Metro Jacksonville

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What can we expect to see once Mayor Lenny Curry completes his $22 million plan to demolish the Jacksonville Landing? Here's a look at ten city-owned fields in the Downtown area showing off exactly what we're getting! #winning!

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/10-grass-fields-to-get-you-pumped-for-the-landing-demo/

Hard to beat this poignant portrayal of our glorious downtown green spaces. Well done!

I had to share this one on Facebook.

Bravo sir.

Mayor Curry's Downtown Rewilding Program has been a massive success.

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Great Field reporting on the empty fields downtown.  With the author be fielding any questions from fans? Maybe at a Jaxson open Mike night? 

This article is Jacksonville's equivalent of the Cleveland tourism video. Well done!  ;D

Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 31, 2019, 09:51:28 AM
Great Field reporting on the empty fields downtown.  With the author be fielding any questions from fans? Maybe at a Jaxson open Mike night? 

Hosted by Mike Field of the Jaxson.

These are simply breathtaking photos.   

My question to Mike is how did you get all the people to move out of the photo so you can take the picture?

Hilarious... yet appropriate...  ;D ::)

Article of the year. Don't @ me

To heck with heading to Orlando or Tampa for getaway weekends. Booking.com for DT Jax.. Booking.YAH

Mike Field is not clever enough to write this article.

I did not write this, but can empathize with the sentiment behind it.

This is practically Onion-level. You don't do sarcasm a whole lot, but when you do it, you do it really well.

https://www.jacksonville.com/photogallery/LK/20190531/NEWS/531009994/PH/1

Absurd how much potential this complex had and still has, only to see it all flushed away due to politics.

I can't help but look at that line at Coastal Cookies and wonder what role does race play in the underlying perception behind the Landing and its potential? Same applies to the general ban on fishing from the riverwalk through all of downtown.

We are allegedly operating in the greatest economy in the history of all economies (paraphrased) and this is what passes for progress in Jacksonville. Imagine what will happen when the next recession strikes.

And yet... apparently... Hooters will be allowed to stay until October...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 31, 2019, 05:09:53 PM
And yet... apparently... Hooters will be allowed to stay until October...

their lease deal with COJ goes through the end of October, but from what I've heard, they will be closing much sooner (maybe in the next few weeks).

Quote from: Todd_Parker on May 31, 2019, 04:15:06 PM
We are allegedly operating in the greatest economy in the history of all economies (paraphrased) and this is what passes for progress in Jacksonville. Imagine what will happen when the next recession strikes.

Darn good point.  Japan has the lost decade, Jax might string together about 3 or 4 of those in a row.

If I may I'd like to play the devil's advocate here.  Many of the businesses at the Landing have month to month agreements with no safeguards for this predicament.  The people with longer leases get the buy outs, the people with month to month get little to none.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 31, 2019, 10:33:46 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 31, 2019, 05:09:53 PM
And yet... apparently... Hooters will be allowed to stay until October...

their lease deal with COJ goes through the end of October, but from what I've heard, they will be closing much sooner (maybe in the next few weeks).

That is correct. Their early buyout was spelled out in the long-term lease extension they signed a few years back before the space was remodeled... and included a provision for (I believe) continued tenancy of 180 days after acceptance of the early termination payment.   

Quote from: thelakelander on May 31, 2019, 04:07:28 PM
I can't help but look at that line at Coastal Cookies and wonder what role does race play in the underlying perception behind the Landing and its potential?

For the mayor, I honestly think race has nothing to do with his negative opinion of the Landing.

Seems like a pretty cut and dry political grudge dating back to the election against Alvin Brown.

For the average Jacksonville citizen (or city council member) in support of the demolition however, I'd say it's unfortunately probably higher than it should be, and something that doesn't really get talked about as much as it should.

You hear too many people talk about the Landing with the same undertones that they use when discussing the Regency Mall, or Hemming Park, or the Main Library, or the Skyway/Jax mass transit. Using veiled language about not feeling comfortable sending people there.

Jacksonville's made a lot of progress in the time that I've been here, but it still feels like we have this bad tendency to associate heavy minority presence with blight.

Got back in from New York on Wednesday night and I was on a JIA shuttle back to my car. Someone on the shuttle was passing through Jacksonville on their way to Savannah and asked the bus driver if there was a Dunkin Donuts nearby where they could get coffee before hitting the interstate. The driver said, "There's one on Dunn Avenue, but you never want to find yourself on Dunn Avenue after sundown. You might not come back alive."

I think that bus driver would probably favor the Landing demolition.

I don't normally walk into grassy fields but when I do, I go to Jax.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 01, 2019, 07:36:35 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 31, 2019, 04:07:28 PM
I can't help but look at that line at Coastal Cookies and wonder what role does race play in the underlying perception behind the Landing and its potential?

For the mayor, I honestly think race has nothing to do with his negative opinion of the Landing.

Seems like a pretty cut and dry political grudge dating back to the election against Alvin Brown.

For the average Jacksonville citizen (or city council member) in support of the demolition however, I'd say it's unfortunately probably higher than it should be, and something that doesn't really get talked about as much as it should.

You hear too many people talk about the Landing with the same undertones that they use when discussing the Regency Mall, or Hemming Park, or the Main Library, or the Skyway/Jax mass transit. Using veiled language about not feeling comfortable sending people there.

Jacksonville's made a lot of progress in the time that I've been here, but it still feels like we have this bad tendency to associate heavy minority presence with blight.

Got back in from New York on Wednesday night and I was on a JIA shuttle back to my car. Someone on the shuttle was passing through Jacksonville on their way to Savannah and asked the bus driver if there was a Dunkin Donuts nearby where they could get coffee before hitting the interstate. The driver said, "There's one on Dunn Avenue, but you never want to find yourself on Dunn Avenue after sundown. You might not come back alive."

I think that bus driver would probably favor the Landing demolition.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to the mayor specifically. Everything is politics with that group. Pretty sad since there is nothing wrong with Dunn Avenue. However, regarding the general conversation as a whole, when it comes down to adaptive reuse vs demo with no plan, I can't keep up with the number of veiled references I've heard people say about a situation that may be as simple as being an environment where minorities are the majority....as support for leveling and leaving a passive grass field in its place. I recall Aaron Bowman mentioning something similar where he encouraged people to stay away from the Landing...and that's coming from a councilmember and someone representing JAXUSA Partnership! If this is the case, some will have a rude awakening coming with downtown's and the entire city's future in general. Our demographic make up is rapidly becoming more brown and culturally diverse. It's time we advance into the 21st century.

There are many reasons why the Landing site will likely be vacant for a while, but here's just one:

The City wants FDOT to take down the the Main Street Bridge on-ramp from Independent Drive - doubt the City will RFP the property until that happens - and FDOT hasn't programmed the project so it is at least one year off.

Of course the City could fund the project outright (with FDOT permission) - but that would just add more cost to the Landing demolition project :(

The third reason is a RFP doesn't actually mean moving forward. All responses being rejected are quite common in this town. Just recently, we can say this with bike share, the convention center and 324 Broad Street.

Reading the article, I vacillate between laughing (at creative captions on the "top ten" list) and crying (at the undeniable absence of leadership and vision) affecting us all.  Remarkably persuasive use of irony. Ugh!

I'm sure someone will use this as justification for tearing down the Landing.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/video-appears-to-show-brawl-at-mavericks-at-jacksonville-landing/954622672

^ I had the same thought.  "See, the Landing is full of hoodlums, so it must be torn down."

Lol, you can turn city hall, SJTC and your average parking lot into a brawl scene if you're giving Jaxsons free alcohol!

It's just the quirks of having to live in a throwaway society. Throw it all away for the sake of wondering where it all went and why? But instead of tumbleweeds rolling across the plains, we have Dixie cups and soda cans! Modern image for the modern mind.

One might say when looking at this photo, "Wow Jagsdrew, what a beautiful plot of land in Baker County you have!" But really this is Downtown Jacksonville on the corner of Bay St. and Main looking west.
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Saw this beauty while taking pictures for a Pearl Court neighborhood article. I can't believe this is considered a neighborhood park....

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There it is:

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190604/mavericks-ordered-to-leave-jacksonville-landing-immediately-following-brawl

Quote from: Jagsdrew on June 04, 2019, 07:53:40 AM
One might say when looking at this photo, "Wow Jagsdrew, what a beautiful plot of land in Baker County you have!" But really this is Downtown Jacksonville on the corner of Bay St. and Main looking west.
(https://www.joanburton.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/flight-above-grass-field-blue-cloudy-sky_rn0rfffpg_thumbnail-full01.png)

Such potential! #JaxOnTheRise!

Don't be a hater...

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(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Pensacola-May-2019/i-HKvJwGz/0/4b46162d/L/20190518_131205-L.jpg)
#winning #comingsoon

(https://realwomen1.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/field-frolic.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on June 04, 2019, 09:27:54 AM
Don't be a hater...

