https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/former-kartouche-night-club-building-downtown-in-review-for-demolition (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/former-kartouche-night-club-building-downtown-in-review-for-demolition)
One of the last buildings in that area with a direct link back to the days of it being a small Greek district. Can't wait to see the types of variances requested (and granted) to allow for a suburban gas station on a full DT block.
There are acres of grass around it and they can't find anywhere else to build a gas station?
Nope. Got to have one that sucks up an entire city block. Funny thing is our policies are so screwed up, we'll spend more time reviewing and debating crape mrytles vs palm trees and knee walls for the gas station parking lot than we will reviewing the demolition permit for historic site. On the bright side, the gas station convenience store may be the closest thing the Northbank gets to being considered a grocery store (outside of the one that already exists.....Harvey's) for the next several years.
Isn't this the building Steve Williams was looking at a few years ago to move Harbinger Sign into?
There's literally an entire empty City block across the street... Since as a country we're cleaning up our past we should change the name of the City to Raze, since that's our favorite pastime
Yes, an empty block owned by someone else! This has higher visibility and traffic counts (more preferable for a gas station user) and is owned by a different entity (this property owner wants the money in their pockets and not the neighbor's). Without direction or a vision for areas like this in downtown, what plays out is typically left to the property owner and potential buyers. So the general outcome we get is the same we've received for decades. If we want to change, we have to change our DT development strategies. So far, we haven't been willing to do that in a way that would guide the market as opposed to react to it.
Lake, I recall we discussed this on another thread and even shared examples of incorporating an historic structure like this into the convenience store/station. Can we link the threads together?
Doro, First Baptist, Fire Station 5, the Landing, old City Hall/Courthouse, Kartouche... and that's just in the last 12 months or so. Just disgraceful, disrespectful, insulting, regrettable, sad, and wasteful that Jacksonville continues to destroy its past with abandon. Add what the Port's dredging will do to the ecology of the St. Johns River for ever and ever.
What world do our elected officials come from that they have no backbone or desire to stand up to this destruction of the character and history of our community? It's all about the dollar, quality of life and future generations be damned. Maybe it will be a blessing when rising seas bury the City under several feet of water (another need we are not seriously addressing) and put us out of our misery 8).
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 08, 2020, 10:34:20 AM
Isn't this the building Steve Williams was looking at a few years ago to move Harbinger Sign into?
.
Nope, that one burned down. I think I was next door to this one.
When I look at that aerial photo/shot, and see all of the empty lots, why does "bombing" come into mind? Because those lots look like someone bombed them and then razed them and left them empty. What a sorrowful sight.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on July 08, 2020, 01:34:51 PM
There's literally an entire empty City block across the street... Since as a country we're cleaning up our past we should change the name of the City to Raze, since that's our favorite pastime
Razesonville, or how about bombsonville, or, demolitionsonville.
I am planning on raising holy hell with a few elected officials on this one. I have a meeting with a city councilman at 10 today largely to discuss FBC demolition decision. Who would have thought the news about this building would have come out the night before?!
I left at 18 and didn't come back for a long time, but I remember being so fed up with Jax as a teenager watching bad decisions constantly being made in slow-mo, and now I'm back for less than a year and it's literally WORSE now at a time when it's better in every other city. It's literal insanity what goes on with downtown decision making.
I really want to try to be involved. Almost every single thing in this city that is cool and gives it character and draws people is a business in an adaptive reuse or otherwise just old building. We have very little of it left in certain parts and we want to destroy them no questions asked?
Where the hell is the Chamber's voice on this? They do jack shit... All these stupid trips to other cities and they never actually bring any wisdom back. Having a cool old building stock is good for business and economic development!! Where are their voices on anything?! Most wasteful organization in this city.
Lori Boyer is quoted as not even knowing a thing about the demolition or proposed new use. That's insane. That's how this city operates? She's trying to revive downtown and get small business programs going and incentive programs and this is pretty much a significant building and significant plans and she's left completely out of the loop?
The building is built in 1914. It's one of the last old buildings in LaVilla and has a history there. It's one of the last remaining buildings from the Harlem of the South, and yet there are no qualms about razing it? LeAnn Cumber probably thinks historic designations for such buildings are a violation of private property rights (forget the fact that basic zoning with its requirements can easily place severe limitations on what can be developed, but I guess that's ok?).
