I think we can all agree that NASCAR's popularity has taken a hug hit over the past 10 years. I was a huge NASCAR fan for decades but after all the changes NASCAR made I haven't watched a full race in the past 10 years. NASCAR took all the fun out of it and now it is really just boring. The Chase is the dumbest idea ever. For the past 6 years I have been watching the Tour de France religiously, never miss a minute, and attendance and viewership of cycling is the highest ever and it got me to thinking - why not apply cycling rules to NASCAR. The more I thought about the more brilliant it seemed to be.
For those that don't know cycling here is basically how it would work.
1) The Series champ would win based on time, not points. The driver that completes the entire season in the fastest time would be the winner.
2) Each race would be like a cycling stage. There would be a stage winner (the race winner now) but the time would be calculated like cycling. If 5 cars cross the line grouped together all 5 cars would get the same time. If 20 cars cross together all 20 get the same time. Drivers finishing 1, 2, and 3rd would get time bonuses.
3) Cars finishing one more laps down would get their average full green flag lap time added to them for every lap they didn't finish plus the time it took them to finish their final lap.
4) Cars that don't finish (accidents or mechanical) would get the results of step 3 plus a penalty plus a penalty for every caution lap they missed. Crash early in a couple of races and you have no chance of winning a championship.
5) There would be teams of 5 cars all painted the same color (even if they have different sponsor decals). The objective of the team would be just like in cycling - help your primary driver get the fastest time. Your team driver wins all of the team mates get paid a share of the winnings.
6). The car in first place for the season would be painted yellow so everyone knows he is the season leader. There could even be short track, road course, superspeedway, and new comer competitions. Cars would be painted a specific color to designate the leader in each of those categories.
Thoughts?
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 09:20:20 AM
I think we can all agree that NASCAR's popularity has taken a hug hit over the past 10 years. I was a huge NASCAR fan for decades but after all the changes NASCAR made I haven't watched a full race in the past 10 years. NASCAR took all the fun out of it and now it is really just boring. The Chase is the dumbest idea ever. For the past 6 years I have been watching the Tour de France religiously, never miss a minute, and attendance and viewership of cycling is the highest ever and it got me to thinking - why not apply cycling rules to NASCAR. The more I thought about the more brilliant it seemed to be.
For those that don't know cycling here is basically how it would work.
1) The Series champ would win based on time, not points. The driver that completes the entire season in the fastest time would be the winner.
2) Each race would be like a cycling stage. There would be a stage winner (the race winner now) but the time would be calculated like cycling. If 5 cars cross the line grouped together all 5 cars would get the same time. If 20 cars cross together all 20 get the same time. Drivers finishing 1, 2, and 3rd would get time bonuses.
3) Cars finishing one more laps down would get their average full green flag lap time added to them for every lap they didn't finish plus the time it took them to finish their final lap.
4) Cars that don't finish (accidents or mechanical) would get the results of step 3 plus a penalty plus a penalty for every caution lap they missed. Crash early in a couple of races and you have no chance of winning a championship.
5) There would be teams of 5 cars all painted the same color (even if they have different sponsor decals). The objective of the team would be just like in cycling - help your primary driver get the fastest time. Your team driver wins all of the team mates get paid a share of the winnings.
6). The car in first place for the season would be painted yellow so everyone knows he is the season leader. There could even be short track, road course, superspeedway, and new comer competitions. Cars would be painted a specific color to designate the leader in each of those categories.
Thoughts?
You're basically trying to put lipstick on a pig. NASCAR is boring, regardless. Unless you like watching a bunch of lookalike cars drive in circles for hours.
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
I guess you've never watched WRC or WTCC (amongst other competitions).
You never disappoint, Kerry!
Quote from: Adam White on July 15, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
I guess you've never watched WRC or WTCC (amongst other competitions).
You never disappoint, Kerry!
But those series' are secretly owned by Shad Khan and profits from that racing is going to Lot J.
On the other hand, Trans Am racing is owned by the Oklahoma City government.
No thoughts on NASCAR Kerry, but what do you think about the Thunder going full rebuild?
Do you hate Paul George?
Would you buy out Chris Paul?
Quote from: KenFSU on July 15, 2019, 05:35:32 PM
< snip >
Do you hate Paul George?
< snip >
I think John Ringo is better.
Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week. Be sure to tip your server. :D
Quote from: KenFSU on July 15, 2019, 05:35:32 PM
No thoughts on NASCAR Kerry, but what do you think about the Thunder going full rebuild?
Do you hate Paul George?
Would you buy out Chris Paul?
