Great article by Folio Weekly. The short unfortunate response to it is that Downtown Jax is screwed if the current redevelopment strategies continue. History will repeat itself, we'll spend millions to destroy the struggling existing businesses we already have and eventually end up looking at more scorched earth for another generation.
QuoteStory by SCOTT GAILLARD
Never before has so much been spent to accomplish so little for so few.
The city is about to blow more than $60 million to create nothing. The concert venue at Metropolitan Park has already been dismantled and the City Hall Annex was imploded for nearly $5 million. Next up is the demolition of the former Duval County Courthouse on Bay Street for $3 million, then more than $37 million to remove a ramp to the Hart Bridge. Another $18 million is designated for eliminating The Jacksonville Landing.
Development by wrecking ball is the new motif. Of course, the hope is that new development will replace the existing facilities and—hope upon hope—that these new facilities will prove more successful than what they replaced.
It's a risky proposition under any circumstance, but now is an especially interesting time in the economic cycle to undertake scorched-earth tactics.
Interest rates were increased seven times in the last two years, as corporate, government and personal debts have reached historic highs. Nonetheless, the hope (there's that word again) is that Jaguars owner Shad Khan will come through with new developments—once he lands millions in taxpayer subsidies, of course.
Jacksonville has been down this road before and has the scars to prove it. As the hopes of the city are being placed in Shad Khan now, its fate was was all but entrusted to Cameron Kuhn a little more than a decade ago.
Full article: http://folioweekly.com/stories/the-big-boom,21236
This is a great piece. We've been living in the age of dynamite for so long I never really thought about how much had happened in just the last year or two. It's very sobering.
I don't get what's great about it. Doom and gloom in every aspect. The consensus on this board has always been (correct me if I'm wong) that the ramps needed to go. The Landing is dead. Nobody stepped up to repurpose the asbestos filled courthouse and annex. Berkman is slated for development. And interest rates are hardly high now, and most observers think they will stay the same or even go lower in the near future.
The alternative suggested by this writer is what, exactly? Don't touch the Landing? Keep the ramps? Ignore empty buildings (courthouse, annex)? Erect another tent at Metro Park? And by all means, don't entice Khan to develop?
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 18, 2019, 01:24:43 PM
I don't get what's great about it. Doom and gloom in every aspect. The consensus on this board has always been (correct me if I'm wong) that the ramps needed to go. The Landing is dead. Nobody stepped up to repurpose the asbestos filled courthouse and annex. Berkman is slated for development. And interest rates are hardly high now, and most observers think they will stay the same or even go lower in the near future.
The alternative suggested by this writer is what, exactly? Don't touch the Landing? Keep the ramps? Ignore empty buildings (courthouse, annex)? Erect another tent at Metro Park? And by all means, don't entice Khan to develop?
IMO, it's not the removing of the ramps that's the issue. It's the fact that they've value-engineered the final product on Bay Street to the point that it's not really an improvement on the ground level.
As for the other stuff, there's no evidence the city tried to find a buyer for the old City Hall or courthouse. And the Landing needs improvement but that could be done without spending several times what the building is worth just to turn it into a field.
One thing that has always stood out about downtown redevelopment discussion in Jax is that things are either A or B. In reality, there's C, D, E, F...,etc. options for dealing with a variety of issues.
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 18, 2019, 01:24:43 PM
I don't get what's great about it. Doom and gloom in every aspect. The consensus on this board has always been (correct me if I'm wong) that the ramps needed to go.
I don't think anyone is going to lose sleep about the ramps going, but if they do, push to make the result better than what's in place today. Right now, when it comes to pedestrian and bicycle safety, that's not the case.
QuoteThe Landing is dead.
Dead....because of what? Politics? Mismanagement? How about removing those two things from the equation before spending $23 million to running businesses out and raze with nothing to replace?
QuoteNobody stepped up to repurpose the asbestos filled courthouse and annex.
