Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/2019-Downtown-Endangered-Building-List/i-p3ZwQjh/0/0fb85d7e/L/20200201_112815-L.jpg)
Jacksonville's assualt on downtown's history continues as First Baptist Church presses forward on its plans to raze the historically significant Sunday school building. City Council has the power to stop the madness. Here are three reasons the Council should allow the Historic Preservation Commission to prepare a report and make a qualified recommendation for Council to consider prior to approving or rejecting the church's demolition request.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/why-council-should-send-fbc-demo-decision-back-to-hpc/
Emails sent to all 19 council members. Bill number is 2020-0188. Tonight is the night. If it's approved, then it's done unless someone takes it to court. If it's denied then JHPS meets tomorrow and it sounds like it will recommend landmarking.
JHPC meets tomorrow?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2020, 11:36:09 AM
JHPC meets tomorrow?
Yes
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/first-baptist-appeal-to-tear-down-building-advances-to-full-city-council
QuoteChristian Popoli, city planner supervisor for the Community Planning Division, Historic Preservation Section, told the committee June 16 that his staff intends to recommend the property receive the historic status when he presents the final report to the commission June 24.
Wow, I wish I would have read that before sending my letter off to council. That just raises more questions and concerns. They seriously need to raise $15 million? If I were a member, I'd have serious concerns about my dwindling congregation being stuck with $30 million in debt on any type of building project. As an urban planner and preservationist, I'd also call baloney on that the welcome center as designed is the only way they can stay downtown. Getting people in and out of those buildings worked just fine for decades when the church was larger (remember the larger auditoriums weren't built until the 1970s/80s/90s). Heck, at this point, one can make an strong argument that it would be in the best interest of all if they left downtown completely, since they help depress it due to not consistently activiting its properties with pedestrian scale uses. Another safe play for council could be to tie the demolition permit with a construction permit, similar to what DDRB did with Doro. That will keep the worst case and most likely scenario from happening, which is they demolish and still fail to get financed, leaving another smoldering hole of direct in the heart of downtown.
Listened to the council meeting last week and the argument is that the building is not functionally suitable for their needs and the floors are off by a half floor so the ground floor is a half floor above street level. Right when you walk in there is two staircases, one up and one down so there is no real lobby. Their struggle is that this can't move the thousands of people that walk through this area if they relocate to one central block.
FBC team (team meaning architects and attorneys along with their staff) presented their plans showing the discrepancies on how it would look if they made it work with the existing building and how altering the structural integrity would jeopardize the building and/or cost millions more. Then showed the new plans and how it all aligns to their Hobson Auditorium.
Anyways, my gut feeling is this gets approved for demo based off the information presented by both parties. Unfortunate.
Lastly, next week, the FBC congregation will vote on their fiscal 2020-2021 budget and their budget has taken a significant reduction YOY. Down around 17-18%.
QuoteListened to the council meeting last week and the argument is that the building is not functionally suitable for their needs and the floors are off by a half floor so the ground floor is a half floor above street level. Right when you walk in there is two staircases, one up and one down so there is no real lobby. Their struggle is that this can't move the thousands of people that walk through this area if they relocate to one central block.
Yeah, I'd seriously question that or the need to shuttle "thousands" of people through a single entrance. Many larger congregations successfully move people in and out of their historic facilities. Hell, mall esplanades don't need to be that wide to accommodate people. I do believe there are a variety of options available. Various forms of preserving the facade could be viable as well. The problem is FBC leadership wants that modern looking thing instead of preservation. The extension of the client's preference means the architects, engineers and attorneys on their dime will craft an argument to support the client's position. It's the classic old Jax story of believing new is better than old. Not confident Council will question it though. To truly vet, you'd need an independent party not beholden to the client.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/First-Baptist-Church-Downtown-Jacksonville/i-fRW5RXx/0/76a0e9b3/L/Sunday%20School%20Canopy%20Idea_Page_1-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/First-Baptist-Church-Downtown-Jacksonville/i-nW5NhnP/0/078ea85c/L/Sunday%20School%20Canopy%20Idea_Page_2-L.jpg)
Regardless of that, they don't have financing and it's not given that they'll get financing. At a minimum, even if I'm a council member willing to glaze over Section 307.104 of the Code of Ordinances because I personally feel sorry for FBC, I'd tie the demolition and building permits together. That keeps you from ending up with a vacant piece of dirt.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on June 23, 2020, 02:34:31 PM
FBC team (team meaning architects and attorneys along with their staff) presented their plans showing the discrepancies on how it would look if they made it work with the existing building and how altering the structural integrity would jeopardize the building and/or cost millions more. Then showed the new plans and how it all aligns to their Hobson Auditorium.
