QuoteJACKSONVILLE, Fla. – The city of Jacksonville's inventory for Confederate memorials lists three monuments and eight markers on city property related to the Civil War.
As of Tuesday, there is one less.
Crews were seen overnight using a crane to remove a Confederate monument in Jacksonville's Hemming Park, the downtown city plaza framed on two sides by City Hall and the Federal Courthouse. The statue and nameplate were hauled off well before daylight, leaving an empty pedestal.
The change was unannounced and comes ahead of a peaceful protest led by Jaguars running back Leonard Fournette and rapper Lil Duval that's set to start at 10 a.m. outside City Hall. The mayor is expected to join the march.
Full article: https://www.news4jax.com/news/2020/06/09/confederate-statue-removed-from-jacksonville-park-by-city-crews-overnight/
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on June 09, 2020, 08:24:15 AM
A Trump topper is about to be added in its place in a bold stroke to get the convention.
Man, that would be so funny if it wouldn't immediately start a riot and put Jax on the map in a bad light...yet again
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on June 09, 2020, 08:24:15 AM
A Trump topper is about to be added in its place in a bold stroke to get the convention.
That would be taken down by Saturday evening. I do wonder if the timing of the HRO and the statue removal is in preparation for our RNC bid. We may not have sufficient meeting space or hotel rooms, but we won't cause racist or homophobic controversy!
I am for the removal, but the timing and the manner in which it was done are very peculiar. However, I'm a fan of statues, monuments, and public art, so I hope that we replace the statue with something. It could be James Weldon Johnson, Tillie Fowler, Fred Durst, a cow... I don't care. I just want to see it replaced with something that doesn't symbolize oppression and hatred.
I vote Fred Durst
Take 'em to the Mathews Bridge!
Stephen Dare, obvs.
Clearly a camel rider sandwich is the most appropriate topper. The plaques at the base can be replaced with images of steak in a sacks. Perfection.
The Burger King comes to mind.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on June 09, 2020, 09:46:51 AM
If we wait until December, a replica of my MJ fantasy football three peat trophy would be nice.
Not so fast!
And all you naysayers griping abut the Landing, Fire Station #5, City Hall, Hart Bridge ramps, etc. Don't you know practice makes perfect!
Quote from: Adam White on June 09, 2020, 09:35:53 AM
Stephen Dare, obvs.
If you were to decorate his monument with some of his most vile, mean-spirited ad hominem posts wouldn't that just amount to some surreal hate message prisoner exchange?
My snarky choice would be Anna Lopez Brosche wearing a hard hat wielding a sledgehammer.
What did Shad Khan ever do with that Michael Jackson statue at Fulham? Seems perfect.
Lol, this thread makes my day, especially coming from reading our Facebook comments.
I vote for a Union soldier memorial...
The facebook comments are insane. I wonder how many of those people who are outraged are a) aware that there was a confederate soldier statue in hemming park before today b) have seen it in person c) know anything about Jacksonville prior to the year of their birth. Jacksonville has a checkered past, but at one point it was a very progressive and inclusive city. Lets memorialize the positive role models from throughout our city's history and not the reminders of the darker times.
To add to their 'lost cause' angst, there is a Change[dot]org petition on Facebook to change the name of Robert E. Lee High School.
https://www.change.org/p/duval-county-school-district-change-the-name-of-robert-e-lee-high-school-in-jacksonville-fl
Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 09, 2020, 01:14:52 PM
Lets memorialize the positive role models from throughout our city's history and not the reminders of the darker times.
I think in some ways that's easier said than done. Slave Labor built the White House (I bet we as a country couldn't pay for it without slave labor, one way or another). Our first President and the namesake of the country's capital was a slaveowner (he emancipated all of his slaves upon his death). Likewise was nearly every early president except for the Adams' father and son. U.S. Grant (Union General) owned a single slave as well - he gave him up just before the civil war.
My point is - while I certainly don't ever condone being uncivil, I think there is going to be some passion around this issue for a long time.
Unless Wayne and Delores have some skeletons hidden deep in their closet, I don't see anyone objecting to a statue of them. James Weldon Johnson.
Quote from: Steve on June 09, 2020, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 09, 2020, 01:14:52 PM
Lets memorialize the positive role models from throughout our city's history and not the reminders of the darker times.
I think in some ways that's easier said than done. Slave Labor built the White House (I bet we as a country couldn't pay for it without slave labor, one way or another). Our first President and the namesake of the country's capital was a slaveowner (he emancipated all of his slaves upon his death). Likewise was nearly every early president except for the Adams' father and son. U.S. Grant (Union General) owned a single slave as well - he gave him up just before the civil war.
My point is - while I certainly don't ever condone being uncivil, I think there is going to be some passion around this issue for a long time.
Grant married into a slave holder family. His family was abolitionist...
Anna Brosche was prescient when she raised this issue. Unfortunately, many skewered her for even bringing it up. Let's note that Curry calculatingly whiffed on it (just as he did on the HRO) and likely used it as one more issue to beat Brosche up behind closed doors given how nasty his campaign against her was. And now Curry will want credit for today. Not so fast. While better late than never, for Curry, it's more like catch-up political pandering. No leadership there.
