Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-c7DBfRz/0/a7777ec9/L/Jacksonville%20Landing%20-%20WB-L.jpg)
On Wednesday, the city of Jacksonville officially took ownership of the Jacksonville Landing, with intentions of immediately removing many minority owned small businesses and razing the place as soon as possible. While the Mayor's Office continues its efforts to limit public engagement regarding the Landing's future, a troubling trend of historically inaccurate storytelling around the topic is appearing more and more in recent media reports. Here is a quick look at what came out of the most recent public engagement process and how the Mayor's plan is dramatically different and underwhelming at best.
Full article: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/repealing-deception-the-landing-and-public-engagement/
So right now, what can we do about this? What power do we have, or people we can speak to, that can either stop demolition in favor of an RFP immediately or demand a real, actual site plan before demolition?
For now, you can contact/email council representatives and the mayor's office and voice your opinions and concerns. You can also do this through their social media pages. Also feel free to share the things being exposed here with your own network of friends, family members, co-workers, classmates, etc.
http://www.coj.net/city-council.aspx
http://www.coj.net/mayor/contact-us
They say closed mouths don't get fed and if you're not at the table, you're likely the meal. Be warned, there's a lot of cheerleading going on these days, where people will tend to express opinions and biases on the Landing, as opposed to embracing a call to simply issue a RFP now for the market to decide, which simply brings more creativity and opportunity for Jax to select from. Just swat them off your shoulders and keep on moving. They'll be the first in line to order at the Landing turned food hall, public market, etc.
This town is also full of people who know better but selfishly sit quiet for a variety of reasons why the community we live in and love gets gutted like a fish. Others are simply trying to live life and could care less of what happens in town, as long as their lights are on, there's a roof over their head and food on the table. Getting active won't mean you'll rectify every situation, but it will build momentum, accountability and knock a few off their perch in the long run. In the process, you may lose a city hall annex or Jax Landing but the ground swell of public support may be instrumental in altering the future.
Good article in the Jax Daily Record this morning. This quote basically gets down to the gist of why the Mayor's plan for the Landing should be publicly vetted. These guys are politicians, not planners, architects, engineers, developers, etc. They'd actually benefit from more open engagement and issuing a RFP. This brings in a fresh and creative set of eyes that can visualize and make things happen that they'll continue to struggle with, blow a lot of public money, fail and eventually leave town for the next political gig with the rest of us left to live on with the after effects.
QuoteGoldstein said the DIA and UDA focused on the junction of Laura Street and the river.
Curry's office has not released an updated plan of what will happen to the property post-demolition, but Goldstein said she hopes the 2015 proposal gets a second look.
The key difference between Curry's plan and the UDA design, Goldstein said, is the 2015 version activates the Landing property with amenities and shops, and that shade is incorporated into the outdoor space
A rendering of Curry's proposal released in 2018 shows green space or a park where the Landing stood, flanked by two mixed-use structures.
"(Mayor Curry's proposal) may be lively when there's a concert or event, but when it goes dark, it goes from an asset to a liability," Goldstein said.
Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-jacksonville-landings-future-mayor-set-on-demolition-but-some-say-not-so-fast
Behind the scenes the Jags must be closer to pulling out than even I can imagine. This level of out-right lying is unprecedented.
Can we quickly appreciate the gaslighting on display here.
Curry's empty grass lot is the same plan as the 2015 Wakefield Beasley concept?
Demolishing a city-owned structure with no recovery plan is the same thing as subsidizing the redevelopment of a Sleiman-owned Landing?
It's structurally impossible/cost prohibitive to cut a path through non-load bearing glass and aluminum?
It's pretty scary that the public is being fed flat-out lies, and citizens and incoming members of city council who raise legitimate questions are treated as if they are crazy.
Brian Hughes likely isn't going to be ousted as CAO, but the DIA needs new leadership quickly. Can you imagine Aundra Wallace talking like this?
We can have a new slogan out of this. Jacksonville: "Tear it Down and They Won't Come!" What do you think? I love the idea of another eyesore hole on the waterfront. Great concept! Thanks Lenny! Thanks City Council! Thanks blind non-visionaries! Thanks for the former Landing! Thanks for the former Metro Park! Thanks for the Old Courthouse and City Hall Annex! Thanks for the wonderful new developments that will replace them! I LOVE WEEDS! I LOVE PARKING LOTS! I LOVE BROKEN UP CONCRETE THAT MARKS THE FORMER OLD TRASHY BUILDINGS THAT RUINED THE CITY! AND I LOVE THE EMPTY HOLES IN THE CITYSCAPE! CELEBRATE OUR PROGRESS!
at the very least, couldn't the city reach out to Hollywood to incorporate all of these demolitions into the next Fast & the Furious movie. Picture Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson walking across the remnants of a blown-up Jacksonville Landing, he glances over at the "Landing" sign now sitting on a pile of rubble, smoldering. He shoots the camera one of his patented eyebrow raises, smiles, and says...."well, I landed".
