QuoteThe rapid transformation of Pensacola's Palafox Street serves as a revitalization example for Jacksonville's Northbank to follow.
November 2007
(https://photos.moderncities.com/History/Pensacola-Palafox-Before/i-V9gs59C/0/313f5e7c/L/Pcola-11-L.jpg)
May 2019
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Pensacola-May-2019/i-jR48CDB/0/eb907668/L/20190515_212729-L.jpg)
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-lesson-for-jacksonville-pensacolas-palafox-street/
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 21, 2019, 08:48:17 AM
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.
I would rather see Jax spend money on things like this instead of throwing money in the trash chasing corporations. Build a place people actually want to be in - and the jobs will show up all by themselves.
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2019, 11:10:24 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on May 21, 2019, 08:48:17 AM
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.
I would rather see Jax spend money on things like this instead of throwing money in the trash chasing corporations. Build a place people actually want to be in - and the jobs will show up all by themselves.
Because so much industry is located in Pensacola?
Pensacola is the Navy, tourism (lots of service industry jobs), a few regional hospitals, some (and some is emphasized) manufacturing, and the Navy (typed twice for emphasis).
Quote from: vicupstate on May 21, 2019, 08:48:17 AM
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.
I'd be happy to bet you a few Andrew Jacksons that nothing would change. That may be part of the puzzle but it's not at the core.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on May 27, 2019, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on May 21, 2019, 08:48:17 AM
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.
I'd be happy to bet you a few Andrew Jacksons that nothing would change. That may be part of the puzzle but it's not at the core.
It is an impediment to be sure. It would only help, even if it wasn't a panecea, which I never said it was. Virtually no one would object either. I would call it low-hanging fruit.
To me there's no reason not to change all streets to two way, save for State/Union.
1. I'd start with the Monroe, Bay, and all north-south streets EXCEPT Broad/Jefferson and Main/Ocean as these are the biggest impediments today and also should be the easiest to do.
2. Come back to Forsyth/Adams and Duval/Church/Ashley. While it shouldn't be crazy hard to do these, at least they alternate consistently.
3. Lastly, I'd do Broad/Jefferson and Main/Ocean. It really should be done but this will likely not come cheap with the bridge ramps.
At this point, the only remaining one way streets would be Union and State, which would be a giant pain and expensive to do, plus I think it would be a giant mess traffic count wise.
Even State and Union should be two-way (or at least reduce the number of lanes). Route all the Arlington Expressway traffic to MLK Parkway.
The Main/Ocean and State/Union pairs (but not Broad/Jefferson) are state roads, so approval by FDOT would be necessary.
Actually, even leaving those roads 1-way, coordination with FDOT would be necessary for all the 2-way conversions, as all of those streets cross either the State/Union or Main/Ocean state roadways. This is because of the traffic signals at each of the intersection would have to be modified to handle 2-way traffic on the local streets. Most likely, this would involve a new traffic signal pole one or two mast arms at each intersection. FDOT would probably want the City to share the costs of these.
Quote from: Kerry on May 28, 2019, 11:23:44 AM
Even State and Union should be two-way (or at least reduce the number of lanes). Route all the Arlington Expressway traffic to MLK Parkway.
Why don't we start with the non-complex ones first? Nothing says you couldn't do it later.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 28, 2019, 12:40:07 PM
The Main/Ocean and State/Union pairs (but not Broad/Jefferson) are state roads, so approval by FDOT would be necessary.
Actually, even leaving those roads 1-way, coordination with FDOT would be necessary for all the 2-way conversions, as all of those streets cross either the State/Union or Main/Ocean state roadways. This is because of the traffic signals at each of the intersection would have to be modified to handle 2-way traffic on the local streets. Most likely, this would involve a new traffic signal pole one or two mast arms at each intersection. FDOT would probably want the City to share the costs of these.
My guess is the COJ would have to bear the lion's share of the cost. FDOT typically doesn't care about anything other than how fast we can move cars, so this isn't going to be a priority with them.
I'm assuming the paint and signs are relatively cheap, but any idea of a ballpark cost per intersection for the signals?
