Fantastic news.
Will use it on the reg.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jta-applies-for-brooklyn-skyway-station-building-permit
800k!? So after all of the talk of needing $16M they can do it for $800k!?
Of course, just do it.
Fantastic news indeed. This doesn't seem to jive with their "proposed" alterations to accommodate the U2C, which gives me hope thath the U2C BS is not really something they're baking on converting the skyway for.
I'm SO glad we're expanding the current system and current tech, bringing it to that part of town will make getting downtown a little nicer and a lot cooler (air conditioning!) if you're coming from Riverside/Brooklyn
This is great! So much food just got put within walking distance of my office.
A-freaking Man! Glad to see a no-frills thing many of been pushing for years in this discussion board finally getting implemented.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 09, 2020, 12:41:04 PM
This is great! So much food just got put within walking distance of my office.
Ditto!
It can be pretty hard to park in Brooklyn even when I take my car, so it'll be fantastic to be able to jump the Skyway into the area mid-day for lunch in Brooklyn.
It'll also connect both the CBD and the Southbank to an actual, quality grocer in Fresh Market, which is a huge win.
Bring the bike/scooter share to Brooklyn/Five Points and the low-speed clown cars further into the Riverside/Avondale neighborhoods where they actually make the most sense and you've got a great first-mile/last-mile solution to feed the existing fixed Skyway.
The AVs should be tested between Brooklyn/LaVilla and Five Points via Park Street before spending millions on Bay Street. That can be done by dedicating two of the existing four lanes to them. The biggest stumbling block (assuming COJ would be on board) will be getting them through existing signalized intersections and FDOT buy-in at Forest and I-95. By linking with Five Points, you provide a logical temporary extension to a popular destination outside of downtown. How it performs will tell you all you need to know on if it makes sense to spend millions ripping up Skyway beams or running to TIAA Bank Field. This is the next no-frills options, I've mentioned in the past that I'd wish JTA pursue.
Is the reporter from around here? This does not make sense.
Quote
Brooklyn Station will connect to adjacent Skyway staging tracks that JTA plans to convert to support passenger transit. The project will link the Central Skyway Station at West Bay and Lee streets in LaVilla to the Downtown Northbank neighborhood.
Central Station is not at Bay and Lee Streets, nor is it in LaVilla.
The article says the new station will use the existing tech, and then be converted to the U2C
Quote
The Brooklyn extension eventually will be adapted to support autonomous vehicles in phase II of JTA's proposed Ultimate Urban Circulator program.
Lake, I think testing the U2C along Park Street is a good idea. But, I don't understand your concern
Quote
The biggest stumbling block (assuming COJ would be on board) will be getting them through existing signalized intersections and FDOT buy-in at Forest and I-95
Since going down Park wouldn't go through the Forest/I-95 interchange. Unless you mean two locations FDOT might have concerns about - Park at Forest and Park at I-95? But, neither Forest nor Park are FDOT roads. FDOT would have to sign off on going through the I-95 interchange along Park.
Yes, I'd suspect FDOT would have concerns at both locations near I-95 interchanges and if it barked enough, local politicians and JTA would listen.
Absolutely excellent!
If only JTA would cut the crap with this U2C mess and just get normal people movers.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 09, 2020, 09:20:05 PM
Absolutely excellent!
If only JTA would cut the crap with this U2C mess and just get normal people movers.
Bright side is that we've realistically got 5-10 years of normal Skyway useage before JTA even figures out how to make the U2C work.
Even brighter side is that if the cost of the JRTC to Jefferson test track ($32 million) is indicative of what it's going to cost to convert the entire system to U2C, we could be looking at even longer before the JTA can find a way to fund such an expensive project.
Hopefully the Brooklyn extension is successful, cooler heads prevail in the next decade, and we continue to find creative ways to apply enough duct tape to the existing system to keep it online in the interim.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 09, 2020, 12:30:19 PM
Fantastic news indeed. This doesn't seem to jive with their "proposed" alterations to accommodate the U2C, which gives me hope thath the U2C BS is not really something they're baking on converting the skyway for.
I'm SO glad we're expanding the current system and current tech, bringing it to that part of town will make getting downtown a little nicer and a lot cooler (air conditioning!) if you're coming from Riverside/Brooklyn
Technically, that is downtown. ;-)
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 09, 2020, 10:58:19 PM
Hopefully the Brooklyn extension is successful, cooler heads prevail in the next decade, and we continue to find creative ways to apply enough duct tape to the existing system to keep it online in the interim.
You're more optimistic on this one than myself. A couple years ago, JTA announced the fleet maybe had 5 years left of us. It shows day to day with cars constantly having broken AC, parts literally zip-tied together, break downs leaving lines blocked and passengers stranded, et al.
Now we need the skyway to go down Phillips highway down to JTB
Quote from: JaGoaT on March 10, 2020, 08:12:30 PM
Now we need the skyway to go down Phillips highway down to JTB
You're asking for light rail, not an automated people mover.
Any updates on this construction, two months later? The original articles quoted July for opening...
Putting together a construction update soon. I haven't seen any work on this yet but I'll verify over the weekend.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 06, 2020, 03:42:21 PM
Any updates on this construction, two months later? The original articles quoted July for opening...
Construction and July opening was contingent on JTA receiving about $750k in federal funding through a State of Good Repair grant that they applied for.
If JTA received the grant, it hasn't been announced publicly.
Cool thanks for the replies guys!
For what it's worth, it looked like they were testing trains near between Brooklyn and downtown today. Didn't look like they were going in for repair, but rather in and out. Could be something, could be nothing. Can't wait for that extension.
I'd venture they have some requirements for testing certain things. There's probably some tests that they can perform as part of their operations. That is to say, their normal operations confirm XYZ is properly functioning every month or quarter or whatever the requirement.
Since they're not running, they probably need to perform these tests to meet these regulations. Not entirely sure. Just a guess.
Lake, I wanted to get your thoughts on an idea I had...
Since budget is too tight to extend the skyway, what are your thoughts on demoing the east half of Rosa Parks station (just the bus terminals and lot). Then donating the land to FSCJ with tax incentive to build mixed use midrise that included student housing? To the best of my knowledge the conversion across from 11E has been successful, and that location would be a great spot for someone looking to work downtown, part time, while going to school, without needing a vehicle.
A skybridge could also be built to connect the station to the other side of State Street further connecting the 3 structures. This would essentially give the skyway an additional hub without huge cost via public/private partnership.