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(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Pensacola-May-2019/i-HKvJwGz/0/4b46162d/L/20190518_131205-L.jpg)
#winning #comingsoon

This was his usual Sunday Night Prayer verse. Disciple Drake

Quote from: thelakelander on June 01, 2019, 09:14:48 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 01, 2019, 07:36:35 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 31, 2019, 04:07:28 PM
I can't help but look at that line at Coastal Cookies and wonder what role does race play in the underlying perception behind the Landing and its potential?

For the mayor, I honestly think race has nothing to do with his negative opinion of the Landing.

Seems like a pretty cut and dry political grudge dating back to the election against Alvin Brown.

For the average Jacksonville citizen (or city council member) in support of the demolition however, I'd say it's unfortunately probably higher than it should be, and something that doesn't really get talked about as much as it should.

You hear too many people talk about the Landing with the same undertones that they use when discussing the Regency Mall, or Hemming Park, or the Main Library, or the Skyway/Jax mass transit. Using veiled language about not feeling comfortable sending people there.

Jacksonville's made a lot of progress in the time that I've been here, but it still feels like we have this bad tendency to associate heavy minority presence with blight.

Got back in from New York on Wednesday night and I was on a JIA shuttle back to my car. Someone on the shuttle was passing through Jacksonville on their way to Savannah and asked the bus driver if there was a Dunkin Donuts nearby where they could get coffee before hitting the interstate. The driver said, "There's one on Dunn Avenue, but you never want to find yourself on Dunn Avenue after sundown. You might not come back alive."

I think that bus driver would probably favor the Landing demolition.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to the mayor specifically. Everything is politics with that group. Pretty sad since there is nothing wrong with Dunn Avenue. However, regarding the general conversation as a whole, when it comes down to adaptive reuse vs demo with no plan, I can't keep up with the number of veiled references I've heard people say about a situation that may be as simple as being an environment where minorities are the majority....as support for leveling and leaving a passive grass field in its place. I recall Aaron Bowman mentioning something similar where he encouraged people to stay away from the Landing...and that's coming from a councilmember and someone representing JAXUSA Partnership! If this is the case, some will have a rude awakening coming with downtown's and the entire city's future in general. Our demographic make up is rapidly becoming more brown and culturally diverse. It's time we advance into the 21st century.

Not sure if you have ever been married or not, or intend to at some point in the future...but Rule #1 is don't tell the other person how they are supposed to feel.  If the bus driver thinks Dunn Ave is dangerous it is in fact dangerous.  The same goes for the Landing.  If we want walkable urbanism, which requires people to participate, then we not only have to make the area safe, we have to also make people think it safe.

I can tell you for a fact that dead people inside the building on multiple occasions doesn't make people feel safe.  The vast majority of people don't know anyone who has been shot, and even fewer know someone who has been murdered, and they don't want to hang out in an environment where that becomes a possibility.

Calling people closet racist isn't going build walkable urbanism in Jax.

^^ I agree that you do have to deal with the PERCEPTIONS as well as the reality, of the Landing and DT generally. However, there are many people that if asked why they perceive someplace as unsafe, could not cite a specific incident that happened either to them or that they read about. The appearance and demograpic makeup of the area are solely what they are basing their opinion on.  These same people often are very uninformed of the level of crime that occurs in the areas they perceive as safe.   

Quote from: Kerry on June 04, 2019, 11:54:55 AM
Not sure if you have ever been married or not, or intend to at some point in the future...but Rule #1 is don't tell the other person how they are supposed to feel.  If the bus driver thinks Dunn Ave is dangerous it is in fact dangerous.  The same goes for the Landing.  If we want walkable urbanism, which requires people to participate, then we not only have to make the area safe, we have to also make people think it safe.

I'll take a pass on the lecture when fears and perspectives start falling into the area of being racially, culturally insensitive and outright ignorant. There's a big different between the principles of walkable urbanism (or whatever we want to call it) and the need for some to break out their homogeneous bubble or at least at a city level remove those biases from the planning process.

QuoteI can tell you for a fact that dead people inside the building on multiple occasions doesn't make people feel safe.  The vast majority of people don't know anyone who has been shot, and even fewer know someone who has been murdered, and they don't want to hang out in an environment where that becomes a possibility.

A random shooting by an out-of-town gamer at a location where there are already locally based racially insensitive viewpoints, leads to a certain perspective as illustrated by what you've heard about the Landing. There was also a random shooting that left just as many people dead near St Johns Town Center last summer. However, those same people don't think twice about heading to Cheesecake Factory, Red Robin, Publix, Target and everything else off Town Center Parkway. Why...perception, not necessarily reality.  By the same token, I hear some parents that want to keep their kids away from some sports like football because they think its too dangerous. Yet, the same people will put their kids on I-95 multiple times a day, when statistically, driving on the interstate is about one of the most dangerous things one can do. Looking at the crash data, deaths are piling up all over our highways but the general perception is that they're safe.

QuoteCalling people closet racist isn't going build walkable urbanism in Jax.

Not facing or acknowledging but forcing policy and planning decisions based off racially insensitive and outright inaccurate perceptions isn't going to help either.  Especially since our demographics are trending to becoming more diverse. Downtown is already hole now because of years of not only not embracing local culture seen as too black, too southern, too redneck, too working class, but actively working to restrict and eliminate some of these things from the area. You want real walkable urbanism and vibrancy. It's easy but it involves removing the barriers and working against the perceptions and biases that limit multicultural inclusion.

Quote from: Kerry on June 04, 2019, 11:54:55 AM
If the bus driver thinks Dunn Ave is dangerous it is in fact dangerous.

I'm not going to touch most of this post, but will touch this line, as it's incorrect. If the bus driver thinks Dunn Avenue is dangerous, it is not necessarily in fact dangerous. If the bus driver thinks Dunn Avenue is dangerous, the only thing that means is that the bus driver thinks it is, and Dunn Avenue MAY have a perception from others of being dangerous.

My point is if there is a legit crime issue, then the remedies for that are MUCH different than if an area has a perception of being dangerous.

The St Johns Town Center shootings only reinforced what people already thought.  Most people saw it as just bringing the Landing problems to SJTC.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.firstcoastnews.com/amp/article%3fsection=news&subsection=crime&headline=police-identify-3-teens-killed-in-shooting-in-st-johns-town-center-area&contentId=77-561979341

Quote from: Kerry on June 04, 2019, 02:47:53 PM
The St Johns Town Center shootings only reinforced what people already thought.  Most people saw it as just bringing the Landing problems to SJTC.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.firstcoastnews.com/amp/article%3fsection=news&subsection=crime&headline=police-identify-3-teens-killed-in-shooting-in-st-johns-town-center-area&contentId=77-561979341

I can't even begin to comprehend the lunacy of this post.

Quote from: Steve on June 04, 2019, 02:35:23 PM

Quote from: Kerry on June 04, 2019, 11:54:55 AM
If the bus driver thinks Dunn Ave is dangerous it is in fact dangerous.

I'm not going to touch most of this post, but will touch this line, as it's incorrect. If the bus driver thinks Dunn Avenue is dangerous, it is not necessarily in fact dangerous. If the bus driver thinks Dunn Avenue is dangerous, the only thing that means is that the bus driver thinks it is, and Dunn Avenue MAY have a perception from others of being dangerous.

My point is if there is a legit crime issue, then the remedies for that are MUCH different than if an area has a perception of being dangerous.

If you have some time for Philosophy and want to play along answer me this, how do you know I exists?

Quote from: Kerry on June 04, 2019, 02:57:10 PM

Quote from: Steve on June 04, 2019, 02:35:23 PM

Quote from: Kerry on June 04, 2019, 11:54:55 AM
If the bus driver thinks Dunn Ave is dangerous it is in fact dangerous.

I'm not going to touch most of this post, but will touch this line, as it's incorrect. If the bus driver thinks Dunn Avenue is dangerous, it is not necessarily in fact dangerous. If the bus driver thinks Dunn Avenue is dangerous, the only thing that means is that the bus driver thinks it is, and Dunn Avenue MAY have a perception from others of being dangerous.

My point is if there is a legit crime issue, then the remedies for that are MUCH different than if an area has a perception of being dangerous.

If you have some time for Philosophy and want to play along answer me this, how do you know I exists?

It's not philosophy at all. Does the random bus driver have a criminology degree or is this person up to date on crime statistics. I'm going to guess no.

The entire point of my post is while perception is important, solving a perception issue about crime is different than cleaning up actual crime.

I get that - and perception IS reality.  You aren't going to solve the perception issue by calling people who feel that way closet racists.  Many times a place has to feel more safe than it actually is, not the other way around.  People who are afriad to fly are far more likely to die on the way to the airport but they perceive the exact opposite.

Disney is the ultimate example.  It is perceived to be a safe place, when in fact lots of people are killed, injured, sexually assaulted, and robbed there all the time.  How does Disney do it?  They control the media access and don't keep records.  I was involved in an accident on Disney property and the Disney security didn't even want to take down my name.  I was also injured at the Magic Kingdom and again - no paperwork or any info required.

