Quote(https://s3.amazonaws.com/bncore/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1012269574-skyline-aerial3-900x570.jpg)
By Jonathan D. Epstein
How's this for an about-face? A group from a fast-growing Sun Belt city have come to Buffalo to see what's happening here to revive downtown.
For years, it was Buffalo officials who were trekking across the country in search of initiatives that succeeded elsewhere that could be tried here.
But now, it's a group from Jacksonville, Fla., who have flown to Buffalo to see if any of the things that have been done here to breathe new life into downtown could be duplicated in their city.
"There's lots of change here in Buffalo from what we hear. It's in a period of growth," said Leah Goodwyne, director of communications for JAX Chamber, the Jacksonville chamber of commerce. "There are definitely parallels between Buffalo and Jacksonville, so we wanted to come and take a look at those."
Jacksonville, for instance, wants more people living downtown. Buffalo's downtown population, now about the same size as Jacksonville's at a little more than 5,000, grew by almost 15% from 2012 to 2017.
Full Article: https://buffalonews.com/2019/07/31/jacksonville-to-buffalo-show-us-how-to-revive-our-city/
Maybe Bills fans won't light our city on fire the next time the Jags beat them in the playoffs:)
Seriously though....the message they need to get is clustering and density. The 5,000 number (or 10,000) number is great if they are all walking distance to one another. Not great if they are stretched from the Stadium to Riverside Ave.
QuoteThese trips are nothing new for the Jacksonville group. The Jacksonville chamber has organized trips for the last six years to allow the city's business and civic leaders to take a look at what's happening in other cities that are grappling with the same type of issues.
Six years my ass. More like 16 or 26. The only way it is six, is if they skipped one year, seven years ago. A first grader when they did the first one would at least be in college by now.
They have done trips all over the place and nothing ever comes from any of them.
Holy **** - are our civic and business leaders shut-ins or something? Can they not see how other cities are re-urbanizing by simply going on vacation? I would love to see the list of vacation destinations (or even weekend getaways) from our top 20 elected officials because it seems like they never get out of Duval County (unless it is on Khan's private plane). I mean hells-bells - drive to any number of cities within 10 hours of Jax and you can see it first hand. You don't need a damned guided tour to figure it out.
Quote from: Kerry on August 05, 2019, 05:30:55 PM
Holy **** - are our civic and business leaders shut-ins or something? Can they not see how other cities are re-urbanizing by simply going on vacation? I would love to see the list of vacation destinations (or even weekend getaways) from our top 20 elected officials because it seems like they never get out of Duval County (unless it is on Khan's private plane). I mean hells-bells - drive to any number of cities within 10 hours of Jax and you can see it first hand. You don't need a damned guided tour to figure it out.
I see both sides of this. I can see these trips being valuable, but in the past they haven't been. So should they stop? I think that's sort of like saying, "that school has been a failing school for 15 years, let's close it."
They SHOULD be focusing on things like programs to entice development, strategies they used to build market interest, etc. I do believe it's helpful to talk to those people. I'm hopeful that Brian Wolfburg of VyStar had a strong hand in this one (he connected the cities). He definitely seems to get it in terms of urban development (look at VyStar's downtown investment).
Now, the problem is we don't understand the little things that make things work. For example, compare our river walk to San Antonio's. Yes, there's a sidewalk along both rivers, but that doesn't tell the whole story.
Clearly Curry doesn't get it, but a trip like that won't help him anyway. The goal is hopefully to take a few little things out of it to make an impact here.
It is 2019 - we don't need to send City leaders to other cities to see how it was done. All they need to do is invite Jeff Speck, Charles Mahron, James Kunstler, or Andres Duany to come speak - or pick up a freaking book and read the darn thing. Hell, if they would promise to read it I would personally buy them a copy of selected reading material at my own expense. The New Urbanism movement (CNU) also has thousands of videos on YouTube they can watch for free. The University of Miami offers a certificate program in New Urbanism and they will even come to Jax to give the class to everyone in City Hall. They can also join StrongTowns or Shoupistas on Facebook. Finally, they can join CNU (Congress for the New Urbanism) and go to their annual convention (it was just in Savannah last year). Urbanization isn't a secret.
