I was spending a little time looking at urban developments in other cities and found this web site highlighting some of the development taking place in Greenville, mostly downtown and downtown adjacent. Very impressive. I first went to Greenville back in April and have been back a few times since. I was blown away how nice it is. Downtown shopping is vibrant, plenty of outdoor dining options, ample number of hotels, impressive parks, active night-life, bike share system, and a very lively public realm.
https://upstatebusinessjournal.com/the-top-21-cre-projects-in-greenville/
Greenville's growth is insane the last few years.
Went there for work and was talking with a few locals last June and they said in the last 5 years, it's changed so much. One pointed out that some of the success has to do with how big Atlanta has grown that Greenville has benefited. But overall, the city has done a great job of master planning to ensure everywhere in downtown interweaves with each other.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on October 21, 2019, 02:02:31 PM
Greenville's growth is insane the last few years.
Went there for work and was talking with a few locals last June and they said in the last 5 years, it's changed so much. One pointed out that some of the success has to do with how big Atlanta has grown that Greenville has benefited. But overall, the city has done a great job of master planning to ensure everywhere in downtown interweaves with each other.
As near as I can tell, Greenville benefits from 3 primary components.
Relative location: situated centrally between Atlanta and Charlotte with easy access to Smokey Mountains, Ashville, Columbia, and Charleston.
Natural Beauty: Downtown has a beautiful waterfall/river and the surrounding area is very scenic with many South and North Carolina state parks near by as well as the Blue Ridge Mountains.
Civic Leadership: It take more than location and beauty, it take a civic leadership that can exploit the natural assets and combine them with good urban design and placemaking. Greenville gets an A+ in this category.
I can't speak for the business community but it seems they have bought into a vibrant city center and played their part. Not saying they don't exist but I don't remember seeing large office parks in the suburban fringe like Jax has at Butler Blvd, Gate Parkway, and around the Avenues.
Quote from: Kerry on October 21, 2019, 02:18:05 PM
Civic Leadership: It take more than location and beauty, it take a civic leadership that can exploit the natural assets and combine them with good urban design and placemaking. Greenville gets an A+ in this category.
I agree here. Greenville has done an excellent job in this category with its downtown area.
QuoteI can't speak for the business community but it seems they have bought into a vibrant city center and played their part. Not saying they don't exist but I don't remember seeing large office parks in the suburban fringe like Jax has at Butler Blvd, Gate Parkway, and around the Avenues.
They exist. As a whole, it's a pretty sprawly, low density community. Just take a look at Google Earth and streetview a couple of places outside of the core of the city if you're not familiar with them. Pretty much everything along I-385, I-185 and I-85 is the same type of sprawl you'll find in most of the country.
I grew up in Spartanburg, Greenville's "twin city." It's the underachieving twin, I can tell you that.
Greenville is special, It seems to have gotten most everything right.
Spartanburg is just OK, but still a very nice small Southern city. That part of SC is really pretty, year round.
When I visited Greenville recently, I noted that, unlike Jacksonville, they have renovated/repurposed many of their historic structures, built an active and accessible street-scape with unbroken rows of retail and restaurants, maximized green space on their waterfront and optimized using the waterfront as an attraction and focal point. Considering their waterfront is mainly a mountain stream, they have done amazing things to get the most out of it. The green space actually runs for quite a distance beyond the downtown creating their own version of an Emerald Trail. Looks like they also run a free trolley up and down the main street.
Notably absent: Any mega-projects like Shad's Lot J or Shipyards, an NFL stadium, autonomous vehicles running on a former Skyway track, acres of vacant lots or mega garages on every corner 8).
Imagine what Jax would be like if we turned it over to the leadership in Greenville.
Quote from: MusicMan on October 21, 2019, 05:24:55 PM
I grew up in Spartanburg, Greenville's "twin city." It's the underachieving twin, I can tell you that.
Greenville is special, It seems to have gotten most everything right.
Spartanburg is just OK, but still a very nice small Southern city. That part of SC is really pretty, year round.
Not sure how long it has been since you were there, but Spartanburg has made a lot of strides in the last ten years and especially the last five. The old Montgomery building which is Spartanburg's version of the Laura Trio has been completely renovated now. There is a new AC Hotel that is the 'counter tower' to the Denny's building. Lots of other base hits as well. They have created some impressive trails systems too.
QuoteImagine what Jax would be like if we turned it over to the leadership in Greenville.
That is EXACTLY what the difference is.
It isn't consolidation or any other lame excuse. We have had the same mayor for 24 years and he is running unopposed again in two weeks for another term. He was mentored in high school by the mayor that created the plan that initiated the transformation in DT Greenville. He has none of the powers Curry has, as he is just one of seven votes on council. He can't veto anything and he can't appoint anyone to anything by himself. But he doesn't lead by brute force and legislated power like #CorruptCurry. He explains the vision, gets buy in and executes. He will take a tough vote when required, but mostly can get a broad consensus at decision time. He is well connected with the business community and they trust him. He understands urban design, but is approachable and can break out the benefits for those less knowledgeable. Private-Public Partnership are common for big projects but public money is only spent on public assets like plazas and garages. Continuity is also present at the city staff level. The Economic Development head has been at the helm close to 30 years. She could easily have left for a bigger pond but has made her career in Greenville.
There is a Master Plan and Design Guidelines and they are updated regularly and they aren't just window dressing. Party politics and patronage are not present to gum up the works either, even though council is elected by party.
Quote from: vicupstate on October 22, 2019, 11:02:34 AM
QuoteImagine what Jax would be like if we turned it over to the leadership in Greenville.
That is EXACTLY what the difference is.
It isn't consolidation or any other lame excuse. We have had the same mayor for 24 years and he is running unopposed again in two weeks for another term. He was mentored in high school by the mayor that created the plan that initiated the transformation in DT Greenville. He has none of the powers Curry has, as he is just one of seven votes on council. He can't veto anything and he can't appoint anyone to anything by himself. But he doesn't lead by brute force and legislated power like #CorruptCurry. He explains the vision, gets buy in and executes. He will take a tough vote when required, but mostly can get a broad consensus at decision time. He is well connected with the business community and they trust him. He understands urban design, but is approachable and can break out the benefits for those less knowledgeable. Private-Public Partnership are common for big projects but public money is only spent on public assets like plazas and garages. Continuity is also present at the city staff level. The Economic Development head has been at the helm close to 30 years. She could easily have left for a bigger pond but has made her career in Greenville.
There is a Master Plan and Design Guidelines and they are updated regularly and they aren't just window dressing. Party politics and patronage are not present to gum up the works either, even though council is elected by party.
Consolidation is the exact reason why we don't have a local government structure that makes this possible here. News4Jax has had several segments on it lately.
^^ Then explain Charlotte, Nashville, Indianapolis.
Believe it or not, JAX wasn't that far behind those cities in the late '90's. Mayor Delaney wasn't perfect and there was still too much demolition, but a lot of things were going right DT. There was some serious momentum. Then the recession hit and stalled out the momentum. Then the mayors that followed had no real interest or competence in the subject matter or in leadership generally. Brown seemed to try but was a bit naive and was totally incapacitated by the Republican Mafia.
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 02:54:42 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on October 22, 2019, 11:02:34 AM
QuoteImagine what Jax would be like if we turned it over to the leadership in Greenville.
That is EXACTLY what the difference is.
It isn't consolidation or any other lame excuse. We have had the same mayor for 24 years and he is running unopposed again in two weeks for another term. He was mentored in high school by the mayor that created the plan that initiated the transformation in DT Greenville. He has none of the powers Curry has, as he is just one of seven votes on council. He can't veto anything and he can't appoint anyone to anything by himself. But he doesn't lead by brute force and legislated power like #CorruptCurry. He explains the vision, gets buy in and executes. He will take a tough vote when required, but mostly can get a broad consensus at decision time. He is well connected with the business community and they trust him. He understands urban design, but is approachable and can break out the benefits for those less knowledgeable. Private-Public Partnership are common for big projects but public money is only spent on public assets like plazas and garages. Continuity is also present at the city staff level. The Economic Development head has been at the helm close to 30 years. She could easily have left for a bigger pond but has made her career in Greenville.
There is a Master Plan and Design Guidelines and they are updated regularly and they aren't just window dressing. Party politics and patronage are not present to gum up the works either, even though council is elected by party.
Consolidation is the exact reason why we don't have a local government structure that makes this possible here. News4Jax has had several segments on it lately.
Consolidation is the reason we don't have a government structure like the Central Florida cities that annexed high growth suburban land while leaving out distressed areas, or like Miami, which has a two tiered government that involves a county mayor that's more powerful than the city mayor, or like Orlando which has a combination of the two. There are plenty of consolidated cities with thriving downtowns - everything from Indianapolis to Nashville to New York. I don't know what News4Jax is really saying, but if they're blaming consolidation for Downtown's woes, they're wrong.
