Not sure where this topic should go so please move to any appropriate section.
Just as an intellectual exercise, what happens to Jacksonville if the Jags were to leave? Many cities have been hit with major employers leaving, military base closures, hub airports closing, and yes, even their pro-sports team relocating.
For sake of debate, let's make the following assumptions:
1) Jags leave for London at the end of next season
2) Jags pay off stadium debt as part of exit negotiations
3) Daily's Place returned to full City ownership (or however that deal was structured)
The Jags occupy a significant portion of the City's time and money, so where do those resources get redirected to? What happens to the Stadium District, Lot J, the Shipyards? Do the Hart Bridge ramps still come down? Does JEA still get sold?
A few thoughts:
- I think the city loses the Florida Georgia game over time - at best it becomes a rotation with Atlanta. Without the Jags you can't justify the financial investment into the stadium, plus you don't have a partner. This was a concern before the Jags.
- Lot J obviously doesn't happen
- Shipyards doesn't happen by Khan but let's face it - the first Shipyards plan was announced 20 years ago. Putting this entirely on Khan or the Jags isn't correct
- Not sure JEA has anything to do with this, other than Curry is trying to move chess pieces and doing a crappy job.
- I think the city makes an attempt for the Shrimp to break into AAA Baseball (though that doesn't happen overnight), as no other leagues are looking to expand at present (save for NHL to Seattle)
- I do think it would help refocus downtown investment around the core and not split the focus with the Sports Complex
My first thought was what happens to the Florida/Georgia Game. We have a lot of money from the Bed Tax that was previously spent on the Jags (stadium debt payments) which could be redirected at not only the Florida/Georgia Game but also as a permanent host for a Season Kick-off neutral game site (see FSU-Boise St this season). It could also lead to more importance placed on the Gator Bowl. A higher payout could bring in better teams.
Having worked at Coca Cola in Atlanta for several years, and this is only anecdotal, the Bulldog fans I know don't want the game in Atlanta. They want the game to stay in Jax because it is a vacation weekend for them. From the team perspective, I doubt either team wants the game to move. It is basically a home game for UF and GA wants it as a recruiting tool (As an OU alumni this is all true with the OU/Texas game).
Lot J:
First let me say - yes I agree Lot J would be dead. However, there are a significant number of Lot J supporters who say Lot J has nothing to do with the Jags. From their perspective, why would Lot J be dead? If it produces the revenue the Jags and Mayor claim it will then Khan should still be willing to fund his half - right?
JEA:
It is my belief the only reason JEA is even considered for sale is so the money can be funneled to Lot J, the Shipyards, and stadium renovations.
The Shrimp:
For the Shrimp to move to AAA a team would have to relocate. I don't know of any considering that. However, maybe Jax could lure some kind of road racing circuit (St Pete has the Firestone Grand Prix).
Downtown Urbanization:
Part of me agrees that this would be the logical new focus, but the same inept people are still in charge at City Hall.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 09:59:50 AM
My first thought was what happens to the Florida/Georgia Game. We have a lot of money from the Bed Tax that was previously spent on the Jags (stadium debt payments) which could be redirected at not only the Florida/Georgia Game but also as a permanent host for a Season Kick-off neutral game site (see FSU-Boise St this season). It could also lead to more importance placed on the Gator Bowl. A higher payout could bring in better teams.
Having worked at Coca Cola in Atlanta for several years, and this is only anecdotal, the Bulldog fans I know don't want the game in Atlanta. They want the game to stay in Jax because it is a vacation weekend for them. From the team perspective, I doubt either team wants the game to move. It is basically a home game for UF and GA wants it as a recruiting tool (As an OU alumni this is all true with the OU/Texas game).
I can't come up with a stadium/market that serves this type of role with a major recurring neutral rivalry game that DOESN'T have a NFL team has a primary tenant - with one exception and it's the one you happened to mention: OU/Texas is at the Cotton Bowl. This is my hangup. Every other major one is in an NFL stadium.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 09:59:50 AM
Lot J:
First let me say - yes I agree Lot J would be dead. However, there are a significant number of Lot J supporters who say Lot J has nothing to do with the Jags. From their perspective, why would Lot J be dead? If it produces the revenue the Jags and Mayor claim it will then Khan should still be willing to fund his half - right?
I can't see this happening without the Jags being involved - bottom line.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 09:59:50 AM
JEA:
It is my belief the only reason JEA is even considered for sale is so the money can be funneled to Lot J, the Shipyards, and stadium renovations.
I'm not with you here. Would some money be funneled this way? Likely. Was this the only place money would be funneled? I highly doubt it.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 09:59:50 AM
The Shrimp:
For the Shrimp to move to AAA a team would have to relocate. I don't know of any considering that. However, maybe Jax could lure some kind of road racing circuit (St Pete has the Firestone Grand Prix).
Not true - the Shrimp could become a AAA team....IF the Shrimp signed an affiliation agreement with a MLB team AND they'd then likely "swap" with an existing AAA team to join either the Pacific Coast League or the International League. The franchise that's now the Shrimp was at one point a AAA team - it was a while but it was at one point. Babby isn't hugely in favor of it right now - (paraphrasing) he believes the Jacksonville market could support it but especially in the Shrimp's "position" in town knowing the Jags are the big team he doesn't see that as the ideal role for them, as costs would go up significantly (teams typically travel via plane in AAA), so prices would absolutely go up. He made a point that he wants the Shrimp to be position as something that nearly everyone could afford and that goes away if they go AAA.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 09:59:50 AM
Downtown Urbanization:
Part of me agrees that this would be the logical new focus, but the same inept people are still in charge at City Hall.