I'd like to see what those "making it work" plans look like. I'm not sure why "jeopardizing the building" is that much of a concern for them when they're asking to demolish it.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2020, 02:58:56 PM
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/First-Baptist-Church-Downtown-Jacksonville/i-fRW5RXx/0/76a0e9b3/L/Sunday%20School%20Canopy%20Idea_Page_1-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/First-Baptist-Church-Downtown-Jacksonville/i-nW5NhnP/0/078ea85c/L/Sunday%20School%20Canopy%20Idea_Page_2-L.jpg)
It's really that simple. I imagine there could be some practical changes (signage, bollards for safety, improving the facade at pedestrian level) but this is really halfway there.
Quote
Regardless of that, they don't have financing and it's not given that they'll get financing. At a minimum, even if I'm a council member willing to glaze over Section 307.104 of the Code of Ordinances because I personally feel sorry for FBC, I'd tie the demolition and building permits together. That keeps you from ending up with a vacant piece of dirt.
It really does seem like they should consider moving to Nocatee. I'd be impressed if they could really find $15 million at a time like this. In an unrelated side note, I always wondered how the pastor could get from Nocatee to Downtown so quickly.
Demolition was approved 15-4:
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200623/jacksonville-city-council-oks-first-baptist-church-plan-to-demolish-93-year-old-building
Interesting quotes!
QuoteCity Councilman Danny Becton asked his colleagues to defer the decision until the preservation commission could more fully vet whether the church building should be considered a landmark, but only two other council members agreed.
Quote"I keep hearing this is historical and it's a landmark. It's not," said Councilman Al Ferraro. "In a lot of tours of historical buildings, this is never put in there."
City Councilwoman LeAnna Cumber said the issue was even simpler than that.
"This is a pure property rights issue," she said Tuesday before voting to allow the demolition.
QuoteBecton argued the church's appeal of the preservation commission decision was a "very rare, if ever, used" tactic that "probably has not happened in our recollection."
"Maybe we should at least let the process vet whether it is a historical landmark before approving the demolition," he said.
QuoteBut City Councilman Reggie Gaffney, who supported the demolition, said allowing the demolition would better serve downtown.
"We have the authority today to make this decision and allow this church to move forward and try to develop this," Gaffney said. "They're going to build something we'll be proud of."
Quote"They're going to build something we'll be proud of."
Oh dear.
The next 10 years for FBC should be interesting. Senior leadership and staff has turned over with a new team over the last few years. Younger group of pastors now and a lot of things have reason been overhauled. You'll see less of them making noise around political issues like the old regime and rather focus on their congregation. From their standpoint, they've inherited a lot of the financial problems that were kicked down the road from previous leadership (maybe a reason the old pastor stepped down suddenly). Maintenance issues on their buildings are compounding, attendance is down and in turn tithes/offerings are down. What was once a church with a strong foothold is going through a challenging time.
Their plan to right size the church campus could save their presence downtown but like I said, they bought 10 more years imo to see if this all can come together. My opinion, their plan could work out as they are creating multiple services and an intimate environment. Their current facility is a full block fortress that you can really walk into the sanctuary and not say a word to anyone the way the building is laid out.
The smaller scale really can help create more of a church/worshipful experience feel instead of a 4th errr 3rd quarter of a Jaguars game where everyone is peppered in. .
Lastly, wish the church the best in their plans. They got what they wanted. This is make or break for them and right now it's an uphill challenge trying to grow membership when churches like Eleven22 and Celebration are bringing in thousands of members each week in prime suburban locations.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2020, 06:27:30 PM
Demolition was approved 15-4:
Lake, this is very sad. Especially some of the absurd quotes made by council persons explaining their votes. No appreciation for architecture, history or character of the City. But, not surprising. A land use lawyer told me long ago, you can not beat a church in a land use battle in this town, no matter how strong your arguments or legal position. And if you go to court, the judges will be just like the elected officials and rule against you. So, save your money and don't try fighting a church. So much, too, for separation of church and state.
In this case, FBC also had Hainline, a Curry buddy, as their attorney. Despite the JEA fiasco, it looks like Curry still has something of a hold on some council members. Disappointing to see. Do you know the names of the 4 who voted to deny/delay?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 23, 2020, 10:42:40 PM
Do you know the names of the 4 who voted to deny/delay?