For a refresh:
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501871-confederate-statue-comes-down-in-jacksonville-florida-with-more-to (https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501871-confederate-statue-comes-down-in-jacksonville-florida-with-more-to)
Quote...Curry previously said he would not weigh in on the removal of the statue in 2017 after City Council President Anna Lopez Brosche called for its removal following the white supremacist "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Va., where one counterprotester died and 19 others were injured.
Brosche later proposed installing a monument to lynching victims next to the monument, which was defeated by the council in 2018...
A few more recaps:
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/243511-confederate-jax-council-public-comment (https://floridapolitics.com/archives/243511-confederate-jax-council-public-comment)
https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/post/jacksonville-city-council-president-calls-confederate-monument-inventory-removal (https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/post/jacksonville-city-council-president-calls-confederate-monument-inventory-removal)
https://www.wokv.com/news/local/hate-emails-sent-jacksonville-city-council-president-over-proposal-remove-confederate-statues/RgjSvymmrHrTBVciXg8enO/ (https://www.wokv.com/news/local/hate-emails-sent-jacksonville-city-council-president-over-proposal-remove-confederate-statues/RgjSvymmrHrTBVciXg8enO/)
I suspect Lee High will be renamed shortly. I just read the article below advocating the renaming of military bases such as Forts Bragg, Benning, Hood, etc...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/
Can we just ban the use of the word triggered or snowflake? Especially since the biggest proponents of those words are often the best examples of the same? The president, for instance.
Quote from: MandarinNole on June 10, 2020, 09:30:36 AM
Can we just ban the use of the word triggered or snowflake? Especially since the biggest proponents of those words are often the best examples of the same? The president, for instance.
Nah, don't be silly.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on June 10, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: MandarinNole on June 10, 2020, 09:30:36 AM
Can we just ban the use of the word triggered or snowflake? Especially since the biggest proponents of those words are often the best examples of the same? The president, for instance.
Not sure what prompted this , but I would say anyone asking for those particular words to be banned is a snowflake that is easily triggered :)
;D you crack me up, Matt
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200610/list-here-are-11-jacksonville-civil-war-monuments-markers-coming-down
I need to really understand the Markers being removed. The statue in Hemming was commemorating those that fought for the confederacy. That is an apples and oranges comparison to a marker that just states that something occurred or something existed.
The markers are overkill, especially in a cemetery or historic park. For example, the Maple Leaf is a National Historic Landmark site that includes confederate, union and black history. It simply marks an event. Now, there are two markers on both sides of the river, one in Orange Park and the other in Mandarin. So at least one will still stay. Anyway, a cemetery or local history museum is where the two monuments should go. The third is the grandstand in Old City Cemetery. I doubt that can be moved. If they bother with it, it will probably be demolished.
Agreed, do not understand removing the Maple Leaf and the battle markers. Makes no sense.
And, last night on National Geographic channel, their "Drain the Oceans" program featured the Maple Leaf.
As noted, the sinking of the Maple Leaf was an event. It is a central exhibit in the Mandarin Museum and at MOSH. The bulk of its retrieved artifacts, as I recall, are in the State's Museum of Florida History in Tallahassee and in the National Museum of the U.S. Army in Virginia. It has been said the Maple Leaf wreck contains the greatest collection of Union Army artifacts in the world. It is estimated that less than 1 or 2% have been recovered.
QuoteBecause of the amount and variety of items that were on-board, this shipwreck site is considered a cultural treasure chest. According to Edwin C. Bearss, former Chief Historian of the United States Department of Interior, National Park Service:
"The wreck of the Maple Leaf is unsurpassed as a source for Civil War material culture. The site combines one of the largest ships sunk during the war, carrying all the worldly goods of more than a thousand soldiers, with a river bottom environment that perfectly preserved the ship and cargo. It is the most important repository of Civil War artifacts ever found and probably will remain so."
https://www.mandarinmuseum.net/mandarin-history/maple-leaf (https://www.mandarinmuseum.net/mandarin-history/maple-leaf)
Most importantly, the Maple Leaf is a U.S. National Historic Landmark and one of only 7 shipwrecks so designated. Here is the illustrious company it keeps:
1. Antonio Lopez
2. USS Arizona
3. Land Tortoise
4. USS Monitor
5. Truk Lagoon Fleet
6. USS Utah
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._National_Historic_Landmark_ships,_shipwrecks,_and_shipyards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._National_Historic_Landmark_ships,_shipwrecks,_and_shipyards)Interestingly, the ship hosted both African American crewmen who perished with its sinking and Confederate prisoners:
QuoteThe Maple Leaf sank quickly in twenty feet of water. Fifty eight passengers and the crew climbed into three lifeboats with only the clothes on their backs and rowed off to Jacksonville, fifteen miles away. Four African-American crewmen were killed in the forecastle by the explosion, and four Confederate prisoners were left behind, perched on the hurricane deck which was above water, because there was not room for them in their life boats.