I'm not a protester or even one to support the BLM movement at its core, but I'd love to join up the black community in protesting the demolition of this building. It has a history within the black community, even recently I'd say with its previous use as Club Kartouche, and DV8 before that. In the era of BLM and all the spotlight on supporting the black community, I'm surprised this can even fly!!
Lake, I'm going to try emailing you again because I'd still like to meet up and pick your brain, also see how I can get more involved these days with stuff like this... You haven't responded to my previous emails.
^Unfortunately, it has become worse since you left, which is kind of crazy considering the economic period we were in before the pandemic. We have tools on the books for preservation but our leaders aren't proactively using or supporting them. As such, what's happening downtown is quite predictable. Lately, I've been helping, advising and empowering communities outside of downtown because there's even less focus on preservation and adaptive reuse there. However, we should be able to save some LaVilla buildings (excluding this one unfortunately). Shoot me an email. I'm working in town now, at least through August, so I'm pretty flexible at the moment.
Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2020, 07:33:04 AM
I am planning on raising holy hell with a few elected officials on this one. I have a meeting with a city councilman at 10 today largely to discuss FBC demolition decision. Who would have thought the news about this building would have come out the night before?!
I left at 18 and didn't come back for a long time, but I remember being so fed up with Jax as a teenager watching bad decisions constantly being made in slow-mo, and now I'm back for less than a year and it's literally WORSE now at a time when it's better in every other city. It's literal insanity what goes on with downtown decision making.
I really want to try to be involved. Almost every single thing in this city that is cool and gives it character and draws people is a business in an adaptive reuse or otherwise just old building. We have very little of it left in certain parts and we want to destroy them no questions asked?
Where the hell is the Chamber's voice on this? They do jack shit... All these stupid trips to other cities and they never actually bring any wisdom back. Having a cool old building stock is good for business and economic development!! Where are their voices on anything?! Most wasteful organization in this city.
Lori Boyer is quoted as not even knowing a thing about the demolition or proposed new use. That's insane. That's how this city operates? She's trying to revive downtown and get small business programs going and incentive programs and this is pretty much a significant building and significant plans and she's left completely out of the loop?
The building is built in 1914. It's one of the last old buildings in LaVilla and has a history there. It's one of the last remaining buildings from the Harlem of the South, and yet there are no qualms about razing it? LeAnn Cumber probably thinks historic designations for such buildings are a violation of private property rights (forget the fact that basic zoning with its requirements can easily place severe limitations on what can be developed, but I guess that's ok?).
I'm not a protester or even one to support the BLM movement at its core, but I'd love to join up the black community in protesting the demolition of this building. It has a history within the black community, even recently I'd say with its previous use as Club Kartouche, and DV8 before that. In the era of BLM and all the spotlight on supporting the black community, I'm surprised this can even fly!!
Lake, I'm going to try emailing you again because I'd still like to meet up and pick your brain, also see how I can get more involved these days with stuff like this... You haven't responded to my previous emails.
Two issues:
1. Beggars can't be choosers. The Downtown core will basically take whatever it can get, regarding development. That's been the attitude. And in fairness, that's a rational perspective - noone with vision & money is beating down the door to acquire buildings like this.
2. Talk is cheap. While there has been a fair amount of online discussion about how something should change regarding demos and renovation incentives, there's been little actual action or organizing around it. Steve Williams (Harbinger) has sort of been the face of the new effort to address these issues, via #mappingjax, but it's more of a passion hobby for him, not his fulltime focus.
Something as simple as:
- Calling a large meeting of like minded folks
- Identifying low hanging fruit
- Strategizing how to influence COJ
hasn't been done. These are easy steps. But, it takes someone with the time, energy and skill set to lead. I could do this, as I'm sure others associated with The Jaxson & beyond could, but it hasn't risen to be enough of a priority for X person yet. Is that person you? I'm down to be a lieutenant, just not the general.