So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?
I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.
Quote from: Tacachale on October 22, 2019, 03:55:39 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?
I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.
I would agree with that. Continuity clearly played a part in Charleston's revival as well. One mayor from 1975 to 2015. As much as he was terrible as Governor, Pat McCrory was Charlotte's longest serving mayor ever (14 years) when it's DT morphed from an office park into a genuinely successful urban core.
All of that said, I believe if Matt Carllucci and Aubrey Moran had won their respective Mayor's races, JAX would be a lot further along in reviving its core.
Quote from: Tacachale on October 22, 2019, 03:55:39 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?
I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.
And you don't see those problems as a direct result of Consolidation?
Charlotte and Greenville both have City Managers.
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on October 22, 2019, 03:55:39 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?
I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.
And you don't see those problems as a direct result of Consolidation?
Charlotte and Greenville both have City Managers.
We have that role-it's called CAO. Lex Hester had that role for a million years before he passed away in the role. Sam Mousa took over for him (Mousa was his deputy if I remember right). Aside from Peyton pushing the guy out and Brown's just....weird....org), We've kept it.
Now, Curry appointed Brian Hughes into the role which is totally political.
Here's the difference-it isn't the role, it's the use of the role and the fact that Curry politicized a role that shouldn't be political. Not a fault of the structure.
I don't see how consolidation can be blamed for DT Jax's woes. If so, the majority of consolidated cities across the country should be suffering from similar issues with their CBDs. However, that's clearly not the case in this country. For every Jax, I can show you a Nashville or Philly. On the other hand, for every Greenville, I can show you a Macon or Youngstown.
Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2019, 05:10:16 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on October 22, 2019, 03:55:39 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?
I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.
And you don't see those problems as a direct result of Consolidation?
Charlotte and Greenville both have City Managers.
We have that role-it's called CAO. Lex Hester had that role for a million years before he passed away in the role. Sam Mousa took over for him (Mousa was his deputy if I remember right). Aside from Peyton pushing the guy out and Brown's just....weird....org), We've kept it.
Now, Curry appointed Brian Hughes into the role which is totally political.
Here's the difference-it isn't the role, it's the use of the role and the fact that Curry politicized a role that shouldn't be political. Not a fault of the structure.
You realize in a City Manager type government all those mayors couldn't have done that right? It would have taken a majority of the City Council to remove the City Manager. They Mayor would just be one vote.
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 05:51:42 PM
Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2019, 05:10:16 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on October 22, 2019, 03:55:39 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?
I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.
And you don't see those problems as a direct result of Consolidation?
Charlotte and Greenville both have City Managers.
We have that role-it's called CAO. Lex Hester had that role for a million years before he passed away in the role. Sam Mousa took over for him (Mousa was his deputy if I remember right). Aside from Peyton pushing the guy out and Brown's just....weird....org), We've kept it.
Now, Curry appointed Brian Hughes into the role which is totally political.
Here's the difference-it isn't the role, it's the use of the role and the fact that Curry politicized a role that shouldn't be political. Not a fault of the structure.
You realize in a City Manager type government all those mayors couldn't have done that right? It would have taken a majority of the City Council to remove the City Manager. They Mayor would just be one vote.
Depends on the city. In Miami, for instance, the city manager is appointed by the mayor and is effectively the same as Jax's CAO. There are also qualifications on Jax's CAO position. Those may be bypassed but there would be ways to do that if the council was appointing the manager. This also has nothing to do with consolidation.
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on October 22, 2019, 03:55:39 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2019, 03:38:13 PM
So if it isn't consolidation, what keeps Jax from having the necessary effective civic leadership to pull of what Greenville has?
I don't know that much about Greenville but I'd wager to say that the lack of follow through between administrations and weak leadership is the main thing that's holding (downtown) Jax back. Term limits, structural problems in the government, and party politics play into that.
And you don't see those problems as a direct result of Consolidation?
Charlotte and Greenville both have City Managers.
None of those problems are due to consolidation. Term limits were imposed because people were sick of corruption in the Burns era
before the city was consolidated. Party politics and structural issues also long predated consolidation. There are plenty of cities with strong mayor governments with vibrant downtowns. Nashville, Indianapolis and New York all have strong mayor governments as well as consolidation
I will suggest 4 significant things that have held Jax back over the decades...
(1) As the saying goes, "follow the money..." Jax leaders regularly act beholden to big money donors (taken to unprecedented levels by the Curry administration) whose interests generally prioritize what lines their pockets over all else. Any alignment with the interests of the overall population is mostly coincidental or a mere token/bone thrown to the community.
This starts with the developers/builders/contractors/associated professions (e.g. engineers, consultants, architects, real estate attorneys, professional services, etc.) in this city. If you look at campaign donor lists, by both numbers and dollars, they dominate. This gives us "low taxes" to encourage growth on the cheap, urban sprawl, road building over mass transit, expedited building (feeds into demolitions over historic preservation and re-purposing), lousy zoning and land use decisions, destruction of green spaces and our unique environment and so much more while all the while draining resources from "quality of life" investments such as social services, education, public safety, parks and recreation, mass transit, upkeep of existing infrastructure and other concerns of the general citizenry.
(2) Layer on top of this the generally much more-conservative-than-average populace, often propelled by likewise conservative religious and political beliefs, and you get leadership that shies away from most things progressive or disruptive to the status quo. This heritage has been ingrained at least back to the early 1900's when Jax leaders ran off the "scandalous" movie industry and lives on, to some degree, to this day as witnessed in the fight over a relatively toothless human rights ordinance. (Another small example from over the years: In the early 1980's, Jax leaders wanted to remove from the Times Union Center [then, the Civic Auditorium] marquee the word "whorehouse" in the hit Broadway show "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas," finding it too offensive. Only the threat of litigation forced them to back down.)
(3) Next, Jax leadership has fed off of, and maybe contributed to, a spirit of civic inferiority in showing a lack of confidence in, and putting at the forefront, the natural and man-made attributes of our City. This has led to leadership chasing the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that mostly turns out to be one illusion after another. This sucks resources, attention and energy from the pursuit of much more realistic projects that could cumulatively do much more to advance our City. Failed, or yet to be proven, mega-project "saviors" of the City have included Offshore Power Systems, the Skyway, the Shipyards, Lot J, the Osborn Convention Center, La Villa redevelopment, the current county courthouse, Better Jacksonville/River City Renaissance Plans, the Jacksonville Landing, getting an NFL team, getting the return of nuclear aircraft carriers to Mayport, saving the Florida-Georgia game, recruiting to the extreme some "game-changing" company to the City, opening up new areas for development (e.g. the northside by building the Dames Point Bridge), building JIA and now dredging the port, etc. While all of these, to varying degrees, may have had some positive effects, none of them have delivered in propelling us beyond, putting Jacksonville on par, or even preventing us from falling further behind, the likes of Charlotte, Nashville, Orlando, Tampa, Ft. Lauderdale or, possibly, some other up and coming communities such as Greenville, Savannah, Charleston, Columbia, West Palm Beach, Raleigh/Durham, Asheville, etc.
(4) Finally, Jax leadership has failed to consistently and properly support, invest and prioritize educational opportunities from K to college. We had the unprecedented dis-accreditation of our entire school system in 1964. We were the last major city in Florida to get a 4 year public university and didn't have a community college until 1968. We still lack significant and heavy duty graduate schools in many major professions. And, today, we continue to under-invest with the refusal to even put a referendum on the ballot supporting enhancing our schools. Aside from making us less attractive to national corporate and individual prospects, we are driving our locals into the surrounding counties debasing our own.
All of the above is not to take away from the occasional Jacksonville success stories or sporadic well-meaning efforts of some over the years or currently, but it does summarize the prevailing winds over Jacksonville for most of the last many decades that have held us back.
This City has amazing natural assets (the beach, river, intracoastal waterway, climate, location, landscape, wildlife, etc.), good and talented people, a diversified economy, a decent quality of life and a favorable cost of living. When one checks off these boxes, only a lack of great leadership could screw things up. Case closed 8).
^^^ Very well said Jaxlongtimer. Can't disagree with a word of it.
I am in agreement with Tacachale with one small exception. Corruption and cronyism existed in spades before consolidation but it was a one party city at the time, so you can't say Party politics were the issue.
The City Manager is a administrator that takes and implements the orders of the elected leadership. The vision comes from the from the mayor and council, the city manager makes sure the trains run on time. While Greenville has had the same mayor for 24 years there have been at least four or more city managers in that time, not including the interim ones during the transitions. Some left by force and some by choice.
JaxLongTimer - I agree with your list, but it is my opinion that those issue are enabled by consolidation. What if instead of consolidation, Duval County had 20 individual municipalities? Khan would have a very hard time convincing the City of Mandarin to fund Lot J in Jacksonville.