No argument there.....but at least their crappy focus would be one place vs. two. Plus, if Jacksonville were to lose the Jags, then there would be a LOT of house cleaning in government by the voters!
Here are some effects:
Hotel stays and therefore the bed tax plummets. Most planned new hotels are canceled immediately.
Obviously there would be no more talk of stadium improvements, Lot J, the Shipyards, etc.
Nothing is ever built at the Landing site. Jags games were a major source of revenue for the bars and restaurants there, and that would be gone.
We fight like hell to keep the Florida-Georgia game and make the Gator Bowl relevant again. The former works and the latter doesn't.
Naive people hope that the loss of the Jags would lead to reinvestment in the Downtown core. The opposite happens: for a lot of people, the Jags are the only reason they think or care about Downtown, let alone go there.
We try to lure in MLS or something of that nature, spending as much on the stadium for that goal as we would have for football.
Jacksonville loses a big part of its culture and quality of life, and the civic pride that comes from thousands of people from all walks of life cheering for the same team.
Whichever mayor loses the Jags gets publicly tarred and feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail made from the stadium's less comfortable goalpost.
So a significant number of Jag fans drive enough distance to justify a hotel stay? Aren't most within driving distance?
Quote from: Tacachale on December 19, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
Here are some effects:
Hotel stays and therefore the bed tax plummets. Most hotel planned new hotels are canceled immediately.
Obviously there would be no more talk of stadium improvements, Lot J, the Shipyards, etc.
Nothing is ever built at the Landing site. Jags games were a major source of revenue for the bars and restaurants there, and that would be gone.
We fight like hell to keep the Florida-Georgia game and make the Gator Bowl relevant again. The former works and the latter doesn't.
Naive people hope that the loss of the Jags would lead to reinvestment in the Downtown core. The opposite happens: for a lot of people, the Jags are the only reason they think or care about Downtown, let alone go there.
We try to lure in MLS or something of that nature, spending as much on the stadium for that goal as we would have for football.
Jacksonville loses a big part of its culture and quality of life, and the civic pride that comes from thousands of people from all walks of life cheering for the same team.
Whichever mayor loses the Jags gets publicly tarred and feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail made from the stadium's less comfortable goalpost.
^This guy nailed it.
Quote from: vicupstate on December 19, 2019, 11:35:38 AM
So a significant number of Jag fans drive enough distance to justify a hotel stay? Aren't most within driving distance?
Warm weather + cheap tickets makes Jacksonville a very attractive destination for traveling fanbases.
Jacksonville does a
ton of hotel business off the back of our home games.
The Jags aren't stopping anyone from developing the core. IMO the effects of a hypothetical Jags relocation would be very detrimental (opposed to any notable 'silver linings') for the city; it would be a huge blow.
QuoteThe Jags aren't stopping anyone from developing the core.
Not directly perhaps, but there is only so much money to go around, to say nothing of the 'focus' of those making the decisions. It is not a non-factor. It certainly has been in the past
Quote from: I-10east on December 19, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
The Jags aren't stopping anyone from developing the core. IMO the effects of a hypothetical Jags relocation would be very detrimental (opposed to any notable 'silver linings') for the city; it would be a huge blow.
I think something like delaying the convention center and shifting the location to a development likely not happening anytime in the foreseeable future does have a negative impact on others potentially interested in developing in the core. If there was a commitment to move the convention center next to the Hyatt, redevelopment of several properties within walking distance would have been more financially feasible than they are today. Now, waiting on something at the Shipyards simply means that market rate opportunity in the core is lost for the time being.
Quote from: vicupstate on December 19, 2019, 12:11:27 PM
QuoteThe Jags aren't stopping anyone from developing the core.
Not directly perhaps, but there is only so much money to go around, to say nothing of the 'focus' of those making the decisions. It is not a non-factor. It certainly has been in the past
Good point. The Jags need $233 million in public money for their project. That cash has to come from somewhere and at the expense of other needed things. Just imagine what $50 million of the $233 million would do for the core if invested there?
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 09:11:07 AM
The Jags occupy a significant portion of the City's time and money,
What's the annual city budget these days, $1.6Billion? $1.7B?
I seriously doubt the Jags even make a scratch in hotel stays. They only have 7 home games. If every room sold out on those days it is only it is less than 2% of a year's worth of availability.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 02:04:53 PM
I seriously doubt the Jags even make a scratch in hotel stays. They only have 7 home games. If every room sold out on those days it is only it is less than 2% of a year's worth of availability.
This I can tell you is factually incorrect. But to your point - let's say it made a 5% change in overall occupancy. That's a LOT in terms of new development of hotels.
I can also tell you that in negotiating a few hotel contracts in the urban core, it's absolutely something that the Sales and Marketing teams at these hotels depend on (I also dated a Director of Sales/Marketing at a suburban Jacksonville hotel for about 8 months, but that's another story). This isn't political speak and they wouldn't bring it up just to be civic minded; these are employees whose commissions are based on this.
