https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/03/12/as-plans-advance-for-ford-on-bay-boyer-envisions.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline
QuoteDuring [KBJ Architects President Thomas] Rensing's appearance at the February board meeting, board member Moody suggested a convention center could work in the Shipyards, somewhere between Spandrel's development and the Lot J development.
Rensing disagrees. Moving towards the stadium would mean the convention center wouldn't be in walking distance to the Hyatt, the closest hotel — and it would make the convention center neighbor a jail, police station and the Maxwell House manufacturing facility.
The Hyatt also wants to be a part of a convention center, Rensing said. The Hyatt's owners were part of Jacobs' team when the group pitched in 2018.
And what the Hyatt wants is important not only for a convention center, but also for the Ford on Bay. If the Hyatt doesn't release its right to purchase the land, Spandrel can only develop one parcel, and a city parcel with a market value of $8.5 million could remain a patch of grass.
Even so, what the Hyatt wants is not the only consideration for where a convention center should go, Boyer said.
"Clearly it's the best site for the Hyatt, but is it the best site for the city?" Boyer said.
But she thinks there may be another way to make the Hyatt happy, a way that better serves the city's interests: Instead of building from the Hyatt towards the stadium, build from the Hyatt towards the former site of the Jacksonville Landing, which will soon be bid out for development.
Boyer imagined a convention center engulfing the Hyatt, the Hyatt's parking garage and the Landing's parking lot, heading west along the river instead of north into downtown. If the Main Street bridge ramp running over the parking lot were removed, that would dedicate almost 7 acres to a convention center.
Removing the submerged acres from Jacobs' convention center cite, the space is almost equivalent. Spandrel is also willing to build exhibition space in its second phase, the parcel on which the Hyatt has its right of refusal, Boyer said.
Boyer's exploration of a convention center between the Hyatt and the Landing has not yet gone beyond a theoretical exercise.
She has not formalized any such convention center plan or land banking action to take to the DIA board. For now, it's just an idea.
Meanwhile, the board will vote in its March 18 meeting on Boyer's recommendation to reject KBJ's bid, while the City Council waits to sign off on Spandrel's plan for the property.
As for the convention center, Rensing's vision for the site may never exist beyond virtual reality — but Boyer said she believes Jacksonville's convention center aspiration remains alive ... although the time is not now, she said, and the place is not the Ford on Bay.
Having been down the "Convention Center" discussion in other cities over the past 10 years, the best place for a convention center in Jax is in the parking lot of the current convention center. If this is built in the heart of downtown it will set Jax even further behind, but it will never come to that because the cost to do so is going to be so expensive (or it will be so ugly) it will never see the light of day.
Let Spandrel build the exhibition hall as a part of Ford on Bay and call it a day for the foreseeable future. Let's stop making this more expensive, difficult and time consuming than it has to be. Haven't we missed enough economic cycles already?
The idea makes a lot of sense and mirrors something I posted about a year and a half ago in this thread.
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35225.msg487529.html#msg487529
"I'll throw a thought out there. Why doesn't the City partner with Hyatt to expand the existing tiered meeting space building to meet the City's convention center needs? This building would be rendered obsolete by a new convention center, so Hyatt should have a desire to play ball. The City could even consider funding a portion of the expansion with sales of the courthouse and city hall properties, AND hopefully get those properties back on the tax rolls in the future. I would also imagine that Hyatt would love to freshen up the exterior of the architectural atrocity that is the main hotel tower (particularly with new competition coming downtown), so it may be a good time to re-imagine the exterior of the hotel tower and tiered building.
To me it makes no sense to waste valuable real estate when there is a potential opportunity to go vertical a few blocks away. Virtually every real estate development project I work in compact/dense areas, seeks to go as vertical as possible, so as to preserve as much land for future development opportunities."
You can go verticle in meeting room space but exhibit space is a whole other issue. They need tons of column free space that can support a tremendous amount of weight, have 25' to 35' ceilings, and staging/loading docks for 15 to 20 semis. None of that gets accomplished downtown.
Quote from: Kerry on March 12, 2020, 11:34:16 AM
You can go verticle in meeting room space but exhibit space is a whole other issue. They need tons of column free space that can support a tremendous amount of weight, have 25' to 35' ceilings, and staging/loading docks for 15 to 20 semis. None of that gets accomplished downtown.
It can get accomplished downtown if people would earn their paychecks and put their minds to it; nothing is impossible, and the word "no" or "can't" should ever be in anyone's vocabulary.
