Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/JEA-Utility-Headquarters/i-9XB6vCF/0/d5e6b5b6/L/Slide1%20copy-L.jpg)
Here are the finalist sites under consideration for the location of the JEA's new corporate headquarters. Although many believe the fix is in for a move to TIAA Bank Field, we're putting the politics and the unreleased financial details of each proposal and development group aside and taking a look at how each site can either help or hurt the continued revitalization of Downtown Jacksonville by using good old fashioned urban planning sense.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/deciphering-jeas-search-whats-best-for-downtown/
Excellent analysis. I truly hope the "fix" isn't in, and they will choose a site that does not hurt downtown. Lot J is NOT downtown!
I think all the options, except Lot J make sense for downtown. I like the Southbank transit connectivity and 95 visibility. I'm ok with the option to stay where they are, I just hope they could potentially keep/sell the existing tower to Atkins and add an additional story or two to make up for the horizontal square footage lost. The two Northbank towers are both good, but I think in terms of visibility and retail activation; the one overlooking the lawn of the courthouse is the better option but I wouldn't be displeased with the La Villa one. Considering the timeline JEA wants, I don't see lot J working unless we are ready to start paying for Lot J as we know we will have to, and personally I think the money could be spent elsewhere right now.
As I look at the discussions of each option, I wonder why it is important for the local utility provider to have high visibility from I-95?
Excellent analysis. However, we're kidding ourselves to think it's going anywhere but Lot J.
^That would really suck. It's one thing to be a place that has no realistic opportunity of having a chance to do something right development-wise. It's another when you get opportunities like this and you find ways to implement the worse possible outcome that actually sets you back.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 03, 2019, 04:55:25 PM
^That would really suck. It's one thing to be a place that has no realistic opportunity of having a chance to do something right development-wise. It's another when you get opportunities like this and you find ways to implement the worse possible outcome that actually sets you back.
Welcome to Jacksonville! ;D
Quote from: Tacachale on February 03, 2019, 08:08:36 PM
Welcome to Jacksonville! ;D
If this decision goes to Lot J, we need to change our name to JAGSonville :)!
I agree with the analysis. My last choices would be Lot J or tearing down the current tower to accommodate the new HQ's. While I am good with any of the the other 3 choices, I agree that the Broad & Church street would serve Downtown best. Next would be adjacent to the Courthouse.
I suspect the change to delay the decision to after the elections is mostly to insulate Curry from accusations before the election that he is controlling JEA (stoking fears he will try to sell it after being re-elected) and and being controlled by Khan should the fix be in for Lot J.
The only two that make sense are the Church St and Adams Street Plans. The Southbank one in a box is a cool, but not at the expense of losing JEA from the core (they get a company from southpoint to move into that building and I'm thrilled
The Lot J one just makes absolutely no sense on so many levels.
Based strictly on helping (or not hurting) the Northbank, the only ones that would likely do that are #2 and #3. The #1 site is probably just far enough from the Northbank eateries to cause them to lose business. With only an hour for lunch, an additional 1-3 blocks to traverse makes a big difference.
Architecturally, the #5 Lot J building is as bland as it gets. I like the #4 site building best from an architecture standpoint. If it were not for Khan's influence, I would bet #4 would win. Most of the decision makers probably live South of the river and have easiest access to that site, since it is right off of I-95 and no river to traverse.
I'd actually favor (slightly) the #1 site. My thought is that the site is a little less attractive to the private sector than the Adams street site. So, since JEA is down there anyway have the quasi-government entity take the less attractive site, leaving the nicer site for true private redevelopment.
Quote from: Steve on February 04, 2019, 11:21:33 AM
I'd actually favor (slightly) the #1 site. My thought is that the site is a little less attractive to the private sector than the Adams street site. So, since JEA is down there anyway have the quasi-government entity take the less attractive site, leaving the nicer site for true private redevelopment.
A valid point to be sure. I doubt they are that benevolent in their thinking though.
My map has #2 and #3 reversed from the text, so I'll have to revise a little later.
With that said, only the Church Street and Adams Street sites provide max economic benefit downtown. Both keep JEA in the core and allow a new dense reuse of the existing JEA Tower. Consider it a two-for-one economic jolt. You don't get both with demolishing and rebuilding at the same site or relocating to Lot J or San Marco.
