Good piece in the Jax Business Journal about how Springfield's positive development is impacting adjacent neighborhoods:
"For years, 'Springfield is up and coming' was a common refrain heard among city leaders, Realtors and early pioneers.
These days, the neighborhood seems to have up and came: After going through several micro-booms, the historic neighborhood has been on a steady trajectory of growth since the housing crisis of 2008.
Now, with Main Street attracting retailers, vacant lots being purchased and housing values rising, the growth in the historic square-mile neighborhood is beginning to spill over, with data pointing to nearby Phoenix and Brentwood as two of Jacksonville's on-the-verge hot spots."
Full story:
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/02/28/going-beyond-the-boundaries-as-springfield-booms.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline
For the record, New Springfield is a real area, not a marketing ploy (read the article for context).
Quote from: Bill Hoff on February 28, 2020, 02:14:39 PM
(read the article for context).
If only it wasn't behind a paywall...
Oh well
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 28, 2020, 02:55:53 PM
Quote from: Bill Hoff on February 28, 2020, 02:14:39 PM
(read the article for context).
If only it wasn't behind a paywall...
Oh well
You're the guy that asks for unlimited free samples at the ice cream shop, huh? Charming.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on February 28, 2020, 03:14:50 PM
You're the guy that asks for unlimited free samples at the ice cream shop, huh? Charming.
I didn't even ask for it to be reposted, I just noted that I could, in fact, not read it. No need to be a dick, dude.
I love whats happening in Springfield, but there is a LONG LONG way to go. You do a serious inventory of Main Street from 1st through 8th, both sides of the street, there's a lot of vacant lots and non-performing storefronts and buildings. Way over 50%.
Bill, what's going into the old Quality Foods on 7th? (It's under contract...)
Quote from: MusicMan on February 29, 2020, 03:20:04 PM
I love whats happening in Springfield, but there is a LONG LONG way to go. You do a serious inventory of Main Street from 1st through 8th, both sides of the street, there's a lot of vacant lots and non-performing storefronts and buildings. Way over 50%.
Bill, what's going into the old Quality Foods on 7th? (It's under contract...)
Yea, I think everyone would agree. Come a long way, but still a lot of improvement left to achieve.
Part of that inventory issue you mentioned is because the main commercial district is much larger than that of 5 Points, San Marco, Avondale. If all the decent businesses on Main Street were condensed to 4-5 blocks, like those areas, instead of 12 as they are now, you'd have a totally different impression.
But, they're not. And that's why some larger institutional offices, apartment developments, etc are probably going to be needed to fill up the large expanse that is Springfield's Main Street.
Quote from: MusicMan on February 29, 2020, 03:20:04 PM
Bill, what's going into the old Quality Foods on 7th? (It's under contract...)
I've heard of something, but it's just speculation.
Springfield would only be considered a success story in Jacksonville. I've lived in Jax for 17 years and Springfield is barely more than it was back then.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 08:10:39 AM
Springfield would only be considered a success story in Jacksonville. I've lived in Jax for 17 years and Springfield is barely more than it was back then.
17 years is not long enough to realize how far it has come from it's absolute bottom in the 80s. In the 40s, 50s, and 60s it was a thriving, though rough, area. It had a large Setzer's grocery between 7th and 8th, Capitol theater, many restaurants, shoe store, Berrier's ice cream shop, doughnut shop, all within a few short blocks from 8th and main. The Southern Bakery, Merita, drive-ins, etc. It was a vibrant area. It started it's decline in 70s and when crack cocaine entered the scene it went to ruin. I'm glad to see the improvements.
Springfield has been 'on the way back' since at least the early to mid '90's.
I literally can't think of anything that a neighborhood can experience that Springfield hasn't at some point in its existence.
If the city did not impede progress and be a significant absentee landlord, it would be further along than it is.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 08:10:39 AM
Springfield would only be considered a success story in Jacksonville. I've lived in Jax for 17 years and Springfield is barely more than it was back then.