Every old building has asbestos. That's a pretty poor excuse, since even when you demo, asbestos has to be remediated. Maybe we missed it but when was a RFP ever issued to allow someone the possibility of stepping up?
QuoteBerkman is slated for development.
The major concern about Berkman is subsidizing a hotel's operations for 15 years. That should certainly be vetted, since it screws over the marketplace and public.
QuoteThe alternative suggested by this writer is what, exactly? Don't touch the Landing?
How about give the Landing a bath, use $5 million to improve the place and attract new tenants and put the remaining cash into other downtown projects?
QuoteKeep the ramps?
How about modifying the design to better balance all forms of mobility?
QuoteIgnore empty buildings (courthouse, annex)?
How about issue RFPs for vacant city owned properties?
QuoteErect another tent at Metro Park?
Umm, how about maintaining the things we do have.
QuoteAnd by all means, don't entice Khan to develop?
Or entice redevelopment for Khan and everyone else without screwing over the rest of the marketplace?
There are many ways to deal with Jax's ills and most tend to be a lot cheaper and more beneficial to taxpayers than launching World War III on the urban landscape.
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 18, 2019, 01:24:43 PM
I don't get what's great about it. Doom and gloom in every aspect. The consensus on this board has always been (correct me if I'm wong) that the ramps needed to go. The Landing is dead. Nobody stepped up to repurpose the asbestos filled courthouse and annex. Berkman is slated for development. And interest rates are hardly high now, and most observers think they will stay the same or even go lower in the near future.
It's the classic case of the restaurant reviewer that can't cook at play. It's a gaggle of internet mother-in-laws in the backseat driving. Everything that happens will be wrong. Nothing will ever be right.
You're correct. Every urbanista this side of the Panama Canal normally faint from excitement just hearing about the possibility of a freeway being removed. Removing that elevated section ain't a silver bullet. But just because one move doesn't create a great place, doesn't mean you stop working toward it.
And you can see the lack of thought at work. Removing the Hart Ramp will cost Jacksonville $12 1/2 million, not $37 million.
Now let's give this some perspective. Jacksonville's most recent budget was $1.2 billion. It's costing peanuts.
Less about peanuts and more about getting it right. Get it right and you'll fare better in the long run. Screw it up and you're more likely to to fail to achieve the grand vision.
Hoarding and nit picking isn't a grand vision.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on March 18, 2019, 10:30:23 PM
Hoarding and nit picking isn't a grand vision.
Lol, hoarding?
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on March 18, 2019, 08:34:13 PM
And you can see the lack of thought at work. Removing the Hart Ramp will cost Jacksonville $12 1/2 million, not $37 million.
My understanding is the $12.5 million is the City's contribution. The state and Feds are putting up $25 million more so we taxpayers are paying $37 million one way or the other. Further, I have been told that the $25 million state and Fed dollars could have potentially been redirected toward a long list of other desperately needed urban core road updates/maintenance items had our City leaders made the same passionate pitch for that as they did for the Hart ramps. Thus, $37 million that could be used for other Jax needs are indeed paying for the Hart ramps regardless of what pocket they are officially derived from. Its all a political shell game to confuse the voters.
^Pretty much. No amount of some of the kool aid drinking around here is going to change this reality.
I don't know how anyone can back the Landing. Its a dump, its empty, lacks tenants and has the stigma of the shooting. A fresh lick of paint and removing the weeds won't make a difference. At least the sports complex has venues which will attract a regular crowd. The landing has no sustainable future. It doesn't have sufficient private investment behind it or a business model to give it long term success. It couldn't keep the office crowd, it couldn't attract enough people wanting to party or socialise, its not a shopping destination. Its day has come and gone.
Potentially within the Jags new development there is the following:
TIAA Bank Field
Vets Arena
Baseball Grounds
Dailly's Place
Convention Center
Fairgrounds
These are all places that people visit and spend recreational time at which this development will have much easier access to than the Landing and its still barely a mile from the epicentre of downtown for the office crowd that want to go somewhere thats modern and inviting, not an 80's dilapidated mall.