www.cnu.org
https://www.jeffspeck.com/
https://kunstler.com/
https://www.dpz.com/
https://mredu.arc.miami.edu/events-and-activities/new-urbanism-online/index.html
https://www.strongtowns.org/
Quote from: Kerry on August 05, 2019, 05:55:04 PM
It is 2019 - we don't need to send City leaders to other cities to see how it was done. All they need to do is invite Jeff Speck, Charles Mahron, James Kunstler, or Andres Duany to come speak - or pick up a freaking book and read the darn thing. Hell, if they would promise to read it I would personally buy them a copy of selected reading material at my own expense. The New Urbanism movement (CNU) also has thousands of videos on YouTube they can watch for free. The University of Miami offers a certificate program in New Urbanism and they will even come to Jax to give the class to everyone in City Hall. They can also join StrongTowns or Shoupistas on Facebook. Finally, they can join CNU (Congress for the New Urbanism) and go to their annual convention (it was just in Savannah last year). Urbanization isn't a secret.
www.cnu.org
https://www.jeffspeck.com/
https://kunstler.com/
https://www.dpz.com/
https://mredu.arc.miami.edu/events-and-activities/new-urbanism-online/index.html
https://www.strongtowns.org/
As someone who travels for work as part of their job, while I understand your point I do think there's an aspect to seeing something and talking to people in person. I'm frustrated that continuously miss on the right things to look at, but I'd view dumping the trips entirely as throwing the baby out with the bath water.
QuoteFrom the article
To do that, Jacksonville wants more apartments in its downtown area, something that is slowly happening in Buffalo with the recent flurry of projects to turn older buildings into residential properties.
We have some of that, with the Barnett and Trio. But, need to get plans in place on the soon to be form (maybe) JEA Building, and the Old Independent Life Building (near the Fed. Court House) before Wrecking Ball Curry takes them down.
The trip has always to me seemed much more about networking amongst power players than anything else.
Quotewhile I understand your point I do think there's an aspect to seeing something and talking to people in person.
How many times does it take? The same people are invited to these things every year. Surely by the third time, the thought 'gee, we are decades behind on this stuff, maybe we should do something' would occur to them.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 06, 2019, 04:17:05 AM
The trip has always to me seemed much more about networking amongst power players than anything else.
The trip has always to me seemed much more about a discounted vacation for power players than anything else. Don't these people already know each other?
Quote from: vicupstate on August 06, 2019, 08:54:50 AM
Quotewhile I understand your point I do think there's an aspect to seeing something and talking to people in person.
How many times does it take? The same people are invited to these things every year. Surely by the third time, the thought 'gee, we are decades behind on this stuff, maybe we should do something' would occur to them.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 06, 2019, 04:17:05 AM
The trip has always to me seemed much more about networking amongst power players than anything else.
The trip has always to me seemed much more about a discounted vacation for power players than anything else. Don't these people already know each other?
Perhaps the wrong people are going then. I'm not advocating for the specific people that go. My point is simply that seeing something in person and talking to people face to face can be valuable. Not that the trips are working at present.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 05, 2019, 02:15:13 PM
QuoteThese trips are nothing new for the Jacksonville group. The Jacksonville chamber has organized trips for the last six years to allow the city's business and civic leaders to take a look at what's happening in other cities that are grappling with the same type of issues.
Six years my ass. More like 16 or 26. The only way it is six, is if they skipped one year, seven years ago. A first grader when they did the first one would at least be in college by now.
They have been doing the downtown focused summer trip for six years - it was started when Tony Allegretti joined the Chamber
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 06, 2019, 10:15:58 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on August 05, 2019, 02:15:13 PM
QuoteThese trips are nothing new for the Jacksonville group. The Jacksonville chamber has organized trips for the last six years to allow the city's business and civic leaders to take a look at what's happening in other cities that are grappling with the same type of issues.
Six years my ass. More like 16 or 26. The only way it is six, is if they skipped one year, seven years ago. A first grader when they did the first one would at least be in college by now.
They have been doing the downtown focused summer trip for six years - it was started when Tony Allegretti joined the Chamber
Nope. They may have called it something different but they have been doing theses for some time.
https://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-10-09/story/kcs-downtown-provides-model-jacksonville-leadership-group (https://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-10-09/story/kcs-downtown-provides-model-jacksonville-leadership-group)
Waste of time. They will come back and sit back on their butts and plan the next trip.