https://www.mandarinmuseum.net/mandarin-history/maple-leaf (https://www.mandarinmuseum.net/mandarin-history/maple-leaf)
For more info and links see:
https://www.nps.gov/articles/mapleleaf.htm (https://www.nps.gov/articles/mapleleaf.htm)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Leaf_(shipwreck) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Leaf_(shipwreck))
http://www.mapleleafshipwreck.com/Book/other/contents.htm (http://www.mapleleafshipwreck.com/Book/other/contents.htm)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 10, 2020, 07:45:26 AM
I suspect Lee High will be renamed shortly. I just read the article below advocating the renaming of military bases such as Forts Bragg, Benning, Hood, etc...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/
Lee would want it changed I believe. He supported moving on, he wouldn't even let them fly the Confederate flag at Washington university when he was president there.
https://www.businessinsider.com/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments-2017-8 (https://www.businessinsider.com/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments-2017-8)
Quote from: JeffreyS on June 10, 2020, 08:01:58 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 10, 2020, 07:45:26 AM
I suspect Lee High will be renamed shortly. I just read the article below advocating the renaming of military bases such as Forts Bragg, Benning, Hood, etc...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/
Lee would want it changed I believe. He supported moving on, he wouldn't even let them fly the Confederate flag at Washington university when he was president there.
https://www.businessinsider.com/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments-2017-8 (https://www.businessinsider.com/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments-2017-8)
Thanks for posting this. I knew Lee was generally in favor of healing the wound of the war and attempting to bring unity after the Confederate defeat, which is admirable, but this is something I'd never heard of before. Lee seems like a decent guy post-war, or at the very least spoke like one
Quote from: Peter Griffin on June 11, 2020, 07:57:41 AM
Quote from: JeffreyS on June 10, 2020, 08:01:58 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 10, 2020, 07:45:26 AM
I suspect Lee High will be renamed shortly. I just read the article below advocating the renaming of military bases such as Forts Bragg, Benning, Hood, etc...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/
Lee would want it changed I believe. He supported moving on, he wouldn't even let them fly the Confederate flag at Washington university when he was president there.
https://www.businessinsider.com/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments-2017-8 (https://www.businessinsider.com/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments-2017-8)
Thanks for posting this. I knew Lee was generally in favor of healing the wound of the war and attempting to bring unity after the Confederate defeat, which is admirable, but this is something I'd never heard of before. Lee seems like a decent guy post-war, or at the very least spoke like one
I fine with changing Lee HS... but it certainly has not stopped at confederate names. Statues of Columbus have been defaced and torn down. What about names like Washington and Jefferson? Cities, monuments, landmarks, and schools are named after them. How far is everyone willing to go?
I hear you BT where does it end. I get that some American heroes are flawed and how we remember them is complicated. The confederates roll in the war was specifically Anti-USA so they are in a different category.
speaking of flawed heros, I don't think I've ever heard of a George S. Patton High School...
Quote from: downtownbrown on June 11, 2020, 09:27:21 AM
speaking of flawed heros, I don't think I've ever heard of a George S. Patton High School...
California... go figure...
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/california/districts/los-angeles-unified-school-district/george-s-patton-continuation-2576
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 09:34:21 AM
Quote from: downtownbrown on June 11, 2020, 09:27:21 AM
speaking of flawed heros, I don't think I've ever heard of a George S. Patton High School...
California... go figure...
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/california/districts/los-angeles-unified-school-district/george-s-patton-continuation-2576
Well, he was Californian and was from the area.
Quote from: JeffreyS on June 11, 2020, 09:08:33 AM
I hear you BT where does it end. I get that some American heroes are flawed and how we remember them is complicated. The confederates roll in the war was specifically Anti-USA so they are in a different category.
I think I can agree to that. To me markers are a very different category-the event that they're marking happened whether we like it or not. The markers also generally don't glorify an event, just note that it happened.
In terms of things named for people: There are VERY few people from history that would be considered "good people" by today's standard. Someone above mentioned the Weavers-who honestly knows. They're almost 80, so they've had a lot of experiences. Maybe Wayne Weaver fired anyone who wanted to join a union (against the law). Maybe 60 years ago he donated to political candidates who favored segregation. Trying to judge a person from another generation based on what is considered acceptable today is not likely to end well.
(to be clear-the hypothetical examples I said about Weaver is entirely made up. I've never met Wayne Weaver and I don't know him outside of the context of owning the Jaguars and their family's charitable contributions).
Confederate monuments and memorials are one thing - they were specifically placed to advance a particular view of the war that saw the "cause" as good and/or to take a swipe at African Americans. That's why I don't really get the crusade to go after every thing named for some ostensible bad guy from history. The bridges weren't named as some swipe, they're mostly named for the people who got the money to build them or significant people in Jax history. And the historical markers make even less sense - what the hell are they accomplishing by removing markers about forts, the Union line of demarcation, and the wreck of a Union ship piloted by an escaped slave that's now a national heritage site? This makes absolutely no sense to me.
