weighing relocation".
Well that escalated quickly.
Maybe there's some super developed plan that nobody has seen. I'll stand by for it.
Could MOSH re-brand the Shipyards soil remediation project as kind of a curated, live science exhibit thus making it available for federal scientific/educational grants? Perhaps for an extra fee, visitors could get their own hard hat and hazmat suit and help dig for compacted sludge.
I grew up going to summer camps and sleepovers at MOSH and it holds a special place for me, but when I go there as an adult, it's depressing and dated. With the amount of money they are looking at spending, it's probably easier to start fresh at the Shipyards site than it is to completely repurpose the existing site. I think a new site provides a lot more opportunity to create special views and outdoor/event spaces along the waterfront. Not to mention better opportunities for ecotourism and celebrating the St. Johns. You could run kayak trips up Hogan's Creek and have interactive waterfront aquarium type exhibits. I've been saying for years that there is ZERO market/need for a large-scale standalone aquarium, but that there is a great opportunity to incorporate elements of an aquarium into MOSH. In fact, many science museums have an aquarium type component mixed in.
Moving MOSH to the Northbank gives Jax a chance to truly create something special. IF Lot J and some of the other planned projects on the Northbank happen, the City might have enough synergy and connectivity to start filling in the gaps and creating some vibrancy.
Interesting. Wasn't expecting that announcement to come so quick. Now that it's out, what should be done with a existing MOSH building?
Repurpose for a new museum/attraction, blow it up and expand the park or blow it up for infill development?
Quote from: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 01:46:36 PM
Interesting. Wasn't expecting that announcement to come so quick. Now that it's out, what should be done with a existing MOSH building?
Repurpose for a new museum/attraction, blow it up and expand the park or blow it up for infill development?
This just in from the Mayor's Office: Blow it up and leave the rubble enclosed by a chain-link fence for 13 years, then begin a 2-year process to name a Special Committee to study potential uses for the site.
Quote"The presentation of a new site option at the Shipyards property provides an exciting opportunity to reconsider how we will serve Northeast Florida's citizens and visitors in the years ahead," said Fafard.
The construction could begin in 2021, pending approval from the City of Jacksonville Capital Improvement Plan.
The funds for the new museum will come from the MOSH 2.0 capital campaign.
"The next iteration of MOSH will serve as a transformative center for science, innovation and humanities in Downtown. We welcome the support of businesses, philanthropists and foundations that share our passion for activating the riverfront, inspiring innovation, supporting critical workforce development and driving tourism to Downtown Jacksonville," said Jill Davis, Chair of the MOSH 2.0 campaign cabinet.
MOSH wants to continue to build the momentum in downtown from the Northbank plans that has been growing during the Curry administration.
"For nearly 80 years, MOSH has inspired Jacksonville citizens of all ages to embrace the joy of lifelong learning. We applaud the Museum's leaders for their commitment to Downtown and their bold, innovative vision for the future that will inspire generations and strengthen our reputation as a premier destination in the Southeastern United States," said Lenny Curry, Mayor of the City of Jacksonville.
I'm not friendly with MOSH leadership, so I don't want to jump to conclusions, but the above paragraph sure makes this sound like a Hail Mary from the Mayor's office to fulfill it's promise of transforming the stretch of the Northbank between Berkman II and Met Park.
Is there money for MOSH in the current CIP?
If this is happening, it would be a fantastic goodwill gesture from the Jags to throw in some serious cash.
How easy would it be for Shad Khan to write a check for $10 million and present it to the MOSH to reinforce all that talk about how he's committed to the community and what's good for downtown is good for the Jags. I mean, if VyStar can throw in $2.5 million without a second thought...
I'm hoping this is part of a strategic plan for the area and not just a random move with a lonely building in the middle of the shipyards. I'm sure we'll get some details. Surprised there was little or no community input (none made public, at least).
Quote from: Ken_FSU on October 15, 2020, 02:08:50 PM
I'm not friendly with MOSH leadership, so I don't want to jump to conclusions, but the above paragraph sure makes this sound like a Hail Mary from the Mayor's office to fulfill it's promise of transforming the stretch of the Northbank between Berkman II and Met Park.
Is there money for MOSH in the current CIP?
I believe there's $20 million in the CIP for a Northbank attraction. I assume its for MOSH.
There could be some good synergy created with the USS Orleck and the proposed relocation of Metropolitan Park. You're looking at a space that will be well above $100 million in construction costs though. A big conversation needs to take place with the future of the current MOSH space and the park next door. IMO, it would make sense to halt Friendship Fountain renovation until we figure out the future of the existing MOSH building.
Quote from: Papa33 on October 15, 2020, 02:11:57 PM
I'm hoping this is part of a strategic plan for the area and not just a random move with a lonely building in the middle of the shipyards.
Get ready to be disappointed, then.
But seriously, it sure would be nice to actually see a master plan for what exactly is supposed to happen. I guess we're not supposed to expect that under Curry, but still...
Quote from: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 02:54:04 PM
There could be some good synergy created with the USS Orleck and the proposed relocation of Metropolitan Park. You're looking at a space that will be well above $100 million in construction costs though. A big conversation needs to take place with the future of the current MOSH space and the park next door. IMO, it would make sense to halt Friendship Fountain renovation until we figure out the future of the existing MOSH building.
The takeaway here is that we're likely going to spend $100m+ anyway, so we should actually really take a moment to think about how this should be done, and do it right. I hate the word "game changer," but this is one of those moments where you can lay the groundwork for something truly iconic and foundational if you take even a second to have a real plan. It might not be St. Petersburg, or Lakeland, but it could be something cool.
But, alas... Jacksonville.
Just for future consideration if they do reno the fountain, it might be nice to have the splash park nearby, like they had in the middle of The Landing, and I think there was also one at old Metro Park. And some of those mist-cooled areas, like they had/have at the Zoo. They could build an additional, smaller 'waterworks' type building for maintenance, and maybe have a little oasis type place where you could get snow cones or fountain drinks.
Quote from: sandyshoes on October 15, 2020, 03:32:36 PM
Just for future consideration if they do reno the fountain, it might be nice to have the splash park nearby, like they had in the middle of The Landing, and I think there was also one at old Metro Park. And some of those mist-cooled areas, like they had/have at the Zoo. They could build an additional, smaller 'waterworks' type building for maintenance, and maybe have a little oasis type place where you could get snow cones or fountain drinks.
I think you'll like the new design, if built.
It incorporates a lot of these features.
Planetarium?
I hope MOSH is able to expand their exhibit offerings as well as expand the history component (including the local and neglected stories) of the museum by relocating. I also hope the building is somewhat architecturally stunning, as opposed to a value-engineered glass box.
Personally, I think MOSH gets better synergy being on the Northbank near other attractions but considering their current neighbor is being upgraded now; this seems suspiciously timed as if someone/something else is already in mind for the MOSH site.
If only the city had a single, unified plan. Searching COJ Downtown Master plan yields like 5 different agencies plans. Also the timing of these things seem to happen too piecemeal to really build off one and other.
I guess technically the DIA could be considered a master downtown plan. https://downtownjacksonville.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/CRA-Plans.pdf (https://downtownjacksonville.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/CRA-Plans.pdf) But that has MOSH as part of integrating with Friendship Fountain. So we aren't following that.
They call the CRA plan the master plan but if it is, it's a bad one. That thing doesn't identify a site and implemention schedule for things that will drive private sector development like a convention center or revamp of JWJ Park. It also fails to identify visionary planning elements like streets that should be retail vs others that should be service. It also lacks a vision for an area like Ashley and Broad in LaVilla. It creates more questions about downtown's future than it resolves, IMO.
WOW. I was going to say leave it on the Southbank, and if they did move, how about the empty Landing property; but...this just eradicates everything else; hope it works out.
More deets from the JBJ.
Full article: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/10/15/mosh-shipyards-future-uncertain.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_28&cx_artPos=0#cxrecs_s
QuoteMOSH on the Shipyards
While specifics were slim – Fafard said the project is in its earliest stages and renderings haven't been completed – he said preliminary plans for the project include an approximately 129,000-square-foot, three-story building across a four-acre parcel of the approximately 30-acre Shipyards property.
The MOSH 2.0 redesign anticipated expanding the existing facility from 77,000 square feet to 120,000.
"The larger footprint would not only allow us to bring in larger traveling exhibits, but also allow us to expand on some of our permanent exhibits," Fafard said. "We're constrained by the footprint that's available to us – so we need a slightly larger footprint and kind of a blank canvas. We get to really sort of reimagine what the experience would be like for the community and for visitors."
He added that the larger property would provide opportunity for outdoor activities and could tie in with the Riverwalk park system – and it would also synergize with existing activities on the Northbank, such as TIAA Bank Field
"It could be you that you visit the Museum and then go to see a ball game or the Jaguars play," Fafard said. "It really fits into the whole development of what's going on in in the Northbank."
The Mosh 2.0 Capital Campaign sought to raise $20 million for a complete redesign and renovation of its existing facility at 1025 Museum Circle on the Southbank – a project that was estimated to cost between $80 million and $90 million. The $60 million to $70 million needed after fundraising was complete was expected to come from grants and other funding sources.
Fafard said the plan to move to the Shipyards would stay within that cost estimate – and it could even be slightly cheaper.
"For the total project, we're still estimating it to be between $80 and $90 million – that's cradle to grave, that's the entire project," Fafard said. "When we get to the actual design phase, we do expect to realize some cost savings because we won't have to rehab an existing building – but we're not exactly what that's going to be yet."
He added that the Museum has raised approximately $7 million towards their goal so far, and added that they've identified a significant portion of the remaining $13 million in public and private sectors. Fafard also noted that donors to the campaign – including VyStar Credit Union and PNC Bank – have been pleased with the idea of moving to the Shipyards.
"They are excited, to put it mildly," Fafard said.
Park questions:
Before that project can move ahead, though, the city has to firm up what it wants to do with the Shipyards property.
In August, Shad Khan's Iguana Investments' previous development agreement for the property – as well as the adjacent Metropolitan Park – expired. At the time, Boyer told the Business Journal that the expiration of the deal wasn't a sign that Iguana had lost interest, but rather that it was a procurement issue.
When the agreement expired, the mayor's office withdrew a bill that would have removed development restrictions on Metropolitan Park, with Chief of Staff Brian Hughes saying "the bill is no longer necessary."
Boyer said she anticipates hearing from the National Park Service within the next 30 days, and from there the path forward highly depends on their answer – and the answer isn't just a simple yes or no.
She said the National Park Service could opt to only take a certain parcel, it could express interest in the entire property or it could say no to the property all together.
"Maybe in the next 30 days, we'll hear something as to whether that might be an acceptable piece of land – and if it is, then you start refining the details," Boyer said. "If it is [acceptable], then that goes to the board and you'd say 'OK, the National Park Service said they'll consider it, are you willing to do it?'"
She also said that development of the property needs to take into consideration how it impacts the broader picture of long-term downtown development.
"Do we want a park there, does putting a park on the Shipyards property substantially increase the value of the jail site when we relocate the jail?" Boyer said. "That's the question that we have to look at if we meet the threshold."
Boyer said one of the few specifics she knew about the Museum's proposal to relocate was that they wanted to acquire the property at no cost – and it wouldn't be taxable property.
Furthermore, she said what MOSH plans to do with their current facility is equally important.
"We want something experiential there – whether it's another museum, whether it's a hotel or a restaurant or a food hall. You could think of a bunch of different things that it could be," Boyer said. "I personally would want to see something adjacent to the park or an expanded park in that location with a restaurant on it, back against the street."
Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 15, 2020, 10:20:59 AM
Doesn't all of that land need remediation? Who pays for that?
Fun, genuinely cool fact:
There's been talk that we might be able to repurpose rubble from the Berkman II to help cap/remediate certain portions of the Shipyards property.
I don't know if moving MOSH is good or bad. I hope their board is putting MOSH's interests first and not being browbeaten by the Mayor or his cronies who (cynic in me says) have some ulterior motives to help more of his major supporters. I am looking for the other shoe to drop here like who gets the sweetheart deal to takeover the existing MOSH building/site and/or if this is something to boost the faux Bay Street "innovation" corridor that lacks "innovations" of consequence or if somehow this can benefit Khan's interests.
Given the speed, lack of transparency and no master plan for this move, one has to wonder what's really up here.
Time will tell but Dorothy, this isn't Kansas - it's Jacksonville!
MOSH's space constraints have been known for some time so I feel that's a valid reason for the relocation. I also think the ship museum is a terrible idea, but it's less terrible if it is right behind a new and improved MOSH.
I'm all for development and there's been no short of news the last 5 days about it.
But I think we really need appropriate development.
If MOSH moves across to the shipyards, why can't the USS Orleck be a part of that? Or the Jacksonville Fire Museum? I just think MOSH can bring these altogether and really emphasize the "H" in it's name.
Cleary this has been in work for some time, so there must be SOME thought behind this. But a true implementation plan? Clearly not.
I'm still not in love with this idea, but I'm SLOWLY warming to it. As long as they do it right.
Here's hoping that we do not lose Friendship Park/Friendship Fountain.
Thinking more about this....this may be a $150M plan, all in, when you consider:
- Environmental
- Parkland Development (you can't just plant grass)
- MOSH move.
- Other costs like USS Orleck, etc.
If Curry decided he wanted to spend $150M on this instead of Lot J, I'd be all for it.
Quote from: Papa33 on October 16, 2020, 09:14:16 AM
Here's hoping that we do not lose Friendship Park/Friendship Fountain.
I actually don't think we will. The more and more I listen to Boyer, I think she gets more right then she gets wrong. the Convention Center/Old City Hall property plan doesn't make sense to me, but Hughes didn't exactly set her up well on that one.
I outlined earlier how this could be really amazing. The potential is there. But the potential is there for a lot downtown, and most is unrealized. Why are we going to get it right this time?
Instead of a rustbucket no one else wants perhaps a more recent and appropriate ship that was a workhorse in Mayport... The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate...
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24342/u-s-to-offer-surplus-oliver-hazard-perry-frigates-to-ukraine-reports
Quote from: Steve on October 16, 2020, 09:02:20 AMI'm still not in love with this idea, but I'm SLOWLY warming to it. As long as they do it right.
Agreed, particularly from the museum's perspective, for a few reasons:
1) They can expand their footprint beyond the space constraints of the Southbank property
2) They can continuously operate and drive revenue throughout construction, rather than closing for two years for renovations
3) With education/care for the St. Johns River being such a big focus of Mosh 2.0, it would be nice for them to actually be on the river, have programming along the river, be able to offer boat tours, etc.
4) And, of course, the $20 million from the CIP that probably wouldn't be available to them on the Southbank doesn't hurt either
Shad Khan's statement gives me some hope that may open up the checkbook to help as well:
QuoteIn an emailed statement Oct. 15, Khan said that he's "all in" on the MOSH proposal to relocate and be "the centerpiece of a new riverfront park."
"I've expressed my interest and endorsement to museum officials and pledge to wholeheartedly and personally support the effort," Khan said. "Opening a world-class destination like the Museum of Science and History at the confluence of Hogan's Creek and the St. Johns River would be a spectacular addition to Downtown Jacksonville."
From a PR perspective, it would be
brilliant for Shad Khan to bankroll the proposed Veteran's Park and help with the MOSH. Would earn him so much goodwill with the community leading up to subsequent big asks with the stadium and, inevitably, convention center.
To your point, Steve, I'm curious what the overall price tag is going to be and how it's going to be financed.
For remediation, we've got just under $13 million in a city account already for Shipyards remediation as a result of the LandMar bankruptcy lawsuit. Not sure what type of remediation would be required for museum use, but I do know that the MOSH Shipyards site that they're talking about is one of the more polluted sections of the Shipyards in terms of arsenic and lead and well beyond the threshold for commercial use.
Park, riverwalk, parking accommodations, and any Orleck subsidy probably won't be cheap. Wonder where the cash comes from if we're already borrowing $200 million+ for Lot J.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on October 16, 2020, 10:08:05 AM
From a PR perspective, it would be brilliant for Shad Khan to bankroll the proposed Veteran's Park and help with the MOSH. Would earn him so much goodwill with the community leading up to subsequent big asks with the stadium and, inevitably, convention center.
This is what kills me. To be clear - no one, no matter how much their worth, is ever obligated to give to charity, etc.
But, the man could write a check for an amazing Park, MOSH, and the Orleck this afternoon. To me, if he wrote that check (which would likely be $100M), I'd probably be all in for Lot J, and let him take the tax benefits of a charitable donation while we pay $150M or whatever for Lot J.
Now, I realize he's worth close to 10 figures because he doesn't invest his money poorly.
Quote from: Steve on October 16, 2020, 09:02:20 AM
I'm still not in love with this idea, but I'm SLOWLY warming to it. As long as they do it right.
True, it's Jacksonville, what could possibly go wrong? The track record speaks for itself
Quote from: Steve on October 16, 2020, 09:15:15 AM
If Curry decided he wanted to spend $150M on this instead of Lot J, I'd be all for it.
Sounds like the city is also considering opening up the purse strings to buy back the three downtown parking garages that Metropolitan Parking Solutions owns.
Total estimated cost - $115 million :o
$52 million in cash, $63 million in debt forgiveness.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/10/14/mps-issues-notice-of-default-to-dia.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_28&cx_artPos=1#cxrecs_s
If this were to proceed, I would think there could be some great synergy with an adjacent wide-open park that catered to kids with a splash park, playground, open field, etc. Embellish the park with some references via markers or interactive features to Jax history and the river's ecosystem to dovetail with the museum's mission and educate kids in a fun environment.
It would make for a wonderful multi-generational family outing or field trip to both visit MOSH and let kids blow off steam in the park. Add some kid friendly food outlets in the area and it would generate some nice memories.
By the way, maybe this could somehow also incorporate the music museum the Historical Society is proposing. I think that Jax could also look into a combined maritime/railroad/air (Blue Angels, Bessie Coleman, Lindbergh, Naval aviation, old airports, etc.) museum with model ships and trains, maybe a small pond in the park to operate remote controlled boats (see Central Park), etc. Clustering a few museums would maybe benefit all of them above and beyond going solo.
MOSH presented some preliminary renderings of their new museum at the Shipyards location, from The Coastal. I can't tell whether this is the Bay Street or Riverwalk view.
https://thecoastal.com/culture/mosh-releases-conceptual-renderings-for-proposed-northbank-museum/
(https://i1.wp.com/thecoastal.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/mosh-render.png?resize=1140%2C570&ssl=1)
They said it was for illustrative purposes only, and that this design is absolutely not set in any way. I believe this is the Riverwalk view, they talked about a setback from the river.
I don't mind it being set back and mixed into riverfront green space. It's the exact type of cultural attraction that any urban riverfront park worth visiting more than once, will need to anchor it.
Did the preentation say where on the Shipyards it will be?