My biggest concern would be the proximity of the City Rescue Mission... Not sure how difficult it would be to convince them to move closer to the Clara White Mission if some funding and land was thrown there way. That building is pretty nice and in good proximity to FSCJ too. I feel like with minimal funding it could also be converted to better use, if more incentives were used.
Do you think that sounds rational/remotely financially feasible?
Doesn't JTA plan to sell that land for a TOD?
Maybe a developer will pick up your idea and run with it.
^Yes, JTA plans to this to be TOD.
Oh I didn't realize there were already plans to sell. Well hopefully there's an investor looking to do something better than a surface parking lot...
Six months since the initial announcement now. Any updates?
I mean christ, if we can blow tens of millions on demolitions and grass fields, surely $800k to add an important leg to our urban circulator at a time when shutdowns aren't an issue can't be that big of a deal.
Nothing visible. This will be on my list to get an update on.
Just about two months since the last check in.
I see that the FRA (https://railroads.dot.gov/newsroom/press-releases/us-secretary-transportation-elaine-l-chao-announces-291-million-state-good) released "State of Good Repair Grants" at the end of last month. But I think these are only for larger rail services, and still nothing for Florida in that case.
I can't believe for a project as simple and affordable and beneficial as this, City Council or DIA or anyone else can't or won't grant this money. $800k to expand the Skyway into one of the fastest growing parts of Downtown should be a no-brainer. Is it just that no one at JTA has bothered to ask? Or no one on Council has heard of this? Like, what obstacle could there be to something this small?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 13, 2020, 02:18:59 AM
Just about two months since the last check in.
I see that the FRA (https://railroads.dot.gov/newsroom/press-releases/us-secretary-transportation-elaine-l-chao-announces-291-million-state-good) released "State of Good Repair Grants" at the end of last month. But I think these are only for larger rail services, and still nothing for Florida in that case.
I can't believe for a project as simple and affordable and beneficial as this, City Council or DIA or anyone else can't or won't grant this money. $800k to expand the Skyway into one of the fastest growing parts of Downtown should be a no-brainer. Is it just that no one at JTA has bothered to ask? Or no one on Council has heard of this? Like, what obstacle could there be to something this small?
It's baffling.
I'd use the extension multiple times a week to jump from Hemming into Brooklyn for lunch.
This should be an absolute no brainer.
Evidently those in charge don't see it as a significant enough improvement to make the investment to happen faster. If it were me, this thing would have been done a decade ago. But Amtrak would also be back downtown by now and LaVilla would be its own historic district. My guess is that the decision makers rarely use the Skyway or mass transit in general. They'd rather go to Four Seasons instead. ;D
Is this the type of thing where we just need to bother enough council members to write a bill or something? I mean what can be done about this?
It's the type of thing that if it were a high priority among just about any person in decision making position and influence, it could happen. In Lakeland, it was their Downtown Development Authority director that led the effort to get passenger rail back to their downtown 20 years ago.
Decided to just ask David Cawton what was up on Twitter. He responded (https://twitter.com/Davidcawton/status/1327378940307132418) surprisingly quickly.
QuoteLike much of the best laid plans in 2020 - COVID-19 happened. With a 60-70% drop in ridership, significant loss of sales and gas tax revenues since March, we've had to focus on other more pressing matters.
This project is still very much in the works.
For that little of a sum, it seems like a bit of a non-answer. Especially knowing that the AV route on Bay Street seems to be moving hell or high water.
Another response: (https://twitter.com/davidcawton/status/1327381722363793408?s=21)
QuoteFor sure, and we would love to have it open right now. Its still very much in the works. I'll be the first one over to Burrito Gallery!
I'm not sure we were even ready to announce the project at the time tbh, but the Daily Record found a permit app and we had to respond.
COVID is a good excuse for a delay. What's the timeline now? Are we looking a months or years?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 13, 2020, 12:03:43 PM
Is this the type of thing where we just need to bother enough council members to write a bill or something? I mean what can be done about this?
My guess is there are more people concerned about other issues like drainage, sidewalks, potholes, crime, underfunded parks and garbage service every second of the day than the Skyway in 40 years. I don't see the politics pushing a council member to get too excited about this project especially given the boondoggle-to-date it has repeatedly proven to be. We have already met our quota for those this year: JEA, Lot J, RNC Convention, automated vehicles, disastrous public garage deals, etc. 8).
They don't have to get excited. They didn't seem particularly excited about spending over $20 million on the Landing buyout and demo. Something with about 4% of the cost shouldn't be this hard. Something this small and simple should be easy.
Speaking of automated vehicles, funny how this low-cost expansion is apparently just too hard, yet it's full-speed-ahead on U2C. And it's not like they aren't touching the existing system, I can see on JTA's procurement page that they're awarding plenty of contracts for new APUs, HVAC systems, and track components. I suppose adding a ramp and awning is bigger than that, but still, just, sigh.
I could hardly believe my eyes, "LIGHT RAIL" in Jacksonville. Sadly the writer appears not to know the difference $$$ between light rail, monorails or waste management trucks. For the record, what started as an APM or Automated People Mover was converted to monorail in the early 2000's.
JTA crying that they can't fix it is typical of BS they've been selling the unsuspecting public for decades. Monorails are highly customizable and are made by no less than a dozen companies around the globe. Anyone want odds that JTA never even inquired about new trains? I have spoken to several manufacturers and tend to get the same response, JTA who??
Brooklyn Station should have been built when the monorail conversion took place. Truthfully, be it monorail, Clown Carts or riding mowers towing little red wagons the system will remain fairly useless until it actually reaches the Sports District, San Marco and actually connects with FSCJ.
Wow, it's been some time Ock. Welcome back, hope you're doing well.
Like I said, it's incredibly suspect that David is insisting we can't afford this when we can apparently afford tossing millions into technology scheduled to go into production service while Tampa is still running tests.
I can't say I'm surprised that train builders haven't heard of us. It's almost certain that for some reason, there was a meeting in 2017 where some very important people agreed on autonomous vehicles and decided to not bother looking at anything else.
To be just a little fair, Brooklyn wasn't as far along in the mid-90s when they planned the expansion as it was by even the mid-2000s. For the longest time they've wanted to build tracks to a new, separate elevated station to the southeast of the maintenance facility, I assume in order to continue expanding later. This is a concession, but a worthwhile one to expand to what Brooklyn is today. And the U2C plan as it stands does include expansions to the Sports District, San Marco, and North through FSCJ. Most people don't seem to have any issue with the routes (save for the silly bridge idea), it's the vehicle technology and deciding to run them in mixed traffic, and the likelihood of them generating TOD.
