Looks like we're a bit closer to reducing the ramps over by the stadium.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/three-firms-bid-to-tear-down-hart-bridge-ramp-near-tiaa-bank-field
The amount of torque to be used as people accelerate towards the remaining ramps will be incredible.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 17, 2020, 11:08:16 AM
The amount of torque to be used as people accelerate towards the remaining ramps will be incredible.
Torque doesn't cause acceleration, power does.
Also, what are you trying to say?
Quote from: Peter Griffin on January 17, 2020, 11:19:42 AM
Torque doesn't cause acceleration, power does.
Oops.
Quote
Also, what are you trying to say?
Since this project looks to be happening without any improvements to make it anything other than a street-level expressway with a traffic light, people will stop for that light and then immediately speed up to get back onto the other ramp.
^You're right. They'll also speed up coming down the ramps, in order to beat the red light.
I was just being pedantic and kidding around about the torque/power misconception.
As for the speeding, I think there's gonna be a lot more traffic lights on this project than most would think. There's too many moving parts to keep this all free-flow, lotsa signalization seems almost necessary to keep merging traffic and cross traffic in order.
The mainline has two lights, a ramp and an interchange. Unless they put fences up to channel pedestrians to those two lights, you'll have jaywalking between the ramps to deal with as well. Especially during special events.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2020, 04:06:59 PM
The mainline has two lights, a ramp and an interchange. Unless they put fences up to channel pedestrians to those two lights, you'll have jaywalking between the ramps to deal with as well. Especially during special events.
I don't think so... There's a signal at the existing crosswalk on Gator Bowl Blvd which I fully expect to be retained, there's got to be one where the ramps near Intuition come down Eastbound, there's got to be a couple on the new intersection with Gator Bowl Blvd. There will be at least 3 places to cross the new roadway based on the concepts we've been shown.
Intuition is west of the ramp at A. Philip Randolph. These are the only two marked crossings between the ramps (both of which are more dangerous than current conditions).
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Transportation/Hart-Bridge-Ramp-Removal-Plan/i-PpLNZv7/0/5e945ba1/L/Hart%20Bridge%20Overpass%20Modification%20-%20F-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Transportation/Hart-Bridge-Ramp-Removal-Plan/i-GM24rvh/0/26bb8659/L/Hart%20Bridge%20Overpass%20Modification%20-%20H-L.jpg)
In addition, people will jaywalk unless there are physical barriers driving pedestrians to the marked crossings.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2020, 04:34:20 PM
In addition, people will jaywalk unless there are physical barriers driving pedestrians to the marked crossings.
In this area, that should be changed to "Lot J Walk!" Haha.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 17, 2020, 07:25:19 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2020, 04:34:20 PM
In addition, people will jaywalk unless there are physical barriers driving pedestrians to the marked crossings.
In this area, that should be changed to "Lot J Walk!" Haha.
I respect what you did here.
;D
Hmmm, is this a sign that Lot J, and even the convention center might happen? They sure are keeping secrets and then bam! They hit us with it.
Quote from: heights unknown on January 17, 2020, 09:16:10 PM
Hmmm, is this a sign that Lot J, and even the convention center might happen? They sure are keeping secrets and then bam! They hit us with it.
This is Jacksonville. I can see the ramps coming down....and nothing at all being built. But demolishing something?? Absolutely!!
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2020, 03:29:15 PM
^You're right. They'll also speed up coming down the ramps, in order to beat the red light.
there likely won't be a red light - all but one light has been removed from the current plan - all that remains are two pedestrian-activated crosswalk signals
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2020, 04:34:20 PM
Intuition is west of the ramp at A. Philip Randolph. These are the only two marked crossings between the ramps (both of which are more dangerous than current conditions).
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Transportation/Hart-Bridge-Ramp-Removal-Plan/i-PpLNZv7/0/5e945ba1/L/Hart%20Bridge%20Overpass%20Modification%20-%20F-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Transportation/Hart-Bridge-Ramp-Removal-Plan/i-GM24rvh/0/26bb8659/L/Hart%20Bridge%20Overpass%20Modification%20-%20H-L.jpg)
In addition, people will jaywalk unless there are physical barriers driving pedestrians to the marked crossings.
Quotethere likely won't be a red light - all but one light has been removed from the current plan - all that remains are two pedestrian-activated crosswalk signals
Are you saying the two signals where the new ramp at the east end, to/from the Hart Bridge, are "gone" or that they are "pedestrian activated"? It looks like they are necessary to make safe the left turns to/from the north/south portion of Gator Bowl Boulevard.
^ plans have changed since those that are shown (from April 2019). From what I understand, there are no regular traffic signals - only two corssing signals that are pedestrian activated.