Here's the presentation:
QuoteMOSH presents vision for Jacksonville's Northbank
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/MOSH-Northbank/i-BtztrKS/0/d29aaebd/L/MOSH-L.jpg)
On November 12th, representatives from the Museum of Science & History (MOSH) presented to the City of Jacksonville Downtown Investment Authority's Strategic Implementation Committee. The presentation included a rendering, for illustrative purposes only, of their vision for MOSH Genesis — a destination for lifelong learning.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/mosh-presents-vision-for-jacksonvilles-northbank/
All the water-related stuff is interesting. Makes me wonder if they're trying to do some aquarium-type things without the heavy duty responsibilities of actually running an aquarium.
Also makes me wonder what those AquaJax guys are up to now.
It would be interesting to see what the AquaJax opinions are. It does appear that they are trying to include some aquarium-type elements into the project.
From the presentation I saw it would be in the new met park on either side of hogans creek. They left space for a museum on either or both sides of the creek.
Quote from: Lostwave on November 13, 2020, 07:25:16 AM
From the presentation I saw it would be in the new met park on either side of hogans creek. They left space for a museum on either or both sides of the creek.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 06:16:09 PM
I don't mind it being set back and mixed into riverfront green space. It's the exact type of cultural attraction that any urban riverfront park worth visiting more than once, will need to anchor it.
From a remediation perspective, the setback probably makes the most sense too.
Based on the preliminary environmental study, depending on the size of the MOSH footprint, we could probably get around having to do much major remediation for museum/park use if the museum was to the east of Hogans Creek.
(https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/PIFXMX4FOBEDPEU7HDKYI2W4JE.jpg)
MOSH Standing, presence:
"Illustration Purposes Only"
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 13, 2020, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: Lostwave on November 13, 2020, 07:25:16 AM
From the presentation I saw it would be in the new met park on either side of hogans creek. They left space for a museum on either or both sides of the creek.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 06:16:09 PM
I don't mind it being set back and mixed into riverfront green space. It's the exact type of cultural attraction that any urban riverfront park worth visiting more than once, will need to anchor it.
From a remediation perspective, the setback probably makes the most sense too.
Based on the preliminary environmental study, depending on the size of the MOSH footprint, we could probably get around having to do much major remediation for museum/park use if the museum was to the east of Hogans Creek.
(https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/PIFXMX4FOBEDPEU7HDKYI2W4JE.jpg)
East of Hogan's Creek? It is hard to read the map legend, but I think it says that dark blue is worse than light blue, and there is more dark blue east of the creek. Also, part of the east parcel will be consumed by the new interchange between the truncated Hart Ramp to downtown, and Bay Street / A.P. Randolph Blvd.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 15, 2020, 09:18:08 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 13, 2020, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: Lostwave on November 13, 2020, 07:25:16 AM
From the presentation I saw it would be in the new met park on either side of hogans creek. They left space for a museum on either or both sides of the creek.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 06:16:09 PM
I don't mind it being set back and mixed into riverfront green space. It's the exact type of cultural attraction that any urban riverfront park worth visiting more than once, will need to anchor it.
From a remediation perspective, the setback probably makes the most sense too.
Based on the preliminary environmental study, depending on the size of the MOSH footprint, we could probably get around having to do much major remediation for museum/park use if the museum was to the east of Hogans Creek.
(https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/PIFXMX4FOBEDPEU7HDKYI2W4JE.jpg)
East of Hogan's Creek?
I'd make for a poor navigator.
*West of Hogan's Creek
The parcel directly south of Maxwell House would make most sense, based on the map above.
In which case, it looks like the parcels between the mouth of Hogan's Creek and the edge of Berkman 2 are essentially the new museum district.
Assuming you count this space in front of MOSH, the space between MOSH and the Orleck Museum, and all the nasty parts on the other side that will likely stay green-space, it seems reasonable enough to replace Met Park with. The biggest challenge I could imagine would be having to put down the infrastructure to functionally replace Met Park, which I imagine is at least part of what the NPS would ask for.
QuoteShahid Khan and His Family Invest $5 Million in the Museum of Science & History's MOSH Genesis Capital Campaign
Gift from the Jacksonville Jaguars owner represents largest private donation to date
Nov. 16, 2020 — JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — The Museum of Science & History (MOSH) today announced that Shahid Khan, owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars, and his family have committed an initial $5 million gift to the MOSH Genesis capital campaign — representing the largest private donation to the campaign to date.
Khan praised the Museum's proposal to build a new museum on the Shipyards property shortly after it was publicly announced on October 15. In a previous statement, he said he was "all in" on the Museum's plans, and that the new museum "would be a spectacular addition to Downtown Jacksonville." This gift reinforces Khan's efforts to bring new development to the region, complementing his vision for Lot J to create a thriving sports and entertainment district surrounding TIAA Bank Field.
"The best downtown districts in the United States include urban parkland and cultural destinations, and we can have that here in Jacksonville with the Museum of Science and History anchoring a new riverfront park," said Khan. "I'm hoping my contribution to the capital campaign will spark additional commitment from throughout the region so we can get started on a new downtown. I am confident it will, because I know I'm not the only person in Jax who believes it's time to finally meet and even exceed our potential."
The Museum announced the launch of its capital campaign in March 2019, with the goal of raising $20 million in community support from individuals, businesses and corporations, foundations and other community stakeholders. Originally called MOSH 2.0, the campaign has since been retitled MOSH Genesis to reflect a new beginning for the Museum as it casts a bolder vision for the institution, as well as the City of Jacksonville.
"MOSH would like to express our sincere thanks to Shahid Khan and his family for committing to this remarkable investment in MOSH Genesis. This gift will not only propel the project forward, but serve as a wonderful example to others," said Bruce Fafard, CEO of MOSH. "We appreciate the leadership role that Mr. Khan is taking to make Jacksonville a better place to live, work, and play."
Sounds like someone's trying to get the heat off him. Lot J is getting the crap beaten out of it in polls.
That aside, this is a nice donation, and I'm sure MOSH appreciates it.
Good for Khan.
Obviously doesn't hurt that it's good for optics with Lot J on the table, but $5 million is a nice gift.
I quite like the idea of MOSH Genesis and the USS Orleck anchoring the proposed new riverfront park.
There's still the pesky issue of a) getting the feds to sign off on a land swap, b) funding construction of said park.
^I'd like to see the Fire Museum added to the mix. No one is talking about it but it isn't on the Four Seasons plan. Would hate to see it get demoed for an apartment complex.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 16, 2020, 12:03:31 PM
I quite like the idea of MOSH Genesis and the USS Orleck anchoring the proposed new riverfront park.
There's still the pesky issue of a) getting the feds to sign off on a land swap, b) funding construction of said park.
Right? Turns out clustering uses is good.
How about the city uses whatever endless money pile they're getting the money from for the Landing, Ford on Bay, Lot J, its share of the Hart Ramps, and all that other magical stuff?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2020, 12:17:14 PM
^I'd like to see the Fire Museum added to the mix. No one is talking about it but it isn't on the Four Seasons plan. Would hate to see it get demoed for an apartment complex.
Good point. Wasn't that originally on Catherine Street anyway?
Yes, it was originally on Catherine Street, so a move would possibly put it back pretty close to where its history began.
Guys, what if MOSH put out these fancy renderings of a new Northbank facility in a bid to secure funds from Khan, only to produce a vastly scaled-back version of what was originally proposed on their current Southbank property?
I would be shocked! Shocked, I tell you! Who would do such a thing?!
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 15, 2020, 11:27:40 PM
I don't know if moving MOSH is good or bad. I hope their board is putting MOSH's interests first and not being browbeaten by the Mayor or his cronies who (cynic in me says) have some ulterior motives to help more of his major supporters. I am looking for the other shoe to drop here like who gets the sweetheart deal to takeover the existing MOSH building/site and/or if this is something to boost the faux Bay Street "innovation" corridor that lacks "innovations" of consequence or if somehow this can benefit Khan's interests.
Given the speed, lack of transparency and no master plan for this move, one has to wonder what's really up here.
Time will tell but Dorothy, this isn't Kansas - it's Jacksonville!
My prediction of Kahn's interest in this project is on the mark. Yes, it's a nice and generous contribution but my guess is the $5 million may also approximate the incremental costs of moving from the Southbank to a new building on the Northbank making it a wash for the net result. Wouldn't be surprised if the MOSH board had Khan's pledge in hand when they voted to move. If, indeed, MOSH is an asset along the river, it will benefit Khan's project as much as any* and he adds the "goodwill" of making a significant donation. I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone. Sad to say and wish/hope I am wrong. Let's see if Mr. Khan starts approaching the Weavers in expanding his generosity in his adopted City to get me thinking anew.
*To add after my post above, just saw this quote in the WJCT article the Jaxson posted:
QuoteMOSH's leadership cited factors such as the proposed Lot J development nearby at the sports complex and the fact that a new building would eliminate the need to close the MOSH for approximately two years during construction.
Not to put down a 5 million dollar donation, but isn't that a "rounding error" of his wealth?
Or, as some have put it, "sofa cushion money"
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 16, 2020, 10:46:08 PM
I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone.
It is genuinely insane how many people don't believe this. You'd never expect it until you run into someone who believes (or at least pretends to) that Gate donates tens of thousands to political campaigns out of the simple feeling that they'd be the best for the job. Actually, let me paste just
part of something I got from someone on Nextdoor once.
QuoteNobody said we should elevate the local Peyton family and Gate above the rest, and nobody would, so that's a stupid and irrelevant conjecture: literally Democratic talking points of both local and national levels (because they're the same ideas, actually).
It's always a good idea to follow the money. But remember, corporations are made up of people and hire people, which is where the rest of us get our living money...out of this "profit" you assume is bad. It's not bad...it's your livelihood. However, profit is bad if you or anyone seeks it above all else to the detriment of others. Money is not the root of all evil...it's a useful tool. The LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Like individuals, corporations...because they are a group of individuals, can persue a money-making livlihood by providing a good, needed service. Or, they can be toxic in practice or culture. Most toxic practices are illegal or unprofitable. How will you retain your strength, your workforce, if you don't treat your people well, with respect?
It is unwise and unhealthy to assume all corporations are made up of greedy, heartless jerks just waiting to prey upon the good, innocent worker. Life is about individual character, and it plays out in private life and in work life. The truth that "he who is unfaithful in little is unfaithful in much," and "he who is faithful in little is faithful in much" applies here, too. A company can be well run by a benevolent person or team that built it from the ground up or took it over faithfully, or it can be run by narcissistic sociopaths (and employees come in various characters, too). Those two companies would be very different. And to treat them the same would be an injustice to the ones striving to run the one with integrity and heart and the greedy heartless ones. Everything in life comes down to heart, character, and individual choices‐ good vs. bad, or as it has long been called: good vs. evil. It's ultimately that simple- Even in a corporation.
Do you know the inner workings of Gate Petroleum? Are they run by a family who prizes the employees and treats them well, like the Green family, or are they not? That determines if their support is good or a potentially bad indicator. Anything else is either naiveté or class warfare that pits the owners against the workers or the rich against the middle class or poor. This is foolish because how can a business run well if there is animus between the body and the heads/leadership? A house divided will not stand...even a house of business. Money is neither good nor evil: it's and inanimate tool... So, follow it to the character of the one(s) using it. There, you will find your answer...and as far as I know, I like Gate Petroleum and the services they provide. Their business are clean, offer good products, reasonably priced. I am glad Durbin Pavillion opened near us and it is very convenient. Would I want the Whole area to look like that? Of course not. But having good businesses in the area is essential...we just need to make sure we are implementing good Urban Planning in the area which has plenty of schools, green spaces, shopping, and safe housing districts with well-maintained roads and utilities (all provided by businesses I might add...business is not the enemy... Corruption, failing to treat others the way you want to be treated, even in business -that's the enemy). And unless you can expose Gate as the dreaded example of businesses above, and not one of the good ones providing a good and necessary business providing us goods and jobs in the area, then an $8000 donation is simply a detail that lets me know they think Whitehurst will do the best job.
This person wrote thousands of words of stuff like this.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 16, 2020, 11:26:32 AM
Sounds like someone's trying to get the heat off him. Lot J is getting the crap beaten out of it in polls.
That aside, this is a nice donation, and I'm sure MOSH appreciates it.
Who wouldn't?
Quote from: JBTripper on November 16, 2020, 06:52:05 PM
Guys, what if MOSH put out these fancy renderings of a new Northbank facility in a bid to secure funds from Khan, only to produce a vastly scaled-back version of what was originally proposed on their current Southbank property?
Not seeing it. Khan is not the only donor. Yes $5M is material but there are many local leaders driving this one, including Brian Wolfberg (VyStar CEO). I think Khan definitely did this for some goodwill, but $5M is $5M-lets appreciate the donation but still give Lot J and his various renderings the scrutiny that they deserve.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 16, 2020, 10:46:08 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if the MOSH board had Khan's pledge in hand when they voted to move. If, indeed, MOSH is an asset along the river, it will benefit Khan's project as much as any* and he adds the "goodwill" of making a significant donation. I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone. Sad to say and wish/hope I am wrong. Let's see if Mr. Khan starts approaching the Weavers in expanding his generosity in his adopted City to get me thinking anew.
I will raise you - it seems entirely possible that Khan's interest was known before the relocation announcement was made....and that the donation was conditional on relocation to this area.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 17, 2020, 12:54:54 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 16, 2020, 10:46:08 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if the MOSH board had Khan's pledge in hand when they voted to move. If, indeed, MOSH is an asset along the river, it will benefit Khan's project as much as any* and he adds the "goodwill" of making a significant donation. I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone. Sad to say and wish/hope I am wrong. Let's see if Mr. Khan starts approaching the Weavers in expanding his generosity in his adopted City to get me thinking anew.
I will raise you - it seems entirely possible that Khan's interest was known before the relocation announcement was made....and that the donation was conditional on relocation to this area.
THIS I think is possible. I mean, I do think this could be beneficial overall.
I mean, IF it is a win-win, then I'm all for it.
I wouldn't doubt it, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. More of it needs to happen with DT IMO.
Quote from: Steve on November 17, 2020, 12:42:34 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on November 16, 2020, 06:52:05 PM
Guys, what if MOSH put out these fancy renderings of a new Northbank facility in a bid to secure funds from Khan, only to produce a vastly scaled-back version of what was originally proposed on their current Southbank property?
Not seeing it. Khan is not the only donor. Yes $5M is material but there are many local leaders driving this one, including Brian Wolfberg (VyStar CEO). I think Khan definitely did this for some goodwill, but $5M is $5M-lets appreciate the donation but still give Lot J and his various renderings the scrutiny that they deserve.
I thought they were making a joke about Daily's Place and Lot J. Fancy renderings to get people supporting us going halfsies, only to value engineer it to all hell and end up with what we have now.
Quote from: Steve on November 17, 2020, 01:31:45 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 17, 2020, 12:54:54 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 16, 2020, 10:46:08 PMWouldn't be surprised if the MOSH board had Khan's pledge in hand when they voted to move. If, indeed, MOSH is an asset along the river, it will benefit Khan's project as much as any* and he adds the "goodwill" of making a significant donation. I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone. Sad to say and wish/hope I am wrong. Let's see if Mr. Khan starts approaching the Weavers in expanding his generosity in his adopted City to get me thinking anew.
I will raise you - it seems entirely possible that Khan's interest was known before the relocation announcement was made....and that the donation was conditional on relocation to this area.
If politics played into the MOSH moving from the Southbank to the Northbank, my money's on the mayor's office getting involved, not the Jags. The $20 million in the CIP for MOSH 2.0 didn't magically appear out of nowhere. Nor does Khan have the power to essentially promise free city-owned land to the MOSH. Not saying the $5 million from Khan wasn't known about before (they've been talking about having significant, undisclosed private funding in place for a while now), but if they changed their plans, it was because someone quietly offered up free riverfront land and significant public support from the CIP, not because Khan offered up a $5 million donation.
It's funny that we talk about the lack of a master plan for downtown, because so often it feels like there's a secret master plan (and a secret CIP) sitting around in someone's drawer somewhere. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the Hart Bridge ramps removed before a term sheet for Lot J even existed. Or Rockville and a second Jags home game pushed out of Jacksonville to allow for Lot J construction when no official deal is in place. Or MOSH publicly announcing that they're moving to the Shipyards - a move that is predicated on the Jags developing Met Park. Or the rumblings about the jail being moved off the river. Or the talk about the Jags having dibs on the fairgrounds here in the next couple of years.
Been in Jacksonville long enough to know that about 90% of the ol' iceberg is underneath the waterline.
I know we harp on this all the time, but if this move happens this is a great opportunity for clustering / combining projects.
I recently visited the Frost Museum of Science and Perez Art Museum in Miami. WOW! That whole area is amazing and is something we should aim for in Jax. The Science museum is combined with a rooftop aquarium and aviary which overlooks the massive public park, Art museum and downtown skyline nextdoor. The Monorail drops you off right in front of it all, so it's easy to get in and out if you're staying in one of the hotels downtown.
The museums and grounds around them were very well kept. The architecture was very modern and unique, incorporating plants into the sides of the buildings. There are also classes for kids and adults throughout the day which is a fun break from just looking at things.
If AquaJax still exists and has funding they should definitely consider splitting cost with MoSH to combine their projects. The Frost Museum is a great example of how an aquarium doesn't need to be massive to be impressive. Same goes for the folks trying to bring a Naval ship in. This would be a great opportunity for them to add to the "History" portion of MoSH while providing some sort of bonus ticket to tour a ship on the water. New York's Enterprise museum does this charging for a tour of the submarine nextdoor.
Although, I'd hate to see MoCA abandon the core it would benefit them to be near the new MoSH location as well. The Current MoCA space would make for a nice boutique hotel for the library and Sweet Pete's which often host weddings and other events. Currently, there are no overnight options for the wedding parties to walk to those venues. I could see it being an easy money maker as a hotel, post pandemic.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2020, 12:17:14 PM
^I'd like to see the Fire Museum added to the mix. No one is talking about it but it isn't on the Four Seasons plan. Would hate to see it get demoed for an apartment complex.
Don't forget that the Historical Society is planning their Southern Rock museum/concert space two blocks away from the proposed MOSH 2.0 space as well at the old Casket Factory building.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 17, 2020, 05:30:21 PM
I recently visited the Frost Museum of Science and Perez Art Museum in Miami. WOW! That whole area is amazing and is something we should aim for in Jax. If AquaJax still exists and has funding they should definitely consider splitting cost with MoSH to combine their projects.
^Great analogy.
BEAUTIFUL museum and campus.
Would love to see something like this in Jax, though the scale would obviously be a little different ($300 million for Frost, with about $140 million coming from the the private capital campaign; $80 million for MOSH 2.0, with about $20 million coming from private capital).
The AquaJax group had a great relationship with MOSH, I actually really do like the idea of incorporating a much less expensive aquarium element within a new MOSH.
MOSH + Orleck + Fire Museum + Aquarium element + riverfront greenspace (with the Southern Rock museum on the other side of Maxwell House) would be really cool. As would the water taxi connection between the Zoo and the Aquarium/MOSH that was discussed way back when.