Quote from: Steve on June 11, 2020, 10:58:10 AM
Trying to judge a person from another generation based on what is considered acceptable today is not likely to end well.
Playing DA a bit, but isn't that
exactly what we're doing now with the removal of certain statues and renaming of schools?
BT's question earlier is a very valid one:
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 08:39:32 AM
What about names like Washington and Jefferson? Cities, monuments, landmarks, and schools are named after them. How far is everyone willing to go?
The Union won the war but lost the insurrection.
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Under that, the name of our nation's capital should change too as Washington owned slaves until the day he died as should the monument bearing his name.
I'm not trying to be argumentative - I think it's a legit conundrum. I do thing the difference with the Hemming confederate soldier is that the plaque below it specifically commemorated the confederate troops from Florida that fought against our country.
Quote from: Steve on June 11, 2020, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Under that, the name of our nation's capital should change too as Washington owned slaves until the day he died as should the monument bearing his name.
I'm not trying to be argumentative - I think it's a legit conundrum. I do thing the difference with the Hemming confederate soldier is that the plaque below it specifically commemorated the confederate troops from Florida that fought against our country.
The "where does it end" question is absolutely legit in a world where a campaign to remove Confederate monuments leads to historical markers and park signage coming down too. At this rate we're going to have no public memorial of anything bad or controversial that has ever happened, and nothing named for anyone besides maybe Abe Lincoln, Frederick Douglass, and a selection of people active only since about the 50s or 60s.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Perhaps even school mascots named after and depicting oppressed natives...
I agree with Steve. Where is this to stop? Jefferson? Washington? Jackson? Indian "fighters"? VietNam war vets?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Perhaps even school mascots named after and depicting oppressed natives...
LOL! But that's a good point. The Indian names need to go if the rest of it does.
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 11, 2020, 02:18:10 PM
I agree with Steve. Where is this to stop? Jefferson? Washington? Jackson? Indian "fighters"? VietNam war vets?
It's difficult when it comes to US history, as so many owned slaves; however, I think removing monuments to people who were actively involved in the slave trade makes sense (not sure if there are any in the USA, but we had that over here recently). And removing statues and monuments to unjust wars is a good idea - nothing wrong with memorialising Vietnam war dead, but we shouldn't be celebrating that war.
"Indian" mascots should change. And Jackson was a pretty bad guy - I'd be comfortable with removing references to him.
Might give Jacksonville the chance to re-brand. My friend Jeremy always said Hart City would be his choice - but I think that was because he wanted to rename the Jaguars as the "Hart City Breakers" which is an excellent name, IMO.
I think those who actively took up arms, or led the rebellious government, are an easy choice.
Had the British won in the 1770s/80s, or 1812-15, there would not be any statues to Revere, Washington, Jefferson, and so on.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 11, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Perhaps even school mascots named after and depicting oppressed natives...
LOL! But that's a good point. The Indian names need to go if the rest of it does.
FSU Fighting Manatees?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 04:41:05 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 11, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Perhaps even school mascots named after and depicting oppressed natives...
LOL! But that's a good point. The Indian names need to go if the rest of it does.
FSU Fighting Manatees?
All joking aside, it would be great if a Florida college or university called themselves the Manatees.
Quote from: Adam White on June 11, 2020, 04:53:01 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 04:41:05 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 11, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Perhaps even school mascots named after and depicting oppressed natives...
LOL! But that's a good point. The Indian names need to go if the rest of it does.
FSU Fighting Manatees?
All joking aside, it would be great if a Florida college or university called themselves the Manatees.
Everyone come out and support your fighting River Potatoes!
LOL. None of the joking would be aside.
(https://i.redd.it/m8hxfhrqg8251.jpg)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on June 11, 2020, 05:54:20 PM
Quote from: Adam White on June 11, 2020, 04:53:01 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 04:41:05 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 11, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Perhaps even school mascots named after and depicting oppressed natives...
LOL! But that's a good point. The Indian names need to go if the rest of it does.
FSU Fighting Manatees?
All joking aside, it would be great if a Florida college or university called themselves the Manatees.
Everyone come out and support your fighting River Potatoes!
LOL. None of the joking would be aside.
It's certainly nowhere near as cool as Jumbo Shrimp. Actually, shrimp and potatoes - a bit of a culinary theme. Let's rename the Jaguars STAT.
The Duval Manatees has a ring to it.
Quote from: Adam White on June 11, 2020, 04:00:41 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 11, 2020, 02:18:10 PM
I agree with Steve. Where is this to stop? Jefferson? Washington? Jackson? Indian "fighters"? VietNam war vets?
It's difficult when it comes to US history, as so many owned slaves; however, I think removing monuments to people who were actively involved in the slave trade makes sense (not sure if there are any in the USA, but we had that over here recently). And removing statues and monuments to unjust wars is a good idea - nothing wrong with memorialising Vietnam war dead, but we shouldn't be celebrating that war.
