The stage is being set for awnings at the stadium. I'm curious as to the possible designs.
Here's a site plan of Lot J via Stephanie Brown at WOKV: https://twitter.com/SBrownReports
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-HLQrHTk/0/ed0f21e7/XL/Lot%20J-XL.jpg)
200 room boutique hotel, 300 apartments, office building and Live! $500 million project. No detailed info on construction time table....
Quote from: thelakelander on April 18, 2019, 11:33:07 AM
200 room boutique hotel, 300 apartments, office building and Live! $500 million project. No detailed info on construction time table....
Somewhere between soon and never...
Quote from: JaxAvondale on April 18, 2019, 11:00:06 AM
The stage is being set for awnings at the stadium. I'm curious as to the possible designs.
I got that too. The past few years they've been priming this pump. But I'm thinking it'll land more like the Hard Rock stadium full renovations in Miami, than a brand new stadium...with public money of course.
Well, at least this plan is more realistic than the plans we saw last year.
Quote from: itsfantastic1 on April 18, 2019, 11:53:42 AM
Quote from: JaxAvondale on April 18, 2019, 11:00:06 AM
The stage is being set for awnings at the stadium. I'm curious as to the possible designs.
I got that too. The past few years they've been priming this pump. But I'm thinking it'll land more like the Hard Rock stadium full renovations in Miami, than a brand new stadium...with public money of course.
I would prefer not to spend public money but this is almost a must at this point.
I'm curious about the designs with the video boards in the endzones.
Quote from: JaxAvondale on April 18, 2019, 11:54:04 AM
Well, at least this plan is more realistic than the plans we saw last year.
It's actually the exact same plan for Lot J that we saw last year.
They just presented a flattened version and implied it was a new site plan.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-HLQrHTk/0/ed0f21e7/XL/Lot%20J-XL.jpg)
(https://snag.gy/XGL7lP.jpg)
(P.S. Changed my password, forgot to write it down, new account it is!)
Quote from: JaxAvondale on April 18, 2019, 11:54:04 AM
Well, at least this plan is more realistic than the plans we saw last year.
Not sure I'd call it "catalytic". 200 hotel units, 300 apartment units, an office building and a retail/entertainment component is essentially what the combination of JEA Headquarters and the Ambassador Hotel/Apartment are for the Northbank. It would also be less than a combination of Hyatt Place, Laura Trio, and VyStar with the re-purposing of the Landing as the anchor retail/entertainment component. In other words, we literally have what's equivalent to Lot J beginning to happen in the heart of the Northbank. What we do with the Landing site can really drive it home, sooner rather than later.....all without cleaning contaminated property and ripping down expressway ramps.
I was basing my "realistic" plan on some of the renderings shown during the presentation that showed mid-rise buildings instead of high rise buildings.
There's no market for high-rises there. There's also no need to go vertical for 200 hotel units and 300 apartments.
According to CBS 47 the ramps will come down after the season and city has the duration of the season to choose a contractor. If I heard correctly.
Nothing new there. They've been hoping that the ramps would come down in 2020. That still assumes no hiccups. I mean just look at how the predictions with the demolition of the old courthouse and the Liberty Street deck over the river have turned out....
QuoteThe reconstruction of Liberty Street and Coastline Drive, removal of the parking deck behind the old courthouse and construction of new sections of the riverwalk is a project that started in late 2016 and was supposed to be done in July 2018.
The city pushed that date back twice, extending the completion date to March 2019 and then again to January 2020 for the $25.9 million project.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190417/more-delays-for-liberty-street-project
I think they said demolition would be completed by 2021, but I am not 100% certain.
"There's no market for high-rises there. There's also no need to go vertical for 200 hotel units and 300 apartments."
Agree 100%. Who the hell wants to live in the middle of a stadium parking lot? Especially when Peter Rummell is supposedly developing an amazing neighborhood across the river.....
Quote from: minder on April 18, 2019, 02:27:06 PM
I think they said demolition would be completed by 2021, but I am not 100% certain.
They hope it will be complete by the end 2021. The original completion date for the Liberty Street project was 2018. Now it's 2020. Again, the dates they give are optimistic and would be a best case scenario without any hiccups or delays and discoveries of unknowns from +100 years of past development. It won't take much for the end of 2021 to turn to 2023. I say this as not coming from a negative perspective but a being a realist about the process and timeline generally associated with these types of roadway projects.
Could a Moderator please split the 2019 discussion into a Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019 thread? There were already 29 pages in the 2018 thread.