#mappingjax started with great intentions and has generated a large following, but the FB portion has really gone off the rails and has become a place to complain about whatever you don't like about Jax. I know there are some important people within the group and I hope that they are sticking to the mission offline, but I have stopped checking in because the FB community has lost focus.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on July 09, 2020, 10:34:03 AM
Two issues:
1. Beggars can't be choosers. The Downtown core will basically take whatever it can get, regarding development. That's been the attitude. And in fairness, that's a rational perspective - noone with vision & money is beating down the door to acquire buildings like this.
Except that we're not really beggars and we are pretty choosy. Two examples.
A. Sleiman attempted to redo the Landing for years and even had a deal worked out with Alvin Brown for $12 million in public subsidies. That project would have been done by now. Brown lost his reelection bid, Curry blew up that deal and then paid Sleiman nearly twice as much to leave and raze the building. Now we have less foot traffic and business than ever in the Northbank, Sleiman is investing his profits restoring properties in San Marco and Lakewood and we're left hoping to give Khan +$200 million to build something similar a mile east.
B. We were going to give Vestcor three free blocks of land in LaVilla under the assumption that no one was interested in LaVilla. Turns out, developers were and came with two competiting proposals. One was clearly better for the taxpayer, LaVilla and downtown. Yet, we found a way to give that deal to Vestcor, and have Vestcor incorporate aspects of the superior proposal. Despite being "beggars", we still have not opened the door to RFP more properties.
C. One more....a few years back, the DIA did a RFP for a property on the 300 block of Broad Street that COJ had not maintained in 20 years. Multiple developers responded but were not willing to pay the price the DIA wanted (even $10k was more than Vestcor initially offered for the three blocks down the street that they wanted for free). All proposals were rejected and the property continues to fall in on itself.
The narrative that we're beggars is an incorrect one. On the other hand, we are way too choosy. If we were a bit more inclusive but also providing more guidance and direction to the private sector, we'd be way further along with revitalization than where we are right now.
Quote2. Talk is cheap. While there has been a fair amount of online discussion about how something should change regarding demos and renovation incentives, there's been little actual action or organizing around it. Steve Williams (Harbinger) has sort of been the face of the new effort to address these issues, via #mappingjax, but it's more of a passion hobby for him, not his fulltime focus.
Something as simple as:
- Calling a large meeting of like minded folks
- Identifying low hanging fruit
- Strategizing how to influence COJ
hasn't been done. These are easy steps. But, it takes someone with the time, energy and skill set to lead. I could do this, as I'm sure others associated with The Jaxson & beyond could, but it hasn't risen to be enough of a priority for X person yet. Is that person you? I'm down to be a lieutenant, just not the general.
There are some people working behind the scenes, including a few associated with Mapping Jax. Yet, the task is a monumental one and will take mounds of volunteer time to overcome paid lobbyiest time and political connections. With that in mind, expect a few buildings like Kartouche to be lost while some others like the Universal Marion building may be saved. It will be this way until there's enough momentum from the mayors office or council to change the way we do business downtown.
While I'm at it, let me further explain what needs to immediately be done to save as much as possible until there's momentum for policy change or a leader emerges from the council or mayors office.
1. We need to landmark as many unprotected historic structures downtown as possible in the short term....before development proposals materialize. It's too late for the Doros, TU and Kartouche Buildings. All have active development projects associated with them and no one in city hall is going pull the rug from under them. Those three are 100% unprotected buildings. The FBC Sunday School building had policy on its side (being a contributing structure to the downtown national register historic district), triggering HPC review and the church simply hired a well known attorney to appeal straight to council, who overrode HPC altogether. The one way to stop what council did (or at least make it super difficult) would have been to landmark the building years before FBC went broke and proposed demolition.
2. I already have a list of buildings that are landmarked. In short, there aren't many. So focus should be on reaching out to supporting property owners and helping them get their properties landmarked while the support is there. Council is pretty reactive as opposed to proactive and they likely won't go against a property owner who desires to landmark their property.
3. More national register historic district designations are needed for older communities throughout town. This designation won't eliminate demolitions but it will trigger HPC review for demolition of contributing structures within their boundaries. It will also open the door to tax credits, grants and preservation incentives for various properties within the district's boundaries. It also paves the way for potential local historic districts.