Doesn't matter if the U2C connects into the stadium or not. On its most successful day, it would be a cluster. It won't have the capacity to move large game day crowds and if it did, it would clog the road for everyone with several little vehicles mixed in traffic running at a max speed of less than 15mph.
Thank you! I'm doing well and currently freezing my posterior off in Wauwatosa, WI.
The U2C is a door to first and last to door mile solution for riders of mass transit (the transit we don't have). The inteligencia should be able to add on their fingers the fact that 15mph, 12 passenger glorified golf carts are not going to impress Tibor Hollo, into plopping a 85 story Panorama Tower downtown anymore than it will convince Burger King to remodel 210 E State Street. I will predict a very modest success or usage along downtown streets, though we'd probably get more passenger miles by running them around Town Center. Then as they become old, worn and common, we'll gradually wake up to the millions $$$ flushed chasing A ridiculous shot-gun marriage of elevated rail and clown cart technology. Mass transit, speed, comfort, etc is simply not what they are designed for.
Don't lose faith in Jacksonville's ability to remain coal in a nation of diamonds, by the time we retire the U2c Hollywood will have produced yet another intergalactic block buster... "Ooh, we want one of those!"
Never mind, this should have been in the U2C discussion - and now it is.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 18, 2020, 01:10:22 PM
I could hardly believe my eyes, "LIGHT RAIL" in Jacksonville. Sadly the writer appears not to know the difference $$$ between light rail, monorails or waste management trucks. For the record, what started as an APM or Automated People Mover was converted to monorail in the early 2000's.
JTA crying that they can't fix it is typical of BS they've been selling the unsuspecting public for decades. Monorails are highly customizable and are made by no less than a dozen companies around the globe. Anyone want odds that JTA never even inquired about new trains? I have spoken to several manufacturers and tend to get the same response, JTA who??
Brooklyn Station should have been built when the monorail conversion took place. Truthfully, be it monorail, Clown Carts or riding mowers towing little red wagons the system will remain fairly useless until it actually reaches the Sports District, San Marco and actually connects with FSCJ.
I believe JTA is spending a dollar (or way more!) to spare spending a dime to give up on the Skyway. JTA is to the Skyway what Trump is to conceding the election. They just can't admit to the facts and will obfuscate for as long as they can.
Regarding light rail, Ock, why doesn't someone point out that the Better Jacksonville Plan (BJP) budgeted $100 million (in 20+year old dollars) to buy right of way for light or other rail and never spent a dime on it. Instead, the money went to the stadium (more dollars for the Jags, the real motivation for the BJP) and courthouse overruns. That tells you everything about our plans for improving mass transit.
JTA tried to spend that $100 million on buying land for bus rapid transit stops along I-95. Ultimately, they took to long and the money went elsewhere.
What a silly idea.
This was the original BRT plan. It was basically using transit money to pay for managed lanes in the middle of the interstate. It also went to place that were already clearly in decline (Gateway Mall, Regency Square, etc.), so the project did not align with Jax's land development trends back then:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-system-map.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-Elevated-graphic.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/nabi60brt.gif)
Here are a few sites they wanted to spend that $100 million in BJP rapid transit money on. It made no sense whatsoever and would have removed several commercial properties off the tax rolls. It actually seemed like a few properties along I-95 towards Gateway had been acquired by those in the know, who were going to make money by flipping them to JTA.
At the time, we pushed to have them abandon this silly plan by investing the rapid transit money in....a starter rapid transit line and simply revamping the existing bus lines to create BRT lite corridors. We knew that if they did not spend that $100 million, COJ would use it for something else, knowing the city's past track record.
Eventually, the original plan was proven to be too expensive and highly unpopular. It was scaled down to what the First Coast Flyer is today but they took so long to use that BJP money, I suspect it likely went to help cover the higher costs for the Duval County Courthouse. The money saved is something we'll never get public credit for but it was a honor to kill that thing and keep Jax from blowing a billion on what would have become a public laughing stock.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2692-p1050138.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2685-p1050150.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2680-p1050147.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2690-p1050146.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2686-p1050145.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2724-p1050123.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2726-p1050118.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2691-p1050154.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2683-p1050151.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2682-p1050156.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2679-p1050155.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2681-arlington-brt-2.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2687-p1050137.JPG)
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 18, 2020, 09:47:53 PM
Regarding light rail, Ock, why doesn't someone point out that the Better Jacksonville Plan (BJP) budgeted $100 million (in 20+year old dollars) to buy right of way for light or other rail and never spent a dime on it. Instead, the money went to the stadium (more dollars for the Jags, the real motivation for the BJP) and courthouse overruns. That tells you everything about our plans for improving mass transit.
That was not the motivation for the BJP. However, it was a major loss that JTA and the city didn't make good use of that $100 million rather than moving it to other things. We'd have a functioning fixed transit system by now.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 19, 2020, 12:00:52 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 18, 2020, 09:47:53 PM
Regarding light rail, Ock, why doesn't someone point out that the Better Jacksonville Plan (BJP) budgeted $100 million (in 20+year old dollars) to buy right of way for light or other rail and never spent a dime on it. Instead, the money went to the stadium (more dollars for the Jags, the real motivation for the BJP) and courthouse overruns. That tells you everything about our plans for improving mass transit.
That was not the motivation for the BJP. However, it was a major loss that JTA and the city didn't make good use of that $100 million rather than moving it to other things. We'd have a functioning fixed transit system by now.
I stand corrected regarding the stadium. It was the circa 1993 River City Renaissance plan that paid for the stadium (which I will reassert was the real motivation for RCR). Like BJP, though, many other projects it promoted did not pan out due to poor planning, under funding, redirected funds, etc. Probably the worst legacy of RCR was the total leveling of LaVilla with no master or realistic plan for its redevelopment.
Below, from the City's Ordinance Code is what BJP was supposed to pay for. The courthouse, alone, came in at, as I recall, $360 to $380 million vs. the $190 million budgeted. Another example of City mismanagement of mega projects. (a)(6) was the allocation of $100 million for rapid transit ROW.
While there were some real gems in some of these plans, big chunks benefited the usual suspects such as contractors and developers. To seduce voters, the formula is to throw in a few long hoped-for projects (e.g drainage, new library, arena, parks) to build up voter support. Significant projects didn't play out as voters where led to believe as the plans left too much discretion to elected officials, after passage, to change priorities.