Pure gold.
(Attention, Michael Bay, I am available for script writing assistance)
I'm starting to think the best voice that people have within City Council will end up being Matt Carlucci (and with more than just this issue). Think about it:
- He endorsed Nat Glover over his party candidate John Peyton when he didn't make the runoff in 2003 for mayor
- He has enough popularity on his own that he doesn't really need to ride Curry's Coat Tails
- I don't know him personally, but aside from another office in Jacksonville, I don't get the Tallahassee/Washington vibes from him
- He's already said that he differs with Curry on this.
yeah yeah yeah. Just to depart from the GroupThink on this blog, I can't wait until the hideous eyesore of the Landing is gone. I love this high dudgeon after decades of no one stepping up to fix it. The idea of an RFP resulting in a mad rush from the marketplace to preserve this thing is absurd in my view. Putting lipstick on this pig is not the answer.
So go ahead. Vent.
Quote from: downtownbrown on May 02, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
yeah yeah yeah. Just to depart from the GroupThink on this blog, I can't wait until the hideous eyesore of the Landing is gone. I love this high dudgeon after decades of no one stepping up to fix it. The idea of an RFP resulting in a mad rush from the marketplace to preserve this thing is absurd in my view. Putting lipstick on this pig is not the answer.
So go ahead. Vent.
What do you propose instead?
How does your proposal increase vibrancy?
How viable is your proposal from financial and execution standpoints?
^ It's a prime piece of property in a mid sized city. Knowing our city, they will let it go for a bargain. At a reduced price, a developer may want to demolish and build from the ground up, but why force their hand? It will be cheaper for anyone to reuse the existing structure, so lets give them that option. Heck. Lets issue the RFP now and the city can offer to demolish the structure for the builder if that's what the winning bid requires.
Quote from: downtownbrown on May 02, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
yeah yeah yeah. Just to depart from the GroupThink on this blog, I can't wait until the hideous eyesore of the Landing is gone. I love this high dudgeon after decades of no one stepping up to fix it. The idea of an RFP resulting in a mad rush from the marketplace to preserve this thing is absurd in my view. Putting lipstick on this pig is not the answer.
So go ahead. Vent.
^No worries. Your post literally confirms you don't know much about the history of how and why things have gotten to this point in time. If you did, I do believe you'd reevaluate your opinion. Nevertheless, Brian Hughes doesn't really know either since he's a relatively newcomer to the city. In any event, at the end of the day, I do believe, no matter what side of the fence one falls on, it's hard to want to limit opportunities for great redevelopment in downtown. With that said, if this general belief is applied to the Jacksonville Landing, we need to place our personal biases and opinions aside and open the opportunity for a RFP for qualified parties to redevelop the site.
Perhaps that's full adaptive reuse, maybe it's a mix of old and new or perhaps it's a full blown raze and rebuild. Seriously, what's wrong with letting the market and professionals who know what they're doing become a part of the redevelopment process? Brian Hughes isn't an architect, planner, engineer, developer or long time resident. He should be the last one telling people in Jax, what's iconic to them or if adaptive reuse is structurally or financially feasible or not.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 02, 2019, 01:23:36 PM
^ It's a prime piece of property in a mid sized city. Knowing our city, they will let it go for a bargain. At a reduced price, a developer may want to demolish and build from the ground up, but why force their hand? It will be cheaper for anyone to reuse the existing structure, so lets give them that option. Heck. Lets issue the RFP now and the city can offer to demolish the structure for the builder if that's what the winning bid requires.
The City has no intention of issuing an RFP for this location.
How many years has it been since the talk first started about removing the Liberty Street deck and razing the city hall annex and the old county courthouse? How many years has it been since the DIA talked about issuing all the RFPs for city owned land and vacant buildings in DT. None of these projects are done and the two demo jobs are overbudget and behind in timeline. It will suck for the Hyatt to have the riverwalk closed off on both sides of it for months and then vacant lots for years afterward.
So some politician telling you they'll issue a RFP after they demolish the building, but providing no timeline of when that will happen or promise of if anything will even come out of it means literally nothing if your concern is about downtown vibrancy now and keeping the businesses that are hear now, open, alive and well.
