Heights Unknown will hate this. The proposed JEA headquarters will likely be smaller. Ryan will also likely get rid of the property after building it.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-xrddz8M/0/2d0205ee/L/20191212_DDRB%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_178A-L.jpg)
QuoteIf Ryan sells the nine-story, Class A office tower, which is scheduled to break ground at 325 W. Duval St. in July, JEA would have a new landlord.
The possible sale comes as JEA negotiates a lease agreement amendment with Ryan that could shrink the building's design and reduce the cost of the project.
The utility hopes to reduce the cost of the headquarters from $78 million to $66.77 million, That's an $11.23 million, 15.5% savings.
The smaller headquarters would lower JEA's 15-year, $160.5 million lease.
The proposed redesign would reduce both the square footage of the building and connected parking garage by 12%, according to documents included in the April 28 board material.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/ryan-could-sell-new-jea-headquarters-after-completion
Ouch. If I remember correctly, this is after they already reduced the height vs what it was in the original proposal.
At this rate, by the time they finish it'll look like something out of Gate Parkway.
Will it have to go through the design approval process again, or can construction still start as scheduled?
They claim they still want to break ground in July. I wonder if the reduction is simply chopping off a floor?
Since this is being built bespoke for JEA, it's better that the design is made to match the actual needs while it's still on nice, cheap paper. Clearly there were going to be some adjustments once the former leadership was out.
Why even bother with this? Just work from home.
Quote from: Lunican on May 04, 2020, 03:25:22 PM
Why even bother with this? Just work from home.
So don't even build it at all? You're really gonna piss off Heights Unknown now.
Quote from: Lunican on May 04, 2020, 03:25:22 PM
Why even bother with this? Just work from home.
Might be inconvenient for the folks in Customer Service, having folks come by their house to pay or dispute their bill.
^ $67 milllion building for customer service? You could do that out of a food truck. Or just on the phone.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 04, 2020, 08:40:57 AM
Heights Unknown will hate this. The proposed JEA headquarters will likely be smaller. Ryan will also likely get rid of the property after building it.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-xrddz8M/0/2d0205ee/L/20191212_DDRB%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_178A-L.jpg)
QuoteIf Ryan sells the nine-story, Class A office tower, which is scheduled to break ground at 325 W. Duval St. in July, JEA would have a new landlord.
The possible sale comes as JEA negotiates a lease agreement amendment with Ryan that could shrink the building's design and reduce the cost of the project.
The utility hopes to reduce the cost of the headquarters from $78 million to $66.77 million, That's an $11.23 million, 15.5% savings.
The smaller headquarters would lower JEA's 15-year, $160.5 million lease.
The proposed redesign would reduce both the square footage of the building and connected parking garage by 12%, according to documents included in the April 28 board material.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/ryan-could-sell-new-jea-headquarters-after-completion
You're right Lake; I hate it, spurn it, despise it, and am incensed about it. But that's life. I'll just put on my black hat with the net covering over my face and mourn for a while, and after 7 days I'll be ok. I'll live. It just appears nothing is really going right, or as I would put it, going UP, for downtown Jacksonville. My time on this dirt ball is running out; and so is my hope for Jacksonville, and especially downtown Jacksonville. Lastly, I just hate seeing other major Florida cities, even cities smaller than Jax, with heavy, dense, downtowns and even outward in the surrounding neighborhoods and suburbs. I still root for Jax, hope for Jax, but my rooting and hoping is wearing thin and I am exhausted and poured out. As for JEA, based on the info that you and others have posted, I do understand their rationale. But as for downtown Jacksonville (it's lack of moving forward), and it's floudering leaders, THAT, I don't understand.
So......Ryan is looking at other projects to develop in downtown Jacksonville; what...one story office buildings?
Quote from: Lunican on May 04, 2020, 03:25:22 PM
Why even bother with this? Just work from home.
I agree; that is the new norm isn't it? Hell, just do away with downtowns and replace with residential homes and essential offices here and there, just as you do throughout the city and not in or at a central point or destination.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 04, 2020, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: Lunican on May 04, 2020, 03:25:22 PM
Why even bother with this? Just work from home.
So don't even build it at all? You're really gonna piss off Heights Unknown now.
If they didn't build it at all that won't piss me off; building 1 or 2 stories, or even anything under 10 stories, THAT pisses me off!
Just re-read this. They'll likely value engineer that design as well. If it turns into the standard Jacksonville beige box, they may have to go back before the DDRB.
Quote from: heights unknown on May 05, 2020, 08:23:11 AM
Quote from: Lunican on May 04, 2020, 03:25:22 PM
Why even bother with this? Just work from home.
I agree; that is the new norm isn't it? Hell, just do away with downtowns and replace with residential homes and essential offices here and there, just as you do throughout the city and not in or at a central point or destination.
People don't think through what an economic disaster a broader work-from-home society would create.
The velocity of money would plummet, and entire industries would be destroyed.
White collar workers able to do their jobs from home would benefit, and just about everyone else (besides Amazon) would suffer. Restaurants would suffer. Gas stations and car dealerships would suffer. Construction would suffer. Millions of janitorial and maintenance workers would suffer. Daycares would suffer. Suppliers, lawn crews, fire marshalls, airlines.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 04, 2020, 08:40:57 AM
Heights Unknown will hate this. The proposed JEA headquarters will likely be smaller. Ryan will also likely get rid of the property after building it.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-xrddz8M/0/2d0205ee/L/20191212_DDRB%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_178A-L.jpg)
QuoteIf Ryan sells the nine-story, Class A office tower, which is scheduled to break ground at 325 W. Duval St. in July, JEA would have a new landlord.