Besides the current location, where is the other ped crossing?
Seems that removing the signals on the east end will cause traffic and safety problems, especially on event days.
Tangent: Has the City figured out where they will move RV City?
Pedestrian activated signals on a high speed roadway are a death trap. Did they not just see what happened on SR A1A in Brevard County over the holidays?
QuoteThe Sunday crosswalk crash has ignited social media criticism of the Florida Department of Transportation's new SR A1A mid-block crosswalks, where pedestrians push buttons to activate flashing yellow warning lights.
The girl was struck at 5:37 p.m. Sunday by a northbound vehicle near Ellwood Avenue, Satellite Beach police reported in a press release. Mark Nelson said his daughter pressed the button and activated the lights, waited for several cars to pass, then stepped into the crosswalk during a "long gap" before the next car. But the oncoming vehicle did not stop and struck her, he said
https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2019/12/26/satellite-beach-girl-12-dies-christmas-after-a-1-a-crosswalk-crash/2748928001/
Speed probably wasn't the issue. According to FDOT & others data, that crosswalk is in the middle of a stretch of A1A that's set up like the usual STROAD and, worse, even though it's inbetween residential and the beach, goes for nearly 3 miles without a traffic light.
That is, nothing is creating breaks in the traffic for pedestrians. Throwing a ped crossing light at it helps but isn't the same.
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=28.143401369221166&lng=-80.60572908023886&z=13.42964162492902&menu=false&signs=true&detections=true
Farah and Farah gotta love it!
The ramps parallel to Bay Street / Gator Bowl Boulevard will close Saturday, and traffic will be detoured to the Talleyrand ramp and GB Blvd. to get from the Hart Bridge to downtown.
Quote
March 30, 2020
This serves as a notification for scheduled road closures of the Hart Bridge elevated Expressway Ramps. These changes are necessary to allow for the removal of the elevated Expressway ramps from A. Phillip Randolph Blvd eastward to the Hart Bridge connection; reconstruction of Gator Bowl Blvd from Hogan's Creek eastward to Talleyrand Ave and construction of the new connections to the remaining elevated Expressway Ramp with new bridge spans over A. Phillip Randolph Blvd and new bridge connection to the Hart Bridge Expressway.
This road closure will begin on April 4, 2020.
These changes are part of the project plan to allow for the demolition of 56 spans of the elevated ramps next to the river. The initial project phase is scheduled to allow for connecting Gator Bowl Blvd to the Hart Bridge.
Please follow the installed detour signage carefully for your safety.
Traffic control devices will be installed for the safety of vehicular and pedestrian traffic as well as safety of the construction crews in the area. Traffic Control Officers will be located at key intersections during peak hours and during lane closures to direct traffic.
The detour to Gator Bowl Blvd. will direct vehicles near the federal COVID-19 testing location at Lot J, but there is no risk to drivers and passengers traveling through.
https://www.coj.net/welcome/news/construction-detour-alert-for-hart-bridge-expressw
Tearing these down is questionable on any basis but doing so with no absolute guarantee of Khan's planned developments playing out as he has proposed or a timetable for same is just another example of the City's poor business acumen.
Regardless, given all the urgent needs in our community, prioritizing this project above them amounts to mis-allocating some $50 million of the taxpayers' money. Jacksonville has repeated the cycle of chasing pots of gold at the end of imaginary rainbows for decades and still hasn't learned its lesson.
Drat. I tried to paste the Lucky Charms leprechaun here but it didn't work.
LOLOL...now that we're in a semi-depression, and a firm recession, I don't think anything planned or proposed will happen. I think they should just leave them up until further notice.
They should leave them up until Kahn gets a building permit, and starts moving soil. Duh!
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 03, 2020, 02:14:21 PM
They should leave them up until Kahn gets a building permit, and starts moving soil. Duh!
LOLOL...that's their call; they've got the moula (money) and other resources to do what you said...DUH!
Snaketoz, #24: are u serious, Khan really does not have a building permit yet? If so, how can COJ even think about tearing down ramps?
sandy - the deal for Lot J subsidy* has not even been sent to City Council yet
* the City and Khan call it "incentives" or "public-private partnership", but it is what it is, a quarter-billion dollar (at least) public subsidy of a private development
Quote from: sandyshoes on April 05, 2020, 03:40:26 PM
Snaketoz, #24: are u serious, Khan really does not have a building permit yet? If so, how can COJ even think about tearing down ramps?
........You must be new to Jacksonville.
I wonder if coronavirus screws with the numbers Curry's budget numbers? With the JEA fallout and then COVID-19, the future budget has taken a couple of devastating uppercuts.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2020, 07:01:00 PM
I wonder if coronavirus screws with the numbers Curry's budget numbers? With the JEA fallout and then COVID-19, the future budget has taken a couple of devastating uppercuts.