Did the AquaJax group ever have any money? I've always felt the aquarium was a pipe dream, not a real feasible project with financial backing. Sort of like the observation deck thing for the Shipyards, prior to Khan's various proposals. So whatever can be included into the MOSH project, the better because that's as close as an aquarium will be materializing in DT Jax.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 17, 2020, 11:42:17 PM
Did the AquaJax group ever have any money? I've always felt the aquarium was a pipe dream, not a real feasible project with financial backing.
Definitely seemed like a well-intentioned pipe dream from a nice group of marine-conscious folks, rather than a feasible project.
They originally came from OneSpark, and I believe the farthest they ever really got was a $50k feasibility study funded by the Weavers and Khans.
George Harrell, who was leading the group, passed away late last year.
Their biggest value to MOSH would be their expertise, rather than their capital, as I believe most of them have marine biology and/or zoological backgrounds.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 17, 2020, 11:54:49 PM
Their biggest value to MOSH would be their expertise, rather than their capital, as I believe most of them have marine biology and/or zoological backgrounds.
I thought at one time there was talk of the Zoo operating any aquarium that got built. I can see lots more synergies there than with MOSH. With the Zoo having a dock, they could also shuttle patrons between it and a riverfront aquarium downtown using the river taxis. Sell an all day tix package of parking (at the zoo avoiding finding a space downtown), zoo and aquarium admissions, taxi and maybe a food and souvenir package. Can throw in MOSH if they can work it out (might need to add a two day ticket at that point :) ). In other cities, museums join together and sell, for example, a 7 day ticket that admits to multiple museums/attractions. With the Zoo's fundraising track record, they might have the best chance to pull this off.
This may be an obvious statement, but there better be some sort of educational partnership with the Riverkeeper, SJWMD, and potentially the Florida Springs Institute; especially if there is going to be an aquarium. We need to educate people/children on the interconnectedness of the aquifer, the springs, our waterways, and climate change in order to make smarter decisions in the future.
I'd love to see some sort of outdoor tidal exhibit on Hogans Creek or the banks of the river, an aquarium modeled after the springs with the proper inhabitants, and a wetlands exhibit featuring mangroves and grasses mimicking the keys and everglades.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 18, 2020, 02:41:14 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 17, 2020, 11:54:49 PM
Their biggest value to MOSH would be their expertise, rather than their capital, as I believe most of them have marine biology and/or zoological backgrounds.
I thought at one time there was talk of the Zoo operating any aquarium that got built. I can see lots more synergies there than with MOSH. With the Zoo having a dock, they could also shuttle patrons between it and a riverfront aquarium downtown using the river taxis. Sell an all day tix package of parking (at the zoo avoiding finds a space downtown), zoo and aquarium admissions, taxi and maybe a food and souvenir package. Can throw in MOSH if they can work it out (might need to add a two day ticket at that point :)). In other cities, museums join together and sell, for example, a 7 day ticket that admits to multiple museums/attractions. With the Zoo's fundraising track record, they might have the best chance to pull this off.
Linking the zoo and the aquarium via water taxi was brought up as a desire by the AquaJax people initially.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 18, 2020, 09:46:40 AM
This may be an obvious statement, but there better be some sort of educational partnership with the Riverkeeper, SJWMD, and potentially the Florida Springs Institute; especially if there is going to be an aquarium. We need to educate people/children on the interconnectedness of the aquifer, the springs, our waterways, and climate change in order to make smarter decisions in the future.
I'd love to see some sort of outdoor tidal exhibit on Hogans Creek or the banks of the river, an aquarium modeled after the springs with the proper inhabitants, and a wetlands exhibit featuring mangroves and grasses mimicking the keys and everglades.
This makes the most sense. But, the Zoo has a VERY ambitious master plan, which included:
- Redoing the Parking lot (almost done)
- A new front entrance (the existing one will become the education campus)
- A new entry exhibit - Manatees were the discussion
- A new feature for Orangutans
- Rebuilt Lion Exhibit
- A New Wild Florida
- Redesigned riverfront
With the exception of the parking, they have a lot of plans already. This was also all before Covid.
So, while I agree the Zoo COULD do the aquarium, I'm not sure how interested they really are.
Details here:
https://www.wokv.com/news/local/jacksonville-zoo-ten-year-overhaul-poised-begin/DFuOFLNFSxhbGreLqMOr2N/
For those not familiar with the current layout, if you find the "Manatee Gateway" (new entrance) and mentally draw a horizontal line left and right from there, everything above that is existing (save for the swapped entrance and education facilities and the relocated Wild Florida, which is now listed as "Congo Forest". Everything below that would be new, except for "Asia", which is the Land of the Tiger.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 18, 2020, 09:46:40 AM
This may be an obvious statement, but there better be some sort of educational partnership with the Riverkeeper, SJWMD, and potentially the Florida Springs Institute; especially if there is going to be an aquarium. We need to educate people/children on the interconnectedness of the aquifer, the springs, our waterways, and climate change in order to make smarter decisions in the future.
I'd love to see some sort of outdoor tidal exhibit on Hogans Creek or the banks of the river, an aquarium modeled after the springs with the proper inhabitants, and a wetlands exhibit featuring mangroves and grasses mimicking the keys and everglades.
Agreed that various groups should partner on this and there are many good options. JU's Marine Science Institute would also be a good partner. A REALLY big opportunity is to get OCEARCH to relocate their fleet to the site and create and exhibit. I believe they are currently at Mayport Village. They have a global following and might actually pull some people off I-95.
Along with Hogan's Creek kayaking, the other big ecotourism opportunity I see is to finally do something with Exchange Island. For such a big river, there are laughably few destinations for boaters. I live in the one of the best areas for offshore boating in the state (Jupiter), but there are still tons of cool places to boat inland. There are several places along the intracoastal you can dock and hike preserves at, numerous sandbars, and some great island parks. Peanut Island in the intracoastal near West Palm Beach would be a great model for Exchange Island. It's kayak and paddleboard distance from land and attracts tons of them, but also has docks, beaches, and sandbars for boats. It has some of the clearest water in the state and great snorkeling, so not totally analogous, but would still be a great model. It has camping, trails, fishing, hiking, and numerous picnic spots and pavilions. https://discover.pbcgov.org/parks/Pages/PeanutIsland.aspx
If the new MOSH wants to have a conservation/ecological focus, having the opportunity to offer boat tours, kayaks, and paddleboards to Exchange Island to get a feel for the wild St. Johns would be a big draw there and to Downtown in general. We used to do overnight sleepovers at MOSH as a kid, which was cool; but imagine doing stuff at MOSH all day and then taking a boat to camp out at Exchange Island. Of all the screw up's Jax has made related to Downtown, not taking full advantage of Exchange Island is up there as one of the big ones. If Mosh is going to the Northbank, it would be the perfect time for Jax to make an investment there that would not only benefit the general public, but also provide a huge boost to MOSH and downtown.
Wow, I feel like I've seen those Zoo plans before, but boy do they look great. Any chance of a way to make this MOSH/Aquarium stuff an actual conversation?
Quote from: CityLife on November 18, 2020, 10:55:39 AM
Agreed that various groups should partner on this and there are many good options. JU's Marine Science Institute would also be a good partner. A REALLY big opportunity is to get OCEARCH to relocate their fleet to the site and create and exhibit. I believe they are currently at Mayport Village. They have a global following and might actually pull some people off I-95.
I don't know if this has changed since Vystar took over the building, but I know OCEARCH was using some space in the JU facilities downtown last year or in 2018.
I agree that they would be another great partner to engage along with JU. The water taxi could do quarterly science treks between MOSH, JU, the Zoo and exchange island if that were to be built out. Could be an overnight thing and that would be an awesome program. MOSH was already within a 2 minute walk of the water, but with the clean slate that this new location provides, I think MOSH and COJ need to get this right as far as building an educational hub that incorporates our many local science organizations and engage one of the areas greatest resources, the river, as much as possible.
Starting to feel like those Baltimore guys, so I'll calm down for now..
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 17, 2020, 05:30:21 PMThe Current MoCA space would make for a nice boutique hotel for the library and Sweet Pete's which often host weddings and other events.
MOCA cafe is closing after today :(
Not enough foot traffic with the pandemic.
Just grabbed lunch from there a few minutes ago.
Going to miss that Sweet Potato Bisque.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 18, 2020, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: CityLife on November 18, 2020, 10:55:39 AM
Agreed that various groups should partner on this and there are many good options. JU's Marine Science Institute would also be a good partner. A REALLY big opportunity is to get OCEARCH to relocate their fleet to the site and create and exhibit. I believe they are currently at Mayport Village. They have a global following and might actually pull some people off I-95.
I don't know if this has changed since Vystar took over the building, but I know OCEARCH was using some space in the JU facilities downtown last year or in 2018.
I agree that they would be another great partner to engage along with JU. The water taxi could do quarterly science treks between MOSH, JU, the Zoo and exchange island if that were to be built out. Could be an overnight thing and that would be an awesome program. MOSH was already within a 2 minute walk of the water, but with the clean slate that this new location provides, I think MOSH and COJ need to get this right as far as building an educational hub that incorporates our many local science organizations and engage one of the areas greatest resources, the river, as much as possible.
Starting to feel like those Baltimore guys, so I'll calm down for now..
Those Baltimore guys wish they had ideas like this.
It truly is a no brainer to try to pull all of these entities together, and also do something at Exchange Island.
Still committed. ~4 years to open, apparently.
MOSH CEO hopes to open new museum in late 2024
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/mosh-ceo-hopes-open-up-new-museum-late-2024/CDLVQTCGI5CRNEHSHUVSHJQKSM/
I doubt it. Lets give them a full year to get a design together, gain DDRB approval, get through permitting, etc. (highly unrealistic), then 24 to 36 months to construct. You're right at late 2024 already. Now, are they going to build this on a part of the Shipyards that is contaminated? How long would that clean up take? At Lot J, they were estimating as much as three years for the contamination cleanup part alone. If the same timeframe were applied to the Shipyards, then we're looking closer to 2027 than 2024.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 26, 2021, 01:57:57 PM
I doubt it. Lets give them a full year to get a design together, gain DDRB approval, get through permitting, etc. (highly unrealistic), then 24 to 36 months to construct. You're right at late 2024 already. Now, are they going to build this on a part of the Shipyards that is contaminated? How long would that clean up take? At Lot J, they were estimating as much as three years for the contamination cleanup part alone. If the same timeframe were applied to the Shipyards, then we're looking closer to 2027 than 2024.
The biggest issue is funding. Based on the below article, it appears they have raised $7.5 million (30% raised of $25 million from private donors) of the $85+ million expected project costs (likely not counting the costs of any remediation). Of the $7.5 million, $5 million came from Khan leaving $2.5 million from other private donors. I am not sure how many more multi-million gifts they can count on but they will need a few to get there in time.
While I wish them well, given COVID's impact on both private and Federal/State/City finances, I am wondering how they will pull this off in time to open in 2024, on top of the issues Lake highlights. Maybe Curry can redirect some of that $233 million for Lot J to this project :).
Quote
...High on the list of things that have to happen before any move is fundraising. In 2019, the museum released its ambitious MOSH 2.0 plan, which called for raising $20-$25 million from private sources to renovate the existing Southbank campus and tie it in with the adjacent Friendship Fountain. That plan was scrapped in October in favor of building a new facility across the river.
Fafard said MOSH has raised about 30 percent of that money. Much of it was donated for the old MOSH 2.0 plan, but Fafard said those donors have been supportive of MOSH Genesis, the plan for a new museum....
....Shad Khan, owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars, donated $5 million to the project in November after the planned move was announced. Khan has plans to develop several parcels of land near the new museum site.
The price tag for the new facility will be around $85 million. Fafard said MOSH is looking at city, state and federal grants to cover the bulk of the construction expense....
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/entertainment/arts/2021/01/21/mosh-jacksonville-museum-moving-ahead-northbank-relocation-plan/4220894001/ (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/entertainment/arts/2021/01/21/mosh-jacksonville-museum-moving-ahead-northbank-relocation-plan/4220894001/)
Friendship Fountain construction might finally be starting this spring.
Maybe?
https://news.wjct.org/post/one-year-late-renovation-begin-southbank-s-friendship-fountain
Love the quotes from the DIA.
Just no accountability from anyone in terms of moving beyond talk and actually getting dirt turning.
MOSH has received $31.8 million in private donations towards their relocation efforts. Pretty impressive
QuoteThe Downtown Investment Authority board is scheduled to vote July 29 on a resolution to start negotiations with the Museum of Science and History to move its facility to part of the vacant city-owned Shipyards property on the Northbank.
The action would authorize DIA CEO Lori Boyer to begin talks with MOSH leadership about the museum's plans to build on a portion of a 21.7-acre parcel.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-consider-negotiations-for-new-mosh-at-shipyards
Wonderful news. The ball just keeps rolling, by itself in downtown Jacksonville.
Quote from: Zac T on July 27, 2021, 12:10:08 PM
MOSH has received $31.8 million in private donations towards their relocation efforts. Pretty impressive
QuoteThe Downtown Investment Authority board is scheduled to vote July 29 on a resolution to start negotiations with the Museum of Science and History to move its facility to part of the vacant city-owned Shipyards property on the Northbank.
The action would authorize DIA CEO Lori Boyer to begin talks with MOSH leadership about the museum's plans to build on a portion of a 21.7-acre parcel.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-consider-negotiations-for-new-mosh-at-shipyards
This is a great start.
With the city's proposed contribution, they're up to over $50 million toward the new facility.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 28, 2021, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: Zac T on July 27, 2021, 12:10:08 PM
MOSH has received $31.8 million in private donations towards their relocation efforts. Pretty impressive
QuoteThe Downtown Investment Authority board is scheduled to vote July 29 on a resolution to start negotiations with the Museum of Science and History to move its facility to part of the vacant city-owned Shipyards property on the Northbank.
The action would authorize DIA CEO Lori Boyer to begin talks with MOSH leadership about the museum's plans to build on a portion of a 21.7-acre parcel.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-consider-negotiations-for-new-mosh-at-shipyards
This is a great start.
With the city's proposed contribution, they're up to over $50 million toward the new facility.
I am not so sure of that. The Daily Record article said the $31.8 million also includes "civic funding" which I read to be the City's contribution.
QuoteIn a July 22 email, CEO Bruce Fafard said the organization has $31.8 million in commitments from individual donors, businesses and civic funding for its MOSH Genesis capital relocation campaign.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 28, 2021, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: Zac T on July 27, 2021, 12:10:08 PM
MOSH has received $31.8 million in private donations towards their relocation efforts. Pretty impressive
QuoteThe Downtown Investment Authority board is scheduled to vote July 29 on a resolution to start negotiations with the Museum of Science and History to move its facility to part of the vacant city-owned Shipyards property on the Northbank.
The action would authorize DIA CEO Lori Boyer to begin talks with MOSH leadership about the museum's plans to build on a portion of a 21.7-acre parcel.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-consider-negotiations-for-new-mosh-at-shipyards
This is a great start.
With the city's proposed contribution, they're up to over $50 million toward the new facility.
With all of that money, should be a state of the art building/facility with stellar attraction impetus; hopefully will pull some of those passer throughs and tourists of off the interstates to spend money downtown.
Today I got an email from the Museum of Science and History (aka MOSH) announcing they have selected a team to design their new museum on the Northbank.
Quote
The Museum of Science & History (MOSH) today announced the selection of DLR Group as the lead architect for the MOSH Genesis project on the Northbank of Downtown Jacksonville. DLR Group will work with kasper architects + associates, a Jacksonville-based architecture firm and SCAPE, a New York-based landscape architecture firm on the project.
...
"Over the past eight months, MOSH's Board of Trustees and the Genesis Oversight Committee led a competitive process to identify the best possible design partners. We knew this project required the expertise of both a national firm with deep experience in museum architecture, and a local partner with existing relationships and knowledge of the Jacksonville market. Together, we know DLR Group, kasper architects + associates, and SCAPE will bring our vision to life," said Bruce Fafard, President and CEO of MOSH.
DLR Group is a global integrated design firm specializing in significant cultural arts projects nationally and internationally. Ranked as one of the top Cultural Design Firms in the world by BD World Architecture, DLR Group brings to MOSH a multidisciplinary team with deep museum experience, including the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, the Museum at Bethel Woods (Woodstock Museum), the Smithsonian American Art Museum's Renwick Gallery and the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts in Philadelphia.
DLR Group: https://www.dlrgroup.com/work/projects/museums
SCAPE: https://www.scapestudio.com/
kaspar architects: https://www.kasperarch.com/
Per the DIA meeting tonight, we're looking at a best case scenario of the new MOSH at the Shipyards opening in 2027.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 17, 2021, 09:16:05 PM
Per the DIA meeting tonight, we're looking at a best case scenario of the new MOSH at the Shipyards opening in 2027.
I know things move at a snails pace here but curious as to why it may take that long?
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on November 18, 2021, 05:57:13 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 17, 2021, 09:16:05 PM
Per the DIA meeting tonight, we're looking at a best case scenario of the new MOSH at the Shipyards opening in 2027.
I know things move at a snails pace here but curious as to why it may take that long?
My guess... Raising $85M, final design, red tape with they city, remediation of the site, construction of a specialized building, building out the exhibits. Not your typical building job.
QuoteDIA board member Jim Citrano Jr. said several members hoped to see a site plan or design before the long-term ground lease returns to the board for a final vote in January.
After the meeting, Fafard said MOSH is beginning the design phase and the final design likely will be complete in mid-2022.
QuoteAccording to Boyer, MOSH would contract designs for the other 2.86 acres as a public park, Downtown Riverwalk extension and Emerald Trail connection.
The city would reimburse MOSH up to $500,000 for the public and park space design.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/vote-starts-clock-for-dia-to-complete-negotiations-for-mosh-site
These two items make me pretty nervous. DIA approval without a design and 3 acres of public park with only $500k in reimbursement. The city should set a minimum spend on the park or require certain things or I think we'll be getting another grass lot with some sidewalks and a small fountain.
The $85 million in fundraising makes me nervous.
Long way to go, but they started this capital campaign about a year ago, and have been stuck at around $11 million in private contribution and $20 million from the city for a bit now. Will obviously increase when the final design comes, the project is more concrete, they can hold some fundraising events, and hopefully there's some state money to be had, but feels like a lot of the major players in the city have already contributed.
So far, they've gotten $5 million from Shad Khan, $2.5 million from VyStar, a rumored $1 to $2 million from the Weaver family, $500k from PNC Bank, and some additional smaller donations.
I'm sure they get there eventually one way or the other, but I worry about this parcel getting locked into development hell for another decade while the MOSH pieces come together.
Particularly with the Jags contractually obligated to start construction of their development by June, and plans moving forward for a signature park on the opposite side of the MOSH parcel to satisfy a land swap for Kids Campus.
Throw in major stadium renovations, and it feels like we're looking at another decade before this area really starts to come together.
If the Orleck happens, it's gonna be a rough stretch for them trying to draw people in a construction zone without the museum.