Using data from this site: https://www.fdot.gov/programmanagement/estimates/historicalcostinformation/historicalcost.shtm
It looks like the cost of adding 1 vertical pole with 1 mast arm and appropriate traffic signals, but leaving the existing pedestrian signals; and assuming that the State Roads remain 1-way. Estimate cost for one new signal, about $40,000. There would be additional cost to remove the existing pavement markings and put down new ones. This will vary by the number of lanes, and whether you do a single intersection, or a series of them together.
PLEASE DO NOT HOLD ME TO THESE NUMBERS. (This is not a bid to do the work. :) ) There are a number of unknowns - like what is beneath where the new signal pole goes? Is there enough room in the right-of-way for the new pole, or would some additional land be needed?
Again, these guestimates assume Main, Ocean, State, and Union remain as they are today, one-way with the same number of lanes.
To convert the existing local 1-way streets intersecting Main and Ocean would cost about $560,000, from Bay to Ashley.
To do the same for all the local 1-way streets crossing State and Union, from Lee to Market, would be a little over $700,000, if I counted intersections correctly (18).
Converting those State Roads to two-way would significantly increase the cost, as each new signal pole would need 2 arms, instead of one. That would increase the cost along Main/Ocean by about $10,000 per installation. State/Ocean, since they are much wider would cost about $40,000 more, each.
Another concern is how to configure a 2-way Main Street? It has 3 lanes now. Do you continue the 2 lanes southbound / 1 northbound in newly converted block between State and Union? If you want 4 lanes, you have to steal it from the sidewalks (which are wider than normal for downtown). If so, that increases the cost significantly, as the drainage system would have to be redone, in addition to changes to the sidewalks and roadway. Ocean could handle 4 lanes, although it may take parking in some blocks. You would need some very clear signs to prevent southbound traffic on Ocean from trying to use the exit ramp leaving the Main Street Bridge at Bay.
Haven't they already run an estimate of the cost and it was like $8mm for all of DT?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 28, 2019, 05:23:34 PM
Another concern is how to configure a 2-way Main Street? It has 3 lanes now. Do you continue the 2 lanes southbound / 1 northbound in newly converted block between State and Union? If you want 4 lanes, you have to steal it from the sidewalks (which are wider than normal for downtown). If so, that increases the cost significantly, as the drainage system would have to be redone, in addition to changes to the sidewalks and roadway. Ocean could handle 4 lanes, although it may take parking in some blocks. You would need some very clear signs to prevent southbound traffic on Ocean from trying to use the exit ramp leaving the Main Street Bridge at Bay.
My thought is Main becomes two lanes in each direction to Forsyth, and the right northbound lane becomes turn only, but then it's one lane northbound up to State.
You obviously could do it, but I doubt that would be approved by FDOT.
Historically it was two in each direction, so either at some point the sidewalk was widened or they had significantly narrower lanes. I believe they are 12' lanes now. I suppose you could do 9' lanes (Laura is 8' so not impossible) but again, I doubt FDOT would do it.
All of this is why you wait on State/Union/Main/Ocean/Broad/Jefferson. If you do every other street we're be in a MUCH better position than we are now.
Sadly, just returning them to two-way is still thinking small. The entire right-of-way from building to building needs to be redone. New sidewalks, new street lighting, new sidewalk furniture, new landscaping, new parking strategy, new pavement where necessary, bike lanes (bike share is already dead), new way finding system, etc... The whole place needs a make-over and something still needs to be done with the homeless.
Quote from: Kerry on May 29, 2019, 10:12:18 AM
Sadly, just returning them to two-way is still thinking small. The entire right-of-way from building to building needs to be redone. New sidewalks, new street lighting, new sidewalk furniture, new landscaping, new parking strategy, new pavement where necessary, bike lanes (bike share is already dead), new way finding system, etc... The whole place needs a make-over and something still needs to be done with the homeless.
This is Jacksonville. Small is all you're going to get. Small steps eventually get you a respectable distance or optimistically get you to the point that bigger steps can be made based on the success of the smaller ones.