None of these things are as sexy as starting threads, protests and polls online in opposition or showing up last minute at public meetings where decisions have already been decided, but they are quite effective at giving the community a larger voice and some political power in preserving its historic, culture and authenticity.
Thank you.
That sort of stuff is what's needed to help guide the process.
I had been keeping an eye on this on through Loopnet and very recently it appeared to be 'Under Contract'. That being said on Loopnet sometimes a for sale property is suddenly NOT FOR SALE. Very curious what the status is. I don't think coj.net is up to date on this property.
I was hoping for a reuse. When these are for sale someone with a vision for reuse better step up or they will be gone.
Are there any changes to laws that need to be made? It seems like if the owner is against designation or just doesn't bother to designate; it will eventually fall to the full council who seem to fall back on the excuse that since the building was never landmarked before, it must not be important now.
Giving the historical society or the HPC power to begin researching (and filing if appropriate) historical designation of buildings they deem fit would be the way to go. This process always seems to happen when an owner wants to "develop", which leads to owners fighting the status and the council falling on the old excuse I mentioned above because we can't stop development.
^Yes, our preservation and incentives policies could use a bit more teeth to make adaptive reuse and historic preservation more financially feasible and equitable. I doubt that the historical society is the answer but HPC having more power would not hurt.
It would also be helpful if a few more people (companies....) with resources and a passion for renovating these building lived (or wanted to do business) in Jacksonville. It appears that the folks who want to demolish outnumber the folks who want to preserve. Get that flipped and you get better outcomes for restoration.
I think there are people and developers interested in preservation. The ultimate problem for the private sector has been the financial gap between what it cost to bring a place back online vs what you can make from the finished investment. As long as that outcome is financially unfeasible for the private sector, we'll have limited success. As long as the gap is there, the only projects that will bubble up will involve demolition and low density market rate replacements like gas stations. Most of the long vacant places demoed in recent years have had developers interested in them at some point. Even IAW looked at Kartouche years ago before opening in Riverside and ultimately in another historic building in downtown. So if we can figure out the gap situation, that would go a long way as well and help end the belief that no one is interested in restoring older buildings.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 10, 2020, 09:40:21 AM
I think there are people and developers interested in preservation. The ultimate problem for the private sector has been the financial gap between what it cost to bring a place back online vs what you can make from the finished investment. As long as that outcome is financially unfeasible for the private sector, we'll have limited success. As long as the gap is there, the only projects that will bubble up will involve demolition and low density market rate replacements like gas stations. Most of the long vacant places demoed in recent years have had developers interested in them at some point. Even IAW looked at Kartouche years ago before opening in Riverside and ultimately in another historic building in downtown. So if we can figure out the gap situation, that would go a long way as well and help end the belief that no one is interested in restoring older buildings.
We don't have the money to give to these developers. We're giving it all to the mega project pipe dreams.
Lean times lol
From the public record it appears personal injury attorney Mark Rosenberg will be the owner/developer. He owns all the parcels around it, not just the old drive through.
The more force is used in regard to historical preservation w/out matching public funds, the more likely you are to chase away the rare developers interested in these projects.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 10, 2020, 09:40:21 AM
I think there are people and developers interested in preservation. The ultimate problem for the private sector has been the financial gap between what it cost to bring a place back online vs what you can make from the finished investment. As long as that outcome is financially unfeasible for the private sector, we'll have limited success. As long as the gap is there, the only projects that will bubble up will involve demolition and low density market rate replacements like gas stations. Most of the long vacant places demoed in recent years have had developers interested in them at some point. Even IAW looked at Kartouche years ago before opening in Riverside and ultimately in another historic building in downtown. So if we can figure out the gap situation, that would go a long way as well and help end the belief that no one is interested in restoring older buildings.
There's some degree of this happening already, via LISC. But far too little.
Not sure LISC is allowed in DT. In that past, that's been the DIA's, JEDC's and DDA's area of control. Hopefully we can find a way to expand these resources.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 10, 2020, 01:50:59 PM
Not sure LISC is allowed in DT. In that past, that's been the DIA's, JEDC's and DDA's area of control. Hopefully we can find a way to expand these resources.