The possible sale comes as JEA negotiates a lease agreement amendment with Ryan that could shrink the building's design and reduce the cost of the project.
The utility hopes to reduce the cost of the headquarters from $78 million to $66.77 million, That's an $11.23 million, 15.5% savings.
The smaller headquarters would lower JEA's 15-year, $160.5 million lease.
The proposed redesign would reduce both the square footage of the building and connected parking garage by 12%, according to documents included in the April 28 board material.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/ryan-could-sell-new-jea-headquarters-after-completion
Well, this is certainly disappointing, but not unexpected. It falls in line with the trend that I cited on another thread in which various projects have somehow been chopped down in size before ground braking. I know it's a long shot, but there's still a chance that the reduction might not yield a height reduction (time will tell), maybe a narrower building with smaller footprint, with more landscaping potential. If height is reduced, it's another victory for high rise opponents and a setback for Jax's "attempt" to have a skyline. Let's face it though, even a nine story building would not contribute to skyline enhancement. /howfam
Personally I care much more about Floor 1 then I do about Floor 2 through whatever. While height and cool architecture are awesome, I'd rather street interaction. This project isn't amazing, but it's way better than the vacant dirt lot that the city parks on, and at least they included active use on Julia.
Now, they take that away and I'll retract my previous statement.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 05, 2020, 09:27:45 AM
Quote from: heights unknown on May 05, 2020, 08:23:11 AM
Quote from: Lunican on May 04, 2020, 03:25:22 PM
Why even bother with this? Just work from home.
I agree; that is the new norm isn't it? Hell, just do away with downtowns and replace with residential homes and essential offices here and there, just as you do throughout the city and not in or at a central point or destination.
People don't think through what an economic disaster a broader work-from-home society would create.
The velocity of money would plummet, and entire industries would be destroyed.
White collar workers able to do their jobs from home would benefit, and just about everyone else (besides Amazon) would suffer. Restaurants would suffer. Gas stations and car dealerships would suffer. Construction would suffer. Millions of janitorial and maintenance workers would suffer. Daycares would suffer. Suppliers, lawn crews, fire marshalls, airlines.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 05, 2020, 09:27:45 AM
Quote from: heights unknown on May 05, 2020, 08:23:11 AM
Quote from: Lunican on May 04, 2020, 03:25:22 PM
Why even bother with this? Just work from home.
I agree; that is the new norm isn't it? Hell, just do away with downtowns and replace with residential homes and essential offices here and there, just as you do throughout the city and not in or at a central point or destination.
People don't think through what an economic disaster a broader work-from-home society would create.
The velocity of money would plummet, and entire industries would be destroyed.
White collar workers able to do their jobs from home would benefit, and just about everyone else (besides Amazon) would suffer. Restaurants would suffer. Gas stations and car dealerships would suffer. Construction would suffer. Millions of janitorial and maintenance workers would suffer. Daycares would suffer. Suppliers, lawn crews, fire marshalls, airlines.
But... we would save the planet...
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 05, 2020, 09:27:45 AM
People don't think through what an economic disaster a broader work-from-home society would create.
The velocity of money would plummet, and entire industries would be destroyed.
White collar workers able to do their jobs from home would benefit, and just about everyone else (besides Amazon) would suffer. Restaurants would suffer. Gas stations and car dealerships would suffer. Construction would suffer. Millions of janitorial and maintenance workers would suffer. Daycares would suffer. Suppliers, lawn crews, fire marshalls, airlines.
^ Most people I know eventually go stir crazy at home for various reasons I won't mention here 8). And, not sure day care would suffer with home workers still needing to focus on work during the day.
Home offices may actually increase the desire of people to get out and about, be it the outdoors, restaurants, travel, entertainment, recreation, sporting events, etc. more than now as those become the more central escapes from home life. The big loss will be those jobs supporting commuting and office buildings. But, as the world has always done, for every job lost at least one more pops up.
Just thinking about all the stables, barns, wooden fence and pole makers, pasture developers, feed stores, veterinarians, leather crafters, saddle makers, farriers, outdoor clothing manufacturers, stage coach industry, milliners, Pony Express, etc. that lost jobs when the automobile arrived. How many lost jobs in the passenger railroad business when airlines became commonplace? How many jobs were we supposed to lose with advent of automation, AI and robots?
With people sequestered in homes, I have more concern for the ability of our society to sustain some level of social skills already diminishing in the face of technology.
Go ahead and wack off two more floors. It will be a seven-story structure now. In addition, a 40,000 square foot emergency operations center will be constructed at an undetermined site elsewhere:
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200515/jea-downsizes-planned-headquarters-building-in-downtown-jacksonville
You'd think it would be easier and cheaper to stay where they are.
Poor Ryan companies. They probably rue the day they got involved with JEA.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 15, 2020, 02:23:06 PM
Poor Ryan companies. They probably rue the day they got involved with JEA.
They will definitely make money on the building, regardless of its size.
Quote
JEA currently owns two office towers in downtown that have 360,000 square feet of space for 960 employees who work there, which JEA says its far too much space for that workforce.
Stein said those buildings are a "ticking time bomb" because of all the maintenance needed for them.
"I think these buildings need to be demolished," Stein said.
Ouch.
Quote
During the workshop Friday, board members coalesced around a plan for a 152,000-square-foot building with a 742-space parking garage. The garage would have space for use by the nearby State Attorney's Office, though board members wanted more information about whether JEA would get a return on that expense from leasing revenue.
"We're not in the parking business," board Chairman John Baker said.
JEA would build and own a new 40,000-square-foot building at a site yet to be determined.
I wonder where.