Oh this area is another +10 years from significant change and probably +20 years away from full build out. Anyone who doesn't think so is fooling themselves and setting themselves up for a major disappointment. These things take time to develop in aggressively committed cities. Considering Jax speed, we can tack on another +5 years into that Shipyards development timeline. The quicker change will be in the Northbank with the cluster of adaptive reuse projects already underway. Unlike the waterfront east of Berkman, you'll see big change there in less than 5 years.
^ If we're lucky the Berkman II will be demolished in 5 years
West Palm Beach's Science Museum just received a $20 million dollar lead gift for a $45 renovation that will expand the science museum and create one of the biggest aquariums in Florida. This was just announced publicly in November and construction will start in 2023, with completion in 2025. Compare to Jax, where MOSH 2.0 was announced in March 2019 and is anticipated to finish in 2026 (we all know this will be closer to 2030), and only has $11 million raised. I know fundraising is way easier in Palm Beach than Jax, but it's frustrating to see Jacksonville continue to languish.
Rendering of new science museum, which is about 10 minutes from Downtown, by the Zoo.
(https://www.coxsciencecenter.org/sites/default/files/F-Render1%20cox%20-%20med.jpg)
Both this museum and the Frost Science Museum in Miami have a big emphasis on aquariums and the environment. I've been saying this on here for years, but Jax will never have a stand alone aquarium, nor is here really a market for one, but this is a great opportunity to integrate an aquarium, environmental exhibits, and downtown ecotourism into MOSH 2.0. It's truly a chance for Jacksonville to make a big splash...
If Jacksonville was a well run city, it would hire someone solely to help MOSH identify all of the different opportunities to tie Mosh 2.0 expansion in with the river, Hogan's Creek, Exchange Island, The Emerald Trail, the Zoo, JU's Marine Science Institute, OCearch, Riverkeeper, and whatever else is out there. I would love to be proven wrong, but I'm not optimistic about the City's potential to pull this off the way its heading.
^ my understanding is that MOSH has raised closer to $30 million toward the budget of $80 million
^$11 million private plus a $20 million bribe from the city to get them over by Khan's development.
Just a guess, but [a] I don't think those dollars are imprinted with the word "bribe", and I bet they spend the same.
Quote from: CityLife on December 16, 2021, 01:49:04 PMIf Jacksonville was a well run city, it would hire someone solely to help MOSH identify all of the different opportunities to tie Mosh 2.0 expansion in with the river, Hogan's Creek, Exchange Island, The Emerald Trail, the Zoo, JU's Marine Science Institute, OCearch, Riverkeeper, and whatever else is out there. I would love to be proven wrong, but I'm not optimistic about the City's potential to pull this off the way its heading.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 16, 2021, 05:22:44 PM
Just a guess, but [a] I don't think those dollars are imprinted with the word "bribe", and I bet they spend the same.
I don't blame them.
Collectively, Curry and Shad gave MOSH $25 million of their present $30 million to move across the river.
Hard to say no to that.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 16, 2021, 05:13:49 PM
^$11 million private plus a $20 million bribe from the city to get them over by Khan's development.
agreed - but I thought Khan was only giving $5 million - or is the rest quiet money for now?
For the amount of money Shad may owe Urban, he could have supplied the rest of the funding for the MOSH.
Quote from: jaxjags on December 17, 2021, 10:32:48 AM
For the amount of money Shad may owe Urban, he could have supplied the rest of the funding for the MOSH.
Maybe Urban Myer will make a donation.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 17, 2021, 10:01:26 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 16, 2021, 05:13:49 PM
^$11 million private plus a $20 million bribe from the city to get them over by Khan's development.
agreed - but I thought Khan was only giving $5 million - or is the rest quiet money for now?
Major private donations so far include $5 million from Shad Khan, $2.5 million from VyStar, a rumored $1 to $2 million from the Weaver family, and $500k from PNC Bank.
The $20 million from the city was your classic Jacksonville scenario where what may be a good idea (moving MOSH to the Shipyards) was handled so deeply in the shadows by the mayor's office that it sows needless distrust.
I joke that it was a bribe, but the truth really ain't that far off.
1. MOSH announces their Genesis plan to redevelop their existing campus on the Southbank.
2. DIA helps negotiate the sale of the River City Brewery to Related Group, with a selling point for Related being the close proximity to the museum
3. Lot J and the Four Seasons plans are marching forward, and the Jags/Mayors office decides it would be good to have MOSH nearby to support those developments
4. Magically, $20 million appears in the CIP to attract a "major cultural attraction" specifically to the Shipyards
5. Mayor's office and MOSH hold conversations behind the DIA's back that basically amount to "this $20 million is yours is you move across the river"
6. Shad Khan offers up another $5 million in private donations on his end
7. Related is like, "WTF?" The DIA is like, "WTF?"
8. The MOSH announces their move to the Shipyards
Don't personally have a strong feeling about the best location for the MOSH, just that the decision should have probably been made based on public input and a master plan for downtown, rather than shadow CIP dollars incentivizing them to abandon their former plan and move to the Shipyards.
In the spirit of clustering complementing uses in a compact setting, I do think there could have been some cool integration between Friendship Park/MOSH Genesis/and Related development with a nice pedestrian connection to the new Landing via the Main Street Bridge, but that ship has sailed
I think we'll see the Jags and City kick in addition millions in the coming years to bring this one home.
Quote from: jaxjags on December 17, 2021, 10:32:48 AM
For the amount of money Shad may owe Urban, he could have supplied the rest of the funding for the MOSH.
Jags have zero intention on giving Meyer another dime.
Legal team is hard at work.
Firing will be for cause, based on his cumulative gaffes in conduct and honesty throughout his tenure with the Jags.
No negotiating is the word on the street.
They don't want him getting ANYTHING.
GET OUT!!! AND YOU AIN'T GETTING NOT ONE PENNY, NOT EVEN A DIME!!!
At yesterday's DIA meeting, a Resolution was put forward that gives MOSH additional time to meet necessary fundraising goals and puts them on the clock for design and permitting of the project. The Resolution says MOSH has been diligently pursuing fundraising, but has been delayed in the design of the museum building itself. The original agreement (dated May 22, 2023) says that MOSH has to raise $40 million (excluding City contributions) for a total capital investment of $85 million. The $40 million was supposed to be raised by December, 2023.
The updated agreement says that MOSH has to have secured $30 million by February 29, 2024, $35 million by April 30, 2024, and $40 million by June 30, 2024. It says that failure to secure these amounts will not enable MOSH to commence construction by December 21, 2025 and will result in termination of the agreement. It says MOSH has to have commenced design of the Museum Project by June 30, 2024; completed Schematic Design and submitted plans by October 31, 2024; completed Design Development Phase and submitted plans to the City by March 31, 2025; completed 100% of construction drawings, and submitted all construction permits by September 30, 2025; commencement of construction by December 21, 2025; and completion by July 31, 2028.
From what I can deduce/speculate, MOSH has $30 million (excluding city contributions) already secured, hence the February 29, 2024 deadline for that amount; but the DIA wants to force fundraising of the remaining $10 million to happen quickly. I'm also guessing that the DIA thinks that the total capital cost of $85 million is possibly no longer realistic and wants to speed up the design process to get an answer on that question. Will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months on this one.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 26, 2021, 01:43:56 PM
Still committed. ~4 years to open, apparently.
MOSH CEO hopes to open new museum in late 2024
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/mosh-ceo-hopes-open-up-new-museum-late-2024/CDLVQTCGI5CRNEHSHUVSHJQKSM/
Bump. It's ridiculous to suggest that this would be open by late 2024, when it is now 2024 and this is nowhere close to being ready this year. It also notes that the anticipated price tag is $85 million (in early 2021). Using a simple inflation calculator, $85 million in January 2021 is now $100 million. Construction and labor costs have likely increased higher than standard CPI index, so you are likely looking at a number higher than $100 million.
It looks like this is another project at risk of dying.
This feels like Deegan is forcing this along. In a lot of ways, good: the biggest challenge we've had is things taking forever, which thereby kills the synergies between projects.
That said.... this seems like one that I could be supportive of some COJ funds. Not sure where these funds will come from - I hear the Jaguars are asking for a couple bucks - but if we can find it, I'd be down.
^ Agreed, as much as I'm not a fan of the cost, I think it'd be worthwhile to have the cohesive museum district along Bay. Maybe need to really hunt for potential grants. Or, hey, use the money saved from not giving incentives to Ford on Bay or the Riverfront Plaza tower. Either way, perhaps figuring out project phasing is in order.
Any chance at value engineering to save a few bucks?
VE-MOSH
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.containerkingsthailand.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F04%2FContainer-Home-Commercial-1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=1ec3be729b5bb9e809aa5a2cdef5b8197bb2552f9513545e8928981af4a112e4&ipo=images)
It's kind of astounding when you think about it. About eight years ago, one of the few vibrant, existing building blocks that downtown had was that tight cluster of complementing uses anchoring the Main Street Bridge on the Southbank. MOSH, with plans for a big redesign at its existing location. Friendship Park, with plans for a big redesign. And River City Brewing Company, though in need of a fresh coat of paint, as one of our few riverfront restaurants/bars. Yet we've somehow managed to demolish the restaurant, commit over $20 million dollars toward moving the MOSH to a contaminated parcel on the periphery of downtown with a half-demolished highway ramp wrapped around it, and essentially leave Friendship Park orphaned.
Why was this shift initially concocted (all Curry, btw, can't blame the DIA for this one)
1) To feed diners and shoppers into a Lot J project that was voted down by City Council
2) To create synergy with a USS Orleck museum that may not be sustainable long-term
It's just baffling how much money we're going to end up throwing at MOSH to essentially start over in a worse location.
This strange, Jacksonville-specific shell game of planning and subsidizing Fantasy Project 2 based on the unsubstantiated needs of Fantasy Project 1, again, speaks loudly to the need for a real master plan.
Big fan of MOSH, I hope their capital campaign bears plenty of fruit, but now that we know the scale is not going to be what we once initially thought, I personally wouldn't be heartbroken to see MOSH go back to their original plan of expanding their current Southbank location to interface directly with Friendship Park. That's a hell of a 1-2 punch anchoring the south side of the Main Street Bridge's pedestrian path opposite Riverfront Plaza and Laura Street to the north. And our $20 million+ in city contributions feel like they would stretch a lot further without having to subsidize remediation and new construction on the other side of the river.
Reminder of what the original plan looked like:
(https://observermediagroup.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2022/05/06/231121_standard.png)
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2022/05/06/231130_standard_t1100.jpeg?31a214c4405663fd4bc7e33e8c8cedcc07d61559)
(https://observermediagroup.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2022/05/06/231127_standard.png)
The City bears a lot of responsibility for this new predicament as I believe MOSH was all in on staying where they were with a much more modest and realistic plan to update and expand.
My theory.... is that Curry and Khan wanted to bridge Downtown to Lot J and the Four Seasons and have something active in between to keep too much riffraff from taking up the void. They twisted MOSH's arms and added an inducement of some City dollars and $5 million from Khan. The MOSH board buckled under the pressure and agreed to the Shipyards and a much more expensive and time consuming project.
To put things in perspective, few nonprofits in this City have raised $100 million or so from locals in a single campaign. UNF, JU and Baptist... can't think of anyone else. And, those are much larger nonprofits with bigger and wealthier constituencies. Asking MOSH to raise $10 million more in 4 months after struggling to raise $30 million over 3 years or so is a big ask. Can't say miracles can't happen, but...
Curry is gone but maybe Khan wants this bad enough to help further close the gap with an additional donation from him and a few calls to his friends.
I would also be curious, with a much larger and fancier building, what MOSH's economics are for maintaining and programming a much more expensive and extensive operation. I worry that they find themselves hanging with the Orleck people one day, biting off more than maybe than they can chew.
The idea of sinking money into the MOSH development but telling the Jags to piss off would be a mistake. For some reason we have an obsession with our trophy parcels being dedicated for public use. Fine, but you can't do that across the board & expect change DT by improving streets & parks.
The Jags are asking for a ton of money, I get that.. but we only have so many Billion dollar operations in town. The MOSH doesn't profit more than $5M a year in its current form & it's a 'non-profit' so those profits don't have anywhere to go. Also that parcel will literally never generate property tax revenue (along with the rest of our Northbank riverfront). The Jags/Stadium, at the very least, generates a ton of sales tax. They also aren't asking for one of the best parcels in our entire DT.
The MOSH has been a pipe dream for a while now... like the Doro, they expected more to be done by 2024. It will take another 3+ years before this opens. The collective waiting around for projects to start has cost the taxpayer more opportunity cost than any incentive package this city has seen. Simple math proves this.
My prediction is they will get another extension, the Construction Costs will be "higher than anticipated" and City Council will come in the figure out the delta. Shovel won't be in the dirt until late 2025.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 23, 2024, 12:23:23 AM
To put things in perspective, few nonprofits in this City have raised $100 million or so from locals in a single campaign. UNF, JU and Baptist... can't think of anyone else. And, those are much larger nonprofits with bigger and wealthier constituencies. Asking MOSH to raise $10 million more in 4 months after struggling to raise $30 million over 3 years or so is a big ask. Can't say miracles can't happen, but...
You may be right about the Khan/Curry connection, but I disagree with this take.
-Many donors to higher education that live in NE Fla opt to donate to UF, FSU, UGA, Michigan, or their alma mater or whatever school they have allegiance to. I would guess that NE Fla residents donate at least double to outside higher education institutions than they donate to UNF/JU. It may be well above double.
-IMO, MOSH should be the most high profile donation someone or a company can possibly make in NE Florida. Jax is relatively light on major museums to donate to. It's basically MOSH, Cummer, and MOCA. It's highly visible along the river, most families attend, kids go on field trips/summer camps there. It's ingrained into the fabric of Jax.
-I'm legitimately surprised that there hasn't been a major donor step up and donate $15 million plus for naming rights. The Frost Science Museum received a $35 million gift for naming rights back in 2011. The South Florida Science Center in WPB got $20 million in 2021 from the Cox family in 2021 for naming rights and just got $8 million from Ken Griffin (peanuts for him).
-Jax has a very well developed middle class, but does not have the type of wealth you have in South Florida, the Tampa Bay Area, SWFL, or in cities like Atlanta, Nashville, and Charlotte. While Jax doesn't have the type of wealth other cities have, the fact that Jax is struggling to raise $40 million for it's signature institution is honestly pretty shocking.
Quote from: CityLife on February 23, 2024, 09:21:44 AM
-Jax has a very well developed middle class, but does not have the type of wealth you have in South Florida, the Tampa Bay Area, SWFL, or in cities like Atlanta, Nashville, and Charlotte. While Jax doesn't have the type of wealth other cities have, the fact that Jax is struggling to raise $40 million for it's signature institution is honestly pretty shocking.
I think this is a big issue. For example, the reason Atlanta has an awesome aquarium is because Arthur Blank (Home Depot Co-Founder, Atlanta Falcons Owner) is not only loaded, but extremely charitable.
To add on to my above point, a similar process is happening at the Cox Science Museum in West Palm Beach (posted about earlier in thread too). They had initially started a $45 million dollar capital campaign well after MOSH started theirs, but with increased construction costs upped it from $45 million to $85 million in early 2023. They now have $80 million secured and had to increase the campaign to $115 million in late 2023. This is also a science museum that is tucked away in a city park, not close to the water or downtown. Not nearly as high profile as MOSH, and there are 2 other really good science museums within an hour.
The fact that they had to increase their capital campaign from $45 million to $115 million is all but confirmation that MOSH's capital costs are going to go up substantially or will have to be significantly value engineered.
Hopefully there is a hero out there in Jax that is ready to make an 8 figure donation soon. Otherwise, things look bad for MOSH. Like Ken suggested, they might have to pivot back to a remodel, which may not be the worst thing in the world. The good news is now there is a vacant parcel right next to it, that doesn't look to get built on anytime soon...
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 23, 2024, 12:23:23 AM
The City bears a lot of responsibility for this new predicament as I believe MOSH was all in on staying where they were with a much more modest and realistic plan to update and expand.
My theory.... is that Curry and Khan wanted to bridge Downtown to Lot J and the Four Seasons and have something active in between to keep too much riffraff from taking up the void. They twisted MOSH's arms and added an inducement of some City dollars and $5 million from Khan. The MOSH board buckled under the pressure and agreed to the Shipyards and a much more expensive and time consuming project.
100% what happened, though I don't think that much arm-twisting was needed when $20 million suddenly appeared in the CIP to "lure a cultural attraction to the Northbank." Plus the $5 million from Shad. Can't blame the DIA for this one. The deal was made behind their back, and they were blindsided and made to look like fools to Related, who were expecting their proposed development to have synergies with MOSH.
Quote from: CityLife on February 23, 2024, 09:35:13 AMHopefully there is a hero out there in Jax that is ready to make an 8 figure donation soon.
Though it's great that the Khans donated $5 million, and it's totally unfair to
expect them to give more, how much good will would they gain with the public going into stadium negotiations if they upped that check to $20 million? Slap their name on the building. Ensure a high-quality amenity near their Four Seasons investment. Would be a great legacy gift to the city.
I was told by someone within the downtown echo chamber that an individual had committed to donating the remainder of the private money if that amount was not reached by the end of 2024. This is someone who believes $8B in downtown development is imminent, so take it with a grain of salt. Curious to know if that person exists and had a change of heart due to a larger than expected financial gap between raised to date and $40M, or if they never existed at all.
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2024, 09:27:48 AM
Quote from: CityLife on February 23, 2024, 09:21:44 AM
-Jax has a very well developed middle class, but does not have the type of wealth you have in South Florida, the Tampa Bay Area, SWFL, or in cities like Atlanta, Nashville, and Charlotte. While Jax doesn't have the type of wealth other cities have, the fact that Jax is struggling to raise $40 million for it's signature institution is honestly pretty shocking.
I think this is a big issue. For example, the reason Atlanta has an awesome aquarium is because Arthur Blank (Home Depot Co-Founder, Atlanta Falcons Owner) is not only loaded, but extremely charitable.
I actually believe there are those among us who can write almost any size check if they are inclined to be philanthropic and are passionate for the cause. I think the former characteristic among our uber-wealthy residents isn't nearly as robust in Jax as in other places. A big donation here is $5 or $10 million, not $25 to $100 million. Yet, there are locals who have approached those levels of giving for nonprofits elsewhere over the decades, mainly universities and medical centers - although Ira Koger (who developed America's first office park in Jacksonville) did endow an arts center in South Carolina decades ago.
Wealthy people in Jax are not nearly as flashy, at least with their in-town life styles, as others in NY, LA or South Florida, but they are here in greater numbers than most locals realize.
I also see a trichotomy among our wealthy residents. There are a couple of hundred or so families that give to nearly everywhere, there are some very wealthy families* that rarely give to anything or anywhere close to their capacity to give and there is "new" money that is not being tapped because it hasn't been recognized by locals to-date. It is not much of a secret in the nonprofit world who is who among the first two and the latter takes more effort and time to uncover.
*I am convinced we have a number of billionaire families living here but they don't give like ones.