Quote from: Kerry on June 04, 2019, 03:40:05 PM
I get that - and perception IS reality.  You aren't going to solve the perception issue by calling people who feel that way closet racists.  Many times a place has to feel more safe than it actually is, not the other way around.  People who are afriad to fly are far more likely to die on the way to the airport but they perceive the exact opposite.

We do have racial issues in this town that we do need to be open and honest about. There is obviously different worlds of Jacksonville and that's definitely a problem when it comes to how downtown and urban core revitalization has been approached. However, being open and honest offers the opportunity for an inclusive future. Putting cultural, social and historical reality aside, I'm not of the camp that would advocate one spend much energy trying to change biases and perceptions based on pure ignorance. You don't want to fly. Fine. Drive. You don't want to be in the city because you're afraid of being around too many brown people. Fine. Go where the brown people aren't at. We have enough real life issues and challenges to deal with that trying to pull someone's head out of the sand, when they're fine being there. No need to raze and rebuild Dunn Avenue because some bus driver is afraid of a commercial corridor serving a middle class black area of town.

QuoteDisney is the ultimate example.  It is perceived to be a safe place, when in fact lots of people are killed, injured, sexually assaulted, and robbed there all the time.  How does Disney do it?  They control the media access and don't keep records.  I was involved in an accident on Disney property and the Disney security didn't even want to take down my name.  I was also injured at the Magic Kingdom and again - no paperwork or any info required.

Disney is a theme park. It isn't remotely applicable to a real life urban city that is home to the largest concentration of Gullah Geechee descendants in the country.

Quote from: Kerry on June 04, 2019, 03:40:05 PM
Disney is the ultimate example.  It is perceived to be a safe place, when in fact lots of people are killed, injured, sexually assaulted, and robbed there all the time.  How does Disney do it?  They control the media access and don't keep records.  I was involved in an accident on Disney property and the Disney security didn't even want to take down my name.  I was also injured at the Magic Kingdom and again - no paperwork or any info required.

People also can't just stroll into Disney.

 

QuoteWe do have racial issues in this town that we do need to be open and honest about. There is obviously different worlds of Jacksonville and that's definitely a problem when it comes to how downtown and urban core revitalization has been approached. However, being open and honest offers the opportunity for an inclusive future. Putting cultural, social and historical reality aside, I'm not of the camp that would advocate one spend much energy trying to change biases and perceptions based on pure ignorance. You don't want to fly. Fine. Drive. You don't want to be in the city because you're afraid of being around too many brown people. Fine. Go where the brown people aren't at. We have enough real life issues and challenges to deal with that trying to pull someone's head out of the sand, when they're fine being there. No need to raze and rebuild Dunn Avenue because some bus driver is afraid of a commercial corridor serving a middle class black area of town.

Even if we as a society denounced the whole cultural hierarchy concept, and casted out all the madness associated with the idea, people would still exhibit prejudices and have biased views against others. There's no way around it. If it were, the solution would've already been implemented. But, people are getting too much of a delight out it to quit. You can make more money out of civil unrest and despair than you can with peace.

I'm talking about accepting what the city has been, still is and will continue to be......accepting everything about its multicultural heritage and promoting it. Not social revolution, which is way beyond a local issue. Even with biased views of some, it's hard to say southern cities like New Orleans, Savannah and Charleston have not successfully marketed various aspects of their historical music, food and cultural scenes. Millions flock to them today because of it. Jax has just as much unique multicultural history and heritage. We're sitting on an inclusive economic gold mine but we'd rather talk town centers, Lot Js, ferris wheels, aquariums and ridiculous marketing slogans.

You are putting the cart before the horse.  You don't create walkable urbanism by first creating racial harmony.  You create racial harmony by first creating walkable urbanism.

As for Disney - 99% of Disney is free to access.  It isn't just 4 theme parks.

I'm not talking about creating racial harmony. That's more unlikely than that contextless walkable urbanism you speak of. For example, Durkeeville has been walkable and urban for nearly 100 years but it's probably 90% black which shares the bejesus out of some who aren't comfortable being in a social context where they are the minority for a change. Welcome to the south!

What I'm talking about specifically is living up to your own local identity, promoting, preserving, building upon your culture and owning it. This means striving to be inclusive and not catering to those with foolish perceptions and fears regarding the increasingly larger percentage of people that make up what we call Jacksonville.

As for Disney, I grew up 20 minutes from it. One of my active projects in Central Florida directly involves them and the movement of their employees. I can tell you a lot more than you need to know about how it works. It isn't applicable to compare a self contained theme park or anything in the Reedy Creek Improvement District with the interworkings of a nearly 200 year old municipality.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 04, 2019, 09:54:12 PMWe're sitting on an inclusive economic gold mine but we'd rather talk town centers, Lot Js, ferris wheels, aquariums and ridiculous marketing slogans.

(https://data.whicdn.com/images/323712843/original.gif)

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2019, 10:06:14 AMWhat I'm talking about specifically is living up to your own local identity, promoting, preserving, building upon your culture and owning it. This means striving to be inclusive and not catering to those with foolish perceptions and fears regarding the increasingly larger percentage of people that make up what we call Jacksonville.

This right here.

You might even be able to educate some of those fools along the way.

If this is just going to be "white people are afraid of black people" I'm bowing out.  Talk about your preconceived prejudices.

Bow out, you're totally missing the point or refusing to acknowledge it.

Then I must be missing your point, but trust me, I'm not missing it on purpose.

You can't seriously be thinking there are real people in St Louis saying, " Come on kids.  Let's go to Jacksonville and go to the Gullah Geechee Cultural Center".

Yes, there are real people who say let's go to NYC to visit Harlem. Let's go to St. Louis to visit the historic Busch brewery. Let's go to New Orleans and fill up on cajun, creole food and take in some jazz. There are people who grab a cheesesteak when visiting Philly, get a deep dish pizza in Chicago, lump crabcake in Baltimore. Others go to Miami because of the architecture and latin cosmopolitan atmosphere. Tampa has made a killing off of perserving and marketing its cigar making history and visitors do come specifically for it. I'm one of them and I've spent a good sum of money doing so over the years to experience local culture and sense of place that each locale offers. My advice to you would be instead of taking your visiting friends to town center or Applebees the next time in town, try a camel rider or opt for a plate of ribs from Jenkins. Take a ride down Heckscher and expose them to some authentic slices of Jax that can't be replicated in other places like OKC or Charlotte.

I think this conversation shows the problem with trying to diagnose problems that are rooted in perception rather than real world causes. Perception differs between people. Making an area seem more "safe" for some people may not make it seem safe or otherwise appealing for others.

Yes, worrying about appealing to opinionated perceptions and personal biases is a waste of time in the real world of urban development and revitalization. Actual issues that can be supported by factual data can be addressed and improved. Focus on those, the things that make your locale unique, the people who live there already and those who want to be there.

Btw, been to KC too. Spent about 20 minutes walking around the Power & Light District to see what it was all about. Then I got in my car and drove to Arthur Bryants BBQ for a real authentic KC meal as opposed to sitting down at P&L's Yard House or Chipotle. If you're ever in KC, check out City Market. Much better authentic experience. In St. Louis, skipped Ballpark Village altogether, spending more time on Washington Avenue, Central West End, Forest Park, Delmar and even East St. Louis! For those who think having a new smaller modern Landing next to the stadium is going to make much of a difference on DT vibrancy and its ability to pull people in.....think again. But to get back on topic. I don't think I've spent much time in any of these places checking out the vacant lots or waterfront lawns.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2019, 11:21:39 AM
Yes, there are real people who say let's go to NYC to visit Harlem. Let's go to St. Louis to visit the historic Busch brewery. Let's go to New Orleans and fill up on cajun, creole food and take in some jazz. There are people who grab a cheesesteak when visiting Philly, get a deep dish pizza in Chicago, lump crabcake in Baltimore. Others go to Miami because of the architecture and latin cosmopolitan atmosphere. Tampa has made a killing off of perserving and marketing its cigar making history and visitors do come specifically for it. I'm one of them and I've spent a good sum of money doing so over the years to experience local culture and sense of place that each locale offers. My advice to you would be instead of taking your visiting friends to town center or Applebees the next time in town, try a camel rider or opt for a platet of ribs from Jenkins. Take a ride down Heckscher and expose them to some authentic slices of Jax that can't be replicated in other places like OKC or Charlotte.

All those things you listed are synonymous with those places.  While Gullah Geechee relatives may in fact live in Jacksonville it is not our defining characteristic.  Hell, I've lived here for 16 years and I couldn't even tell you what our defining characteristic is other than maybe sprawl (like being the largest land area city is something to be proud of).  As for when visitors come from out of town, I do what 95% of the Jax people do - send them to St Augustine.

Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2019, 11:59:37 AM
While Gullah Geechee relatives may in fact live in Jacksonville it is not our defining characteristic.  Hell, I've lived here for 16 years and I couldn't even tell you what our defining characteristic is

I think you just made his point.

I'll agree that Jax is a blank slate when it comes to that subject, but the future of Jax is not going to be built on Black Culturalism - it just isn't.  Every Indian tribe has a cultural center but the vast majority of their tourism and income is derived from casinos.  Just look at Gatlinburg, TN and Cherokee, NC.  Both are at the gateways to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  One is a major tourist destination with millions of visitors and the other is sad and depressing.  Who knows though, maybe Cherokee was aiming for sad and depressing.  For everyone on the East Coast Cherokee is just a place you go through on the way to Gatlinburg.

On a related note - I just finished The Next American City and there was a section that talked about City Branding.  Of course I instantly tried to figure what image Jax conjured up in peoples minds and I just drew a blank.

You know how you become synonymous with your local quirks and history?

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2019, 10:06:14 AM
What I'm talking about specifically is living up to your own local identity, promoting, preserving, building upon your culture and owning it.

I'm a Gullah Geechee descendant and I can give you a history lesson there. That identity is all around you. You and a good chunk of newcomers to this area just don't know it. Spend anytime in the Northside of town and you'll find garlic crab hole in the walls all over the place. You won't find that in OKC, Austin, Detroit or Boston. That's a Jax thing that is a direct link. Another traditional thing you'll find here is bridge fishing (Heckscher is a good place for this) and fishing in general. You want to fill up the riverfront downtown? Allow fishing in certain spots and watch that Gullah culture really show up consistently since most don't have access to boats. You also see it in the dominant one pot seafood dishes here like low country boils, shrimp & grits, etc. The average person not knowing this in the 21st century is a fault of Jax not being inclusive and welcoming to promote what it is. I'll admit I didn't even know some of this stuff until hosting a family reunion and old timers showing up with a specific request for Jacksonville garlic crabs. Being of aware now, I see the little places are everywhere....well on the dominant black side of town....sort of like Dunkin Donuts in Center City Philly.

Yet, Jax's heritage and history is more than just black. We also boast the country's fifth-largest Syrian population, and the tenth largest overall Arab American community. Like those gralic crab houses all over the urban core, Middle Eastern restaurants, delis, sandwich shops, etc. can be found all over the city. Riders served with a side of tabbouleh and cherry limeade are actually a local thing that predates the invention of Chicago-style deep dish pizza. The delis tend to be heavily supported by the working class and longtime Jaxsons, so they get the short end of the promotional stick as well.

Don't even let me get started with the local music stuff. You'd probably say the blues and Beale Street are synonymous with Memphis. However, in the late-1970s, Beale was what Broad and Ashley look like in LaVilla today. A place torn apart by urban renewal with a small collection of boarded up old buildings (that Jax still does not value) where significant historical greats really lived, worked, played and partied. All Memphis really did was focus their story and revitalization around their musical heritage. What you see and think today is a direct result of going down that "this is me" path 30 to 40 years ago. So again, we could make a killing simply highlighting and rebuilding our story of our contributions to the jazz, blues, ragtime, southern rock, miami bass, etc. music genres.

QuoteAs for when visitors come from out of town, I do what 95% of the Jax people do - send them to St Augustine.

I doubt this is true considering roughly 50% of Jax is minority now. A good chunk of people in this city don't even make it to the beach, much less St. Augustine. As a kid, my family would visit Jax one or twice a year. 90% of that time was spent in the urban core, Northside and Westsides of town. I didn't see Riverside until spending a college weekend here and didn't see the beach until interviewing for the job that got me here in 2003. Knowing that there are different Jacksonville's, one of the first things I did when I moved here was to spend each weekend visiting a neighborhood I'd never been to before, via riding a bike or walking it and stopping in local businesses along the way. You'll really learn your community that way. At that point, advising people to go to St. Augustine only happens after they've exhausted all the other things that Jax has to offer.

Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2019, 12:24:09 PM
I'll agree that Jax is a blank slate when it comes to that subject, but the future of Jax is not going to be built on Black Culturalism - it just isn't.  Every Indian tribe has a cultural center but the vast majority of their tourism and income is derived from casinos.  Just look at Gatlinburg, TN and Cherokee, NC.  Both are at the gateways to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  One is a major tourist destination with millions of visitors and the other is sad and depressing.  Who knows though, maybe Cherokee was aiming for sad and depressing.  For everyone on the East Coast Cherokee is just a place you go through on the way to Gatlinburg.

On a related note - I just finished The Next American City and there was a section that talked about City Branding.  Of course I instantly tried to figure what image Jax conjured up in peoples minds and I just drew a blank.

I MUCH prefer visiting Cherokee over Gatlinburg. To each their own.

From reading these posts it's apparent that both Kerry and thelakelander are proving the same point.  We see the problems, but have differing ideas as to their solution.  You are both correct.  Kerry, OKC is a mere pimple on Jacksonville's ass. Who in their right mind wants to be like OKC?  lakelander, everyone who has an idea that you don't agree with, you pull the race card out.  Some times it warranted, mostly it isn't.  You are both correct, yet you are both wrong.

Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2019, 12:24:09 PM
I'll agree that Jax is a blank slate when it comes to that subject, but the future of Jax is not going to be built on Black Culturalism - it just isn't.  Every Indian tribe has a cultural center but the vast majority of their tourism and income is derived from casinos.  Just look at Gatlinburg, TN and Cherokee, NC.  Both are at the gateways to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  One is a major tourist destination with millions of visitors and the other is sad and depressing.  Who knows though, maybe Cherokee was aiming for sad and depressing.  For everyone on the East Coast Cherokee is just a place you go through on the way to Gatlinburg.

Lol where did the cultural center thing come into play? I never said build a cultural center. I said own up to who you (Jax) are and promote the things that make you (Jax) special. Our black history and contributions are a part of that but they aren't the only thing. I feel like everything I'm saying, no matter how I present and showcase it to you is flying right out the window.

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 05, 2019, 12:44:18 PM
From reading these posts it's apparent that both Kerry and thelakelander are proving the same point.  We see the problems, but have differing ideas as to their solution.  You are both correct.  Kerry, OKC is a mere pimple on Jacksonville's ass. Who in their right mind wants to be like OKC?  lakelander, everyone who has an idea that you don't agree with, you pull the race card out.  Some times it warranted, mostly it isn't.  You are both correct, yet you are both wrong.

No we aren't. You might not like it, but I'm coming from a factual and documented perspective of the region's cultural development and growth. I have all the data and documentation to back my points up. Feel free to prove me wrong instead of inaccurately claiming the pull the race card thing out. We can do better than that. Own up to your local history.

QuoteOf course I instantly tried to figure what image Jax conjured up in peoples minds and I just drew a blank.

You mean 'It's easier here' didn't come to mind?

I am a big believer in a city cultivating a brand. If done right it can work wonders. Unfortunately no one in JAX even seems to understand the concept, much less how to do it. That is too bad, because they is a gracious plenty to work with.   

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2019, 12:55:47 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 05, 2019, 12:44:18 PM
From reading these posts it's apparent that both Kerry and thelakelander are proving the same point.  We see the problems, but have differing ideas as to their solution.  You are both correct.  Kerry, OKC is a mere pimple on Jacksonville's ass. Who in their right mind wants to be like OKC?  lakelander, everyone who has an idea that you don't agree with, you pull the race card out.  Some times it warranted, mostly it isn't.  You are both correct, yet you are both wrong.

No we aren't. You might not like it, but I'm coming from a factual and documented perspective of the region's cultural development and growth. I have all the data and documentation to back my points up. Feel free to prove me wrong instead of inaccurately claiming the pull the race card thing out. We can do better than that. Own up to your local history.

I'm owning up to our local history.  I'm a sixth generation No. Floridian.  I'm not proud of everything that has happened here, but I'm not blaming any particular race.  I'm proud that we've elected a black sheriff and a black mayor.  Everyone who doesn't feel safe on Dunn Ave. or the Landing isn't a racist.  You are absolutely wrong to try to classify or critique a person's perceptions.  Perceptions are created from experience and logic.  Am I a racist because I don't want to visit Yemen?  Is it wrong to perceive zip code 32209 as dangerous?  I know people from all races that feel unsafe going to the Landing.  It's not my job to second guess them.  Usually a perception is based on history, local knowledge, and being informed.  When you are walking from the Landing late at night to your car, I could care less about the race of a robber, aggressive panhandler, or sucker puncher.  I want to avoid that situation if possible.  If I (or you) were to go to certain areas and get accosted, the first thing both your and my friends and family would say is, "what the hell was he doing there?"  That's not racist, that is called street smarts.

Well, as a black man with Geechee, Creek, and god knows whatever else ancestry. I see myself as too much of person to care about the different parts that me up as a whole. If I'm supposed to care, I need to be persuaded via scholarly paper. And those are few and far between.