Even if they issued a RFP for complete reuse of the facility today, you'd still be looking at two to three years before renovation would be completed. Since they literally have no plan other than to give a demo contractor a handout, it means for the new few years this site will be as dead as any other morbid location in downtown. By the time something happens, Curry, Hughes and the current bunch will be long gone and on to their next political job and we'll be the ones dealing with the war zone left.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 02, 2019, 01:39:03 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on May 02, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
yeah yeah yeah. Just to depart from the GroupThink on this blog, I can't wait until the hideous eyesore of the Landing is gone. I love this high dudgeon after decades of no one stepping up to fix it. The idea of an RFP resulting in a mad rush from the marketplace to preserve this thing is absurd in my view. Putting lipstick on this pig is not the answer.
So go ahead. Vent.
^No worries. Your post literally confirms you don't know much about the history of how and why things have gotten to this point in time. If you did, I do believe you'd reevaluate your opinion. Nevertheless, Brian Hughes doesn't really know either since he's a relatively newcomer to the city. In any event, at the end of the day, I do believe, no matter what side of the fence one falls on, it's hard to want to limit opportunities for great redevelopment in downtown. With that said, if this general belief is applied to the Jacksonville Landing, we need to place our personal biases and opinions aside and open the opportunity for a RFP for qualified parties to redevelop the site.
Perhaps that's full adaptive reuse, maybe it's a mix of old and new or perhaps it's a full blown raze and rebuild. Seriously, what's wrong with letting the market and professionals who know what they're doing become a part of the redevelopment process? Brian Hughes isn't an architect, planner, engineer, developer or long time resident. He should be the last one telling people in Jax, what's iconic to them or if adaptive reuse is structurally or financially feasible or not.
I have a good enough grasp of the history here. I don't agree that an RFP would change anything. Investors are always free to make offers. They don't need to wait for an RFP. Where are they? Where have they been for decades? Why didn't Rummel say, "Hey City, I love this magnificent Icon of Jacksonville. Let me refresh it"? Why hasn't anyone else? Because it's a white (orange) elephant, outdated, and unattractive. This blog is blaming Hughes for the fact that there IS NO MARKET for this property. I think that's wrong headed, and adaptive reuse drawings won't ever change that. Money is smart. Money does not love the Landing.
If you were a developer and looking for your next project, would you have really taken the time to put a proposal together while the COJ and Sleiman were busy publicly throwing poo at each other like two animals at the Zoo?
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2019, 02:22:13 PM
If you were a developer and looking for your next project, would you have really taken the time to put a proposal together while the COJ and Sleiman were busy publicly throwing poo at each other like two animals at the Zoo?
...and the City shafted the last RFP respondents. Hell, even JTA pulled the plug on the Bike Share RFP after 4 groups responded. I have a hard time believing anyone not named Khan would ever want to do business with the City, especially when so many other cities are available to do business with.
QuoteI have a good enough grasp of the history here. I don't agree that an RFP would change anything.
Unless, you're fine with the space being a grass lawn and dead at night and on weekends, you'll need to RFP for whatever you ultimately want to do.....even management and programming of an active park since COJ isn't going to be effective at doing it. So let's remove the RFP won't change anything position from the conversation. We have to eventually do it anyway.
QuoteInvestors are always free to make offers. They don't need to wait for an RFP. Where are they? Where have they been for decades?
If you're familiar with the site's history, you would know that up until Wednesday, the Landing has always been in private ownership. You would also know that Sleiman has proposed redevelopment and expansion of the property (with the assistance of public incentives) since the day he acquired the place in 2003. So there was an investor for 16 straight years that had a proposal on the table for redevelopment. However, for a number of reasons that investor did not have the city's support.....which essentially means....no development. So, these arguments aren't strong ones for demolition without an economic recovery plan going forward.
QuoteWhy didn't Rummel say, "Hey City, I love this magnificent Icon of Jacksonville. Let me refresh it"? Why hasn't anyone else? Because it's a white (orange) elephant, outdated, and unattractive.
Why would anyone expect Rummel to go to the city and say let me refresh a building someone else owns? Rummel needs to worry about getting his own project off the ground than worrying about the property of another developer that has more experience in the commercial retail development industry.
QuoteThis blog is blaming Hughes for the fact that there IS NO MARKET for this property.
You or Hughes (both of which supported spending $36 million on a Berkman II deal that was as risky as they've ever come, that ultimately blew up despite the public handouts offered) aren't exactly qualified to make that decision. What you bring to the table is an opinion, like the rest of the people on this blog. What Jax needs to do is open the door to the market to decide a few things than letting personal biases and opinions impact overall future development opportunities.
QuoteI think that's wrong headed, and adaptive reuse drawings won't ever change that. Money is smart. Money does not love the Landing.
That's a false narrative. A prominent developer purchased the place and proposed redevelopment. Local politics killed that from ever taking place. That developer still is taking home $22 million so money did love the Landing. Hell, a lot of smart money lovemaking was made with the Landing at the public's expense.