Nothing wrong with going scorched earth. They weren't going to win a championship with their core team. I'll miss Westbrook though. They have a ton of first round picks over the next few years.
Quote from: Steve on July 15, 2019, 02:27:02 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 15, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
I guess you've never watched WRC or WTCC (amongst other competitions).
You never disappoint, Kerry!
But those series' are secretly owned by Shad Khan and profits from that racing is going to Lot J.
On the other hand, Trans Am racing is owned by the Oklahoma City government.
Honestly, is that necessary?
Quote from: Adam White on July 15, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
I guess you've never watched WRC or WTCC (amongst other competitions).
You never disappoint, Kerry!
I don't. I was think more like Indy and Formula 1.
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 09:35:22 AM
Quote from: Steve on July 15, 2019, 02:27:02 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 15, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
I guess you've never watched WRC or WTCC (amongst other competitions).
You never disappoint, Kerry!
But those series' are secretly owned by Shad Khan and profits from that racing is going to Lot J.
On the other hand, Trans Am racing is owned by the Oklahoma City government.
Honestly, is that necessary?
Perhaps no, but is it necessary to trace everything negative that happens downtown to Shad Khan and Lot J?
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 09:37:26 AM
Quote from: Adam White on July 15, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
I guess you've never watched WRC or WTCC (amongst other competitions).
You never disappoint, Kerry!
I don't. I was think more like Indy and Formula 1.
I find F1 to be mildly interesting - at least they have to turn the wheel both ways. And the setting can be kind of interesting - racing on city streets and stuff. But I much prefer rally and touring car racing.
I get that people like NASCAR and it's just not my thing. I like baseball and a lot of people think that's incredibly dull. I didn't realise NASCAR was losing fans - I seem to recall reading (a number of years ago) that it was the most popular sport in the USA or something. Or one of them, at least.
NASCAR is in the tank. Tracks stopped announcing attendance a few years ago and TV viewership is way down. Many tracks are more than half empty.
Quote from: Steve on July 16, 2019, 09:48:05 AM
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 09:35:22 AM
Quote from: Steve on July 15, 2019, 02:27:02 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 15, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
I guess you've never watched WRC or WTCC (amongst other competitions).
You never disappoint, Kerry!
But those series' are secretly owned by Shad Khan and profits from that racing is going to Lot J.
On the other hand, Trans Am racing is owned by the Oklahoma City government.
Honestly, is that necessary?
Perhaps no, but is it necessary to trace everything negative that happens downtown to Shad Khan and Lot J?
It is when it is though.
Quote from: Adam White on July 16, 2019, 10:11:57 AM
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 09:37:26 AM
Quote from: Adam White on July 15, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 15, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
All racing except for Trans Am are in look-a-like cars.
I guess you've never watched WRC or WTCC (amongst other competitions).
You never disappoint, Kerry!
I don't. I was think more like Indy and Formula 1.
I find F1 to be mildly interesting - at least they have to turn the wheel both ways. And the setting can be kind of interesting - racing on city streets and stuff. But I much prefer rally and touring car racing.
I get that people like NASCAR and it's just not my thing. I like baseball and a lot of people think that's incredibly dull. I didn't realise NASCAR was losing fans - I seem to recall reading (a number of years ago) that it was the most popular sport in the USA or something. Or one of them, at least.
To Kerry's point, NASCAR has had a REALLY rough decade. I equate it to a retail store when they change format to get new customers only to not only not gain new customers, but lose the ones they had.
A few key popular drivers retired (Jeff Gordon, Dale Jr., etc.) and the new guys just aren't as popular.
People not keeping up with the format changes.
A lot of people feel it's over-officiated (other sports have that challenge too). Some of this is for safety, but not all.
Cost (this to me is a big one as NASCAR's core traditionally was more of a blue-collar fan base. To travel to a race, the race ticket is only a small part of the cost)
Personally, I think this started a while ago. NASCAR gave up some markets like Rockingham (and eliminated 2 races in some markets like Darlington) in favor of markets in big cities. The challenge is that NASCAR in big cities in a lot of ways was a passing fad.
Finally, I think that this generation's interest in cars in general is different than those previous. A lot of this generation is happy to live in cities and ditch the car entirely if they could. If they don't have a huge interest in their own car, then you're heading uphill to begin with.
BTW, money-wise they're fine until 2024 as that's when their TV contract expires. However, they have until 2021-2022 to fix it as their new TV contract will be a fraction of the current one unless they fix this.
This is why I suggested the format change. Make it a team sport instead of an individual sport. It would make it a lot more interesting. It works for cycling and that is just guys riding bicycles.
