QuoteWhere the St. Johns River flows through downtown Jacksonville, the barren land known as The Shipyards on the Northbank and the grass-covered tract called The District on the Southbank face each other in mirror images of proposed mega-developments that have yet to break ground after years of trying.
In June, the clock ran out on Jaguars owner Shad Khan's right to negotiate a redevelopment agreement for The Shipyards and Metropolitan Park, the long swath of Northbank riverfront where Khan's plan in 2017 called for condominiums, apartments, hotels, stores, restaurants and marina docks along 70 acres.
Time is running down as well for The District on the Southbank.
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/08/26/downtown-jacksonville-mega-projects-struggle-get-off-ground/5631345002/
Surprise?
Could this be a sign... that maybe, constantly hitching the taxpayer wagon to mega-projects and sugar daddies instead of getting the fundamentals right isn't the best plan?
So many projects announced to help bring vibrancy to the urban core during this economic cycle, so few shovels in the ground.
- The Shipyards
- The District
- Lot J
- Veterans Park w/ Elevated gardens
- Berkman II/Dave and Busters on Steroids
- Ambassador Hotel/Condos
- USS Adams
- Jones Bros Furniture
- Doro District
- Bullbriar Restaurant in the Marble Bank building
- Courtyard by Marriot at the Trio with Rooftop Bar
- Laura Street Garage with ground-floor retail
- Convention Center
- Ford on Bay/Spandrel Development
- Mathers Social/Joystick
- Main Street Dog Park
- Friendship Fountain Node (fountain upgrades, playground, misters with projected video)
- Times-Union Center Node (visitor center, outdoor dining, movies/events projected onto the side of the CSX building)
- Hemming Park infrastructure improvements (Community First stage, Black Sheep shipping container restaurant)
- Hyatt Place
- Hotel Indigo with Rooftop Bar
- First Baptist Campus Sale & Redevelopment
- Snyder Memorial RFP
We've seen some good faith investment from entities like VyStar, FCSJ, Forking Restaurants, and Steve Atkins/Southeast Group who speak of their projects almost altruistically (helping Downtown Jacksonville) rather than economically (showing a large return on their investments), some restaurants and retailers drawn to the area via public incentives, and some much needed workforce housing come online via Vestcor, but a decade removed from the recession, downtown feels no closer to being a hot investment market than it did ten years ago.
In a lot of ways, despite what the DVI blasts out each year in their overly inflated annual reports, it feels like we have actually moved backwards in recent years, or at best played a zero sum game. We've razed the Landing; demoed historic building stock; decreased density with more surface parking (Greyhound Station) and barren lawns (Annex, Courthouse, Main Street pocket park); lost marquee restaurant space (the Landing, Candy Apple, Magnificat, etc.).
Watching urban trends throughout the nation and seeing the progress that our sister cities have made - or even looking at what's happening in Brooklyn with less city intervention - it just seems so clear that the people in charge of facilitating downtown development are not only not helping, but are actively sabotaging any momentum the private sector has attempted to make downtown.
I like the nuts and bolts approach that the DIA is taking with zoning reform, two-way streets, concentrating incentives into specific corridors, facade improvement, and beefing up the historic preservation trust and rehab funding, but man have we let an unprecedented economic cycle pass without significant progress. Would love to see the dollar breakdown between public demo and public construction over the last five years in particular.
Agree with all said.
Now, there is a major difference between the two: The Shipyards is city-owned. The District is not.
this obsession with a single neighborhood, downtown, is not healthy.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 26, 2020, 11:23:35 AM
this obsession with a single neighborhood, downtown, is not healthy.
Great cities have great downtowns.
And as someone who works closely with the city on tourism, I can tell you without hesitation that we're leaving a lot of money on the table as well by not figuring out our downtown situation.
The RNC is a great example.
Despite all of our major event facilities being downtown, a huge percentage of guests were planning to stay outside of city limits. Pumping bed taxes and revenue into the hotels and restaurants in Fernandina Beach and Amelia Island instead.
All neighborhoods are important, but criticizing a focus on downtown is akin to saying, "this focus on a singular organ, your heart, is not healthy."
Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 26, 2020, 10:40:13 AM
So many projects announced to help bring vibrancy to the urban core during this economic cycle, so few shovels in the ground.
- The Shipyards
- The District
- Lot J
- Veterans Park w/ Elevated gardens
- Berkman II/Dave and Busters on Steroids
- Ambassador Hotel/Condos
- USS Adams
- Jones Bros Furniture
- Doro District
- Bullbriar Restaurant in the Marble Bank building
- Courtyard by Marriot at the Trio with Rooftop Bar
- Laura Street Garage with ground-floor retail
- Convention Center
- Ford on Bay/Spandrel Development
- Mathers Social/Joystick
- Main Street Dog Park
- Friendship Fountain Node (fountain upgrades, playground, misters with projected video)
- Times-Union Center Node (visitor center, outdoor dining, movies/events projected onto the side of the CSX building)
- Hemming Park infrastructure improvements (Community First stage, Black Sheep shipping container restaurant)
- Hyatt Place
- Hotel Indigo with Rooftop Bar
- First Baptist Campus Sale & Redevelopment
- Snyder Memorial RFP
We've seen some good faith investment from entities like VyStar, FCSJ, Forking Restaurants, and Steve Atkins/Southeast Group who speak of their projects almost altruistically (helping Downtown Jacksonville) rather than economically (showing a large return on their investments), some restaurants and retailers drawn to the area via public incentives, and some much needed workforce housing come online via Vestcor, but a decade removed from the recession, downtown feels no closer to being a hot investment market than it did ten years ago.
In a lot of ways, despite what the DVI blasts out each year in their overly inflated annual reports, it feels like we have actually moved backwards in recent years, or at best played a zero sum game. We've razed the Landing; demoed historic building stock; decreased density with more surface parking (Greyhound Station) and barren lawns (Annex, Courthouse, Main Street pocket park); lost marquee restaurant space (the Landing, Candy Apple, Magnificat, etc.).
Watching urban trends throughout the nation and seeing the progress that our sister cities have made - or even looking at what's happening in Brooklyn with less city intervention - it just seems so clear that the people in charge of facilitating downtown development are not only not helping, but are actively sabotaging any momentum the private sector has attempted to make downtown.
I like the nuts and bolts approach that the DIA is taking with zoning reform, two-way streets, concentrating incentives into specific corridors, facade improvement, and beefing up the historic preservation trust and rehab funding, but man have we let an unprecedented economic cycle pass without significant progress. Would love to see the dollar breakdown between public demo and public construction over the last five years in particular.
Sounds like it's time to pull out the list of predictions from a few years ago, see how little of it we checked off. I'm honestly not sure if anything got checked off.
Quote from: Steve on August 26, 2020, 11:05:37 AM
Now, there is a major difference between the two: The Shipyards is city-owned. The District is not.
Yes, but the City via JEA, did have control of the District property. Effectively, it's just at a different point on the development timeline but, nonetheless, another failed City initiative.
The blessing, to me, is this gives the Green Space group a chance to retrieve these properties from developers and convert them into the riverfront "large parks" we should be creating for now and the next 100 years and beyond. Yes, that requires vision, unfortunately, something missing in our City leaders, so not holding out much hope but glad someone is trying.
"Large Parks?" Like the Landing? City hall annex?
Parks boil down to the same problem. Money. You want to do something nice that attracts people consistently? Expect to spend a good $100 million and include things like retail, museums, restrooms, fountains and landscaping that's a bit more attractive than sod. Then it will all need to be maintained.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 26, 2020, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 26, 2020, 11:23:35 AM
this obsession with a single neighborhood, downtown, is not healthy.
Great cities have great downtowns.
a) Great cities don't have great downtowns. Dowtowns are an American / Canadian thing. The great cities of europe don't have them.
b) Great downtown are a result of a vibrant, WEALTHY city.
Jacksonville's never been wealthy. In terms on income, it's at the bottom of semi-major cities in this country. It ain't going to be wealthy anytime soon.
Getting city sewer and water to the properties in picketville will do far more to improve the lives of Jacksonvillians than a few bars downtown.
And as someone who works closely with the city on tourism, I can tell you without hesitation that we're leaving a lot of money on the table as well by not figuring out our downtown situation.