Bravo Ennis!
Another HUGE problem today in Jax (and elsewhere) is publicly elected officials have lost site of the fact they work for us. Not the other way around. I've heard a strong groundswell of support for not destroying The Landing UNTIL there is a plan in place. I work downtown and can tell you it will be a homeless park if it becomes a greenspace.
Or offer it up for sale and do not proceed until a contract and viable plan is in place. I am not a big fan of RFP but it sure beats destruction with NO PLAN in place.
As I drove past it today, i took a long look at the facade. I was surprised it did not offend me, and one can actually see through the space to the river beyond if not going too fast. This blog has come up with some excellent suggestions for going forward, and the city has come up with NONE.
Quote from: downtownbrown on May 02, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
yeah yeah yeah. Just to depart from the GroupThink on this blog, I can't wait until the hideous eyesore of the Landing is gone. I love this high dudgeon after decades of no one stepping up to fix it. The idea of an RFP resulting in a mad rush from the marketplace to preserve this thing is absurd in my view. Putting lipstick on this pig is not the answer.
So go ahead. Vent.
How do you like the Berkman II site? Howe about the long-awaited Liberty Street rebuild that is now going to take even longer and cost even more?
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2019, 02:22:13 PM
If you were a developer and looking for your next project, would you have really taken the time to put a proposal together while the COJ and Sleiman were busy publicly throwing poo at each other like two animals at the Zoo?
more importantly why would a developer propose something for a building owned by another developer?
Would the $22 million + be the most expensive vacant lot in COJ history?
Curious if the city has ever spent more to create literally nothing.
And to add to all of this, we are literally driving small businesses AWAY from the core. Seriously, what type of meth is the COJ smoking. My heart breaks for these business owners and employees. They like us want to see downtown succeed and are essentially being driven out with a piss poor "relocation package" by our city. Good job city leaders!!!
Clearly COJ leadership doesn't care. Heck the Mayor called folks daring to suggest a different path for the Landing online "lazy Twitter tough guys."
"Self proclaimed pundits on Duval opining on our plan for the Landing either have a strategic play or are lazy twitter tough guys. I think it is the latter given what I've seen last 4 years.Keep fighting the lazy fight & waging war on social media.I'mma keep winning for the people."
Your mayor actually posted this on Twitter.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 03, 2019, 10:23:39 AM
Clearly COJ leadership doesn't care. Heck the Mayor called folks daring to suggest a different path for the Landing online "lazy Twitter tough guys."
If these are the types of responses being made, they should probably stay off social media. However, those quotes pretty much confirm they know the community isn't buying this full line and sinker. So that's likely for the cheerleaders out there but it's not an effective way to move forward with whatever they really want to do in downtown. This isn't a political campaign. This is the core of the city we live in. We'll be here long after the current administration leaves town for their political assignment. Hopefully, they can leave successful by being inclusive. While they may be fighting it right now, they need the community's help in making downtown Jax the best that it can be. So, the community should keep it up and do what most of the council have not done in past months. As more and more residents and business community leaders get vocal about doing things right, their elected representatives will begin to speak out. Kudos to CM-Elect Carclucci over the last few weeks and now kudos to CM Becton for his editorial today.
Who's next?
QuoteEditorial: We have to Decide What We Want, Not Wait for Others Tell Us What We Need.
Jacksonville, FL (May 2, 2019) (unedited) -- Over the past month or so, I have had the opportunity, one-on-one to discuss in length the issue of our downtown vision with members of the Downtown Investment Authority and others. These conversations have stemmed from years of observation whereby projects have come before the city and failed, and other ideas have surfaced within public view and been filed somewhere to collect dust without a formidable conclusion.
This is where I concede, we as a city have not decisively determined what it is that we want versus waiting on others to tell us what we need. This again, I submit is a recipe for inaction and more likely to result in projects failing to come before us because as a city we have not decided for ourselves what a successful development of our entire property and how it fits into our downtown looks like.
Many big ideas have been presented like an aquarium, a convention center, mixed use visions of restaurants, office space, parks and more that all have somewhat been presented but no definitive decision made. This again, I present does not allow a picture to be painted that communicates to others, come build it.
As many of you know, District 11 has been a suburban growth area for many years. In addition to constantly planning new development, we have been working on how to redevelop older areas like Baymeadows with ideas of what it is we want, not what others again feel we need. In 2012, after some community input a Community Vision Plan was created and adopted by City Council.
It is this planning tool that we are using today to move development forward. As a representative of the area, I constantly have discussions and work with stakeholders to create that vision where we look for puzzle pieces to be filled which meet the needs of the community. This is what I contend will have the highest degree of success as it is those stakeholders who will be ultimately making it successful.
