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Through Thursday, April 4, Duval County Public Schools (DCPS) is seeking public input on a proposed $1.95 billion facilities master plan that calls for building new schools and closing - and potentially demolishing - several older ones. What should the school board do with its schools?
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/
There were some posts on this topic over in the Downtown Development thread. Could some kindly Admin move those over here?
It'll probably easiest just to link to it:
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35438.0.html
*sigh*
Update from Dr. Green:
While the bulk of the proposed plan received minimal commentary, several of the school-by-school scenarios drew comments that require further community engagement.
We will work to find solutions that can meet the needs of future students and address current community feedback. The scenarios that remain under discussion include:
· J. Allen Axson/Chets Creek Elementary schools
· Venetia/Ortega Elementary schools
· Ribault High School/Ribault Middle School
· Raines High School/Northwestern Middle School
· Jefferson Davis Middle School
We will continue the conversation on these scenarios in various ways. In some of these instances, I will hold more dialog in the school community to better understand concerns. In others, we will conduct additional surveys to evaluate potential alternatives.
We have already made some changes to the master plan based on this round of surveys:
· We will preserve the historic architecture of Kirby-Smith Middle and Loretto Elementary in the replacement process, and
· We will meet the need for a middle school in fast developing southeastern Duval by making the proposed new K-5 into a K-8.
Hmm. Good for Springfield. Not so good for minority neighborhoods that don't have a great voice. For example, the historic architecture of Matthew Gilbert is just as much as important to preserve and reuse as Kirby-Smith and Loretto. The same could be said of Annie Morgan.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 09, 2019, 01:34:20 PM
Hmm. Good for Springfield. Not so good for minority neighborhoods that don't have a great voice. For example, the historic architecture of Matthew Gilbert is just as much as important to preserve and reuse as Kirby-Smith and Loretto. The same could be said of Annie Morgan.
Agreed. Gilbert is certainly the equal to Kirby Smith. It's interesting, if not surprising, that folks seemed to rally around Kirby Smith but not Gilbert. I wonder if there's still time to change that.
They're planning to demo Raines and Ribault? How is that possible? Those are two of the largest schools in town serving the same neighborhood. Where will those kids go?
Quote from: Tacachale on April 09, 2019, 01:50:56 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 09, 2019, 01:34:20 PM
Hmm. Good for Springfield. Not so good for minority neighborhoods that don't have a great voice. For example, the historic architecture of Matthew Gilbert is just as much as important to preserve and reuse as Kirby-Smith and Loretto. The same could be said of Annie Morgan.
Agreed. Gilbert is certainly the equal to Kirby Smith. It's interesting, if not surprising, that folks seemed to rally around Kirby Smith but not Gilbert. I wonder if there's still time to change that.
Gilbert is in the Eastside. Kirby-Smith is in Springfield. My guess is Springfield is more organized, leading to more people responding to the survey due to Kirby-Smith being in it. There's time since they don't have the money to do half of this. Sounds like we need an article at a minimum to spread the word.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 09, 2019, 01:55:19 PM
They're planning to demo Raines and Ribault? How is that possible? Those are two of the largest schools in town serving the same neighborhood. Where will those kids go?
Demo of the existing and rebuilding 100% new. Quite a few schools on the demo list in NW Jax are mid-century. Structurally, I seriously doubt all that concrete is beyond repair.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 09, 2019, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 09, 2019, 01:55:19 PM
They're planning to demo Raines and Ribault? How is that possible? Those are two of the largest schools in town serving the same neighborhood. Where will those kids go?
Demo of the existing and rebuilding 100% new. Quite a few schools on the demo list in NW Jax are mid-century. Structurally, I seriously doubt all that concrete is beyond repair.
Especially if schools built at the same time like Fletcher are doing ok.
Just highlighting my quote from the previous linked thread.
Quote from: itsfantastic1 on March 30, 2019, 07:21:31 PM
So I went to my local District 7 master plan forum and specifically asked the gentlemen giving the presentation about historic buildings listed as demolished (including Loretto elementary). He and his company are aware citizens are up in arms that the term demolished is being used, however they did it for two reasons. First; they make the assumption that a full demolition and rebuild of a school would be the most expensive option compared to re-purposing a structure (with they say only accounts for 10% of overall costs). This was to present a worst case scenario for the funding aspect that the district is trying to secure.
Second, once funding is identified; each school will get an individually tailored construction plan that will involve more local community input on what should be done if identified as a major renovation or demo/rebuild. They fully admit they haven't thought of what each school's plan involves short of what the FCI values says should happen with the school. Also, they have not prioritized any one school over another due to funding not being secured yet.