Becton, Boylan, DeFoor, and Carlucci.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/council-vote-means-first-baptist-can-demolish-a-downtown-building
Quote"Frankly, I'm tired of buildings getting torn down in Jacksonville," Carlucci said. "We keep losing piece by piece parts of our fabric that make Jacksonville what it is and our charm."
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 23, 2020, 11:01:52 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 23, 2020, 10:42:40 PM
Do you know the names of the 4 who voted to deny/delay?
Becton, Boylan, DeFoor, and Carlucci.
Not surprised by the list. That's 4 that have recently shown some backbone to business as usual in the River City. DeFoor and Carlucci, respectively, have roots in the more historic Riverside and San Marco areas. Boylan has had fights over historic buildings in Mandarin (where Hazouri also has roots).
Surprised that Cumber didn't side with them since she represents San Marco. Looks like Gaffney represents historic Springfield and Downtown so you would have thought he might be supportive but he blows with the wind it seems so no surprise he dropped out. Morgan has a few historic buildings in Arlington so she also could have been sympathetic to this cause. Add Dennis who represents the historic Rail Yard District and can usually be counted on to side against friends of the mayor and you would have had at least 9 votes if all of the above fell in line. One more to make a majority might have joined them if they thought their vote would make a difference and they would have political cover as part of the majority. Refer to my prior post for why none of this seemed to matter here.
Cumber has been a little disappointing here. Her citing property rights doesn't make sense to me, given that I don't see a difference here compared with Penn Central vs. New York (the supreme court case that established precedent for historic designation).
Getting a majority vote against FBC by Council was always going to be tough hill to take. They may not have the membership they use to have but they historically have had a perception of power.
The bad thing is this makes it even easier to short-cut the process and not preserve the next historic building that comes into danger. Bostwick aside, there really haven't been many victories for preservation. There use to be very few and far between, but that may have improved marginally. It hasn't been a sea change though.
There just isn't a constituency for preservation in the city, and the powers that be just don't get it.
The powers to be don't get it. That's pretty clear at this point.
The preservation victories are largely private sector driven. When driven by the private sector, the council doesn't fight back. So it's as if they're largely indifferent to the issue and how it plays a role in urban revitalization. It's been pretty rough the last couple of years but some wins include The Barnett, Life of the South, Lerner Shops, Haydon Burns Library, New Center Hotel. Others appear to be the Ambassador, Old Independent Life, Fire Station No. 4, Jones Brothers Furniture, etc. Overall, there hasn't been much going on in the Northbank. Certainly not any new construction. All Curry's big ticket development projects have been demolitions. From that perspective, one could make the argument that all we've seen in the Northbank is adaptive reuse of older structures, which makes the case for preservation of the remaining building stock.
Lake by any chance do you have a number for what has been spent on demolition vs revitalization downtown over the last 5-10 years? I imagine the demo number is substantially more... Old Courthouse, ramps, landing, the buildings across from the courthouse, etc.
Not on me. Demolition would be ahead by far if we only focused on the last 2 years though.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on June 24, 2020, 01:25:22 PM
Lake by any chance do you have a number for what has been spent on demolition vs revitalization downtown over the last 5-10 years? I imagine the demo number is substantially more... Old Courthouse, ramps, landing, the buildings across from the courthouse, etc.
Don't forget to include all the private demos permitted by the City such as the Greyhound Station, Doro, now FBC, etc. If you go back up to 10 years, there are lot's more that have faded from our memories but are evidenced by all the vacant lots/surface lots Downtown. I think the Duval County Courthouse blocks might fall close to being within 10 years too. You could do this exercise going back decades and possibly get similar ratios. Not much of significance from "old Downtown" left today.
BIG update to this whole situation:
What we know already:
FBC won approval on the demolition of the Independent Life building
They have also secured the loan to the project
What has happened recently:
They have hit a roadblock which really starts the whole project for them, selling their existing buildings/blocks so they can consolidate into one city block.
They had 6-8 large buyers interested in the property, but due to COVID, interest has fizzled out completely. Smaller buyers were interested in smaller plots and they have received offers from them. But those offer were about 25% of the value of what they were initially told.
What has resulted is the Hobson block plan is OVER.
What the new plan is now:
The new plan is they are going to move to the Lindsey Memorial Auditorium (LMA) which they have been currently holding their services at the moment during the pandemic. The logic is that they have realized the value has diminished as buyers have walked away. Now they are living within their means in the LMA.
