I spent the last few days in Atlanta and am shocked about how bad the traffic has gotten. I lived there for 5 years several years ago and it was bad then, but it is so far out of hand I have to wonder how much longer Atlanta can continue to lie to themselves. They have squeezed every last drop out of their road network that I don't see how they can continue. Roads with enough space for 3 lanes now have 4 (some of which are more narrow than an SUV). The shoulders of the interstate have been turned into lanes during rush hour. There are car pool lanes, rideshare parking lots, and van shares. On ramps are metered. They have express lanes. City streets have reversible lanes. Tolls are congested priced. On-street parking has been removed to make way for an additional lane of traffic. All that and traffic is worse than ever.
What is possibly left for them to do to keep the automobile as a viable transit option? There is simply no room left to add more capacity.
I completely agree. I don't get it at all. It also seems like the moves where a few areas incorporated themselves into separate cities (Sandy Springs as an example) might have made things worse.
I was staying over there for a wedding in May. The crazy thing was the size of of the office buildings in one area, yet nothing else was over there. So, Friday afternoon the place was a disaster trying to get around. On Saturday and Sunday you'd have thought the walking dead had come through - it was unreal (side note, some REALLY nice hotels have dirt cheap rates on the weekends). The lack of mixed use development was staggering.
With that said, State Farm is moving 10,000 employees in there for a regional hub so it's certainly not stopping development. While they are building a walkway to connect the building directly to the MARTA station, this only works if the employee lives a reasonable distance to the station on the other end.
MARTA hasn't been expanded since....ever. Clearly if the future of Atlanta is the automobile then Atlanta is done. They can add all the office buildings and jobs they want, but new people to the ATL are going to find it increasing hard to find housing unless they want to pay a fortune for it. Atlanta is going to have to switch to a very aggressive rail strategy at some point which leads me to wonder, if rail is the ultimate solution then why even waste money on making the car the center piece of their transit strategy for the past 30 years? Think what kind of rail system they could have had by now. Something for Jax to think about while we are busy adding toll lanes.
Having extensive rail transit in places like Boston and Chicago haven't prevented them from having empirically worse auto traffic congestion than Atlanta. I wouldn't be quick to assume things would be different in Atlanta if they had that infrastructure.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on July 20, 2019, 03:36:21 PM
Having extensive rail transit in places like Boston and Chicago haven't prevented them from having empirically worse auto traffic congestion than Atlanta. I wouldn't be quick to assume things would be different in Atlanta if they had that infrastructure.
It doesn't prevent traffic but it provides people a choice. In Chicago, whether by Bus or L, there's a reasonable transit option basically anywhere in the city limits. Atlanta doesn't have that. I'd also say that outside of the LA area, Atlanta is the only city to have "tier 1" traffic and no reasonable transit option for a large number of its residents.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on July 20, 2019, 03:36:21 PM
Having extensive rail transit in places like Boston and Chicago haven't prevented them from having empirically worse auto traffic congestion than Atlanta. I wouldn't be quick to assume things would be different in Atlanta if they had that infrastructure.
Can you imagine how bad their traffic would be without extensive rail transit?
Mass transit is to traffic congestion as aspirin is to headaches. It only eliminates the pain of the person taking it. If I take the train to work I don't have to deal with traffic, but an empty spot doesn't magically appear on the road where my car would have been.
Quote from: Kerry on September 04, 2019, 03:48:31 PM
Mass transit is to traffic congestion as aspirin is to headaches. It only eliminates the pain of the person taking it. If I take the train to work I don't have to deal with traffic, but an empty spot doesn't magically appear on the road where my car would have been.
No, but one fewer car is on the road. En masse, that leads to "less bad" traffic, which was my point.
Where I live, traffic worsens dramatically when the train drivers go on strike.
This may help... ever hear of the " Marchetti Constant"?
Pretty good explanation...
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/08/commute-time-city-size-transportation-urban-planning-history/597055/
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 05, 2019, 01:40:35 PM
This may help... ever hear of the " Marchetti Constant"?
Pretty good explanation...
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/08/commute-time-city-size-transportation-urban-planning-history/597055/
Interesting read, thanks BT. The ads were a *bit* annoying, though.
It takes me somewhere between 60-90 minutes to get to work every day :(
Quote from: Kerry on September 04, 2019, 03:48:31 PM
Mass transit is to traffic congestion as aspirin is to headaches. It only eliminates the pain of the person taking it. If I take the train to work I don't have to deal with traffic, but an empty spot doesn't magically appear on the road where my car would have been.
I'm glad you've had good enough experience(s) with mass transit that you'd see it as an aspirin.
From my commuting experiences with a handful of mass transit system, you're replacing a headache ( driving ) with a migraine ( public transit ).
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on September 10, 2019, 03:26:15 PM
Quote from: Kerry on September 04, 2019, 03:48:31 PM
Mass transit is to traffic congestion as aspirin is to headaches. It only eliminates the pain of the person taking it. If I take the train to work I don't have to deal with traffic, but an empty spot doesn't magically appear on the road where my car would have been.
I'm glad you've had good enough experience(s) with mass transit that you'd see it as an aspirin.
From my commuting experiences with a handful of mass transit system, you're replacing a headache ( driving ) with a migraine ( public transit ).