The RNC is a great example.
Despite all of our major event facilities being downtown, a huge percentage of guests were planning to stay outside of city limits. Pumping bed taxes and revenue into the hotels and restaurants in Fernandina Beach and Amelia Island instead.
All neighborhoods are important, but criticizing a focus on downtown is akin to saying, "this focus on a singular organ, your heart, is not healthy."
[/quote]
What's the chance Elements Development/Rummell/Munz gets foreclosed on by their lender?
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 27, 2020, 02:54:41 PM
a) Great cities don't have great downtowns. Dowtowns are an American / Canadian thing. The great cities of europe don't have them.
b) Great downtown are a result of a vibrant, WEALTHY city.
Jacksonville's never been wealthy. In terms on income, it's at the bottom of semi-major cities in this country. It ain't going to be wealthy anytime soon.
Getting city sewer and water to the properties in picketville will do far more to improve the lives of Jacksonvillians than a few bars downtown.
You just love being a contrarian, don't you?
a) Who brought up "the great cities of Europe?" No one here is expecting Jacksonville to be London or Paris. We're talking about equivalent peer cities, that have done a great job making their downtowns a nice place to be.
b) There are plenty of smaller towns that aren't anywhere near as wealthy as Jacksonville that have great compact downtown areas. It's not purely a matter of wealth, it's a matter of planning and fiscal responsibility. For the amount of money we've spent just to demolish stuff in favor of empty lots, we could have done plenty to improve downtown alongside any decent planning at all.
No one here disagrees that expanding sewer service is a good idea. Bringing it up like we don't want to is acting in bad faith.
Quoteb) Great downtown are a result of a vibrant, WEALTHY city.
{cough} Baltimore {cough}
{cough} New Orleans {cough}
Quote from: thelakelander on August 26, 2020, 08:45:17 AM
QuoteWhere the St. Johns River flows through downtown Jacksonville, the barren land known as The Shipyards on the Northbank and the grass-covered tract called The District on the Southbank face each other in mirror images of proposed mega-developments that have yet to break ground after years of trying.
In June, the clock ran out on Jaguars owner Shad Khan's right to negotiate a redevelopment agreement for The Shipyards and Metropolitan Park, the long swath of Northbank riverfront where Khan's plan in 2017 called for condominiums, apartments, hotels, stores, restaurants and marina docks along 70 acres.
Time is running down as well for The District on the Southbank.
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/08/26/downtown-jacksonville-mega-projects-struggle-get-off-ground/5631345002/
This doesn't surprise me. By the way......."when is something going to start at the District?" (LOL)
This was a quote from a TU Editorial on Downtown Development. Me thinks its quite telling, if true:
But what is really needed is a master plan for downtown parks. The DIA has such a plan but it had not included the Shipyards and Lot J areas because they appeared to have their own plans.
There needs to be a master plan for downtown, not just parks. The CRA Plan is not the same as a real master plan. There's no rhyme or reason, resulting in a Frankenstein set of parts. An actual vision will help guide the development community and public investment.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 28, 2020, 04:05:55 PM
There needs to be a master plan for downtown, not just parks. The CRA Plan is not the same as a real master plan. There's no rhyme or reason, resulting in a Frankenstein set of parts. An actual vision will help guide the development community and public investment.
Trying to jog my memory again, was this under Peyton (I think I recall you saying it was really Delaney's) the last time we had a downtown master plan?
https://groundworkjacksonville.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/1-jacksonville-master-plansmall-copy.pdf
^This was the master plan done during the Delaney administration. Basically, Peyton put his face on it. Winn-Dixie building a new store at Jefferson and Union (see LaVilla map on page 22) died before Peyton was elected. Winn-Dixie decided not to build that store in 2000:
QuoteWinn-Dixie pulls LaVilla project
By Devan Stuart
Nov 2, 2000, 4:38pm EST Updated Nov 2, 2000, 4:38pm EST
Winn-Dixie has nixed plans to build a new grocery store in LaVilla, opting to renovate its Market Street location instead.
Winn-Dixie officials chose to stay on Market Street because it is closer to residential projects, including Berkman Plaza, the Parks at Cathedral and several proposed projects, said Mike Weinstein, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission.