There's obviously some variability - if the Jags are playing the Chargers then the blip will be small. The Saints game on the other hand....holy cow did they bring some people.
Think about it this way - there's only about 2,000 hotel rooms downtown. That's incredibly small for a city our size. Having a couple weekends in a month where the hotel is near capacity, when the hotel's normally don't do particularly well on weekends is a major thing.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 19, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
We try to lure in MLS or something of that nature, spending as much on the stadium for that goal as we would have for football.
This is what the Charlotte is doing with the MLS.
Quote from: Steve on December 19, 2019, 02:12:48 PM
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 02:04:53 PM
I seriously doubt the Jags even make a scratch in hotel stays. They only have 7 home games. If every room sold out on those days it is only it is less than 2% of a year's worth of availability.
This I can tell you is factually incorrect. But to your point - let's say it made a 5% change in overall occupancy. That's a LOT in terms of new development of hotels.
What is factually incorrect? The Jags DO have 7 regular season home games. 7 days is 1.9% of 356 days in a year. I would think the Carnival Cruise Ship packs in far more hotel stays than the Jags do.
However, let's say you are correct and the Jags do generate a significant percentage of hotel business. What does the CVB do to replace those nights, knowing that they now have the full Bed Tax at their disposal?
Quote from: Tacachale on December 19, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
Here are some effects:
Hotel stays and therefore the bed tax plummets. Most planned new hotels are canceled immediately.
Obviously there would be no more talk of stadium improvements, Lot J, the Shipyards, etc.
Nothing is ever built at the Landing site. Jags games were a major source of revenue for the bars and restaurants there, and that would be gone.
We fight like hell to keep the Florida-Georgia game and make the Gator Bowl relevant again. The former works and the latter doesn't.
Naive people hope that the loss of the Jags would lead to reinvestment in the Downtown core. The opposite happens: for a lot of people, the Jags are the only reason they think or care about Downtown, let alone go there.
We try to lure in MLS or something of that nature, spending as much on the stadium for that goal as we would have for football.
Jacksonville loses a big part of its culture and quality of life, and the civic pride that comes from thousands of people from all walks of life cheering for the same team.
Whichever mayor loses the Jags gets publicly tarred and feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail made from the stadium's less comfortable goalpost.
So Jax just rolls over and dies? And people think I am the negative one. Go figure.
Now that we have an NFL team, and sadly one with a poor win percentage, it's easy to discount the many positive things they bring to Jacksonville. If we ever lose them it will be a huge blow in many ways.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 02:57:22 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 19, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
Here are some effects:
Hotel stays and therefore the bed tax plummets. Most planned new hotels are canceled immediately.
Obviously there would be no more talk of stadium improvements, Lot J, the Shipyards, etc.
Nothing is ever built at the Landing site. Jags games were a major source of revenue for the bars and restaurants there, and that would be gone.
We fight like hell to keep the Florida-Georgia game and make the Gator Bowl relevant again. The former works and the latter doesn't.
Naive people hope that the loss of the Jags would lead to reinvestment in the Downtown core. The opposite happens: for a lot of people, the Jags are the only reason they think or care about Downtown, let alone go there.
We try to lure in MLS or something of that nature, spending as much on the stadium for that goal as we would have for football.
Jacksonville loses a big part of its culture and quality of life, and the civic pride that comes from thousands of people from all walks of life cheering for the same team.
Whichever mayor loses the Jags gets publicly tarred and feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail made from the stadium's less comfortable goalpost.
So Jax just rolls over and dies? And people think I am the negative one. Go figure.
Reading comprehension is important.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 02:55:35 PM
What is factually incorrect? The Jags DO have 7 regular season home games. 7 days is 1.9% of 356 days in a year. I would think the Carnival Cruise Ship packs in far more hotel stays than the Jags do.
Likely a typo, but these days the Gregorian Calendar has 365 days:).
The statement, "I seriously doubt the Jags even make a scratch in hotel stays." is incorrect. The downtown hotels usually do a decent business during the week; it's the weekend that's a challenge. The Jaguars help fix that. Will all of the downtown hotels be boarded up if the Jags leave? Unlikely. Does it hurt? Absolutely it will. Additionally, I'd say the logistics of going to a game mean it's extremely difficult (not impossible) to make it a one night trip if going to a game. Thus, it becomes a two night stay for most folks.
I'd actually doubt the cruise ship is more than the Jaguars in terms of room nights, based on the hotels in the vicinity of the terminal. Land is relatively cheap on Heckscher Drive so if there was demand there would be a slew of hotels popping up over there. There's certainly some, but not many.
In addition, a normal cruise schedule is boarding in the afternoon, and departure in the early AM, making it very easy to cruise without a hotel stay on either end. Plus (and both Carnival and the COJ stated this), Jacksonville's cruise port is very much a "drive" port, catering to travelers in a 5-6 hour drive distance from here. If you're flying anyway then fly to South Florida which has a much larger selection of cruises.
With that said, let's say the Cruise ship is more. If you're in sales and you lost a big client, do you just say, "no biggie - they weren't my biggest"?
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 02:55:35 PM
However, let's say you are correct and the Jags do generate a significant percentage of hotel business. What does the CVB do to replace those nights, knowing that they now have the full Bed Tax at their disposal?