Also, recently I have been involved with what is by far the most decisive picture of a plan for development involving the JTB-I295 Southeast Quadrant with the Skinner family's 1,063-acre legacy that I have ever seen. This formed-base code plan was initiated by a big investment of the Skinners with collaboration of a Nashville, TN firm, Town Planning & Urban Design, who constructed what I would offer, is a template for what I am trying to convey. This plan, once completed and approved by Council, will tell land buyers what it is that they must do, not what they feel needs to be done.
It was recently announced that one of my future colleagues on City Council feels that a community charrette needs to be implemented for the now available city property of The Landing. I agree with that idea, except that the charrette and discussion should include the entire North Bank and more, not just one piece. If you are not looking at the big picture, then how do you expect to complete the puzzle without including all the pieces?
I submit that to fully have a successful downtown that we should ourselves develop that vision and not wait for others to plan it for us.
By Councilman Danny Becton, District 11
http://www.dannybecton.org/editorial-we-have-to-decide-what-we-want
QuoteThis isn't a political campaign.
It is for them. Always has been. The current regime is using JAX governemnt as the minor leagues for bigger things later. This is why you don't elect political operatives for government office.
The best thing JAX could do long term is to amend the charter (by citizen petition obviously) to make electiosn non-partisan. That would get rid of some of this.
Ouch!
QuoteNate Monroe: Politics, not public input, is to blame for Landing stagnation
COMMENTARY | Mayor Lenny Curry has fashioned himself a different kind of Jacksonville chief executive, building over the past few years a creative — albeit flimsy — origin myth about what came before him and how he has since delivered the city from mediocrity.
Curry has indirectly criticized his predecessors — several of whom he sought endorsements from during his re-election, with tepid success — for relying too much on public input, for desiring consensus, for talking issues to death and in the process ultimately doing nothing. That kind of navel gazing, Curry has said publicly time and again, is responsible for so much stagnation. Heck, it's why the Jacksonville Landing has fallen into disrepair.
Ah yes, the Jacksonville Landing, downtown's notorious underachiever and divisive redevelopment puzzle. Taken at face value, Curry's argument about the defunct waterfront mall is appealing. It has indeed languished for years, and now Curry, after spending an enormous sum — $18 million — is on the brink of tearing it down.
The critics — those ninnies who now complain that it's not wise to tear a structure down without a plan to replace it — they would just have us talk the issue into oblivion. But not Curry, Man of Action. The Decider. Savior Curry. Reform Curry. The Quarterback.
This is nonsense, a dangerous myth that would grant a secretive mayor already inclined to bypass public input permission to continue doing it.
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190503/nate-monroe-politics-not-public-input-is-to-blame-for-landing-stagnation
Quote from: CityLife on May 03, 2019, 11:20:27 AM
"Self proclaimed pundits on Duval opining on our plan for the Landing either have a strategic play or are lazy twitter tough guys. I think it is the latter given what I've seen last 4 years.Keep fighting the lazy fight & waging war on social media.I'mma keep winning for the people."
Your mayor actually posted this on Twitter.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 03, 2019, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 03, 2019, 10:23:39 AM
Clearly COJ leadership doesn't care. Heck the Mayor called folks daring to suggest a different path for the Landing online "lazy Twitter tough guys."
If these are the types of responses being made, they should probably stay off social media. However, those quotes pretty much confirm they know the community isn't buying this full line and sinker. So that's likely for the cheerleaders out there but it's not an effective way to move forward with whatever they really want to do in downtown. This isn't a political campaign. This is the core of the city we live in. We'll be here long after the current administration leaves town for their political assignment. Hopefully, they can leave successful by being inclusive. While they may be fighting it right now, they need the community's help in making downtown Jax the best that it can be. So, the community should keep it up and do what most of the council have not done in past months. As more and more residents and business community leaders get vocal about doing things right, their elected representatives will begin to speak out. Kudos to CM-Elect Carclucci over the last few weeks and now kudos to CM Becton for his editorial today.
Who's next?
This isn't something one says from a position of strength. It's something one says out of weakness and vulnerability.
Welp, looks like we still have Curry a little longer. I wonder what historical property he's going to aim to destroy next. All in favor of making an argument that we need a place for food and entertainment- "give you the new bison for the shipyards" . It's so obvious that's the goal.
Another thing, off topic.... they really need to make these restaurants inside the buildings of the downtown core visible with outside seating. If they do tear the Landing down and go with this horrible plan at lease do that.... and as some said... this grassland will be a place for the homeless. I don't know why work isn't being done too help get homeless people off the street more.... when my family and friends visit and pass thru downtown they all say it looks like Jax has a homeless problem.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 03, 2019, 01:35:42 PM
Ouch!