QuoteThe goals of The Better Jacksonville Plan, i.e., growth management, improving and constructing roads, environmental protection and preservation and targeted economic development, and providing public facilities shall be accomplished by the acquisition, construction and development of the following projects, listed with their approximate costs:
(a) Roads/infrastructure/transportation. A $1,500,000,000 Work Program with $750,000,000 funded from the restructuring of existing JTA and City sources, and the remaining $750,000,000 funded from The Better Jacksonville ½ Cent Sales Surtax. The Work Program includes new, expanded and widened roads; interchanges, overpasses and intersection improvements; and also includes:
(1) Road resurfacing .....$105,000,000
(2) Drainage .....70,000,000
(3) Sidewalks/bike paths .....20,000,000
(4) Landscaping/tree planting along road improvement projects .....18,000,000
(5) Safety grade crossings .....25,000,000
(6) Rapid transit right-of-way acquisition .....100,000,000
(b) Environment/quality of life.
(1) Land acquisition through the preservation project .....50,000,000
(2) Neighborhood parks .....15,000,000
(3) Environmental clean-up .....25,000,000
(4) Septic tank remediation .....75,000,000
(c) Targeted economic development.
(1) Northwest Jacksonville Economic Development Trust Fund .....25,000,000
(2) Cecil Field, including recreational and equestrian facilities .....25,000,000
(3) Jacksonville Zoo .....10,000,000
(d) Public facilities/downtown.
(1) Main library .....95,000,000
(2) Library branch improvements .....55,000,000
(3) Arena .....125,000,000
(4) Baseball park .....25,000,000
(5) Courthouse .....190,000,000
(e) The Better Jacksonville Plan Projects Contingency .....35,000,000
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 19, 2020, 07:06:24 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 19, 2020, 12:00:52 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 18, 2020, 09:47:53 PM
Regarding light rail, Ock, why doesn't someone point out that the Better Jacksonville Plan (BJP) budgeted $100 million (in 20+year old dollars) to buy right of way for light or other rail and never spent a dime on it. Instead, the money went to the stadium (more dollars for the Jags, the real motivation for the BJP) and courthouse overruns. That tells you everything about our plans for improving mass transit.
That was not the motivation for the BJP. However, it was a major loss that JTA and the city didn't make good use of that $100 million rather than moving it to other things. We'd have a functioning fixed transit system by now.
I stand corrected regarding the stadium. It was the circa 1993 River City Renaissance plan that paid for the stadium (which I will reassert was the real motivation for RCR). Like BJP, though, many other projects it promoted did not pan out due to poor planning, under funding, redirected funds, etc. Probably the worst legacy of RCR was the total leveling of LaVilla with no master or realistic plan for its redevelopment.
Below, from the City's Ordinance Code is what BJP was supposed to pay for. The courthouse, alone, came in at, as I recall, $360 to $380 million vs. the $190 million budgeted. Another example of City mismanagement of mega projects. (a)(6) was the allocation of $100 million for rapid transit ROW.
While there were some real gems in some of these plans, big chunks benefited the usual suspects such as contractors and developers. To seduce voters, the formula is to throw in a few long hoped-for projects (e.g drainage, new library, arena, parks) to build up voter support. Significant projects didn't play out as voters where led to believe as the plans left too much discretion to elected officials, after passage, to change priorities.
QuoteThe goals of The Better Jacksonville Plan, i.e., growth management, improving and constructing roads, environmental protection and preservation and targeted economic development, and providing public facilities shall be accomplished by the acquisition, construction and development of the following projects, listed with their approximate costs:
(a) Roads/infrastructure/transportation. A $1,500,000,000 Work Program with $750,000,000 funded from the restructuring of existing JTA and City sources, and the remaining $750,000,000 funded from The Better Jacksonville ½ Cent Sales Surtax. The Work Program includes new, expanded and widened roads; interchanges, overpasses and intersection improvements; and also includes:
(1) Road resurfacing .....$105,000,000
(2) Drainage .....70,000,000
(3) Sidewalks/bike paths .....20,000,000
(4) Landscaping/tree planting along road improvement projects .....18,000,000
(5) Safety grade crossings .....25,000,000
(6) Rapid transit right-of-way acquisition .....100,000,000
(b) Environment/quality of life.
(1) Land acquisition through the preservation project .....50,000,000
(2) Neighborhood parks .....15,000,000
(3) Environmental clean-up .....25,000,000
(4) Septic tank remediation .....75,000,000
(c) Targeted economic development.
(1) Northwest Jacksonville Economic Development Trust Fund .....25,000,000
(2) Cecil Field, including recreational and equestrian facilities .....25,000,000
(3) Jacksonville Zoo .....10,000,000
(d) Public facilities/downtown.
(1) Main library .....95,000,000
(2) Library branch improvements .....55,000,000
(3) Arena .....125,000,000
(4) Baseball park .....25,000,000
(5) Courthouse .....190,000,000
(e) The Better Jacksonville Plan Projects Contingency .....35,000,000
Again, not true. Most of the projects included in the BJP have been completed or are in development. The courthouse did run amok but there's little that didn't get done outright. That includes the hundreds of millions in infrastructure projects that people don't remember as long as the big ticket items, but are just as important to the people they benefit. The fixed transit item may be the only big thing that was cut. And the didn't inordinately benefit the "usual suspects" although there was a preference for local and/or Black owned companies if the bids were close.
^ Who got the lions share of the contracts for the $105 million in road repavings and other improvements? How many overpasses where promised and not built? How much improved the Northwest Quadrant? How many septic tanks got replaced?
Please refresh on what land preservation took place? Was that the Timucuan Preserve?
It's been 20 years and you say some projects are still being completed. What are they? Why so long to finish?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 20, 2020, 07:15:12 PM
^ Who got the lions share of the contracts for the $105 million in road repavings and other improvements? How many overpasses where promised and not built? How much improved the Northwest Quadrant? How many septic tanks got replaced?
Please refresh on what land preservation took place? Was that the Timucuan Preserve?
It's been 20 years and you say some projects are still being completed. What are they? Why so long to finish?
I don't have all this info off the top of my head, but I can get it. Here's what I can answer off the top of my head:
*I know there were multiple contractors for the road and sidewalk projects. Most of the work is completed but my understanding is there are some long term projects that aren't done or only got done recently.
*BJP invested $25 million into a Northwest Jax economic development fund. That is on top of the infrastructure work that took place there. Besides Downtown, the Northwest received more investment than any other part of the city. Both the economic development fund and the infrastructure investments were successful; our perpetual problem in the Northwest and other areas is we don't consistently build on past investment.
*They spent like $75 million on septic tanks. All the ones identified in that program were remediated.
*All told the Preservation Project was 50,000 acres. There's a map of what was preserved in page 2 of this article (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/secret-jacksonville-bulls-bay-preserve-and-waterfall/).