Thank you.
Done.
They just proposed the Brooklyn neighborhood. Except Brooklyn has 3X as many apartments and more restaurants and a grocery store, and all combined was way less than $500 million and minimal public subsidy.
Pretty much. After all the press this project has received, those numbers were underwhelming. Will be cool to have development there, but what's proposed isn't going to do anything more for DT than what Brooklyn already does today. It's far enough removed to be a world of its own for at least another generation.
Quote from: Kerry on April 18, 2019, 03:40:17 PM
They just proposed the Brooklyn neighborhood. Except Brooklyn has 3X as many apartments and more restaurants and a grocery store, and all combined was way less than $500 million and minimal public subsidy.
And by 'minimal' you are of course counting a $150 million highway interchange, a $150 million bridge replacement, $35 million in roadway and drainage improvements, $12.5 million for the Fidelity headquarters relocation, more than $10 million in public money spent between the construction of Unity Plaza and the Northbank Riverwalk extension and another $30 million in property tax breaks for buildings like 220 Riverside, Brooklyn Riverside, Brooklyn Station on Riverside, Raymond James Building and TIAA Bank Building? You also are of course counting the $4 million to build the Northbank Riverwalk Artist Square (home to the Riverside Arts Market) and later the additional $400k to build a floating dock for RAM?
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/)
All those road expenses you listed weren't for the benefit of Brooklyn residents. Those were so suburbanites could get home 2 minutes faster. If you want to throw in all office development in Brooklyn and then compare that to Khanville have at it because again Brooklyn blows it away.
Btw - have you seen the development in downtown Tampa being done by the owner of the Lightning. $3.2 billion dollars privately funded.
18 towers, 3500 residential units, 2 hotels, 1,000,000 sq ft of retail, 2,000,000 sq ft of office space and 13 acres of park.
www.waterstreettampa.com
Interesting that they compared Lot J to Ballpark village in St. Louis, and included a "rendering". https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-moving-forward-with-dollar500-million-plan-for-lot-j (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-moving-forward-with-dollar500-million-plan-for-lot-j)
Ballpark village broke ground 5 years ago, and the St. Louis Cardinals president was quoted as saying: "It's kind of like watching water boil," he said, laughing. "You know it's going to happen, but it's too slow."
Ballpark Village is two blocks from City Garden and the downtown core. Not a mile away. How Jax sells comparisons of things in other cities is totally taken out of context.....which ultimately sets the public up for massive disappointment.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 18, 2019, 05:50:05 PM
Ballpark Village is two blocks from City Garden and the downtown core. Not a mile away. How Jax sells comparisons of things in other cities is totally taken out of context.....which ultimately sets the public up for massive disappointment.
Just once I would like the Jags to be honest. It must suck to be in constant spin mode.
^Compared to other NFL franchises, I think the Jags are reasonably transparent.
If you watched State of the Franchise, Lamping never said that Lot J was apples-to-apples to Ballpark Village or the Power & Light District in terms of surrounding uses or proximity to the CBD. He simply said (I'm paraphrasing here), "we haven't completed designs yet, here's what it could look like based on office and residential uses at other Cordish developments."
I don't think there was anything at all super manipulative today.
The Jags directly stated, "we want to pad our local revenue by adding complimenting uses near the stadium."
For the Jags, it's a sound strategy that's being repeated all over the country by professional sports franchises, and Cordish is a good partner with a good track record.
For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event.
It's a lost opportunity for the Jags, a pain point for event attendees, and to Lamping's point, no one else is exactly doing anything in the last couple of years to serve that captive audience.
And in a vehicle centric city like Jacksonville without an urban circulator extending to the sports complex, if we're going to say that a Lot J development is too far away from the CBD to contribute toward a vibrant urban core, I think it's also fair to say in turn that the central core is too far from the sports complex to be the primary pregame and postgame spot. People aren't going to park twice or walk three miles round trip to grab a drink at Volstead after a Suns game.
Lamping's correct when he says that Lot J will add jobs, residents, and revenue to downtown Jacksonville, even if the impact on the true urban core is probably negligent.
And in a vacuum, even though I'd prefer it at the Courthouse site, I think a Live! venue would be a really fun, really useful addition to the sports complex.
I've got zero problem with the Jags for pushing for a project that's in their best interests, even if the barbell theory and residual effects to the west are overstated.
At the end of the day, if there's a good guy or a bad guy here, it's going to be the mayor and City Council who have been elected to control the pursestrings and act in the best interests of the city.