Proximity to the Skyway is touted as an advantage for that site. How much of an advantage will it be when the Skyway is, first, shut down for 2+ years for the conversion to, second, the U2C mini-cars? JEA should stay in the heart of downtown, at a site that does not involve tearing down the existing tower. I'm not so attached to the shorter building (old Ivey's store) on the site, so if a deal to replace it with a new mid-rise or taller, and leave the Universal Marion building for private development, that would be good, too.
I don't really have a problem if it goes at Lot J. Yeah it would reek of a backhander, but someone else on here put it aptly. Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are each side of the "dumbbell" and as a result I think that'll fuel growth in the middle of the urban core more organically.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2019, 12:55:26 PM
My map has #2 and #3 reversed from the text, so I'll have to revise a little later.
With that said, only the Church Street and Adams Street sites provide max economic benefit downtown. Both keep JEA in the core and allow a new dense reuse of the existing JEA Tower. Consider it a two-for-one economic jolt. You don't get both with demolishing and rebuilding at the same site or relocating to Lot J or San Marco.
100% the choice should be the the site on Adams which will create will create some uninterrupted density from the Courthouse on to Main St. that the city can be proud of. There must be some retail on Adams with a nice cafe or something right on the green space with a nice view of the Courthouse and on down.
Quote from: minder on February 04, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
I don't really have a problem if it goes at Lot J. Yeah it would reek of a backhander, but someone else on here put it aptly. Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are each side of the "dumbbell" and as a result I think that'll fuel growth in the middle of the urban core more organically.
I recall someone else here saying that just hoping the space between is eventually filled in is a silly idea. In a way, Jax already tried something similar to this by razing Lavilla and turning Union Terminal into a convention center. In that way, the dumbbell should have had the urban core on one end and Prime Osborn on the other. If you haven't noticed, that didn't exactly pan out, until
maybe recently with things like the Vestcor projects.
Urban revitalization requires a real plan to both activate existing space and build new space. There is an
enormous amount of empty land between Lot J and Brooklyn, even more now with the Annex and Courthouse demos. If you think that's all just going to fill in by itself, as we already near the end of a bull market, then you've got another thing coming.
Quote from: minder on February 04, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
I don't really have a problem if it goes at Lot J. Yeah it would reek of a backhander, but someone else on here put it aptly. Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are each side of the "dumbbell" and as a result I think that'll fuel growth in the middle of the urban core more organically.
The problem is that's a lie. Neither Brooklyn or the Sports Complex represent each side of a "dumbbell". There is no "dumbbell" of development. That quote comes from those with a vested interest in that story line.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2019, 08:51:57 PM
Quote from: minder on February 04, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
I don't really have a problem if it goes at Lot J. Yeah it would reek of a backhander, but someone else on here put it aptly. Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are each side of the "dumbbell" and as a result I think that'll fuel growth in the middle of the urban core more organically.
The problem is that's a lie. Neither Brooklyn or the Sports Complex represent each side of a "dumbbell". There is no "dumbbell" of development. That quote comes from those with a vested interest in that story line.
Agreed. If that was true then Downtown would already be in a great place thanks to the Convention Center and Sports Complex
Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2019, 08:51:57 PM
Quote from: minder on February 04, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
I don't really have a problem if it goes at Lot J. Yeah it would reek of a backhander, but someone else on here put it aptly. Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are each side of the "dumbbell" and as a result I think that'll fuel growth in the middle of the urban core more organically.
The problem is that's a lie. Neither Brooklyn or the Sports Complex represent each side of a "dumbbell". There is no "dumbbell" of development. That quote comes from those with a vested interest in that story line.
Don't be such a downer. I actually think it'll bring a lot of synergy with the lateral pull down strategy that Balanky is developing with the air gondola, Lori Boyer's kettle bells along the river, and Curry's clean and jerk approach the old Courthouse site. I think it'll encourage so much infill that, within a year, we'll see John Peyton doing squats on the Main Street Bridge while the Landing is imploded.
QuoteI think it'll encourage so much infill that, within a year, we'll see John Peyton doing squats on the Main Street Bridge while the Landing is imploded.
I'm not sure if Peyton would be doing squats but I can see him buying a Hot Dog on the Main Street bridge.
Would love to gauge how the DT employees at JEA feel about each location.