The LMA space still needs work structurally and mechanically and they'll approach it as it comes (Work was done aesthetically to the insider of the building a few years back). Some prominent/faithful members are stepping up (in the $millions) to help make this transition.
As far as what the Hobson block plan and all the other blocks will look like in the future, still TBD but it's probably safe to say that the Independence Life Building has been saved for now.
Woah.
QuoteThe new plan is they are going to move to the Lindsey Memorial Auditorium (LMA) which they have been currently holding their services at the moment during the pandemic. The logic is that they have realized the value has diminished as buyers have walked away. Now they are living within their means in the LMA.
Does the LMA have space for everything they want? I know the preschool building is on the same block, but parking for that was over on the Hobson block.
QuoteSome prominent/faithful members are stepping up (in the $millions) to help make this transition.
They had the millions to transition to the LMA but not the Hobson block?
QuoteAs far as what the Hobson block plan and all the other blocks will look like in the future, still TBD but it's probably safe to say that the Independence Life Building has been saved for now.
At this point I feel like it's being rubbed in Jax's face that we really did not take any advantage of the economic boom before this crash. I wonder if there's any chance of a smaller buyer snapping up the Independent Life Building now, or once we start having an actual economy instead of this suicidal stock market bubble.
QuoteDoes the LMA have space for everything they want? I know the preschool building is on the same block, but parking for that was over on the Hobson block.
I always thought this was the most useful space to downgrade to but I don't think it checks all the boxes as far as parking and such. Details of the plans weren't really discussed as far as this new plan.
QuoteThey had the millions to transition to the LMA but not the Hobson block?
I think those that are contributing may have already stepped up prior to this as part of the transition. If it was securing the loan to consolidate to the Hobson block, their contributions would help pay that down (plus the sale of the buildings) but since that plan is scrapped as well as the loan, those contributing are still putting money forth to move to the LMA.
QuoteAt this point I feel like it's being rubbed in Jax's face that we really did not take any advantage of the economic boom before this crash. I wonder if there's any chance of a smaller buyer snapping up the Independent Life Building now, or once we start having an actual economy instead of this suicidal stock market bubble.
It was mentioned that the smaller buyers were coming in A LOT lower than their asking price. So they knew the juice wasn't worth the squeeze which probably triggered this new plan.
They should just move to Cecil Field.
RE: Parking - it doesn't matter which building or block they use - Hobson or Lindsay Memorial - neither has parking within the block. It would make sense for them to reserve spaces on Sundays as part of the sale of one or more of their garages.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on August 03, 2020, 11:24:37 AM
QuoteDoes the LMA have space for everything they want? I know the preschool building is on the same block, but parking for that was over on the Hobson block.
I always thought this was the most useful space to downgrade to but I don't think it checks all the boxes as far as parking and such. Details of the plans weren't really discussed as far as this new plan.
QuoteThey had the millions to transition to the LMA but not the Hobson block?
I think those that are contributing may have already stepped up prior to this as part of the transition. If it was securing the loan to consolidate to the Hobson block, their contributions would help pay that down (plus the sale of the buildings) but since that plan is scrapped as well as the loan, those contributing are still putting money forth to move to the LMA.
QuoteAt this point I feel like it's being rubbed in Jax's face that we really did not take any advantage of the economic boom before this crash. I wonder if there's any chance of a smaller buyer snapping up the Independent Life Building now, or once we start having an actual economy instead of this suicidal stock market bubble.
It was mentioned that the smaller buyers were coming in A LOT lower than their asking price. So they knew the juice wasn't worth the squeeze which probably triggered this new plan.
LMA makes sense. It may need some work but it won't be $30 million worth of work or whatever the ungodly number was for the Hobson block. Seems the Hobson block would be easier to sell for redevelopment as well. It has smaller properties, meaning you don't need a master developer and there's only so much you can do with an auditorium the size of LMA.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 03, 2020, 12:29:45 PM
RE: Parking - it doesn't matter which building or block they use - Hobson or Lindsay Memorial - neither has parking within the block. It would make sense for them to reserve spaces on Sundays as part of the sale of one or more of their garages.
The Hobson block has a parking garage which is why they wanted to consolidate into that block.