Many of the JTA's MobilityWorks projects come from the BJP project list. I think all of the "overpasses" in BJP are no longer overpasses, but surface-level improvements. For example, both Atlantic/University and Beach/University were in BJP as overpasses, but were recently completed with added turn lanes and other changes.
https://mobilityworks.jtafla.com/
Quote from: Tacachale on November 22, 2020, 11:37:08 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 20, 2020, 07:15:12 PM
^ Who got the lions share of the contracts for the $105 million in road repavings and other improvements? How many overpasses where promised and not built? How much improved the Northwest Quadrant? How many septic tanks got replaced?
Please refresh on what land preservation took place? Was that the Timucuan Preserve?
It's been 20 years and you say some projects are still being completed. What are they? Why so long to finish?
I don't have all this info off the top of my head, but I can get it. Here's what I can answer off the top of my head:
*I know there were multiple contractors for the road and sidewalk projects. Most of the work is completed but my understanding is there are some long term projects that aren't done or only got done recently.
*BJP invested $25 million into a Northwest Jax economic development fund. That is on top of the infrastructure work that took place there. Besides Downtown, the Northwest received more investment than any other part of the city. Both the economic development fund and the infrastructure investments were successful; our perpetual problem in the Northwest and other areas is we don't consistently build on past investment.
*They spent like $75 million on septic tanks. All the ones identified in that program were remediated.
*All told the Preservation Project was 50,000 acres. There's a map of what was preserved in page 2 of this article (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/secret-jacksonville-bulls-bay-preserve-and-waterfall/).
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 23, 2020, 02:13:00 PM
Many of the JTA's MobilityWorks projects come from the BJP project list. I think all of the "overpasses" in BJP are no longer overpasses, but surface-level improvements. For example, both Atlantic/University and Beach/University were in BJP as overpasses, but were recently completed with added turn lanes and other changes.
https://mobilityworks.jtafla.com/
Thanks for the responses and updates.
I think the Preservation Project land purchases will turn out to be the most enduring legacy of the BJP and Delaney's term. A hundred or more years from now these purchases will still be paying dividends while all the other projects will likely be long forgotten.
Although we have short changed park maintenance due to our refusal to raise taxes (multiple mayors are responsible for this), I am still an advocate for continuing to make the purchases (including along the riverfront Downtown) as the fleeting opportunities to save these lands for public use will, typically, never come around again and are, thus, lost forever once developed otherwise.
I am under the impression that Coxwell got the lion's share of the paving projects. Mousa, after overseeing these contracts for the City, subsequently went to work for Coxwell. That didn't make for good optics in my mind. Let me know (I know you will!) if I have this wrong.
^Throw $233 million into the Northbank and you could have some awesome and amazing public spaces along with preserved and restored historic buildings and a vibrant and authentic pedestrian friendly environment. Just saying....
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2020, 08:21:22 AM
This was the original BRT plan. It was basically using transit money to pay for managed lanes in the middle of the interstate. It also went to place that were already clearly in decline (Gateway Mall, Regency Square, etc.), so the project did not align with Jax's land development trends back then:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-system-map.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-Elevated-graphic.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/nabi60brt.gif)
Here are a few sites they wanted to spend that $100 million in BJP rapid transit money on. It made no sense whatsoever and would have removed several commercial properties off the tax rolls. It actually seemed like a few properties along I-95 towards Gateway had been acquired by those in the know, who were going to make money by flipping them to JTA.
At the time, we pushed to have them abandon this silly plan by investing the rapid transit money in....a starter rapid transit line and simply revamping the existing bus lines to create BRT lite corridors. We knew that if they did not spend that $100 million, COJ would use it for something else, knowing the city's past track record.
Eventually, the original plan was proven to be too expensive and highly unpopular. It was scaled down to what the First Coast Flyer is today but they took so long to use that BJP money, I suspect it likely went to help cover the higher costs for the Duval County Courthouse. The money saved is something we'll never get public credit for but it was a honor to kill that thing and keep Jax from blowing a billion on what would have become a public laughing stock.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2692-p1050138.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2685-p1050150.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2680-p1050147.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2690-p1050146.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2686-p1050145.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2724-p1050123.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2726-p1050118.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2691-p1050154.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2683-p1050151.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2682-p1050156.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2679-p1050155.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2681-arlington-brt-2.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2687-p1050137.JPG)
Well... huh. I'd read a few old articles on here about BRT proposals, but I had no idea it was
that bad. To think we could have had our very own MetroRail system a decade ago. Although who's to say they would have done the land use right?
I know we talk a lot on here about what a mess City Hall has been for going on decades now, but it does seem that JTA really needs to share more of the blame than it usually does. From improperly utilizing the Skyway to dragging their feet on Amtrak to U2C and their weird addiction to BRT, I can't help but wonder where they keep getting these crappy ideas. Every once in a while they do something nice like JRTC, but that's certainly not enough. So what the hell is happening over there?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 24, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
^Throw $233 million into the Northbank and you could have some awesome and amazing public spaces along with preserved and restored historic buildings and a vibrant and authentic pedestrian friendly environment. Just saying....
(https://jasoneppink.com/wp-content/gallery/the-reaction-gif-moving-image-as-gesture/confused-jaguars-fan.gif)
Although the U2C thing is Skyway 2.0, the JTA of today is much better than the JTA of yesterday. The bus system has been reorganized to reduce route duplication and reduce headways, the crazy BRT plan is being implemented as BRT lite and a more size appropriate JRTC has finally been completed. These are all things that were done under Ford. I also can't completely blame them for the lack of DT land uses integrated with existing Skyway stations. We've had 30 years to have TOD around existing stations. However, with no coordinated master plan, development hasn't been set up to support it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/rl0FOxdz7CcxO/source.gif)
JTA put out an Invitation to Bid yesterday for a fixed-price contract to construct the station. Bid is due a month from tomorrow, to be voted on by the board in February.
Between this and the mini-overhaul, it seems that perhaps there's been some kind of change in perspective at JTA. I imagine it has something to do with a realization that U2C is much further out than initially anticipated, and their decision to focus on it 3-5 years ago instead of a proper replacement means they now have to make the existing system work for much longer.
Extending to Brooklyn (does that make this a 3 mile system now instead of 2.5?) could be a real winner if they market it right. Clean up the stations, find a way to get... I dunno, a coffee and bagel cart on the ground floor, and get as flashy as possible about it to convince people to walk from the restaurants and apartments around there to the station in order to connect to the rest of Downtown. Looking at the track layout, you might have to consider this extension a third line, which could be a real coup in terms of marketing. Central Station would have three branches depending on where you want to go: Brooklyn, Southbank, or LaVilla.