We can't have everything, and Lot J will come with a very real opportunity cost.
It's the city's ultimate responsibility to make the choices that best align with of our ultimate goals (which is why a master plan would be nice), and to be transparent with the public about what led to those decisions.
I might be in the minority here, but Lamping impressed me today. He praised the city for making it a very successful year for the Jags. He presented hard evidence that Daily's Place is bringing new people and new revenue ($26 million) to the sports complex. There were zero threats about relocation or London, and Khan and Lamping openly expressed a desire to make a lease extension possible through cost-effective improvements to the stadium rather than a full replacement. And Lamping was even very honest about how adding JEA at Lot J would have ultimately been a zero-sum game that wouldn't really benefit downtown.
They're shrewd businessmen who are perfectly willing to play the subsidy game, but compared to what else is out there, I kind of appreciate them.
Doesn't mean handing them a convention center or over-subsidizing their residential developments is the right move, but that will ultimately be on our elected officials for caving, not the Jags for asking.
I wasn't impressed but I have realized that Lot J is small enough where it doesn't have to compete or take away from the core. We're not talking Brickell City Centre here. We're looking at a 200 unit hotel, 300 apartments, a Live! and an office building. As long as the office tenant isn't already downtown, it complements. The larger issue is COJ, having no master plan and our tendency to view single developments as game changers. Lot J isn't a gamechanger anymore than the Trio/Barnett, VyStar, Hyatt and the redevelopment of Landing can be. Jax just needs to learn how to walk and chew gum at the same time. A downtown master plan would help because everyone would then be able to look at things from a holistic perspective.
Lot J isnt anywhere near a gamechanger for downtown. What's (relatively) quietly happeneing along Laura between the river and Hemming is though.
QuoteAll those road expenses you listed weren't for the benefit of Brooklyn residents. Those were so suburbanites could get home 2 minutes faster. If you want to throw in all office development in Brooklyn and then compare that to Khanville have at it because again Brooklyn blows it away.
Having actually lived here during that time, I can assure you point blank that all of that infrastructure work was done to drive development. Some of that work was shortsighted (razing buildings and making Forrest and Riverside into an essentially six-lane highways) and some of that has worked out well (the interchange is what is making retail in Brooklyn work and the Fidelity relocation has been a grand slam for Jacksonville). All of that is noted in the article I posted.
My point is, the world isn't black and white. Brooklyn's office development during the early 2000's, and the two apartment buildings that rose up in the mid 2010's all had significant incentives (either direct or indirect). Any comparison that ignores the hundreds of millions of public money poured into Brooklyn over almost three decades, is like calling a painting of stick figures the Mona Lisa.
QuoteBtw - have you seen the development in downtown Tampa being done by the owner of the Lightning. $3.2 billion dollars privately funded.
18 towers, 3500 residential units, 2 hotels, 1,000,000 sq ft of retail, 2,000,000 sq ft of office space and 13 acres of park
I am intimately familiar with that project.
You are also leaving out the fact that Water Street is receiving $100 million in TIF monies, another $30 million in roadwork paid by the City of Tampa and the City got a TIGER grant a few years ago to extend the Tampa Riverwalk essentially up to Water Street. And even in an environment where office space vacancy is lower in Tampa than what it is in Jacksonville, they have also struggled to attract a corporate headquarters to anchor that development (Mosaic, a F500 company, chose Midtown Tampa over Water Street Tampa. MidTown Tampa has taken almost three decades to break ground, at one point it was being pitched as the site of a new stadium for the Rays). The big difference between that development, and anything happening around TIAA Bank Field... is that because the office vacancy rate is so low in Tampa, Cascades et al have a little more incentive to build the first two office buildings on more of a spec basis and incrementally backfill them with smaller tenants. It also helps that USF is opening a downtown presence at Water Street Tampa... that's not exactly 'privately-funded' tenant relocation either.
Juxtapose that with The District. The District is a CDD, which means the infrastructure necessary to support the development will be bonded out and paid back via CDD fees from future PAD site owners. Why a CDD instead of tapping into the Southbank TIF? Because the remaining positive cash flow from the Southbank TIF was used to build the Riverplace Road Diet. Until a few years ago, the Northbank TIF was in the red. There simply wasn't enough cash being generated from either of the Downtown CRAs to structure The District's deal in the same manner as that of Water Street.
QuoteAt the end of the day, if there's a good guy or a bad guy here, it's going to be the mayor and City Council who have been elected to control the pursestrings and act in the best interests of the city.
