Any chance that this COVID19 crap will create an impetus to get rid of beg buttons?
Huh?
Beg buttons are the buttons you push to activate pedestrian crossing signals. They're a high-touch surface that you don't want to be touching during a global pandemic, and the thinking is they somehow discourage walking by prioritizing vehicle traffic over pedestrian traffic. Seems overblown to me. There are sensors in the pavement that activate traffic signals for cars, and there are buttons that activate traffic signals for pedestrians. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on April 22, 2020, 11:01:50 AM
Shows you how much I know. I though he met Go Fund Me links.
You are not alone ... and MJ doesn't have those.
Wonder what it would cost to remove them all? And the signals would have to be re-timed to add pedestrian phases to each cycle of each signal.
It seems like you could create a no-touch version of the "Beg Buttons" by like waving a hand underneath a sensor or something.
I see why they are there - some intersections don't make sense to make every green phase long enough for a pedestrian to cross every single time. Think San Jose Blvd in southern Mandarin - a lightly used sidestreet would have to have a green long enough for a pedestrian to cross San Jose every time (6 lane divided highway with turn lanes). Likely not good for traffic.
On the other hand, intersections in the urban core should have these removed, and the signals timed to allow a pedestrian crossing every time - there's a lot more pedestrians (thus more people touching buttons) and the streets generally are narrower so timing wouldn't be affected much.
You could then phase in some sort of "hand wave" device in the suburbs - plus a button may go a week without being pressed anyway so it's less of a risk.
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2020, 11:51:03 AM
It seems like you could create a no-touch version of the "Beg Buttons" by like waving a hand underneath a sensor or something.
There is at least one intersection in Jacksonville with some type of sensor. It's at the corner of San Jose and Haley Road, across from Etz Chaim Synagogue. As an Orthodox Jewish congregation, their members are not allowed to hit a button on the Sabbath to trigger the pedestrian crossing.
Tragically, a woman was killed and her daughter severely injured there in 2013. Not hitting the button at the time may have been a contributing factor (note, the driver was cited and it was his second time killing a pedestrian on San Jose within a short time).
Below is an excerpt of one article relating to the incident. The comment about hitting the buttons to get extra crossing time is an issue everywhere as most people do not know that is an advantage of the buttons and FDOT doesn't publicize it well, if at all. Also, if you don't use the buttons, you don't get the walk timer countdown clock so you have no idea how much time you do have to cross.
QuoteThe blame, Patacca said, might not go entirely to Fortunato but to the design of the intersection at San Jose Boulevard and Haley Road. If they pushed the walk button, the Orthodox Jewish families crossing the street would have had about 50 seconds, according to the state Department of Transportation. Because of the Jewish law, they couldn't push the button, so they had about 11 seconds to cross eight lanes.
At the time, Orthodox Jewish families walking across the street didn't know how many seconds they had. After the incident, the state department installed a camera sensor that activates the walking signal automatically.
https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20150914/NEWS/801253120 (https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20150914/NEWS/801253120)
I saw at the Mayo Clinic photoelectric beams you pass through to activate cross walk flashing lights. You don't even realize they are there, so it is quite passive.
Interesting - didn't know they were already in use (or about the horrible incident at the Synagogue.
If that's the case, remove them entirely in the urban core (just activate the ped crossing every time, and retrofit all of the suburban crosswalks over a period of time.
Aren't the vast majority of intersections downtown already button-free?
Quote from: Peter Griffin on April 22, 2020, 03:55:31 PM
Aren't the vast majority of intersections downtown already button-free?
Downtown yes, with some exceptions like the intersections at the base of the bridges. They should do the same in neighborhoods like Riverside, Avondale, Murray Hill, San Marco, Springfield, Durkeeville, Mixon Town, etc. Basically, any neighborhood that is pedestrian oriented.
FDOT/City should tie pedestrian crossing improvements with their "intelligent transportation" technology they keep saying is on the way. Really shouldn't be a stretch in that situation.