Interestingly, I asked if all funding needed was secured; were we looking at carbon copy of concrete pod-type buildings everywhere and they said no; they are currently not planning on saving money by value engineering a prototype that fits all schools.
^The quicker they can go from deciding major renovation vs demo/rebuild, the better. For example, it appears Kirby Smith and Loretto are off the demo/rebuild list already, despite no funding being identified.
That would appear to suggest that they got a large amount of feedback from those community surveys that said those schools/areas won't even consider demolish, which will feed into the cost estimates. I believe that was the point of the community feedback period.
Also, I still think it comes back to the assumption they made for funding that a demo/rebuild is the costliest option; so schools that got identified by their FCI formula as "replacement candidate" got the demo/rebuild tag so there wouldn't be cost overruns with the job. Especially with a county as tax-adverse as Duval when compared to the other Big 6.
Speaking with Co-op Strategies (not the district), they didn't really seem to have a preference towards demo or conserve; they are just trying to estimate costs of the whole plan as conservatively as they could. I think, as many on this thread are doing; it's on the local community to decide what is worth saving and make it known to the board.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on April 09, 2019, 01:16:41 PM
Update from Dr. Green:
While the bulk of the proposed plan received minimal commentary, several of the school-by-school scenarios drew comments that require further community engagement.
We will work to find solutions that can meet the needs of future students and address current community feedback. The scenarios that remain under discussion include:
· J. Allen Axson/Chets Creek Elementary schools
· Venetia/Ortega Elementary schools
· Ribault High School/Ribault Middle School
· Raines High School/Northwestern Middle School
· Jefferson Davis Middle School
We will continue the conversation on these scenarios in various ways. In some of these instances, I will hold more dialog in the school community to better understand concerns. In others, we will conduct additional surveys to evaluate potential alternatives.
We have already made some changes to the master plan based on this round of surveys:
· We will preserve the historic architecture of Kirby-Smith Middle and Loretto Elementary in the replacement process, and
· We will meet the need for a middle school in fast developing southeastern Duval by making the proposed new K-5 into a K-8.
Do you have a link to her statement?
Quote from: itsfantastic1 on April 09, 2019, 03:09:49 PM
That would appear to suggest that they got a large amount of feedback from those community surveys that said those schools/areas won't even consider demolish, which will feed into the cost estimates. I believe that was the point of the community feedback period.
Of course. Except online surveys aren't necessarily an effective form of outreach for underrepresented communities. Just recently led a public engagement project for a poor rural community about a hour outside of Houston. Most people didn't have the things we tend to take for granted like cell phones with unlimited data plans, computers, web access, etc.
Quote from: Westside Guy on April 09, 2019, 03:33:07 PM
Do you have a link to her statement?
No, was in an email. Here it is:
Dear Team Duval,
We asked for your feedback, and you delivered. With almost 8,800 video views and more than 1,600 survey comments, we received clear input on our master facility plan to provide all of our students and staff with outstanding instructional environments.
New or significantly improved school environments are vital for enhancing student learning and school culture. State of the art schools also improve economic development and property values. Our district's school buildings are the oldest in the state, and with declining maintenance and renovation funds, we need to take bold steps on behalf of our students.
While the bulk of the proposed plan received minimal commentary, several of the school-by-school scenarios drew comments that require further community engagement.
We will work to find solutions that can meet the needs of future students and address current community feedback. The scenarios that remain under discussion include:
· J. Allen Axson/Chets Creek Elementary schools
· Venetia/Ortega Elementary schools
· Ribault High School/Ribault Middle School
· Raines High School/Northwestern Middle School
· Jefferson Davis Middle School
We will continue the conversation on these scenarios in various ways. In some of these instances, I will hold more dialog in the school community to better understand concerns. In others, we will conduct additional surveys to evaluate potential alternatives.
We have already made some changes to the master plan based on this round of surveys:
· We will preserve the historic architecture of Kirby-Smith Middle and Loretto Elementary in the replacement process, and
· We will meet the need for a middle school in fast developing southeastern Duval by making the proposed new K-5 into a K-8.
I want to extend my thanks to all who have participated in this process. While we need to be dynamic in meeting the needs of our students, the best plan can only be achieved by considering all perspectives. I will keep you informed as the process unfolds, and I encourage you to stay engaged throughout the process.
Kind regards,
Diana Greene
Superintendent
Duval County Public Schools
What tax bucket does the funding for the school board come from? Would these come from that budget or a separate capital improvement pool? Is that why they are proposing demolish/rebuild, so that they can pull from capital funds not their own operating budget?
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 10, 2019, 09:37:35 AM
What tax bucket does the funding for the school board come from? Would these come from that budget or a separate capital improvement pool? Is that why they are proposing demolish/rebuild, so that they can pull from capital funds not their own operating budget?