Quote from: minder on March 19, 2019, 05:58:05 PM
The landing has no sustainable future. It doesn't have sufficient private investment behind it or a business model to give it long term success. It couldn't keep the office crowd, it couldn't attract enough people wanting to party or socialise, its not a shopping destination. Its day has come and gone.
You realize that this is basically the city's fault, right? We spent 15 years jerking Sleiman around on parking and then going back and forth working with and against him on redeveloping the place. Of course a decade and a half in limbo (and part of that being in a recession) means that we end up with a lackluster retail offering and few willing tenants in an outdated building.
More importantly, why would blowing the thing up and leaving an empty patch of grass make private investment or a long term business model appear out of nowhere? More
more importantly, if there was any plan at all, why not make the case for it
before spending millions in taxpayer dollars on demolition?
Quote
Potentially within the Jags new development there is the following:
TIAA Bank Field
Vets Arena
Baseball Grounds
Dailly's Place
Convention Center
Fairgrounds
These are all places that people visit and spend recreational time at which this development will have much easier access to than the Landing and its still barely a mile from the epicentre of downtown for the office crowd that want to go somewhere thats modern and inviting, not an 80's dilapidated mall.
Here you go again. First, Lot J is more than a mile away from downtown, and requires a car to visit, which will apparently only be made more convenient with the ground-level expressway being proposed for almost $40 million in taxpayer money. Urban density is typically not inspired by more sprawl. But that's besides the point. The point is that there is no reason why new development has to happen at the expense of existing structures. The Landing doesn't have to die for Lot J to live. And it's incredibly suspicious on the part of the city that this private development is being made at massive taxpayer expense with only a theoretical benefit for the actual city, versus the Jaguars and Shad Khan.
Blaming the parking? Theres plenty of that around there especially the hours bars would typically be busy - out of office hours. Taxis, uber, lyft these things all exist. God forbid people even have to walk an extra five minutes either to a space down the street. Scraping the barrel for excuses, IMO. Its not like the downtown area is bursting with alternatives thats been taking business away from them. By all means waste money throwing more at a lost cause.
Minder, there's a ton of kool aid drinking in your "potential" post. We've been talking and looking at Shipyards renderings for damn near 20 years now. There is no convention center and I'm pretty sure the ultimate plan is to move the fairgrounds to move too. Even Khan has been parading around renderings of stuff that will never be built in this generation for nearly five years now. A convention center happening at the Shipyards in the next five years is just as likely as Curry inviting Sleiman over for Sunday dinner. The rest of the entertainment venues have been there for a while now and there's still been no infill. Even Kids Kampus was a great waterfront public space and we screwed it up to the point where it didn't last 10 years before blowing it up for a dirt lot....that's now been a dirt lot for nearly 10 years. At some point reality needs to set. When that does, we can finally move forward with realistic redevelopment.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 19, 2019, 07:06:15 PM
Minder, there's a ton of kool aid drinking in your "potential" post. We've been talking and looking at Shipyards renderings for damn near 20 years now. There is no convention center and I'm pretty sure the ultimate plan is to move the fairgrounds to move too. Even Khan has been parading around renderings of stuff that will never be built in this generation for nearly five years now. A convention center happening at the Shipyards in the next five years is just as likely as Curry inviting Sleiman over for Sunday dinner. The rest of the entertainment venues have been there for a while now and there's still been no infill. Even Kids Kampus was a great waterfront public space and we screwed it up to the point where it didn't last 10 years before blowing it up for a dirt lot....that's now been a dirt lot for nearly 10 years. At some point reality needs to set. When that does, we can finally move forward with realistic redevelopment.
And moving EVERYTHING to the sports district WILL NOT improve the DT core. It's great for the suburbanites who think they've visited downtown but to everyone else not so much. With all the new residential and hotel proposed it seems odd to move everything out of reach. None of this makes sense to me.