Speaking of philanthropists, Delores Barr Weaver just made some big contributions: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2024/02/24/jacksonville-area-nonprofits-get-61philanthropist-delores-barr-weaver-gives-61-million-to-nonprofits/72703915007/
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 23, 2024, 11:28:46 PM
Wealthy people in Jax are not nearly as flashy, at least with their in-town life styles, as others in NY, LA or South Florida, but they are here in greater numbers than most locals realize.
I also see a trichotomy among our wealthy residents. There are a couple of hundred or so families that give to nearly everywhere, there are some very wealthy families* that rarely give to anything or anywhere close to their capacity to give and there is "new" money that is not being tapped because it hasn't been recognized by locals to-date. It is not much of a secret in the nonprofit world who is who among the first two and the latter takes more effort and time to uncover.
*I am convinced we have a number of billionaire families living here but they don't give like ones.
I agree with all of the above.
Sprinkle list: MOSH money heads to Jacksonville for 'Genesis Project'
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/663321-mosh-genesis/
$5 million? Assuming that survives the veto pen it doesn't seem like a big enough dent.
Davis family just donated $1.5 mill. Jill Davis is part of the fundraising team.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 23, 2024, 11:28:46 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2024, 09:27:48 AM
Quote from: CityLife on February 23, 2024, 09:21:44 AM
-Jax has a very well developed middle class, but does not have the type of wealth you have in South Florida, the Tampa Bay Area, SWFL, or in cities like Atlanta, Nashville, and Charlotte. While Jax doesn't have the type of wealth other cities have, the fact that Jax is struggling to raise $40 million for it's signature institution is honestly pretty shocking.
I think this is a big issue. For example, the reason Atlanta has an awesome aquarium is because Arthur Blank (Home Depot Co-Founder, Atlanta Falcons Owner) is not only loaded, but extremely charitable.
I actually believe there are those among us who can write almost any size check if they are inclined to be philanthropic and are passionate for the cause. I think the former characteristic among our uber-wealthy residents isn't nearly as robust in Jax as in other places. A big donation here is $5 or $10 million, not $25 to $100 million. Yet, there are locals who have approached those levels of giving for nonprofits elsewhere over the decades, mainly universities and medical centers - although Ira Koger (who developed America's first office park in Jacksonville) did endow an arts center in South Carolina decades ago.
Wealthy people in Jax are not nearly as flashy, at least with their in-town life styles, as others in NY, LA or South Florida, but they are here in greater numbers than most locals realize.
I also see a trichotomy among our wealthy residents. There are a couple of hundred or so families that give to nearly everywhere, there are some very wealthy families* that rarely give to anything or anywhere close to their capacity to give and there is "new" money that is not being tapped because it hasn't been recognized by locals to-date. It is not much of a secret in the nonprofit world who is who among the first two and the latter takes more effort and time to uncover.
*I am convinced we have a number of billionaire families living here but they don't give like ones.
Jax has several wealthy families and some individually wealthy people. I can think of about 10 off the top of my head that can stroke a huge check to help push MOSH over the finish line, but by and large the Jax area doesn't have a fraction of the wealthy people of a NY, LA, or South Florida. There were 79 billionaires in Florida (Most in South Florida, with a few in Naples or Tampa Bay) last year and only Wayne Weaver lives in the Jax area. There are probably another 50-100 that have 2nd homes in South Florida or SWFL.
These areas don't just have the most ultra-wealthy billionaires either. There are exponentially more people with net worth's between $50 million-$1 billion. In the past couple years, there have been 122 homes in Dade County, 141 homes in Palm Beach County, and 37 homes in Collier County that have sold for more than the most expensive home ever sold in the area Jax ($22 million) and many of them are well over that. There have been 393 homes in Dade County, 457 in Palm Beach, and 183 in Collier County that sold for more than $10 million in the past few years. Duval County has had 0 homes sell for more than $10 million in that period and St. Johns County only 10.
As someone that grew up in Jax and knows the area well and now lives in South Florida, trust me when I say it is mind boggling how much money is down here compared to Jax.
That said, I'm still optimistic that one (or more) of Jax's heavy hitters can step up and get MOSH to the finish line. I just hope that the construction cost hasn't gone up too much.
Quote from: CityLife on March 07, 2024, 10:24:19 AMAs someone that grew up in Jax and knows the area well and now lives in South Florida, trust me when I say it is mind boggling how much money is down here compared to Jax.
Should it be mind boggling? South Florida is an internationally recognized metropolitan area five or six times larger than Jax. Miami is literally built with international drug and real estate money. No offense to any born and raised Jaxsons but Jax is a podunk country town in comparison from a numbers perspective. Any direct comparisons to South Florida on some of these things should have died back in the 1970s and 80s. South Florida aside, how do we compare to Memphis, Louisville, Providence, etc. and how are they able to get things done? We're closer in scale to those places than the largest urban areas in country.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2024, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 07, 2024, 10:24:19 AMAs someone that grew up in Jax and knows the area well and now lives in South Florida, trust me when I say it is mind boggling how much money is down here compared to Jax.
Should it be mind boggling? South Florida is an internationally recognized metropolitan area five or six times larger than Jax. Miami is literally built with international drug and real estate money. No offense to any born and raised Jaxsons but Jax is a podunk country town in comparison from a numbers perspective. Any direct comparisons to South Florida on some of these things should have died back in the 1970s and 80s. South Florida aside, how do we compare to Memphis, Louisville, Providence, etc. and how are they able to get things done? We're closer in scale to those places than the largest urban areas in country.
A lot of people that are not from Jax understand what you said, but I'm not sure a lot of natives do. The point was in response to Jaxlongtimer's theory that Jax has a lot more wealth than is led on. It really doesn't. If it did, the Cobra Kai house in Atlantic Beach would be worth $30-50 million, not $10 million.
Quote from: CityLife on March 07, 2024, 02:34:10 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2024, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 07, 2024, 10:24:19 AMAs someone that grew up in Jax and knows the area well and now lives in South Florida, trust me when I say it is mind boggling how much money is down here compared to Jax.
Should it be mind boggling? South Florida is an internationally recognized metropolitan area five or six times larger than Jax. Miami is literally built with international drug and real estate money. No offense to any born and raised Jaxsons but Jax is a podunk country town in comparison from a numbers perspective. Any direct comparisons to South Florida on some of these things should have died back in the 1970s and 80s. South Florida aside, how do we compare to Memphis, Louisville, Providence, etc. and how are they able to get things done? We're closer in scale to those places than the largest urban areas in country.
A lot of people that are not from Jax understand what you said, but I'm not sure a lot of natives do. The point was in response to Jaxlongtimer's theory that Jax has a lot more wealth than is led on. It really doesn't. If it did, the Cobra Kai house in Atlantic Beach would be worth $30-50 million, not $10 million.
Just because homes at the beach here are cheaper than South Florida doesn't mean there isn't money here. Prices at the beach are driven by the market and our beaches don't have the same demand/supply ratio that South Florida has. Someone at our beach may be able to afford a $50 million home but why pay it if that is not where the market is here. Also, a lot of money in South Florida is for second or more homes for foreigners. So much so, that laws have been passed to trace such buyers given concerns over money laundering, etc. These home buyers are not going to be donating to South Florida nonprofits much, if at all.
I would also take lists of billionaires with a grain of salt. Most on the list own big chunks of public companies so their wealth is more obvious. I can assure you that there are billionaires with private companies that are "invisible" to such lists and we have a few here for sure.
In that vein, too, most wealth in Jax is more low key than "flashy" South Florida. This was the gist of my original post. To be sure, no question, there is more money in South Florida by far, boosted by sheer numbers of people, COVID and the attraction to the wealthy of the South Florida lifestyle. But many of that ilk are now discovering NE Florida as viable option so we are "movin' on up" 8).
Florida, generally, is also adding wealth across the board from higher tax state residents liking our no-income-tax state. I just read an article that Delray Beach is now a hot area, for example, vs. traditional wealthy South Florida enclaves like Miami Beach and West Palm Beach.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 08, 2024, 01:49:50 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 07, 2024, 02:34:10 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2024, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 07, 2024, 10:24:19 AMAs someone that grew up in Jax and knows the area well and now lives in South Florida, trust me when I say it is mind boggling how much money is down here compared to Jax.
Should it be mind boggling? South Florida is an internationally recognized metropolitan area five or six times larger than Jax. Miami is literally built with international drug and real estate money. No offense to any born and raised Jaxsons but Jax is a podunk country town in comparison from a numbers perspective. Any direct comparisons to South Florida on some of these things should have died back in the 1970s and 80s. South Florida aside, how do we compare to Memphis, Louisville, Providence, etc. and how are they able to get things done? We're closer in scale to those places than the largest urban areas in country.
A lot of people that are not from Jax understand what you said, but I'm not sure a lot of natives do. The point was in response to Jaxlongtimer's theory that Jax has a lot more wealth than is led on. It really doesn't. If it did, the Cobra Kai house in Atlantic Beach would be worth $30-50 million, not $10 million.
Just because homes at the beach here are cheaper than South Florida doesn't mean there isn't money here. Prices at the beach are driven by the market and our beaches don't have the same demand/supply ratio that South Florida has. Someone at our beach may be able to afford a $50 million home but why pay it if that is not where the market is here. Also, a lot of money in South Florida is for second or more homes for foreigners. So much so, that laws have been passed to trace such buyers given concerns over money laundering, etc. These home buyers are not going to be donating to South Florida nonprofits much, if at all.
I would also take lists of billionaires with a grain of salt. Most on the list own big chunks of public companies so their wealth is more obvious. I can assure you that there are billionaires with private companies that are "invisible" to such lists and we have a few here for sure.
In that vein, too, most wealth in Jax is more low key than "flashy" South Florida. This was the gist of my original post. To be sure, no question, there is more money in South Florida by far, boosted by sheer numbers of people, COVID and the attraction to the wealthy of the South Florida lifestyle. But many of that ilk are now discovering NE Florida as viable option so we are "movin' on up" 8).
Florida, generally, is also adding wealth across the board from higher tax state residents liking our no-income-tax state. I just read an article that Delray Beach is now a hot area, for example, vs. traditional wealthy South Florid enclaves like Miami Beach and West Palm Beach.
You made my point for me. The Jax beaches/PVB don't have the same supply and demand as South Florida, because well, as I previously stated there are not nearly as many wealthy people in Jax or looking to move to Jax. The proof is in the data I have provided. Yes, there are people with plenty of money in Jax, but there simply aren't nearly as many of them. If there were, prime oceanfront homes would be considerably more expensive. You can read about how this works here: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/19/billionaires-are-driving-south-florida-home-prices-to-new-records-.html
You are also speculating quite a bit based on assumptions, not reality. The real world isn't a Pitbull music video or Miami Vice. Very few of the wealthy in South Florida live flashy lifestyles. Most of them live in super exclusive and low key places like Palm Beach, Indian Creek, Golden Beach, Manalapan, Jupiter Island, North Palm Beach, Tequesta, Fisher Island, Key Biscayne, Gulf Stream, and so on. And sure, there is some foreign money laundering in South Florida. After all, people aren't going to try and launder money in Dubuque, Iowa....but a great deal of the wealthy residents either live in South Florida full time or at minimum from November to April ("season") and most of them are Americans.
To your point on these people not donating to local causes, The Norton Museum in West Palm Beach launched a $60 million capital campaign in 2015. They ended up raising $110 million. The Kravits Center (West Palm Beach's Times Union Center) finished a $50 million expansion entirely from donations in 2019. The WPB Science Center has already raised $80 million and would have already raised $100 if they hadn't set the bar low on naming rights. Jupiter Medical Center just finished a $300 million capital campaign and met it easily. Fundraising will be substantially easier now based on the sheer number of wealthy people that have moved to South Florida full time.
We're really getting way off track here though...Back to Jax, there really aren't nearly as many people in Jax that can stroke a $5-10 million check as you seem to think, but there definitely are some. Hopefully they pull through. Whoever it is that makes a naming rights level of donation will go down as a legend forever in Jacksonville history.
^ Having been involved in a number of community initiatives that connect with wealthy people, there is more wealth here than is commonly known. And, as a percentage of our population, it is easily a solid 1%. 1% of a million population is 10,000. That should be reasonably adequate to raise more dollars here than what we see today. My only point in the end.
Billlionaires, huh? Sounds like it's time for a big ass wealth tax.
Decided to go and read the presentation from this week's community meeting (available here (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?share=EVeP9rIkdfxGtEYlYs8FsDMBGJ6OUcQnn4BMs0YsqJ962A&e=BgejlM__;!!JzAkRiGGxM5L!tjQVFONQGlDYCzMd0QEHRzrYYHFa-nVE3iQSbgN8BjpP__gqakfBp1kCueTHv9l603Ut45ic0ElcRw$)) and I noticed:
When did the city rename the area surrounding the MOSH site "Confluence Park"? Where did that name come from? Who decided on it? It's not a terrible name but it just seems strange that some things move so fast and other things don't.
Marcus, that's another example of the lack of coordination that our city agencies have towards their goals downtown. There is no leader in this plan, the DIA is far from it. When you look at that presentation (I wasn't there to be fair) it's hard to take it seriously. It's more accurate to say that most of these plans will change than those that won't. There are so many different agendas at work when you take it all in.
The focus at this point is to hope & pray that the projects like MOSH, infrastructure, and parks over DT make a difference in the eyes of private developers. An extremely risky game to say the least. I'd much rather see a smaller portion of DT focused on, with extremely intense incentives to make 10+ story construction possible. I don't see how we are out of the incentives world in the next decade (outside of Southbank & Brooklyn). We're gonna need a lot of parking for our MOSH 2.0 since people won't be walking there or using transit.
What's the purpose of relocating the MOSH if there isn't a well defined route to getting our DT out of the red anyway? The net benefit is surely negative when you consider the public funds & land. I'm sure it feels like something is happening & makes the DT #'s look good.
Surprise lifeline today. $10 million from CSX.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/entertainment/arts/2024/03/26/jacksonville-mosh-gets-10-million-csx-gift-new-museum/73093666007/
Kudos to CSX. How much more do they need to raise now?
^For context, looking back at CityLife's post:
Quote from: CityLife on February 22, 2024, 10:12:10 AM
At yesterday's DIA meeting, a Resolution was put forward that gives MOSH additional time to meet necessary fundraising goals and puts them on the clock for design and permitting of the project. The Resolution says MOSH has been diligently pursuing fundraising, but has been delayed in the design of the museum building itself. The original agreement (dated May 22, 2023) says that MOSH has to raise $40 million (excluding City contributions) for a total capital investment of $85 million. The $40 million was supposed to be raised by December, 2023.
The updated agreement says that MOSH has to have secured $30 million by February 29, 2024, $35 million by April 30, 2024, and $40 million by June 30, 2024. It says that failure to secure these amounts will not enable MOSH to commence construction by December 21, 2025 and will result in termination of the agreement. It says MOSH has to have commenced design of the Museum Project by June 30, 2024; completed Schematic Design and submitted plans by October 31, 2024; completed Design Development Phase and submitted plans to the City by March 31, 2025; completed 100% of construction drawings, and submitted all construction permits by September 30, 2025; commencement of construction by December 21, 2025; and completion by July 31, 2028.
From what I can deduce/speculate, MOSH has $30 million (excluding city contributions) already secured, hence the February 29, 2024 deadline for that amount; but the DIA wants to force fundraising of the remaining $10 million to happen quickly. I'm also guessing that the DIA thinks that the total capital cost of $85 million is possibly no longer realistic and wants to speed up the design process to get an answer on that question. Will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months on this one.
If they were at ~$30 million in February, got $5 million from the state (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36640.msg527953.html#msg527953) and $1.6 million from the Davis Family (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36640.msg527969.html#msg527969), CSX should put them at $46.6 million, which in theory satisfies the DIA's monetary requirements, but they still need to deal with design and then close the remaining financial gap to actually build the museum. Assuming costs are at $85 million (not sure how that could still be true), and including the city's $20 million (not including ancillary infrastructure investment) then that means they need to raise another $20 million or so.
^ When I win the $1.13Bn MegaMillions and/or the $0.865Bn PowerBall - I'll stroke a check.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 26, 2024, 09:59:02 PM
^For context, looking back at CityLife's post:
Quote from: CityLife on February 22, 2024, 10:12:10 AM
At yesterday's DIA meeting, a Resolution was put forward that gives MOSH additional time to meet necessary fundraising goals and puts them on the clock for design and permitting of the project. The Resolution says MOSH has been diligently pursuing fundraising, but has been delayed in the design of the museum building itself. The original agreement (dated May 22, 2023) says that MOSH has to raise $40 million (excluding City contributions) for a total capital investment of $85 million. The $40 million was supposed to be raised by December, 2023.
The updated agreement says that MOSH has to have secured $30 million by February 29, 2024, $35 million by April 30, 2024, and $40 million by June 30, 2024. It says that failure to secure these amounts will not enable MOSH to commence construction by December 21, 2025 and will result in termination of the agreement. It says MOSH has to have commenced design of the Museum Project by June 30, 2024; completed Schematic Design and submitted plans by October 31, 2024; completed Design Development Phase and submitted plans to the City by March 31, 2025; completed 100% of construction drawings, and submitted all construction permits by September 30, 2025; commencement of construction by December 21, 2025; and completion by July 31, 2028.
From what I can deduce/speculate, MOSH has $30 million (excluding city contributions) already secured, hence the February 29, 2024 deadline for that amount; but the DIA wants to force fundraising of the remaining $10 million to happen quickly. I'm also guessing that the DIA thinks that the total capital cost of $85 million is possibly no longer realistic and wants to speed up the design process to get an answer on that question. Will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months on this one.
If they were at ~$30 million in February, got $5 million from the state (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36640.msg527953.html#msg527953) and $1.6 million from the Davis Family (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36640.msg527969.html#msg527969), CSX should put them at $46.6 million, which in theory satisfies the DIA's monetary requirements, but they still need to deal with design and then close the remaining financial gap to actually build the museum. Assuming costs are at $85 million (not sure how that could still be true), and including the city's $20 million (not including ancillary infrastructure investment) then that means they need to raise another $20 million or so.
It might be possible for them to finance the last $20 million and pay it back with higher admission prices one would expect with a new and expanded facility plus increased other operating revenues such as renting out the facility for events (people are always looking for unique venues to party and this should fit that bill, especially adding the river frontage) and/or annual fundraising income.
MOSH confirmed today that they reached their $40M Goal!
^ Hot Damn!!! That's some great news Steve
Per News4Jax, the mayor's budget will have $50 million allocated for MOSH.
Pretty big news, if true.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/politics/2024/07/15/community-benefits-agreement-major-factor-as-mayor-deegan-presents-budget-to-city-council/
Cool. Let's get some of this long delayed stuff under construction. DT is going to be a dead construction zone for a few years but some big excitement could be within reach if many of these projects are completed around the same time.
Until Rory Diamond and the other hard-right Republicans get out their budget-cutting chainsaws. Diamond has already been quoted as saying he is voting against the budget.
He'll bother to show up for that.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 15, 2024, 02:12:56 PM
Until Rory Diamond and the other hard-right Republicans get out their budget-cutting chainsaws. Diamond has already been quoted as saying he is voting against the budget.