Update:
The build contract was awarded to Superior Construction last month. Unclear when exactly construction will start.
Funny story, a few hours after that last post, the Daily Record put out an article. A coincidence for the ages, I decided to check the procurement site completely by happenstance.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jta-approves-dollar1-21-million-bid-for-brooklyn-skyway-station
Interesting that costs went up $400k between last year and now, apparently for "a new skywalk connection to the Brooklyn area." And there's a projected opening time, September 2021. Some choice quotes:
QuoteThe Brooklyn extension eventually could be adapted to support autonomous vehicles in phase II of JTA's proposed Ultimate Urban Circulator program.
Sure...
QuoteJTA CEO Nathaniel Ford said Feb. 25 that Skyway service expansion to Brooklyn is justified because of the surge of residential and retail development in the area over the past 15 to 20 years.
The neighborhood will have more than 1,000 apartments by the end of 2021.
Ford said the Skyway also will serve employment growth with Fidelity National Information Services Inc.'s new headquarters under construction along Riverside Avenue.
"This renaissance brings a much-needed energy to the Brooklyn area; however, the results have led to a need for additional transportation and infrastructure," Ford said.
6 months until completion? I like the sound of that! I do wish the route would go farther into Brooklyn toward 5 point, but this new stop goes a long way toward making the system actually take people from where they are to where they want/need to be. This opens up tons of dining for southbank residents and connects the stated 1,000 residents of Brooklyn to the CBD.
I wish reporters had a better grasp of local geography
Quote
Plans filed with the city in March 2020 show the project will link the Central Skyway Station at Bay and Lee streets in LaVilla to the Downtown Northbank neighborhood.
The Brooklyn Station does connect to the Central Skyway Station; but it is on Bay between Pearl and Julia, over a half-mile from the JRTC, the closest station to Bay and Lee (and still a block away from that intersection)
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 04, 2021, 08:54:31 AM
6 months until completion? I like the sound of that! I do wish the route would go farther into Brooklyn toward 5 point, but this new stop goes a long way toward making the system actually take people from where they are to where they want/need to be. This opens up tons of dining for southbank residents and connects the stated 1,000 residents of Brooklyn to the CBD.
I hope they market the absolute hell out of it. September is really perfect timing for this. By then it sounds like a decent number of people should be vaccinated and able to safely take advantage of it. Plus the new skywalk should hopefully help ease connectivity to it. Really makes this a lynchpin of connectivity for Brooklyn to Downtown.
It would be nice to go further, but then I remember that the station apparently needed for that would have been $20 million and I feel less bad about it. At the end of the day, this is the first "expansion" of the Skyway in twenty years and that deserves
some celebration, even if it's a little less substantial than this forum would have wanted.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 04, 2021, 09:44:52 AM
I wish reporters had a better grasp of local geography
Quote
Plans filed with the city in March 2020 show the project will link the Central Skyway Station at Bay and Lee streets in LaVilla to the Downtown Northbank neighborhood.
The Brooklyn Station does connect to the Central Skyway Station; but it is on Bay between Pearl and Julia, over a half-mile from the JRTC, the closest station to Bay and Lee (and still a block away from that intersection)
Weird, that's a bizzare error. Maybe they originally meant the JRTC for some reason and then changed the title and not the streets?
Been thinking about doing an article on this one. We suggested this no-frills ground level station concept to JTA over 13 years ago. I have the dig up the old threads and articles but they are still on this site. At the time, there were excuses made to why it could not be done and then tons of money was spent going after an elevated station alternative that ultimately failed. It's great to see them circle back around to the idea of no-frills and highly affordable transit solutions.
QuoteInteresting that costs went up $400k between last year and now
Concrete and steel costs have continued to rise, thanks to Trump. Not surprising that the bid exceeded the initial RFP cap.
Quotethen tons of money was spent going after an elevated station alternative that ultimately failed
If I remember correctly, JTA said that they couldn't build an at-grade platform as this would cause people walking along the sidewalk to wander on to the platform and risk near-certain electrocution, which I found very, very amusing.
Think of all that ROW that was wasted along Riverside Ave due to JTA wanting to extend a station down to Riverside/Forest. This is why there is such a setback at 220 Riverside, 200 Riverside, Brooklyn Station and Brooklyn Place... due to that easement that runs parallel to Riverside Ave. I think there are some aerials that show this old easement from the MJ archives.
The 2013 TIGER Grant application that we wrote a recommendation for, also provided for an elevated station design.
Ultimately, JTA quietly sold the land that was slated for the elevated station at Riverside/Forrest to one of their road contractors. This piece of property is slated to become The Hub infill project by the developers behind Southern Grounds Coffee:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-hub-infill-development-proposed-for-brooklyn/?fbclid=IwAR0VUFIWLzlCm5wm_BRSSdYjtBtgMT-3XLDSU-oZGoEAYKfGfV5MzLmXe2c (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-hub-infill-development-proposed-for-brooklyn/?fbclid=IwAR0VUFIWLzlCm5wm_BRSSdYjtBtgMT-3XLDSU-oZGoEAYKfGfV5MzLmXe2c)
More of Ned Jones' developments:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/southern-grounds-coffee-proposed-in-avondale/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/southern-grounds-coffee-proposed-in-avondale/)
^Interesting retail proposal. I can't imagine why someone would want to add more retail space or why Southern Grounds would want to open a new coffee shop on Riverside Avenue. Did they not read the LaVilla Master Plan report and what it had to say about Brooklyn's retail environment?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2021, 01:17:48 PM
^Interesting retail proposal. I can't imagine why someone would want to add more retail space or why Southern Grounds would want to open a new coffee shop on Riverside Avenue. Did they not read the LaVilla Master Plan report and what it had to say about Brooklyn's retail environment?
Ha, ha.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 04, 2021, 01:02:16 PM
If I remember correctly, JTA said that they couldn't build an at-grade platform as this would cause people walking along the sidewalk to wander on to the platform and risk near-certain electrocution, which I found very, very amusing.
I mean, I guess it's not out of the question, if there was no fence for some reason. There's no reason that can't happen at the stations though. Although, has
anyone ever died after jumping onto the Skyway's beam and getting electrocuted?
QuoteThink of all that ROW that was wasted along Riverside Ave due to JTA wanting to extend a station down to Riverside/Forest. This is why there is such a setback at 220 Riverside, 200 Riverside, Brooklyn Station and Brooklyn Place... due to that easement that runs parallel to Riverside Ave. I think there are some aerials that show this old easement from the MJ archives.
