Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/New-Town-July-2019/i-Gjm76jD/0/587bded3/L/20190727_115755-L.jpg)
Councilman Matt Carlucci proposes an infrastructure spending boost in the pre-consolidated city of Jacksonville. Councilman Randy White proposes a plan to demolish more buildings in Jacksonville's underrepresented neighborhoods.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/councilman-carlucci-proposes-urban-core-spending-boost/
I like Carlucci's plan, long past time to start living up to the promises of Consolidation.
I don't like White's plan. I am sure a lot of those houses could be rehabbed. Heck, half (it seems) of the programming on HGTV is about people who buy distressed houses, rehab them, and sell them. Some talk about buying the houses from their city (e.g. Indianapolis). I know the COJ has a terrible record as a property owner, but that seems something that can be fixed with the right people - perhaps someone with a real estate background, not engineering or code compliance.
White's proposal is one that leads to more blight, erases underrepresented history and lacks authentic community engagement and public involvement. I can see him meaning well but it exacerbates the struggles of these neighborhoods. By now, we should know better. We need to use funds to repopulate and economically stabilize these areas. Not erase cultural sites important to neighborhood history and create more overgrown vacant lots that inhabitants of these areas will never get financing to build anything new on them.
Yes, if there is anything Jacksonville does not need, it is more city-owned vacant lots with overgrown weeds producing no taxes and not even being considered for redevelopment as soon as someone sees who owns it.
I do think using the old city limits makes sense. Those were the people that voted for consolidation with the promise of infrastructure. Yes, some of that money would go south of the river, and that's okay - those folks had a vote in consolidation too.
Side note - I pulled the district map to see how much it overlapped: https://www.coj.net/city-council/docs/maps/2015districtmap.aspx
Crazy to see some of those district boundaries - Amazing that District 9 contains both Edward Waters College and I-295/Collins Road
I would be interested to see how much of a +/- this is compared to today.
I don't think the old city limits make sense for NW Jax. Not all disenfranchised lived in city limits during Jim Crow. For example, when I-95 was constructed, Hansontown, Sugar Hill, etc. were initially being targeted for urban renewal, many displaced residents ended up north of the CSX railroad line, which was the northwest city boundary. So historically redlined communities like Royal Terrace (Avenue B), Magnolia Gardens (Raines High School), etc. fall outside that preconsolidated boundary while Ortega, Avondale and San Marco fall within it. To really pinpoint the areas where investment is needed most, we'll need to dig deeper into local history, economics and demographics of specific neighborhoods. Nevertheless, the pre-consolidated limits are a good starting point for this discussion though.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2020, 10:58:06 AM
I don't think the old city limits make sense for NW Jax. Not all disenfranchised lived in city limits during Jim Crow. For example, when I-95 was constructed, Hansontown, Sugar Hill, etc. were initially being targeted for urban renewal, many displaced residents ended up north of the CSX railroad line, which was the northwest city boundary. So historically redlined communities like Royal Terrace (Avenue B), Magnolia Gardens (Raines High School), etc. fall outside that preconsolidated boundary while Ortega, Avondale and San Marco fall within it. To really pinpoint the areas where investment is needed most, we'll need to dig deeper into local history, economics and demographics of specific neighborhoods. Nevertheless, the pre-consolidated limits are a good starting point for this discussion though.
Narrowly defining pre-consolidated limits would exclude Royal Terrace, Magnolia Gardens, Sherwood Forest and Ribault... on the flip side the King/Soutel CRA touches many neighborhoods West of Edgewood- which have a lower density/more rural development-like pattern, and whose needs may be different than the more medium density/more transitional developments to their North and East (almost like Lakeshore which was developed in that tweener timeframe that blended walkable/auto-oriented patterns).
Agree that it is, at the very least, a good starting point for discussion.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2020, 10:58:06 AM
I don't think the old city limits make sense for NW Jax. Not all disenfranchised lived in city limits during Jim Crow. For example, when I-95 was constructed, Hansontown, Sugar Hill, etc. were initially being targeted for urban renewal, many displaced residents ended up north of the CSX railroad line, which was the northwest city boundary. So historically redlined communities like Royal Terrace (Avenue B), Magnolia Gardens (Raines High School), etc. fall outside that preconsolidated boundary while Ortega, Avondale and San Marco fall within it. To really pinpoint the areas where investment is needed most, we'll need to dig deeper into local history, economics and demographics of specific neighborhoods. Nevertheless, the pre-consolidated limits are a good starting point for this discussion though.