You can get you a good +100k square feet of exhibition space attached to the second level of the Hyatt. That gives you an entire ground level for commercial, support, cultural uses, etc. That, combined with the Hyatt's ballroom and meeting spaces gives you a complex much larger than the Prime Osborn for a fraction of the costs of building completely new and without the isolation of LaVilla.
I'm content to mostly sit back and watch this whole idea fall apart until the people in charge educate themselves and see how unrealistic it is to build in the heart of downtown and then come to their senses. If Jax ever does get a new convention center I can tell you right now exactly where it will be located - in the parking lot of the Prime Osborne.
For a whole list of reasons the Prime location is the only make logistical, aesthetics, and economic sense. For example, we just spent how many millions building a multimodal transit facility so wouldn't it make sense to construct public facilities as close as possible to it? You know - clustering and all that good stuff.
The Prime Osborn's problems are no hotel rooms, no restaurants, no shops, no entertainment and a slim chance of any of that ever happening within the next 20 years. All it does is help tie up a train station from being a train station, while sending home grown conventions and tradeshows to other communities like Daytona, that offer guests something to do.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 12, 2020, 12:52:09 PM
The Prime Osborn's problems are no hotel rooms, no restaurants, no shops, no entertainment and a slim chance of any of that ever happening within the next 20 years. All it does is help tie up a train station from being a train station, while sending home grown conventions and tradeshows to other communities like Daytona, that offer guests something to do.
Hotels will build where ever the convention center is. Building in the PO parking lot will allow the PO to become a train station again (if VT ever decides to come to Jax).
The longer the City fools around with unrealistic ideas the longer it will take to actually build something. We are wasting valuable time.
Quote from: Kerry on March 12, 2020, 01:13:30 PM
Hotels will build where ever the convention center is.
That's definitely been the case so far. I love all the hotels around the Prime Osborn. The nightlife is GREAT!!
Quote from: Kerry on March 12, 2020, 12:11:57 PM
I'm content to mostly sit back and watch this whole idea fall apart until the people in charge educate themselves and see how unrealistic it is to build in the heart of downtown and then come to their senses. If Jax ever does get a new convention center I can tell you right now exactly where it will be located - in the parking lot of the Prime Osborne.
For a whole list of reasons the Prime location is the only make logistical, aesthetics, and economic sense. For example, we just spent how many millions building a multimodal transit facility so wouldn't it make sense to construct public facilities as close as possible to it? You know - clustering and all that good stuff.
What you just said, and explained, makes a lot of sense to me; but obviously it doesn't make sense to Boyer and City Leaders. This is what I mean by earning their paychecks. They may have a degree (I have one but I don't know it all), and some background and experience, but it just seems that no one in Jax possesses the intelligence and wisdom to really sit back and listen, and think things through, and listen to others that may help them improve their ideas or give them better ideas to help and assist them in making plausible, right, correct, sensible, and sound/profitable decisions for the City of Jax and the area as a whole.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 12, 2020, 01:19:55 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 12, 2020, 01:13:30 PM
Hotels will build where ever the convention center is.
That's definitely been the case so far. I love all the hotels around the Prime Osborn. The nightlife is GREAT!!
LOLOLOL...Captain you're killing me!
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 12, 2020, 01:19:55 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 12, 2020, 01:13:30 PM
Hotels will build where ever the convention center is.
That's definitely been the case so far. I love all the hotels around the Prime Osborn. The nightlife is GREAT!!
The Prime Osborne isn't in a position to compete for conventions that require many room-nights. It's old, undersized, and lacks modern amenities. I assume a new center would at least make an attempt to host regional or national conventions which would require room-nights. If not, then just keep Prime.
That would be one of the primary points of adding on to the Hyatt. It is Jax's convention center hotel that it provided millions in subsidies for two decades ago. Adding to it, builds off previous public investment and places guests in an area where shops, restaurants, bars and attractions can be within logical walking distance. By reducing convention center costs, you free up money to spend on other needs.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 12, 2020, 01:48:53 PM
That would be one of the primary points of adding on to the Hyatt. It is Jax's convention center hotel that it provided millions in subsidies for two decades ago. Adding to it, builds off previous public investment and places guests in an area where shops, restaurants, bars and attractions can be within logical walking distance. By reducing convention center costs, you free up money to spend on other needs.
It would be cheaper to build a new convention center AND a smaller convention hotel at the PO parking lot than it would to build exhibit halls in the heart of downtown. A 1000 room hotel was so over-sized for Jax whomever came up with that should be kicked in the nuts. A Jax convention hotel would require about 350 to 400 rooms - and probably closer to the 350 side.