Clearly they won't roll over and play dead. But, these opportunities don't surface overnight. Could they recover long term? Of course. Will it hurt in the short term? Absolutely.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 19, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
Nothing is ever built at the Landing site. Jags games were a major source of revenue for the bars and restaurants there, and that would be gone.
I agree with everything you said except this one. The Landing survived 8 years before the Jaguars (and you could likely argue 8 of it's best years). Obviously I'm not saying the Jaguars hurt the Landing, and due to nonsense in City Hall, nothing may be built there for a while regardless. I just can't connect the two.
So long-term, what does Jax do to replace those lost room-nights?
Quote from: Steve on December 19, 2019, 03:49:42 PM
The statement, "I seriously doubt the Jags even make a scratch in hotel stays." is incorrect. The downtown hotels usually do a decent business during the week; it's the weekend that's a challenge. The Jaguars help fix that. Will all of the downtown hotels be boarded up if the Jags leave? Unlikely. Does it hurt? Absolutely it will. Additionally, I'd say the logistics of going to a game mean it's extremely difficult (not impossible) to make it a one night trip if going to a game. Thus, it becomes a two night stay for most folks.
This is absolutely correct.
Just like many of the tenants at the Landing depended on a handful of big events each year to stay afloat, downtown hoteliers also depend on big events throughout the year (including 7 Jags home games, Florida-Georgia, big concerts, etc.) to fill rooms over the weekend.
Two-night average stay is right on the money.
Also, the bed tax money isn't going to the Jags specifically. One third ist committed to service of existing stadium debt, one third is committed to maintainence of the larger sports complex (stadium, arena, Baseball grounds, ampitheater), and one third is committed to the CVB.
If the Jags disappeared, bed taxes for other uses wouldn't go up. They'd likely go down for the foreseeable future, unless the Jags paid off the existing debt and we bulldozed the sports complex.
Quote from: Kerry on December 19, 2019, 03:56:23 PM
So long-term, what does Jax do to replace those lost room-nights?
A very good convention center would likely need to be built. Also, you would have to hope that there was some state legislation change with gambling here.
Convention centers and gambling are the answer? Sounds familiar.
I blasted through Kerry's remarks as usual there not worth reading. The Jags are basically the only reason Jacksonville is known or relevant. If you wanna know what's holding Jax back call COJ.It doesnt help that many of its own residents could care less as the city continues demolish buildings with no resources or plan in place. Stop looking for a scapegoat when the real villian is in charge!
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 20, 2019, 01:50:37 AM
The Jags are basically the only reason Jacksonville is known or relevant.
Not true at all.
In my experience, most people I have met in the UK who knew about Jax knew about it because of either Lynyrd Skynyrd, Limp Bizkit or its proximity to Orlando.
No one has mentioned the loss of jobs and high paid positions... players, coaches, staff, not to mention the lower paid seasonal jobs. Additionally the charity work performed by and donations from the Jags is invaluable. There would certainly be a monetary and quality of life decline with a move.
Quote from: Adam White on December 20, 2019, 03:51:08 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 20, 2019, 01:50:37 AM
The Jags are basically the only reason Jacksonville is known or relevant.
Not true at all.
In my experience, most people I have met in the UK who knew about Jax knew about it because of either Lynyrd Skynyrd, Limp Bizkit or its proximity to Orlando.
I prefer those examples to, "I've been through Jacksonville, what's that smell?"
It is sad that so many people think Jacksonville has nothing else to offer except the Jags.
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 08:36:36 AM
It is sad that so many people think Jacksonville has nothing else to offer except the Jags.
I would say that some of the best things Jax has to offer are not well known outside of the city. And unfortunately, I don't think our city leaders do a good job of showcasing them or really maximising their potential.
I agree.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 19, 2019, 04:58:27 PM
If the Jags disappeared, bed taxes for other uses wouldn't go up. They'd likely go down for the foreseeable future, unless the Jags paid off the existing debt and we bulldozed the sports complex.
Don't give Lenny any ideas!
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 08:36:36 AM
It is sad that so many people think Jacksonville has nothing else to offer except the Jags.
I don't think there are many people who think the Jags are all that Jax has to offer. You're really pulling imaginary people out of thin air to make your point
This whole thread is a jag-off, not an actual discussion but a lightningrod to make your grievances even better known about the Jags
Boring!
Quote from: Peter Griffin on December 20, 2019, 09:16:03 AM
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 08:36:36 AM
It is sad that so many people think Jacksonville has nothing else to offer except the Jags.
I don't think there are many people who think the Jags are all that Jax has to offer. You're really pulling imaginary people out of thin air to make your point
This whole thread is a jag-off, not an actual discussion but a lightningrod to make your grievances even better known about the Jags
Boring!
No. The intent is to see what else could happen in Jax if the Jags were out of the equation.
Jax has some attributes that haven't been developed, some that are under developed, and some things that don't even exist - but should.
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on December 20, 2019, 09:16:03 AM
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 08:36:36 AM
It is sad that so many people think Jacksonville has nothing else to offer except the Jags.
I don't think there are many people who think the Jags are all that Jax has to offer. You're really pulling imaginary people out of thin air to make your point
This whole thread is a jag-off, not an actual discussion but a lightningrod to make your grievances even better known about the Jags
Boring!