QuoteNate Monroe: Politics, not public input, is to blame for Landing stagnation
COMMENTARY | Mayor Lenny Curry has fashioned himself a different kind of Jacksonville chief executive, building over the past few years a creative — albeit flimsy — origin myth about what came before him and how he has since delivered the city from mediocrity.
Curry has indirectly criticized his predecessors — several of whom he sought endorsements from during his re-election, with tepid success — for relying too much on public input, for desiring consensus, for talking issues to death and in the process ultimately doing nothing. That kind of navel gazing, Curry has said publicly time and again, is responsible for so much stagnation. Heck, it's why the Jacksonville Landing has fallen into disrepair.
Ah yes, the Jacksonville Landing, downtown's notorious underachiever and divisive redevelopment puzzle. Taken at face value, Curry's argument about the defunct waterfront mall is appealing. It has indeed languished for years, and now Curry, after spending an enormous sum — $18 million — is on the brink of tearing it down.
The critics — those ninnies who now complain that it's not wise to tear a structure down without a plan to replace it — they would just have us talk the issue into oblivion. But not Curry, Man of Action. The Decider. Savior Curry. Reform Curry. The Quarterback.
This is nonsense, a dangerous myth that would grant a secretive mayor already inclined to bypass public input permission to continue doing it.
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190503/nate-monroe-politics-not-public-input-is-to-blame-for-landing-stagnation
Finally getting around to reading the article. Is it just me, or is Nate Monroe the best thing that ever happened at the Times-Union? i truly appreciate when someone cuts through the spin bullshit and tells the reader what is REALLY going on.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 02, 2019, 02:05:15 PM
How many years has it been since the talk first started about removing the Liberty Street deck and razing the city hall annex and the old county courthouse? How many years has it been since the DIA talked about issuing all the RFPs for city owned land and vacant buildings in DT. None of these projects are done and the two demo jobs are overbudget and behind in timeline. It will suck for the Hyatt to have the riverwalk closed off on both sides of it for months and then vacant lots for years afterward.
So some politician telling you they'll issue a RFP after they demolish the building, but providing no timeline of when that will happen or promise of if anything will even come out of it means literally nothing if your concern is about downtown vibrancy now and keeping the businesses that are hear now, open, alive and well.
Even if they issued a RFP for complete reuse of the facility today, you'd still be looking at two to three years before renovation would be completed. Since they literally have no plan other than to give a demo contractor a handout, it means for the new few years this site will be as dead as any other morbid location in downtown. By the time something happens, Curry, Hughes and the current bunch will be long gone and on to their next political job and we'll be the ones dealing with the war zone left.
Great post.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 03, 2019, 08:33:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 03, 2019, 01:35:42 PM
Ouch!
QuoteNate Monroe: Politics, not public input, is to blame for Landing stagnation
COMMENTARY | Mayor Lenny Curry has fashioned himself a different kind of Jacksonville chief executive, building over the past few years a creative — albeit flimsy — origin myth about what came before him and how he has since delivered the city from mediocrity.
Curry has indirectly criticized his predecessors — several of whom he sought endorsements from during his re-election, with tepid success — for relying too much on public input, for desiring consensus, for talking issues to death and in the process ultimately doing nothing. That kind of navel gazing, Curry has said publicly time and again, is responsible for so much stagnation. Heck, it's why the Jacksonville Landing has fallen into disrepair.
Ah yes, the Jacksonville Landing, downtown's notorious underachiever and divisive redevelopment puzzle. Taken at face value, Curry's argument about the defunct waterfront mall is appealing. It has indeed languished for years, and now Curry, after spending an enormous sum — $18 million — is on the brink of tearing it down.
The critics — those ninnies who now complain that it's not wise to tear a structure down without a plan to replace it — they would just have us talk the issue into oblivion. But not Curry, Man of Action. The Decider. Savior Curry. Reform Curry. The Quarterback.
This is nonsense, a dangerous myth that would grant a secretive mayor already inclined to bypass public input permission to continue doing it.
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190503/nate-monroe-politics-not-public-input-is-to-blame-for-landing-stagnation
Finally getting around to reading the article. Is it just me, or is Nate Monroe the best thing that ever happened at the Times-Union? i truly appreciate when someone cuts through the spin bullshit and tells the reader what is REALLY going on.
Monroe isn't the best thing that *ever* happened to the FTU. That would be St. Bill Foley. However, he's definitely the best thing to happen to the paper in the last several years.
I think Mayor Curry is actually a closet tree hugger, and he's secretly trying to move everything away from the river to save it when the sea levels inevitably rise from global warming. He's just creating a buffer zone by destroying riverfront properties where he can (i.e.-Courthouse and Landing) and delaying the development of already cleared lots like the shipyards and Met Park. Bold plan, Mr. Mayor, but then again we are the Bold New City of the South.