Jax should target either a large Tier IV or a small Tier III center. We can't compete with South Florida, Tampa, Orlando, Disney, Savannah, Charleston, or Atlanta - but we could do well against Mobile and Daytona.
No it would not. Where the exhibition hall would go is already dirt. Plus, how would a new convention center, which would include an exhibition hall, be cheaper? That doesn't make much sense on the surface.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 12, 2020, 03:16:48 PM
No it would not. Where the exhibition hall would go is already dirt. Plus, how would a new convention center, which would include an exhibition hall, be cheaper? That doesn't make much sense on the surface.
Once the City finds out how much it cost and how logistically challenging it is to function there the idea will die on the vine. For example, where exactly would you stage 10 semis near the courthouse location, let alone unload them? Which side of a downtown center do you want the loading docks and dumpsters on? What if it turns out a Jax convention center is a huge success, where do you expand to?
Haha, leave it to Kerry to invent new ways to be wrong.
Designing a box on box shaped site doesn't have to be rocket science. The loading docks are already on Market. Expand them. If they put in a grocery, it would need the same. Also not worried about expanding 30 years from now. An exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt is a real solution that can be implemented now and on the cheap. Make a vibrant downtown first and we'll deal with the bigger box during our grandkid's generation at the shipyards or Daniels Building site.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 12, 2020, 05:47:44 PM
Haha, leave it to Kerry to invent new ways to be wrong.
We'll see.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 12, 2020, 05:53:59 PM
Designing a box on box shaped site doesn't have to be rocket science. The loading docks are already on Market. Expand them. If they put in a grocery, it would need the same. Also not worried about expanding 30 years from now. An exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt is a real solution that can be implemented now and on the cheap. Make a vibrant downtown first and we'll deal with the bigger box during our grandkid's generation at the shipyards or Daniels Building site.
Feels like they're thinking in the right direction but going overboard with stuff that could be prohibitively expensive or difficult. If the space is there on the city hall annex space that feels like the easier solution.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 12, 2020, 06:29:24 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 12, 2020, 05:53:59 PM
Designing a box on box shaped site doesn't have to be rocket science. The loading docks are already on Market. Expand them. If they put in a grocery, it would need the same. Also not worried about expanding 30 years from now. An exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt is a real solution that can be implemented now and on the cheap. Make a vibrant downtown first and we'll deal with the bigger box during our grandkid's generation at the shipyards or Daniels Building site.
Feels like they're thinking in the right direction but going overboard with stuff that could be prohibitively expensive or difficult. If the space is there on the city hall annex space that feels like the easier solution.
"It's easier here!"
Quote from: Tacachale on March 12, 2020, 06:29:24 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 12, 2020, 05:53:59 PM
Designing a box on box shaped site doesn't have to be rocket science. The loading docks are already on Market. Expand them. If they put in a grocery, it would need the same. Also not worried about expanding 30 years from now. An exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt is a real solution that can be implemented now and on the cheap. Make a vibrant downtown first and we'll deal with the bigger box during our grandkid's generation at the shipyards or Daniels Building site.
Feels like they're thinking in the right direction but going overboard with stuff that could be prohibitively expensive or difficult. If the space is there on the city hall annex space that feels like the easier solution.
I get the gist that they are debating the merits of a 100% new and supersized convention center complex and not necessarily viewing the addition to the Hyatt, combined with the Hyatt's existing meeting facilities as also being a convention center. It reminds me of the JTA Brooklyn Skyway thing. For some reason we never consider no-frills solutions from the start. Instead, we come up with things we'll never have the money to pay for, ultimately doing nothing and missing economic cycles in the process.
As for this site, here is the old civil council sketch from the Alvin Brown days:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Nx3ThBs/0/L/i-Nx3ThBs-L.jpg)
Here's how it would look with the hotel and surrounding area:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-WwDWvTt/0/XL/i-WwDWvTt-XL.jpg)
^That's seemingly easy to pull off site design wise. I also think the idea Boyer is supporting on the combined Landing Parking lot/Hyatt parking garage site is potentially feasible as well. If attempting to build an exhibit hall into or on top of the existing garage, you could bring trucks up Newnan, convert Coastline Drive to one way heading west and loop them around back towards Independent Drive. It would likely require eliminating the Independent Drive off ramp from Main Street and ramping up and down to the loading zone. Or you could even just close the ramp to all traffic (except delivery trucks) and take the trucks directly to the loading zone from there. This route would also preserve the Landing surface lot for future development, though it's a bit constrained.
Or you can build the exhibit hall directly on top of the Landing surface lot, make the loading zone between existing garage and new building (with walkover above) and pretty much take the same route just mentioned above. You simply have to eliminate the Independent Drive off ramp, so trucks can get directly out.