"Indian" mascots should change. And Jackson was a pretty bad guy - I'd be comfortable with removing references to him.
Might give Jacksonville the chance to re-brand. My friend Jeremy always said Hart City would be his choice - but I think that was because he wanted to rename the Jaguars as the "Hart City Breakers" which is an excellent name, IMO.
Taking down the monuments will do nothing more than stoke people's thirst for more revisionist removals. I agree with the statues of CSA generals, Jeff Davis, etal., but a statue of a solitary, unnamed soldier in Hemming Park? He was a victim of the Confederacy too. I bet less than a small percentage of Southern troops were slave owners. They were fighting for their "homeland", victims of the time they lived in. Eligible men not in the military were punished severely. They served right or wrong, many decades ago.
The only way to make up for past wrongs is to quit making them. Invest in minority neighborhoods, fire/jail vicious police, give minorities the same breaks given to others. Demand a citizen's review board. This is just another token gesture that means little. Do something meaningful and stop taking down memorials of soldiers who lived in a different era.
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 11, 2020, 07:36:00 PM
Quote from: Adam White on June 11, 2020, 04:00:41 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 11, 2020, 02:18:10 PM
I agree with Steve. Where is this to stop? Jefferson? Washington? Jackson? Indian "fighters"? VietNam war vets?
It's difficult when it comes to US history, as so many owned slaves; however, I think removing monuments to people who were actively involved in the slave trade makes sense (not sure if there are any in the USA, but we had that over here recently). And removing statues and monuments to unjust wars is a good idea - nothing wrong with memorialising Vietnam war dead, but we shouldn't be celebrating that war.
"Indian" mascots should change. And Jackson was a pretty bad guy - I'd be comfortable with removing references to him.
Might give Jacksonville the chance to re-brand. My friend Jeremy always said Hart City would be his choice - but I think that was because he wanted to rename the Jaguars as the "Hart City Breakers" which is an excellent name, IMO.
Taking down the monuments will do nothing more than stoke people's thirst for more revisionist removals. I agree with the statues of CSA generals, Jeff Davis, etal., but a statue of a solitary, unnamed soldier in Hemming Park? He was a victim of the Confederacy too. I bet less than a small percentage of Southern troops were slave owners. They were fighting for their "homeland", victims of the time they lived in. Eligible men not in the military were punished severely. They served right or wrong, many decades ago.
The only way to make up for past wrongs is to quit making them. Invest in minority neighborhoods, fire/jail vicious police, give minorities the same breaks given to others. Demand a citizen's review board. This is just another token gesture that means little. Do something meaningful and stop taking down memorials of soldiers who lived in a different era.
As a black person, the monuments and names didn't bother me at all. Most of which I never paid much mind too. They were whatever people made out of them. But as far as symbols of racism goes: twelve buckets of sea salt. Like it was stated previously: Washington owned slaves. Are they willing to knock over the Washington monument and strike his name from everything. Like the WWE did with Hulk Hogan?
Quote from: Adam White on June 11, 2020, 04:53:01 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 04:41:05 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 11, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Perhaps even school mascots named after and depicting oppressed natives...
LOL! But that's a good point. The Indian names need to go if the rest of it does.
FSU Fighting Manatees?
All joking aside, it would be great if a Florida college or university called themselves the Manatees.
Back in the olden days, when UNF was new (mid 1970s), the university was starting to get into athletics. Of course they needed a team name. The administration held a vote among the students. Students who, at the time, were generally older than the faculty, working full time and going to UNF part-time, and were all commuters. Rumor has it that "Manatees" (or was it "Armadillos"?) won the vote. But the Administration would have none of that and chose "Ospreys".
In real news, UNF has appointed a Vice President of Diversity and Inclusion - https://www.unf.edu/publicrelations/media_relations/articles/vice_president_of_diversity_and_inclusion.aspx
Quote
The University of North Florida announces the appointment of Whitney Meyer as the University's Vice President of Diversity and Inclusion.
In Meyer's new role, she will be responsible for advising University leadership on diversity, inclusion and racial equality pertaining to strategies and policies, learning and research, community relations and the recruitment, retention and admission of faculty, staff and students of color.
In a sincere effort to get back on topic...
America Has Problems. Tearing Down Statues Won't Solve Them
https://quillette.com/2020/06/12/america-has-problems-tearing-down-statues-wont-solve-them/
The biggest problem America has right now is a giant group of people who have taken up the old school religion, only instead of constantly seeing the devil _EVERYWHERE_ and casting out "the devil" and all that, they call it "racism". Different label, same broken psychology and damaging behaviors. Hopefully this mind virus will burn itself out before destroying and killing even more people than it already has.
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 11, 2020, 07:36:00 PM
I agree with the statues of CSA generals, Jeff Davis, etal., but a statue of a solitary, unnamed soldier in Hemming Park? He was a victim of the Confederacy too. I bet less than a small percentage of Southern troops were slave owners. They were fighting for their "homeland", victims of the time they lived in.