Then you haven't been to Springfield in 17 years. The commercial was not happening whatsoever for most of that time. Now it is. That's a GIANT improvement.
Quote from: Steve on March 02, 2020, 09:10:59 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 08:10:39 AM
Springfield would only be considered a success story in Jacksonville. I've lived in Jax for 17 years and Springfield is barely more than it was back then.
Then you haven't been to Springfield in 17 years. The commercial was not happening whatsoever for most of that time. Now it is. That's a GIANT improvement.
Again, Springfield is only a success story in Jax. No other city in America moves this slow at revitalization. I have seen entire cities turn around fast than Springfield has.
Springfield may be up and coming but one's standards have to be pretty low to say it's "up and came". Not even close.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on March 02, 2020, 01:17:25 PM
Springfield may be up and coming but one's standards have to be pretty low to say it's "up and came". Not even close.
And that is a problem. When the people who should be the most critical of Jax leadership (media, activist, etc...) operate as cheerleaders there is little wonder things moves at a snail's pace. There is simply no accountability for the lack of progress.
I didn't read the article and I don't know who wrote it, but based on the headline and excerpt provided, it should have been killed as soon as it was typed. This stuff is actually hurting downtown growth, not helping.
Who wins when you lie to yourself?
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 01:02:37 PM
Quote from: Steve on March 02, 2020, 09:10:59 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 08:10:39 AM
Springfield would only be considered a success story in Jacksonville. I've lived in Jax for 17 years and Springfield is barely more than it was back then.
Then you haven't been to Springfield in 17 years. The commercial was not happening whatsoever for most of that time. Now it is. That's a GIANT improvement.
Again, Springfield is only a success story in Jax. No other city in America moves this slow at revitalization. I have seen entire cities turn around fast than Springfield has.
That's wonderful.
Would I like to see Springfield's turnaround go faster? Yes. Has it been slow? Yes. Does it mean it's not a reason to be happy for the neighborhood and our city? No.
Quote from: Steve on March 02, 2020, 01:42:27 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 01:02:37 PM
Quote from: Steve on March 02, 2020, 09:10:59 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 08:10:39 AM
Springfield would only be considered a success story in Jacksonville. I've lived in Jax for 17 years and Springfield is barely more than it was back then.
Then you haven't been to Springfield in 17 years. The commercial was not happening whatsoever for most of that time. Now it is. That's a GIANT improvement.
Again, Springfield is only a success story in Jax. No other city in America moves this slow at revitalization. I have seen entire cities turn around fast than Springfield has.
That's wonderful.
Would I like to see Springfield's turnaround go faster? Yes. Has it been slow? Yes. Does it mean it's not a reason to be happy for the neighborhood and our city? No.
But it IS a reason to not be happy. It is a lie. Springfield can't even sustain its own growth let alone having positive spill-over affects on adjacent areas. Hell, a more realistic story would be "Lackluster Development In Springfield Delaying Reurbanization of Otherhaving.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 02:00:04 PM
Quote from: Steve on March 02, 2020, 01:42:27 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 01:02:37 PM
Quote from: Steve on March 02, 2020, 09:10:59 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 08:10:39 AM
Springfield would only be considered a success story in Jacksonville. I've lived in Jax for 17 years and Springfield is barely more than it was back then.
Then you haven't been to Springfield in 17 years. The commercial was not happening whatsoever for most of that time. Now it is. That's a GIANT improvement.
Again, Springfield is only a success story in Jax. No other city in America moves this slow at revitalization. I have seen entire cities turn around fast than Springfield has.
That's wonderful.
Would I like to see Springfield's turnaround go faster? Yes. Has it been slow? Yes. Does it mean it's not a reason to be happy for the neighborhood and our city? No.
But it IS a reason to not be happy. It is a lie. Springfield can't even sustain its own growth let alone having positive spill-over affects on adjacent areas. Hell, a more realistic story would be "Lackluster Development In Springfield Delaying Reurbanization of Otherhaving.