We can't have everything, and Lot J will come with a very real opportunity cost.
It's the city's ultimate responsibility to make the choices that best align with of our ultimate goals (which is why a master plan would be nice), and to be transparent with the public about what led to those decisions.
QuoteThey're shrewd businessmen who are perfectly willing to play the subsidy game, but compared to what else is out there, I kind of appreciate them.
Doesn't mean handing them a convention center or over-subsidizing their residential developments is the right move, but that will ultimately be on our elected officials for caving, not the Jags for asking.
Very much agree with these points.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 18, 2019, 09:44:29 PM
^Compared to other NFL franchises, I think the Jags are reasonably transparent.
If you watched State of the Franchise, Lamping never said that Lot J was apples-to-apples to Ballpark Village or the Power & Light District in terms of surrounding uses or proximity to the CBD. He simply said (I'm paraphrasing here), "we haven't completed designs yet, here's what it could look like based on office and residential uses at other Cordish developments."
I don't think there was anything at all super manipulative today.
The Jags directly stated, "we want to pad our local revenue by adding complimenting uses near the stadium."
For the Jags, it's a sound strategy that's being repeated all over the country by professional sports franchises, and Cordish is a good partner with a good track record.
For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event.
It's a lost opportunity for the Jags, a pain point for event attendees, and to Lamping's point, no one else is exactly doing anything in the last couple of years to serve that captive audience.
And in a vehicle centric city like Jacksonville without an urban circulator extending to the sports complex, if we're going to say that a Lot J development is too far away from the CBD to contribute toward a vibrant urban core, I think it's also fair to say in turn that the central core is too far from the sports complex to be the primary pregame and postgame spot. People aren't going to park twice or walk three miles round trip to grab a drink at Volstead after a Suns game.
Lamping's correct when he says that Lot J will add jobs, residents, and revenue to downtown Jacksonville, even if the impact on the true urban core is probably negligent.
And in a vacuum, even though I'd prefer it at the Courthouse site, I think a Live! venue would be a really fun, really useful addition to the sports complex.
I've got zero problem with the Jags for pushing for a project that's in their best interests, even if the barbell theory and residual effects to the west are overstated.
At the end of the day, if there's a good guy or a bad guy here, it's going to be the mayor and City Council who have been elected to control the pursestrings and act in the best interests of the city.
We can't have everything, and Lot J will come with a very real opportunity cost.
It's the city's ultimate responsibility to make the choices that best align with of our ultimate goals (which is why a master plan would be nice), and to be transparent with the public about what led to those decisions.
I might be in the minority here, but Lamping impressed me today. He praised the city for making it a very successful year for the Jags. He presented hard evidence that Daily's Place is bringing new people and new revenue ($26 million) to the sports complex. There were zero threats about relocation or London, and Khan and Lamping openly expressed a desire to make a lease extension possible through cost-effective improvements to the stadium rather than a full replacement. And Lamping was even very honest about how adding JEA at Lot J would have ultimately been a zero-sum game that wouldn't really benefit downtown.
They're shrewd businessmen who are perfectly willing to play the subsidy game, but compared to what else is out there, I kind of appreciate them.
Doesn't mean handing them a convention center or over-subsidizing their residential developments is the right move, but that will ultimately be on our elected officials for caving, not the Jags for asking.
Well said.
I'm still not sure I think they "get it" in terms of development and how well it will spill out and generate other development, but hey, don't blame them for asking.
In addition, I thought their stadium renovation timeline discussion was actually realistic - start the discussion during Curry's admin (4 years) then develop after that.
I know there is another thread for this subject but, what is the deal with the Doro district? I haven't heard any progress in a while. Are they waiting to hear if Lot J is going to happen. Or is their development or lack there of, completely separate from the jaguars grand plans.
From Ken:
"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."
Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.
Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
I doubt it would be successful without the traffic expressway removal would provide. Right now, there's not enough consistent activity there for anything to be open seven days and nights a week. If so, they would have broke ground on it years ago.
Quote from: jaxjags on April 19, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
From Ken:
"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."
Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.
Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?
Quote from: jaxjags on April 19, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
Where's the irony? I don't get it.
Quote from: Kerry on April 19, 2019, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: jaxjags on April 19, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
From Ken:
"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."
Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.
Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?
I think I get your point and I agree. Many would argue that supply follows demand - if there were sufficient demand, someone would have tapped into it. If there's nothing there, it would seem that no one is willing to take the risk based on the conditions. Some wealthy white knight coming in and building something (with taxpayer money to boot) isn't a guarantee of success.