Quote from: Kerry on October 23, 2019, 12:06:19 PM
JaxLongTimer - I agree with your list, but it is my opinion that those issue are enabled by consolidation. What if instead of consolidation, Duval County had 20 individual municipalities? Khan would have a very hard time convincing the City of Mandarin to fund Lot J in Jacksonville.
Yes, the city is less incentivised to consolidate its efforts to a strong urban core due to the consolidation of the city.
What do you propose, we deconsolidate the county/city? Great, then we have NO money from the developments sprawling around Jax (a problem not at all unique to Jax) and then the City of St Johns Town Center Inc. winds up with hella cash, and the majority of the community loses out on the sprawl dollars.
Quote from: Kerry on October 23, 2019, 12:06:19 PM
What if instead of consolidation, Duval County had 20 individual municipalities? Khan would have a very hard time convincing the City of Mandarin to fund Lot J in Jacksonville.
Atlanta is doing it's best to do this now with cities like Sandy Springs, Brookhaven, etc. Not exactly the same because Atlanta is not consolidated and already has the political challenges of being a city that has to deal with two county governments.
Personally, I think consolidation is a good thing. But, I could listen to an argument about urban development suffering because of it.
Example Argument: Economic Development agency is selling Jacksonville to a company. Pre-Consolidation they'd take them everywhere in the City Limits to relocate, Post-Consolidation they take them everywhere in the county to relocate.
Counter Argument: Sometimes companies relocate to metro areas and don't relocate inside the city limits. An example of this is UPS, who moved in the early 1990's to Metro Atlanta and while they have an Atlanta Mailing Address for their HQ, the location is not in the Atlanta city limits (and is one of the most heinous-looking HQ buildings of any major company).
Counter Argument #2: Consolidation can help the city in cases where much of the money is outside of the city limits. For example, in the 1960's while most people worked in the city, most of the "money"/"power" did not live in the city.
The Point: We can use consolidation as an excuse but it's just that - an excuse. I truly believe that Downtown can be successful with consolidation and our current government structure.
Quote from: Steve on October 23, 2019, 12:37:46 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 23, 2019, 12:06:19 PM
What if instead of consolidation, Duval County had 20 individual municipalities? Khan would have a very hard time convincing the City of Mandarin to fund Lot J in Jacksonville.
Atlanta is doing it's best to do this now with cities like Sandy Springs, Brookhaven, etc. Not exactly the same because Atlanta is not consolidated and already has the political challenges of being a city that has to deal with two county governments.
Personally, I think consolidation is a good thing. But, I could listen to an argument about urban development suffering because of it.
Example Argument: Economic Development agency is selling Jacksonville to a company. Pre-Consolidation they'd take them everywhere in the City Limits to relocate, Post-Consolidation they take them everywhere in the county to relocate.
Counter Argument: Sometimes companies relocate to metro areas and don't relocate inside the city limits. An example of this is UPS, who moved in the early 1990's to Metro Atlanta and while they have an Atlanta Mailing Address for their HQ, the location is not in the Atlanta city limits (and is one of the most heinous-looking HQ buildings of any major company).
Counter Argument #2: Consolidation can help the city in cases where much of the money is outside of the city limits. For example, in the 1960's while most people worked in the city, most of the "money"/"power" did not live in the city.
The Point: We can use consolidation as an excuse but it's just that - an excuse. I truly believe that Downtown can be successful with consolidation and our current government structure.
The dilemma you described is solved through tax revenue sharing. Several major cities do this and it prevents companies (usually retailers) from pitting suburbs against each other. For sake of argument lets say there are 20 municipalities in Jax and Big Boy Retailer is looking for a Jax location. They would go to each municipality and negotiate the best incentive package they could. With a sales tax sharing agreements the local municipalities would have no incentive to bid against each other (aka - a race to the bottom). Big Boy Retailer could locate in the City of Mandarin, the City of St Johns Town Center, the City of Durkeeville or the City of Jacksonville - it wouldn't matter to any of them from a tax revenue standpoint.
Where it would matter is quality of life. Individual towns would compete with each at the local level to increase their quality of life. They would all want their own business districts, unique attractions, quality parks, etc... In fact, watching the New4Jax stories regarding Consolidation the parks were a major issue with many parts of town feeling like they got short changes - which they did. Meanwhile, some parts of Jax seem to have benefited maybe more than they should have.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 22, 2019, 11:41:14 PM
I will suggest 4 significant things that have held Jax back over the decades...
This is well stated, but I'm going to push back on a few of these things.
Quote
(1) As the saying goes, "follow the money..." Jax leaders regularly act beholden to big money donors (taken to unprecedented levels by the Curry administration) whose interests generally prioritize what lines their pockets over all else. Any alignment with the interests of the overall population is mostly coincidental or a mere token/bone thrown to the community.
This starts with the developers/builders/contractors/associated professions (e.g. engineers, consultants, architects, real estate attorneys, professional services, etc.) in this city. If you look at campaign donor lists, by both numbers and dollars, they dominate. This gives us "low taxes" to encourage growth on the cheap, urban sprawl, road building over mass transit, expedited building (feeds into demolitions over historic preservation and re-purposing), lousy zoning and land use decisions, destruction of green spaces and our unique environment and so much more while all the while draining resources from "quality of life" investments such as social services, education, public safety, parks and recreation, mass transit, upkeep of existing infrastructure and other concerns of the general citizenry.
It's true that the donor class has a lot of influence, but I can't imagine this is a problem unique to Jax. The low tax economy and sprawl-driven development certainly aren't unique to Jax, as it's the status quo for all of Florida. It's also one of the main drivers of growth, for better or worse. That said, Jacksonville is more averse to raising taxes to get our heads above water than Florida's other big cities, and our developers largely haven't focused on urban development without incentives. But it's worth pointing out that last time taxes were raised, the donor class supported it and it was the mayor, who had fallen out of favor with them, who fought it.
Quote
(2) Layer on top of this the generally much more-conservative-than-average populace, often propelled by likewise conservative religious and political beliefs, and you get leadership that shies away from most things progressive or disruptive to the status quo. This heritage has been ingrained at least back to the early 1900's when Jax leaders ran off the "scandalous" movie industry and lives on, to some degree, to this day as witnessed in the fight over a relatively toothless human rights ordinance. (Another small example from over the years: In the early 1980's, Jax leaders wanted to remove from the Times Union Center [then, the Civic Auditorium] marquee the word "whorehouse" in the hit Broadway show "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas," finding it too offensive. Only the threat of litigation forced them to back down.)
This is a stereotype that was likely more true in the past than it is now, or will be in the future. The demographics and political leanings of the population are shifting as large chunks of the older, white populace move to the surrounding counties and Duval gains and retains more ethnic minorities and young people.
Jax has had different "factions" for as long as the city has been here. There's a highly conservative "faction", but the business community is much more moderate and has been for decades. There's also the African-American community which makes up a third of the city. Overall the city has been far more purple than it's given credit for years now.
Quote
(3) Next, Jax leadership has fed off of, and maybe contributed to, a spirit of civic inferiority in showing a lack of confidence in, and putting at the forefront, the natural and man-made attributes of our City. This has led to leadership chasing the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that mostly turns out to be one illusion after another. This sucks resources, attention and energy from the pursuit of much more realistic projects that could cumulatively do much more to advance our City. Failed, or yet to be proven, mega-project "saviors" of the City have included Offshore Power Systems, the Skyway, the Shipyards, Lot J, the Osborn Convention Center, La Villa redevelopment, the current county courthouse, Better Jacksonville/River City Renaissance Plans, the Jacksonville Landing, getting an NFL team, getting the return of nuclear aircraft carriers to Mayport, saving the Florida-Georgia game, recruiting to the extreme some "game-changing" company to the City, opening up new areas for development (e.g. the northside by building the Dames Point Bridge), building JIA and now dredging the port, etc. While all of these, to varying degrees, may have had some positive effects, none of them have delivered in propelling us beyond, putting Jacksonville on par, or even preventing us from falling further behind, the likes of Charlotte, Nashville, Orlando, Tampa, Ft. Lauderdale or, possibly, some other up and coming communities such as Greenville, Savannah, Charleston, Columbia, West Palm Beach, Raleigh/Durham, Asheville, etc.
I don't think this all follows. It's also not true that the city is doing as poorly as is sometimes presented by critics. The city and metro area have experienced consistent growth for, well, ever, and there are a lot of successes all over town. Downtown still struggles but it's not like the city overall is stagnant or moving backward in any real sense.
As you say, however, we put a lot of stake in one-trick ponies promised to take us to the "next level". But not everything you list is an example of that - some were never promised to be "saviors" and others really were "game changing". What we do have is a lack of consistency and followthrough after we have a successful project or plan. That's certainly the biggest reason Downtown struggles.