Reserving the garages for Sundays make sense but they are now at the will of the new owners. The owner might tear those down, splice the parcel up and sell for more than what they bought it for or develop something on their own.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 03, 2020, 12:29:45 PM
RE: Parking - it doesn't matter which building or block they use - Hobson or Lindsay Memorial - neither has parking within the block. It would make sense for them to reserve spaces on Sundays as part of the sale of one or more of their garages.
What? There's a parking garage on the Hobson block, it's right next to the Independent Life Building. It's also connected to the Preschool Building on the Lindsay block. If anything, it's the most convenient garage either way, because any of the others require crossing to the opposite corner of intersections.
QuoteLMA makes sense. It may need some work but it won't be $30 million worth of work or whatever the ungodly number was for the Hobson block. Seems the Hobson block would be easier to sell for redevelopment as well. It has smaller properties, meaning you don't need a master developer and there's only so much you can do with an auditorium the size of LMA.
Agreed, they can retrofit the preschool building into something that is more inviting and open as their welcome center and heck, the building is nowhere near historic so have at it!
Remove all the above street crosswalks and make the buildings more inviting and open. Right now, the buildings at the street level don't have any visibility to the inside which in my opinion doesn't give a great feeling or provide a positive energy.
Sorry, I guess I didn't look closely enough on G-maps. [hangs head in shame]
Jax Business Journal: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/08/03/first-baptist-church-covid-jacksonville-downtown.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews_breakingnews&j=90522077&t=Breaking%20News&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTVRCbFltSXpNekUzWTJOaCIsInQiOiJ3YXJTQTBseU9maVZSWERUTzdvd1ZwMnoyNmxSTlRcL0xIUUdDUW90TWtidDFFUE9SK3ZrbDQ4V01qbzZyVjdzWU5VUUxpQ0oxYVpkYzNweFwvQW9XNzhpZ1Z3UHhncU1MdTRSZTBjb0tvdFN1MlRsNTJOdUs3QWJCdnorR3NRdlowIn0%3D
[geez what a cumbersome URL]
They currently own all of the garages. They can keep one and lease out spaces or sell one on the condition that it include spaces in it for them. In other words, they have options.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on August 03, 2020, 01:20:25 PM
Agreed, they can retrofit the preschool building into something that is more inviting and open as their welcome center and heck, the building is nowhere near historic so have at it!
Remove all the above street crosswalks and make the buildings more inviting and open. Right now, the buildings at the street level don't have any visibility to the inside which in my opinion doesn't give a great feeling or provide a positive energy.
Something as simple as replacing the glass block windows, with transparent windows along Laura Street, would be transformational for that property.
For parking, it may make sense to create that welcome center they wanted so badly on the corner of Hogan and Beaver. They have a half acre there that could host a very nice welcome center with coffee, etc., that could have a bridge (that's what they will want with their elderly population and traffic on Baver) over from the garage and another bridge into the LMA. It's a bigger property than what they were looking to demolish. They can also work to save up again or specifically ask for a gift. There would also not be a demolition cost.
They can also still try to sell the Preschool Building right on Laura which is easier to unload to a business or developer due to its office configuration rather than a large auditorium.
Quote from: FlaBoy on August 03, 2020, 02:24:56 PM
For parking, it may make sense to create that welcome center they wanted so badly on the corner of Hogan and Beaver. They have a half acre there that could host a very nice welcome center with coffee, etc., that could have a bridge (that's what they will want with their elderly population and traffic on Baver) over from the garage and another bridge into the LMA. It's a bigger property than what they were looking to demolish. They can also work to save up again or specifically ask for a gift. There would also not be a demolition cost.
They can also still try to sell the Preschool Building right on Laura which is easier to unload to a business or developer due to its office configuration rather than a large auditorium.
Doesn't the Skyway run between those blocks? Could you really build a pedestrian bridge across that without going 4 stories up? I'm not sure there's a good place at the LMA for such a bridge to connect on that side either. The Preschool Building is connected directly into the LMA too.
It would be really hard with the height (or lack thereof) of the buildings. That's one of the few places where they don't have a skywalk between the buildings.
Two things they want to get rid of/reduce
1. Number of buildings/facilities/square footage. Whether it's auditoriums or garages, the number of buildings means constant maintenance and right now with the current health of the church, this is something they don't want to continue burning money on. The member-to-square footage ratio is astronomically out of proportion. Modern day churches that bring in thousands each week operate on a way smaller footprint. They are trying to right size their facilities.