It's more than "less than a small percentage". In any event, they may not have been slaveholders, but certainly weren't victims.
https://acwm.org/blog/myths-and-misunderstandings-slaveholding-and-confederate-soldier/
Quote from: Adam White on June 12, 2020, 09:06:35 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 11, 2020, 07:36:00 PM
I agree with the statues of CSA generals, Jeff Davis, etal., but a statue of a solitary, unnamed soldier in Hemming Park? He was a victim of the Confederacy too. I bet less than a small percentage of Southern troops were slave owners. They were fighting for their "homeland", victims of the time they lived in.
It's more than "less than a small percentage". In any event, they may not have been slaveholders, but certainly weren't victims.
https://acwm.org/blog/myths-and-misunderstandings-slaveholding-and-confederate-soldier/
For the ones that were not slave owners, I do feel they were a victim IN A SENSE. They had been duped into fighting and in many cases dying for the benefit of the wealthy. Not only did they have nothing to gain, they would have benefited from not having to compete with slave labor, had slavery simply been outlawed. Of course, to the degree they were forced to serve, that would make them even more so a victim.
Of course, there was nothing stopping them from heading North and fighting for the union either.
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 11, 2020, 07:36:00 PM
I agree with the statues of CSA generals, Jeff Davis, etal., but a statue of a solitary, unnamed soldier in Hemming Park? He was a victim of the Confederacy too. I bet less than a small percentage of Southern troops were slave owners. They were fighting for their "homeland", victims of the time they lived in.
Isn't that statue a silent sentinel or pretty close to one? I know that the Union monument in Evergreen is:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/why-those-confederate-soldier-statues-look-a-lot-like-their-union-counterparts/2017/08/18/cefcc1bc-8394-11e7-ab27-1a21a8e006ab_story.html
Anyway, what that statue represents has less to do with the percentage of troops owning enslaved and more to do with the time in which it was installed and why. When the Hemming statue was installed in 1898, Jacksonville was majority African American and full of black local southerners who were Union veterans. There's a reason that our first local civil war monument was a Union one and our first school named after a civil war figure was Stanton.
From our local demographic perspective, why would the majority of the city decide to install a structure that represents the complete opposite of what they fought against? Because this took place during the era of the Lost Cause of the Confederacy, in which sympathizers across the south rebranded the cause of the Confederacy as a just and noble one. These samy sympathizers were also working their asses off to implement segregation and disinfranchisement of the local black population. This period had two peaks. The first roughly occurred between the late 1890s and WWI. The second took place in response to civil rights and desegregation efforts of the 1950s and 60s.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 11, 2020, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 11, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 11, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
We're having a difficult discussion on this kind of thing at UF. There have been a lot of protests calling for buildings like our student union and arena to be renamed because of the history of their namesakes. The Union was named after a university president who helped the Johns Committee hunt down LGBTQ students and faculty. The Arena was named after a university president who forced the withdrawal of dozens of black students seeking acceptance. Then you have residence halls named after the wives of Confederate cabinet members, or famous confederate figures. It's messy.
Torch it all, I say.
Things should not be named or placed commemoratively if their namesake was involved in any form of systematic discrimination or oppression.
"Because they've always been called that" isn't a good enough excuse to keep them intact.
What we've been doing since the founding of this country in terms of racial relations clearly hasn't worked.
Time for a change.
Perhaps even school mascots named after and depicting oppressed natives...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/y7kvOYLzas6Ag/giphy.gif)
Quote from: vicupstate on June 12, 2020, 09:51:48 AM
Of course, there was nothing stopping them from heading North and fighting for the union either.
Assuming that these folks (who were not wealthy) not only had not only means of education to truly understand the issues at hand and not what the wealthy slaveowners were telling them, but also that they had the financial means to move.
RE: Where the line is.
I don't think the line between memorials and markers is as fine as others seem to.
Neutrality would be a decent litmus test.
Does the marker describe, in a neutral way, a historical event that took place at a certain site? If so, it's probably fine. We need to be reminded of our history.
Does the memorial in any way celebrate or bolster a person or group known primarily for oppressing or discriminating others? Take it down. Its existence is an implicit endorsement of the beliefs that person held.
Hemming statue is a no brainer. It celebrated the Confederacy and used language like "heroes."
Jefferson Davis Middle School? Again, an absolute no brainer. The name honors him, and it's patently insane that we, as a city, expect minorities to walk into a school every day named after the head of the Confederacy.
Buildings at colleges named after people that history looks back on pretty badly for racist or discriminatory actions? Rename them. Again, what person in those groups should be expected to feel comfortable and feel like they have social equity residing in or taking classes in a building named after someone who intentionally tried to keep people like them down.
You mention city names, like Washington DC and Jacksonville.
It's impossible to separate slavery from the history of our nation, and it'd be stupid to rename every city named after a founding father or important historical figure just because they owned slaves during a period where such a thing was sadly acceptable.
To me, again, the litmus test is whether racial discrimination is what they were primarily known for.