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(4) Finally, Jax leadership has failed to consistently and properly support, invest and prioritize educational opportunities from K to college. We had the unprecedented dis-accreditation of our entire school system in 1964. We were the last major city in Florida to get a 4 year public university and didn't have a community college until 1968. We still lack significant and heavy duty graduate schools in many major professions. And, today, we continue to under-invest with the refusal to even put a referendum on the ballot supporting enhancing our schools. Aside from making us less attractive to national corporate and individual prospects, we are driving our locals into the surrounding counties debasing our own.
This is patently true. Though most urban school districts in Florida (and elsewhere) underperform the suburban counties. This is also a major driver of Jacksonville's demographic changes.
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All of the above is not to take away from the occasional Jacksonville success stories or sporadic well-meaning efforts of some over the years or currently, but it does summarize the prevailing winds over Jacksonville for most of the last many decades that have held us back.
This City has amazing natural assets (the beach, river, intracoastal waterway, climate, location, landscape, wildlife, etc.), good and talented people, a diversified economy, a decent quality of life and a favorable cost of living. When one checks off these boxes, only a lack of great leadership could screw things up. Case closed 8).
Again, I wouldn't say we've been "held back". We're a much more vibrant, diverse and happening city than we were when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. What I would say is that this has often had to happen in spite of what the city government is doing, and the lack of consistency and good leadership has kept Downtown in the doldrums and prevented us from reaching the potential we might otherwise have reached.
Quote from: Steve on October 23, 2019, 12:37:46 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 23, 2019, 12:06:19 PM
What if instead of consolidation, Duval County had 20 individual municipalities? Khan would have a very hard time convincing the City of Mandarin to fund Lot J in Jacksonville.
Atlanta is doing it's best to do this now with cities like Sandy Springs, Brookhaven, etc. Not exactly the same because Atlanta is not consolidated and already has the political challenges of being a city that has to deal with two county governments.
Personally, I think consolidation is a good thing. But, I could listen to an argument about urban development suffering because of it.
Example Argument: Economic Development agency is selling Jacksonville to a company. Pre-Consolidation they'd take them everywhere in the City Limits to relocate, Post-Consolidation they take them everywhere in the county to relocate.
Counter Argument: Sometimes companies relocate to metro areas and don't relocate inside the city limits. An example of this is UPS, who moved in the early 1990's to Metro Atlanta and while they have an Atlanta Mailing Address for their HQ, the location is not in the Atlanta city limits (and is one of the most heinous-looking HQ buildings of any major company).
Counter Argument #2: Consolidation can help the city in cases where much of the money is outside of the city limits. For example, in the 1960's while most people worked in the city, most of the "money"/"power" did not live in the city.
The Point: We can use consolidation as an excuse but it's just that - an excuse. I truly believe that Downtown can be successful with consolidation and our current government structure.
Perhaps the biggest weaknesses of Consolidation are diluting the identity of the Urban Core. It's made it difficult to tell how much population the "old city" continued to lose, and made it much harder to implement projects that benefit the Urban Core as a unit. That plays some role in making progress slow in Downtown, but as has been pointed out repeatedly there are many consolidated cities with thriving downtowns, and non-consolidated cities with struggling downtowns.
Quote from: Kerry on October 23, 2019, 01:23:11 PM
Quote from: Steve on October 23, 2019, 12:37:46 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 23, 2019, 12:06:19 PM
What if instead of consolidation, Duval County had 20 individual municipalities? Khan would have a very hard time convincing the City of Mandarin to fund Lot J in Jacksonville.
Atlanta is doing it's best to do this now with cities like Sandy Springs, Brookhaven, etc. Not exactly the same because Atlanta is not consolidated and already has the political challenges of being a city that has to deal with two county governments.
Personally, I think consolidation is a good thing. But, I could listen to an argument about urban development suffering because of it.
Example Argument: Economic Development agency is selling Jacksonville to a company. Pre-Consolidation they'd take them everywhere in the City Limits to relocate, Post-Consolidation they take them everywhere in the county to relocate.
Counter Argument: Sometimes companies relocate to metro areas and don't relocate inside the city limits. An example of this is UPS, who moved in the early 1990's to Metro Atlanta and while they have an Atlanta Mailing Address for their HQ, the location is not in the Atlanta city limits (and is one of the most heinous-looking HQ buildings of any major company).
Counter Argument #2: Consolidation can help the city in cases where much of the money is outside of the city limits. For example, in the 1960's while most people worked in the city, most of the "money"/"power" did not live in the city.
The Point: We can use consolidation as an excuse but it's just that - an excuse. I truly believe that Downtown can be successful with consolidation and our current government structure.
The dilemma you described is solved through tax revenue sharing. Several major cities do this and it prevents companies (usually retailers) from pitting suburbs against each other. For sake of argument lets say there are 20 municipalities in Jax and Big Boy Retailer is looking for a Jax location. They would go to each municipality and negotiate the best incentive package they could. With a sales tax sharing agreements the local municipalities would have no incentive to bid against each other (aka - a race to the bottom). Big Boy Retailer could locate in the City of Mandarin, the City of St Johns Town Center, the City of Durkeeville or the City of Jacksonville - it wouldn't matter to any of them from a tax revenue standpoint.
Where it would matter is quality of life. Individual towns would compete with each at the local level to increase their quality of life. They would all want their own business districts, unique attractions, quality parks, etc... In fact, watching the New4Jax stories regarding Consolidation the parks were a major issue with many parts of town feeling like they got short changes - which they did. Meanwhile, some parts of Jax seem to have benefited maybe more than they should have.
I realize that the issue is solvable. That was really my point: "I truly believe that Downtown can be successful with consolidation and our current government structure."
Quote from: Tacachale on October 23, 2019, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 22, 2019, 11:41:14 PM
I will suggest 4 significant things that have held Jax back over the decades...
This is well stated, but I'm going to push back on a few of these things.
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(1) As the saying goes, "follow the money..." Jax leaders regularly act beholden to big money donors (taken to unprecedented levels by the Curry administration) whose interests generally prioritize what lines their pockets over all else. Any alignment with the interests of the overall population is mostly coincidental or a mere token/bone thrown to the community.
This starts with the developers/builders/contractors/associated professions (e.g. engineers, consultants, architects, real estate attorneys, professional services, etc.) in this city. If you look at campaign donor lists, by both numbers and dollars, they dominate. This gives us "low taxes" to encourage growth on the cheap, urban sprawl, road building over mass transit, expedited building (feeds into demolitions over historic preservation and re-purposing), lousy zoning and land use decisions, destruction of green spaces and our unique environment and so much more while all the while draining resources from "quality of life" investments such as social services, education, public safety, parks and recreation, mass transit, upkeep of existing infrastructure and other concerns of the general citizenry.
It's true that the donor class has a lot of influence, but I can't imagine this is a problem unique to Jax. The low tax economy and sprawl-driven development certainly aren't unique to Jax, as it's the status quo for all of Florida. It's also one of the main drivers of growth, for better or worse. That said, Jacksonville is more averse to raising taxes to get our heads above water than Florida's other big cities, and our developers largely haven't focused on urban development without incentives. But it's worth pointing out that last time taxes were raised, the donor class supported it and it was the mayor, who had fallen out of favor with them, who fought it.
Tacachale, appreciate your measured response. I will respond accordingly 8).
It's not about the donor class being unique to Jax. It's about the compounding of decades of undue influence, the degree of influence and the consequences of same.
If the donor class supported raising taxes, we would not have had recent mayors refusing to do so, Curry being the most steadfast of all of them (i.e. the trend has been worsening). There were actually years when taxes were cut. Where was the donor class you speak of then? Do you see the Civic Council publicly pushing Curry to raise taxes as our City's infrastructure is literally crumbling (e.g. poorly maintained parks, road potholes proliferating, resiliency and drainage projects sidelined) right before our eyes? Did the donor class push Curry to approve the School Board referendum or push for a small increase in today's real estate taxes to avoid kicking the pension can down the road at a multi-billion cost? The silence of the donor class translates into support for keeping taxes low in my book.
Regarding developers, don't forget to include Khan and Rummell among them given their current projects. You can bet Curry jumps when they tell him too. One already got a bucket load of concessions and the other is about to get over $230 million more. Imagine what those dollars could do if spread across all the needs of the greater citizenry (e.g northwest quadrant). And, while developers have sway in other communities, I haven't found many communities that lay down as much as Jax does for their road building, wetlands and tree removal, destruction of historic buildings/neighborhoods and zoning requests. Jax's foot-dragging on dealing with rising seas is another example of protecting developers by not hindering their development in vulnerable areas and/or making them incur even mildly higher costs for built-in resiliency.