2. They want to consolidate into one block, now it's kinda two with this plan perhaps. If you walk DT around their buildings, you'll understand how big their campus is. And also, how uninviting and confusing it can be for someone that is new to the church or visiting for the first time. Where to park? What building do I go to? How many blocks away is the children's building to drop off my kids? All of this shouldn't be a barrier to worship which is why they want to consolidate and make a nice, new doormat aka Welcome Center so that it is inviting.
Except for a couple of buildings/blocks, the whole thing is largely a white elephant from a RE market standpoint.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on August 03, 2020, 05:18:38 PM
Two things they want to get rid of/reduce
1. Number of buildings/facilities/square footage. Whether it's auditoriums or garages, the number of buildings means constant maintenance and right now with the current health of the church, this is something they don't want to continue burning money on. The member-to-square footage ratio is astronomically out of proportion. Modern day churches that bring in thousands each week operate on a way smaller footprint. They are trying to right size their facilities.
This is possible. However, it may mean ridding themselves of properties at a lower cost than they originally imagined. As a white elephant, what the view as valuable may not be viewed the same as the real market. However, if you're not paying property taxes and can't afford buildings that you've already squeezed decades of use out of, you still stand to make a pretty good profit. You also stop the financial bleeding.
Quote2. They want to consolidate into one block, now it's kinda two with this plan perhaps. If you walk DT around their buildings, you'll understand how big their campus is. And also, how uninviting and confusing it can be for someone that is new to the church or visiting for the first time. Where to park? What building do I go to? How many blocks away is the children's building to drop off my kids? All of this shouldn't be a barrier to worship which is why they want to consolidate and make a nice, new doormat aka Welcome Center so that it is inviting.
This is still possible with the Ruth Lindsay block. It just means working out a deal with the use of one of the garages on Laura Street. The easiest would probably be the one at Laura and Beaver. Assuming the school is sold to used. as a school, that's a garage that could be shared by both since the parking demand times would be totally different.
FBC should look at building a nice new shiny building at Lot J 8). With the Doro project and Shad building for "thousands" of new residents (sarcasm here), FBC can have the only church within walking distance of the stadium and we know the Jags need all the prayers they can get!
Shad could swap one of his valuable acres (thanks to $233 million plus from the City) for the entire current FBC campus. When he is finished raking in all the dollars he can squeeze out of the stadium complex, he can then hit up the City for another few hundred million to redevelop FBC's campus.
Hoping Curry doesn't read this post as he just might take it seriously ;).
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on August 03, 2020, 09:58:22 PM
FBC should look at building a nice new shiny building at Lot J 8). With the Doro project and Shad building for "thousands" of new residents (sarcasm here), FBC can have the only church within walking distance of the stadium and we know the Jags need all the prayers they can get!
Shad could swap one of his valuable acres (thanks to $233 million plus from the City) for the entire current FBC campus. When he is finished raking in all the dollars he can squeeze out of the stadium complex, he can then hit up the City for another few hundred million to redevelop FBC's campus.
Hoping Curry doesn't read this post as he just might take it seriously ;).
I think the Hobson building is the only reason they're not pulling out of downtown entirely.
If the most recent news is correct, they've abandoned plans to spend $30 million on the Hobson block. The lion's share of that money was supposed to go to restore the Hobson Building.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2020, 07:19:44 AM
If the most recent news is correct, they've abandoned plans to spend $30 million on the Hobson block. The lion's share of that money was supposed to go to restore the Hobson Building.
Article from the JDR: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/first-baptist-church-abandons-plan-to-sell-most-of-downtown-campus (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/first-baptist-church-abandons-plan-to-sell-most-of-downtown-campus)
Is there any recourse to get the Independent Life building historical designation now?
Also, this example should be held up to the council as to why granting demolition permits well before construction permits are issued is terrible. FBC could've easily demolished the building AND THEN said they don't have the money and halted everything, leaving another hole in the downtown fabric.
Quote from: itsfantastic1 on August 04, 2020, 09:15:13 AM
Is there any recourse to get the Independent Life building historical designation now?
At present I doubt it. You'd still be doing it without FBC's blessing so it would be hard.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 03, 2020, 05:30:18 PM
Except for a couple of buildings/blocks, the whole thing is largely a white elephant from a RE market standpoint.
No argument....but the one exception to that is parking. You can't build that parking for its present value. In some ways the biggest white elephant is now off the market: the large auditorium. Not that the Hobson sanctuary is an easy reuse, but it may be easier than a big auditorium.