Good points. I didn't know about the history of some of those areas and missed that Raines was outside those limits. Now with that said, while San Marco certainly hasn't been forgotten like areas of NW Jax there were infrastructure promises made in some of those neighborhoods that also are unfulfilled. I've not done a ton of research, but it's pretty obvious that the City of South Jacksonville didn't have the tax base that Jacksonville has, and it shows in things like drainage, sidewalks, etc. Now, because of (I believe) racial inequality over the decades, San Marco is in much better shape than NW Jax as a whole.
I do agree this one will be tough as the district boundaries don't really make sense to me either. District 7 includes Springfield and Brentwood, but also the airport and borders the Nassau River. Like I pointed out 9 includes areas that certainly should be included, but also areas that probably should not. Similar arguments could be made for 8 and 10.
But here's the question: Will Jacksonville get it right? Meaning, there's two questions that should be answered:
- What should the boundaries be - based on all the things you mentioned?
- How does that shift funding compared to today?
While the committee has no money to spend on special projects, Councilman Reggie Gaffney said at the last meeting he was working on moving some money from his District's Community Redevelopment Agency to instead work on needs throughout the entire community.
I wasn't aware District 7 had resolved it's backlog of infrastructure needs, and had extra cash to pass out to other areas.
Quote from: Steve on August 25, 2020, 11:52:37 AM
But here's the question: Will Jacksonville get it right? Meaning, there's two questions that should be answered:
Unfortunately, it will be no if there is no inclusive public engagement and analysis. In other words, things rarely turn out well when council and/or the mayor's office make unilateral decisions in areas of urban planning where politicians may mean well but lack the professional knowledge on how their decisions can ultimately impact the community.
Quote- What should the boundaries be - based on all the things you mentioned?
Instead of a specific boundary, I'd hope that there is a list of deferred infrastructure needs and projects. Assuming there is, some sort of project prioritization list should be weighted to allow the deferred projects in these historically disenfranchised areas to be implemented. As for selection criteria, some items that should possibly be considered include if the community was redlined, household income, historical racial percentage (in Jax specifically, if a neighborhood is a historically Black one that dates back before consolidation, you can bet your bottom dollar that it has been systemically screwed over locally). What we might end up with is something that identifies pockets of need all over the county that don't align with the preconsolidated limits or council districts. By the nature of our systemic discriminatory public policies, investments and practices over the last century, most of NW Jax would still bubble up to the top, without omitting other areas of town that are also in need.
Quote- How does that shift funding compared to today?
To me, it's like writing a contract or a planning study scope of services. The more detailed the scope is, the better off you'll end up with a good deliverable that doesn't end up blowing the budget. So the more detailed effort we put into identifying systemic practices and their historic relationships to the development of the city that we see today, the better off we'll be with targeting the areas that need the most help and the projects that deliver the most for the community. However, to accomplish this, our local politicians are going to have to lean on qualified people and staff to assist in preparing them for the decisions they'll ultimately have to make.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on August 25, 2020, 04:14:42 PM
While the committee has no money to spend on special projects, Councilman Reggie Gaffney said at the last meeting he was working on moving some money from his District's Community Redevelopment Agency to instead work on needs throughout the entire community.
I wasn't aware District 7 had resolved it's backlog of infrastructure needs, and had extra cash to pass out to other areas.
Interesting. The older areas of Gaffney's district need more money, not less.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 25, 2020, 08:26:05 AM
I know the COJ has a terrible record as a property owner, but that seems something that can be fixed with the right people
Expecting an organization that has for generations behaved in XYZ way to suddenly get right and sharply execute with the change of a few people is foolish. Organizations just don't change like that. Even if they did, they don't have any real skin in the game; no real incentive to change nor to do an outstanding job.
Not everything can be nor is worth saving. Hell, we don't have the resources to save things that seem pretty obvious - like the old buffalo soldier house in Brooklyn. How about y'll pick 1 or 2 key historical places / rows ( note, maybe not just a building; importance could be becasue of a group of building ) and focus on that?
There's a lot of abandoned houses & flat out junk that needs to get cleaned up. Just because people don't have a lot of money for housing doesn't mean they should have to live with abandoned homes, flophouses and other blight.
Perhaps we should seek the opinion of residents who live in the targeted communities and identify what's important and worth saving to them. It's pretty elitist to tell someone their history or buildings aren't worth saving and reusing, if that's a desire they want to see. Yet, we do it all the time with the decisions we make, the policies we enforce and the lack of providing inclusive opportunities for public engagement.
QuoteThere's a lot of abandoned houses & flat out junk that needs to get cleaned up. Just because people don't have a lot of money for housing doesn't mean they should have to live with abandoned homes, flophouses and other blight.