People are so wound up in racial and social differences, that they fly right over the things we should be more concerned with as a community. We build all these fancy utopian haciendas right in the middle of flood zones. Yet, people only take notice of this when disaster strikes. Let's turn these grassy fields and derelict buildings into something that can be of use in event of a major hurricane. We want to grow the community and all that. But, where are all these people supposed to go if they can't get out? There's always congestion when people wait to hit the road at the last minute. So where can all of the hundreds of thousands of evacuees stuck in here town go if not back to their homes in flood zones? No, we don't care about that. We're only supposed to worry about racial problems, petty criminals, and crazy people in office.

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 05, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
I'm owning up to our local history.  I'm a sixth generation No. Floridian.  I'm not proud of everything that has happened here, but I'm not blaming any particular race.  I'm proud that we've elected a black sheriff and a black mayor.  Everyone who doesn't feel safe on Dunn Ave. or the Landing isn't a racist.

Stop, you're not going to paint me into a picture of specifically calling any individual racist. I'm talking about embracing local culture and not giving in to ignorant perceptions and biases of a minority percentage of the population and using them as valid reasons to push certain types of public policies and revitalization strategies. You don't need to blow up or change Dunn Avenue because some random individual is uncomfortable of being on a side of town where the demographic makeup isn't to their liking. This has nothing to do about electing a black sheriff, mayor or whatever. I'm flat out saying that was an ignorant observation made by the bus driver and that it does not equate Dunn Avenue to being an unsafe place.

QuoteYou are absolutely wrong to try to classify or critique a person's perceptions.  Perceptions are created from experience and logic.  Am I a racist because I don't want to visit Yemen?  Is it wrong to perceive zip code 32209 as dangerous?

Again, you can stop with the racist stuff, because you're pretty far off base. Yes, I am flat out saying there is a difference between reality and perception when it comes to planning, development, etc. You don't change Dunn because someone not used to that area has a certain perception based on fear and ignorance of that environment. So if applied to you....you don't like Yemen...well don't go. Yemen should not have to reinvent itself because Snaketoz doesn't want to go there. Also, perception isn't always created from experience and logic.  For 39 years, I hated oysters. I had never tried one but I didn't like the way they looked, so I didn't like them. Then I finally tried one and found out they were pretty good. I had a perception. It wasn't based on experience or logic. It was based on ignorance.

QuoteI know people from all races that feel unsafe going to the Landing.  It's not my job to second guess them.  Usually a perception is based on history, local knowledge, and being informed.

See response above. Ignorance can also a big factor in perception. Don't discount it. The personal example I gave above was a real one.

QuoteWhen you are walking from the Landing late at night to your car, I could care less about the race of a robber, aggressive panhandler, or sucker puncher.  I want to avoid that situation if possible.  If I (or you) were to go to certain areas and get accosted, the first thing both your and my friends and family would say is, "what the hell was he doing there?"  That's not racist, that is called street smarts.

Lol street smarts? Good lord. I have an office across the street from the Landing. I've had an office within two blocks of the Landing since 2014. I've had an office in downtown continuously since 2009. At no point have I ever felt fearful of walking in downtown late at night to my truck.....which I usually park on Laura north of State (I get it, some would we their pants) because I don't like paying for parking. If you pull the crime rates, you see downtown's are actually pretty low. If you're there on a consistent basis, you'd personally know this from experience as well. To claim that it is a high crime area when the factual statistics don't support that would be considered a perception based on ignorance.  Is it empty? Yes. Could it be better lit at night? Yes. Should it be better lit at night and filled with more businesses open at night? Of course. That's an entirely different story from perceptions largely based on racial demographics.

Quote from: OldOrangeHause on June 05, 2019, 01:49:00 PM
Well, as a black man with Geechee, Creek, and god knows whatever else ancestry. I see myself as too much of person to care about the different parts that me up as a whole. If I'm supposed to care, I need to be persuaded via scholarly paper. And those are few and far between.

People are so wound up in racial and social differences, that they fly right over the things we should be more concerned with as a community. We build all these fancy utopian haciendas right in the middle of flood zones. Yet, people only take notice of this when disaster strikes. Let's turn these grassy fields and derelict buildings into something that can be of use in event of a major hurricane. We want to grow the community and all that. But, where are all these people supposed to go if they can't get out? There's always congestion when people wait to hit the road at the last minute. So where can all of the hundreds of thousands of evacuees stuck in here town go if not back to their homes in flood zones? No, we don't care about that. We're only supposed to worry about racial problems, petty criminals, and crazy people in office.

Resiliency is a huge issue and it normally negatively impacts the underrepresented portions of our communities moreso than anything else. I'm involved with a project in a rural Texas community where this is a major issue with the Colorado River (what we've witnessed is child's play to what they've been put through). It should certainly be a bigger part of the planning, cultural, social and economic future of our city. Locally, public facilities like schools are what would be utilized in the case of a major disaster. IMO, a major challenge/obstacle we face is getting those homes out of flood zones or limiting the damage potential.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2019, 02:08:13 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 05, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
I'm owning up to our local history.  I'm a sixth generation No. Floridian.  I'm not proud of everything that has happened here, but I'm not blaming any particular race.  I'm proud that we've elected a black sheriff and a black mayor.  Everyone who doesn't feel safe on Dunn Ave. or the Landing isn't a racist.

Stop, you're not going to paint me into a picture of specifically calling any individual racist. I'm talking about embracing local culture and not giving in to ignorant perceptions and biases of a minority percentage of the population and using them as valid reasons to push certain types of public policies and revitalization strategies. You don't need to blow up or change Dunn Avenue because some random individual is uncomfortable of being on a side of town where the demographic makeup isn't to their liking. This has nothing to do about electing a black sheriff, mayor or whatever. I'm flat out saying that was an ignorant observation made by the bus driver and that it does not equate Dunn Avenue to being an unsafe place.

QuoteYou are absolutely wrong to try to classify or critique a person's perceptions.  Perceptions are created from experience and logic.  Am I a racist because I don't want to visit Yemen?  Is it wrong to perceive zip code 32209 as dangerous?

Again, you can stop with the racist stuff, because you're pretty far off base. Yes, I am flat out saying there is a difference between reality and perception when it comes to planning, development, etc. You don't change Dunn because someone not used to that area has a certain perception based on fear and ignorance of that environment. So if applied to you....you don't like Yemen...well don't go. Yemen should not have to reinvent itself because Snaketoz doesn't want to go there. Also, perception isn't always created from experience and logic.  For 39 years, I hated oysters. I had never tried one but I didn't like the way they looked, so I didn't like them. Then I finally tried one and found out they were pretty good. I had a perception. It wasn't based on experience or logic. It was based on ignorance.

QuoteI know people from all races that feel unsafe going to the Landing.  It's not my job to second guess them.  Usually a perception is based on history, local knowledge, and being informed.

See response above. Ignorance can also a big factor in perception. Don't discount it. The personal example I gave above was a real one.

QuoteWhen you are walking from the Landing late at night to your car, I could care less about the race of a robber, aggressive panhandler, or sucker puncher.  I want to avoid that situation if possible.  If I (or you) were to go to certain areas and get accosted, the first thing both your and my friends and family would say is, "what the hell was he doing there?"  That's not racist, that is called street smarts.

Lol street smarts? Good lord. I have an office across the street from the Landing. I've had an office within two blocks of the Landing since 2014. I've had an office in downtown continuously since 2009. At no point have I ever felt fearful of walking in downtown late at night to my truck.....which I usually park on Laura north of State (I get it, some would we their pants) because I don't like paying for parking. If you pull the crime rates, you see downtown's are actually pretty low. If you're there on a consistent basis, you'd personally know this from experience as well. To claim that it is a high crime area when the factual statistics don't support that would be considered a perception based on ignorance.  Is it empty? Yes. Could it be better lit at night? Yes. Should it be better lit at night and filled with more businesses open at night? Of course. That's an entirely different story from perceptions largely based on racial demographics.

One big mistake we keep making in the urban core is assuming that pretty much everyone needs to feel safe and happy for it to be a success. The reality is there are a lot of folks who will basically never feel safe in an urban environment regardless of what's done (or what's possible to be done). And there are others who like the current environment just fine and want the improvements on the sames rather than "cleaning it up" with demolitions and big money one-trick ponies. Trying to please everyone really does mean pleasing no one.

In reality, we don't need to attract every suburbanite and Dunn Avenue-fearing public employees for the urban core to take off. we need to attract the people who actually want to be in an urban core. And the funny thing is, usually the more popular places get, the more they're seen as "safe".

Well I guess if someone wants to open a Gullah Geechee heritage center and garlic crab bar then more power to them.  At least there would be some kind of cultural attraction besides Cummer and MOCA.