Staying put will place the store closer to a potentially larger customer base.
The Downtown Development Authority approved the LaVilla Winn-Dixie project in December 1998. Incentives included the sale of the property to Winn-Dixie for $594,048 and a 20-year development grant equal to 50 percent of new municipal and county property taxes from the project from 1999 to 2018.
The project would have been bounded by Davis, Union, Jefferson and Beaver streets across from the Ritz Theatre.
Full article: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2000/10/30/daily16.html
It's pre-Sax Seafood debacle. They didn't even bother to update the information from this late 1990s document.
Yikes.
Given we obviously won't get a Downtown Master Plan until at least 2023, how do you think a future City Hall would or should go about putting one together?
There should be inclusive public engagement from the start and a major focus should be on the future of public spaces and catalytic public sites......parks, streets, mass transit, public education, cultural destinations, etc. So if we're going to do a convention center, a site should be selected and a timeline and funding to actually do it, should be determined. Same goes for fixing up Hemming Plaza, the Landing site, bringing Amtrak back downtown, etc. If a vision is to have retail oriented streets, it would good to identify them and align design guidelines and zoning to guide incremental development to this specific outcome. This provides a real road map for the public and private sector to make the long term vision a coordinated reality.
Maybe the District is getting a second wind with a bail out?
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/09/04/preston-hollow-capital-steps-into-developer-role-district/5719501002/ (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/09/04/preston-hollow-capital-steps-into-developer-role-district/5719501002/)
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/preston-hollow-capital-taking-control-of-the-district-development (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/preston-hollow-capital-taking-control-of-the-district-development)
We'll see. This project has gone on for so long, I've forgotten the timeline. What is it for buildings actually coming out of the ground?
Vertical construction not mentioned in JDR story, just horizontal contruction - Prudential Drive, DCPS Parking Lot, Riverwalk extension, and other infrastructure.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 04, 2020, 11:13:41 PM
We'll see. This project has gone on for so long, I've forgotten the timeline. What is it for buildings actually coming out of the ground?
Didn't see a timeline in the articles except for the infrastructure bonds. It appears they have to be issued by October 1st. I would think they would at least start on infrastructure immediately as they will be paying interest every day on $31.1 million in bonds at that point. I figure even at 1% interest, that comes out to about $1,000/day roughly. Add the costs on their sunk $20+ million already.
One article states Rummell and Munz have been playing with this since 2014.
Wake me up when vertical construction begins.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 04, 2020, 11:13:41 PMI've forgotten the timeline. What is it for buildings actually coming out of the ground?
There isn't one that I know of.
Only timeline is for horizontal infrastructure (water and sewer utilities, roads, streetscape) and public amenities (the riverfront park(s) and trails). These have to be completed by end of 2023.
But if Preston Hollow does purchase the $31 million in bonds necessary to fund horizontal construction and infrastructure improvements, the only way they can recoup that money from the city is through tax credits on completed vertical construction.
If we see the bonds closed on, I think that's a pretty positive thing for the site. At the very least, it will transform the site into something development ready and light a fire under Preston Hollow's ass to build something so they can recoup the infrastructure costs (and up to $56 million in other tax abatements).
I got curious about Preston Hollow, so I went to their website. Here's the "Featured Investments" page: http://phcllc.com/featured-investments/
From what I can gather, they provide the dollars and others do the 'dirt pushing'.
I'm with Lake on this one. This money moving is as much progress as the Shipyards until there are cranes and concrete on the site. That's when it's worth paying attention to.
What ever happened to the Rail Yard District plan?
^What RYD plan?
More renderings on the way!
QuoteDIA to ask National Park Service for Metropolitan Park, Shipyards swap
The Downtown Investment Authority wants the National Park Service to consider trading Metropolitan Park for the city-owned Shipyards property.
The DIA's inquiry comes as its CEO Lori Boyer said Iguana Investments Florida LLC, led by Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan, plans to submit a new development proposal for the parkland. The DIA also is seeking to integrate public park space with private development on the Downtown riverfront.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-ask-national-park-service-for-metropolitan-park-shipyards-swap