Jax has some attributes that haven't been developed, some that are under developed, and some things that don't even exist - but should.
Just like every other city on earth...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on December 20, 2019, 07:19:19 PM
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on December 20, 2019, 09:16:03 AM
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 08:36:36 AM
It is sad that so many people think Jacksonville has nothing else to offer except the Jags.
I don't think there are many people who think the Jags are all that Jax has to offer. You're really pulling imaginary people out of thin air to make your point
This whole thread is a jag-off, not an actual discussion but a lightningrod to make your grievances even better known about the Jags
Boring!
Jax has some attributes that haven't been developed, some that are under developed, and some things that don't even exist - but should.
Just like every other city on earth...
So in what area do you think Jax is knocking it out of the park? What is our success story?
How is it possible to "have an attribute" that doesn't exist?
Quote from: Tacachale on December 19, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
Here are some effects:
Hotel stays and therefore the bed tax plummets. Most planned new hotels are canceled immediately.
Obviously there would be no more talk of stadium improvements, Lot J, the Shipyards, etc.
Nothing is ever built at the Landing site. Jags games were a major source of revenue for the bars and restaurants there, and that would be gone.
We fight like hell to keep the Florida-Georgia game and make the Gator Bowl relevant again. The former works and the latter doesn't.
Naive people hope that the loss of the Jags would lead to reinvestment in the Downtown core. The opposite happens: for a lot of people, the Jags are the only reason they think or care about Downtown, let alone go there.
We try to lure in MLS or something of that nature, spending as much on the stadium for that goal as we would have for football.
Jacksonville loses a big part of its culture and quality of life, and the civic pride that comes from thousands of people from all walks of life cheering for the same team.
Whichever mayor loses the Jags gets publicly tarred and feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail made from the stadium's less comfortable goalpost.
Spot on.
Theres an almost NIMBY like opposition to Khan from some quarters on here. Its bordering on petty.
This right here. Downtown should have taken off after hosting the SB but all that energy pack and left with it. Jax went back to what it knows best, Middleburg's backyard. Let Kerry tell it and Jacksonville becomes San Diego with Baltimore's water front the day the Jags leave. Take this thread for what it's worth which is zero creditabilty!!
Quote from: Snaketoz on December 20, 2019, 08:17:48 PM
How is it possible to "have an attribute" that doesn't exist?
Try reading it again.
Quote from: minder on December 20, 2019, 08:28:29 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 19, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
Here are some effects:
Hotel stays and therefore the bed tax plummets. Most planned new hotels are canceled immediately.
Obviously there would be no more talk of stadium improvements, Lot J, the Shipyards, etc.
Nothing is ever built at the Landing site. Jags games were a major source of revenue for the bars and restaurants there, and that would be gone.
We fight like hell to keep the Florida-Georgia game and make the Gator Bowl relevant again. The former works and the latter doesn't.
Naive people hope that the loss of the Jags would lead to reinvestment in the Downtown core. The opposite happens: for a lot of people, the Jags are the only reason they think or care about Downtown, let alone go there.
We try to lure in MLS or something of that nature, spending as much on the stadium for that goal as we would have for football.
Jacksonville loses a big part of its culture and quality of life, and the civic pride that comes from thousands of people from all walks of life cheering for the same team.
Whichever mayor loses the Jags gets publicly tarred and feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail made from the stadium's less comfortable goalpost.
Spot on.
Theres an almost NIMBY like opposition to Khan from some quarters on here. Its bordering on petty.
I don't believe Khan or Lot J is a save all. But I agree with Tacachale's comments. Welcome back to the environment of 1989.
Maybe I've over-estimated Jacksonville's potential.
No. But you may have over estimated Oklahoma City's potential without the Thunder.
It's more about the stadium than the Jaguars itself. Before you get into anything else, the 9 Jags games, the FLA-GA game and the Gator Bowl bring circa 600k people a year to the downtown area. I fail to see how that volume of people is replaced. Jacksonville's assets otherwise to leisurely visitors also are the beaches and golf so outwith major events at the stadium visitors are not coming to Jacksonville and going Downtown.
The Landing is dead and the immediate area around it is dead and has hardly benefitted from losing the competition. Time people refocused efforts elsewhere in the city instead of trying to pigeon hole desperately onto the core when really there isn't the appetite for it.
Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are where it is at. Time will tell if these succeed or fail, but the core has consistently failed. And I'm willing to hedge my bets with the Sports Complex considering it has billionaire backing and the success of all the other sports/events anchored districts that have popped up around the country in the last decade or so. In a car centric city like this few people are going to travel from the Southside for example when you have SJTC simply to go downtown for dinner or drinks and nothing else. That's why having these projects close to stadiums and event venues which will bring people from suburban areas who ordinarily would not visit works.
Or we could put a stop to it all, get rid of them all and become Wichita or Des Moines.
Quote from: minder on December 21, 2019, 05:42:40 AM
It's more about the stadium than the Jaguars itself. Before you get into anything else, the 9 Jags games, the FLA-GA game and the Gator Bowl bring circa 600k people a year to the downtown area. I fail to see how that volume of people is replaced. Jacksonville's assets otherwise to leisurely visitors also are the beaches and golf so outwith major events at the stadium visitors are not coming to Jacksonville and going Downtown.