Generals and leaders primarily known for support the confederacy? Klan members? Take them down.
Former Presidents and leaders who helped establish the national, write the Constitution, advance the nation, etc, even though they were slave owners? It's easier to justify celebrating their accomplishments, though the history books, museums, and monuments should make a real effort to paint a full picture of these men as well.
At the end of the day, feels like common sense is the best indicator for whether something is appropriate or not.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 12, 2020, 11:01:11 AM
RE: Where the line is.
I don't think the line between memorials and markers is as fine as others seem to.
Neutrality would be a decent litmus test.
Does the marker describe, in a neutral way, a historical event that took place at a certain site? If so, it's probably fine. We need to be reminded of our history.
Does the memorial in any way celebrate or bolster a person or group known primarily for oppressing or discriminating others? Take it down. Its existence is an implicit endorsement of the beliefs that person held.
Hemming statue is a no brainer. It celebrated the Confederacy and used language like "heroes."
Jefferson Davis Middle School? Again, an absolute no brainer. The name honors him, and it's patently insane that we, as a city, expect minorities to walk into a school every day named after the head of the Confederacy.
Buildings at colleges named after people that history looks back on pretty badly for racist or discriminatory actions? Rename them. Again, what person in those groups should be expected to feel comfortable and feel like they have social equity residing in or taking classes in a building named after someone who intentionally tried to keep people like them down.
You mention city names, like Washington DC and Jacksonville.
It's impossible to separate slavery from the history of our nation, and it'd be stupid to rename every city named after a founding father or important historical figure just because they owned slaves during a period where such a thing was sadly acceptable.
To me, again, the litmus test is whether racial discrimination is what they were primarily known for.
Generals and leaders primarily known for support the confederacy? Klan members? Take them down.
Former Presidents and leaders who helped establish the national, write the Constitution, advance the nation, etc, even though they were slave owners? It's easier to justify celebrating their accomplishments, though the history books, museums, and monuments should make a real effort to paint a full picture of these men as well.
At the end of the day, feels like common sense is the best indicator for whether something is appropriate or not.
I disagree it's that simple. In some cases it's simple. I agree historic markers that declare that an event occurred should not be removed. I do agree that neutrality is a good start, but it isn't the end all-be all. For example, the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial are two things that inherently aren't neutral. It celebrates these folks. Who is going to be the overarching arbiter on whether, "history looks back on pretty badly for racist or discriminatory actions" or whether or not their good outweighs their bad?
- Many would argue that Andrew Jackson's most noteworthy action was the Trail of Tears.
- John C. Calhoun has some pretty strong black eyes in terms of slavery. But he also has some good accomplishments too.
- Robert E. Lee is one that to me is particularly difficult. He was the commanding General of the confederate forces. After the Civil War he led what is now Washington and Lee University and was known for expelling white students for physical attacks on blacks. He really didn't view blacks as equals (he was opposed to them voting), but he didn't hold them as slaves like Washington or Jefferson. He also opposed the type of memorials like what was in Hemming Park. But, he was also promoted by the Lost Cause folks after his death.
Who decides who is right or who is wrong? These people don't have Facebook or Twitter account so it's hard to know how they really felt. We can rely on historians but just like economists, you can talk to two different ones and get radically different answers. It can't be because someone is uncomfortable. There are likely many folks that are uncomfortable with the removal of the Confederate Soldier in Hemming. Does that make them right automatically because they're uncomfortable?
I think we should stop including other past figures actions as part of the Confederate conversation. Others were our flawed countrymen Confederates were enemies of the country. Celebrating even the noblest of Confederates seems odd when done by the country they were determined to break apart. I like the Facebook meme that points out Nirvana had hits longer than the Confederacy was a thing can we just let it go already.
As Lake said the real issue is the Confederate stuff has less to do with the Civil War than the later Jim Crow era they were erected in. They were intended to send a message advancing a particular viewpoint. The historical markers and other memorials to flawed individuals were not, and aren't.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200612/throwing-baby-out-with-bath-water-controversy-surrounds-currys-plan-to-take-down-historic-markers
Curry just loves tearing down stuff.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 12, 2020, 07:35:28 PM
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200612/throwing-baby-out-with-bath-water-controversy-surrounds-currys-plan-to-take-down-historic-markers
Holy long article from the T-U. I have to agree with Ennis here-if we are thinking of a confederate monument in the same vein as a historical marker about an event the confederacy was part of, then I think we're missing the point here. In no way does a marker glorify the other or take a side in the battle.
^The article summarized well the concerns over markers vs. monuments. Ennis and others did a great job distinguishing between the two and Ennis's quote about throwing the baby out with the bath water made for an eye catching headline.
What I didn't see is why some of those quoted had an issue with the markers... seemed they accepted lumping anything connected with Civil War history in the same category. I would like to hear more about why they specifically object to the markers or, if they better understood others concerns, would they agree they should stay. Hope there is more outreach to them to amicably save appropriate markers.