The main goal should be to activate the urban environment as fast, efficient and affordable as possible. Two-waying streets is only one small tool in that toolbox. Alone, like an isolated restaurant staying open in the evening, it means and accomplishes little.
So my recommendation would be to start small and apply the concept of clustering, complementing uses within a compact setting to this. In other words, cluster the two-way street work with complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting like existing buildings, businesses and storefronts on Adams.
With that in mind, I'd suggest focusing on Adams Street between Jefferson and Ocean. The lion's share of this stretch has buildings with storefronts on both sides and it has a few great placemaking/infill projects that will positively impact it.
1. Duval County Courthouse (a weekday anchor with a green space that with placemaking could become a decent destination --- think Nashville Courthouse Square)
2. JEA Headquarters (replaces a key blighted surface parking block with mid-rise and 800 workers)
3. Emerald Trail (one of the early Emerald Trail projects will be a redo of Hogan Street from the riverwalk to FSCJ and the Hogans Street Greenway)
4. Barnett/Laura Trio (a couple of hundred new residents and a hotel with street level retail/dining)
If you want to do anything with the sidewalks, you don't have to break the bank immediately. Just focus on getting a key central block right where you already have a cluster of existing businesses in place (as shown below).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU052719/i-4MJmJN3/0/01a92684/L/20190527_112346-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU052719/i-cXNFHRH/0/cb365c10/L/20190527_112319-L.jpg)
Between Laura and Hogan, Zodiac, Gili's, Kaza, Da Real Ting, Volstead, Breezy Jazz Club, Firehouse Subs and even Scotties gives you something to work with. Happy Grilled Cheese, Vagabond, Chamblins, Desert Rider, Quizno's, etc. are already in place to help you extend to include adjacent blocks of Hogan and Laura. When the Barnett and Courtyard by Marriott/Trio come online, they simply add to the mix. So, Giralda Plaza up the block of Adams between Hogan and Laura or go for three blocks (Julia to Main) if you're really ambitious.
Giralda Plaza in Downtown Coral Gables in 2015
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Miami/Coral-Gables-Giralda-Plaza/i-Hm58S6g/0/f5151854/L/Giralda-Before-2-L.jpg)
Giralda Plaza in 2019
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Miami/Miami-March-2019/i-cL8rj9K/0/c8294fd2/L/20190330_111630-L.jpg)
Full article: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/rethinking-adams-street-the-makeover-of-giralda-plaza/
The street can remain open but the idea would be to flood the wider sidewalks with a continuous block of outdoor dining and sitting opportunities, while also setting it up to be a place for occasional special street events. Given the location, it can easily be tied in with Hogan and Laura Street, both of which also have some existing businesses and wider sidewalks in place. In short, we should stop worrying about cranes and what's not present and focus on nailing it big with what we already have to create a situation where business owners can and want to operate at night and on weekends.
For those who equate spending millions with urban revitalization, focus on doing something with the old Furchgott's, 218 Adams and doing something with activating the first floor of the Ed Ball Building (yes, having DVI and a seldom used conference room take up former retail storefronts facing Adams are poor uses of a city-owned building).
As for the lesser traveled streets, coordinate two-waying when resurfacing projects pop up and consider replacing traffic signals with 4-way stop signs. This ain't Manhattan. If San Diego can get away with this in the Gaslamp District, Jax can too. Don't blow your wad on traffic signals. That's money that can be used to help small businesses set up storefronts, enhance building facades, two-way additional streets, etc. to achieve what should be the real goal.....activating the urban environment as fast, efficient and affordable as possible.
Incrementalism would be fine if we had a City government that could follow through on the ideas of the previous administrations. If we did one item at a time it would take 30 years, which means it would actually never get done. Timing wise, we can write the next 4 years off because Curry isn't interested in anything west of Hogan's Creek, and besides, we don't have the money.
You can only do incremental and it will take you 30 to 40 years (probably more) to fill up the Northbank. No place, not even OKC gets all its dreams implemented at once. Even a lot of stuff you see taking place to day has been talked about for decades in many districts. Also, you just said it yourself.....placing your hopes on Curry is a lost cause. He's a politician, not an urban revitalization specialist. If you think it would take 30 years doing something incrementally with little political support, what makes anything thing that same entity will fund $300 million worth of wish list items any time soon?