The Landing is dead and the immediate area around it is dead and has hardly benefitted from losing the competition. Time people refocused efforts elsewhere in the city instead of trying to pigeon hole desperately onto the core when really there isn't the appetite for it.
Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are where it is at. Time will tell if these succeed or fail, but the core has consistently failed. And I'm willing to hedge my bets with the Sports Complex considering it has billionaire backing and the success of all the other sports/events anchored districts that have popped up around the country in the last decade or so. In a car centric city like this few people are going to travel from the Southside for example when you have SJTC simply to go downtown for dinner or drinks and nothing else. That's why having these projects close to stadiums and event venues which will bring people from suburban areas who ordinarily would not visit works.
Or we could put a stop to it all, get rid of them all and become Wichita or Des Moines.
How many of the people who attend Jaguars games come from outside the Jacksonville MSA or whatever? Just curious. Obviously it makes sense that the Gator Bowl would attract out-of-towners, as would the FL-GA game. I assume that the NFL games do attract some out-of-town visitors to support the visiting team.
The key (to me, at least) is to attract local people downtown on a regular basis - not just have them drive in for a game and then drive out. I don't see Jacksonville managing that sort of thing until they get serious development dowtown (restaurants, shopping, etc). And I don't see anything sustainable being developed downtown without a local population to support it.
Quote from: jaxjags on December 21, 2019, 12:14:41 AM
No. But you may have over estimated Oklahoma City's potential without the Thunder.
MAPS started in 1994. The Thunder didn't move to OKC until 2008.
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 11:18:18 PM
Maybe I've over-estimated Jacksonville's potential.
It's more that you started with a hypothetical premise - that Jax would be better off without the Jags and more able to play up its other assets - that few others agreed with.
Quote from: minder on December 21, 2019, 05:42:40 AM
It's more about the stadium than the Jaguars itself. Before you get into anything else, the 9 Jags games, the FLA-GA game and the Gator Bowl bring circa 600k people a year to the downtown area. I fail to see how that volume of people is replaced. Jacksonville's assets otherwise to leisurely visitors also are the beaches and golf so outwith major events at the stadium visitors are not coming to Jacksonville and going Downtown.
The Landing is dead and the immediate area around it is dead and has hardly benefitted from losing the competition. Time people refocused efforts elsewhere in the city instead of trying to pigeon hole desperately onto the core when really there isn't the appetite for it.
Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are where it is at. Time will tell if these succeed or fail, but the core has consistently failed. And I'm willing to hedge my bets with the Sports Complex considering it has billionaire backing and the success of all the other sports/events anchored districts that have popped up around the country in the last decade or so. In a car centric city like this few people are going to travel from the Southside for example when you have SJTC simply to go downtown for dinner or drinks and nothing else. That's why having these projects close to stadiums and event venues which will bring people from suburban areas who ordinarily would not visit works.
Or we could put a stop to it all, get rid of them all and become Wichita or Des Moines.
The condition of the core has more to do with weak policy and a habit of using Downtown incentives to micromanage what happens there than there being an "appetite" for it. The success or failure of the core also doesn't depend on pulling in suburbanites away from the mall. There are plenty of people in the Urban Core and elsewhere who would certainly frequent Downtown if we could get out of our own way and let it become more vibrant. The fact that downtown apartments are consistently full and that Downtown does have successful businesses even in its current state is proof of that.
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 10:32:51 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on December 20, 2019, 08:17:48 PM
How is it possible to "have an attribute" that doesn't exist?
Try reading it again.
How can you have a "thing" that doesn't exist? As far as downtown goes, cleaning out city hall, a halt to demolishing perfectly good structures and turning them into vacant lots, and First Baptist leaving will be a good start to it's revival.
Quote from: Snaketoz on December 21, 2019, 10:51:15 AM
Quote from: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 10:32:51 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on December 20, 2019, 08:17:48 PM
How is it possible to "have an attribute" that doesn't exist?
Try reading it again.
How can you have a "thing" that doesn't exist? As far as downtown goes, cleaning out city hall, a halt to demolishing perfectly good structures and turning them into vacant lots, and First Baptist leaving will be a good start to it's revival.
Really? Try reading it again, but slower this time.
You know - never mind. Just let me give you an example. Florida Music Hall of Fame. Doesn't exist. Should exist in downtown Jax. That is how something that doesn't exist - should.
^Why should it exist in DT Jax and not Miami, Orlando or some other Florida city? I'm not making a case either way but I'm interested in reading your opinion.
If we had a Florida Music Hall of Fame, that would be an attribute or thing. If I were a mayor in Jacksonville I would start with improving the morale and general feeling that our citizens feel about our city. I think coming up with a plan to pep up people already here is the way to go. Why do we woo visitors to town when our own people think we're inferior? Why do so many people drive to Orlando to fly?
Why can't we get competitive airfares? What can we do to improve air service? Why do most of the better concerts go to smaller, nearby towns? Attract more Canadians-we have a lot to offer if we had the infrastructure. They bring in a lot of money with very little demand for services like more schools. Speaking of schools.... Do more to promote our medical facilities to those in Latin America. Quit spending money on crap like shot spotter and get more police on the streets. Our crime reputation is horrible. Stop tearing down our city. Get rid of the rednecks on city council, the entire board of JEA that is over paid with redundant responsibilities that assure that nobody is responsible for anything. Elect a progressive mayor that will do even a few of the above.