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(2) Layer on top of this the generally much more-conservative-than-average populace, often propelled by likewise conservative religious and political beliefs, and you get leadership that shies away from most things progressive or disruptive to the status quo. This heritage has been ingrained at least back to the early 1900's when Jax leaders ran off the "scandalous" movie industry and lives on, to some degree, to this day as witnessed in the fight over a relatively toothless human rights ordinance. (Another small example from over the years: In the early 1980's, Jax leaders wanted to remove from the Times Union Center [then, the Civic Auditorium] marquee the word "whorehouse" in the hit Broadway show "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas," finding it too offensive. Only the threat of litigation forced them to back down.)
This is a stereotype that was likely more true in the past than it is now, or will be in the future. The demographics and political leanings of the population are shifting as large chunks of the older, white populace move to the surrounding counties and Duval gains and retains more ethnic minorities and young people.
Jax has had different "factions" for as long as the city has been here. There's a highly conservative "faction", but the business community is much more moderate and has been for decades. There's also the African-American community which makes up a third of the city. Overall the city has been far more purple than it's given credit for years now.
While I agree that the long term trend in Duval may be toward moderation, we are talking here only about the past leading up to the present (i.e how we got to where we are - or are not - today). And, our past has definitely skewed conservative, including much of the business community. There are also substantial elements of the African American community that skew conservative on certain social issues that touch on their religious values. If the City was currently as moderate as you would suggest, we would not have seen such a knockdown drag out fight over the HRO or the City still voting overwhelmingly for conservative "red" candidates at the local level who regularly champion conservative issues.
I would also add that much of the donor class for Duval elections actually resides in those very red surrounding counties of St. Johns, Clay, Nassau and Baker. Most who live in those counties make their living in Duval and are at the ready to assert their values on it. Their interest can also be attributed to "investing" in Duval officials that may ultimately become State or Federal ones and/or surrounding interests wanting to load State and Federal legislative bodies with wide-area representatives aligned with their interests.
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Quote(3) Next, Jax leadership has fed off of, and maybe contributed to, a spirit of civic inferiority in showing a lack of confidence in, and putting at the forefront, the natural and man-made attributes of our City. This has led to leadership chasing the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that mostly turns out to be one illusion after another. This sucks resources, attention and energy from the pursuit of much more realistic projects that could cumulatively do much more to advance our City. Failed, or yet to be proven, mega-project "saviors" of the City have included Offshore Power Systems, the Skyway, the Shipyards, Lot J, the Osborn Convention Center, La Villa redevelopment, the current county courthouse, Better Jacksonville/River City Renaissance Plans, the Jacksonville Landing, getting an NFL team, getting the return of nuclear aircraft carriers to Mayport, saving the Florida-Georgia game, recruiting to the extreme some "game-changing" company to the City, opening up new areas for development (e.g. the northside by building the Dames Point Bridge), building JIA and now dredging the port, etc. While all of these, to varying degrees, may have had some positive effects, none of them have delivered in propelling us beyond, putting Jacksonville on par, or even preventing us from falling further behind, the likes of Charlotte, Nashville, Orlando, Tampa, Ft. Lauderdale or, possibly, some other up and coming communities such as Greenville, Savannah, Charleston, Columbia, West Palm Beach, Raleigh/Durham, Asheville, etc.
I don't think this all follows. It's also not true that the city is doing as poorly as is sometimes presented by critics. The city and metro area have experienced consistent growth for, well, ever, and there are a lot of successes all over town. Downtown still struggles but it's not like the city overall is stagnant or moving backward in any real sense.
As you say, however, we put a lot of stake in one-trick ponies promised to take us to the "next level". But not everything you list is an example of that - some were never promised to be "saviors" and others really were "game changing". What we do have is a lack of consistency and follow-through after we have a successful project or plan. That's certainly the biggest reason Downtown struggles.
I am not saying the City is going backwards or doing "poorly." I am saying the City is falling behind like-cities that we traditionally consider our peers. Our country's population has more than doubled over the last 60 to 70 years so every place is almost assured of some level of growth without doing much of anything. The question isn't just about growth, but "smart" growth and quality of life. Do we benchmark ourselves against the best or settle for falling to a lower tier due to mismanagement?
If you ask me, the biggest game changer in modern times was probably getting Mayo Clinic and that was almost entirely due to the actions of the Davis family, not some grand plan of leadership. Mayo literally gave us a "world class" imprint that has rarely been achieved here. The next closest such game changer in my book has been the Fidelity National move to Jax and the three current local Fortune 500 companies it has led too. The catalyst for this move was an acquisition of a local company. It's also interesting that, like Mayo, all of the Fidelity companies are mostly run by transplants, not homegrown managers. Along with these companies, one home grown player that I believe has been a game changer in modern times is Florida Blue. The have become a well run, leading edge player in their industry and a progressive contributor to the Jax community. None of these "game changers" involved a city-wide cheerleading campaign to get them off the ground but were more organic in nature.
By the way, coincidentally, Nate Monroe just posted this column reviewing Jax's chase of Offshore Power Systems showing little has changed with "savior" projects:
QuotePower, money and influence have more than once nearly plunged JEA and the city of Jacksonville into crisis over hare-brained ideas.
COMMENTARY | The proposal was staggering: A powerhouse corporate partnership would pump $250 million into a big-ticket project in Jacksonville, where it would employ as many as 10,000 people — 90 percent of whom, the companies claimed, would be local. The economic impact would be a transformative $1.5 billion, touching the lives of not only the well-coiffed business class but also the working poor, who would receive specialized job training if they needed it to fill the glut of openings that were surely to come.
It was 1971, and Jacksonville was fresh off a civic triumph it would tout for decades to come: The city-county consolidation voters approved a few years earlier had in one fell swoop created the largest city by landmass in the continental United States, and one of the most populous. The business leaders who helped make this happen were ready to showcase this rejuvenated River City on a national stage — and to make money. This project, they believed, would accomplish both.
Those business leaders were wrong.
What that 1971 proposal would turn out to be instead was a phenomenal debacle and an embarrassment — a hare-brained idea to construct two nuclear power plants and float them in the middle of the St. Johns River near Blount Island, then to sell both plants to JEA, the city-owned electric authority, for $2.2 billion ($13.9 billion in today's dollars). It wasn't the city's first high-profile success. It would be its first major failure — etching the contours of what would become the all-too-familiar Jacksonville story arc...
...Much about the way Jacksonville operated in the 1970s is recognizable today: "The entire political establishment in Jacksonville consists of a small group of businessmen who have grown rich together since World War II," Rolling Stone writer Joe Klein wrote of the city in a 1976 story on the nuclear debacle.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20191023/nate-monroe-hucksters-came-after-jea---and-city---once-before-their-last-great-idea-was-floating-nuclear-power-plants (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20191023/nate-monroe-hucksters-came-after-jea---and-city---once-before-their-last-great-idea-was-floating-nuclear-power-plants)
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(4) Finally, Jax leadership has failed to consistently and properly support, invest and prioritize educational opportunities from K to college. We had the unprecedented dis-accreditation of our entire school system in 1964. We were the last major city in Florida to get a 4 year public university and didn't have a community college until 1968. We still lack significant and heavy duty graduate schools in many major professions. And, today, we continue to under-invest with the refusal to even put a referendum on the ballot supporting enhancing our schools. Aside from making us less attractive to national corporate and individual prospects, we are driving our locals into the surrounding counties debasing our own.
This is patently true. Though most urban school districts in Florida (and elsewhere) under-perform the suburban counties. This is also a major driver of Jacksonville's demographic changes.
I was not focused on under performance but rather under investment and lack of attention and prioritization so demographics are not really relevant to my point. For what its worth, again, we are looking at the past, not the future, and in the past, most of our suburbs were in Duval County so the comparison to surrounding counties means little.
In case you are wondering, one reason often given for us being late to the party of state institutions of higher learning (i.e. getting FSCJ and UNF), was that civic leaders believed having those institutions in Jax would harm the interests of JU. That's clearly not the case today, but it is an example of our historical failure to realize the value of public education that has rippled to the present.
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All of the above is not to take away from the occasional Jacksonville success stories or sporadic well-meaning efforts of some over the years or currently, but it does summarize the prevailing winds over Jacksonville for most of the last many decades that have held us back.
This City has amazing natural assets (the beach, river, intracoastal waterway, climate, location, landscape, wildlife, etc.), good and talented people, a diversified economy, a decent quality of life and a favorable cost of living. When one checks off these boxes, only a lack of great leadership could screw things up. Case closed 8).
Again, I wouldn't say we've been "held back". We're a much more vibrant, diverse and happening city than we were when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. What I would say is that this has often had to happen in spite of what the city government is doing, and the lack of consistency and good leadership has kept Downtown in the doldrums and prevented us from reaching the potential we might otherwise have reached.