Property taxes. They have taxing authority that they can levy up to a certain amount. Likewise, there are taxes that flow up to the state and back to the district. A majority of all property taxes go to the schools.
For this, they would be looking for an increased mill on top of that or a half cent sales tax, or both.
I believe they said increasing the millage the amount they think they can "get approved" would result in about $900 million over the 10 years, which doesn't quite cover it all. This seems to imply they are looking at multiple revenue streams; some of which are taxes (sales), others which may be service fee based or even increasing CDD fees for newer developments that drive the need for newer school.
So we'll see...
What is the experience with schools with grades 6 through 12 in urban areas? Parents are going to have serious concerns about having 11 year olds in the same building as 18 year olds. Does the consultant's report cover those concerns? Or is it just about the physical plants?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 12, 2019, 09:05:03 PM
What is the experience with schools with grades 6 through 12 in urban areas? Parents are going to have serious concerns about having 11 year olds in the same building as 18 year olds. Does the consultant's report cover those concerns? Or is it just about the physical plants?
Probably depends on the physical structure and how it's done. Episcopal is one of the most expensive private schools in Jacksonville, yet has 7-12. Bolles on the other hand has K-5 and 9-12 on their main campus (though completely separated I believe), and 6-8 at a different campus.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 12, 2019, 09:05:03 PM
What is the experience with schools with grades 6 through 12 in urban areas? Parents are going to have serious concerns about having 11 year olds in the same building as 18 year olds. Does the consultant's report cover those concerns? Or is it just about the physical plants?
Darnell Cookman has been a combined middle & highschool for quite a few years now, and its consistently highly rated/desirable.
I went to a school (private) that was 6-12 and the middle and high school were pretty segregated. There wasn't much interaction if any between the students. Different lunch times, break, buildings, etc. They even switched classes at a different time if I remeber correctly.
Yeah, but does anyone have confidence that DCPS can pull off what competitive private schools, and a competitive magnet school, are doing? Would there be separate administrations for the Middle and High Schools on the same campus? Why not set them up as separate schools on the same campus? There are a few examples in Duval County of different level schools having adjacent campuses. Some have public roads between them (Paxson High and James Weldon Johnson Middle - both academic magnets, and Biltmore Elementary; and Terry Parker High, Arlington Middle, and Parkwood Elementary. One of the targets in the consultant report, Ribault High, Ribault Middle, and Sallye Mathis Elementary, share a large "campus" with no public roads crossing through. If this is the model they are considering, it would be less concerning than "11 year olds with 18 year olds" fears reported on TV.
My main question is what happens economically to the neighborhoods that lose their elementary and middle school?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 15, 2019, 02:20:35 PM
One of the targets in the consultant report, Ribault High, Ribault Middle, and Sallye Mathis Elementary, share a large "campus" with no public roads crossing through. If this is the model they are considering, it would be less concerning than "11 year olds with 18 year olds" fears reported on TV.
Ribault is one of the two schools they are talking about consolidating into 6-12. DCPS has more space than students. Part of this consolidation thing is to reduce the amount of square footage and capacity they have.
Looks like it's out that a sales tax increase is the prefered way. What's interesting is that it appears the school district is quite hampered to get money from various funding sources.
"We've utilized every opportunity for other ways of getting additional revenue such as bonding."
"The district has two funding options to take to voters: approve a half-cent sales tax or raise the district's property tax rate. However, the board hasn't considered a property tax increase because that revenue can only be used for operating expenses."
Interesting that a property tax hike can only be used for operating expenses, but I think that needs to be discussed as well otherwise we'll end up with another $1B backlog in 20 years.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190423/duval-voters-to-decide-on-proposed-sales-tax-referendum-to-pay-for-replacing-repairing-renovating-schools (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190423/duval-voters-to-decide-on-proposed-sales-tax-referendum-to-pay-for-replacing-repairing-renovating-schools)
As someone noted elsewhere -
As there is no election scheduled in November 2019, how much will this Special Election cost?
What kind of turn-out can be expected?
Does this give DCPS time to educate voters on the needs?
... and to overcome the opposition based on combining certain Middle and High Schools into 6-12 schools?
Teachers and staff are underpaid, and routine maintenance has a huge backlog (hence, some of the replacement needs); will DCPS consider a millage increase to address these needs?
+1000 This tax is destined to be turned down by voters without:
1. A complete and comprehensive plan that includes long term maintenance and teacher compensation.
2. Proper presentation of the plan to voters
3. Time to educate voters of the needs and solutions.
Hopefully they plan to do this, but November will be here quick.