Quote from: Snaketoz on December 22, 2019, 08:39:07 AMIf I were a mayor in Jacksonville I would start with improving the morale and general feeling that our citizens feel about our city. I think coming up with a plan to pep up people already here is the way to go. Why do we woo visitors to town when our own people think we're inferior?
Do you guys think the inferiority complex is still a significant thing?
We're obviously still underachieving in terms of downtown development, crime prevention, mass transportation, parks, and education, but I just don't feel the insecurity on the streets like I did even 10 years ago.
It was
bad in the early 2000s when I moved here, and in many ways, deservedly so.
But Jacksonville has had a hell of a post-recession boom. Our population has showed some of the highest growth in the nation, at a time when many cities are losing population. Retailers like IKEA, Whole Foods, Nordstrom, Trader Joe's, Apple, Tesla, Tiffany, Top Golf, etc. have flocked to Jacksonville at a breakneck pace, "legitimizing" Jacksonville as an economic powerhouse, for lack of a better term.
We've gone from a city of vanilla, anywhere-USA American-style chain restaurants to a city just
teeming with exciting, diverse, packed local restaurants. Cool local breweries have popped up all over the city. Nightlife is night and day, even if we'll never be South Beach. UNF has made incredible gains. Daily's Place opened up and the Taylor Swifts, Arianna Grande's, and Justin Bieber's of the world are regularly stopping in Jax now, rather than going straight to Orlando. Unemployment is at record lows. Young graduates are choosing Jacksonville rather than fleeing Jacksonville. Jumbo Shrimp are setting attendance records, hockey is back, we're talking about a permanent stadium for the Armada.
And even though the Jags - the namesake of this thread - have self-destructed on the field, I just don't think you can overstate how important they are to civic pride and how much that last run of theirs contributed to getting Jacksonville further past the inferiority complex. Duval Till We Die, Duuuuvalll etc were all organic movements originating around our NFL franchise but spilling out into all other aspects of civic life in Jacksonville.
Do we have a long way to go to live up to our potential? Sure. Are locals hanging their head in inferiority and embarrassed to tell people where they live? I kinda think we've shed that in the 2010s.
Imagine how great the 2020s will be if we actually get our shit together on some of this other stuff and actually get City Hall rowing with the current, instead of against it.
It's great to read your upbeat take on J-ville, Ken. I've always been pro Jax. I think you're right in most of your points, but whenever I meet newcomers to our area I still get, I love the weather and the friendliness, but I wish... The biggest obstacle to improving is the old way of thinking about things. When we were smellier, the old timers said, "that's the smell of money". Pollute all you want, as long as we get paychecks. We have so many things that we could use to make our area great. Let's have a large cruise ship terminal, we pay huge amounts of money to get companies to locate here. Why not subsidize an airline to get non-stops to the west coast and Toronto? Canadians are an under used people who mostly speak English, have good incomes, and would love to cut their travel time to reach a cruise terminal or warm weather, golf, etc. Start medical tourism. Have things for people who come here for medical treatment to do. We are so under achieving. Let's allow more outside opinions to be considered, not just the good ole boys'.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 22, 2019, 07:25:16 AM
^Why should it exist in DT Jax and not Miami, Orlando or some other Florida city? I'm not making a case either way but I'm interested in reading your opinion.
There is no reason it should have to be in Jax or downtown. We can't claim we are the center of the Florida music history, but neither can any other city in Florida. So why should it be in downtown Jax? Really for no more reason than I thought it up and I live here. If I still lived in Tampa I would argue for it to be there.
Excellent post Ken. That's exactly the way that I feel.
This thread is ridiculous. Downtown Jacksonville suffers from poor vision or lack of vision. No plans in place and when plans are in place the city doesn't follow through. The city continues to demolish and allow structures to be built that dont follow their own design review. How can 45 thousands plus being downtown 7 to 8 times a year be bad for downtown? Money made from parking, gear , tailgating and the Jaguar organization donates a lot of money to local charities. Who fills that void if they leave. Could the city survive without the Jaguars? Of course they could. The reason Jax is not further along than it should be is because the people in charge over the last few decades have hindered the process.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on December 22, 2019, 11:56:00 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on December 22, 2019, 08:39:07 AMIf I were a mayor in Jacksonville I would start with improving the morale and general feeling that our citizens feel about our city. I think coming up with a plan to pep up people already here is the way to go. Why do we woo visitors to town when our own people think we're inferior?
Do you guys think the inferiority complex is still a significant thing?
We're obviously still underachieving in terms of downtown development, crime prevention, mass transportation, parks, and education, but I just don't feel the insecurity on the streets like I did even 10 years ago.
It was bad in the early 2000s when I moved here, and in many ways, deservedly so.
But Jacksonville has had a hell of a post-recession boom. Our population has showed some of the highest growth in the nation, at a time when many cities are losing population. Retailers like IKEA, Whole Foods, Nordstrom, Trader Joe's, Apple, Tesla, Tiffany, Top Golf, etc. have flocked to Jacksonville at a breakneck pace, "legitimizing" Jacksonville as an economic powerhouse, for lack of a better term.