1. Definitely a building that will need to be proactively landmarked. Luckily, like the FBC Sunday School building and unlike Doro, it's already listed as a contributing structure to the National Register Downtown Historic District.
2. There should definitely be a push to make sure this is somewhere downtown and occupying a former surface parking lot, as opposed to taking out another historic building.
Quote from: fieldafm on May 15, 2020, 02:50:49 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 15, 2020, 02:23:06 PM
Poor Ryan companies. They probably rue the day they got involved with JEA.
They will definitely make money on the building, regardless of its size.
I hope they make a lot, because JEA has put them through it.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2020, 03:25:55 PM
1. Definitely a building that will need to be proactively landmarked. Luckily, like the FBC Sunday School building and unlike Doro, it's already listed as a contributing structure to the National Register Downtown Historic District.
Going to post my own quote here.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 15, 2020, 04:23:47 PM
Let's be radical here.
We're talking about lobbying for the city to designate these buildings as landmarks. Thanks to you, Lake, there's a list (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36017.msg502264.html#msg502264) of buildings to at least start with.
So why don't we do what many lobbyists do, and in the words of Bernie Sanders, just "write the damn bill(s)?"
Here's (http://cityclts.coj.net/coj/COJbillDetail.asp?F=2019-0201%5CCurrent%20Text) a link to the most recent landmarking bill, for Mount Sinai Missionary Baptist Church.
Is there a group of people here who would be interested in taking this bill, and adapting it for each of the buildings on that list? I'm talking about doing the dirty groundwork so that all Council has to do is sign off. Who'd be down?
Quote
2. There should definitely be a push to make sure this is somewhere downtown and occupying a former surface parking lot, as opposed to taking out another historic building.
To be fair, isn't the point of an emergency operations center to be in a place that would be more immune to an emergency? Is downtown the safest place for that?
To landmark, you'd need a sponsor and that would have to pretty much be the property owner/agent, HPC, the mayors office or a council member. Best thing to do would be to do the initial research of the 2 to 4 of 7 criteria needed for landmark designation and supply that information to HPC staff. If the owner is on board, it makes it a lot easier. The research to justify landmarking under the 307.104 would be the most important and time consuming aspect.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 15, 2020, 04:29:09 PM
To be fair, isn't the point of an emergency operations center to be in a place that would be more immune to an emergency? Is downtown the safest place for that?
Centralized location, adaquate infrastructure, accessibility, etc. makes downtown a great location......as long as you keep it off the lower lying areas along the river.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2020, 07:20:20 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 15, 2020, 04:29:09 PM
To be fair, isn't the point of an emergency operations center to be in a place that would be more immune to an emergency? Is downtown the safest place for that?
Centralized location, adaquate infrastructure, accessibility, etc. makes downtown a great location......as long as you keep it off the lower lying areas along the river.
JEA already has a very sophisticated emergency operations center in the City. I am not sure why they need another one unless they want an even more hardened building than the one they have.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2020, 07:17:41 PM
To landmark, you'd need a sponsor and that would have to pretty much be the property owner/agent, HPC, the mayors office or a council member. Best thing to do would be to do the initial research of the 2 to 4 of 7 criteria needed for landmark designation and supply that information to HPC staff. If the owner is on board, it makes it a lot easier. The research to justify landmarking under the 307.104 would be the most important and time consuming aspect.
Sponsors should also include neighborhood associations that have registered/qualified with the City. And, with Downtown having many significant and highly visible historic buildings, DIA should also be allowed to be a sponsor. After all, they are an arm of the City too and have a vested interest in these outcomes to accomplish their mission of developing Downtown.
Yes. Our policies and how we work with them make demolition an easy option.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2020, 03:25:55 PM
1. Definitely a building that will need to be proactively landmarked. Luckily, like the FBC Sunday School building and unlike Doro, it's already listed as a contributing structure to the National Register Downtown Historic District.
2. There should definitely be a push to make sure this is somewhere downtown and occupying a former surface parking lot, as opposed to taking out another historic building.
Or moving out to the suburbs!
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 15, 2020, 04:29:09 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2020, 03:25:55 PM
1. Definitely a building that will need to be proactively landmarked. Luckily, like the FBC Sunday School building and unlike Doro, it's already listed as a contributing structure to the National Register Downtown Historic District.
Going to post my own quote here.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 15, 2020, 04:23:47 PM
Let's be radical here.
We're talking about lobbying for the city to designate these buildings as landmarks. Thanks to you, Lake, there's a list (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36017.msg502264.html#msg502264) of buildings to at least start with.
So why don't we do what many lobbyists do, and in the words of Bernie Sanders, just "write the damn bill(s)?"
Here's (http://cityclts.coj.net/coj/COJbillDetail.asp?F=2019-0201%5CCurrent%20Text) a link to the most recent landmarking bill, for Mount Sinai Missionary Baptist Church.
Is there a group of people here who would be interested in taking this bill, and adapting it for each of the buildings on that list? I'm talking about doing the dirty groundwork so that all Council has to do is sign off. Who'd be down?
Quote
2. There should definitely be a push to make sure this is somewhere downtown and occupying a former surface parking lot, as opposed to taking out another historic building.
To be fair, isn't the point of an emergency operations center to be in a place that would be more immune to an emergency? Is downtown the safest place for that?