LISC financed FSCJ's 20 West dormitory restoration project and they are also supportive of the Cathedral District so it appears they do participate in DT. As a non-profit, they would probably have to work only with another non-profit. Like the Historical Society, maybe Downtown Vision or a newly created nonprofit entity. And, it would have to further LISC's mission of community improvement.
They sure did. Thanks for the reminder. Don't see them as a solution to Jax's preservation ills but definitely glad to have them around and helping where feasible to their mission.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-approves-demolition-for-old-kartouche-nightclub
And the demo has been approved.
Quote from: JaxAvondale on July 24, 2020, 12:19:12 PM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-approves-demolition-for-old-kartouche-nightclub
And the demo has been approved.
Jacksonville sucks.
Surprised it took this long to get the permit approved.
Quote"A majority of that building is getting recycled," Pfotenhauer said.
"There are lot of old wood timbers in that building that are getting recycled," he said. Elev8 also will work to recycle the bricks.
If the bones of the building are that valuable, why not save the demolition effort and just "recycle" the whole building in place and preserve its historic character at the same time.
And, what does it say about Downtown, that a prime 1.4 acre city block's highest and best use is for a suburban style gas station and convenience store? Not much! Another not-pedestrian-friendly block to further diminish the character of being a downtown.
^This demolition is a good example of why local preservation policies and programs have failed. It also makes a supporting case for the DIA's proposal to revamp the Trust Fund. I do believe that if the Trust Fund was revamped a year or two ago, this is a demolition that would not be happening.
16 years ago when I moved from South Florida, Fort Lauderdale area to West Central Florida, Sarasota-Bradenton area (at my Mom's behest...I was moving back to Jax and she stopped me), Tampa's downtown was dead, just like Jax is today. Now it is popping, thriving, and numerous proposed "talls" on the board (400 feet or more). And...they have two 600 plus footers, with one rising from the ground right now being constructed, and the other planned and ready to go into the construction phase. When those are constructed, Tampa will have the tallest building(s) in Florida between Miami and Atlanta (Jax held that title for years with BOA). Lastly, back then there were a lot of vacant lots and parking lots in downtown Tampa; not many left, downtown Tampa is getting dense. My point? Nothing happening in Jax except proposed construction and building that may never get on the board to planning and certainly not construction phase; I say this because Jax leadership's track record is nil, and poor in that regard, they cannot be trusted to work on behalf of downtown and/or the city relative to real prosperity and success, and yes, to stack up with the other top 20 cities in the nation (Jax is #12 in population). It just irks me and I am ashamed, not of Jax itself, but ashamed of the substandard and misfit leaders. That is all for now.
It could be a matter of leadership.
But if it was that, then why didn't Tampa have sooner? Why don't we see this sort of density and activity in other well ran cities like Salt Lake, Providence, Fargo or Boulder?
IMHO there are 3 main drivers:
a) millennial coming of age; largest generation ever
b) foreign money
c) cheap capital
millennials are hitting their 40s and foreigners don't have capital that they're desperately trying to offshore ( buying US assets is offshore for them ).
It may not turn out to be a bubble in Tampa. But don't be surprised to see that those 1/2 million dollar condos start selling for $300K in a few years.
for example
https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/foreign-real-estate-investors-funnel-millions-toward-tampa-bay-as-south/2166812/
So maybe in the end it's a matter of leadership. Not a need for yet another riverwalk extension or saving some 83 year old bldg shell. But leadership that can put together and attract the big hitters needed to change the perception of Jacksonville that is required to attract those foreign buyers and Gen Z?
Why is Jacksonville such a dump? The city is not well kept. It hasn't even replaced the balustrades on Memorial Park three years after a hurricane damaged them. One of it's potential positives was its historic (albeit run down) buildings. Now most of those have been torn down. It's sad that we will remain the least desirable city for redevelopment. Why is it this way?
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on July 27, 2020, 12:46:20 PM
It could be a matter of leadership.
But if it was that, then why didn't Tampa have sooner? Why don't we see this sort of density and activity in other well ran cities like Salt Lake, Providence, Fargo or Boulder?