Quote from: Kerry on August 05, 2019, 05:55:04 PM
It is 2019 - we don't need to send City leaders to other cities to see how it was done. All they need to do is invite Jeff Speck, Charles Mahron, James Kunstler, or Andres Duany to come speak - or pick up a freaking book and read the darn thing. Hell, if they would promise to read it I would personally buy them a copy of selected reading material at my own expense. The New Urbanism movement (CNU) also has thousands of videos on YouTube they can watch for free. The University of Miami offers a certificate program in New Urbanism and they will even come to Jax to give the class to everyone in City Hall. They can also join StrongTowns or Shoupistas on Facebook. Finally, they can join CNU (Congress for the New Urbanism) and go to their annual convention (it was just in Savannah last year). Urbanization isn't a secret.
www.cnu.org
https://www.jeffspeck.com/
https://kunstler.com/
https://www.dpz.com/
https://mredu.arc.miami.edu/events-and-activities/new-urbanism-online/index.html
https://www.strongtowns.org/
There are few people here that are more critical of our state and local government than me. I think urbanization is fine where it is and where it's wanted. There are millions of us who prefer less density. I don't want to live in a sardine society. I like space. I don't want the noise and chaos of cities like New York, Mexico City, Tokyo, Shanghai, etc. Just so you can walk to a deli? That would be so foreign to most of us. If you like urbanism, walkable convenience, density, move to one of those places. In my lifetime I've had so many friends complain about Jacksonville and move away. More likely than not, most have moved back. Me included. Not for the density, I moved away because to me, it was getting too busy! That's right, I want it like Mayberry. Spread is beautiful. I have huge oaks, an acre on a creek, quiet neighborhood, and it's devine. Be careful of what you wish for.
To be fair, a trip to Buffalo makes sense - if they'd bother to a) learn anything and b) apply it. I remember visiting Buffalo in the late 80s (my dad is from Buffalo) and it was a festering shithole. The downtown was dead or dying and it was an extremely depressing place to be. I guess your typical rust belt city. In any event, I have family there still and they report that it's really turned around. I think "Buffalo Rising" is the strapline or something. If Buffalo can do it, Jax can do it. We have a lot more to work with - for example, people are moving to Florida.
I'd be interested to learn more about the VyStar CEO's projects in Buffalo. They may give us an early look at what is envisioned in Jax.
Jax will eventually get its act together downtown. This JAX to BUF trip is all of getting inspiration from BUF's DT and nothing else. Let's not act like Buffalo as a whole doesn't have major issues. Most dying/ soon to be dying major metros like Chicago, St Louis, Pittsburgh and Cleveland have enough "meat on it's bones" to still be major cities for the foreseeable future.
If Buffalo keeps on losing people, it will eventually be headed into the sub-million zone in metro population, that's almost like being relegated (soccer analogy). Also, there are alot of metros that's around a million in pop (like Tucson, Grand Rapids, Fresno and Tulsa) that are waiting in the wings to easily push Buffalo even further down the metro population scale. Yes, keep on losing enough people and a downtown can even be affected; it's not unpresented.
Quote from: I-10east on August 09, 2019, 11:07:29 PM
Jax will eventually get its act together downtown. This JAX to BUF trip is all of getting inspiration from BUF's DT and nothing else. Let's not act like Buffalo as a whole doesn't have major issues. Most dying/ soon to be dying major metros like Chicago, St Louis, Pittsburgh and Cleveland have enough "meat on it's bones" to still be major cities for the foreseeable future.
If Buffalo keeps on losing people, it will eventually be headed into the sub-million zone in metro population, that's almost like being relegated (soccer analogy). Also, there are alot of metros that's around a million in pop (like Tucson, Grand Rapids, Fresno and Tulsa) that are waiting in the wings to easily push Buffalo even further down the metro population scale. Yes, keep on losing enough people and a downtown can even be affected; it's not unpresented.
I don't know what Buffalo's situation is like in respect of population gain/loss, but they do seem to have stopped the rot in the downtown area and are making big strides. I assume they must be attracting more businesses, etc. too.
Those rust belt cities have traditionally struggled with the loss of manufacturing jobs - but I think Chicago is doing okay.
^^^BUF's metro has 1.1M people, it's 50th in overall metro population, and is losing people at a -0.47% rate, not good. New York City is the miserly money magnet in that state, and every other metro is basically neglected; Rochester -0.80, Syracuse -1.82%. Albany surprisingly has positive growth; only +1.43 and likely because state governments' systemically props up capital cities.
One of a few rust belt cities that is defying the odds is Columbus, OH growing at a very respectable +10.76. Yes Chicago (growing at only +0.40%, and trending down) will be okay, because it has a sh*tl@ad of people; even though it will eventually become a dying metro (losing more people than gaining).
Illinois is similar like New York state, being an one city focused state. People are fleeing Illinois like the plague because of high taxes among other things. All of the states around Illinois have increased in population, due to fleeing Illinoisans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEyoJd8eEHw
Quote from: I-10east on August 11, 2019, 09:59:13 PM
^^^BUF's metro has 1.1M people, it's 50th in overall metro population, and is losing people at a -0.47% rate, not good. New York City is the miserly money magnet in that state, and every other metro is basically neglected; Rochester -0.80, Syracuse -1.82%. Albany surprisingly has positive growth; only +1.43 and likely because state governments' systemically props up capital cities.