IMO because of downtown's history of flooding from the river during intense storms, hurricanes, etc., downtown is not a good place for it; however, there are places in downtown that I think should be considered, like LaVilla, Brooklyn (west end), etc. It can be done, rather than moving out to the suburbs on the southside; and I'll bet that's what they're thinking.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2020, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on May 15, 2020, 07:42:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2020, 07:17:41 PM
To landmark, you'd need a sponsor and that would have to pretty much be the property owner/agent, HPC, the mayors office or a council member. Best thing to do would be to do the initial research of the 2 to 4 of 7 criteria needed for landmark designation and supply that information to HPC staff. If the owner is on board, it makes it a lot easier. The research to justify landmarking under the 307.104 would be the most important and time consuming aspect.
Sponsors should also include neighborhood associations that have registered/qualified with the City. And, with Downtown having many significant and highly visible historic buildings, DIA should also be allowed to be a sponsor. After all, they are an arm of the City too and have a vested interest in these outcomes to accomplish their mission of developing Downtown.
Yes. Our policies and how we work with them make demolition an easy option.
So the goal has to be making
landmarking an easy option. Which is why my point is that what we should be accomplishing is making it so that all a sponsor, be a council member, HPC, and/or the sponsor would need to do is say "yes."
The reason lobbyists are so successful in government isn't just because they do some initial research, it's because they can walk up to a lawmaker and say "here's something that makes you look good, add your name here and vote here." (I know, it's more complicated than this)
Especially because it sounds like the Universal Marion isn't exactly favored for such status by JEA's board, we have to make it as possible as we can that it is harder to say no than it is to say yes to landmarking.
I definitely get your point. We've successfully gone up against the lobbyist in the past on various initiatives. An effective way to fight is to make sure you understand the policies and work within that system by using it to your advantage. In the case of demolition of unprotected buildings, that's feeding staff the extra information they need prior to any development materializing on a specific piece of property. When you have the material to meet criteria, it becomes pretty easy to find the sponsor. It becomes more effective when you're tackling these random sites well before someone hired by a developer to lobby even enters the picture. We've got to get to them well before a rendering or new development proposal is announced to the public.
I think the overall goal would be to save as many unprotected buildings as possible. If a property owner is on board, it's pretty simple. You only need to meet 2 of 7 criteria. When we got Allen Chapel AME in Brooklyn landmarked last year, that was the case. It may be the case with the Whetstonian, since the owner has given us approval to pursue landmarking. Staff is aware but I need to sit down and help them do a bit of the upfront research homework since they don't have a lot of staff dedicated to preservation to begin with.
If the owner is in opposition, you'll need to meet 4 of 7. This is where the community support will come into play. FBC is a good example of this. The good thing is Curry's demolition spree has already built the community support for preservation and there are quite a few councilmembers concerned as well. For sites where the property owner objects, preservation staff and those council members will need an open and shut case, plus community support. Those will have to be tackled on a case-by-case basis.
Luckily, since the JEA Tower is a contributing structure, it can't be randomly razed without approval by the HPC, regardless of what the new board members (who don't have an architectural or structural engineering background) may think. The ignorance is shown by calling a $65 million renovation job demo level. That building is probably three times the size of the Laura Street Trio and that's a $90 million job. I believe the Barnett (much smaller) was close to $55-$60 million.
At this point, they are probably just as clueless of the JEA building being a contributing historic district structure as FBC was with the Sunday School building. No matter what, the public will have their chance to fight any potential demo with JEA a year or two from now. So, I think there's great opportunity to spend the next few months helping HPC staff and building community support for the JEA Tower by sharing it's history in a way that aligns with the 7 criteria needed for landmark designation. On the other hand, the unprotected buildings that don't have to go before HPC for demo are the ones we'll need to work a bit faster on.
JEA Board approved the smaller headquarters:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-board-approves-smaller-headquarters-will-seek-second-hardened-building
They also confirmed they're going to do a 40k SqFt "Hardened" building. While 2 buildings downtown might be cool....this thing sounds like it could be an unattractive bunker.
It sounds unattractive. Hopefully they can find a surface parking lot on a secondary downtown street to put it on. My fear is, knowing this town, they'll find a historically significant building to take out for their box.
Quote from: Steve on May 21, 2020, 09:19:44 PM
JEA Board approved the smaller headquarters:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-board-approves-smaller-headquarters-will-seek-second-hardened-building
They also confirmed they're going to do a 40k SqFt "Hardened" building. While 2 buildings downtown might be cool....this thing sounds like it could be an unattractive bunker.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 21, 2020, 09:57:38 PM
It sounds unattractive. Hopefully they can find a surface parking lot on a secondary downtown street to put it on. My fear is, knowing this town, they'll find a historically significant building to take out for their box.
Repeating my comment earlier in this thread. Maybe someone could explain to me why another bunker is needed. Based on the location of the current center, it won't be near Downtown.
Quote
JEA already has a very sophisticated emergency operations center in the City. I am not sure why they need another one unless they want an even more hardened building than the one they have.
Quote from: Steve on May 21, 2020, 09:19:44 PM
JEA Board approved the smaller headquarters:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-board-approves-smaller-headquarters-will-seek-second-hardened-building
They also confirmed they're going to do a 40k SqFt "Hardened" building. While 2 buildings downtown might be cool....this thing sounds like it could be an unattractive bunker.
Oh fiddlesticks!!!!!!!
Quote from: thelakelander on May 21, 2020, 09:57:38 PM
It sounds unattractive. Hopefully they can find a surface parking lot on a secondary downtown street to put it on. My fear is, knowing this town, they'll find a historically significant building to take out for their box.
Yeah; they're scared to build anything new or unusual that will improve the skyline; and no, I'm not talking necessarily tall though I love tall buildings; but those just doesn't suit Jacksonville.
Here it is.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/downtown-development-review-board-signs-off-on-smaller-jea-headquarters-downtown
They kept the design and lopped some floors off. There's extra retail space under the parking garage (7,170 sq ft to 10,690 sq ft) which has rounded corners now.