IMHO there are 3 main drivers:
a) millennial coming of age; largest generation ever
b) foreign money
c) cheap capital
millennials are hitting their 40s and foreigners don't have capital that they're desperately trying to offshore ( buying US assets is offshore for them ).
It may not turn out to be a bubble in Tampa. But don't be surprised to see that those 1/2 million dollar condos start selling for $300K in a few years.
for example
https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/foreign-real-estate-investors-funnel-millions-toward-tampa-bay-as-south/2166812/
So maybe in the end it's a matter of leadership. Not a need for yet another riverwalk extension or saving some 83 year old bldg shell. But leadership that can put together and attract the big hitters needed to change the perception of Jacksonville that is required to attract those foreign buyers and Gen Z?
I still say a big part is leadership. We know that Jax is not Miami, Orlando, or Tampa, and overseas/foreign investors are not going to really take a long look, or even a short look at Jax in that investment arena. Well, if that is not Jax' niche, and platform for growth, success, etc., then find something else! Jax is too sleepy and no one wants to come to sleepiness or even gamble on sleepiness (build it and they will come?)...certainly not relative to Jax; build it in Jax, and not only will they not come, but it will probably sit half empty or be demolished for a parking lot in about 10 years. Yes, I believe it is in large part leadership; they certainly can do more regardless of what is happening in Tampa, Orlando, Miami and south Florida.
Quote from: PYMBER on July 27, 2020, 03:00:16 PM
Why is Jacksonville such a dump? The city is not well kept. It hasn't even replaced the balustrades on Memorial Park three years after a hurricane damaged them. One of it's potential positives was its historic (albeit run down) buildings. Now most of those have been torn down. It's sad that we will remain the least desirable city for redevelopment. Why is it this way?
The city has always been a dump. I grew up there and in the 80s it was worse than now in many areas...but the areas that looked worse are now vacant lots, so really it's just the illusion of looking better than it did then.
Parts of Springfield and Riverside have markedly improved, at least. But Jax has been a dump for a long long time. Even when they fix things (Friendship Fountain, the Riverwalk, Kids Kampus just to name the first three that immediately jumped to mind) the city fails to maintain them and they fall into disrepair fairly quickly.
But "the city" can only take so much of the blame. If enough residents cared, the city would see to it that it was less of a dump. Those of us who try to make any kind of a difference tend to get frustrated, give up and leave.
Quote from: PYMBER on July 27, 2020, 03:00:16 PM
Why is Jacksonville such a dump? The city is not well kept. It hasn't even replaced the balustrades on Memorial Park three years after a hurricane damaged them. One of it's potential positives was its historic (albeit run down) buildings. Now most of those have been torn down. It's sad that we will remain the least desirable city for redevelopment. Why is it this way?
It's "good ol boy" leadership that is more or less happy with the status quo of leading for the connected few rather than the overall community. Just look at zoning decisions, allocation of tax dollars in City contracts and for favored projects, road building and other infrastructure projects, etc. And, when is the last time you saw a long term vision/master plan for the City that actually was adhered to? Ever see the power brokers pushing for that?
This same group also likes low taxes so things either get done here on the cheap if done at all or we are looking for saviors like Khan to bail us out with pie-in-the-sky projects that often fleece the few dollars left for rank and file taxpayers. Since these power brokers are benefiting disproportionately from what is collected, they don't feel the impact of impaired city services. Their kids are in private schools so they aren't focused much on the public schools (this goes back to the 1950's and the 1960's when the entire school system was dis-accredited and, in an effort to protect private JU, obtaining a public 4 year university was not pushed for). Cities with top educational opportunities are typically thriving more than those that don't have them. For decades Jacksonville has lost out on attracting world class minds and personal energy due to its less than ideal educational opportunities. Our lack of a wide range of top graduate level programs adds to the lack of cutting edge thinking here.