Quote from: Kerry on April 19, 2019, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: jaxjags on April 19, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
From Ken:
"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."
Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.
Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?
Teams have realised they can make more money than simply just on gameday. Ballpark Village, Titletown, Arlington Texas, the Battery are recent examples of that.
Quote from: Kerry on April 19, 2019, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: jaxjags on April 19, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
From Ken:
"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."
Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.
Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?
Like Intuition?
Or are you talking about building from scratch? I'd say the reason there is government controlled land....like all of it.
Quote from: Kerry on April 19, 2019, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: jaxjags on April 19, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
From Ken:
"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."
Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.
Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?
The baseball grounds, arena, amphitheater, and Intuition are all less than 20 years old.
It's pretty obvious the Live! and hotel components of their plan would struggle without more traffic in the area. Hence, the expressway removal plan. Direct access and visibility to daily through traffic that has nothing to do with special events is needed to support these businesses on none event days.
Quote from: Kerry on April 19, 2019, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: jaxjags on April 19, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
From Ken:
"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."
Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.
Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?
Tell me where. Most of the land in the area is owned by the city. So where. Lot J is owned by the city.
Quote from: Kerry on April 19, 2019, 10:03:25 PM
Quote from: jaxjags on April 19, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
From Ken:
"For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.
There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event."
Ken makes a good point here. I believe Jax Live! would be very successful just on its own, as there are plenty of events at the complex year round.
Take last night. Hockey and baseball. Maybe 8-10,000 people. No place to eat! I ate at Burrito Gallery, ironically in Brooklyn - the other end of the barbell.
So why do you think nothing has been built in the stadium complex after 20 years?
1) The sports complex of 2019 is very, very different than the sports complex of 1999. New arena, new baseball stadium, new ampitheater, tons of stadium renovations, more programming, better tenants.
2) Jacksonville has grown leaps and bounds in terms of population and buying power in the last 20 years.
3) Just like festiival marketplaces were all the rage 30 years ago, the stadium adjacent entertainment-complex-in-a-box didn't really become a thing until the early 2010s when Ballpark Village proved successful and Cordish started replicating it in places like Philadelphia and Arlington.
4) No one before Shad Khan has had the economic and political swing to suggest a $500 million publicly-subsidized development, with a 3,000 spot parking garage, on city-owned land next to the stadium.
QuoteIt's pretty obvious the Live! and hotel components of their plan would struggle without more traffic in the area. Hence, the expressway removal plan. Direct access and visibility to daily through traffic that has nothing to do with special events is needed to support these businesses on none event days.
The frustrating thing to me is that we've essentially got a central business district that is vibrant and lively during the day, and a ghost town at night. And we've got a sports complex that is essentially a ghost town during the day, and vibrant and lively at night. It feels like if we took this Lot J development and shifted the entire thing somewhere in the middle (to the Courthouse site or western Shipyards adjacent to Berkman II), it would be close enough to both to have positive externalities on the CBD and the sports complex. It's walkable for both the downtown lunch crowd or the evening events crowd, and instead of essentially having to subsidize the creation of a new residential and office daytime market at the sports complex to support it (with corresponding parking infrastructure), you're taking advantage of the the one that's already built-in.
Plus you're riverfront, instead of asphalt-front.
^^ This is Jacksonville.. Logic need not apply.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 23, 2019, 11:14:52 AM
1) The sports complex of 2019 is very, very different than the sports complex of 1999. New arena, new baseball stadium, new ampitheater, tons of stadium renovations, more programming, better tenants.
2) Jacksonville has grown leaps and bounds in terms of population and buying power in the last 20 years.
3) Just like festiival marketplaces were all the rage 30 years ago, the stadium adjacent entertainment-complex-in-a-box didn't really become a thing until the early 2010s when Ballpark Village proved successful and Cordish started replicating it in places like Philadelphia and Arlington.
4) No one before Shad Khan has had the economic and political swing to suggest a $500 million publicly-subsidized development, with a 3,000 spot parking garage, on city-owned land next to the stadium.
When I first arrived in Jax back in 2003, I thought the placement of the arena and baseball grounds were missed opportunities. By that time, several cities had used new arenas and ballparks in locations closer to their CBD cores and walkable areas with older buildings and storefronts as a way to anchor revitalization efforts. Baltimore, Memphis, Cleveland, Detroit, etc. all come to mind. It was even taking place in cities like Montgomery and Grand Rapids. For whatever reason, we not only missed that 1990s boat, we also razed half the buildings like what IAW is in now that could have been used for restaurants, clubs, etc.