Your final comment here, that our successes are more in spite of local leadership, not because of it, echoes my conclusion. Some "advancement" is inevitable as a result of national and global societal trends that rub off on our community given we are not living in a totally isolated bubble and have been heavily (and, to some of us, favorably) impacted by transplants from around the country and the world. Are we at the tipping point that you suggest? Time will tell.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 21, 2019, 10:43:44 PM
When I visited Greenville recently, I noted that, unlike Jacksonville, they have renovated/repurposed many of their historic structures, built an active and accessible street-scape with unbroken rows of retail and restaurants, maximized green space on their waterfront and optimized using the waterfront as an attraction and focal point. Considering their waterfront is mainly a mountain stream, they have done amazing things to get the most out of it. The green space actually runs for quite a distance beyond the downtown creating their own version of an Emerald Trail. Looks like they also run a free trolley up and down the main street.
What they've done with the concentration and focus on the river is the key part. They've done such a good job you didn't notice that like any other downtown, they've torn down all sorts of big old buildings. Just go over a couple blocks to the fancy schmancy Book Brothers and you're surrounded by modern bldgs and parking ramps.
Keep in mind that the rate of people in Greenville with bachelors and masters degrees is @50% higher than the US average and roughly twice that of Jacksonville. Having people with money helps mucho-mucho in having that sort of downtown.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on October 24, 2019, 09:50:26 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 21, 2019, 10:43:44 PM
When I visited Greenville recently, I noted that, unlike Jacksonville, they have renovated/repurposed many of their historic structures, built an active and accessible street-scape with unbroken rows of retail and restaurants, maximized green space on their waterfront and optimized using the waterfront as an attraction and focal point. Considering their waterfront is mainly a mountain stream, they have done amazing things to get the most out of it. The green space actually runs for quite a distance beyond the downtown creating their own version of an Emerald Trail. Looks like they also run a free trolley up and down the main street.
What they've done with the concentration and focus on the river is the key part. They've done such a good job you didn't notice that like any other downtown, they've torn down all sorts of big old buildings. Just go over a couple blocks to the fancy schmancy Book Brothers and you're surrounded by modern bldgs and parking ramps.
Keep in mind that the rate of people in Greenville with bachelors and masters degrees is @50% higher than the US average and roughly twice that of Jacksonville. Having people with money helps mucho-mucho in having that sort of downtown.
That is pretty surprising. They have a number of colleges/universities but their total enrollment is about 1/2 of UNF. They must attract a lot from Clemson and USC.
Just found this article about it.
https://greenvillejournal.com/2018/11/29/data-shows-most-alumni-from-sc-schools-stay-in-state-after-graduation/
I think a very short sentence can be used to explain our CBD's current condition. It's so simple. Just look at our mayor, our city council, and the heads of our local agencies. (They are all the same and are beholden to big money donors)
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 23, 2019, 11:11:02 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on October 23, 2019, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 22, 2019, 11:41:14 PM
I will suggest 4 significant things that have held Jax back over the decades...
This is well stated, but I'm going to push back on a few of these things.
It's true that the donor class has a lot of influence, but I can't imagine this is a problem unique to Jax. The low tax economy and sprawl-driven development certainly aren't unique to Jax, as it's the status quo for all of Florida. It's also one of the main drivers of growth, for better or worse. That said, Jacksonville is more averse to raising taxes to get our heads above water than Florida's other big cities, and our developers largely haven't focused on urban development without incentives. But it's worth pointing out that last time taxes were raised, the donor class supported it and it was the mayor, who had fallen out of favor with them, who fought it.
Tacachale, appreciate your measured response. I will respond accordingly 8).
It's not about the donor class being unique to Jax. It's about the compounding of decades of undue influence, the degree of influence and the consequences of same.
If the donor class supported raising taxes, we would not have had recent mayors refusing to do so, Curry being the most steadfast of all of them (i.e. the trend has been worsening). There were actually years when taxes were cut. Where was the donor class you speak of then? Do you see the Civic Council publicly pushing Curry to raise taxes as our City's infrastructure is literally crumbling (e.g. poorly maintained parks, road potholes proliferating, resiliency and drainage projects sidelined) right before our eyes? Did the donor class push Curry to approve the School Board referendum or push for a small increase in today's real estate taxes to avoid kicking the pension can down the road at a multi-billion cost? The silence of the donor class translates into support for keeping taxes low in my book.
Regarding developers, don't forget to include Khan and Rummell among them given their current projects. You can bet Curry jumps when they tell him too. One already got a bucket load of concessions and the other is about to get over $230 million more. Imagine what those dollars could do if spread across all the needs of the greater citizenry (e.g northwest quadrant). And, while developers have sway in other communities, I haven't found many communities that lay down as much as Jax does for their road building, wetlands and tree removal, destruction of historic buildings/neighborhoods and zoning requests. Jax's foot-dragging on dealing with rising seas is another example of protecting developers by not hindering their development in vulnerable areas and/or making them incur even mildly higher costs for built-in resiliency.
The donor class - and average voters - favor a low tax environment in general, but there have been a number of examples of them supporting tax increases. Curry did raise a sales tax to fund his pension proposal, and the donor class and voters supported that - of course he claimed it wasn't a new tax but an "extension" of the BJP tax, but it wasn't. The last time millage taxes went up was in Brown's administration. The donor class favored raising the taxes, and Brown opposed it. This was after the point he had fallen out with the business Republicans (who had widely favored him earlier) and appeared to be trying to court Tea Party and more conservative voters, which obviously didn't work out for him. The City Council took the budget away from the mayor's office and raised taxes, and it was widely seen as necessary. Before that, John Peyton, after cutting taxes before the recession, raised them to where they were in the 1990s. That was supported as well (by the donor class; voters probably would never have elected him to anything else again).
Honestly I'd say the mayoral administrations are more the reason for taxes not being raised to meet needs than anything else. In fact, I expect that if a mayor came out with a plan to increase quality life or just get the city government functioning well again, the donor class would get behind it. Probably the voters too, considering 2/3 of them supported the pension sales tax.
You're 100% right that we give big concessions to developers, our planning is weak, and we're behind the 8 ball on sea level rise. I'd say that our tendency to chase "silver bullet" projects over getting the little things right is a big part of it.
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This is a stereotype that was likely more true in the past than it is now, or will be in the future. The demographics and political leanings of the population are shifting as large chunks of the older, white populace move to the surrounding counties and Duval gains and retains more ethnic minorities and young people.
Jax has had different "factions" for as long as the city has been here. There's a highly conservative "faction", but the business community is much more moderate and has been for decades. There's also the African-American community which makes up a third of the city. Overall the city has been far more purple than it's given credit for years now.
While I agree that the long term trend in Duval may be toward moderation, we are talking here only about the past leading up to the present (i.e how we got to where we are - or are not - today). And, our past has definitely skewed conservative, including much of the business community. There are also substantial elements of the African American community that skew conservative on certain social issues that touch on their religious values. If the City was currently as moderate as you would suggest, we would not have seen such a knockdown drag out fight over the HRO or the City still voting overwhelmingly for conservative "red" candidates at the local level who regularly champion conservative issues.
I would also add that much of the donor class for Duval elections actually resides in those very red surrounding counties of St. Johns, Clay, Nassau and Baker. Most who live in those counties make their living in Duval and are at the ready to assert their values on it. Their interest can also be attributed to "investing" in Duval officials that may ultimately become State or Federal ones and/or surrounding interests wanting to load State and Federal legislative bodies with wide-area representatives aligned with their interests.
The city doesn't vote overwhelmingly red when given real options. Republicans dominate the government but that's due to gerrymandering and the failures of the Democratic party. Presidential elections tilt Republican but it's been coming closer to parity since 2008 - Clinton lost Duval by only a few thousand votes in 2016 and it's likely that in the next few elections, if not 2020, a Democrat will carry Duval. Duval went for Democrats in 3 of the 5 state races in 2018, including governor. Gerrymandered state and local districts, a much stronger operation, and the Democrats doing incomprehensible things like not running a mayoral candidate this year, are the reasons Republican continue to dominate the state and local government. But that's going to change as the demographics continue to shift. This is to say that while the political structure may be holding us back, the populace isn't.
The HRO is an interesting case. That was always supported by most residents and the entire business community. The reason the original version didn't pass in 2012 was that the Democratic mayor torpedoed it behind the scenes, against the wishes of the community and the nearly universal advice of the business community. Curry was certainly no supported but he didn't stand in the way of the council or the public's wishes.
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I don't think this all follows. It's also not true that the city is doing as poorly as is sometimes presented by critics. The city and metro area have experienced consistent growth for, well, ever, and there are a lot of successes all over town. Downtown still struggles but it's not like the city overall is stagnant or moving backward in any real sense.