By example, the Maple Leaf was a Union war ship. Yes, it was sunk by a Confederate mine but the USS Arizona, a similar National Historic Landmark, is honored without controversy and it was sunk by the Japanese. The Maple Leaf also carried 4 African American crew who perished with it. It would seem appropriate to note the sinking and memorialize honorably those who perished with historic markers.
The Auschwitz concentration camp, the site of heinous crimes against humanity and built by the evil Nazi's, continues to stand as a memorial to all who perished there and as a reminder to the world that we should be ever vigilant so that such crimes are never repeated. Similarly, should not the crimes and hate in our U.S. history be presented in the open so we are educated and reminded to never repeat that history again? It appears that historical markers and sites with appropriate context play this role by bringing home the reality of our country's past for all to learn from.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 10, 2020, 07:05:13 PM
As noted, the sinking of the Maple Leaf was an event. It is a central exhibit in the Mandarin Museum and at MOSH. The bulk of its retrieved artifacts, as I recall, are in the State's Museum of Florida History in Tallahassee and in the National Museum of the U.S. Army in Virginia. It has been said the Maple Leaf wreck contains the greatest collection of Union Army artifacts in the world. It is estimated that less than 1 or 2% have been recovered.
QuoteBecause of the amount and variety of items that were on-board, this shipwreck site is considered a cultural treasure chest. According to Edwin C. Bearss, former Chief Historian of the United States Department of Interior, National Park Service:
"The wreck of the Maple Leaf is unsurpassed as a source for Civil War material culture. The site combines one of the largest ships sunk during the war, carrying all the worldly goods of more than a thousand soldiers, with a river bottom environment that perfectly preserved the ship and cargo. It is the most important repository of Civil War artifacts ever found and probably will remain so."
https://www.mandarinmuseum.net/mandarin-history/maple-leaf (https://www.mandarinmuseum.net/mandarin-history/maple-leaf)
Most importantly, the Maple Leaf is a U.S. National Historic Landmark and one of only 7 shipwrecks so designated. Here is the illustrious company it keeps:
1. Antonio Lopez
2. USS Arizona
3. Land Tortoise
4. USS Monitor
5. Truk Lagoon Fleet
6. USS Utah
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._National_Historic_Landmark_ships,_shipwrecks,_and_shipyards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._National_Historic_Landmark_ships,_shipwrecks,_and_shipyards)
Interestingly, the ship hosted both African American crewmen who perished with its sinking and Confederate prisoners:
QuoteThe Maple Leaf sank quickly in twenty feet of water. Fifty eight passengers and the crew climbed into three lifeboats with only the clothes on their backs and rowed off to Jacksonville, fifteen miles away. Four African-American crewmen were killed in the forecastle by the explosion, and four Confederate prisoners were left behind, perched on the hurricane deck which was above water, because there was not room for them in their life boats.
https://www.mandarinmuseum.net/mandarin-history/maple-leaf (https://www.mandarinmuseum.net/mandarin-history/maple-leaf)
For more info and links see:
https://www.nps.gov/articles/mapleleaf.htm (https://www.nps.gov/articles/mapleleaf.htm)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Leaf_(shipwreck) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Leaf_(shipwreck))
http://www.mapleleafshipwreck.com/Book/other/contents.htm (http://www.mapleleafshipwreck.com/Book/other/contents.htm)
Worldwide coverage of the Maple Leaf on National Geographic last week:
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200616/mandarins-historic-civil-war-shipwreck-leads-national-geographic-episode (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200616/mandarins-historic-civil-war-shipwreck-leads-national-geographic-episode)
Quote
More than 300 million viewers worldwide learned about Jacksonville's 156-year-old wreck of the Maple Leaf during the first 12 minutes of a recent National Geographic's "Drain the Ocean" episode.
In fact, they got a much better view of the Union steamship that Confederate Army mines sank on April 1, 1864, than Keith Holland ever did after his team's years of up-close work recovering artifacts from the wreck off Mandarin Point.
The Jacksonville archaeologist found the wreck in 1984 under 30 feet of St. Johns River water and mud. He and divers from St. Johns Archaeological Expeditions excavated 4,500 artifacts from what is now a National Historic Landmark for museum display.
The "Drain the Ocean" episode on June 9 removed the mud and murk to show what the wreck looks like without the river atop it, images assembled from scans over the wreck done July 30 by a maritime archaeology research firm. Combined with records and wreck photos done by Holland's teams during research years ago, it showed details never seen like twin smokestacks, the paddle wheel shaft and wooden decking....
Fyi - City Council is set to vote today on changing the name of Confederate Park to Springfield Park.
I was wondering if they'd do something like that. Springfield Park makes a lot of sense, considering it's in...Springfield
Most of those parks lining the creek were named Springfield Park decades ago. I wish they remove those ugly iron fences. Makes it look like a jail instead of being an inviting destination.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on July 28, 2020, 11:03:19 AM
Fyi - City Council is set to vote today on changing the name of Confederate Park to Springfield Park.
Sorry, not the final vote. A preamble to the deed.