One of a few rust belt cities that is defying the odds is Columbus, OH growing at a very respectable +10.76. Yes Chicago (growing at only +0.40%, and trending down) will be okay, because it has a sh*tl@ad of people; even though it will eventually become a dying metro (losing more people than gaining).
Illinois is similar like New York state, being an one city focused state. People are fleeing Illinois like the plague because of high taxes among other things. All of the states around Illinois have increased in population, due to fleeing Illinoisans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEyoJd8eEHw
I had a friend from Jax who moved to Columbus over a decade ago and really seems to love it. I've never been. Chicago will survive because it has a massive, diversified economy. Places like Youngstown, OH suffered when the manufacturing jobs moved away because there was nothing else to take their place. Chicago was always so much more - and it's basically the NYC of the midwest. I think it was the country's second-largest city until the mid-80s.
Quote from: Snaketoz on August 09, 2019, 04:23:40 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 05, 2019, 05:55:04 PM
It is 2019 - we don't need to send City leaders to other cities to see how it was done. All they need to do is invite Jeff Speck, Charles Mahron, James Kunstler, or Andres Duany to come speak - or pick up a freaking book and read the darn thing. Hell, if they would promise to read it I would personally buy them a copy of selected reading material at my own expense. The New Urbanism movement (CNU) also has thousands of videos on YouTube they can watch for free. The University of Miami offers a certificate program in New Urbanism and they will even come to Jax to give the class to everyone in City Hall. They can also join StrongTowns or Shoupistas on Facebook. Finally, they can join CNU (Congress for the New Urbanism) and go to their annual convention (it was just in Savannah last year). Urbanization isn't a secret.
www.cnu.org
https://www.jeffspeck.com/
https://kunstler.com/
https://www.dpz.com/
https://mredu.arc.miami.edu/events-and-activities/new-urbanism-online/index.html
https://www.strongtowns.org/
There are few people here that are more critical of our state and local government than me. I think urbanization is fine where it is and where it's wanted. There are millions of us who prefer less density. I don't want to live in a sardine society. I like space. I don't want the noise and chaos of cities like New York, Mexico City, Tokyo, Shanghai, etc. Just so you can walk to a deli? That would be so foreign to most of us. If you like urbanism, walkable convenience, density, move to one of those places. In my lifetime I've had so many friends complain about Jacksonville and move away. More likely than not, most have moved back. Me included. Not for the density, I moved away because to me, it was getting too busy! That's right, I want it like Mayberry. Spread is beautiful. I have huge oaks, an acre on a creek, quiet neighborhood, and it's devine. Be careful of what you wish for.
Then you should love New Urbanism. New Urbanism isn't just about high density, it is also about protecting the rural and open space you say you desire. The Rural to Urban Transect is designed to take all lifestyles and housing options into account. If you want to live in the country it is also built into the plan. New Urbanism would prevent density from spreading into rural areas (see the latest 4,000 homes planned for Clay County).
(https://transect.org/images/transect2.jpg)
I'm going to peg you as a T2 (or maybe a T3) type person.
https://transect-collection.org/
BTW - I watch The Andy Griffith show almost every day - Mayberry was walkable urbanism. Very compact downtown, grid street pattern, no subdivisions, no large surface parking lots, etc...
There's nothing new about the concept of transects or context classifications. Prior to consolidation, the entire old city of Jax fell some where between a T4 and T6. Downtown specifically needs to working to get back to consistently being a T6. You don't reach that level of density with suburban gas stations at key intersections and blowing up high-rise buildings for lawns.
Quote from: Adam White on August 12, 2019, 03:50:30 AM
I had a friend from Jax who moved to Columbus over a decade ago and really seems to love it. I've never been. Chicago will survive because it has a massive, diversified economy. Places like Youngstown, OH suffered when the manufacturing jobs moved away because there was nothing else to take their place. Chicago was always so much more - and it's basically the NYC of the midwest. I think it was the country's second-largest city until the mid-80s
No doubt Chicago at over 9M people in the metro, it is enormous. To say that it's a massive US metropolis is an understatement; despite any relatively insignificant loss of people to the metro, the city will still thrive on.
I'm still very pessimistic about the state of Illinois in general; it's high taxes, politics, corruption are making it's middle class head for more sane pastures in other states. If IL's govt doubles down on it's way it's doing things, people will continue to flee that state.