Between cameras, sensors and software, they will be able to read our minds and monitor our movements at all times 8). Big Brother is here!
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2020, 04:15:51 PM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on April 22, 2020, 03:55:31 PM
Aren't the vast majority of intersections downtown already button-free?
Downtown yes, with some exceptions like the intersections at the base of the bridges. They should do the same in neighborhoods like Riverside, Avondale, Murray Hill, San Marco, Springfield, Durkeeville, Mixon Town, etc. Basically, any neighborhood that is pedestrian oriented.
Question: can a neighborhood be pedestrian oriented without sidewalks? I love Murray Hill, but you're walking in the road.
I was thinking about all of the buttons and touching associated with getting gas...
The pandemic will definitely expedite the transition to contactless payments. The first time I visited Publix after they had their plexiglass screens up in front of the cashiers, I saw that the POS systems were now accepting NFC payments for the first time.
Gas stations have been dragging their feet on updating their credit card systems the most of all retail verticals, so hopefully this forces their hand even more than the threat of being held liable for fraud. Still have the touch the damn pumps though :-\
I had no idea that's what these sensors were called until reading this article but here's an interesting article from Streets Blog about what some cities are doing to deal with these sensors. The article is about three weeks old now.
https://cal.streetsblog.org/2020/04/01/stop-touching-pedestrian-beg-buttons/ (https://cal.streetsblog.org/2020/04/01/stop-touching-pedestrian-beg-buttons/)
I just found an additional article from this week about some of the challenges being faced in Massachusetts related to deactivating the BEG buttons, this includes education for pedestrians at the interestection and accessibility issues for visually-impaired pedestrians who need an audible signal. It seems we're at the beginning of an interesting conversation regarding BEG buttons, accessibility, and the relationship between pedestrians and automobiles
https://mass.streetsblog.org/2020/04/21/mixed-signals-beg-buttons-and-the-pandemic/ (https://mass.streetsblog.org/2020/04/21/mixed-signals-beg-buttons-and-the-pandemic/)
Hemming Park's intersections could be a model, though the "do I push the button or not thing" is a challenge, agreed.
Thankfully we shouldn't have as much of an issue with FDOT, as more and more of the urban core roads are not FDOT roads. We won't (nor should we) get rid of them all, but the city could do this with all of their roads
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2020, 03:29:45 PM
If that's the case, remove them entirely in the urban core (just activate the ped crossing every time, and retrofit all of the suburban crosswalks over a period of time.
all of the signals downtown have pre-timed phases which include peds - no beg buttons
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 24, 2020, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2020, 03:29:45 PM
If that's the case, remove them entirely in the urban core (just activate the ped crossing every time, and retrofit all of the suburban crosswalks over a period of time.
all of the signals downtown have pre-timed phases which include peds - no beg buttons
When I said Urban Core, I was referring to not just downtown but neighborhoods like Riverside, Springfield, etc.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 24, 2020, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2020, 03:29:45 PM
If that's the case, remove them entirely in the urban core (just activate the ped crossing every time, and retrofit all of the suburban crosswalks over a period of time.
all of the signals downtown have pre-timed phases which include peds - no beg buttons
No, they do not.
Quote from: JBTripper on April 22, 2020, 10:53:28 AM
There are sensors in the pavement that activate traffic signals for cars, and there are buttons that activate traffic signals for pedestrians. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2 different paradigms.
The light will automatically detect the car and change for it. The driver is obligated to do nothing.
For the pedestrian, the light will only change if the pedestrian does something. Why? There's always pedestrians around downtown. Why treat them differently?
Get rid of Bed Bugs...
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 26, 2020, 03:50:32 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 24, 2020, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2020, 03:29:45 PM
If that's the case, remove them entirely in the urban core (just activate the ped crossing every time, and retrofit all of the suburban crosswalks over a period of time.
all of the signals downtown have pre-timed phases which include peds - no beg buttons
No, they do not.