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 05:53:38 PM
This is why I suggested the format change. Make it a team sport instead of an individual sport. It would make it a lot more interesting. It works for cycling and that is just guys riding bicycles.
You sayin' you wanna see a lil' bit of that ole' Shake and Bake on those warm Talladega nights?
How about for a little fun we strap a kilo of Colombian bang bang to the bottom of the cars and see how long it takes 'fore the 5-0 show up?
Don't they have teams already? Kerry's proposal would just make it out in the open, instead of the [possible] fiction that each driver is out for themselves, when they [probably] working with each other.
I think they should use sentient cars - no drivers. Disney has managed three fairly successful films with that idea, so it must be a winner.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 16, 2019, 08:39:38 PM
Don't they have teams already? Kerry's proposal would just make it out in the open, instead of the [possible] fiction that each driver is out for themselves, when they [probably] working with each other.
They do have teams but only in the capacity that they share a garage and have a common owner. On the track there are no teams.
Quote from: Adam White on July 17, 2019, 05:17:06 AM
I think they should use sentient cars - no drivers. Disney has managed three fairly successful films with that idea, so it must be a winner.
You know, a race where all cars were identical, except the teams built their own AI to drive the car might be kind on interesting...
Quote from: acme54321 on July 17, 2019, 07:50:36 AM
Quote from: Adam White on July 17, 2019, 05:17:06 AM
I think they should use sentient cars - no drivers. Disney has managed three fairly successful films with that idea, so it must be a winner.
You know, a race where all cars were identical, except the teams built their own AI to drive the car might be kind on interesting...
It couldn't be any worse!
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 05:53:38 PM
This is why I suggested the format change. Make it a team sport instead of an individual sport. It would make it a lot more interesting. It works for cycling and that is just guys riding bicycles.
Personally I think the best thing NASCAR could do is throw away their existing rules and bring back the rules and format from 1999, with some safety rules added but I'm far from a NASCAR expert. You might be right.
Quote from: Steve on July 17, 2019, 09:38:00 AM
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 05:53:38 PM
This is why I suggested the format change. Make it a team sport instead of an individual sport. It would make it a lot more interesting. It works for cycling and that is just guys riding bicycles.
Personally I think the best thing NASCAR could do is throw away their existing rules and bring back the rules and format from 1999, with some safety rules added but I'm far from a NASCAR expert. You might be right.
I don't follow NASCAR at all, but in my daily sports-themed news, didn't I hear that they were removing restrictor plates for one of the long tracks this year? Talledega or Daytona?
Two more things to add:
1) Unless a car was involved in an accident or suffered mechanical failure, no pitting during Yellow flags. Green flag stops only. This would facility the team approach where everyone on the team pits together
2) Caution laps don't count. No simultaneous Green, white, checker finishes.
Kerry, even as one who doesn't follow NASCAR, I wholeheartedly agree with your second point. Perhaps there should be have to be "X" (5?) clean laps before the checker flag. And, this is where I suspect some "teamwork" takes place now. Say Billy Bob, the star driver of Team Kerry, is leading with a couple laps to go, but Steve is gaining on him. Team Kerry's newest member, Randy Rookie, is with a group of cars a couple laps down. Randy gets a signal from Team Kerry, and he taps the fender of another driver, causing a wreck, and a Green White Checker finish for a Billy Bob win.
Of course, I may be way out in left field (or would 'the infield' be better for racing?), as I know nothing about how all that works.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 17, 2019, 10:09:48 AM
Quote from: Steve on July 17, 2019, 09:38:00 AM
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 05:53:38 PM
This is why I suggested the format change. Make it a team sport instead of an individual sport. It would make it a lot more interesting. It works for cycling and that is just guys riding bicycles.
Personally I think the best thing NASCAR could do is throw away their existing rules and bring back the rules and format from 1999, with some safety rules added but I'm far from a NASCAR expert. You might be right.
I don't follow NASCAR at all, but in my daily sports-themed news, didn't I hear that they were removing restrictor plates for one of the long tracks this year? Talledega or Daytona?
Using my rules restrictor plates wouldn't be necessary because fuel economy would be as important as speed. If you could only stop for gas during green flags one less stop could be a big deal.
They're not for fuel economy.
They 'restrict' the amount of air through the intake to act as essentially a governor to prevent the cars from going over a certain speed under their own power.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 18, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
They're not for fuel economy.
They 'restrict' the amount of air through the intake to act as essentially a governor to prevent the cars from going over a certain speed under their own power.
Yes, but speed uses more fuel exponentially. If they want to increase fuel economy they will slow down on their own. The restrictor plate won't be needed.