As you say, however, we put a lot of stake in one-trick ponies promised to take us to the "next level". But not everything you list is an example of that - some were never promised to be "saviors" and others really were "game changing". What we do have is a lack of consistency and follow-through after we have a successful project or plan. That's certainly the biggest reason Downtown struggles.
I am not saying the City is going backwards or doing "poorly." I am saying the City is falling behind like-cities that we traditionally consider our peers. Our country's population has more than doubled over the last 60 to 70 years so every place is almost assured of some level of growth without doing much of anything. The question isn't just about growth, but "smart" growth and quality of life. Do we benchmark ourselves against the best or settle for falling to a lower tier due to mismanagement?
If you ask me, the biggest game changer in modern times was probably getting Mayo Clinic and that was almost entirely due to the actions of the Davis family, not some grand plan of leadership. Mayo literally gave us a "world class" imprint that has rarely been achieved here. The next closest such game changer in my book has been the Fidelity National move to Jax and the three current local Fortune 500 companies it has led too. The catalyst for this move was an acquisition of a local company. It's also interesting that, like Mayo, all of the Fidelity companies are mostly run by transplants, not homegrown managers. Along with these companies, one home grown player that I believe has been a game changer in modern times is Florida Blue. The have become a well run, leading edge player in their industry and a progressive contributor to the Jax community. None of these "game changers" involved a city-wide cheerleading campaign to get them off the ground but were more organic in nature.
By the way, coincidentally, Nate Monroe just posted this column reviewing Jax's chase of Offshore Power Systems showing little has changed with "savior" projects:
QuotePower, money and influence have more than once nearly plunged JEA and the city of Jacksonville into crisis over hare-brained ideas.
COMMENTARY | The proposal was staggering: A powerhouse corporate partnership would pump $250 million into a big-ticket project in Jacksonville, where it would employ as many as 10,000 people — 90 percent of whom, the companies claimed, would be local. The economic impact would be a transformative $1.5 billion, touching the lives of not only the well-coiffed business class but also the working poor, who would receive specialized job training if they needed it to fill the glut of openings that were surely to come.
It was 1971, and Jacksonville was fresh off a civic triumph it would tout for decades to come: The city-county consolidation voters approved a few years earlier had in one fell swoop created the largest city by landmass in the continental United States, and one of the most populous. The business leaders who helped make this happen were ready to showcase this rejuvenated River City on a national stage — and to make money. This project, they believed, would accomplish both.
Those business leaders were wrong.
What that 1971 proposal would turn out to be instead was a phenomenal debacle and an embarrassment — a hare-brained idea to construct two nuclear power plants and float them in the middle of the St. Johns River near Blount Island, then to sell both plants to JEA, the city-owned electric authority, for $2.2 billion ($13.9 billion in today's dollars). It wasn't the city's first high-profile success. It would be its first major failure — etching the contours of what would become the all-too-familiar Jacksonville story arc...
...Much about the way Jacksonville operated in the 1970s is recognizable today: "The entire political establishment in Jacksonville consists of a small group of businessmen who have grown rich together since World War II," Rolling Stone writer Joe Klein wrote of the city in a 1976 story on the nuclear debacle.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20191023/nate-monroe-hucksters-came-after-jea---and-city---once-before-their-last-great-idea-was-floating-nuclear-power-plants (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20191023/nate-monroe-hucksters-came-after-jea---and-city---once-before-their-last-great-idea-was-floating-nuclear-power-plants)
I don't have much to add here except that while a number of cities that were traditionally peers, like Charlotte, have surpassed us, we've also blown past places that used to be peers, like Birmingham, Greensboro or Grand Rapids. Other than urban redevelopment, we're holding our own with some peers like Nashville, Indianapolis and Raleigh-Durham, despite not having assets they have like several universities and state capitols.
QuoteQuote
This is patently true. Though most urban school districts in Florida (and elsewhere) under-perform the suburban counties. This is also a major driver of Jacksonville's demographic changes.
I was not focused on under performance but rather under investment and lack of attention and prioritization so demographics are not really relevant to my point. For what its worth, again, we are looking at the past, not the future, and in the past, most of our suburbs were in Duval County so the comparison to surrounding counties means little.
In case you are wondering, one reason often given for us being late to the party of state institutions of higher learning (i.e. getting FSCJ and UNF), was that civic leaders believed having those institutions in Jax would harm the interests of JU. That's clearly not the case today, but it is an example of our historical failure to realize the value of public education that has rippled to the present.
No disagreement from me on this point.
QuoteQuote
Again, I wouldn't say we've been "held back". We're a much more vibrant, diverse and happening city than we were when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. What I would say is that this has often had to happen in spite of what the city government is doing, and the lack of consistency and good leadership has kept Downtown in the doldrums and prevented us from reaching the potential we might otherwise have reached.
Your final comment here, that our successes are more in spite of local leadership, not because of it, echoes my conclusion. Some "advancement" is inevitable as a result of national and global societal trends that rub off on our community given we are not living in a totally isolated bubble and have been heavily (and, to some of us, favorably) impacted by transplants from around the country and the world. Are we at the tipping point that you suggest? Time will tell.
I think we're definitely at a point where things will change. It's not clear how quickly that will be or if it will all be positive, but the face of the city is evolving rapidly whether the the powers that be are ready or not. Any war against time and demographics is unwinnable. I really hope the city adjusts.
I wouldn't be so quick to discard Grand Rapids. They actually have quite a bit going on. Not all developments on the attached list are in downtown Grand Rapids but a lot of them are. I'm really interested to see what they come up with to restore the rapids downtown that gave the city its name.
https://www.experiencegr.com/about-grand-rapids/development/
Quote from: Kerry on October 25, 2019, 03:06:21 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to discard Grand Rapids. They actually have quite a bit going on. Not all developments on the attached list are in downtown Grand Rapids but a lot of them are. I'm really interested to see what they come up with to restore the rapids downtown that gave the city its name.
https://www.experiencegr.com/about-grand-rapids/development/
Grand Rapids is a great city, and there's a lot Jax could learn from it. But in scale were on two totally different trajectories.
Quote from: Tacachale on October 25, 2019, 06:24:18 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 25, 2019, 03:06:21 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to discard Grand Rapids. They actually have quite a bit going on. Not all developments on the attached list are in downtown Grand Rapids but a lot of them are. I'm really interested to see what they come up with to restore the rapids downtown that gave the city its name.
https://www.experiencegr.com/about-grand-rapids/development/
Grand Rapids is a great city, and there's a lot Jax could learn from it. But in scale were on two totally different trajectories.
Grand Rapids may be a great city, but 5 months of the year with an average low temp below freezing, and 10 months of the year with a record low temp below freezing is not going to lure many Floridians!
Quote from: Tacachale on October 25, 2019, 06:24:18 PM
Quote from: Kerry on October 25, 2019, 03:06:21 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to discard Grand Rapids. They actually have quite a bit going on. Not all developments on the attached list are in downtown Grand Rapids but a lot of them are. I'm really interested to see what they come up with to restore the rapids downtown that gave the city its name.
https://www.experiencegr.com/about-grand-rapids/development/
Grand Rapids is a great city, and there's a lot Jax could learn from it. But in scale were on two totally different trajectories.
Are you talking about metro areas or the urban core?
Probably MSA. Jax has 500,000 more people than Grand Rapids MSA. On the other than, the urban core of 2019 Grand Rapids has just as many people as the urban core of 1950 Jax. However, the urban core of Jax has declined 50% in population since then. So Grand Rapids does have a more vibrant urban core.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 25, 2019, 11:35:31 PM
Probably MSA. Jax has 500,000 more people than Grand Rapids MSA. On the other than, the urban core of 2019 Grand Rapids has just as many people as the urban core of 1950 Jax. However, the urban core of Jax has declined 50% in population since then. So Grand Rapids does have a more vibrant urban core.
Yes on both accounts. Metro Jax is also growing at a much faster rate, though Grand Rapids is pretty healthy for Michigan. Of course a lot of that is folks from the parts of the state that are declining moving there.
I might have to go back to Greenville this summer just to get caught up on everything being built.
https://gvltoday.6amcity.com/greenville-sc-developments/
This picture says it all. Three more cranes than DT Jax (4 if you exclude Brooklyn)....
(https://gvltoday.6amcity.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/12/development-banner.jpeg)
You should see the crane vista here in Charlotte. I'm just blown away at what's happening here.
Was up there a few months back. Tons of cranes there as well. I was really impressed with how the South End is coming along. Was also in Orange Park last week. It's tied with DT Jax for the number of cranes.....one.