How have they not sustained their growth?
Look, I'm the first to say that DVI does too much cheerleading and not enough looking in the mirror. I definitely don't think that Springfield folks are content to sit back and say, "everything is great"
What do you mean how? 20+ years and they are still in the starting gate. It is basically a Ponzi scheme where hype is still the main driver. Businesses are opening/moving to Springfield for what it can become, not what it already is, and most of those are replacing business that already tried that strategy - and closed.
"I can't see any improvement, so there is none"
Ok, pal
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 02, 2020, 03:03:28 PM
"I can't see any improvement, so there is none"
Ok, pal
Define improvement.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 03:04:27 PM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 02, 2020, 03:03:28 PM
"I can't see any improvement, so there is none"
Ok, pal
Define improvement.
There is quality renovated housing in the area, there are destination restaurants and venues which bring in outsiders to the area, there are public art installations and an improved/updated streetscape along Main St, significant sections of blighted areas are improved, adaptive reuse and infill projects are in place and programmed.
Can't see it if you don't visit!
For three school years from 2012-2015, every day, I drove my oldest from Lakewood, over the Main Street Bridge and up Main Street to Kirby Smith Middle. After four year hiatus, I'm doing it again, everyday, with my youngest. It is simply not true to say there has been no improvement. The improvement is in everything that Peter Griffin has posted, no only on Main Street, but down other streets. Fewer boarded up houses, clusters of renovated houses throughout that are being cared for and lived in.
Another thing. Many more joggers and walkers up and down Main Street at 7:45 in the morning.
Screw it - you want to believe Springfield is making none, little, some, or amazing progress have at it.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 02, 2020, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 03:04:27 PM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 02, 2020, 03:03:28 PM
"I can't see any improvement, so there is none"
Ok, pal
Define improvement.
There is quality renovated housing in the area, there are destination restaurants and venues which bring in outsiders to the area, there are public art installations and an improved/updated streetscape along Main St, significant sections of blighted areas are improved, adaptive reuse and infill projects are in place and programmed.
Can't see it if you don't visit!
I think that's a pretty good definition of "improvement".
Look, if we want to argue that the neighborhood isn't Avondale, San Marco, or any of 1,000 neighborhoods in the Utopian Society the Gods refer to as "Oklahoma City", I'll go with you. The revitalization job isn't done, though I'd love to know what neighborhood IS done. I'll also agree this should have taken WAY less time than it did. Many places that did revitalize did slow/stop during the housing crisis (and in Springfield there needed to be more oversight as to some of the games that were being played that artificially inflated housing prices which definitely set the neighborhood back years).
But to say there's been no improvement or that the neighborhood is somehow not better than it was 5 years ago is just incorrect.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 03:41:25 PM
Screw it - you want to believe Springfield is making none, little, some, or amazing progress have at it.
Do you HONESTLY believe the neighborhood isn't better than it was 5 years ago?
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 02:52:41 PM
What do you mean how? 20+ years and they are still in the starting gate. It is basically a Ponzi scheme where hype is still the main driver. Businesses are opening/moving to Springfield for what it can become, not what it already is, and most of those are replacing business that already tried that strategy - and closed.
Demonstrably untrue. There are obviously more businesses open on Main Street today than there were just 3 or 4 years ago. It's also not true that they're moving there due to "hype". We did a walking tour of the neighborhood Saturday morning and visited or passed by numerous businesses that were bustling even at that time. It's also plain to see that there's more rehab work and new construction in Springfield now than there likely ever has been in most folks' living memory.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 03:41:25 PM
Screw it - you want to believe Springfield is making none, little, some, or amazing progress have at it.
Read: "I was proven wrong, but refuse to accept that I was wrong, so I'll just pretend I am still right!"
Humble pie tastes fantastic once you get used to the taste.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 02, 2020, 04:03:58 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 03:41:25 PM
Screw it - you want to believe Springfield is making none, little, some, or amazing progress have at it.