So are they going to sell or raze the big auditorium; and...has attendance suffered that badly that they have to retro back to the much much smaller Hobson building/sanctuary (the original FBC I would guess)?
Sounds like they're keeping the big auditorium and consolidating down to that block, plus perhaps a little more and selling the rest when the time is right.
It makes no sense for them to pay to demolish buildings just to sell the land. None of the buildings are in imminent danger of collapse. (huh, where have I heard that before).
None of the buildings are in danger of collapsing and the land without the buildings is probably worth less than it is with the buildings and garages on them.
QuoteIn some ways the biggest white elephant is now off the market: the large auditorium.
I thought they were still trying to off-load the 10,000 seat auditorium and were consolidating back to a smaller 3000 seat auditorium?
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The parking decks are valuable in terms of the present value, to be sure. But who would ever need that much parking UNLESS they were building a major office building nearby? If you were going to build the 20+ story building that would need even one of those garages, would you want to build it there?
In many cities it would be obvious that the city would be the most likely buyer (especially for the garages), but given JAX's history as a land owner, that would be disaster.
Quote from: heights unknown on August 05, 2020, 03:06:33 PM
So are they going to sell or raze the big auditorium; and...has attendance suffered that badly that they have to retro back to the much much smaller Hobson building/sanctuary (the original FBC I would guess)?
Attendance has declined, no doubt about that due to a number of factors.
The idea was to create a more smaller, welcoming environment with multiple services which the Hobson provided. Since that has changed, the Lindsey Memorial Auditorium which is bigger than the Hobson but smaller than their main auditorium is now their current plan. I think the main auditorium will be used for one-off services and no longer the regular Sunday service venue.
I think I missed a detail: I thought the LMA was the big auditorium; I didn't realize there were three (Hobson, LMA, Large Auditorium).
Since LMA is now their plan, I do wonder ultimately what they'd like to sell - I'm sure they keep one garage; maybe the one on Laura.
I bet they'd sell the Hobson block less the garage for the right price. That still leaves the giant auditorium (which unfortunately, not sure who else needs a 10k seat auditorium. If the concert business was in better shape (thanks COVID), then it may be able to be retrofitted as it would actually be the largest indoor auditorium style venue in the city. Somebody with some cash could actually make that an amazing music area by retrofitting the ground level into retail/restaurants/small concert venues, etc.
Quote from: Steve on August 07, 2020, 11:41:05 AM
That still leaves the giant auditorium (which unfortunately, not sure who else needs a 10k seat auditorium. If the concert business was in better shape (thanks COVID), then it may be able to be retrofitted as it would actually be the largest indoor auditorium style venue in the city. Somebody with some cash could actually make that an amazing music area by retrofitting the ground level into retail/restaurants/small concert venues, etc.
Too little, too late, but I bet the RNC would have liked to have looked at before they abandoned Jacksonville 8). As I recall, the large auditorium is also set up for television cameras (since they broadcast their services) and a significant TV production studio is in the building, thus ready made for TV events. Maybe next time!
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on August 07, 2020, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Steve on August 07, 2020, 11:41:05 AM
That still leaves the giant auditorium (which unfortunately, not sure who else needs a 10k seat auditorium. If the concert business was in better shape (thanks COVID), then it may be able to be retrofitted as it would actually be the largest indoor auditorium style venue in the city. Somebody with some cash could actually make that an amazing music area by retrofitting the ground level into retail/restaurants/small concert venues, etc.
Too little, too late, but I bet the RNC would have liked to have looked at before they abandoned Jacksonville 8). As I recall, the large auditorium is also set up for television cameras (since they broadcast their services) and a significant TV production studio in the building, thus ready made for TV events. Maybe next time!
Haha - it would be fitting in some ways wouldn't it?
It's a conundrum....FBC said themselves that the people interested aren't returning calls. I personally understood the decision to sell it as a group but had zero confidence in it working in this city....even before COVID. so the private sector is out.
If it was smaller I could potentially see FSCJ wanting it. Maybe they can scale it back and redevelop the rest. In any event I'd love the FSCJ campus to come south of State and Union. Plus, the Rosa Parks redevelopment could be the link there.
QuoteFirst Baptist Church applies for $1 million renovation Downtown
First Baptist Church of Jacksonville applied to the city for a permit to renovate the Lindsay Memorial Auditorium at its Downtown campus at an estimated cost of $1 million.
Williams & Rowe Co. Inc. is listed as the contractor. Novus Architects of Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, is the architect
Plans say the scope of work includes renovation of the existing sanctuary and the back-of-house choir rehearsal area.
Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/first-baptist-church-applies-for-dollar1-million-renovation-downtown
"As I recall, the large auditorium is also set up for television cameras (since they broadcast their services) and a significant TV production studio is in the building, thus ready made for TV events. Maybe next time!"
Pitch it to Tony Khan for the wrestling business.
The congregation voted on Sunday to sell Parking Garage #4 (721 N. Pearl St.) for $5.8 million. It's the one with the lighthouse at one of the corners.
Don't have any details on the buyer or their plans though.
Good for them. They sold some properties in the vicinity of that garage recently, so perhaps it can be used to support one of those future redevelopment sites. You can't buy a full downtown block and construct a new parking garage that size on it for $5.8 million today.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2021, 09:18:19 AM
Good for them. They sold some properties in the vicinity of that garage recently, so perhaps it can be used to support one of those future redevelopment sites. You can't buy a full downtown block and construct a new parking garage that size on it for $5.8 million today.
Nope! That's a bargain! Also, could be a nice compliment to any residential development in that area since there's been some quite a few proposals in that pocket.
DIA lifted minimum parking requirements for downtown, right? So a developer can just gain access to that garage and not need to build any parking on their own property?
^Yes, you could develop a property nearby and use the garage for off street parking to support the development. That garage has +800 spaces, so it's a pretty large one.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on April 26, 2021, 11:55:39 AM
DIA lifted minimum parking requirements for downtown, right? So a developer can just gain access to that garage and not need to build any parking on their own property?
This is a great example of the kind of thing that's possible now. We'll get out of our own way one of these days.
I wonder what the maximum distance between the garage and residential (or other) uses would be acceptable to developers, city regulators, residents or customers?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2021, 12:02:01 PM
^Yes, you could develop a property nearby and use the garage for off street parking to support the development. That garage has +800 spaces, so it's a pretty large one.
Yeah, $7.25k per space is a real bargain, PLUS you get a lighthouse!
Quote from: marcuscnelson on April 26, 2021, 11:55:39 AM
DIA lifted minimum parking requirements for downtown, right? So a developer can just gain access to that garage and not need to build any parking on their own property?
Yes, it allows developers the flexibility to unbundle parking from their development through a shared use agreement with a nearby facility.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2021, 09:18:19 AM
Good for them. They sold some properties in the vicinity of that garage recently, so perhaps it can be used to support one of those future redevelopment sites. You can't buy a full downtown block and construct a new parking garage that size on it for $5.8 million today.
That garage doesn't have retail (and the required fire suppression costs associated with a mixed use structure), so with today's pre-fab concrete construction costs... that would probably cost around +$20mm to construct, not including land acquisition or pre-development costs.
For comparison, the Florida Blue garage in Brooklyn cost North of $25k per parking stall, and concrete prices have risen gainfully since then. COJ gave Florida Blue the land and paid for the retention costs to get the site to be shovel-ready, along with a $3.5mm completion grant once the structure was complete.
Not sure if information is available about the buyer but I know the couple that wanted to build the apartments at Ashley and Hogan streets mentioned in the article they wanted to build a phase 2 but were working on figuring out parking. Maybe this is related?
Quote from: Zac T on April 27, 2021, 08:42:58 PM
Not sure if information is available about the buyer but I know the couple that wanted to build the apartments at Ashley and Hogan streets mentioned in the article they wanted to build a phase 2 but were working on figuring out parking. Maybe this is related?
I was thinking the same.
Heard a rumor the main auditorium was sold but can't confirm or have seen anything official yet. I think this was the last property remaining that they were trying to sell.
Did they sell the school on Laura Street?
Quote from: Jagsdrew on March 25, 2022, 04:51:08 PM
Heard a rumor the main auditorium was sold but can't confirm or have seen anything official yet. I think this was the last property remaining that they were trying to sell.
It looks like that is where the Van Gogh event is in September so this makes sense. See my comment at that thread asking if they were gutting the building to support that event.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2022, 11:53:19 PM
Did they sell the school on Laura Street?
To my knowledge no, but I've also heard they may keep it. Who knows!
Quote from: Jagsdrew on March 25, 2022, 04:51:08 PM
Heard a rumor the main auditorium was sold but can't confirm or have seen anything official yet. I think this was the last property remaining that they were trying to sell.
Don't know about a sale, but Corner Lot was involved with bringing the Van Gogh exhibit to this spot.