Curry had screwy budget numbers long before coronavirus. I like how he saved us huge sums of money on The Landing. Instead of spending a relatively small sum on fixing-up the place, and by his statements "wasting taxpayer money", he paid too much for the place and tore it down. He really got over on that Sleiman guy huh? Lenny Curry is a man who will go down in history as the king of city owned vacant lots.
QuoteI like how he saved us huge sums of money on The Landing. Instead of spending a relatively small sum on fixing-up the place, and by his statements "wasting taxpayer money", he paid too much for the place and tore it down. He really got over on that Sleiman guy huh?
With the whole COVID 19 virus killing off retail centers for months, Sleiman lucked out with Curry's generous offer. Imagine the fire sale offer Curry might have gotten now. I am sure Sleiman is using his City gifted $15 million to lick his wounds on his other centers, not likely that he needs the help.
Had to run to the office this morning to pick up some mail and forward my calls.
They've reduced the Hart Bridge down to one lane for the entire length of the bridge.
Gonna be a nightmare when the city opens back up.
Even better, the detour dumps you right into the line for covid-19 testing.
Classic Jax.
How long is the demolition suppose to take?
Quote from: vicupstate on April 10, 2020, 02:23:51 PM
How long is the demolition suppose to take?
Through end of 2021.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 10, 2020, 01:47:00 PM
They've reduced the Hart Bridge down to one lane for the entire length of the bridge.
That won't be the permanent configuration. The detour was developed before the COVID site was developed (before COVID was a widely known issue at all, for that matter)
Short video I took from the Hart Bridge detour this morning.
Detour traffic in the left lane, covid-19 testing in the right line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMgy3CWzDZo
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 05, 2020, 08:32:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2020, 07:01:00 PM
I wonder if coronavirus screws with the numbers Curry's budget numbers? With the JEA fallout and then COVID-19, the future budget has taken a couple of devastating uppercuts.
Curry had screwy budget numbers long before coronavirus. I like how he saved us huge sums of money on The Landing. Instead of spending a relatively small sum on fixing-up the place, and by his statements "wasting taxpayer money", he paid too much for the place and tore it down. He really got over on that Sleiman guy huh? Lenny Curry is a man who will go down in history as the king of city owned vacant lots.
He did not pay too much for the place. The city owned it.
The city council chose that the best option was to buy out the lease holder Sleiman Properties. A key issue is was the expensive promised the city made to Sleiman as part of the lease. This is an expense they undertook regardless of demolition to mitigate the city's liability.
Had the city not demo it, the risk is that the politicians like Curry would just turn around keep it limping along until they were desperate enough to yet again over promise and over pay for a big development.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 13, 2020, 12:01:43 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 05, 2020, 08:32:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2020, 07:01:00 PM
I wonder if coronavirus screws with the numbers Curry's budget numbers? With the JEA fallout and then COVID-19, the future budget has taken a couple of devastating uppercuts.
Curry had screwy budget numbers long before coronavirus. I like how he saved us huge sums of money on The Landing. Instead of spending a relatively small sum on fixing-up the place, and by his statements "wasting taxpayer money", he paid too much for the place and tore it down. He really got over on that Sleiman guy huh? Lenny Curry is a man who will go down in history as the king of city owned vacant lots.
He did not pay too much for the place. The city owned it.
The city council chose that the best option was to buy out the lease holder Sleiman Properties. A key issue is was the expensive promised the city made to Sleiman as part of the lease. This is an expense they undertook regardless of demolition to mitigate the city's liability.
Had the city not demo it, the risk is that the politicians like Curry would just turn around keep it limping along until they were desperate enough to yet again over promise and over pay for a big development.
Technically, the city didn't own the building, only the land. In theory they would have owned the building when the lease expired, but that was decades away.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 13, 2020, 12:01:43 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 05, 2020, 08:32:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2020, 07:01:00 PM
I wonder if coronavirus screws with the numbers Curry's budget numbers? With the JEA fallout and then COVID-19, the future budget has taken a couple of devastating uppercuts.
Curry had screwy budget numbers long before coronavirus. I like how he saved us huge sums of money on The Landing. Instead of spending a relatively small sum on fixing-up the place, and by his statements "wasting taxpayer money", he paid too much for the place and tore it down. He really got over on that Sleiman guy huh? Lenny Curry is a man who will go down in history as the king of city owned vacant lots.
He did not pay too much for the place. The city owned it.
The city council chose that the best option was to buy out the lease holder Sleiman Properties. A key issue is was the expensive promised the city made to Sleiman as part of the lease. This is an expense they undertook regardless of demolition to mitigate the city's liability.