Read: "I was proven wrong, but refuse to accept that I was wrong, so I'll just pretend I am still right!"
Humble pie tastes fantastic once you get used to the taste.
Not at all. My bar just isn't set as low as your bar is. If you are happy with the amazing progress of Springfield who am I to say you shouldn't be. I have the benefit of traveling the country almost every week so my frame of reference isn't Springfield 2020 vs Springfield 2010 vs Springfield 1990. It is looking at the rate of change of Springfield as it compares to the rate of change across a collection of places I travel to.
And maybe that is the root cause of the issue of perception. You think Springfield's competition is against Springfield of 1990, and I think Springfield's competition, and by extension all of Jax, is our peer cities today.
If your motto is "Hey, we're better today than we were 10 years ago" then good luck with that. The rest of the world doesn't see it that way.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 04:21:40 PM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 02, 2020, 04:03:58 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 03:41:25 PM
Screw it - you want to believe Springfield is making none, little, some, or amazing progress have at it.
Read: "I was proven wrong, but refuse to accept that I was wrong, so I'll just pretend I am still right!"
Humble pie tastes fantastic once you get used to the taste.
Not at all. My bar just isn't set as low as your bar is. If you are happy with the amazing progress of Springfield who am I to say you shouldn't be. I have the benefit of traveling the country almost every week so my frame of reference isn't Springfield 2020 vs Springfield 2010 vs Springfield 1990. It is looking at the rate of change of Springfield as it compares to the rate of change across a collection of places I travel to.
And maybe that is the root cause of the issue of perception. You think Springfield's competition is against Springfield of 1990, and I think Springfield's competition, and by extension all of Jax, is our peer cities today.
If your motto is "Hey, we're better today than we were 10 years ago" then good luck with that. The rest of the world doesn't see it that way.
Or at least Kerry doesn't.
Why do you live here, Kerry? Did you lose a bet?
Quote from: blizz01 on March 02, 2020, 04:41:39 PM
Why do you live here, Kerry? Did you lose a bet?
Because my wife won't move....yet.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 04:21:40 PM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on March 02, 2020, 04:03:58 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 03:41:25 PM
Screw it - you want to believe Springfield is making none, little, some, or amazing progress have at it.
Read: "I was proven wrong, but refuse to accept that I was wrong, so I'll just pretend I am still right!"
Humble pie tastes fantastic once you get used to the taste.
Not at all. My bar just isn't set as low as your bar is. If you are happy with the amazing progress of Springfield who am I to say you shouldn't be. I have the benefit of traveling the country almost every week so my frame of reference isn't Springfield 2020 vs Springfield 2010 vs Springfield 1990. It is looking at the rate of change of Springfield as it compares to the rate of change across a collection of places I travel to.
And maybe that is the root cause of the issue of perception. You think Springfield's competition is against Springfield of 1990, and I think Springfield's competition, and by extension all of Jax, is our peer cities today.
If your motto is "Hey, we're better today than we were 10 years ago" then good luck with that. The rest of the world doesn't see it that way.
There is nothing wrong with looking back and seeing how much better the neighborhood is than 5 years ago. There is also nothing wrong with aspiring to be better than we are today. You just shouldn't let one interfere with the other. One article about the neighborhood I don't believe is evidence that the neighborhood is going to stop work to improve.
As I said in an earlier post, Springfield has literally seen it all, if you go back far enough. From white flight, crime infestation, arsonists, becoming the default location of every crime North of the St. John's, the coal ash issue that arose for a bit, massive run-up in property vales to the massive crash that followed. Add to that the 'new old home' construction company that tried to tear down every vacate house left. A commercial renaissance that flamed out and seems to be occurring once again. And can't leave out the Craig Van Horn story nor the SPAR drama episodes.
You literally could do a NetFlix documentary series on it.