Some choice quotes:
QuoteThe board approved a larger JEA headquarters in December, with an estimated construction cost of $78 million and 200,000 square feet of space. The latest version would cost $64 million to $68 million to build.
QuoteTo increase space efficiency, Ryan staff architect Jon Jay said an outdoor terrace planned for the sixth floor was removed and replaced with office space, and space was reduced for the seventh-floor outdoor terrace.
QuoteThe new headquarters will house about 784 JEA employees. About 200-220 workers will work at the 40,000-square-foot facility.
I didn't get the presentation in advance. I'll follow up and post the full thing here, so everyone will have a better understanding of what's planned.
I'd like to see how the retail space was increased. Sometimes retail space is shown on a rendering but it's not a very practical use. If it is all truly useable, then that's certainly a positive.
Yeah, I'm interested to see if there's more retail frontage on Adams Street. It's one of the few corridors left in downtown where you have continuous blocks of interactive pedestrian scaled places along the sidewalks instead of blank walls and surface parking lots.
Also, I'm really curious where they plan for this 40,000 SqFt hardened building. This has bunker written all over it.
To me the ideal site would be abutting something like I-95, next to something that has a chance to be active use as outside of employees during the workday, I'm not sure this building is going to add much to downtown.
Knowing our history and how we view downtown, I totally expect it to end up in a historically black area of downtown...so either in or close to LaVilla and the Black Bottom (basically the State/Union/Beaver corridor tying LaVilla to the Eastside). At the very least, if it is blank walls, I'd love to see some heritage type placemaking included into the design. This water plant in the middle of Denver's historic Five Points is a good example:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Denver-2019/i-LhpTv7b/0/53f004fb/X2/20191215_121232-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Denver-2019/i-fDC2mWT/0/d6a2b297/X2/20191215_121551-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Denver-2019/i-rHQJX3r/0/6021c5dd/X3/20191215_121344-X2.jpg)
Now that people are more racially woke, this would be a good opportunity to get these types of things included to activate some of our pedestrian hostile spaces.
Quote from: Steve on June 15, 2020, 10:26:04 AM
Also, I'm really curious where they plan for this 40,000 SqFt hardened building. This has bunker written all over it.
To me the ideal site would be abutting something like I-95, next to something that has a chance to be active use as outside of employees during the workday, I'm not sure this building is going to add much to downtown.
I have noted before that JEA already has a remote emergency operations center. It's well outside of downtown. Low profile for obvious reasons. Again, not sure why they need another one. Maybe they expand the one they have if they have the land for it.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 15, 2020, 07:35:30 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 15, 2020, 10:26:04 AM
Also, I'm really curious where they plan for this 40,000 SqFt hardened building. This has bunker written all over it.
To me the ideal site would be abutting something like I-95, next to something that has a chance to be active use as outside of employees during the workday, I'm not sure this building is going to add much to downtown.
I have noted before that JEA already has a remote emergency operations center. It's well outside of downtown. Low profile for obvious reasons. Again, not sure why they need another one. Maybe they expand the one they have if they have the land for it.
I was told it's a best practices thing and that most of the other big utilities do similar. Zahn was aware of that but didn't want to do it so he could have a big tower in addition to the millions of dollars he was trying to get. I don't know why they arent doing it at the current site, if they plan on merging the current site to the new one, etc.
They don't need the space in the existing tower and it appears they want to be a single tenant entity. Even with the hardened building included, the new building would have been 1/2 the size of the existing. With that said, I'd rather have those +200 employees in that hardened building working in downtown than out in the boonies.
Here is the updated ground floor plan. The cafe in the main lobby has disappeared from the plan (same space but text has been removed) and the retail in the garage now has more realistic and useable depth.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/JEA-Headquarters-Final-Concept/i-BkTM8jc/0/e2883efb/X3/20200612_DDRB%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_077-X3.jpg)
Wow. I actually like it better. I'm really surprised (pleasantly):
- The retail space now has a nice corner on Adams, so used right the retail is now on Adams and Julia. The Monroe and Julia one is as well, but has the staircase in the way so that location is a little less desirable (also since Monroe has a break at the courthouse.)
- I'd be happy for JEA to not put a cafe in their building. Have their employees walk across to eat and support a local business. Or, get a food place in the retail spaces on Julia - this way the restaurant can serve the general public.
The more retail the merrier, IMO. Now that I look at it, the design still leaves the possibility of doing some interesting things with the main lobby space, including the inclusion of a deli or coffeehouse. Looking at things from a bird's eye level, Adams Street is one of the few that can easily offer five to six continuous blocks of pedestrian scaled retail and dining frontage. So the more spaces that interact at the human scaled level, the better. Overall, activating the corridors of Adams, Julia, Hogan, Laura will be the things that change the image of DT Jax. Even moreso than activating the riverfront with greenspace and the Elbow with more entertainment uses. That older, urban strip with its diverse range of historic human scaled architecture being alive and spilling out into the riverfront can quickly alter the general impression most have of DT. We just have to be smart enough to not screw it up with infill pedestrian hostile walls, uses and designs. So it will really be interesting to see where JEA's hardened structure goes and how it fits in with whatever is around it.
QuoteJEA shrinks plan for new downtown headquarters
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/JEA-Headquarters-Ryan-Companies/i-frnz2L4/0/3535cddb/L/NewJEArendering-L.jpg)
An illustrative before and after look at JEA's scaled down plans for a new downtown headquarters complex.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/jea-shrinks-plan-for-new-downtown-headquarters/
Looking at the more detailed first floor plan (with the red notes), I have some questions about the first floor of the garage. But, first, I am glad the retail space will be bigger.