The 2013 TIGER Grant application that we wrote a recommendation for, also provided for an elevated station design.
Ultimately, JTA quietly sold the land that was slated for the elevated station at Riverside/Forrest to one of their road contractors. This piece of property is slated to become The Hub infill project by the developers behind Southern Grounds Coffee:
I don't think it's
wrong that JTA hoped that extension would happen, and planned with it in mind. Generally it's a good thing to think ahead like that. The problem is that it never happened.
This does beg the question now of what
is the long-term plan for that type of connectivity in the area? With U2C seemingly out of the question for at least a decade, what else happens now? The easement is there, is there anything else we could use it for at this point? Or does JTA just bide its time until AVs are worked out?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 04, 2021, 11:26:50 PM
This does beg the question now of what is the long-term plan for that type of connectivity in the area? With U2C seemingly out of the question for at least a decade, what else happens now? The easement is there, is there anything else we could use it for at this point? Or does JTA just bide its time until AVs are worked out?
I don't think anything should be done with the Skyway in Brooklyn after this station opens. Most of the neighborhood still falls within a 1/4 radius of the station. The primarily focus should be continuing to densify within that station walk shed. In the meantime, they should further vet and figure this U2C thing out.
Do you think running the skyway as a track system technology should continue into 5 points? I really don't like the idea of going back into traffic for any extensions personally.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 05, 2021, 08:33:26 AM
Do you think running the skyway as a track system technology should continue into 5 points? I really don't like the idea of going back into traffic for any extensions personally.
A large concrete beam going down Riverside Avenue (or anywhere else) would sever street connectivity. You would have to construct more elevated tracks and stations, and then acquire right-of-way to do so (and where would you do that in a farily dense environment?)... which would be hugely expensive, and wouldn't be worthwhile.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on March 04, 2021, 11:26:50 PM
I don't think it's wrong that JTA hoped that extension would happen, and planned with it in mind. Generally it's a good thing to think ahead like that. The problem is that it never happened.
This does beg the question now of what is the long-term plan for that type of connectivity in the area? With U2C seemingly out of the question for at least a decade, what else happens now? The easement is there, is there anything else we could use it for at this point? Or does JTA just bide its time until AVs are worked out?
Long term planning is great. My point was, the long-term planning that started in the late 1980's, that led to the urban freeway we now have in Forrest Street and Riverside Ave, as well as a ridiculous easement to preserve land for a Skyway station that never happened (nor needed to happen) was an extremely expensive mistake, that will never be adequately corrected in my lifetime. Jacksonville has spent TONS of money in the guise of urban revitalization. Most of that money has been spent incorrectly.
Here is some info on how the grid network got severed, and why Brooklyn looks like it does today.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/)
As an aside, Park Street is in the process of being retrofitted throughout Riverside to accommodate BRT stations, and once the Brooklyn section of Park Street goes under construction for the road diet, JTA will then add their BRT stations along that section as well. Those BRT lines run directly into the JRTC in LaVilla and connect to pretty much anywhere in JTA's route network (including the Skyway).
You can see the BRT stations in Brooklyn through this link:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/plans-filed-for-park-street-road-diet/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/plans-filed-for-park-street-road-diet/)
^With BRT running down Park, running the U2C to Riverside and Five Points makes little sense. Add a BRT station in Brooklyn (with the JRTC being the transfer point to the Skyway) and call it a day.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 05, 2021, 09:02:24 AM
Long term planning is great. My point was, the long-term planning that started in the late 1980's, that led to the urban freeway we now have in Forrest Street and Riverside Ave, as well as a ridiculous easement to preserve land for a Skyway station that never happened (nor needed to happen) was an extremely expensive mistake, that will never be adequately corrected in my lifetime. Jacksonville has spent TONS of money in the guise of urban revitalization. Most of that money has been spent incorrectly.
Here is some info on how the grid network got severed, and why Brooklyn looks like it does today.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/)
So it's not that there was a plan, it's that the plan was poorly thought out and not actually conducive to building a prosperous neighborhood. And also apparently overseen by spiteful, car-centered officials.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 05, 2021, 09:02:24 AMAs an aside, Park Street is in the process of being retrofitted throughout Riverside to accommodate BRT stations, and once the Brooklyn section of Park Street goes under construction for the road diet, JTA will then add their BRT stations along that section as well. Those BRT lines run directly into the JRTC in LaVilla and connect to pretty much anywhere in JTA's route network (including the Skyway).
You can see the BRT stations in Brooklyn through this link:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/plans-filed-for-park-street-road-diet/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/plans-filed-for-park-street-road-diet/)
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2021, 09:15:21 AM
^With BRT running down Park, running the U2C to Riverside and Five Points makes little sense. Add a BRT station in Brooklyn (with the JRTC being the transfer point to the Skyway) and call it a day.
That sounds like more than an aside. It sounds like you two are saying that the plans as they stand are essentially in conflict with each other due to not taking into account each other's existence. And that JTA really needs to think about what their transit strategy for that neighborhood actually is, and make sure that whatever they choose to do connects effectively and is useful for the community.
Yes. We need a downtown vision plan that coordinates land use and development strategy, along with transit investment and station placement. From what's being proposed, you can see that we clearly don't have one, despite what officials claimed the other week.
Finally, the skyway will go somewhere people will actually want to go.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2021, 09:15:21 AM
^With BRT running down Park, running the U2C to Riverside and Five Points makes little sense. Add a BRT station in Brooklyn (with the JRTC being the transfer point to the Skyway) and call it a day.
The BRT and Skyway seem to be serving different purposes though. The Flyer BRT is medium- to long-distance commuters, while the Skyway (like Lymmo in Orlando or Metromover in Miami) is an urban circulator. The BRT stops in Brooklyn are more likely to be used by people working in Brooklyn than anyone living there (unless they do a reverse commute).
If U2C stays free like the Skyway, then stops in Brooklyn at Forest/Park and Five Points would follow this same idea. BRT for those commuting in, and U2C as the urban circulator.
^ First of all, welcome!
Seeing as U2C still happening is somewhat in question, I don't know how much there is to argue with in regards to that. But I would be surprised if there were no fares, seeing as it seems pretty well intended for app payment akin to Uber or Lyft.
Quote from: WAJAS on March 06, 2021, 03:08:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2021, 09:15:21 AM
^With BRT running down Park, running the U2C to Riverside and Five Points makes little sense. Add a BRT station in Brooklyn (with the JRTC being the transfer point to the Skyway) and call it a day.