We've gone from a city of vanilla, anywhere-USA American-style chain restaurants to a city just teeming with exciting, diverse, packed local restaurants. Cool local breweries have popped up all over the city. Nightlife is night and day, even if we'll never be South Beach. UNF has made incredible gains. Daily's Place opened up and the Taylor Swifts, Arianna Grande's, and Justin Bieber's of the world are regularly stopping in Jax now, rather than going straight to Orlando. Unemployment is at record lows. Young graduates are choosing Jacksonville rather than fleeing Jacksonville. Jumbo Shrimp are setting attendance records, hockey is back, we're talking about a permanent stadium for the Armada.
And even though the Jags - the namesake of this thread - have self-destructed on the field, I just don't think you can overstate how important they are to civic pride and how much that last run of theirs contributed to getting Jacksonville further past the inferiority complex. Duval Till We Die, Duuuuvalll etc were all organic movements originating around our NFL franchise but spilling out into all other aspects of civic life in Jacksonville.
Do we have a long way to go to live up to our potential? Sure. Are locals hanging their head in inferiority and embarrassed to tell people where they live? I kinda think we've shed that in the 2010s.
Imagine how great the 2020s will be if we actually get our shit together on some of this other stuff and actually get City Hall rowing with the current, instead of against it.
Totally agree. This was my point to Kerry about Oklahoma City and the Thunder. When I first lived here in 1989, civic pride was low. Perception of the city was not high. It was the papermill in the air city.
I doubt people in Oklahoma city sit around and talk about zoning and public financing in a bar. Bet they talk about the Thunder and NBA.
The Jaguars help put the city on the map. DT has lagged, but the city as a whole, as well as the metro area is not recognizable compared to 1989.
Perhaps things would continue to grow with a major league sports team, but I for one would not want to take a chance.
Lot's has changed for the better
Quote from: Kerry on December 22, 2019, 06:11:48 PM
There is no reason it should have to be in Jax or downtown. We can't claim we are the center of the Florida music history, but neither can any other city in Florida. So why should it be in downtown Jax? Really for no more reason than I thought it up and I live here. If I still lived in Tampa I would argue for it to be there.
The type of Hame of Fame that I often hear most people mention concerning Jax isn't a "Florida Music Hall of Fame" (like mentioned earlier) but a "Southern Rock Hall of Fame" something that is unique to Jax within Florida.
Quote from: I-10east on December 27, 2019, 01:04:14 AM
Quote from: Kerry on December 22, 2019, 06:11:48 PM
There is no reason it should have to be in Jax or downtown. We can't claim we are the center of the Florida music history, but neither can any other city in Florida. So why should it be in downtown Jax? Really for no more reason than I thought it up and I live here. If I still lived in Tampa I would argue for it to be there.
The type of Hame of Fame that I often hear most people mention concerning Jax isn't a "Florida Music Hall of Fame" (like mentioned earlier) but a "Southern Rock Hall of Fame" something that is unique to Jax within Florida.
Macon, GA already has it.
Quote from: Kerry on December 27, 2019, 09:54:46 AM
Quote from: I-10east on December 27, 2019, 01:04:14 AM
Quote from: Kerry on December 22, 2019, 06:11:48 PM
There is no reason it should have to be in Jax or downtown. We can't claim we are the center of the Florida music history, but neither can any other city in Florida. So why should it be in downtown Jax? Really for no more reason than I thought it up and I live here. If I still lived in Tampa I would argue for it to be there.
The type of Hame of Fame that I often hear most people mention concerning Jax isn't a "Florida Music Hall of Fame" (like mentioned earlier) but a "Southern Rock Hall of Fame" something that is unique to Jax within Florida.
Macon, GA already has it.
No it doesn't. It has the Allman Brothers Museum.
Quote from: Kerry on December 27, 2019, 09:54:46 AM
Quote from: I-10east on December 27, 2019, 01:04:14 AM
Quote from: Kerry on December 22, 2019, 06:11:48 PM
There is no reason it should have to be in Jax or downtown. We can't claim we are the center of the Florida music history, but neither can any other city in Florida. So why should it be in downtown Jax? Really for no more reason than I thought it up and I live here. If I still lived in Tampa I would argue for it to be there.
The type of Hame of Fame that I often hear most people mention concerning Jax isn't a "Florida Music Hall of Fame" (like mentioned earlier) but a "Southern Rock Hall of Fame" something that is unique to Jax within Florida.
Macon, GA already has it.
No, it most certainly does not.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/southern-rock-pilgrimage-the-allman-brothers-big-house/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/southern-rock-pilgrimage-the-allman-brothers-big-house/)
The home where the Allman Brothers lived for three years has been preserved as a museum for the band's legacy to Southern Rock. Additionally, Mercer University has renovated the former Capricorn Studios building as part of a larger complex featuring a music incubator space and some residential lofts that will formally open next month.
There is a group locally that is seeking to establish a similar musical academy in the urban core.
Macon had a Georgia Music Hall of Fame. It opened in 1996 but closed from lack of attendance in 2011.
Could have swore I read recently that they were going to Macon, but I would be happy with it here. This is the kind of stuff the City should be spending tourism dollars on.
https://m.facebook.com/southernrockhall/
https://michaelbuffalo.net/southern_rock_hall_of_fame