1. It looks like the retail space is divided into two 'stores', both from the internal wall, and door placement. Is it flexible and big enough to be divided further?
2. Is the "corridor" shown between the retail and the garage public, or is it a service access?
3. Only two ADA parking spaces on the first floor? Also, the path from them to either the JEA Lobby, or the retail, seems rather long and indirect.
4. Could the area on either side of the Adams Street entrance still accommodate a deli or coffee shop?
Great article, and I like the new building.
Minneapolis developer pays $2.6 million for JEA HQ site
Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/minneapolis-developer-pays-dollar2-6-million-for-jea-hq-site
If this is the market rate price for a full prime downtown block, demolishing the existing JEA Tower does not make financial sense. It would take a lot more than $2.6 million to demolish a structure that large. City Hall Annex and the Old County Courthouse were smaller and they cost $8 million to raze.
Interesting to compare the two pictures and see how chopping two floors off looks.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/294542_standard.jpeg?itok=ENCNHMWz)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/300842_standard.jpeg?itok=qEhlJNvW)
Could be better, but it could certainly be a lot worse. Sorry HeightsUnknown.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 01, 2020, 08:54:09 AM
If this is the market rate price for a full prime downtown block, demolishing the existing JEA Tower does not make financial sense. It would take a lot more than $2.6 million to demolish a structure that large. City Hall Annex and the Old County Courthouse were smaller and they cost $8 million to raze.
Whoever said demolition had to make financial sense in Jacksonville?
Speaking of the Annex and Courthouse, I wonder how that Spandrel project is going. Hopefully they and the Hyatt figure out a solution for some kind of exhibition space, open up Union Terminal for redevelopment. Would be nice to sell off the terminal to Virgin and get a sweet TOD setup in LaVilla.
The shorter, value engineered version looks worse. The design has elements that look better on a taller structure. Overall it is too little density on a prime CBD site. In any other major Florida city that garage is integrated into the structure and not side by side. But whatever.
The garage should be integrated into the building like Lake said. They could make floors 3-6 garage space without affecting the overall height / footprint of the original design. It would better activate the street level, provide better security and still alleviate any risk from floods, by keeping the cars and offices above ground level. Not to mention it would look better and be better use of land.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on July 01, 2020, 02:21:22 PM
The garage should be integrated into the building like Lake said. They could make floors 3-6 garage space without affecting the overall height / footprint of the original design. It would better activate the street level, provide better security and still alleviate any risk from floods, by keeping the cars and offices above ground level. Not to mention it would look better and be better use of land.
True, but I'm guessing that would be more expensive. The garage itself is likely a "tilt-up" Preston Haskell special. If you integrate in the building then it has to support the building above. Plus, as pointed out the land is (in the scheme of things) pretty cheap here. It's much cheaper to go out than up and if you put the garage on the bottom, then you don't need as many floors of office since the floor plates would be much bigger.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 01, 2020, 09:56:14 AM
Interesting to compare the two pictures and see how chopping two floors off looks.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/294542_standard.jpeg?itok=ENCNHMWz)
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/300842_standard.jpeg?itok=qEhlJNvW)
Could be better, but it could certainly be a lot worse. Sorry HeightsUnknown.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 01, 2020, 08:54:09 AM
If this is the market rate price for a full prime downtown block, demolishing the existing JEA Tower does not make financial sense. It would take a lot more than $2.6 million to demolish a structure that large. City Hall Annex and the Old County Courthouse were smaller and they cost $8 million to raze.
Whoever said demolition had to make financial sense in Jacksonville?
Speaking of the Annex and Courthouse, I wonder how that Spandrel project is going. Hopefully they and the Hyatt figure out a solution for some kind of exhibition space, open up Union Terminal for redevelopment. Would be nice to sell off the terminal to Virgin and get a sweet TOD setup in LaVilla.
I know; but don't be sorry...this is Jax so what do you expect? Why don't they just make it one story...that'll make everyone happy.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 01, 2020, 01:10:34 PM
The shorter, value engineered version looks worse. The design has elements that look better on a taller structure. Overall it is too little density on a prime CBD site. In any other major Florida city that garage is integrated into the structure and not side by side. But whatever.
Lake, agree. Looks like a giant stepped on the building and squished it down ;D! The angles from the roof down emulate the impression of that giant's footprint.
Work on JEA's next headquarters to begin by next week
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/work-on-jeas-next-headquarters-to-begin-by-next-week
What a ride. Remember when we were worried it was going to be Lot J?
A wild ride resulting with a federal investigation and more firings of senior level staff. Go figure!
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-fires-nine-former-senior-leadership-team-members-without-cause
Best part is that it isn't over. Investigation results aside, they still have to find a DT space for the 40k square feet they value engineered out of this building and there will likely be a debate over what happens with the existing historic structure.
Construction fencing and new HQ signage up.
Crews on site and work appears underway.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QJcdLGT/311-CD9-F5-9986-440-B-BF35-36-FD03-F9-EB04.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qtjqz8m3/A0-D3352-A-E395-4-ACA-A192-B4-E701-B309-A8.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvTgNLxp/C65-B9-D0-E-47-ED-4-E10-887-F-5-A668-F7-B935-B.jpg)
Will probably be too short in height for cranes yes?
I'd assume this one will have a crane, given the construction type.
Would be nice to sell off the terminal to Virgin and get a sweet TOD setup in LaVilla.
[/quote]
Short of some new legal uber twist, Virgin's been 86'd. Brightline's given them the Heisman.