^^^ However unlikely that is, I would love for it to be true. Curry's playing 4D chess.
The unintended benefit of all of these demos is it will give us a chance to build new sea level rise systems on the waterfront downtown. We will have almost a mile of undeveloped coastline on the northbank that can be built to better withstand storms, flooding, and general climate change. I'd like to see a combination of both natural defenses as well as mechanical.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 07, 2019, 09:35:27 AM
The unintended benefit of all of these demos is it will give us a chance to build new sea level rise systems on the waterfront downtown. We will have almost a mile of undeveloped coastline on the northbank that can be built to better withstand storms, flooding, and general climate change. I'd like to see a combination of both natural defenses as well as mechanical.
Aren't you forgetting that Trump and his acolytes (like Curry) deny that the climate is changing, or the sea level rising?
Sorry, I guess I should clarify that I was joking.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on May 07, 2019, 06:22:57 PM
Sorry, I guess I should clarify that I was joking.
I know you were, but if the city was smart (spoiler alert... they aren't), they would require sea water rise protection measures to be implemented into each new project.
Uggh! We were supposed to be underwater already. It didn't happen. How long are you guys going to cling to this?
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
Uggh! We were supposed to be underwater already. It didn't happen. How long are you guys going to cling to this?
When it's proven that Irma was all an elaborate illusion created by Big Climate.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2019, 09:53:24 AM
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
Uggh! We were supposed to be underwater already. It didn't happen. How long are you guys going to cling to this?
When it's proven that Irma was all an elaborate illusion created by Big Climate.
Come on - you guys have believed in this long before Irma. And Irma was only a big deal because we had record rains for the 5 days leading up to it. If Irma happened 3 days later it would be about a big deal as Matthew was the year before. And hells bells, Irma wasn't even that big a deal. Localized flooding in places that are already flood-prone - big deal.
This reminds me of growing up in California in the 70's and 80's waiting for the BIG ONE. Here it is 50 years later and we are still waiting. Alas, there are still clowns in California waiting for it.
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 10:07:02 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2019, 09:53:24 AM
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
Uggh! We were supposed to be underwater already. It didn't happen. How long are you guys going to cling to this?
When it's proven that Irma was all an elaborate illusion created by Big Climate.
Come on - you guys have believed in this long before Irma. And Irma was only a big deal because we had record rains for the 5 days leading up to it. If Irma happened 3 days later it would be about a big deal as Matthew was the year before. And hells bells, Irma wasn't even that big a deal. Localized flooding in places that are already flood-prone - big deal.
This reminds me of growing up in California in the 70's and 80's waiting for the BIG ONE. Here it is 50 years later and we are still waiting. Alas, there are still clowns in California waiting for it.
Irma cost $50 billion. Matthew cost $10 billion. Both in the US alone. That's not a big deal?
When I was growing up, many claimed that Jacksonville was hurricane proof because direct hits had been rare. Even though we were struck with massive damage by Dora in 1964, it was supposed to be a fluke. People didn't want to believe that we were vulnerable, and some continued believing that right to the point we were clobbered by Matthew and Irma.
Cost $50 billion to whom? Of course things cost more now and that has nothing to do with global warming, or climate change, or a coming ice age. It has to do with inflation, increased cost of compliance, and labor expenses. If we could rebuild something to the code that existed at the time of original construction it would cost a lot less.
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 10:41:36 AM
Cost $50 billion to whom? Of course things cost more now and that has nothing to do with global warming, or climate change, or a coming ice age. It has to do with inflation, increased cost of compliance, and labor expenses. If we could rebuild something to the code that existed at the time of original construction it would cost a lot less.
$50 billion across the board, in the U.S. $267 billion (https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/billions/events/US/2017) between Harvey, Irma, and Maria, again in the U.S. alone.
According to the people who actually study this, hurricanes (http://myweb.fsu.edu/jelsner/PDF/Research/ElsnerKossinJagger2008.pdf) are getting more intense (https://www.climatecentral.org/gallery/graphics/climate-change-and-rapidly-intensifying-hurricanes) due to the increasing ocean heat. That's besides the other problems we're facing due to increasing temperatures and sea level rise.
Hurricanes are much larger these days. It does not take a direct hit to experience substantial rainfall, wind, and storm surges. Combine those factors with higher water levels due to dredging and seal level rise and... you should get the picture.
Even if we're not underwater, the likelihood of more frequent flooding is increasing and should be incorporated in our decision making.