All of that said, it seems to be doing as well or even much better now than at any time in the last half century. I can't disagree with Kerry though that given the time period involved, there could and should have been more progress. I blame the disjointed, on-again off-again, leadership from the city. The latest efforts seem to be a lot more independent of the city, so that is probably a really good thing.
Let me explain it a little differently.
Raise your hand if you are happy with the improvement of the Jags under Khan's ownership? I think most of you would say No, and some of you maybe even Hell No. Others might even take exception with using the word 'improvement' at all.
However, if you look at winning percentage over 8 season the team has shown constant improvement, especially if you take out the 2017 season. Their winning percentage increased in 4 seasons and only declined in 3. That is a positive slope - i.e. improvement.
But you say "the Jags aren't competitive and don't make the playoffs". So what? The 2019 Jags were better than every Jags team since 2012 (except the 2017 team) yet many are canceling their season tickets.
What football is to you urban development is to me. I don't want Jax to be an also-ran City. I want to compete...and WIN.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 05:05:26 PM
Let me explain it a little differently.
Raise your hand if you are happy with the improvement of the Jags under Khan's ownership? I think most of you would say No, and some of you maybe even Hell No. Others might even take exception with using the word 'improvement' at all.
However, if you look at winning percentage over 8 season the team has shown constant improvement, especially if you take out the 2017 season. Their winning percentage increased in 4 seasons and only declined in 3. That is a positive slope - i.e. improvement.
But you say "the Jags aren't competitive and don't make the playoffs". So what? The 2019 Jags were better than every Jags team since 2012 (except the 2017 team) yet many are canceling their season tickets.
What football is to you urban development is to me. I don't want Jax to be an also-ran City. I want to compete...and WIN.
Khan bought the team after 2011. He's had the team 8 seasons. His record over those 8 years is worse than the previous 8 years, or any 8 year period that Weaver owned the team.
So Khan's tenure on the field is worse than Weaver's tenure. If there were less business on Main Street or lower home values today than 8 years ago I'd agree with you.
People that I couldn't get to come to my house in the late aughts/early teens for fear of crime and safety; now travel from the beach, Nocatee, and other places to go to Crispy's, Strings, etc. Nuff said.
It's pretty miraculous what Springfield has done without a CRA and complete lack of investment from COJ. Virtually any other city in the country would have sunk a lot more money into capital projects at a park like Klutho and provided programming. I mean, does COJ even help out with Porchfest? Imagine how much more reach that festival would have if COJ chipped in $50-100k a year to get a couple of headlining acts to play at the Klutho bandshell....Other than fixing the one way issue onto Main Street, has COJ made any kind of mobility or pedestrian related improvements in the last decade in Springfield? Is the City doing anything to actually fund Hogan's Creek Greenway or Groundworks Jax projects?
The ceiling of Springfield is through the roof, if COJ could ever get it together and take the neighborhood to the next level.
Quote from: Steve on March 02, 2020, 05:15:00 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 05:05:26 PM
Let me explain it a little differently.
Raise your hand if you are happy with the improvement of the Jags under Khan's ownership? I think most of you would say No, and some of you maybe even Hell No. Others might even take exception with using the word 'improvement' at all.
However, if you look at winning percentage over 8 season the team has shown constant improvement, especially if you take out the 2017 season. Their winning percentage increased in 4 seasons and only declined in 3. That is a positive slope - i.e. improvement.
But you say "the Jags aren't competitive and don't make the playoffs". So what? The 2019 Jags were better than every Jags team since 2012 (except the 2017 team) yet many are canceling their season tickets.
What football is to you urban development is to me. I don't want Jax to be an also-ran City. I want to compete...and WIN.
Khan bought the team after 2011. He's had the team 8 seasons. His record over those 8 years is worse than the previous 8 years, or any 8 year period that Weaver owned the team.
So Khan's tenure on the field is worse than Weaver's tenure. If there were less business on Main Street or lower home values today than 8 years ago I'd agree with you.