Right. After further consideration on top of that, the better comment is:
Quote from: marcuscnelson
Would be nice to do a P3 for the terminal with Brightline and Amtrak to get a sweet TOD setup in LaVilla. That parking lot is ripe for development.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 21, 2020, 03:06:10 PM
Right. After further consideration on top of that, the better comment is:
Quote from: marcuscnelson
Would be nice to do a P3 for the terminal with Brightline and Amtrak to get a sweet TOD setup in LaVilla. That parking lot is ripe for development.
Let's not forget commuter rail! Wasn't some survey given to the south line in St. John's county a few years ago? Wonder what is going on with that?
JTA has talked about commuter rail for 20 years now. It's not a priority like the U2C, which popped up from scratch a few years back. Nevertheless, as much as I am a proponent of fixed transit's ability to assist with TOD, I'm not even sure you want JTA running commuter rail if you want that rail project to be successful and viable long term. Any talk of commuter rail on the FEC would make more sense if it followed a potential Jax expansion of Brightline. In the event that happened and included a station in St. Augustine/St. Johns County, one could question if commuter rail along that corridor would be a viable need at all.
Quote from: itsfantastic1 on September 21, 2020, 04:51:24 PM
Let's not forget commuter rail! Wasn't some survey given to the south line in St. John's county a few years ago? Wonder what is going on with that?
I totally agree! I was just talking about the terminal specifically.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2020, 05:31:36 PM
JTA has talked about commuter rail for 20 years now. It's not a priority like the U2C, which popped up from scratch a few years back. Nevertheless, as much as I am a proponent of fixed transit's ability to assist with TOD, I'm not even sure you want JTA running commuter rail if you want that rail project to be successful and viable long term. Any talk of commuter rail on the FEC would make more sense if it followed a potential Jax expansion of Brightline. In the event that happened and included a station in St. Augustine/St. Johns County, one could question if commuter rail along that corridor would be a viable need at all.
Seems JTA has their hands full, irrespective of how well they're handling it. Brightline looks to be getting into the commuter rail business with Coastal Link (https://wynwoodmiami.com/support-commuter-rail-to-reduce-traffic-in-miami-dade-county/) from Aventura down to MiamiCentral. It might be worth noting that both Tri-Rail and SunRail are
operated by other companies, not state-established agencies; although the Sounder out west is operated on
behalf of a public transit agency.
It'd certainly make sense to at least put an RFP out for a St. Augustine-Downtown line, especially if it connects to places like Palencia, Nocatee/Twin Creeks, and Durbin Park/Race Track (the last plans hit 2/3 of those). Right now the word is that Ponte Vedra Beach and Nocatee want a new road going north from Nocatee to connect with SR-9B. Providing a less expansive and sprawl-inducing option would be a good idea.
FDOT owns SunRail with Bombardier operating it. The area it serves is significantly larger and denser than anything along the FEC between St. Augustine and Downtown. It's a 61 mile long system and it barely averages more daily ridership than the Skyway did pre-COVID and JRTC construction. Palencia, Nocatee, CR 210, etc. would need to pack in some real density around the FEC to create the conditions for a viable commuter rail line to work. To date, despite 20 years of talk, no one in Jax or St. Johns has modified the land use to allow for the incremental growth of the type of density to support commuter rail.
You can't put out a RFP for a St. Augustine-Downtown line without money or the rights/agreement to run something on the FEC. If applying for federal and state assistance, you'll need years of studies and time to compete nationally with more worthwhile projects also fighting for that limited funding. It's not event a priority of JTA at this point, so whenever it does become one, you can start the clock over because everything they've said and done in the past would be out-of-date.
I think for it to truly be viable along the FEC in the long term, things will need to implemented incrementally to take advantage of infrastructure improvements that could possibly be funded by other entities. For example, if Amtrak ran down the FEC, you'd likely end up with stations in Downtown Jacksonville and St. Augustine, along with some track improvements along the corridor. That would give the entire FEC the ability to potentially have a corridor service similar to what Amtrak runs with hourly trains between LA and San Diego. Brightline could do the same thing and Brightline already has rights to operate passenger services into Jax. Anything that gets you hourly service is more than adequate for the low density in that corridor. If locals are willing to push denser, mixed-use development around the walkshed of potential station sites, you could come back later with a more traditional commuter rail type system along the corridor. Nevertheless, with the COVID thing right now, none of this is happening.
So for JTA, the most realistic and best thing for dreams of local commuter rail that they can do now, is get the Amtrak station back downtown, across the street from the JRTC in LaVilla.
How in hell can 7 stories enhance the downtown skyline? Sheesh! I guess its better than nothing; and...if you're rolling into downtown on one of the bridges, you might be able to see the JEA headquarters once finished; otherwise.......
Chalk this up as win Heights. It's better than a Daily's Gas Station taking up a city block in DT.
Yeah I'm shocked this is moving forward after the horrendous year JEA has had. I'm glad it will fill in that area of downtown and I just hope the old building gets reused.
Heights you should be happy with the double cranes on the FIS site. It's pretty impressive. I think this month's construction update will get you pretty hyped.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on September 24, 2020, 07:56:54 AM
Chalk this up as win Heights. It's better than a Daily's Gas Station taking up a city block in DT.
I agree, Jags I agree; so let me shut up before its cancelled.
Quote from: heights unknown on September 23, 2020, 11:02:36 PMif you're rolling into downtown on one of the bridges, you might be able to see the JEA headquarters once finished; otherwise.......
Maybe. It's boxed in pretty good by taller buildings from that direction.
Just saw article on Daily Record that they have closed on land in LaVilla for the Hardened building. Two parcels on both sides of Jefferson St substation across from LaVilla School of the Arts.