Quote from: thelakelander on May 29, 2019, 12:02:42 PM
The main goal should be to activate the urban environment as fast, efficient and affordable as possible. Two-waying streets is only one small tool in that toolbox. Alone, like an isolated restaurant staying open in the evening, it means and accomplishes little.
So my recommendation would be to start small and apply the concept of clustering, complementing uses within a compact setting to this. In other words, cluster the two-way street work with complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting like existing buildings, businesses and storefronts on Adams.
With that in mind, I'd suggest focusing on Adams Street between Jefferson and Ocean. The lion's share of this stretch has buildings with storefronts on both sides and it has a few great placemaking/infill projects that will positively impact it.
1. Duval County Courthouse (a weekday anchor with a green space that with placemaking could become a decent destination --- think Nashville Courthouse Square)
2. JEA Headquarters (replaces a key blighted surface parking block with mid-rise and 800 workers)
3. Emerald Trail (one of the early Emerald Trail projects will be a redo of Hogan Street from the riverwalk to FSCJ and the Hogans Street Greenway)
4. Barnett/Laura Trio (a couple of hundred new residents and a hotel with street level retail/dining)
If you want to do anything with the sidewalks, you don't have to break the bank immediately. Just focus on getting a key central block right where you already have a cluster of existing businesses in place (as shown below).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU052719/i-4MJmJN3/0/01a92684/L/20190527_112346-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU052719/i-cXNFHRH/0/cb365c10/L/20190527_112319-L.jpg)
Between Laura and Hogan, Zodiac, Gili's, Kaza, Da Real Ting, Volstead, Breezy Jazz Club, Firehouse Subs and even Scotties gives you something to work with. Happy Grilled Cheese, Vagabond, Chamblins, Desert Rider, Quizno's, etc. are already in place to help you extend to include adjacent blocks of Hogan and Laura. When the Barnett and Courtyard by Marriott/Trio come online, they simply add to the mix. So, Giralda Plaza up the block of Adams between Hogan and Laura or go for three blocks (Julia to Main) if you're really ambitious.
Giralda Plaza in Downtown Coral Gables in 2015
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Miami/Coral-Gables-Giralda-Plaza/i-Hm58S6g/0/f5151854/L/Giralda-Before-2-L.jpg)
Giralda Plaza in 2019
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Miami/Miami-March-2019/i-cL8rj9K/0/c8294fd2/L/20190330_111630-L.jpg)
Full article: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/rethinking-adams-street-the-makeover-of-giralda-plaza/
The street can remain open but the idea would be to flood the wider sidewalks with a continuous block of outdoor dining and sitting opportunities, while also setting it up to be a place for occasional special street events. Given the location, it can easily be tied in with Hogan and Laura Street, both of which also have some existing businesses and wider sidewalks in place. In short, we should stop worrying about cranes and what's not present and focus on nailing it big with what we already have to create a situation where business owners can and want to operate at night and on weekends.
For those who equate spending millions with urban revitalization, focus on doing something with the old Furchgott's, 218 Adams and doing something with activating the first floor of the Ed Ball Building (yes, having DVI and a seldom used conference room take up former retail storefronts facing Adams are poor uses of a city-owned building).
As for the lesser traveled streets, coordinate two-waying when resurfacing projects pop up and consider replacing traffic signals with 4-way stop signs. This ain't Manhattan. If San Diego can get away with this in the Gaslamp District, Jax can too. Don't blow your wad on traffic signals. That's money that can be used to help small businesses set up storefronts, enhance building facades, two-way additional streets, etc. to achieve what should be the real goal.....activating the urban environment as fast, efficient and affordable as possible.
100% right.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 29, 2019, 01:50:18 PM
No place, not even OKC gets all its dreams implemented at once.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oFyDpijVlI0bSoB8Y/100.webp?cid=790b76115ceeed82365237664dde2a61&rid=100.webp)