So when you compare Khan ownership to Weaver ownership what time frame does that correspond to in Springfield - 1940?
Maybe you just need to give Khan 12 more years then judge.
Kerry, I have often felt that you may be misinformed and truly prejudiced against Jacksonville. Now you have removed all doubt. You can't compare other cities' transformations unless you knew how bad the bottom was. The changes in Springfield are amazing when compared to only a short time ago.
Quote from: Snaketoz on March 02, 2020, 05:47:18 PM
Kerry, I have often felt that you may be misinformed and truly prejudiced against Jacksonville. Now you have removed all doubt. You can't compare other cities' transformations unless you knew how bad the bottom was. The changes in Springfield are amazing when compared to only a short time ago.
I think vicupstate got it right a few posts back. Yes 2020 Springfield is better than 2000 Springfield is better than 1990 Springfield, but when you divide it by the 20 years (or 30) it took to get from A to B, the annual rate of change is practically non-existant.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 06:15:49 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on March 02, 2020, 05:47:18 PM
Kerry, I have often felt that you may be misinformed and truly prejudiced against Jacksonville. Now you have removed all doubt. You can't compare other cities' transformations unless you knew how bad the bottom was. The changes in Springfield are amazing when compared to only a short time ago.
I think vicupstate got it right a few posts back. Yes 2020 Springfield is better than 2000 Springfield is better than 1990 Springfield, but when you divide it by the 20 years (or 30) it took to get from A to B, the annual rate of change is practically non-existant.
The biggest growth has happened within the last 5 years. Put down the stick, dude.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 06:15:49 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on March 02, 2020, 05:47:18 PM
Kerry, I have often felt that you may be misinformed and truly prejudiced against Jacksonville. Now you have removed all doubt. You can't compare other cities' transformations unless you knew how bad the bottom was. The changes in Springfield are amazing when compared to only a short time ago.
I think vicupstate got it right a few posts back. Yes 2020 Springfield is better than 2000 Springfield is better than 1990 Springfield, but when you divide it by the 20 years (or 30) it took to get from A to B, the annual rate of change is practically non-existant.
You are confusing Springfield with San Marco getting a Publix. I grew up in Brentwood/Springfield. The changes in Brentwood are sad. The changes to Springfield are amazing.
Just to reset - the article is about the impact of the Springfield Historic District's positive development on adjacent neighborhoods.
While Kerry can have his opinions, you can ask a Realtor and renter. Realtors will tell you those looking for "great" investments are moving North to New Springfield to find the same type of deals found in Springfield 10 years ago. Renters will tell you it's pretty darn hard to find quality rentals available in the Springfield Historic District these days, and people are also heading North to New Springfield to do so. Regarding rentals, the demand is high and the supply is artificially low, as MANY rental owners have converted to Airbnb exclusively, wiping out much of the supply. It's a legitimate problem - 2 different people on the SPAR board of directors had to look for months before finding a rental in the 'hood.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 04:46:29 PM
Quote from: blizz01 on March 02, 2020, 04:41:39 PM
Why do you live here, Kerry? Did you lose a bet?
Because my wife won't move....yet.
Anything we can do to help convince her to move since you clearly aren't happy?
Kerry,
Where is your wife now?
One of the Springfield restaurant owners recently told me that within the last year, 600 new restaurant seats opened in Springfield (I think I have that right). I agree with Kerry about the 20 year average pace, but the pace is accelerating.
Funny not to hear the word "gentrification" in this discussion.
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 03, 2020, 03:12:59 PM
One of the Springfield restaurant owners recently told me that within the last year, 600 new restaurant seats opened in Springfield (I think I have that right).
People say a lot of shit. The number of new resteraunts sets is not a known thing. We could look at fire Marshall capacity; that's known.
What was the total capacity 5 years ago? What is it today? To me, I see activity, places closing and reopening. But I don't there being a double digit growth in capacity over the last 5 years.