Voting against anything would require him to show up for a City Council meeting.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 15, 2024, 01:38:06 PM
Cool. Let's get some of this long delayed stuff under construction. DT is going to be a dead construction zone for a few years but some big excitement could be within reach if many of these projects are completed around the same time.
100% agree.
As previously stated, I'd love to work out the Sports & Entertainment district ASAP as well.
If we could get:
1) The new stadium (funded)
2) MOSH 2.0 (funded, if the budget passes)
3) Met Park (partially funded)
4) Shipyards West (funded)
5) The Flex Field event space (funded)
6) Sports & Entertainment District (not yet funded)
7) The Four Seasons (funded)
8) Jags office tower (funded)
All completed and opened in the same general timeframe, that would truly be a pretty insane win.
^Add APR being visibly revamped (with some initial COJ CBA funding), the Armada field, 121 Financial Ballpark improvements and the Doro to this list!
This doesn't sound good.
Quote
Jacksonville's Museum of Science & History plans to close its 61-year-old facility on the city's Southbank by Sept. 1 and remain shut until a new museum opens on the Northbank in possibly three years.
Museum officials say the closure will allow staff to prepare for the opening of the new museum on 2.5 acres of the Shipyards along East Bay Street. A groundbreaking is expected in 2026.
About 20% of the museum's 30-member team will remain on staff to handle exhibit design and continue fundraising, MOSH CEO Alistair Dove said Friday. Some will be needed for the transition and others to help decommission the current building, he said.
https://jaxtoday.org/2025/05/02/mosh-to-close-for-years-until-new-northbank-museum-opens/
This trend of closing kid related activities for 3 or more years is like a lifetime for children.
Odd. The existing facility is beyond tired though. I think they've been in deferred maintenance mode for a while now and maybe have hit the breaking point.
Wow, didn't expect to see this.
Wasn't one of the "plus" points for relocating MOSH that it wouldn't affect day-to-day operations, like expanding the current site?
This makes absolutely no sense. I can't understand why they would do this. It is not like the building they are in is falling down.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on May 02, 2025, 06:59:35 PM
This makes absolutely no sense. I can't understand why they would do this. It is not like the building they are in is falling down.
They are reducing staff from 30 to 6 and saying those remaining will be working toward the new museum.
Those 6 people are going to raise money, administrate the organization, plan out a 100,000 sf building costing $100 million, oversee its construction, continue to conduct off site programs and education for 3 years, develop and implement new exhibits, and maintain an existing collection? All, while likely working at nonprofit wages?
I don't see it either. One explanation I can think of is that they are running a negative P & L and are conserving resources hoping better days lie ahead in the new location. Alternatively, is there someone already in the wings to reuse the site pushing them out sooner than later?
They risk the community sidelining them if they close down for 3 years. A big risk. A shut down of 12 months to prepare for a move, maybe, but 3 years?
QuoteDaily Record: 2020 (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2020/oct/15/mosh-relocation-could-depend-on-metropolitan-park-shipyards-swap/)
Mosh reverses course; sets sights on Northbank
Fafard said the MOSH board of trustees is in full support of the proposal. He said the plan's central appeal is it will allow MOSH to continue operations at its Southbank facility through construction.
MOSH is consulting with architects and design firms but has not made a selection for the project.
Fafard said MOSH leadership was advised that disruption from renovations could have caused the museum to close for two years.
"By moving to the Northbank, that disruption is eliminated," Fafard said. "We're going to be able to continue to provide access to the community at this location. We're going to continue to expand our education programs and work collaboratively with the local school system. We're going to be able to continue to bring in traveling exhibits to benefit the community."
Classic Jacksonville.
The MOSH has a reasonable plan in place to expand their current footprint on the Southbank with MOSH 2.0, complementing work being down at Friendship Fountain/St. Johns Park and feeding the new restaurant proposed by Related next door.
City government gets involved, and lures the MOSH to the Northbank with promises of $20 million in cash and free property, in hopes of bolstering foot traffic to an unapproved Lot J project that eventually falls apart. Related (and the DIA) is caught blindsided by the move, and the Related projects subsequently falls apart as well.
Fundraising is slower than expected, deadlines are missed, and $20 million in public funding becomes $50 million in public funding, and a 120,000 square foot museum becomes "no smaller than 75,000 sf," which is smaller than what currently exists on the Southbank.
Design deadlines are missed.
And now - after hearing for years how the museum will remain operational to local students and the community during the construction project - MOSH is closing for THREE YEARS.
And:
1. Rehoming their animals and live exhibits to other zoos (particularly shameful, IMO)
2. Failing to refund membership purchases
3. Firing 75% of their staff
4. Surrendering their existing building to the city in September 2026
There is a very real possibility that this ends with the MOSH closing and being demolished, and the new MOSH failing to materialize.
Other questions:
1. How is the 8-member Executive staff being paid for the next three years absent operating income? Let's call that $3 million in salary/benefits? Is the MOSH going to dip into donor dollars intended for the new museum to pay salaries?
2. Are you really telling me that, after five years of planning for a Northbank move, you need to take THREE YEARS OFF to dedicate your staff full-time to planning your new museum?
3. How are you going to pay to store all of the museum's collection & contents offsite, as mentioned, for three years?
This is a very, very sad disservice to the local Jacksonville community that depends on MOSH for field trips & STEM-based education at a time where we really need it here in the city.
Literally the ONLY way you could possibly justify this is if the MOSH was
bleeding money in its current location.
If yes, it's probably something they should have shared with City Council before asking for $50 million and a 40-year, $1 ground lease.
Willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but you owe the public more of a explanation if you're going to go against your word and close for years.
This seems like a really terrible idea. This is 3+ years (at minimum) that Jacksonville will be without a science museum for the children of this city. What are the odds the new one even opens in 2028?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 02, 2025, 10:51:03 PM
QuoteDaily Record: 2020 (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2020/oct/15/mosh-relocation-could-depend-on-metropolitan-park-shipyards-swap/)
Mosh reverses course; sets sights on Northbank
Fafard said the MOSH board of trustees is in full support of the proposal. He said the plan's central appeal is it will allow MOSH to continue operations at its Southbank facility through construction.
MOSH is consulting with architects and design firms but has not made a selection for the project.
Fafard said MOSH leadership was advised that disruption from renovations could have caused the museum to close for two years.
"By moving to the Northbank, that disruption is eliminated," Fafard said. "We're going to be able to continue to provide access to the community at this location. We're going to continue to expand our education programs and work collaboratively with the local school system. We're going to be able to continue to bring in traveling exhibits to benefit the community."
Classic Jacksonville.
The MOSH has a reasonable plan in place to expand their current footprint on the Southbank with MOSH 2.0, complementing work being down at Friendship Fountain/St. Johns Park and feeding the new restaurant proposed by Related next door.
City government gets involved, and lures the MOSH to the Northbank with promises of $20 million in cash and free property, in hopes of bolstering foot traffic to an unapproved Lot J project that eventually falls apart. Related (and the DIA) is caught blindsided by the move, and the Related projects subsequently falls apart as well.
Fundraising is slower than expected, deadlines are missed, and $20 million in public funding becomes $50 million in public funding, and a 120,000 square foot museum becomes "no smaller than 75,000 sf," which is smaller than what currently exists on the Southbank.
Design deadlines are missed.
And now - after hearing for years how the museum will remain operational to local students and the community during the construction project - MOSH is closing for THREE YEARS.
And:
1. Rehoming their animals and live exhibits to other zoos (particularly shameful, IMO)
2. Failing to refund membership purchases
3. Firing 75% of their staff
4. Surrendering their existing building to the city in September 2026
There is a very real possibility that this ends with the MOSH closing and being demolished, and the new MOSH failing to materialize.
Other questions:
1. How is the 8-member Executive staff being paid for the next three years absent operating income? Let's call that $3 million in salary/benefits? Is the MOSH going to dip into donor dollars intended for the new museum to pay salaries?
2. Are you really telling me that, after five years of planning for a Northbank move, you need to take THREE YEARS OFF to dedicate your staff full-time to planning your new museum?
3. How are you going to pay to store all of the museum's collection & contents offsite, as mentioned, for three years?
This is a very, very sad disservice to the local Jacksonville community that depends on MOSH for field trips & STEM-based education at a time where we really need it here in the city.
Literally the ONLY way you could possibly justify this is if the MOSH was bleeding money in its current location.
If yes, it's probably something they should have shared with City Council before asking for $50 million and a 40-year, $1 ground lease.
Willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but you owe the public more of a explanation if you're going to go against your word and close for years.
Someone needs to ask or entertain these questions and concerns to Dr. Alistair Dove, the CEO of MOSH Jax. Oh, and not that it matters or should be taken into account, but HE is an Australian-American.
Quote from: copperfiend on May 03, 2025, 09:10:25 AM
This seems like a really terrible idea. This is 3+ years (at minimum) that Jacksonville will be without a science museum for the children of this city. What are the odds the new one even opens in 2028?
Zero. It sounds like the museum is done. A real shame since that place was mind-blowing when I was a kid in the 80s.
Much of the problem likely stems from Curry's administration forcing MOSH to relocate rather than enhance their current location. Imagine what nearly $100 million could do for the current spot plus maybe leaving an endowment for ongoing support. This wasn't MOSH's plan, it was Curry's. Like removing the Landing, another half-baked idea to appease special or his own interests, not serve the community.
Curry's legacy is going to be one of failures to accomplish anything and leaving behind a host of problems for future mayors. Trump's legacy is likely to be the same or worse. Serving special and/or self-serving interests and taking a hatchet to every problem without any due diligence, carefulness, thoughtfulness, collaboration, transparency or compromise most certainly leads to these outcomes.
Mind-blowing to my daughter who is three.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on May 04, 2025, 08:44:14 PM
Mind-blowing to my daughter who is three.
She (your Daughter), understands what is going on with MOSH at 3 years old? Man...they sure grow up fast nowadays...TOO FAST.
She loved the dinosaur exhibit.
It's been my impression over the years that Jax's local philanthropy for capital projects/museums, etc. has always been low, even very low compared to other cities. The TU PAC is the only exception that I can recall. Cummer seems to do ok, but nothing else comes to mind for private support of public enhancements.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 02, 2025, 06:21:06 PM
Wasn't one of the "plus" points for relocating MOSH that it wouldn't affect day-to-day operations, like expanding the current site?
exactly
Is there anything we can do as citizens to change this? Are there going to be any public meetings anyone's aware of?
Can't really force a private non-profit to stay open no matter how many citizens say they want it to. Huge failure on their part to not be able to stay open while preparing to move into a brand new facility in a new location...
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on May 04, 2025, 08:44:14 PM
Mind-blowing to my daughter who is three.
Took my nephew there 7 or 8 years ago and he liked it....though half the interactive exhibits were broken.
Jax needs a science museum. It has always needed a better one but to close the only one in town is really embarrassing. A question of money and priorities I guess but that's Jacksonville all over. It's Easier Here.
MOSH is positioning it publicly to the effect of, "We'd rather focus our funding and resources on the new museum, rather than on the existing museum that has outlived its useful life." Which is ultimately their choice, but is also information that absolutely should have been disclosed in advance.
Hindsight is obviously 20/20, but for a project requiring this much public money ($50 million in MOSH's case, along with a 40-year, $1 land lease that the anti-Gateway crowd seems perfectly fine with), MOSH really should have held some public workshops/huddles with the community like the Jags did to allow taxpayers to raise such questions.
Certainly feels like they hid this information about a three-year closure just long enough to get their $50 million and their land deal prior to sweeping the rug out from under their employees (who were blindsided, some of whom have been working there for 20+ years) and out from under the local community.
Hope it works out in the long-run, but history doesn't speak well in Jacksonville to situations of closing/demolition the old thing in hopes that the new thing works out.
Bruce Fafard, the prior MOSH CEO, had a horrible reputation as CEO of 121 Financial when I worked there, in which many employees felt his poor decision making and planning ultimately led to its merger with VyStar, and all the while VyStar and Community 1st continued to grow, 121 stayed stagnant. Unfortunately, this was my first thought when hearing about MOSH. Granted, he's no longer the CEO of MOSH but I wonder if lack of a prior stable plan when the museum was first seeking to expand, led up to this decision.
The images you've seen on the renderings are probably the 3rd or 4th redesign because the design is too expensive, and the current iteration that you've seen on the renderings was over budget as well by like $80m. So, MOSH was looking to fire DLR Group/Kasper (DLR did the design and Kasper was brought in to produce the construction documents) because they couldn't produce a design that was within their budget, and I think they ended up hiring SmithGroup. I believe SmithGroup also selected a local architect to produce the CDs, but I'm not sure who.
I don't know how they're planning on shaving off ~$80m, especially if they're dishing out another chunk of change for another redesign, but I'm finding it difficult to believe the final result is going to be much better than their current facility. I get it if they're moving their facility for a much larger and better museum, but so far it sounds like it'll be a one-for-one move...
Our firm was a part of another team that didn't get selected for a redesign, and the total contract for both firms, civil, landscape, engineering, etc, was somewhere below ~$3m for design, construction documents, and CA. I don't know what SmithGroup's contract looked like, but I remember it being more. DLR Group's contract was also more than SmithGroup's.
Is this the case of a client demanding a $100 million dream with a $50 million budget?
Meanwhile here in Gainesville we're upgrading the Florida Museum of Natural History for $30 million and a one-year closure...
https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/2024/12/23/florida-museum-at-uf-to-close-in-march-for-construction-project/77026716007/
Gainesville runs laps around Jacksonville when it comes to museum offerings.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 07, 2025, 03:44:09 PM
Is this the case of a client demanding a $100 million dream with a $50 million budget?
Not necessarily. From what I've heard second-hand, it's more of if someone else were putting together the schedule of values for the project, it would be half the price.
The reality here is that the city has found a way to burn through a ton of money in the pursuit of gaining some prestige. There are so many issues with the MOSH project, it's hard to know where to start.
1). The MOSH's current footprint is in a great submarket with room to expand. The structure is also basically a massive shell, so not sure why the existing footprint was totally written off. Classic example of the American culture.
2). The MOSH will cost the taxpayers exceptionally more money than the $50M grant. The MOSH is another 2 acres of Riverfront that will never earn considerable city revenue. Considering the immense capital investment by the taxpayer to this immediate area, you have to question the merits behind the countless city-funded projects adjacent to this site.
3). The MOSH will create long-term liabilities for the tax payer. First off, there is absolutely no way this project comes in at budget & the comments by DES only reinforce that. Secondly, the tax payer is on the hook to recover more than 450 parking spaces as outlined in the Jags Parking Agreement. So either Kahn is going to be a good guy or the taxpayer now needs to find 450 parking spaces next to the Stadium.
4). Did any genius think, hmm around stadium events, traffic becomes a nightmare on Bay & surrounding roads. When do families typically like to enjoy their off time? So, there are several weekends out of the year where going to this will be very inconvenient. (FYI, the Jags play almost every game on Sunday at 1pm - maybe that could change lol.)
All-in-all, the taxpayer is getting absolutely raked on this one once again. And yet all I hear about is complaining from the powers that be about $8M or whatever to get UF to town? What are we actually doing here because this really gives off JV vibes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/council-members-worry-parking-plan-for-new-mosh-will-discourage-visits/ar-AA1RyaBu?uxmode=ruby&ocid=edgdhpruby&pc=U531&cvid=692f08d3ba7e460ab0d52ca655b7dc0c&ei=9
We really haven't thought this whole thing through, and it shows we have no comprehensive plan here.
While I don't think the walk from the Arena garage is that bad distance-wise....it's not a great walk because of how we chose to develop around the former Hart Bridge ramps - it's awful.
Finally - and this is something I've asked many times: For events at the Arena or Ballpark, why do we not just raise the ticket prices by $3-4, and making parking wide open in those garages?
Quote from: Steve on December 02, 2025, 10:48:04 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/council-members-worry-parking-plan-for-new-mosh-will-discourage-visits/ar-AA1RyaBu?uxmode=ruby&ocid=edgdhpruby&pc=U531&cvid=692f08d3ba7e460ab0d52ca655b7dc0c&ei=9
We really haven't thought this whole thing through, and it shows we have no comprehensive plan here.
While I don't think the walk from the Arena garage is that bad distance-wise....it's not a great walk because of how we chose to develop around the former Hart Bridge ramps - it's awful.
Finally - and this is something I've asked many times: For events at the Arena or Ballpark, why do we not just raise the ticket prices by $3-4, and making parking wide open in those garages?
Seems like the U2C would be able to shuffle people back and forth between the parking garage and museum. Easier than navigating Bay Street and all the other hypothetical extensions it's supposed to handle.
(If it ever works as intended)
^ Heh, I came here to suggest the U2C could shuttle between the VyStar garage and MOSH.
Depending on where on Lot X the MOSH entrance will be, it is about 1200 feet from the closest garage to MOSH. This includes walking from a midpoint of the garage, and that the elevator/stairs are in the SE (APR/Adams) corner.
After exiting the garage and crossing Adams Street, a MOSH pedestrian would have about 100 feet of the D'Oro Garage ramp, then about 220 feet along the side of the D'Oro Garage. Will this frontage along A Philip Randolph have commercial activation, or is it just the side of the garage?
After crossing Forsyth Street, there is the 170 feet or so of the Manifest/Intuition block.
Then come two crossings of Bay Street, the second of which - for eastbound traffic - does not have a traffic signal. Or, it didn't in March 2025 when StreetView was captured. And you are still over 100 feet from the front door.
ETA ParkWhiz webpage - https://www.parkwhiz.com/vystar-veterans-memorial-arena-parking/?seller_id=1347
According to the ParkWhiz (!) site, the VyStar Arena Garage at Adams and APR is only open for Events at Sports Complex facilities. Will the City, or its contractor, want to open the garage for the possibility of a few dozen cars a day for MOSH? Will they have non-event pricing, so families can afford to use it? Does (or will) this garage have an attendant, or is it all pay by card?
Of course, the return trip will be worse, after having walked around MOSH for an hour, or two, or more.
^If JTA had a robust Downtown circulating bus service/shuttle, this issue would be easy to fix. There are several City garages that it could pass by plus some private lots offering multiple options for Mosh visitors. However, we have no such service for this or for any other reason to get around Downtown in bad weather or for extended distances.
We are so far off the beaten path in setting Downtown straight... and to see us waste time and huge dollars on the U2C when we can't even address basic bus service for Downtown that most any city has, including ones much smaller than Jax. It is 101 to do.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 02, 2025, 02:15:04 PMWe are so far off the beaten path in setting Downtown straight... and to see us waste time and huge dollars on the U2C when we can't even address basic bus service for Downtown that most any city has, including ones much smaller than Jax. It is 101 to do.
Proposed new series for the Jaxson:
I'm smaller than Jax and I have a functional downtown bus loop.