What are the east/west streets for the block? I can't find a JEA substation along Jefferson across from LaVill School on G-Maps.
I was hoping it would go east of Broad, south of State and west of Liberty. Hopefully they'll put the building on Davis Street and their parking lot next to I-95.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 17, 2020, 05:46:02 PM
What are the east/west streets for the block? I can't find a JEA substation along Jefferson across from LaVill School on G-Maps.
Ashley and Church are the east west streets.
Here's the JDR article.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-board-approves-land-buy-for-hardened-emergency-headquarters
Quote from: thelakelander on November 17, 2020, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 17, 2020, 05:46:02 PM
What are the east/west streets for the block? I can't find a JEA substation along Jefferson across from LaVill School on G-Maps.
Ashley and Church are the east west streets.
Ahhh, across DAVIS Street, Jefferson's last name. :D
What's the elevation there?
I'm not sure but I don't recall that area of LaVilla being flood prone. It's quite elevated compared to when you get closer to McCoys Creek and the river.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 17, 2020, 06:25:12 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 17, 2020, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 17, 2020, 05:46:02 PM
What are the east/west streets for the block? I can't find a JEA substation along Jefferson across from LaVill School on G-Maps.
Ashley and Church are the east west streets.
Ahhh, across DAVIS Street, Jefferson's last name. :D
Wait, what?
Is that really who that street is named for?
Most likely. Several streets in LaVilla and Brooklyn are named after Confederates.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 17, 2020, 05:46:02 PM
What are the east/west streets for the block? I can't find a JEA substation along Jefferson across from LaVill School on G-Maps.
Sorry for the confusion, is the Church St substation.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 17, 2020, 06:47:43 PM
I'm not sure but I don't recall that area of LaVilla being flood prone. It's quite elevated compared to when you get closer to McCoys Creek and the river.
Per the article the site is not located in a City Hurricane Evacuation Zone or within FEMA's 100 Year Flood plain.
QuoteThe building is designed as 162,741 square feet among seven occupiable floors and the penthouse mechanical level, so it is listed as eight levels.
Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/ryan-applies-for-permit-to-build-jea-headquarters-downtown
$191 per SF. Plug $200 per SF into the Lot J numbers and you get .....
Quote from: vicupstate on December 11, 2020, 12:11:29 PM
$191 per SF. Plug $200 per SF into the Lot J numbers and you get .....
Apartments, hotel rooms and retail spaces cost more to construct than what are basically blank floorplates with some inexpensive partitions, different sprinkler and plubming requirements and one or two restroom banks per floor. JEA's building is pretty significantly value-engineered. Mixed use residential/retail/structured parking is more like $260-375 per sq ft (depending on how high end you get) at today's construction prices.
That said, I'm the first one to admit that the Lot J and the previous ampitheater/practice field numbers look inflated... even given that Lot J numbers likely include retail fit out costs as the Jags/Cordish will be joint operators in some way of at least the larger retail uses.
^^ Mid-rise apartments are mostly stick-built, not steel and concrete are they not? Lower ceilings too.
Quote from: vicupstate on December 11, 2020, 02:30:43 PM
^^ Mid-rise apartments are mostly stick-built, not steel and concrete are they not? Lower ceilings too.
The mixed use building (residential and retail) w/ structured parking that will replace the Doro building, one block away from Lot J, is going to pencil out around $265/sq ft. That's a pretty basic structure architecturally (not a complaint, just reality). If finishes were nicer, that could balloon to $270+/sq ft. Better facade treatments, then more cost is added. Some of the nicer (speaking to architecture and amenities) buildings in West Palm Beach or Midtown Atlanta are certainly eclipsing the $300/sq ft mark. If the developer paid for fit out of the operating businesses (likely to occur at Lot J) within the project, that is easily another $50/sq ft. Add in some kind of fancy outdoor amenities, stage, sound and lighting systems... figure another $20-30/sq ft.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2020, 11:48:32 AM
QuoteThe building is designed as 162,741 square feet among seven occupiable floors and the penthouse mechanical level, so it is listed as eight levels.
Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/ryan-applies-for-permit-to-build-jea-headquarters-downtown
Whoopee doo.
Oh.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-requests-permit-for-dollar1-8-million-emergency-operations-center-build-out
This one kind a came out of the blue. So JEA isn't going to demolish their existing tower (great) or build an emergency operations center in LaVilla now. I don't know how I feel about public agencies moving jobs out of downtown but $1.8 million is much cheaper than options considered in the past. Nevertheless, they need to sell that LaVilla land. The last thing LaVilla needs is another public entity hampering redevelopment with a long term tie up of two vacant blocks of neighborhood land.
This EOC has been the issue the entire time. Apparently, it was always best practice to put it separately from the main HQ. But under Aaron Zahn, he wanted a palace to go with his "plans" for JEA so he included it in the original HQ plan. Even though it's been changed, we're still dealing with the fallout and opportunity cost of the sale fiasco.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 14, 2022, 09:10:16 AM
This one kind a came out of the blue. So JEA isn't going to demolish their existing tower (great) or build an emergency operations center in LaVilla now. I don't know how I feel about public agencies moving jobs out of downtown but $1.8 million is much cheaper than options considered in the past. Nevertheless, they need to sell that LaVilla land. The last thing LaVilla needs is another public entity hampering redevelopment with a long term tie up of two vacant blocks of neighborhood land.
Looks like JEA paid $1+ million/acre for the LaVilla property (I wonder if that is above the market for that area). I see the there is already an electrical substation nearby. Any chance they use this for additional or expanded utility infrastructure? Not necessarily good for LaVilla but maybe JEA has limits on where it can place such infrastructure?