Ooh, now that's a hot take around here!
As for my commute, Avondale to Southpoint, 15 minutes in the morning, 25 minutes at worst, no worse than 45 minutes home on the worst days, typically 30.
JTA buses would take me 3 hours. No transit for me for now
Quote from: Peter Griffin on September 10, 2019, 03:59:35 PM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on September 10, 2019, 03:26:15 PM
Quote from: Kerry on September 04, 2019, 03:48:31 PM
Mass transit is to traffic congestion as aspirin is to headaches. It only eliminates the pain of the person taking it. If I take the train to work I don't have to deal with traffic, but an empty spot doesn't magically appear on the road where my car would have been.
I'm glad you've had good enough experience(s) with mass transit that you'd see it as an aspirin.
From my commuting experiences with a handful of mass transit system, you're replacing a headache ( driving ) with a migraine ( public transit ).
Ooh, now that's a hot take around here!
As for my commute, Avondale to Southpoint, 15 minutes in the morning, 25 minutes at worst, no worse than 45 minutes home on the worst days, typically 30.
JTA buses would take me 3 hours. No transit for me for now
If I drove to work, it would take me over two hours (at least). And I'd have to pay for parking. As it stands, I'm looking at about 1 hour 15 minutes.
I guess it depends where you are.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on September 10, 2019, 04:12:48 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 10, 2019, 04:05:47 PM
I guess it depends where you are.
Exactly
Years ago, I was living in Riverside and worked at the BoA campus off Southside Blvd. I had to take the bus to work a couple of times and it took about two hours.
yeah IDK where I got 4 hours from, Google Transit has me at 1:20 in which involves a half mile walk along Jefferson St in Lavilla. I've been meaning to try it one day for "fun" but have a hard time convincing myself to be at the bus stop at 6AM to do it...
Quote from: Peter Griffin on September 11, 2019, 08:20:35 AM
yeah IDK where I got 4 hours from, Google Transit has me at 1:20 in which involves a half mile walk along Jefferson St in Lavilla. I've been meaning to try it one day for "fun" but have a hard time convincing myself to be at the bus stop at 6AM to do it...
To be fair, it was probably closer to 2 1/2 hours - especially when including the dangerous, sidewalk-less journey from the Avenues Mall to my office.
When I worked at Convergys on Baymeadows Way, I went through a period where I was car-less, too. I would have to catch the bus at night and ended up getting off at the foot of the Acosta bridge and walking the rest of the way - it was way quicker than trying to transfer. Good times.
Quote from: Kerry on July 08, 2019, 05:49:23 PM
MARTA hasn't been expanded since....ever. Clearly if the future of Atlanta is the automobile then Atlanta is done. They can add all the office buildings and jobs they want, but new people to the ATL are going to find it increasing hard to find housing unless they want to pay a fortune for it. Atlanta is going to have to switch to a very aggressive rail strategy at some point which leads me to wonder, if rail is the ultimate solution then why even waste money on making the car the center piece of their transit strategy for the past 30 years? Think what kind of rail system they could have had by now. Something for Jax to think about while we are busy adding toll lanes.
I actually agree with this. Sure it will take a bit to get a viable rail infrastructure in place, but these toll lanes aren't cheap and they provide very marginal benefit. Rail could eventually become transformational and the incremental costs to expand a functioning system are in line with something like 9B, the crazy amount of stuff they've done for blanding and wells road, the continual widening of I-10, etc. Each time we discuss a new toll road or expressway, rail should be in the conversation.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 11, 2019, 09:49:42 AM
Quote from: Kerry on July 08, 2019, 05:49:23 PM
MARTA hasn't been expanded since....ever. Clearly if the future of Atlanta is the automobile then Atlanta is done. They can add all the office buildings and jobs they want, but new people to the ATL are going to find it increasing hard to find housing unless they want to pay a fortune for it. Atlanta is going to have to switch to a very aggressive rail strategy at some point which leads me to wonder, if rail is the ultimate solution then why even waste money on making the car the center piece of their transit strategy for the past 30 years? Think what kind of rail system they could have had by now. Something for Jax to think about while we are busy adding toll lanes.
I actually agree with this. Sure it will take a bit to get a viable rail infrastructure in place, but these toll lanes aren't cheap and they provide very marginal benefit. Rail could eventually become transformational and the incremental costs to expand a functioning system are in line with something like 9B, the crazy amount of stuff they've done for blanding and wells road, the continual widening of I-10, etc. Each time we discuss a new toll road or expressway, rail should be in the conversation.
It's interesting to consider the difference in approach taken by different cities. In London (yeah, I know...), TfL actively works to try to discourage people from driving and convince them to use public transport instead. Obviously, widening roads (and building new roads) is rarely an option, so they have to do what they can to get people to use other methods of transit.
Spent the Labor Day weekend in DC and stayed out in Reston. Took the train into the City everyday. It takes about the same time as car but with no parking hassels. In October we are headed to Seattle and I specifically selected hotels close to train stations so we don't have to drive into downtown.
It was kind of funny because my wife (who has miminal experience with mass transit) said we should have a rail system in Jax. I then explained to her all the reasons rail won't work in Jax.