Quote from: Tacachale on June 05, 2019, 12:43:28 PM

Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2019, 12:24:09 PM
I'll agree that Jax is a blank slate when it comes to that subject, but the future of Jax is not going to be built on Black Culturalism - it just isn't.  Every Indian tribe has a cultural center but the vast majority of their tourism and income is derived from casinos.  Just look at Gatlinburg, TN and Cherokee, NC.  Both are at the gateways to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  One is a major tourist destination with millions of visitors and the other is sad and depressing.  Who knows though, maybe Cherokee was aiming for sad and depressing.  For everyone on the East Coast Cherokee is just a place you go through on the way to Gatlinburg.

On a related note - I just finished The Next American City and there was a section that talked about City Branding.  Of course I instantly tried to figure what image Jax conjured up in peoples minds and I just drew a blank.

I MUCH prefer visiting Cherokee over Gatlinburg. To each their own.

I think my original response was a bit harsh so deleted it.  Let me just say no one would rather go to Cherokee over Gatlinburg - no one.  I've been to Cherokee 4 times.  It makes me more sad everytime.

Quote from: Tacachale on June 05, 2019, 02:27:21 PM
In reality, we don't need to attract every suburbanite and Dunn Avenue-fearing public employees for the urban core to take off. we need to attract the people who actually want to be in an urban core. And the funny thing is, usually the more popular places get, the more they're seen as "safe".

Other than owning your local heritage and identity, that's my basic point with the perception vs reality stuff. Especially in regards to the urban core. Worry about resolving the real issues and building a quality place for the people who want to be there.

Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2019, 02:30:08 PM
Well I guess if someone wants to open a Gullah Geechee heritage center and garlic crab bar then more power to them.  At least there would be some kind of cultural attraction besides Cummer and MOCA.

I kind of look at things this way. I believe, based off professional experience in this industry, that we'd be better off focusing on local place and culture based experiences where local businesses and residents can economically benefit in a way that strengthens Jax's unique sense of place, then continuously destroying what's unique in hopes of landing the next Cheesecake Factory. Garlic crabs, seafood, bbq, soul food, southern food, riders, more maritime related activity....bring them all on and share the historic story of why and how we got to where we're at today. For those who are comfortable with Chipotle and Starbucks, no worries, as long as there is a market, they'll still come.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2019, 02:08:13 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 05, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
I'm owning up to our local history.  I'm a sixth generation No. Floridian.  I'm not proud of everything that has happened here, but I'm not blaming any particular race.  I'm proud that we've elected a black sheriff and a black mayor.  Everyone who doesn't feel safe on Dunn Ave. or the Landing isn't a racist.

Stop, you're not going to paint me into a picture of specifically calling any individual racist. I'm talking about embracing local culture and not giving in to ignorant perceptions and biases of a minority percentage of the population and using them as valid reasons to push certain types of public policies and revitalization strategies. You don't need to blow up or change Dunn Avenue because some random individual is uncomfortable of being on a side of town where the demographic makeup isn't to their liking. This has nothing to do about electing a black sheriff, mayor or whatever. I'm flat out saying that was an ignorant observation made by the bus driver and that it does not equate Dunn Avenue to being an unsafe place.

QuoteYou are absolutely wrong to try to classify or critique a person's perceptions.  Perceptions are created from experience and logic.  Am I a racist because I don't want to visit Yemen?  Is it wrong to perceive zip code 32209 as dangerous?

Again, you can stop with the racist stuff, because you're pretty far off base. Yes, I am flat out saying there is a difference between reality and perception when it comes to planning, development, etc. You don't change Dunn because someone not used to that area has a certain perception based on fear and ignorance of that environment. So if applied to you....you don't like Yemen...well don't go. Yemen should not have to reinvent itself because Snaketoz doesn't want to go there. Also, perception isn't always created from experience and logic.  For 39 years, I hated oysters. I had never tried one but I didn't like the way they looked, so I didn't like them. Then I finally tried one and found out they were pretty good. I had a perception. It wasn't based on experience or logic. It was based on ignorance.

QuoteI know people from all races that feel unsafe going to the Landing.  It's not my job to second guess them.  Usually a perception is based on history, local knowledge, and being informed.

See response above. Ignorance can also a big factor in perception. Don't discount it. The personal example I gave above was a real one.

QuoteWhen you are walking from the Landing late at night to your car, I could care less about the race of a robber, aggressive panhandler, or sucker puncher.  I want to avoid that situation if possible.  If I (or you) were to go to certain areas and get accosted, the first thing both your and my friends and family would say is, "what the hell was he doing there?"  That's not racist, that is called street smarts.

Lol street smarts? Good lord. I have an office across the street from the Landing. I've had an office within two blocks of the Landing since 2014. I've had an office in downtown continuously since 2009. At no point have I ever felt fearful of walking in downtown late at night to my truck.....which I usually park on Laura north of State (I get it, some would we their pants) because I don't like paying for parking. If you pull the crime rates, you see downtown's are actually pretty low. If you're there on a consistent basis, you'd personally know this from experience as well. To claim that it is a high crime area when the factual statistics don't support that would be considered a perception based on ignorance.  Is it empty? Yes. Could it be better lit at night? Yes. Should it be better lit at night and filled with more businesses open at night? Of course. That's an entirely different story from perceptions largely based on racial demographics.

It seems you THINK everyone else's perceptions are based on racial demographics.  What I'm questioning is why you think that.  I feel safe going most everywhere.  I just don't question why others don't.  I'm not painting you into a picture of anything.  You are doing a good job of that yourself.  There are over 1 million people in the Jax metro.  Nothing you can type here is going to change people's perceptions.  You are offending many by inferring that Jacksonville's local culture is giving into ignorant perceptions and biases of minorities to do anything.  You continue to use a broad brush to paint a very narrow portion of our city.  I agree with much you say.  What I disagree with you is, it SEEMS you blame the majority for the sins of the minority.  Isn't that what racists do? 

Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2019, 02:33:48 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on June 05, 2019, 12:43:28 PM

Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2019, 12:24:09 PM
I'll agree that Jax is a blank slate when it comes to that subject, but the future of Jax is not going to be built on Black Culturalism - it just isn't.  Every Indian tribe has a cultural center but the vast majority of their tourism and income is derived from casinos.  Just look at Gatlinburg, TN and Cherokee, NC.  Both are at the gateways to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  One is a major tourist destination with millions of visitors and the other is sad and depressing.  Who knows though, maybe Cherokee was aiming for sad and depressing.  For everyone on the East Coast Cherokee is just a place you go through on the way to Gatlinburg.

On a related note - I just finished The Next American City and there was a section that talked about City Branding.  Of course I instantly tried to figure what image Jax conjured up in peoples minds and I just drew a blank.

I MUCH prefer visiting Cherokee over Gatlinburg. To each their own.

I think my original response was a bit harsh so deleted it.  Let me just say no one would rather go to Cherokee over Gatlinburg - no one.  I've been to Cherokee 4 times.  It makes me more sad everytime.

Lol, I just told you that I'd rather go to Cherokee, and I'm in WNC at least once every year. Cherokee has two excellent museums, a gallery for local artists, and just as good an access to the Great Smoky Mountains as Gatlinburg has. Those are things that appeal to me. Gatlinburg is a tourist trap of the type I've seen a million times in Florida. Like I said, to each their own; this is another case that proves that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 05, 2019, 02:52:17 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2019, 02:08:13 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 05, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
I'm owning up to our local history.  I'm a sixth generation No. Floridian.  I'm not proud of everything that has happened here, but I'm not blaming any particular race.  I'm proud that we've elected a black sheriff and a black mayor.  Everyone who doesn't feel safe on Dunn Ave. or the Landing isn't a racist.

Stop, you're not going to paint me into a picture of specifically calling any individual racist. I'm talking about embracing local culture and not giving in to ignorant perceptions and biases of a minority percentage of the population and using them as valid reasons to push certain types of public policies and revitalization strategies. You don't need to blow up or change Dunn Avenue because some random individual is uncomfortable of being on a side of town where the demographic makeup isn't to their liking. This has nothing to do about electing a black sheriff, mayor or whatever. I'm flat out saying that was an ignorant observation made by the bus driver and that it does not equate Dunn Avenue to being an unsafe place.

QuoteYou are absolutely wrong to try to classify or critique a person's perceptions.  Perceptions are created from experience and logic.  Am I a racist because I don't want to visit Yemen?  Is it wrong to perceive zip code 32209 as dangerous?

Again, you can stop with the racist stuff, because you're pretty far off base. Yes, I am flat out saying there is a difference between reality and perception when it comes to planning, development, etc. You don't change Dunn because someone not used to that area has a certain perception based on fear and ignorance of that environment. So if applied to you....you don't like Yemen...well don't go. Yemen should not have to reinvent itself because Snaketoz doesn't want to go there. Also, perception isn't always created from experience and logic.  For 39 years, I hated oysters. I had never tried one but I didn't like the way they looked, so I didn't like them. Then I finally tried one and found out they were pretty good. I had a perception. It wasn't based on experience or logic. It was based on ignorance.