Quote from: Steve on December 02, 2025, 10:48:04 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/council-members-worry-parking-plan-for-new-mosh-will-discourage-visits/ar-AA1RyaBu?uxmode=ruby&ocid=edgdhpruby&pc=U531&cvid=692f08d3ba7e460ab0d52ca655b7dc0c&ei=9
The estimated cost of the new museum building is $106 million for the latest conceptual design. On top of that, the expense of creating the exhibits for the museum is in the range of $25 to $35 million. The total cost adds up to roughly $131 million to $141 million, an amount that could change as design continues.
MOSH so far has raised $95 million in taxpayer support and private gifts. MOSH board Chair Jill Davis told City Council members on Dec. 1 the fundraising campaign is working on securing the additional money.
Seems a little troubling that the museum has a funding gap of over $40 million, City Council has already told them not to come back after approving the $50 million they've already given MOSH, and despite closing down and leaving themselves contractually unable to move back into their old building, MOSH has seemingly raised $0 in the last 7 months, after reporting in early May that they were at $95 million in funds raised. Hopefully some additional money comes in from the state and/or some local corporations are willing to buy naming rights to exhibits/wings.
Jokes about buses aside, we do seem to have a bit of a looming parking crisis happening in that area, which is ironic given just how much parking exists. I still don't think there's enough designated parking for the Four Seasons/office development, and I don't think many families are going to be willing to take that trek from the Sports Complex garages more than once, or consider visiting in inclement weather. There are 60 parking spots being added to Metro Park as part of the redesign that would be closer than the garages, but if I'm the city, I might begrudgingly consider contributing $5 million for those 70 spots. We saw with the Landing what happened when we built the thing without the on-site parking.
Engineers of the world, we know the "High Line" idea was half-baked, but is there any universe where those god-awful, redundant ramps could be repurposed for parking and pedestrian use? It's essentially 1,000 feet of four-lane superstructure in the main chunk. Bike and pedestrian walking/exit path on the river side exiting at both MOSH/Shipyards on one side and near Ford on Bay on the other and potentially connecting with that loop of Emerald Trail, one travel lane going south to north, and then angled or parallel parking spots running the length of the travel lane. Could probably squeeze 80-100 cars onto that god awful thing if the width is there. COMPLETELY aware that it's potentially a stupid idea. But hey, so was leaving the ramps up.
(https://snipboard.io/6NuOZG.jpg)
Pull the ramps down. There's no way they are legit serving a traffic purpose.
I recognize it's not free (And recognize you'd need to get in Maxwell House's Property for some of it), but for the parts on COJ land get rid of them.
It's wild that a city the size of Jacksonville does not currently have a science museum and won't for the foreseeable future.
Quote from: copperfiend on December 02, 2025, 06:41:38 PM
It's wild that a city the size of Jacksonville does not currently have a science museum and won't for the foreseeable future.
Another part of Curry's failed legacy... tore down the Landing and pushed MOSH to relocate to the Northbank when they already had other plans for their Southbank location... all with no game plan on what was to come next or how to pay for it all. Add his failed attempt to sell JEA and his kick-the-can-down-the-road pension "reform." Left lots of messes for others to clean up.... while he bashes the current mayor and tries to burnish his own ego in the process. Possibly our worst mayor in modern times.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 02, 2025, 09:38:13 PM
Quote from: copperfiend on December 02, 2025, 06:41:38 PM
It's wild that a city the size of Jacksonville does not currently have a science museum and won't for the foreseeable future.
Another part of Curry's failed legacy... tore down the Landing and pushed MOSH to relocate to the Northbank when they already had other plans for their Southbank location... all with no game plan on what was to come next or how to pay for it all. Add his failed attempt to sell JEA and his kick-the-can-down-the-road pension "reform." Left lots of messes for others to clean up.... while he bashes the current mayor and tries to burnish his own ego in the process. Possibly our worst mayor in modern times.
The shell game under Curry was insane. MOSH (and Welcome to Rockville) moved based on a Lot J development that wasn't even approved. Sleiman was forced out and the Landing was demolished, based on the same, plus petty payback for Sleiman's endorsement of Alvin Brown. The Hart Bridge ramps came down, but only in Khan's district, based on a Shipyards plan that never came to fruition as planned. Convention Center RFP was railroaded based on a phantom Jags proposal. The U2C was sold based on Curry's smoke and mirrors. Throw in JEA, the drunk tweets wanting to fist fight council members, and the wishy-washiness on the HRO, and I do believe you may have a case for the worst mayor of the last 50 years.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 02, 2025, 01:24:13 PM
According to the ParkWhiz (!) site, the VyStar Arena Garage at Adams and APR is only open for Events at Sports Complex facilities. Will the City, or its contractor, want to open the garage for the possibility of a few dozen cars a day for MOSH? Will they have non-event pricing, so families can afford to use it? Does (or will) this garage have an attendant, or is it all pay by card?
The answer to this one is yes, that's currently the plan. DIA spoke about that at the city council committee meetings this week. The garages are underused as it is.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 02, 2025, 10:25:25 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 02, 2025, 01:24:13 PM
According to the ParkWhiz (!) site, the VyStar Arena Garage at Adams and APR is only open for Events at Sports Complex facilities. Will the City, or its contractor, want to open the garage for the possibility of a few dozen cars a day for MOSH? Will they have non-event pricing, so families can afford to use it? Does (or will) this garage have an attendant, or is it all pay by card?
The answer to this one is yes, that's currently the plan. DIA spoke about that at the city council committee meetings this week. The garages are underused as it is.
Makes sense. Has there been any discussion about making the garages free, and just adding 3-4 bucks onto the price of a shrimp/arena ticket? I think this would help the bars and restaurants that are there, and could be a catalyst for someone wanting to develop the ground floor space on the Arena garage. Plus, it would simplify matters like this.
Also I am reading the estimate on pricing is closer to $135 million+ now?
This is still the reduced scale one with the less inspiring design? I feel like for that price we should be getting a Sally Dark Ride.
Well that's not a great sign.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jan/08/museum-of-science-history-ceo-alistair-dove-resigns/
Oof, MOSH is cooked. A city of over 1 million people and no science museum for the foreseeable future.
The priority for a CEO of a nonprofit is to be a proficient fundraiser. Programming and operations in a larger nonprofit like MOSH needs to be handled one level down. It would appear from the article that this may not have been the setup at MOSH. Given their need to raise more dollars, I could see how they might need to move on to a CEO that can facilitate raising money, first and foremost.
At this point, due to time constraints, I would suggest they need to hire a well connected and respected Jax citizen that can jump in and immediately restore their credibility with donors and elected leaders to pull in the remaining dollars.
Lori Boyer's free these days, isn't she?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 08, 2026, 05:14:38 PM
The priority for a CEO of a nonprofit is to be a proficient fundraiser. Programming and operations in a larger nonprofit like MOSH needs to be handled one level down. It would appear from the article that this may not have been the setup at MOSH. Given their need to raise more dollars, I could see how they might need to move on to a CEO that can facilitate raising money, first and foremost.
At this point, due to time constraints, I would suggest they need to hire a well connected and respected Jax citizen that can jump in and immediately restore their credibility with donors and elected leaders to pull in the remaining dollars.
Maybe this is it. Just not the right fit for MOSH's needs at the moment. Hoping it doesn't portend larger issues with the 90% designs coming due. Call me an optimist, but I think MOSH will eventually find a way to pull it off. Was just reading through some of their past financial statements expecting the worse, and they actually seem like a very solid, healthy business. Salaries are lean relative revenues. No crazy outsourcing for fundraising. $10 million+ in liquid assets (non-grants) while carrying almost no debt. Margins over 25%, typically over $1 million a year. Biggest mystery to me is why close a profitable (at least as of 2 years ago/latest available numbers) museum with a sweatheart lease and lay off all that staff when you're three years away from opening in a best case scenario.
Seems like the state will likely chip in another $7.5 million, which should pretty much cover the cost of the building, leaving the new leadership group with $30 to $40 million to raise to build the actual exhibits. Would be a GREAT opportunity for a guy like Shad Khan to truly leave a legacy behind for Jacksonville. $20 million, and we call it the Khan Museum of Science and History. He can look out at it from his penthouse. It's a lot, but to a guy with $13 billion in assets, it's roughly the equivalent of a donor with $1 million in assets giving $1,500. They're sponsoring Met Park, he's got his Four Seasons and new stadium. Would essentially to be helping to tie a bow on the Shipyards vision he first brought forth nearly a decade ago.
I met their CEO at the final day of MOSH operations. He gave a great and inspiring talk about the future of the museum. Maureen is awesome too and I have no doubt will do a great job interim. She also is already in development/fundraising I think.
I will say this feels....weird. Like the rug is about to get pulled out underneath us. I hope I am wrong, but it just feels like so much has gone wrong that wasn't expected.
Quote from: Jankelope on January 09, 2026, 08:44:28 AMI will say this feels....weird. Like the rug is about to get pulled out underneath us.
I sure hope not. Current estimates for the building are $106 million ($102 million if they get their way with parking reduction). They've got $95 million committed from the state, city, and private donors. Another $8 million should be coming from the state. For the ~$35 million cost for exhibits, the board claims that they've identified another $80 million in potential donations to aggressively target. I do believe it's doable, particularly when you start to talk about corporate naming rights for exhibits, and I can't believe there's a universe where the city doesn't end up tossing in another $10 million or so to get it across the finish line.
But I do agree that something has seemed off since the abrupt, unexpected closure of the Southbank museum. At the time, the claim was that it would allow them to do better community education and outreach. Might be true, but their social media also went completely dark in August. Not a word publicly from MOSH in nearly 5 months. That's strange.
I feel like there may be some behind the scenes drama that we don't know about. I still don't really buy that closing the southbank museum allows them to "fully focus on the new location." With the CEO leaving, that feels more hollow than ever. What was the real reason for closing a perfectly good museum (with an AMAZING exhibit with Currents of Time)?
Does it have to do with something the city wants to do with that building ASAP that we haven't yet become privy to? Giving it to related?
New theory. Maybe there's some sort of time warp or time-space anomaly on the south bank. Friendship fountain was closed for years. Rivers Edge or Healthy Town or whatever it's called took over a decade to go anywhere. Still waiting for something to go up at River City Brewing Co. and now MOSH is primed to sit empty for years.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on January 09, 2026, 04:23:49 PM
New theory. Maybe there's some sort of time warp or time-space anomaly on the south bank. Friendship fountain was closed for years. Rivers Edge or Healthy Town or whatever it's called took over a decade to go anywhere. Still waiting for something to go up at River City Brewing Co. and now MOSH is primed to sit empty for years.
LOL, I think you could say much of the same about the Northbank/North Core until Deegan came in, and to some extent, can still say it in pockets. Jax urban core has been in a time warp since WWII ended, for the most part. Ironically, and sadly, that hasn't done much to save our historic buildings that might add further to that perception.
This is good news for the Southbank, friendship fountain, former MOSH area:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jan/12/downtown-jacksonville-south-bank-residences-in-permit-review-at-150-million/?fbclid=IwZnRzaAPR0v5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeDm1fqYSALxMcOJWoes3ztYxTfmJ1tlU5lJyPU-orLMEWPBW1apQeTA0hzdw_aem_BrW667If4EquyibH76gWcg
I don't understand how you apply for a permit without a contractor listed though... interesting
Fingers crossed this project crosses the finish line within the next 2-3 years.
Quote from: Jones518 on January 12, 2026, 08:16:08 AM
This is good news for the Southbank, friendship fountain, former MOSH area:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jan/12/downtown-jacksonville-south-bank-residences-in-permit-review-at-150-million/?fbclid=IwZnRzaAPR0v5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeDm1fqYSALxMcOJWoes3ztYxTfmJ1tlU5lJyPU-orLMEWPBW1apQeTA0hzdw_aem_BrW667If4EquyibH76gWcg
I don't understand how you apply for a permit without a contractor listed though... interesting
Fingers crossed this project crosses the finish line within the next 2-3 years.
I think, if I am not mistaken, that this is the Related Group Development at the old River City Brewing site. I read somewhere, about a month ago, that they are getting ready, very very soon after the first of the year, to turn dirt.
^ Right. The linked article says just that in the 2nd paragraph
Quote
The two residential towers of 25 and eight stories with an attached parking garage are planned at 835 Museum Circle on the Downtown Jacksonville Southbank where the River City Brewery restaurant closed five years ago and was demolished.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 12, 2026, 03:32:59 PM
^ Right. The linked article says just that in the 2nd paragraph
Quote
The two residential towers of 25 and eight stories with an attached parking garage are planned at 835 Museum Circle on the Downtown Jacksonville Southbank where the River City Brewery restaurant closed five years ago and was demolished.
Didn't mean to offend you or anything; it's just that I didn't read the article; just went along with the statement(s) in the post. And yes, you are right!
Why is the city trying to demolish the old MOSH building???!!??!
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jan/13/city-seeking-to-demolish-closed-southbank-mosh/
Can we wait for a few more development on the Southbank first before anymore demolition? WTF!!!!!
Have we not learned our lesson yet?!
To provide a clean slate for park or private development?
Booo!
Jacksonville loves jumping the gun...
Unless there's some secretive plan in place with Related, which there should not be without public input, this might be the most blatant red flag I've seen for the new DIA CEO.
1) Using the DIA's limited funds to tear down a beloved, functional building
2) While citing, without evidence, that the building "cannot be salvaged," despite the fact that it was fully open to the public just four months ago
3) To add temporary surface parking, and "future development"
4) With a six month or less target to have it demolished and paved over
HAS ANYONE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO HOW WELL THIS STRATEGY HAS WORKED FOR JACKSONVILLE OVER THE LAST FIFTY YEARS, or even ten???
We demolished the Old Courthouse and Annex for Future Development. We demolished the old Grayhound Station for future development. We demolished the Ford Factory for future development. We demolished the Berkman 2 for future development. We demolished the Landing for future development. We demolished River City Brewing for future development. We sank a full city block into the river for future development. We demolished Kids Campus and the Met Park bandshell for future development.
Definition of insanity would be to quickly tear down the MOSH, without discussing other cultural uses for the building, for short term parking and speculative future development, using DIA's limited budget, when MOSH still doesn't have a finalized plan for the Northbank.
It's astounding how much of our urban fabric we've leveled, and how many hundreds of millions of dollars we've spent to SUBTRACT from our urban landscape.
Absolutely zero reason this building needs to come down without a concrete plan for the site, a signed development agreement, and a use case that complements the park.
I haven't read the article but I have to say demolishing that building is pretty short sighted and flat out......dumb.
I can give you $835,000 reasons why that public money is better off being spent elsewhere in downtown in the short term. No offense to anyone, as I like the people there, but the DIA doesn't have any staff qualified to know if a building is salvageable for reuse. I'm not aware of a registered architect or structural engineer on staff and even if they were, that's a decision one person should not be making alone with a public facility. In the historic preservation world, we're witnessing reuse of structures that are actually in danger of collapsing. MOSH is likely more structurally solid that most of the new stick frame buildings popping up all over the urban core. Would not be surprised if there's something cooking behind closed doors that facilitates this move. Otherwise, there's no real reason to rush.
There's no way the city is serious considering this...i cannot believe it. It's becoming harder and harder to be a fan of current leadership, DIA, city council, and the mayors office... I'm immensely disappointed!
I am speculating that MOSH vacated the building and the CEO was motivated to resign as a result because the City wanted all along to take over this property ASAP and demolish the building. No way it can be in as bad a shape as the City says. Odd that MOSH planned to continue using the building until Curry pushed them to the Northbank. Obviously, MOSH saw a future for this building and they should know it best.
LOL, we think the Skyway is worth saving but not this building? Upside down thinking, typical of the City.
Here's a little more detail:
https://youtu.be/hZZVg4pfBFU?si=l0sBJ0C0GNicY0PG
Even the news anchor is having a tough time hiding how stupid she thinks this all is.
I think both the building and the Skyway are worth saving. But we can light that U2C nonsense on fire lol. In the building's case, its perfect for another cultural attraction to fill up that space. Plus, with the way MOSH is going, who knows if that plan for the Shipyards will ever materialize? We should at least have a vision for our Southbank public parcels and streets that's publicly vetted before unilaterally making decisions that could come back and bit us in our ass.....which is a bad pattern in our local history. We're well on our way to a nightmare scenario where we end up with no history and science museum.
And if a developer is interested in the parcel, let them come with an unsolicted proposal and pay for the demolition themselves. Otherwise, this is a public incentive provided for someone who will likely come with their hands open wide for more incentive money.
Not to mention the entire northbank and southbank are full of vacant parcels.
The fact that it has to be paved over for parking within 6 months makes me think it may be needed for construction staging/parking for the Related Group project. Along with the fact that the demo permit is being sought right after RG submitted for their building permit.
Hopefully whatever behind the scenes dealing that led to this decision comes to light soon.
I am starting to think that MOSH had no part in the decision to close their doors at the old museum. This is insane. I really felt like that building should have been adaptive reuse and was the best building downtown to actually be the elusive "Food Hall." I am imagining a multi-story building with a balcony that overlooks the fountain. My vision would have been this:
Boutique 33 room hotel (4th floor)
Food Hall with 10-15 vendors, and large outdoor balcony to overlook the fountain(3rd floor)
Sun Ray Cinema with 2 screens (1st and 2nd floor)
4 creative office spaces
4 fountain facing, ground level retail spaces.
Quote from: Jankelope on January 14, 2026, 11:55:47 AM
I am starting to think that MOSH had no part in the decision to close their doors at the old museum. This is insane.
I would SINCERELY HOPE that the city wouldn't hang MOSH out to dry like this.
And make them take the negative hit from a PR perspective for a city decision to backtrack on their word to keep the museum open until the new one was ready for move-in.
P.S. If you want to make your voice heard to new DIA leadership who might not have as much perspective on our long, tragic history of speculative demolition:
https://dia.jacksonville.gov/about/dia-staff/tarbert
I'm actually not upset by this news. Definitely not my field, but I imagine renovating a four-story windowless building, built in the 60's, designed as museum, into some sort of residential/retail hot spot would be quite expensive. I also do not think this building has any "cool" exterior architecture worth preserving. FWIW, there is a lot of trash accumulating around the property right now, which is kind of hurting the vibe around Friendship Fountain. Better to just start from scratch, and hey, for the park lovers, maybe they will just expand the highly successful Friendship Fountain park. Just my 2 cents.
That's not the worst possible outcome, Joey, but I will quite upset if it just becomes parking. I can totally imagine someone in city being like "Oh the parking lot gets full every day, gotta build more parking" rather than starting to condition our citizens to parking in garages or hubs and walking 2 blocks (oh the horror)
Knocking it down actually makes right now, what doesn't make sense is it just becoming surface parking. It should be another park/extension of friendship fountain along the southbank.
I recall in the redevelopment agreement with Related for their Southbank tower, a right of first refusal for the MOSH site was included should the city decide to sell the property. After the success of their Jax Beach project, they indicated they were searching for sites Downtown for another condo (not apartments) project due to limited land availability at the beach.
Judging from Tarbert's comments, I have no doubt Related already has plans for this site and it will end up in their hands at some point
The demolition is on the agenda for the January 21 DIA Board meeting.