The BRT and Skyway seem to be serving different purposes though. The Flyer BRT is medium- to long-distance commuters, while the Skyway (like Lymmo in Orlando or Metromover in Miami) is an urban circulator. The BRT stops in Brooklyn are more likely to be used by people working in Brooklyn than anyone living there (unless they do a reverse commute).
The systems aren't mutually exclusive. There's some cross pollination needed for all of them to be successful. For example, Metromover in Miami is fed riders by Metrorail. There are some stops on the fringe of downtown Miami that are served by Metrorail (ex. like Overtown) that aren't served by Metromover. The location of Brooklyn to the Northbank is very similar to Overtown's location to Miami's historic CBD. With BRT running down Park Street in Brooklyn every 10 to 15 minutes and also connecting into the Skyway at the JRTC, one could argue that it would be a waste of millions to extend the U2C along the same corridor. Strategically locate a BRT stop on Park, close to Forest Street (so that the Southside of Brooklyn is accessible to the transit network) and use the millions saved to connect the Skyway/U2C into an area of the urban core that is not adequately served. Oh and no, the U2C won't be free.
I decided to do some research to further inform my position, and wow, the Skyway is in a worse state than I thought. In 2018, it cost 12 USD per rider, which is 5.54/12.1 times the cost per rider of Lymmo/Metromover. Sadly, there is not any more recent data, but it wouldn't be good anyways b/c COVID affected the 2019/2020 fiscal year. I expect the Flyer routes increased ridership somewhat after 2018, and that the closure of the Jefferson and Convention Center station during all of 2018 decreased ridership. I'd assume the actual Skyway cost per rider is about 8.6 based on an annual ridership of 1.2 million. That's 3.87/8.47 times the cost per rider of Lymmo/Metromover. Honestly, the system has actually been in an upwards direction in the past decade.
Back on topic, the Brooklyn station would need at least 66 daily riders to match the rest of the line, which is a 100% achievable target IMO (assuming no Weekend service). That's only 33 two-way trips. If it has any more than 66 daily riders, it will decrease the cost per rider of the total system, which I assume will be a given based on the number of residential units and restaurants within 1/4 mile.
I wish JTA had more detailed ridership numbers and technical data in general. Station by station ingress/egress would be appreciated.
Orlando and Miami have done a great job of building up and densifying their downtowns since 2000, which benefit the Lymmo/Metromover. In Jax, unfortunately, we've done the exact opposite, finding a way to largely miss out on the two major urban economic boom periods of the first two decades of the 20th century. The Skyway suffers greatly as a result. A comparison of these three urban circulator systems really highlights the importance of supportive land use policy and strategy.
JTA's Making Moves this month had a segment about the new Brooklyn Station.
https://youtu.be/X8EoRQr42XY?t=886
Thanks for sharing (and time-coding!), Marcus.
Will use this line multiple times a week when it opens.
Would be cool to see a second leg of scooter share stretch from the new Brooklyn Station into Riverside/Five Points.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2021, 11:49:51 PM
Orlando and Miami have done a great job of building up and densifying their downtowns since 2000, which benefit the Lymmo/Metromover. In Jax, unfortunately, we've done the exact opposite, finding a way to largely miss out on the two major urban economic boom periods of the first two decades of the 20th century. The Skyway suffers greatly as a result. A comparison of these three urban circulator systems really highlights the importance of supportive land use policy and strategy.
These are good things to miss out on. This is pure tail wagging the dog level stuff.
The purpose of public transportion should be to provide _NEEDED_ movements to people WHO CAN NOT WELL AFFORD A CAR. Doing anything else with it is elistist, harmful and self serving.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on May 18, 2021, 09:57:14 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2021, 11:49:51 PM
Orlando and Miami have done a great job of building up and densifying their downtowns since 2000, which benefit the Lymmo/Metromover. In Jax, unfortunately, we've done the exact opposite, finding a way to largely miss out on the two major urban economic boom periods of the first two decades of the 20th century. The Skyway suffers greatly as a result. A comparison of these three urban circulator systems really highlights the importance of supportive land use policy and strategy.
These are good things to miss out on. This is pure tail wagging the dog level stuff.
The purpose of public transportion should be to provide _NEEDED_ movements to people WHO CAN NOT WELL AFFORD A CAR. Doing anything else with it is elistist, harmful and self serving.
Are you saying people who can afford a car should not use public transportation? The purpose of public transportation should be to provide needed movements to people who can and cannot afford a car and anyone else who wants to use it. Transit-dependent neighborhoods should be given priority however we should also be focused on building an efficient and reliable transportation system throughout the entire region so those who currently drive are encouraged to seek other options. Driving a car shouldn't be the end goal.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on May 18, 2021, 09:57:14 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2021, 11:49:51 PM
Orlando and Miami have done a great job of building up and densifying their downtowns since 2000, which benefit the Lymmo/Metromover. In Jax, unfortunately, we've done the exact opposite, finding a way to largely miss out on the two major urban economic boom periods of the first two decades of the 20th century. The Skyway suffers greatly as a result. A comparison of these three urban circulator systems really highlights the importance of supportive land use policy and strategy.
These are good things to miss out on. This is pure tail wagging the dog level stuff.
The purpose of public transportion should be to provide _NEEDED_ movements to people WHO CAN NOT WELL AFFORD A CAR. Doing anything else with it is elistist, harmful and self serving.
Are you saying that Jacksonville's urban core neighborhoods missing out on two economic booms in the last 20 years is a good thing?
Any updates on this? It's been a while, and there's still no construction.
Obviously this project appears to have quietly evaporated in the face of JTA attempting to make the U2C conversion happen instead, but a thought: With all the money DIA is already spending to incentivize and subsidize projects in Brooklyn, is there a case for the DIA handing money to JTA with the explicit purpose of getting that station open, to leverage the money spent getting Whole Foods and all the new apartments built? Probably won't happen (unless Lori Boyer sees this) but possibly a worthwhile thought exercise?
No, not a chance. The market for apartments in Brooklyn is already there. The Skyway and U2C are irrelevant in Brooklyn from a market perspective. It would not be a good use of the DIA's resources. If JTA really wanted a station in Brooklyn, they already have more than enough money for it. It's simply not a priority for them.
That makes sense. Just seems bad from an urban planning standpoint that the transit system is such a non-factor in development patterns. But yeah, they should have just done it.
I wonder if maybe it might have turned out that the system is breaking down to the point of no longer being physically able to operate that additional route on a schedule? Just spitballing.
It's certainly bad planning. Unfortunately, that's where we find ourselves in Jacksonville today.