QuoteI know people from all races that feel unsafe going to the Landing.  It's not my job to second guess them.  Usually a perception is based on history, local knowledge, and being informed.

See response above. Ignorance can also a big factor in perception. Don't discount it. The personal example I gave above was a real one.

QuoteWhen you are walking from the Landing late at night to your car, I could care less about the race of a robber, aggressive panhandler, or sucker puncher.  I want to avoid that situation if possible.  If I (or you) were to go to certain areas and get accosted, the first thing both your and my friends and family would say is, "what the hell was he doing there?"  That's not racist, that is called street smarts.

Lol street smarts? Good lord. I have an office across the street from the Landing. I've had an office within two blocks of the Landing since 2014. I've had an office in downtown continuously since 2009. At no point have I ever felt fearful of walking in downtown late at night to my truck.....which I usually park on Laura north of State (I get it, some would we their pants) because I don't like paying for parking. If you pull the crime rates, you see downtown's are actually pretty low. If you're there on a consistent basis, you'd personally know this from experience as well. To claim that it is a high crime area when the factual statistics don't support that would be considered a perception based on ignorance.  Is it empty? Yes. Could it be better lit at night? Yes. Should it be better lit at night and filled with more businesses open at night? Of course. That's an entirely different story from perceptions largely based on racial demographics.

It seems you THINK everyone else's perceptions are based on racial demographics.  What I'm questioning is why you think that.  I feel safe going most everywhere.  I just don't question why others don't.  I'm not painting you into a picture of anything.  You are doing a good job of that yourself.  There are over 1 million people in the Jax metro.  Nothing you can type here is going to change people's perceptions.  You are offending many by inferring that Jacksonville's local culture is giving into ignorant perceptions and biases of minorities to do anything.  You continue to use a broad brush to paint a very narrow portion of our city.  I agree with much you say.  What I disagree with you is, it SEEMS you blame the majority for the sins of the minority.  Isn't that what racists do?

Another case showing that people perceive things differently. Many people consider race and equity issues among the most important issues facing us, and believe we need to confront them. Many other people aren't comfortable talking about race at all. Folks on either side don't see eye to eye.

QuoteLol, I just told you that I'd rather go to Cherokee, and I'm in WNC at least once every year. Cherokee has two excellent museums, a gallery for local artists, and just as good an access to the Great Smoky Mountains as Gatlinburg has. Those are things that appeal to me. Gatlinburg is a tourist trap of the type I've seen a million times in Florida. Like I said, to each their own; this is another case that proves that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

If you like it better so be it.  I think I like the idea of Cherokee better than the execution.

QuoteAnother case showing that people perceive things differently. Many people consider race and equity issues among the most important issues facing us, and believe we need to confront them. Many other people aren't comfortable talking about race at all. Folks on either side don't see eye to eye.

Those are the only two points of view available, those who think it is important and those afriad to talk about it?  I think most people don't understand why a significant portion of the population just can't straighten up and fly right.

Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2019, 03:56:12 PM

QuoteAnother case showing that people perceive things differently. Many people consider race and equity issues among the most important issues facing us, and believe we need to confront them. Many other people aren't comfortable talking about race at all. Folks on either side don't see eye to eye.

Those are the only two points of view available, those who think it is important and those afriad to talk about it?  I think most people don't understand why a significant portion of the population just can't straighten up and fly right.

There are infinitely more viewpoints than that, which further serves the point. You won't get everyone to agree on any one thing.

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 05, 2019, 02:52:17 PM
It seems you THINK everyone else's perceptions are based on racial demographics.  What I'm questioning is why you think that.

I never said everyone else's perceptions are based on racial demographics. However, the bus driver saying a middle class black area is a dangerous place that people should stay away from is certainly laced in racial undertones. If you have some crime statistical data to suggest otherwise, please share. So I'm questioning how did you translate this to mean "everyone else's perceptions"? Take it easy, you're going to stress yourself out if this is how you interpret things.

QuoteI feel safe going most everywhere.  I just don't question why others don't.  I'm not painting you into a picture of anything.  You are doing a good job of that yourself.  There are over 1 million people in the Jax metro.  Nothing you can type here is going to change people's perceptions.

I'm not out to change people's perceptions. That's a waste of time and energy, IMO. I've said this quiet a few times as well. Here is one example of what I said about the perceptions that aren't founded in reality:

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2019, 02:08:13 PM
Again, you can stop with the racist stuff, because you're pretty far off base. Yes, I am flat out saying there is a difference between reality and perception when it comes to planning, development, etc. You don't change Dunn because someone not used to that area has a certain perception based on fear and ignorance of that environment. So if applied to you....you don't like Yemen...well don't go. Yemen should not have to reinvent itself because Snaketoz doesn't want to go there. Also, perception isn't always created from experience and logic.  For 39 years, I hated oysters. I had never tried one but I didn't like the way they looked, so I didn't like them. Then I finally tried one and found out they were pretty good. I had a perception. It wasn't based on experience or logic. It was based on ignorance.

QuoteYou are offending many by inferring that Jacksonville's local culture is giving into ignorant perceptions and biases of minorities to do anything.

I don't apologize for what I've said. I've repeatedly stated that we don't own and promote our local culture like we should. I've also pointed out several examples of this that indicate that local culture is multicultural. Our blues history is one of the examples previously stated. Did you know that one of the best blues singers ever associated with Jax's history was Gregg Allman? Your overt focus on the black side of this conversation appears to be your challenge to address with a more culturally inclusive open mind.

QuoteYou continue to use a broad brush to paint a very narrow portion of our city.

You got all of this from pointing out we have some perceptions and biases we need to overcome and that we're better off ignoring perceptions that are based off ignorance instead of modifying public policy to pacify a few?

QuoteI agree with much you say.  What I disagree with you is, it SEEMS you blame the majority for the sins of the minority.  Isn't that what racists do?

As a 7th generation black Floridian, I've always understood racism to be defined as the belief in the superiority of one race over another. I wasn't aware that racists advocate for equity and inclusion. Btw, I mentioned a while back that I'm a technical and rational nexus type of guy. What majority is being blamed for the sins of the minority? And what exactly are the sins and who is the majority and the minority that you speak of?

lakelander, I'll end this futile back and forth conversation to the delight of others here by saying that with each post you are justifying what I've said.  As far as Dunn Av is concerned, you didn't mention the race of the bus driver, or if he mentioned any race when commenting about the safety of the area.  You PERCEIVED it to be racist.  Maybe he knows the area better than you or I.
I stand up for my community when it is slandered by others.  Jacksonville isn't the only place in America that isn't perfect.  Many think we are backward, cousin marrying cretins.  Many South Floridians roll their eyes when I tell them where I'm from.  Many are from gated communities that lock everyone out of their compounds, but come out and preach about how bad we are.
Time after time you mention your race.  Never have I mentioned mine.  You say, "As a 7th generation black Floridian", I said I'm a 6th generation Floridian.  My overt focus on the black side??
Most everything you write has a racial slant.  If it isn't overt, it's inferred.  You know it too.  I'm just old and cranky enough to call you out on it.  BTW, I have a great granddaughter who is an 8th generation Floridian.  Notice, I don't mention her race.

Quote from: Snaketoz on June 06, 2019, 07:44:33 AM
lakelander, I'll end this futile back and forth conversation to the delight of others here by saying that with each post you are justifying what I've said.  As far as Dunn Av is concerned, you didn't mention the race of the bus driver, or if he mentioned any race when commenting about the safety of the area.  You PERCEIVED it to be racist.

I've clearly stated over and over again, I took the perception to be one of ignorance. Ignorance and racism aren't the same. Ignorance simply means lack of knowledge or information. Yet you're seriously telling me what I perceived. So at the end of the day, our back and forth literally comes down to a perception problem. Go figure!

QuoteMost everything you write has a racial slant.  If it isn't overt, it's inferred.  You know it too.  I'm just old and cranky enough to call you out on it.

I don't mind being called out for sticking up, exposing underrepresented history, acknowledging social, preservation and economic issues that need awareness and advocating for equity and multicultural inclusion. Thanks, that means I'm doing my job.

Well this thread went off the rails.

Can we go back to talking about fields now?

Lol back to fields. Came across this public park in Pearl Court this past weekend.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Pearl-Court-June-2019/i-WXjZGsn/0/22fe6e00/L/20190601_164431-L.jpg)

I can't wait to see what Lenny has in store for the Landing site. Maybe we can throw up a fence and add some livestock. That will at least provide a touch of the past to the demolition story.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2019, 09:21:02 AM
Lol back to fields. Came across this public park in Pearl Court this past weekend.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Pearl-Court-June-2019/i-WXjZGsn/0/22fe6e00/L/20190601_164431-L.jpg)

I can't wait to see what Lenny has in store for the Landing site. Maybe we can throw up a fence and add some livestock. That will at least provide a touch of the past to the demolition story.

Perhaps we can reclaim the name Cowford.