From the authorizing resolution (begins on page 48)
Quote
WHEREAS, after consideration of the costs associated with maintaining the now vacant
museum building (e.g. security, utilities) together with a desire for redevelopment of the site, it
has been determined that demolition of the building is in the public interest as well as in the
interest of DIA; and
WHEREAS, as the Community Redevelopment Agency, the site will be included in
DIA's inventory of properties for redevelopment; and
https://dia.jacksonville.gov/cms/getattachment/4846c520-07fe-41a3-a8f3-fc6b027066c2/20260121_DIA-Board-Meeting-Agenda-Packet
Now, the resolution doesn't cite a specific "desire for redevelopment," but it would fit the Related scenario.
Condos would be nice just because that is real estate that individuals can own rather than rent. We need way more condos just in general all through the city. They should be one of the main ways we are trying to address affordability (obviously not the riverfront ones) but new build condos that allow purchasing of housing at that $150,000-$250,000 range that is so rare.
Regarding condos on that spot, I have a little bit of reservation just because you only get a small amount of space to have that much access to Friendship Fountain. I kind of liked having a civic attraction there.
I have no issue with Related putting condos up on the MOSH site, but if we're demolishing a functional building on the Taxpayer dime then I'd fully expect them to pay market price for that prime property and make the ROI work with strictly private dollars.
HA! Fat chance.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on January 16, 2026, 12:57:30 PM
I have no issue with Related putting condos up on the MOSH site, but if we're demolishing a functional building on the Taxpayer dime then I'd fully expect them to pay market price for that prime property and make the ROI work with strictly private dollars.
HA! Fat chance.
I see another parcel of public riverfront land being given away to developers. Any incentives would just be salt in this wound.
This parcel is small enough that I would not expect any significant private project to be worth "selling it". I support adding it to Friendship Park and keeping it in the public's hands.
When I visit other cities, they have much wider swaths of public land on their waterfronts. I promise that one day people will regret having all these private projects abut our beautiful river. Short term gain for long term loss. No one seems to be able to see the future of this City.
I think there still needs to be something on that street-facing end (where MOSH is now) to keep people in the area besides just... standing around on the grass? Whether that's a cafe or second restaurant or something. The Related tower already accomplishes what the Gateway Jax project will at Riverfront Plaza with bringing some residents, so a second tower there seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will work long-term to have nothing but more lawn. Serving as an expansion of the park with more things to do would be good. Strikes me as a bit of a shame if the building is really unusable though, unless there's something wrong structurally somehow.
^There's nothing stucturally unstable with the building. Like all buildings, it requires upkeep and maintenance and there's a cost that comes with that. We'd really benefit from having an actual master plan for publicly owned assets in downtown that has been vetted with real public input. But we've been saying that for years now.
DIA board approved unanimously. I really hope there is a plan behind all of this.
I emailed the DIA's new CEO, Colin Tarbert last week expressing my disappointment about the plans to demolish the MOSH building....This was the response:
" Dear......,
Thank you for reaching out and sharing your perspective on the former MOSH building. I appreciate the advocacy for preservation and adaptive reuse, and I wanted to respond directly and candidly.
Before coming to Jacksonville, I spent more than 20 years working in urban redevelopment in Baltimore, much of it involving historic and legacy buildings. Over that time, I've worked on projects where preservation and reuse made sense, and others where demolition was the responsible outcome based on building condition, feasibility, and long-term public benefit.
One example is Baltimore's 1961 Civic Center. Many people believed it should be demolished, but we instead found a path to reinvest $250 million and modernize it. That project is now CFG Bank Arena:
https://cfgbankarena.com/about-the-arena/
At Lexington Market, we pursued new construction for the market itself while preserving the 1960's structure for future reuse because it was adaptable and lent itself to continued market use. We demolished the 1982 addition to reopen the former street into a new public space:
https://lexingtonmarket.com/our-story#the-market
Similarly, when a developer proposed demolishing Broadway Market (after it being vacant for a decade) and turning the site into a park, I took the lead in ensuring the building was preserved and returned to active use. In that case, we had a clear plan and a building flexible enough to support reuse in a market-like format:
https://broadwaymarketbaltimore.com/history/
We also successfully reused buildings where the right opportunity and partner existed. The Ivy Hotel, for example, was a former city government office building that we repositioned by finding the right developer to transform it into a first-class hotel:
https://www.theivybaltimore.com/
In other cases, it was clear that buildings needed to come down. One example was the former BARD Building at Baltimore City Community College. That structure had been vacant for years, suffered repeated fires, and was no longer viable for reuse. We advocated for its demolition, and the site has since been cleared and converted into open green space, with the opportunity for future redevelopment. A local summary of that project is here:
https://www.southbmore.com/2025/03/05/a-look-at-the-new-green-space-downtown/
I'm also attaching a short PDF that shows the long-term evolution of Baltimore's Harbor East area, a redevelopment effort that began in the mid-1980s. It illustrates how historic warehouse buildings were selectively preserved, others were demolished, sites sat as parking or open space for a period of time, and then—over many years—incremental high-density development took hold. Today, only one or two major sites remain undeveloped.
I share that example because large-scale urban redevelopment, particularly in secondary markets, often unfolds over decades rather than years. Open or interim sites can feel stagnant in the moment, but they are often part of a longer transition toward more intense, higher-quality development. In my experience, once market momentum begins, development tends to accelerate.
In Downtown Jacksonville, there are several buildings I strongly believe should be reused and rehabilitated, including the Trio, the former Stanton School building, and remaining historic fabric in LaVilla as you noted. Preservation absolutely has an important role here.
In the case of the former MOSH building, however, my professional judgment is that reuse or rehabilitation is not viable. The building was designed for a very specific museum use, with an internalized layout and floor plate that do not lend themselves to other uses. Major building systems have failed or are close to failing, the roof would need replacement, the building is highly energy inefficient, and it contains asbestos. Simply maintaining the building to prevent further deterioration would require hundreds of thousands of dollars annually, with no realistic path to reuse.
These same realities are why MOSH determined that renovating and expanding the building did not make sense and chose to pursue new construction elsewhere.
Hey, at least he took the time to write you a relatively lengthy response I guess.
There's a lot to read in this response but there's one thing I was looking for that isn't elaborated on much.
What about the community/public having a seat at the decision-making table? Was there a vision or plan that had originally been created through the work of inclusive community engagement and participation, thus allowing the things mentioned below to be evaluated as a part of implementing a vision built with community consensus?
We don't have community consensus or visioning in place with downtown Jax. We've been flying by the seat of our pants for years and as a result, we've spent just as much money on downtown as Baltimore but have failed to create the synergy and vibrancy everyone claims they want.
On the other hand, there are some things Jax has succeeded at that Baltimore is still seriously struggling with. The Inner Harbor has some great spots and has come a long way since the 1980s. But walk a few blocks away and you'll find yourself in some real hell and dispair....much more significant than you will find in Jax. So context is key as well.
Quote from: Jones518 on January 21, 2026, 07:48:36 PM
I emailed the DIA's new CEO, Colin Tarbert last week expressing my disappointment about the plans to demolish the MOSH building....This was the response:
" Dear......,
Thank you for reaching out and sharing your perspective on the former MOSH building. I appreciate the advocacy for preservation and adaptive reuse, and I wanted to respond directly and candidly.
Before coming to Jacksonville, I spent more than 20 years working in urban redevelopment in Baltimore, much of it involving historic and legacy buildings. Over that time, I've worked on projects where preservation and reuse made sense, and others where demolition was the responsible outcome based on building condition, feasibility, and long-term public benefit.
One example is Baltimore's 1961 Civic Center. Many people believed it should be demolished, but we instead found a path to reinvest $250 million and modernize it. That project is now CFG Bank Arena:
https://cfgbankarena.com/about-the-arena/
At Lexington Market, we pursued new construction for the market itself while preserving the 1960's structure for future reuse because it was adaptable and lent itself to continued market use. We demolished the 1982 addition to reopen the former street into a new public space:
https://lexingtonmarket.com/our-story#the-market
Similarly, when a developer proposed demolishing Broadway Market (after it being vacant for a decade) and turning the site into a park, I took the lead in ensuring the building was preserved and returned to active use. In that case, we had a clear plan and a building flexible enough to support reuse in a market-like format:
https://broadwaymarketbaltimore.com/history/
We also successfully reused buildings where the right opportunity and partner existed. The Ivy Hotel, for example, was a former city government office building that we repositioned by finding the right developer to transform it into a first-class hotel:
https://www.theivybaltimore.com/
In other cases, it was clear that buildings needed to come down. One example was the former BARD Building at Baltimore City Community College. That structure had been vacant for years, suffered repeated fires, and was no longer viable for reuse. We advocated for its demolition, and the site has since been cleared and converted into open green space, with the opportunity for future redevelopment. A local summary of that project is here:
https://www.southbmore.com/2025/03/05/a-look-at-the-new-green-space-downtown/
I'm also attaching a short PDF that shows the long-term evolution of Baltimore's Harbor East area, a redevelopment effort that began in the mid-1980s. It illustrates how historic warehouse buildings were selectively preserved, others were demolished, sites sat as parking or open space for a period of time, and then—over many years—incremental high-density development took hold. Today, only one or two major sites remain undeveloped.
I share that example because large-scale urban redevelopment, particularly in secondary markets, often unfolds over decades rather than years. Open or interim sites can feel stagnant in the moment, but they are often part of a longer transition toward more intense, higher-quality development. In my experience, once market momentum begins, development tends to accelerate.
In Downtown Jacksonville, there are several buildings I strongly believe should be reused and rehabilitated, including the Trio, the former Stanton School building, and remaining historic fabric in LaVilla as you noted. Preservation absolutely has an important role here.
In the case of the former MOSH building, however, my professional judgment is that reuse or rehabilitation is not viable. The building was designed for a very specific museum use, with an internalized layout and floor plate that do not lend themselves to other uses. Major building systems have failed or are close to failing, the roof would need replacement, the building is highly energy inefficient, and it contains asbestos. Simply maintaining the building to prevent further deterioration would require hundreds of thousands of dollars annually, with no realistic path to reuse.
These same realities are why MOSH determined that renovating and expanding the building did not make sense and chose to pursue new construction elsewhere.
I kind of thought that when he said he or DIA decides what is significant and can be salvaged and what can be demolished. This decision does involve the community. He is also quite new to the city. Could this building be another museum? Who determined it has no other use? What happens if MOSH does not raise the money? Are we out a Science Museum?
No problem. Just raze it to the ground, and development will come! Right...? In the meantime, it can be a parking lot, just like the old Greyhound building.
I would like to try to meet with the new DIA guy. I think he is great, but also question some of this with MOSH.
To someone else point, the community had no say in if this should have become another museum, etc.
I still don't feel that we have a clear answer why Alistar Dove, who is a true pro at running museums...is stepping down from CEO. There's something we don't know going on.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on January 23, 2026, 07:55:09 AM
I kind of thought that when he said he or DIA decides what is significant and can be salvaged and what can be demolished. This decision does involve the community. He is also quite new to the city. Could this building be another museum? Who determined it has no other use? What happens if MOSH does not raise the money? Are we out a Science Museum?
Yes, all these are important factors to consider that should guide staff decision making with public assets.
Quote from: Jankelope on January 23, 2026, 09:30:17 AM
I still don't feel that we have a clear answer why Alistar Dove, who is a true pro at running museums...is stepping down from CEO. There's something we don't know going on.
He has no museum to run for the foreseeable future.
Can't wait for another massive incentive package for another apartment tower on the Southbank.
That space really needs to be something more similar to the ideas for the Gateway Tower that's currently being proposed for Riverfront Plaza.
That mid-rise tower could have Hotel, Residential, Retail, Restaurant, and Rooftop access. That is really what is needed at that former MOSH site IF they believe they must have something of that scale. If it just ends up being apartments or condos it will be a huge loss of an important space. Surely they're not that stupid right?
If MOSH is going to go away, there's an argument to expand the park and focus on filling the vacant ground floor retail spaces in the office tower immediately to the south.
https://jaxtoday.org/2026/01/28/jax-council-extends-mosh-construction/
MOSH was granted a six month extension to start construction, which would push the opening to 2029, best case scenario.
The 75 parking spots will remain.
Joe Carlucci on what will happen to the old MOSH site post-unilateral decision to demolish without public input:
QuoteCarlucci said Tuesday that he expects it will "get a lot of attention" when the city issues a formal request for proposals to redevelop the MOSH property later this year. But he doesn't expect it to be used for for-rent housing.
"There is obviously a lot of interest in that site but nothing formal or specific yet," Carlucci told Jacksonville Today in a text message. "Preferred use is probably retail, hotel or multiuse. Not apartments."
Broken record, but the absence of a true master plan leads to monumental foolishness like this, where you've got a random Council member and a new DIA head crying asbestos on a building that was just occupied five months ago, knocking it down, and replacing it with either parking, or retail, or hotel, or mixed use. How will it be paid for? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Will it require large cash incentives that may or may not fit into our larger strategy? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Does another hotel undermine that one down the block we just laid out $15 million in incentives for? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ What does the public want in this historic civic space opposite our lovely, historic public park? \_(ツ)_/¯
Key question to me that has been very poorly communicated during this rushed demolition talk: Does Related have a right of first refusal for the MOSH property. If yes, I hope we don't pull a Ford on Bay and waste a lot of time and a lot of goodwill putting out a performative RFP knowing the end already.
If this is a play to give Related the property to develop, it's disappointing to see Curry-era antics seep back in. Public deserves a seat at the table with this one, or at least more transparency into the process and decision making. Not opposed to mixed use with retail, assuming it strongly complements the park. Not even opposed to Related taking control with a smart, pedestrian-first plan. We kind of screwed them when they purchased the land under the promise of having a new MOSH next door. Just deeply dislike more demolition accompanied by either a lack of a follow up plan, or a secretive follow up plan.
^ Disappointed to see Joe Carlucci ruling out expansion of the park.
I have no problem with a restaurant with a river view taking up less than half of the property but another hotel? If we don't have things to do and sites to see, who is going to fill more hotel rooms? Aren't hotels planned for the School Board site, Baptist, the former District? Plus, all the ones on the Southbank already built? Does anyone have a market study for hotel room demand analysis?
What is he thinking multiuse is? Do his preferences override input from others?
What's wrong with just expanding the park? I would think Related would love to have significant green space for its residents to enjoy as a taxpayer paid amenity. Not to mention attracting more tourists to fill existing hotels.
Agree with Ken on the foolishness of no masterplan. Just throw money at developers for whatever they want. They build and move on while we citizens have to live for decades with what they leave behind. So we should have more say and benefits.
I'd really like to see something there with some street facing retail or pedestrain level activation. Same goes for that janky surface parking lot on the other side of Main.
Quote from: acme54321 on January 29, 2026, 06:57:42 AM
I'd really like to see something there with some street facing retail or pedestrain level activation. Same goes for that janky surface parking lot on the other side of Main.
Whatever they want to put on the MOSH site should be put on this surface lot. Talk about "shovel ready". i know the property is probably privately owned, but it can be bought.
Quote from: Papa33 on January 29, 2026, 07:52:39 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on January 29, 2026, 06:57:42 AM
I'd really like to see something there with some street facing retail or pedestrain level activation. Same goes for that janky surface parking lot on the other side of Main.
Whatever they want to put on the MOSH site should be put on this surface lot. Talk about "shovel ready". i know the property is probably privately owned, but it can be bought.
According to the Property Appraiser's map, the /janky surface parking lot' is part of the parcel with Riverplace (nee Gulf Life) Tower. The hotel is a separate parcel.
https://jaxtoday.org/2026/01/28/jax-council-extends-mosh-construction/?fbclid=IwY2xjawPoYx5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBicmlkETFOQWMybmNXSzByTnJJb1M5c3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHnx4_LM3uimf1DZODmlRGWCp2d_oFaxRCbFrOX3zaKhNAiax6evMUNHJfn15_aem_ZdFIW0bwjSR-Dmb5mhflcQ
Best case we are looking at Beginning of 2029 for opening? What a mess.
A city of over 1 million people and there won't be a science museum in town for at least 3-4 years.
What a disservice the city is doing to the children of Jacksonville.
And we have little reason to believe a 2029 opening will even happen. What a disaster.
Its probably more likely to never open then open in 2029. It was shortsighted to close the existing museum and the same applies to the rush to demolish it. Anything crazy happens and we easily end up with nothing.
Quote from: copperfiend on January 29, 2026, 11:35:49 AM
A city of over 1 million people and there won't be a science museum in town for at least 3-4 years.
What a disservice the city is doing to the children of Jacksonville.
And we have little reason to believe a 2029 opening will even happen. What a disaster.
AND THEY TOOK ADVENTURE LANDING FROM US.
Slim options for family fun around town.
1. MOSH announces it will stay in Southbank museum until the new Northbank property opens.
2. On very short notice, MOSH suddenly decides to abandon the Southbank museum and close for years; staff is all fired; organization has been completely dark on social media for 7 months and counting
3. The MOSH CEO, brought in oversee the launch of the new Northbank museum, resigns out of the blue
4. On very short notice, the City suddenly decides to demolish the Southbank museum, citing never-before-noted concerns
5. Decision is made for a speedy RFP, with no public input
All sounds very much on the up-and-up.
In a less apathetic city, we'd have answers.
If I may share Jankalope's posts from the Haskell Building discussion
Quote
Quote from: Jankelope on January 29, 2026, 10:37:31 AM
I feel like there's no way the building isn't eventually turned into more housing of some kind. It would be cool to see if become a museum of some kind...
Wait a minute...don't we need a new building for our Science Museum? ;D
Quote from: Jankelope on January 29, 2026, 10:39:26 AM
Weirdly, I was kidding, but the Haskell old HQ is 120,000 square feet (basically perfect for MOSH, and more square feet than the current new building proposal). And has parking garage etc.
I mean it's probably not perfect, but what could you build if you put the current $90 million raised purely into exhibits and adapting the building? hmm
^It would make more logic to stay where they are and put money into a renovation similar to what was originally planned before the Shipyards debacle.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2026, 07:03:23 PM
^It would make more logic to stay where they are and put money into a renovation similar to what was originally planned before the Shipyards debacle.
Yeah; agree. At least we would still have a Museum.
Can we just ask the Florida Natural History Museum to take over since it is run and operated by the University of Florida? As stated, MOSH is now a mess. Also, chance at state funding if Florida Natural History Museum were to operate. They are doing a renovation in Gainesville currently.
If things go keflooey, could the Jacksonville Historical Society (https://jaxhistory.org/) be gifted the 'historic' exhibits from the Museum of Science and History? Their new History Center, on Palmetto Street, is less than a third of a mile (walking distance) from the proposed MOSH site.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 30, 2026, 05:53:32 PM
If things go keflooey, could the Jacksonville Historical Society (https://jaxhistory.org/) be gifted the 'historic' exhibits from the Museum of Science and History? Their new History Center, on Palmetto Street, is less than a third of a mile (walking distance) from the proposed MOSH site.
It's pretty full already. Perhaps very small items/docs only.