Ultimately, it's the uninvolved, uncaring, uninformed and/or uneducated voters that keep electing poor leadership. They get snookered by promises of "ol fashioned" social mores that aren't normally in play in City issues (i.e. fixing potholes is not a partisan issue), who comes across as being more pious, tough law and order pronouncements, low tax promises, voting for whoever puts up the most signs or runs the nastiest TV ads (='s who has the most dollars from the good ol boys to pay for them) and voting for the "R" or "D" by the candidate's name rather than who is most qualified to do what is best for the whole city.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on July 27, 2020, 12:46:20 PM
But if it was that, then why didn't Tampa have sooner? Why don't we see this sort of density and activity in other well ran cities like Salt Lake, Providence, Fargo or Boulder?
Having been to Providence, I would say that City's downtown seemed pretty vibrant. It had high end retail stores, lots of residential development and a happening scene. Its buildings may not be the tallest but the core appeared to be bustling all day long implying some degree of density relative to its population base. Certainly had a lot more going for it than more populous Jacksonville.
Same goes for Salt Lake City and Boulder. Both of those central business districts are pretty vibrant. Bad use of them to attempt to prove that point.
A few images of Downtown Boulder from the Modern Cities photo archives page:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Denver-2019/i-WRmsPMt/0/acc2056b/X3/20191214_152250-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Denver-2019/i-SmfkGct/0/2f3c48df/X3/20191214_152329-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Denver-2019/i-v9sXC6z/0/b94b565f/X3/20191214_151702-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Denver-2019/i-svzK4Nk/0/27a62be9/X3/20191214_152537-X3.jpg)
Boulder is beautiful, and also incredibly affluent. I've visited and was very impressed by the streetscape. The amount of money there is palpable. The Denver area in general is really impressive in its recent growth
Boulder looks super and awesome. Though I like tall and supertall buildings (heights unknown), I would trade tall buildings for low height density and vibrancy any day. Super post Lake on Tampa, and I don't care what anyone says, to me, what they have done and are doing looks very well thought out and planned. And their Riverwalk looks much better than Jax's, and, you can see it was well thought out, planned, and is connected with numerous and various parks, and other significant public locations in the downtown. I live close to Tampa 50 miles south and go there often; exploding in my opinion in Tampa; St. Pete may not be exploding, but they have a dense, vibrant downtown. The skyscrapers are mostly residential with more residentials in the planning for the immediate future. Even Sarasota, within a handful of miles from me, is vibrant, dense, and everything seems well planned, thought out, with a focus on who or what the city is, and has been. I love Jax. I will move back if the world, and/or the U.S.A. doesn't incinerate; have to put that on hold for now due to COVID and family issues. I just wish the leadership of Jax would help to push and move the city in a more prosperous direction both in downtown and the city as a whole. If I were looking to move to Jax and had never been there, and saw a population of over 900,000, I would be excited; but I would also be disappointed when I got to Jax and saw that there is very little in the way of shopping, entertainment, etc., especially in the urban core and downtown; downtown is usually, and should be (and historically) the heart of any city in my opinion.
Kartouche coming down today? Can we filter through the debris for lumber?
Seriously? We started talking about this less than a month ago, and it's already going down?
It's that easy to demolish a historic building in downtown Jacksonville? My God.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Jacksonville-Demolitions/i-kJxx243/0/6cf8e28e/X2/DSCF5823-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Jacksonville-Demolitions/i-Jhq4mtC/0/f1920ad3/X2/DSCF5822-X2.jpg)
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 01, 2020, 12:46:24 PM
Seriously? We started talking about this less than a month ago, and it's already going down?
It's that easy to demolish a historic building in downtown Jacksonville? My God.
Yes, it is insanely easy. Unfortunately, that's why parts of downtown look like a war zone today.
"A majority of that building is getting recycled," Pfotenhauer said.
"There are lot of old wood timbers in that building that are getting recycled," he said. Elev8 also will work to recycle the bricks."
Having just driven by the site, I beg to differ. The excavator was pulling some large individual timbers from the wreckage as I watched but it certainly appeared the vast majority of that place is going into the landfill. And yes, bricks everywhere.
Amazing. Simply frickin amazing.
Quote from: MusicMan on August 01, 2020, 05:11:23 PM
"A majority of that building is getting recycled," Pfotenhauer said.
"There are lot of old wood timbers in that building that are getting recycled," he said. Elev8 also will work to recycle the bricks."