Quote from: Kerry on July 18, 2019, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 18, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
They're not for fuel economy.
They 'restrict' the amount of air through the intake to act as essentially a governor to prevent the cars from going over a certain speed under their own power.
Yes, but speed uses more fuel exponentially. If they want to increase fuel economy they will slow down on their own. The restrictor plate won't be needed.
This one I can't get behind. A full pit stop (4 tires and Fuel) takes about 20 seconds, and at a race like the Daytona 500 they'll need to pit 4 times assuming no issues. In order to somehow save enough fuel to only need 3 stops, you'd have to slow the car down dramatically-way more than a 20 second lap difference.
Quote from: Steve on July 17, 2019, 09:38:00 AM
Quote from: Kerry on July 16, 2019, 05:53:38 PM
This is why I suggested the format change. Make it a team sport instead of an individual sport. It would make it a lot more interesting. It works for cycling and that is just guys riding bicycles.
Personally I think the best thing NASCAR could do is throw away their existing rules and bring back the rules and format from 1999, with some safety rules added but I'm far from a NASCAR expert. You might be right.
The best thing they could do would be go back to what they were doing in the glory days. Go fast and crash big. It pays the bills.
Quote from: Steve on July 18, 2019, 12:30:19 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 18, 2019, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 18, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
They're not for fuel economy.
They 'restrict' the amount of air through the intake to act as essentially a governor to prevent the cars from going over a certain speed under their own power.
Yes, but speed uses more fuel exponentially. If they want to increase fuel economy they will slow down on their own. The restrictor plate won't be needed.
This one I can't get behind. A full pit stop (4 tires and Fuel) takes about 20 seconds, and at a race like the Daytona 500 they'll need to pit 4 times assuming no issues. In order to somehow save enough fuel to only need 3 stops, you'd have to slow the car down dramatically-way more than a 20 second lap difference.
It takes over a full lap to get back up to speed at Daytona, and that doesn't include the time from first letting off the gas to pit in the first place. That extra stop would put you a lap down which is practically impossible to make up on a superspeedway.
Quote from: Kerry on July 18, 2019, 02:16:41 PM
Quote from: Steve on July 18, 2019, 12:30:19 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 18, 2019, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 18, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
They're not for fuel economy.
They 'restrict' the amount of air through the intake to act as essentially a governor to prevent the cars from going over a certain speed under their own power.
Yes, but speed uses more fuel exponentially. If they want to increase fuel economy they will slow down on their own. The restrictor plate won't be needed.
This one I can't get behind. A full pit stop (4 tires and Fuel) takes about 20 seconds, and at a race like the Daytona 500 they'll need to pit 4 times assuming no issues. In order to somehow save enough fuel to only need 3 stops, you'd have to slow the car down dramatically-way more than a 20 second lap difference.
It takes over a full lap to get back up to speed at Daytona, and that doesn't include the time from first letting off the gas to pit in the first place. That extra stop would put you a lap down which is practically impossible to make up on a superspeedway.
But a lap takes 45 second to complete, going 200mph (keeping numbers round as most laps are between 190 and 195) True that it takes time to get up to that speed, but in order to save any amount of fuel, you'd have to slow down dramatically. You're taking about being able to complete the race with 3 stops vs. 4. A NASCAR fuel tank is 18.5 gallons (so they get about 6mpg). This means you'd need to get 67 laps out of a tank of gas (167 miles vs. 125) so you'd have to get almost 9mpg. In order to gain a 50% improvement in fuel economy, you'd have to slow down a ton (that fuel economy is probably caution lap performance). You'd be lapped likely every 7-8 laps at those speeds, far worse than stopping one more time.
You might be right but consumption isn't linear with speed. With restrictor plates they go about 195. Bill Elliott went 212 without a restrictor plate. How many less laps can you go at 212 than at 195?
Quote from: Kerry on July 18, 2019, 03:29:53 PM
You might be right but consumption isn't linear with speed. With restrictor plates they go about 195. Bill Elliott went 212 without a restrictor plate. How many less laps can you go at 212 than at 195?
I feel like this is a middle school math problem.
I mean 45 seconds is 200mph at Daytona. 50 seconds is 180mph. So, if driver 1 was going 200 mph and driver 2 was going 180, driver 2 would get lapped on lap 9. By lap 50 you be lapped 5 times by going 20mph slower.
I think you miss understood me. I surmised that without restrictor plates they would still do 195 for the milage benefit. The need for fuel economy would replace the restrictor plate. I'm not a NASCAR fuel expert so I don't know the answer.