Well, we obviously are just going to have to disagree and believe each other is wrong. However, if you are serious about rebuilding downtown Jacksonville and creating an environment of walkable urbanism you aren't going to do it on the back of global warming, climate change, and environmentalism. You are going to do on it on economics, social benefits, smaller government, and debt-reduction.
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 10:58:36 AM
Well, we obviously are just going to have to disagree and believe each other is wrong. However, if you are serious about rebuilding downtown Jacksonville and creating an environment of walkable urbanism you aren't going to do it on the back of global warming, climate change, and environmentalism. You are going to do on it on economics, social benefits, smaller government, and debt-reduction.
And no resiliency? Good plan.
Kerry - They're not mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 10:41:36 AM
Cost $50 billion to whom? Of course things cost more now and that has nothing to do with global warming, or climate change, or a coming ice age. It has to do with inflation, increased cost of compliance, and labor expenses. If we could rebuild something to the code that existed at the time of original construction it would cost a lot less.
Of course it has to do with inflation. And, that is what has to be paid to rebuild these days. Try calling a contractor and tell him you want your flooded out house rebuilt at 1850 prices. Back then they didn't have much that we have today. When rebuilding after a storm in the 19th century, they didn't have to replace HVAC, insulation, electronics, sophisticated plumbing, electric, or even personal property unknown at that time.
I have a feeling that those who deny that the earth is warming do so because of political and religious reasons. I tend to believe Nobel prize winning scientists over college dropout entertainers like Limbaugh or Hannity. Your points are much like those of the geo centrists of old. Don't believe science, believe those with a theory that can be "proven" by biblical passages. I prefer to believe those who have studied our climates and if anything err on the side of caution. Science has done more good for mankind than beliefs of the uneducated ever has. It hasn't been long since people believed that invisible organisms were a folly, that the universe revolved around the earth, the earth is flat, and that we should burn people for being witches. Thankfully, people learned there were germs, the sun is the center of the universe, not flat, and that scientists usually know more than entertainers. It's all what you WANT to believe.
If this is the group pushing reurbanization in Jax no wonder it is stuck in reverse.
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 01:20:50 PM
If this is the group pushing reurbanization in Jax no wonder it is stuck in reverse.
LOL, we're farther behind on climate resiliency than we are on urban development.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2019, 01:28:46 PM
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 01:20:50 PM
If this is the group pushing reurbanization in Jax no wonder it is stuck in reverse.
LOL, we're farther behind on climate resiliency than we are on urban development.
So let's say your primary fear in life is global warming. On what basis would you oppose a new subdivision in Clay County?
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 01:39:49 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2019, 01:28:46 PM
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 01:20:50 PM
If this is the group pushing reurbanization in Jax no wonder it is stuck in reverse.
LOL, we're farther behind on climate resiliency than we are on urban development.
So let's say your primary fear in life is global warming. On what basis would you oppose a new subdivision in Clay County?
I don't know what you're getting at. Without context I have no clue how or if I'd oppose such a subdivision, or if climate change would be a factor in the decision.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2019, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 01:39:49 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2019, 01:28:46 PM
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 01:20:50 PM
If this is the group pushing reurbanization in Jax no wonder it is stuck in reverse.
LOL, we're farther behind on climate resiliency than we are on urban development.
So let's say your primary fear in life is global warming. On what basis would you oppose a new subdivision in Clay County?
I don't know what you're getting at. Without context I have no clue how or if I'd oppose such a subdivision, or if climate change would be a factor in the decision.
It is pretty easy. You agree that a new subdivision in Clay County leads to global warming right? So would you use global warming as the reason for opposition? Of course, I am just assuming you would oppose a new subdivision. You may not.
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 02:00:05 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2019, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 01:39:49 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2019, 01:28:46 PM
Quote from: Kerry on May 08, 2019, 01:20:50 PM
If this is the group pushing reurbanization in Jax no wonder it is stuck in reverse.
LOL, we're farther behind on climate resiliency than we are on urban development.
So let's say your primary fear in life is global warming. On what basis would you oppose a new subdivision in Clay County?
I don't know what you're getting at. Without context I have no clue how or if I'd oppose such a subdivision, or if climate change would be a factor in the decision.
It is pretty easy. You agree that a new subdivision in Clay County leads to global warming right? So would you use global warming as the reason for opposition? Of course, I am just assuming you would oppose a new subdivision. You may not.
Well, I probably wouldn't worry about opposing one development. It's the pattern that needs to change and axing one development isn't likely to do that. I'd focus more on advocating better design for suburbs; one reason would be to make them less autocentric to reduce emissions, but there are many other reasons to advocate for it as well. It doesn't have to be an either-or proposition.
Don't be short selling seal rise.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cape-cod-looks-for-ways-to-keep-sharks-away-11556789423?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1