I'm sure a good design team could put together multiple design solutions, rather than taking the path of least resistance (no shot at you Tacachale). Having the exhibit hall/conference center at the Hyatt Garage or Landing Parking Lot site would give Jax an advantage that not all peers have, and that is water front views from the convention center. That is something you wouldn't get at PO site or the old city hall. It would also create an opportunity for more street level activity on the old City hall site and the potential for a true entertainment district.
Just build a box? Are you wanting any street/sidewalk interaction with this box?
This seems like a good time to post this Ted Talk about this very subject.
https://youtu.be/Q1ZeXnmDZMQ
I actually think working with Spandrel in the short term and Boyer's thoughts in the longer term COULD work. If you combined the Hyatt Garage and the Spandrel site, you'd like get close to 300k SqFt of space, though not contiguous. But, you'd have a "north" center at 100k then a west center at almost 200k. The advantage here is you could do the Spandrel Partnership now, and if you wanted to, leave the landing parking lot as parking and future expansion.
Long Term, if this thing takes off, you could also expand and combine on the block to the north. This wouldn't be cheap as there's a JEA facility there, and there are two historic buildings there. But, if we're really in the position where we are bursting at the seams with 300k of Exhibit space, then that's a good issue to have.
Quote from: Kerry on March 13, 2020, 08:19:15 AM
Just build a box? Are you wanting any street/sidewalk interaction with this box?
This seems like a good time to post this Ted Talk about this very subject.
https://youtu.be/Q1ZeXnmDZMQ
I get the impression you're not fully reading other's comments or reading the articles and links attached to this particular subject. The discussion has been about a mixed use project since at least the mid 2000s. The Hyatt's meeting space isn't on ground level. So the same way it currently has ground level restaurants, lobby, etc. below (or above) its meeting floor, could also be carried out with an expansion.
And I think you are seriously underestimating the cost to do that. And surely you do think the Hyatt has curb appeal.
Whatever the costs, it's cheaper than building something twice the size from scratch and then attempting to build or subsidize everything else needed to surround it. Speaking from the experience of being involved in hosting a state conference for roughly 800 people in DT Jax, Hyatt already has more curb appeal than the Prime Osborn. It is more centrally located, has hotel rooms, dining, a much larger grand ballroom and is on the river. However, it doesn't have the exhibition space for larger events. If Spandrel is saying they'll partner on a mixed use expansion, it's definitely worth considering because the clustering resolves several issues negatively impacting the Northbank, sooner rather than later.
Well obviously I'm not going to convince you, or probably anyone else for that matter, so I'll just wait until this latest idea goes nowhere.
Yeah I won't be convinced that a train station in LaVilla is the most viable convention center solution. That idea was implemented in 1985. Other than saving the building from demolition, it didn't stimulate any type of complementary development around it.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 13, 2020, 02:48:54 PM
Yeah I won't be convinced that a train station in LaVilla is the most viable convention center solution. That idea was implemented in 1985. Other than saving the building from demolition, it didn't stimulate any type of complementary development around it.
This isn't 1985 either. In 1985 the US Savings and Loan crisis was just getting underway and the resulting rise in interest rates killed most development until 1991. By then, the opportunity for Jax to capitalize on the Prime Osborne had vanished and by the mid'90s a whole new generation of convention centers had been launched (kicking off the convention center war). However, and maybe more to your point, convention centers are NOT development drivers. That is why the vast majority of cities do not locate them heart of their downtowns, but are usually on the periphery bounded on multiple sides by railroad tracks and interstate freeways. It is also why adjacent hotel development requires substantial subsidies - as much as 50%.
^Now apply everything you just said to Jax from a site specific and historic context.
Quote from: Kerry on March 13, 2020, 03:59:18 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 13, 2020, 02:48:54 PM
Yeah I won't be convinced that a train station in LaVilla is the most viable convention center solution. That idea was implemented in 1985. Other than saving the building from demolition, it didn't stimulate any type of complementary development around it.
This isn't 1985 either. In 1985 the US Savings and Loan crisis was just getting underway and the resulting rise in interest rates killed most development until 1991.
Daytona's Ocean Center opened in 1985. Tampa's opened in 1990. Both have had a different outcome. What does the US Savings and Loan crisis have to do with the Prime Osborn that it didn't have to do with the Ocean Center?
QuoteBy then, the opportunity for Jax to capitalize on the Prime Osborne had vanished and by the mid'90s a whole new generation of convention centers had been launched (kicking off the convention center war).