Yes, lots of construction and change in South End. Nearly 8 hotels in the planning phases, and quite a few 10+ story (including 23-story building for Lowe's Tech Hub, 11 stories for Lending Tree, a 16-story Speculative Office Bldg) office buildings lead some to believe that South End and Uptown will merge in the next 5-10 years. There's a very strong rumor that an announcement is imminent for a new 40+ story office complex right where South End meets Uptown at the 277 inner loop. Chief complaint about South-End development to date, among locals, is design quality of some of the newer residential buildings. Lots of stick-framed mid-rise apartment buildings, and not nearly as nice as the structures you see in rapidly densifying South Park. South End is, however, the most walk-able part of Charlotte outside of Uptown, with a fast growing array of entertainment options, all accessible without a car.
Next time you're here and have some time, make your way to NODA (including Optimist Hall...adaptive reuse of an old textile mill into a Food and Drink Hall). I'm currently searching for a home in that neighborhood.
Made it there too. Had a quick meal in Optimist Hall. Excellent rehab job:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Charlotte-November-2019/i-kw3D3v4/0/f1e5c503/X3/20191110_180538-X3.jpg)
Ended up driving around NODA a bit to see how things had changed since my previous visit to the area several years ago. Also, stopped at a 24 hour cafe/bakery (Amelie's?) in the area that had pretty good desserts.
So. Carolina is on fire. Greenville, Columbia, Charleston, Spartanburg...
In looking at a map, the mid-point of SC is about 600 miles from So. Florida and about the same from the New York area. Logistically, I could see the state giving Atlanta a run for the money over the next 50 years or so (Atl has 3 interstates, 2 of which run straight into SC, and so does Columbia + the port of Charleston). And, SC has the coast, low country and foothills to Appalachia to add some geographic interest and a bit better winter climate.
What SC is missing is Atlanta's airport but, with Boeing in Charleston and every flight up and down the East Coast flying over the state, maybe that will change someday too 8). SC also needs to spend major dollars on upgrading their interstates, the worst I have seen just about anywhere.
I've always been confident in the idea of mass transit as economic/development stimulus, but the light rail here and the relatively recent extension of the light rail north of uptown Charlotte, including through NODA, make me a total disciple. To think, the Better Jax Plan had funding for light rail real estate acquisition and perhaps a design study...could have been transformational for Jax. Planning initiatives here become vast, community-wide dialogues among tons of interest groups. Currently, a complete re-work of the zoning code is in development and expected to be put in front of Council late this year. A part of that project has already happened with a mass rezoning along the light rail line, making over 1770+ acres and over 1500 parcels a designated TOD district. Witnessing first-hand what's happening in Charlotte has made me realize that downtown vibrancy isn't so much about level of demand or RFPs or even Incentives packages, but consistent, and inclusionary leadership.
We squandered that $100 million from the BJP. I suspect it ended up being used to pay for the country courthouse's bloated budget. Same thing happened to Orlando back in the 1990s. Their lost LRT money went to build Charlotte's initial LRT line. That missed opportunity appears to have changed Orlando's perspective. However, it was a generational miss. 20 years have passed already.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 11, 2020, 08:32:14 PM
This picture says it all. Three more cranes than DT Jax (4 if you exclude Brooklyn)....
(https://gvltoday.6amcity.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/12/development-banner.jpeg)
And right behind where that photo was taken from is going to be the $1 billion County Square development.
Greenville has a couple of factors working in its favor compared to Jacksonville here.
Firstly, Greenville has taken an approach to maintaining/improving its fiscal health that's almost the exact opposite of consolidation. Although Greenville's urbanized area population along with that of adjacent suburban Mauldin-Simpsonville (they are effectively a single urbanized area but the criteria governing the designation of urbanized areas prevent them from combining or merging) is about 521K according to the official 2010 figures, and Greenville is the largest commercial hub and primary city of its MSA consisting of 907K people and a CSA (which includes the neighboring Spartanburg MSA) of 1.5M, city leaders have deliberately chosen to keep the city artificially small at roughly 70 square miles with around 70K residents. This is partially the result of SC's rather strict annexation laws that make it difficult for municipalities to expand their borders (properties to be annexed must be contiguous with the city's current borders and it's practically impossible for annexation to occur without the consent of property owners), so Greenville chose to be more strategic in its annexation efforts by mainly targeting undeveloped tracts that were slated to be developed as well as sizable commercial areas which have a larger net financial benefit for the city. This allowed city leaders to invest heavily in downtown which is the only urban district in the city; there are no smaller neighborhood commercial districts like San Marco and Riverside in Jacksonville. Using a combination of standard public investment (roads, sidewalks, parks, etc.), TIF districts, and public-private partnerships for anchor developments, the city really primed the pump for private dollars to flow into downtown and the results have been tremendous.
Secondly, downtown Greenville is relatively compact with a small footprint so it takes fewer developments to have a big impact on the cityscape. Historically it was the textile industry that undergirded the local economy and today it is more reliant on industries that require a lot of space and typically locate in the suburbs (manufacturing, warehousing, engineering, call centers/back office operations), so the city was blessed to not have a bunch of office towers with blank walls thrown up in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, destroying what little historic urban fabric it did have. Main Street was ideally suited for revitalization because for the most part, it retained a continuous streetwall of historic commercial spaces for several blocks.
Thirdly, Greenville has been blessed with long-term visionary and progressive leadership who were consistent in their efforts to revitalize downtown. It all started with late Mayor Max Heller, who was a native of Vienna, Austria and wanted a revitalized downtown that would resemble a European pedestrian-friendly village. He got the ball rolling in the 70s and served two terms in office (1971-1979). The late Mayor Bill Workman was elected in 1983 and he moved downtown Greenville forward by overseeing the construction of major anchors like the Peace Center for the Performing Arts and the Bi-Lo Arena while also being a major force for regional economic development. After three terms in office, Mayor Knox White succeeded him in 1995 and has been in office since, and it's clear that his major priority has been shepherding downtown Greenville into a new stratum.
Lastly, I'd say the relatively uniform culture and political ideology of the Upstate has been a major positive factor for downtown also. Historically the region has been conservative and predominantly White (especially compared to the larger cities in SC) so the liberal/conservative, urban/suburban, White/Black, etc clashes that you see in a lot of other places were completely absent in Greenville. Downtown is embraced by the entire region and is pretty popular with families. Personally, I prefer a downtown with some rough edges, a greater diversity of people from all walks of life, and a variety of businesses and establishments that can sometimes clash visually and aesthetically yet still coexist in the same space; that's not really how downtown Greenville is set up which sometimes causes folks to criticize it as "Disneyfied" or overly engineered, which I can somewhat understand. But when it comes to a city that made revitalization a goal and has actively worked towards that end by identifying exactly the types of amenities and assets it wanted and partnering with the right entities to make it happen, Greenville is by far one of the best examples of such in the country and is consistently highlighted as a model.
^^ Well stated Krazzeeboi.
One thing you didn't mention that did play a part was the vision and involvement of a handful of business titans that helped things along. This article highlights one such family, The Wyches.
https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/ (https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/)
Thanks for the info and insight krazeeboi.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 02, 2020, 01:28:10 PM
^^ Well stated Krazzeeboi.
One thing you didn't mention that did play a part was the vision and involvement of a handful of business titans that helped things along. This article highlights one such family, The Wyches.
https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/ (https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/)
Very true. City leaders have been very successful with getting the business community on board with downtown revitalization and that's the other side of the coin of public-private partnerships. Having multinational corporation offices and large manufacturing facilities in the region is also a big source of philanthropy.
Quote from: krazeeboi on March 02, 2020, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 02, 2020, 01:28:10 PM
^^ Well stated Krazzeeboi.
One thing you didn't mention that did play a part was the vision and involvement of a handful of business titans that helped things along. This article highlights one such family, The Wyches.
https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/ (https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/)
Very true. City leaders have been very successful with getting the business community on board with downtown revitalization and that's the other side of the coin of public-private partnerships. Having multinational corporation offices and large manufacturing facilities in the region is also a big source of philanthropy.
That was one of the keys to OKC's success as well The business community stepped up big time. Same goes for Omaha, Kansas City, Detroit, and others.
Quote from: Kerry on March 02, 2020, 05:30:53 PM
Quote from: krazeeboi on March 02, 2020, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 02, 2020, 01:28:10 PM
^^ Well stated Krazzeeboi.
One thing you didn't mention that did play a part was the vision and involvement of a handful of business titans that helped things along. This article highlights one such family, The Wyches.
https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/ (https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/)
What we need is a decent NFL team owner who will contribute to the city he owns a team in. Our owner only wants more FROM the city. What can we do to make Shad richer?
Very true. City leaders have been very successful with getting the business community on board with downtown revitalization and that's the other side of the coin of public-private partnerships. Having multinational corporation offices and large manufacturing facilities in the region is also a big source of philanthropy.
That was one of the keys to OKC's success as well The business community stepped up big time. Same goes for Omaha, Kansas City, Detroit, and others.