Demolishing a building that could be rehabbed only to have a publicly owned but completely unmaintained vacant lot is not an improvement.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 26, 2020, 11:43:41 AM
Not everything can be nor is worth saving. Hell, we don't have the resources to save things that seem pretty obvious - like the old buffalo soldier house in Brooklyn. How about y'll pick 1 or 2 key historical places / rows ( note, maybe not just a building; importance could be becasue of a group of building ) and focus on that?
There's a lot of abandoned houses & flat out junk that needs to get cleaned up. Just because people don't have a lot of money for housing doesn't mean they should have to live with abandoned homes, flophouses and other blight.
I'm pretty sure this exact line of reasoning is why most of Lavilla is covered in grass.
It is and has been the go to reasoning used to raze most of the city for the last fifty years. It's why parts of downtown look like this:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/305820_standard.jpeg)
We'd be better off saving the demo money spent and having vacant buildings instead.
^ that picture is misleading - there are too many buildings in the image ;)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 26, 2020, 12:36:44 PM
It is and has been the go to reasoning used to raze most of the city for the last fifty years. It's why parts of downtown look like this:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/305820_standard.jpeg)
We'd be better off saving the demo money spent and having vacant buildings instead.
How much money did Jacksonville spend to demo that building?
ZERO.
How much money did Jacksonville spend to save that building?
ZERO.
What difference does it make to the community?
ZERO.
I'm not saying there ain't good things about having some nice old things. But you're going to have to persuade the people of the city that it's needed.
I suspect - and maybe I'm wrong - that most people in Jacksonville would rather see a million put into removing the trap houses plaguing their neighborhood than a million into yet another luxury apartment project they'll never be able to afford.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 27, 2020, 02:42:18 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 26, 2020, 12:36:44 PM
We'd be better off saving the demo money spent and having vacant buildings instead.
How much money did Jacksonville spend to demo that building?
ZERO.
Zero on that particular property, but a ton on the six blocks that make up the courthouse site in the same picture and a ton on the various other vacant lots surrounding that one building, with the wholesale razing the neighborhood in the 1990s. Downtown is more than one piece a property. You got to look at the bigger picture and also factor in the impact of lost economic opportunity.
QuoteWhat difference does it make to the community?
ZERO.
This is a pretty inaccurate and horrible position to take with just about any historic building still standing in LaVilla. These places hold tons of historic, cultural and sentimental value to former residents and patrons of these properties. My phone and emails are blowing up from various people and groups trying to figure out how to save and reuse what's left.
QuoteI'm not saying there ain't good things about having some nice old things. But you're going to have to persuade the people of the city that it's needed.
No need to persuade the people of Jacksonville. It's more of an issue of empowering a racially and economically disenfranchised community and having leadership in place that actually gives a damn to modify policies that stimulate change.
QuoteI suspect - and maybe I'm wrong - that most people in Jacksonville would rather see a million put into removing the trap houses plaguing their neighborhood than a million into yet another luxury apartment project they'll never be able to afford.
Most in the historic disenfranchised neighborhoods value adapative reuse and revitalization, as opposed to having overgrown blighted vacant lots or being displaced. Preservation and adaptive reuse are key potential solutions for not having your importance and ancestral history erased from existence by a group of people who simply don't understand but are privileged enough to have a seat at the decision making table to decide your own neighborhood's future.
Matt's Dad was instrumental in First Coast Outer Beltway ( then referred to as Brannon Chaffee).
Yea, probably a time to turn Inward.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 27, 2020, 03:40:10 PM
Most in the historic disenfranchised neighborhoods value adapative reuse and revitalization, as opposed to having overgrown blighted vacant lots or being displaced
What are you going on about? No one on the eastside cares that the kartouche was overgrown. They want a park with a playground near their house.
And blighted? Your drunk on your own kool aid. A building like Kartouche is the very defnition of blighted. There's a ton of literature of the psychological effects of that sort of blight, the vacant houses, the trash, the trap houses, the homeless camps.
You just dont' like their being empty lots downtown. So you scrape up some words off the floor and start tossing them around.
Downtown is overrated.
What matters is ending the dealing that goes on at Union & APR. That's why, after all, those people coming out of church got shot. The shitbags are idiots and they were fighting. And that corner _ALWAYS_ has someone dealing there.
What makes an immediate difference would be to deal with this abandoned house on the left, the one where people like to hang out and shoot up.
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=30.33838333333334&lng=-81.63876944444445&z=18.661849909377597&pKey=4932rtEYHJiy1yzlydH8Fw&focus=photo&x=0.3516088460293417&y=0.6681828074056414&zoom=0.8653553863656538
That's what matters. Whether or not some 1980s indoor shopping mall designed to look like Trump's orange hemorrhoid ring was demolished... THEY DO NOT CARE.