Had the city not demo it, the risk is that the politicians like Curry would just turn around keep it limping along until they were desperate enough to yet again over promise and over pay for a big development.
Totally false. Sleiman owned the building and had payed $5 million for it. The city payed $15 million for the building plus another $10 million and counting to evict 30 businesses, demolish the structure, settle the East Lot litigation the city initiated, and some engineering and landscaping that as of yet hasn't even started. The city didn't have any other expenses tied to the Landing other than the parking element that never was settled and basic maintenance they'd been neglecting (and wouldn't have cost $25 million).
If the city hadn't demolished the building, we wouldn't have spent a bunch of taxpayer money for an empty lot that can't even be called a lawn yet. That's about the balance of it.
^ thankfully the lawn is coming soon - in time for everyone to enjoy it from their homes ;)
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2020, 02:49:29 PM
Sleiman owned the building and had payed $5 million for it.
Almost $6, actually. Weird deal. I didn't realize folks were foolish enough to buy buildings that were on land that they didn't own. Either way, it doesn't negate that there was a lease between Slieman and the city that had to be resolved.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2020, 02:49:29 PM
If the city hadn't demolished the building, we wouldn't have spent a bunch of taxpayer money for an empty lot that can't even be called a lawn yet. That's about the balance of it.
The lease and all the other legal liabilities would have to be settled. All of those other costs do not go away by not tearing the building down.
And all those legal liabilities, if you don't buy out Sleiman - are sitting there, waiting to be litigated. Maybe it turns out for the better if the city keeps things going. But it could've been a whole lot worse.
Either way, it's down. Unless y'll have a time machine, it cant' be undone.
Question - What gets done with the site going forward? They're pouring the black dirt and flatting it out as we speak. Does it remain that way? Should the city sell off the land to ensure it doesn't get itself into this sort of mess again? Something else?
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 27, 2020, 08:40:35 AM
Question - What gets done with the site going forward? They're pouring the black dirt and flatting it out as we speak. Does it remain that way?
It will be a grass lot for the foreseeable future and at some point in time, they'll likely lease or sell part of the land to a developer to build a smaller version of the Landing.
QuoteShould the city sell off the land to ensure it doesn't get itself into this sort of mess again? Something else?
The city is getting back into "this mess" with the same deal at Lot J. It's just Khan and Cordish instead of Sleiman and a lot more risk for the taxpayer.
QuoteI didn't realize folks were foolish enough to buy buildings that were on land that they didn't own.
Constructing, owning and selling buildings that are on leased land is quite common.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 27, 2020, 09:37:40 AM
QuoteI didn't realize folks were foolish enough to buy buildings that were on land that they didn't own.
Constructing, owning and selling buildings that are on leased land is quite common.
Thank you. Ya, I had filed them away as being a residential thing. This despite for years watching Sears sell off the good stores they had left & knowing a smidge about retail leasing.
Question - Do we know what type of lease it was? Do we know how Sleiman had things set up? I ask because part of putting itself in a bad position - it being JAX - is that they may have been at risk of Sleiman defaulting and the lenders going after the land.
That's the Ray Kroc/McDonald's model. The McDonald's Corp made some of their money selling burgers, sure, but makes most of it by bilking, I mean, leasing corporate owned land to their franchisees.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on May 05, 2020, 11:00:45 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on April 27, 2020, 09:37:40 AM
QuoteI didn't realize folks were foolish enough to buy buildings that were on land that they didn't own.
Constructing, owning and selling buildings that are on leased land is quite common.
Thank you. Ya, I had filed them away as being a residential thing. This despite for years watching Sears sell off the good stores they had left & knowing a smidge about retail leasing.
Question - Do we know what type of lease it was? Do we know how Sleiman had things set up? I ask because part of putting itself in a bad position - it being JAX - is that they may have been at risk of Sleiman defaulting and the lenders going after the land.
(pretty confident my memory is correct here)
When Sleiman bought The Landing from Rouse, he basically bought the lease - the same lease that Rouse signed with COJ. As I remember it, if Rouse defaulted on the lease, then the buildings would become COJ property.
Now knowing COJ's track record of contracts it may have resulted in having to work through the court system but that was the intent.
Saw earlier that the Hart Bridge ramps to Gator Bowl Blvd are now open
^Yep, they've been open for a bit!
LOVELY to not have to circle the stadium in order to entire and exit the bridge.
Still so strange to see the remnants of the ramps in front of Intuition though.
Should have gone ahead and finished the job and routed all traffic down Bay.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 12, 2021, 05:14:39 PMShould have gone ahead and finished the job and routed all traffic down Bay.
Yep. Maybe if the city's plan to move Sulzbacher comes around that can happen. Half assed as it is.