Just wondering why the Prime Osborn and not the other examples mentioned?
QuoteHowever, and maybe more to your point, convention centers are NOT development drivers.
There is no single use that 100% drives urban development. History has proven, clustering as many complementing uses together within a compact pedestrian scale setting is how you build revitalization momentum in an urban setting. Convention centers are nothing more than a tool that can be added within a compact setting to help stimulate activity and support adjacent businesses and hotels. The Ocean Center in Daytona Beach and Tampa's convention center are two good nearby examples.
QuoteThat is why the vast majority of cities do not locate them heart of their downtowns, but are usually on the periphery bounded on multiple sides by railroad tracks and interstate freeways.
Depends on the context and size of the center. We're not talking about a large center with a million square feet of exhibition space like Orlando-Orange County, Chicago or Vegas. This is Jax we're talking about. The exhibition hall we have now at the Prime Osborn is only 78,500 square feet. Huntsville, AL has larger facilities. Nevertheless, the Hyatt and former City Hall Annex site is on the historic edge of downtown, not that it matters much. The Hart Bridge ramps end a block north and before the 1960s, the site was full of warehouses, wharfs and railroad tracks.
As for Daytona, the Ocean Center is dead slap in the middle of it's tourism epicenter. Expanded and remodelded a decade ago, it has a 93,000 square foot exhibition hall and is adacent to the Hyatt's Adams Mark counterpart, the 742-room Hilton Daytona Beach.
QuoteIt is also why adjacent hotel development requires substantial subsidies - as much as 50%.
The Hyatt, our convention center hotel, was heavily subsidized. IMO, it doesn't make sense to subsidize another. This isn't Chicago. It's Jax.
The Ocean Center was renovated in 2009 at a cost of almost $85 million. Another $3 million was spent on the grand entrance, and a $15 million upgrade started late last year.
The Tampa Convention Center didn't hit its stride until the Marriott Waterside was built across the street around 2002.
How much has Jax spent on the PO since it opened?
You'll have to look up the cost of the Prime Osborn. I'm not sure where that will take you, other than using it as a baseline of how expensive it will get to upgrade it and subsidize the creation of hotels, restaurants, shops, attractions, etc. immediately around (at the expense of every existing business already present in the DT core) it to make it competive with more centralized centers of similar size.
However, the Ocean Center example further proves my point. Before the 2009 expansion, the Ocean Center was only 60,000 square feet of exhibit space with 18 breakout rooms. Now it's the 5th largest convention center in Florida with 93,028 square feet of exhibition space, a 14,000 square foot ballroom, a 42,146 square feet arena, and 32 breakout meeting rooms equaling 32,000 square feet. It has a total of 205,000 square feet.
$85 million, 100% publicly funded (we have a mixed-use P3 opportunity) is a lot cheaper than the $1.2 billion proposal for a completely new convention center that was rejected last year. The Hyatt already has a total of 116,000 square feet of meeting space. That includes a 28,000 square foot grand ballroom and 41 meeting rooms overlooking the river. The majority of what the Ocean Center added on isn't needed at the Hyatt because it already has more meeting rooms and a larger grand ballroom. The Hyatt also already has a larger ballroom and more meeting rooms than the Prime Osborn. What it doesn't have is an exhibition hall. Put an exhibition hall there, close the Prime Osborn and turn the Jacksonville Terminal into something else.
By comparison, the Barnett and Laura Street Trio were underestimated to cost $90 million, Spandrel's original proposal was estimated to cost $136 million, and First Baptist wants to do a welcome center and renovate for $30 million. If Jax can resolve its convention center issue for a few decades for under $100 million that's seriously worth exploring.
Quote from: Kerry on March 13, 2020, 11:35:09 PM
The Tampa Convention Center didn't hit its stride until the Marriott Waterside was built across the street around 2002.
Perhaps that's the DT Jax/Hyatt story, just in reverse since we already have nearly 1,000 hotel rooms and more on the way nearby. The Hyatt not hitting its stride until an exhibition hall, allowing it to host larger conventions, is built next to it.
Jax is NOT going to be able to build any convention center that will attract national conventions for under $100 million. There are far too many better options out there. A convention center to compete with Daytona and Mobile will run about $200 million. Anything more than that and we are throwing money away. We'll probably need to kick in another $40 million for a 350 room adjacent convention hotel.
Jax should worry about keeping local, regional and existing conventions. A larger exhibition hall will compete with Daytona. No need to kick in more money for hotels before taking advantage of what we're already subsidizing.
Can you hear that, guys? Five months and a complete lack of progress?