Having just driven by the site, I beg to differ. The excavator was pulling some large individual timbers from the wreckage as I watched but it certainly appeared the vast majority of that place is going into the landfill. And yes, bricks everywhere.
Most recycling ends up doing that so that would be par for course.
Just rode past this morning on the bike and saw the timbers sitting on the property.. here's a picture.
(https://i.imgur.com/YDmoAp1.jpg)
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 01, 2020, 12:46:24 PM
Seriously? We started talking about this less than a month ago, and it's already going down?
It's that easy to demolish a historic building in downtown Jacksonville? My God.
(https://www.visitjacksonville.com/imager/s3_amazonaws_com/visitjax-2018/craft-images/easier-here-toolkit/jax_sticker_its_easier_here_final_77a996cadb6acd997fdd4924ba23cc85.jpg)
On a slightly related topic, was there any fallout from the demolition of the Greyhound Bus Station and its conversation into an unpermitted/unauthorized use as a parking lot?
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dailys-developer-buys-downtown-lavilla-property-for-dollar3-3-million
Even if didn't necessitate the demolition of yet another historic building, this is still an unfortunate place to put a gas station.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/305820_standard.jpeg)
Does the DDRB just shrug their shoulders and roll with it?
Are there any examples full-sized gas stations being well designed to complement and fit in with the surrounding urban fabric?
Is there any urban fabric left there? I see a lot of parking garages so someone will need gas and a squishy...
Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 25, 2020, 04:08:23 PM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dailys-developer-buys-downtown-lavilla-property-for-dollar3-3-million
Even if didn't necessitate the demolition of yet another historic building, this is still an unfortunate place to put a gas station.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/305820_standard.jpeg)
Does the DDRB just shrug their shoulders and roll with it?
Are there any examples full-sized gas stations being well designed to complement and fit in with the surrounding urban fabric?
That picture is sad.
It looks like a war zone.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 25, 2020, 04:16:10 PM
Is there any urban fabric left there?
More and more, Downtown looks like a suburban office park with a few high rises accidentally thrown in ;D.
And with office parks like Flagler Center littered with multiple apartment complexes, even the residential component doesn't change things.
There really isn't much downtown left in our Downtown it seems. Lots of grassy fields, surface lots, garages, suburban style office and apartment buildings, buildings with their backs turned to the streets, demolished historic buildings that had real character ... and now, a suburban style gas station. Take out the theaters and what's left?
^Basically the core of the Northbank, the Cathedral District and a sliver of LaVilla around Broad and Ashley. It really is a shame. However, it does pinpoint where the biggest focus of downtown revitalization should be.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 25, 2020, 04:08:23 PM
Does the DDRB just shrug their shoulders and roll with it?
Are there any examples full-sized gas stations being well designed to complement and fit in with the surrounding urban fabric?
Not sure the DDRB has any real power other than guide realistic cosmetic changes to projects submitted for design approval. The damage is already done my friend. This isn't going to be an urban gas station. Urban gas stations don't need a full city block. It also isn't going to be something outside of the Daily's standard design. So we can forget about mixed-use unless the mix of uses is a car wash, gas pumps and a store carrying gummi bears, beer, coffee and sandwiches. It will be a suburban gas station. The biggest design debate will be how the convenience store interacts with the adjacent sidewalk (heck, which block do you even choose?) and what kind of plants and knee walls will surround the parking apron. I totally expect something similar to the Brooklyn Gate gas station.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/more-amenities-for-downtown-is-what-downtown-needs-dvi-ceo-says-as-dailys-parent-buys-lavilla-block
QuoteJake Gordon, CEO of Downtown Vision Inc., said Aug. 25 that he had a mixed reaction when the Kartouche was demolished, but realizes what Daily's would bring Downtown, although he has not confirmed it will be a gas station and convenience store.
"More amenities for Downtown is what Downtown needs," he said. "We are always of a mind that the historical part of Downtown can continue but at the same time, Downtown is about progress."
Love the flippancy about a 106-year-old building.
The use of the word "can" instead of "should" here speaks volumes.
Ah yes, progress.
If we define demolition in exchange for lack of density as progress, Jacksonville has gone light years ahead! Curry fulfilled his promise! Downtown really will be unrecognizable by 2023!