With the example of a handful around the bridge ramps, they absolutely do.
The other possible exception is the sports complex. Otherwise they all do.
I'm always amazed ( and slightly annoyed ) to the degree of confidence humans will speak of things they do not know.
Downtown is full of traffic lights that do not have a pedestrian walk cycle unless the beg button is pressed. This has been the case for years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years.
This means as pedestrians are walking and have a green light, they have a do not walk sign. They do not know how long they have left to cross. It forces them to do one of 2 things :
a) Keep walking and hope they make it across before cross traffic gets a green.
b) Stop, hit the beg button, and wait for the remainder of that cycle and the entire cross traffic to cycle to walk.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 27, 2020, 08:24:52 AM
I'm always amazed ( and slightly annoyed ) to the degree of confidence humans will speak of things they do not know.
Downtown is full of traffic lights that do not have a pedestrian walk cycle unless the beg button is pressed. This has been the case for years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years.
This means as pedestrians are walking and have a green light, they have a do not walk sign. They do not know how long they have left to cross. It forces them to do one of 2 things :
a) Keep walking and hope they make it across before cross traffic gets a green.
b) Stop, hit the beg button, and wait for the remainder of that cycle and the entire cross traffic to cycle to walk.
Aside from the base of the bridges and the sports complex area, please name one.
Hemming Park doesn't count. The buttons are there for ADA accessibility, but the pedestrian signal is activated automatically every time.
I love how pompous people get about these kinda things, too. There's swaths of blocks of residential areas in Jacksonville which don't have ANY sidewalk, yet people are saying the city SHOULD remove... the pedestrian crosswalk buttons? In favor of a more expensive solution? Based on absolutely zero evidence of its effectiveness in combating the spread of a novel virus? In a city with relatively minimal pedestrian traffic? Where pedestrian disobey the pedestrian signals frequently?
Many many things are far higher up on the priority list than THIS
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 27, 2020, 08:24:52 AM
I'm always amazed ( and slightly annoyed ) to the degree of confidence humans will speak of things they do not know.
yes....this downtown resident and transportation planner does not know of what he speaks.
Trust me - there are automatic pedestrian recall signals corresponding with the auto phases on just about every signal in the downtown core. Now, you would be correct that most do not have ped countdown heads. In fact, the downtown area is behind other parts of town in implementing these.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on April 27, 2020, 01:49:04 PM
I love how pompous people get about these kinda things, too. There's swaths of blocks of residential areas in Jacksonville which don't have ANY sidewalk, yet people are saying the city SHOULD remove... the pedestrian crosswalk buttons? In favor of a more expensive solution? Based on absolutely zero evidence of its effectiveness in combating the spread of a novel virus? In a city with relatively minimal pedestrian traffic? Where pedestrian disobey the pedestrian signals frequently?
Many many things are far higher up on the priority list than THIS
Oh boy! Not taking sides here (maybe a little) but can't resist answering your challenge by listing higher priorities in Jax: tearing down the Landing ($20 mil +/-), tearing down City Hall & Courthouse (a few million more), tearing down the Hart Bridge Ramps ($35 to 50 million), building Lot J out ($233 million), building a questionable innovation corridor with automated vehicles ($50 million +/-), deepening the port with questionable economic benefits and environmental impacts ($700 million +), manipulating the sale of JEA ($10 million +/- and counting), singling out developers and contractors with a waiver of building and other fees ($9 million)... A city with one of the highest pedestrian death rates, low walk-ability ratings and crumbling schools, not so much 8).
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 27, 2020, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on April 27, 2020, 01:49:04 PM
I love how pompous people get about these kinda things, too. There's swaths of blocks of residential areas in Jacksonville which don't have ANY sidewalk, yet people are saying the city SHOULD remove... the pedestrian crosswalk buttons? In favor of a more expensive solution? Based on absolutely zero evidence of its effectiveness in combating the spread of a novel virus? In a city with relatively minimal pedestrian traffic? Where pedestrian disobey the pedestrian signals frequently?
