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An editorial by Jacksonville City Councilman Danny Becton regarding the future of Downtown Jacksonville: We have to Decide What We Want, Not Wait for Others Tell Us What We Need.
Read more: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/councilman-becton-believes-downtown-needs-a-vision-plan/
To paraphrase Enrique Penalosa- a City is just a means to a way of life. First we have to decide how we want to live. While I agree if we want walkable urbanism we have to plan for it, but I just don't know how many people in Jax want it - mostly because they have never been exposed to it.
I don't believe we need to teach Joe Blow in Mandarin or Argyle what walkable urbanism is or sell it to them. We also don't need to waste considerable time trying to attract them downtown. They move there for a reason. No amount of parks, ferris wheels or retail is going to attract them DT on a consistent basis.
Jax is big enough to have different types of environments for all. Just the outcry from the Landing situation is proof that we do have a ton of people who want better, know better and are willing to offer their input for the better. What we don't have right now is a mayoral administration that desires public input to maximize what DT can be. It's quite puzzling and sad. Even this editorial is from the council representative of the suburban district that SJTC is located in. Even he realizes it's smart to have a publicly vetted vision and has expressed how having one has helped areas in his district like Baymeadows.
Quote from: Kerry on May 06, 2019, 08:57:29 AM
To paraphrase Enrique Penalosa- a City is just a means to a way of life. First we have to decide how we want to live. While I agree if we want walkable urbanism we have to plan for it, but I just don't know how many people in Jax want it - mostly because they have never been exposed to it.
I think you have a incorrect view of most people in Jacksonville. Remember, this city is filled with a lot of people that came from other places. This isn't a rust belt city that people have lived in for generations. My wife's family has been here since the late 1950's and that's the exception among a lot of people.
But, I do think that many people are consumed with their daily lives, kids, jobs, etc. and don't have time to push the elected officials to "act right".
If you want to blame the politicians for where we are today so be it, but I don't think you're going to get very far pushing the general public as a blame for downtown's state.
I heard an urban planner once say, "1/3 of the people want to be downtown, 1/3 of the people want to be in the suburbs, and 1/3 of the people want to live in whatever environment best works for them." I think he's absolutely right. Right now not only are we not getting the 1/3 that want to live in whatever environment, we aren't holding on the 1/3 of the people that want to be downtown. That isn't the general public's fault.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2019, 09:25:11 AM
I don't believe we need to teach Joe Blow in Mandarin or Argyle what walkable urbanism is or sell it to them. We also don't need to waste considerable time trying to attract them downtown. They move there for a reason. No amount of parks, ferris wheels or retail is going to attract them DT on a consistent basis.
Jax is big enough to have different types of environments for all. Just the outcry from the Landing situation is proof that we do have a ton of people who want better, know better and are willing to offer their input for the better. What we don't have right now is a mayoral administration that desires public input to maximize what DT can be. It's quite puzzling and sad. Even this editorial is from the council representative of the suburban district that SJTC is located in. Even he realizes it's smart to have a publicly vetted vision and has expressed how having one has helped areas in his district like Baymeadows.
You are going to have to convince Joe Blow in Mandarin to pay for it. Downtown revitalization and reurbanization can cost over $1 billion. If the City doesn't sell the suburbanites on it, it won't happen.
I was in Greenville, SC 2 weeks ago and their urban renaissance has taken over 30 years and hundreds of millions of dollars. If you haven't been to downtown Greenville it is a Must-See for any New Urbanist.
www.saveourgreenways.com/HowGreenville.php
Oklahoma City developed their Core to Shore plan in 2008 while MAPS itself started in 1994. OKC has spent over $3 billion on downtown.
Jax isn't going to do that without buy-in from the vast majority of the residents. If you think Jax can do that without educating the masses you are going to be disappointed.
Remember, this is the city that voted to raise its sales tax in 2000 to pay for things, many of these things were downtown. BJP was VERY will articulated in terms of what the cost would be and what people would get. Peyton then managed to botch the courthouse 4 years later but that's another issue.
Was it perfect? No. For example, the funding paid for a larger capital investment in the library system but didn't really outline how this investment would be maintained. But, they got a lot more right than wrong.
I've always felt that in Jacksonville, if you articulate a plan people will listen and honestly consider it.
Quote from: Kerry on May 06, 2019, 10:20:20 AM
You are going to have to convince Joe Blow in Mandarin to pay for it. Downtown revitalization and reurbanization can cost over $1 billion. If the City doesn't sell the suburbanites on it, it won't happen.
I was in Greenville, SC 2 weeks ago and their urban renaissance has taken over 30 years and hundreds of millions of dollars. If you haven't been to downtown Greenville it is a Must-See for any New Urbanist.
I've been to Greenville more times than you and I'm familiar with the history of their urban renaissance. I'm also pretty familiar with what it cost to revitalize communities and can tell you without a doubt that Jax has spent billions over the last 50 years in the name of urban revitalization and has very little to show for it. In reality, when you do things right, it doesn't take as much money as you think it may.....and certainly a lot less than we've invested to date and what the mayor's office is spending this days. Tampa is a great recent example. That place was just as dead and struggling as Jax's Northbank 15 years ago.
Quote from: Kerry on May 06, 2019, 10:20:20 AM
Jax isn't going to do that without buy-in from the vast majority of the residents. If you think Jax can do that without educating the masses you are going to be disappointed.