QuoteQuoteIt's pretty obvious the Live! and hotel components of their plan would struggle without more traffic in the area. Hence, the expressway removal plan. Direct access and visibility to daily through traffic that has nothing to do with special events is needed to support these businesses on none event days.
The frustrating thing to me is that we've essentially got a central business district that is vibrant and lively during the day, and a ghost town at night. And we've got a sports complex that is essentially a ghost town during the day, and vibrant and lively at night. It feels like if we took this Lot J development and shifted the entire thing somewhere in the middle (to the Courthouse site or western Shipyards adjacent to Berkman II), it would be close enough to both to have positive externalities on the CBD and the sports complex. It's walkable for both the downtown lunch crowd or the evening events crowd, and instead of essentially having to subsidize the creation of a new residential and office daytime market at the sports complex to support it (with corresponding parking infrastructure), you're taking advantage of the the one that's already built-in.
Plus you're riverfront, instead of asphalt-front.
Not much we could have done with stadium placement but we did have an opportunity with the other facilities. However, none of that would eliminated the Jags from wanting to make money around the stadium. With that said, this Lot J thing isn't as big as I initially thought. There should be room for it to co-exist with downtown. We just need leaders that under urban planning, placemaking and the concept of clustering complementing development within a compact pedestrian centric setting.
It seems to me, the problem with the stadium district isn't the distance so much as its completely separated from downtown. That whole area from the jail to maxwell house is a dead zone. If they took all the ramps down and cleaned up hogans creek and redevelop/energize that area, the stadium district would feel like its part of downtown.
If they are going to take down the ramps, they should take them all the way down and make a bar/restaurant district around hogans creek. Tie the stadium district to downtown. Also move the jail and JSO.
^^ +1000
Totally agree with Lostwave. If you are going to tear down the ramps then tear them all down. It is really a half assed job as planned. Doing the part in front of the shipyards but then totally turning a blind eye to the other end of the ramps. They will probably be taken down 20 years from now anyway. This is just one more example of how a master plan for downtown needs to be implemented. Spending money on the ramps now and also starting plans for the emerald trail at the same time. And yet these two project literally overlap but aren't being planned for together.
^Agree in principal, but if you spend an additional $12 to $20 million finishing the job on the ramps, you might not have enough money left in the coffers to buy out stripmall barons and spitefully demolish their riverfront malls.
Quote from: Lostwave on April 24, 2019, 10:09:24 AM
It seems to me, the problem with the stadium district isn't the distance so much as its completely separated from downtown. That whole area from the jail to maxwell house is a dead zone. If they took all the ramps down and cleaned up hogans creek and redevelop/energize that area, the stadium district would feel like its part of downtown.
If they are going to take down the ramps, they should take them all the way down and make a bar/restaurant district around hogans creek. Tie the stadium district to downtown. Also move the jail and JSO.
At the end of the day, it's over a mile away from the heart of the Northbank. Buildings or not, it will take a good generation or two to fill in with development and adaptive reuse to make them cohesive at the pedestrian scale.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 24, 2019, 10:05:57 PM
^Agree in principal, but if you spend an additional $12 to $20 million finishing the job on the ramps, you might not have enough money left in the coffers to buy out stripmall barons and spitefully demolish their riverfront malls.
Nailed it!
Probably the most detail we've heard yet on the proposed development agreement:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/whats-next-for-lot-j-the-jaguars-dollar500-million-development-proposal
Quote from: thelakelander on April 25, 2019, 12:16:11 AM
At the end of the day, it's over a mile away from the heart of the Northbank. Buildings or not, it will take a good generation or two to fill in with development and adaptive reuse to make them cohesive at the pedestrian scale.
I agree that its over a mile away. In Seattle the two main nightlife areas are Pioneer Square and Belltown. They are up to 2 miles apart depending on where in the district you are. Pioneer Square is just north of the stadium district. In my youth we often went to both districts in the same night. The distance isn't that big of a deal if you are bar hopping or whatever. Its a HUGE deal if there isn't an engaging walk between them... its an even bigger deal if its sketchy, dark and empty between them.
I am just stating that if we could lost all the ramps and fill in that area with an engaging nightlife (I know we need residential first) it would make it much more vibrant and make the distance matter less and less.
Oh I agree. When there's life, a mile is nothing (excluding Florida's weather related issues of course). Just acknowledging that given the state of current conditions east of Liberty Street, the process (if done right) would likely take +15 to 20 years.