Lakelander, thank you for pointing out the most obvious things that our city seems to fail upon. It's not rocket science, but we seem to keep going backwards with each administration. Seriously, do our city leaders not look more than 2-4 hours up north and see the success that cities like Savannah and Charleston have by following a simple formula? Preserve and embrace your history.

We should be boasting and shouting through the rooftops of all of the things that make Jax unique (which Lake has stated numerous times in this thread). From camel riders, seafood boils to even the birth place of southern rock, we don't embrace ANY of that. (Besides some signs they put outside the homes of the Allman Brothers and lynyrd skynyrd.)

And now, when we have a clean slate to revamp a dead Landing with many of the things stated above, we are turning it into a empty plot of land that will have weeds growing out of it in no time. It's so damn depressing.

QuoteSeriously, do our city leaders not look more than 2-4 hours up north and see the success that cities like Savannah and Charleston have by following a simple formula? Preserve and embrace your history.

I feel your pain. One thing that a lot of cities suffer from is the perception that if they don't have a significant cluster or 'district' of historic architecture, then what historic buildings they do have are not significant or worth saving.

If there isn't a least a neighborhood or an entire street of 'history' then it doesn't seem to register as sufficient and/or worthy.  That is a shame, but I find that attitude not only in JAX but elsewhere. Fortunately that attitude has seemed to disipate as time has marched on.       

Jax has/had two commemorative markers for the Great Fire.  Neither are at the spot where the fire started.  The single most defining event of Jacksonville and we can't even get that right.

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
Jax has/had two commemorative markers for the Great Fire.  Neither are at the spot where the fire started.  The single most defining event of Jacksonville and we can't even get that right.

The big monolith is the spot where the most people died. There ought to be a sign there pointing that out.

The fire started in LaVilla......right in the area that was settled by migrating freedmen largely from SC and GA, that emerged as an early ragtime, blues and jazz district.....An inclusive storytelling opportunity.....Hmm......

Quote from: Tacachale on June 06, 2019, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
Jax has/had two commemorative markers for the Great Fire.  Neither are at the spot where the fire started.  The single most defining event of Jacksonville and we can't even get that right.

The big monolith is the spot where the most people died. There ought to be a sign there pointing that out.

Is it even coming back?

Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2019, 11:29:09 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on June 06, 2019, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
Jax has/had two commemorative markers for the Great Fire.  Neither are at the spot where the fire started.  The single most defining event of Jacksonville and we can't even get that right.

The big monolith is the spot where the most people died. There ought to be a sign there pointing that out.

Is it even coming back?

Good question. It also wouldn't have been the actual spot, as the river used to be farther in.

If you don't believe in the flying spahgetti monster it only proves that you're too ignorant to be able to flying spahgetti monster.  Wonderful logic folks, keep it up.

If someone was actually afraid of people of color, there isn't a damn place in this town one could go - downtown, Riverside, Durbin Park, Wildlight, Orange Park, Ortega, Mandarin, Ft. Caroline, et al.  EVERYWHERE.   You just can't live in this city if that's your hangup.

It's not an issue of perception of fear, it's an issue of why risk it.  Like statistically you don't have to wear your seat belt but why risk it.   Dunn Avenue may not be Moncrief but it's a far cry from Argyle Forest Blvd, too. 

It ain't about color, it's about socio-economic class.  We have deep evolutionary things going on here about not feeling comfortable around things that are outside of the norm.   


A lot of coworkers have been talking about The Landing since it popped up in the news last year.  Not one has any of them mentioned they didn't feel safe there.  They all have said various combinations of:

a) I didn't know there were any stores left there
b) The restaurants left served crap food
c) I didn't know there were any stores left there
d) I never shopped there

Quote from: Tacachale on June 06, 2019, 11:32:05 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2019, 11:29:09 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on June 06, 2019, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
Jax has/had two commemorative markers for the Great Fire.  Neither are at the spot where the fire started.  The single most defining event of Jacksonville and we can't even get that right.

The big monolith is the spot where the most people died. There ought to be a sign there pointing that out.

Is it even coming back?

Good question. It also wouldn't have been the actual spot, as the river used to be farther in.

What would be cool is a series of markers (maybe at every block) which detailed the spread of the fire.  Things like time from start, what structures on that block were burned, any heroic tales, and of course any loss of life.

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 01:03:40 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on June 06, 2019, 11:32:05 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2019, 11:29:09 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on June 06, 2019, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
Jax has/had two commemorative markers for the Great Fire.  Neither are at the spot where the fire started.  The single most defining event of Jacksonville and we can't even get that right.

The big monolith is the spot where the most people died. There ought to be a sign there pointing that out.

Is it even coming back?

Good question. It also wouldn't have been the actual spot, as the river used to be farther in.

What would be cool is a series of markers (maybe at every block) which detailed the spread of the fire.  Things like time from start, what structures on that block were burned, any heroic tales, and of course any loss of life.

That would be really cool.

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 01:03:40 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on June 06, 2019, 11:32:05 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2019, 11:29:09 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on June 06, 2019, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
Jax has/had two commemorative markers for the Great Fire.  Neither are at the spot where the fire started.  The single most defining event of Jacksonville and we can't even get that right.

The big monolith is the spot where the most people died. There ought to be a sign there pointing that out.

Is it even coming back?

Good question. It also wouldn't have been the actual spot, as the river used to be farther in.

What would be cool is a series of markers (maybe at every block) which detailed the spread of the fire.  Things like time from start, what structures on that block were burned, any heroic tales, and of course any loss of life.

I spend a lot of time on this site disagreeing with you.

However, this is actually a GREAT idea.

Quote from: bl8jaxnative on June 06, 2019, 12:40:10 PM
If you don't believe in the flying spahgetti monster it only proves that you're too ignorant to be able to flying spahgetti monster.  Wonderful logic folks, keep it up.

If someone was actually afraid of people of color, there isn't a damn place in this town one could go - downtown, Riverside, Durbin Park, Wildlight, Orange Park, Ortega, Mandarin, Ft. Caroline, et al.  EVERYWHERE.   You just can't live in this city if that's your hangup.

It's not an issue of perception of fear, it's an issue of why risk it.  Like statistically you don't have to wear your seat belt but why risk it.   Dunn Avenue may not be Moncrief but it's a far cry from Argyle Forest Blvd, too. 

It ain't about color, it's about socio-economic class.  We have deep evolutionary things going on here about not feeling comfortable around things that are outside of the norm.   


A lot of coworkers have been talking about The Landing since it popped up in the news last year.  Not one has any of them mentioned they didn't feel safe there.  They all have said various combinations of:

a) I didn't know there were any stores left there
b) The restaurants left served crap food
c) I didn't know there were any stores left there
d) I never shopped there

I tend to agree that socio-economic class drives perception more than race (though it is foolish to argue that there are no racial prejudices). A good example would be to watch the first 10 minutes of Katt Williams Netflix special (filmed in Jax) where he goes off on how many sketchy places and unsafe places there are in Jax.

What makes Dunn Ave unappealing is that....well...it's unappealing.  Lots of places in Jax could use some serious landscaping and beautification.  Alas, Jax has so many miles of poorly landscaped stroads where would you even start?  Name one attractive street in Jacksonville.

QuoteWhat makes Dunn Ave unappealing is that....well...it's unappealing.  Lots of places in Jax could use some serious landscaping and beautification.  Alas, Jax has so many miles of poorly landscaped stroads where would you even start?  Name one attractive street in Jacksonville

Main St. It just has that "Small Town U.S.A" feeling heading towards Dunns IMO.

Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
What makes Dunn Ave unappealing is that....well...it's unappealing.  Lots of places in Jax could use some serious landscaping and beautification.  Alas, Jax has so many miles of poorly landscaped stroads where would you even start?

It's literally identical to the majority of suburban arterial 4 to 6 lane roads in this city. The average person wouldn't be able to tell Dunn from Baymeadows, Atlantic, Beach or 103rd.

QuoteName one attractive street in Jacksonville.

Some I like in terms of landscape include St. Johns Avenue, Gate Parkway (between Southside and Town Center Parkway), Ortega Boulevard, Heckscher (east of Blount Island)...

Baltimore Mayor's been smoking the same stuff as Curry:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-mayor-young-harborplace-20190605-story.html

He sounds more logical:

QuoteThe city owns the land, but the judge's order paves the way for the two retail pavillions along Light and Pratt streets to be sold. Young acknowledged that the future of the site would lie with any new owner, but said he'd want to talk to them about a new concept involving shops, restaurants, a Ferris wheel and a merry-go-round.

Young said he'd be open to the city selling the land.

"I would like to see a mixture of everything there," Young said. "Whoever buys it, it's up to them but I would like to have those conversations."

A lot of this trouble could be avoided if these cities would just sell the land these developments sit on instead of leasing it.  Who the heck wants to build a supposed permanent structure on rented land other than someone who doesn't olan on being around long enough to care.