We did vote for BJP. Nevertheless, COJ doesn't need to vote on anything to get the basics of revitalization right. There's clearly a market for urban infill and development and no one in Mandarin needs to be educated about the need for clean public parks, well lit streets, clean public right-of-way, schools, adequate water/sewer, etc. Cluster those two things together with smart planning and modification of zoning policies that prohibit certain urban conditions from being reality, and you'll be well on your way. Don't worry about how to afford museums and tourist attractions or trying to replicate town center in downtown. With a vision, you'll be set up to take advantage of unique economic opportunities when they present themselves. Right now, whether its JTA/DIA failing to maximize the existing Skyway route, Florida State University College of Medicine going to Daytona instead of Jax a decade ago, the 2015 Landing plan being iced by partisan politics or the mayor's office going on their current demolition derby, we continue to take advantage of several unique economic opportunities. Start with getting the free and cheap things right instead of worrying about how to get suburbanites to tax themselves more for an aquarium, museum, floating ship museum, Lot J or LRT.
Has Jacksonville ever done a housing study to actually determine downtown housing demand?
I'm not sure but I doubt one is really needed right now. Jax hasn't had a problem filling residential units downtown.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-residences-at-barnett-apartments-downtown-now-leasing
More than 800 applicants for 107 apartments.
There's a demand.
A housing study gives developers data to get construction loans, tells them who is interested in living downtown, what kind of units they are looking for, and how much they are able to pay. Nearly every city I can think of has done one and many are available on-line.
https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2018/12/17/downtown-greenvilles-wealth-apartments-theres-room-more/2080708002/
Attracting developers to downtown isn't a problem. The problem is city hall.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2019, 11:31:38 PM
Attracting developers to downtown isn't a problem. The problem is city hall.
We better define "developers" because most of the "developers" proposing stuff in Jax are the used car salesmen type. They don't count in the real world.
Quote from: Kerry on May 07, 2019, 08:47:22 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2019, 11:31:38 PM
Attracting developers to downtown isn't a problem. The problem is city hall.
We better define "developers" because most of the "developers" proposing stuff in Jax are the used car salesmen type. They don't count in the real world.
Do you honestly think that we have worse developers than other cities?
First of all, many developers in Jax aren't actually based here.
Second, every city has some shady developers. The difference is most cities go through a better vetting process (or at a minimum hold to the predetermined vetting rules).
You keep wanting to blame the residents and businesspeople here. I suppose if you just want to blame all of these people and a concrete wall that's your right. But, it's misguided.
It's like blaming a wealthy person for hiring a good tax lawyer to get every tax break they're legally entitled to. Go ahead, but it's the wrong person.
Quote from: Kerry on May 07, 2019, 08:47:22 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2019, 11:31:38 PM
Attracting developers to downtown isn't a problem. The problem is city hall.
We better define "developers" because most of the "developers" proposing stuff in Jax are the used car salesmen type. They don't count in the real world.
Huh? You can't be serious. This has to be a joke.....right?!
Quote from: thelakelander on May 07, 2019, 10:21:44 AM
Quote from: Kerry on May 07, 2019, 08:47:22 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2019, 11:31:38 PM
Attracting developers to downtown isn't a problem. The problem is city hall.
We better define "developers" because most of the "developers" proposing stuff in Jax are the used car salesmen type. They don't count in the real world.
Huh? You can't be serious. This has to be a joke.....right?!
Most of the Jax developers actually build with Legos. Being an Urban Planner I assumed you knew this of course.
Here are three with active projects taking place in the urban core that aren't asking for public incentives.
Chance
https://www.chance-partners.com/communities
Regency
https://www.regencycenters.com/
Bristol
https://www.bristoldevelopment.com/
All are pretty credible. However, they aren't proposing the gimmicky stuff that excites civic leaders and media, so they don't get as much press coverage.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 07, 2019, 10:52:34 AM
Here are three with active projects taking place in the urban core that aren't asking for public incentives.
Chance
https://www.chance-partners.com/communities
Regency
https://www.regencycenters.com/
Bristol
https://www.bristoldevelopment.com/
All are pretty credible. However, they aren't proposing the gimmicky stuff that excites civic leaders and media, so they don't get as much press coverage.
I'm not saying nothing is being built but if this was NASCAR Jacksonville would be black flagged.
I think your concerns about what ills downtown may be misplaced. I don't think you can blame DT Jax's issues on the development community. Placing downtown revitalization hopes in businesses built around making profits is never a good recipe for success. Unless you have a billionaire sugar daddy like Dan Gilbert in Detroit (some in Detroit would argue that this has not been equitable...), willing to move all of their businesses to the core to create a market for things to happen, you'll end up screwing taxpayers with little to show at the end of the day.
I don't find JAX developers to be risk takers or pioneers or undertaking especially difficult projects as a rule. However, given the govermental environment they are working under, I can't blame them for sticking to safe routine type projects. There is no master plan, no vision, no consistency, no adherence to standards. There is considerable turnover too. Who in their right mind would invest in that environment?
Quote from: vicupstate on May 07, 2019, 12:47:57 PM
There is no master plan, no vision, no consistency, no adherence to standards. There is considerable turnover too. Who in their right mind would invest in that environment?
This! Anyone want change with DT Jax's fortunes, start here. Spending time attempting to convince suburbanites to visit or getting residents to tax themselves more for DT development are a complete waste of time and energy if we can't get the "free" ground level and structural things right.