Many many things are far higher up on the priority list than THIS
Oh boy! Not taking sides here (maybe a little) but can't resist answering your challenge by listing higher priorities in Jax: tearing down the Landing ($20 mil +/-), tearing down City Hall & Courthouse (a few million more), tearing down the Hart Bridge Ramps ($35 to 50 million), building Lot J out ($233 million), building a questionable innovation corridor with automated vehicles ($50 million +/-), deepening the port with questionable economic benefits and environmental impacts ($700 million +), manipulating the sale of JEA ($10 million +/- and counting), singling out developers and contractors with a waiver of building and other fees ($9 million)... A city with one of the highest pedestrian death rates, low walk-ability ratings and crumbling schools, not so much 8).
You wrote a whole lot of words to say nothing about my post. I'm saying the beg buttons are a silly ask when we don't even have sidewalks in a lot of areas, you've shifted the conversation...to...say...that Jacksonville has spent money on other projects?
You haven't refuted my point at all, you've just bellyached about the project funding you don't like in Jax, just like almost every. other. poster. on. this. forum.
I know from many years of experience at the BK/FNF/FIS crossing if you hit the button to cross Riverside the timer will give you 25+ seconds. But if the light changes just for the traffic, it will only be 12-15 seconds at the most. They did add audio and visual alerts for pedestrians, but again it takes someone hitting the button to initiate that cycle.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on April 28, 2020, 07:36:44 AM
You wrote a whole lot of words to say nothing about my post. I'm saying the beg buttons are a silly ask when we don't even have sidewalks in a lot of areas, you've shifted the conversation...to...say...that Jacksonville has spent money on other projects?
You haven't refuted my point at all, you've just bellyached about the project funding you don't like in Jax, just like almost every. other. poster. on. this. forum.
Well, for some reason, you missed my entire point of responding to your point about priorities for Jacksonville. Let me connect the dots for you.
Your point appears to be that we should be spending taxpayer dollars on more important things than pedestrian crosswalk technologies, implying such dollars are not readily available.
In response, I have given examples of our City repeatedly spending hundreds of millions of taxpayer's dollars on projects benefiting only special interests, of questionable value and/or unrealistically chasing pots of gold at ends of rainbows rather than spending dollars on real world projects that effect thousands of citizens' quality of life on a daily basis, such as the subject at hand.
To add, I am also suggesting that's why we have "swaths of blocks of residential areas in Jacksonville which don't have ANY sidewalk.. " as you noted. And, that lack of sidewalks you reference may also be why we have "relatively minimum pedestrian traffic."
I was talking about sidewalks. I was arguing that building sidewalks is more important than "upgrading" functional pedestrian crossings. Never said anything about funding, just the overall priority of sidewalk facility improvements.
The talk about Jax wasting money on the projects you listed is trite, and it's getting really old to see people constantly referring back to them offering nothing new to the conversation in threads which were not about big development projects.
^I was referring to having both sidewalks and advanced technology for pedestrian crossings, not one at the exclusion of the other. To support that, I pointed out there is potentially plenty of resources available, with specific examples for those wondering how, if the City changed its "priorities."
Your original statement, "Many many things are far higher up on the priority list than THIS" opened the door to a response addressing any and all possibilities (i.e. those "many many things").
And, sorry, I don't think siphoning off hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars year after year on questionable projects is ever trite and I find nothing wrong with holding our elected officials accountable for same. Those diversions impact the lack of funding for many of the items discussed on these discussion boards so its appropriate to point them out in similar discussions about what to fund and what isn't being funded.
The pedestrian focus for sidewalks should be in areas with high pedestrian traffic and that need them.
Most residential doesn't need sidewalks. Traffic is sparse and the roads are wide.