To be blunt, you sound like the elite. Ya got something you like and will manufacture some "reasons" for it. And you'll ignore what people actually value ___THE MOST ___. You're willing to stand up and claim that people are worried about preserving some old building more than stopping the killing?
Violence causes poverty.
Preserving history is a luxury. We need to sort out the open drug markets and violence to be able to build the wealth so we cna preserve things on scale. Until then we need to focus those efforts on things that are most important.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 29, 2020, 10:50:25 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 27, 2020, 03:40:10 PM
Most in the historic disenfranchised neighborhoods value adapative reuse and revitalization, as opposed to having overgrown blighted vacant lots or being displaced
What are you going on about? No one on the eastside cares that the kartouche was overgrown. They want a park with a playground near their house.
Lol, if you only knew what Eastsiders want. Over the last 24 hours, I've taken phone calls, responded to emails for future meetings and moderated a virtual panel discussion about race with multiple Eastsiders. The common narrative from all of them is that they are interested in preserving the heritage, history, and culture of their neighborhood and seeing revitalization happen without them being displaced. I've taken similar calls and emails from various residents in Mixontown, LaVilla, Durkeeville and Moncrief over the last month, desiring the same thing. So what I'm sharing here, is exactly what I've been told by residents in these communities......They value adaptive reuse and revitalization, as opposed to having blighted vacant lots or being displaced. Since I'm actually on the ground with this particular topic and not just debating the merits online, the rest isn't worth a detailed response.
Springfield would be multiple square miles of nothing but vacant lots if bl8jaxnative had been in control of it 30 years ago.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 29, 2020, 10:50:25 AM
Violence causes poverty.
Preserving history is a luxury. We need to sort out the open drug markets and violence to be able to build the wealth so we cna preserve things on scale. Until then we need to focus those efforts on things that are most important.
Pretty sure this is backwards. People being in economic despair with no end in sight begets violence. If people have economic opportunity and stability, the overwhelming majority won't want to commit violence. Why deal drugs if your day job pays you well enough? Why go gangbanging when your home life is stable enough and your parents attentive enough to focus you on school? When you provide a community with the ability to grow and improve itself, most people will lose the incentive for drugs and violence. Leaving them on the urban equivalent of desert islands with no hope, no history, and armies of police roaming the streets will only make things worse, as we should all be able to see right now.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 29, 2020, 10:50:25 AM
Preserving history is a luxury. We need to sort out the open drug markets and violence to be able to build the wealth so we cna preserve things on scale. Until then we need to focus those efforts on things that are most important.
Right now on the personnel side of the COJ budget, $.50 of every $1 goes to JSO. Another $.25 of that same dollar goes to JFRD. Said differently, after spending 75% of the COJ budget on employees, we've staffed JSO and JFRD. The FY21 Budget Book is on coj.net if you'd like to validate this.
Something tells me just throwing money at a problem isn't going to help it, and perhaps working to revitalize a neighborhood is a far better option. Vacant lots as it turns out doesn't really fix the neighborhood.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 30, 2020, 01:50:53 PM
Springfield would be multiple square miles of nothing but vacant lots if bl8jaxnative had been in control of it 30 years ago.
Yea, but think of what it would be now if that had happened: we'd have Argyle Forest directly adjacent to Downtown, instead of way out in the boonies. How cool would that be!
What might have been, what might have been . . .
Quote from: thelakelander on August 29, 2020, 04:34:27 PM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 29, 2020, 10:50:25 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 27, 2020, 03:40:10 PM
Most in the historic disenfranchised neighborhoods value adapative reuse and revitalization, as opposed to having overgrown blighted vacant lots or being displaced
What are you going on about? No one on the eastside cares that the kartouche was overgrown. They want a park with a playground near their house.
Lol, if you only knew what Eastsiders want. Over the last 24 hours, I've taken phone calls, responded to emails for future meetings and moderated a virtual panel discussion about race with multiple Eastsiders. The common narrative from all of them is that they are interested in preserving the heritage, history, and culture of their neighborhood and seeing revitalization happen without them being displaced. I've taken similar calls and emails from various residents in Mixontown, LaVilla, Durkeeville and Moncrief over the last month, desiring the same thing. So what I'm sharing here, is exactly what I've been told by residents in these communities......They value adaptive reuse and revitalization, as opposed to having blighted vacant lots or being displaced. Since I'm actually on the ground with this particular topic and not just debating the merits online, the rest isn't worth a detailed response.
Some people just need to quit while they're very far behind.