Working at the Jags for 5 years, I got frustrated with all the extracurricular events around the sports complex which made it a hassle to get in and out of work. From concerts at the arena/amphitheater, charity runs, civic events at Met Park, etc.,
My perception is JEA wants to have a site that it easy for their employees to get in and out without pulling their hair or sitting at intersections/streets being told by law enforcement where to turn and park. Not to mention, JEA's office is a 24-hour facility so there are always going to be people coming in and out.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on February 05, 2019, 09:30:27 AM
Would love to gauge how the DT employees at JEA feel about each location.
Working at the Jags for 5 years, I got frustrated with all the extracurricular events around the sports complex which made it a hassle to get in and out of work. From concerts at the arena/amphitheater, charity runs, civic events at Met Park, etc.,
My perception is JEA wants to have a site that it easy for their employees to get in and out without pulling their hair or sitting at intersections/streets being told by law enforcement where to turn and park. Not to mention, JEA's office is a 24-hour facility so there are always going to be people coming in and out.
Based on that, the Southbank proposal would make the most sense, followed by the Ryan plans. Much less likely to get disrupted by events when you're either distant from them or close to the highway to get in or out.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 04, 2019, 10:15:54 PM
Don't be such a downer. I actually think it'll bring a lot of synergy with the lateral pull down strategy that Balanky is developing with the air gondola, Lori Boyer's kettle bells along the river, and Curry's clean and jerk approach the old Courthouse site. I think it'll encourage so much infill that, within a year, we'll see John Peyton doing squats on the Main Street Bridge while the Landing is imploded.
You laugh now, but you won't be when we actually tear down a somewhat iconic landmark for a park we won't maintain! The power of synergy!
Quote from: Jagsdrew on February 05, 2019, 09:30:27 AM
Would love to gauge how the DT employees at JEA feel about each location.
I've got a lot of friends over at JEA, and to a person, their desire is to "remain downtown." They don't consider Lot J or the Southbank to be downtown proper. It's got nothing to do with politics or anti-Khan sentiment or anything like that. As the Downtown Vision study suggested last year, they are simply part of that 90% of the downtown workforce that really enjoys being downtown and they want to remain close to the rest of the workforce and amenities.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 05, 2019, 11:17:05 AM
Quote from: Jagsdrew on February 05, 2019, 09:30:27 AM
Would love to gauge how the DT employees at JEA feel about each location.
I've got a lot of friends over at JEA, and to a person, their desire is to "remain downtown." They don't consider Lot J or the Southbank to be downtown proper. It's got nothing to do with politics or anti-Khan sentiment or anything like that. As the Downtown Vision study suggested last year, they are simply part of that 90% of the downtown workforce that really enjoys being downtown and they want to remain close to the rest of the workforce and amenities.
I have seen a study that the biggest factor in corporate relocation is the proximity to the CEO's golf course.
During the board meeting, JEA has asked some good questions regarding Lot J site:
One question was asked about ease of customer access to the headquarters for those that pay their bills in person. Something to consider with each of the locations. A lot of low income zip codes still travel by public transportation to pay in person.
Sourcing of local companies/minority contractors to assist with construction and in the overall bill of work show the percentage of local sourcing vs nationwide.
Consider these for all the locations especially the first question.
The LaVilla location is adjacent to a First Coast Flyer BRT stop. The bus comes every 10 minutes peak and every 15 minutes off peak. The Southbank location is adjacent to the First Coast Flyer BRT and Skyway's Kings Avenue Station, so it comes with the same accessibility benefit. The existing location (2 block walk) and the proposed Adams Street location (1 block walk) are pretty close to the Skyway's Hemming Park Station. Lot J is the only one a mile away from anything. At this point, they'll need their own shuttle or dream that JTA can come through on the U2C at some distant point in the future.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on February 05, 2019, 11:44:12 AM
During the board meeting, JEA has asked some good questions regarding Lot J site:
One question was asked about ease of customer access to the headquarters for those that pay their bills in person. Something to consider with each of the locations. A lot of low income zip codes still travel by public transportation to pay in person.
EASY.
1) Take the First Coast Flyer to the JRTC.
2) Take an experimental clown car from the JRTC to Jefferson Station.
3) Take the legacy Skyway from Jefferson Station to Central Station.
4) Walk to ground level and, using the JTA App, hail a second clown car to pick you up from Central Station.
5) Board the robovan.
6) Avoid eye contact with the drug dealer.
7) Drive 15 mph down Bay Street, stopping intermittently to allow the gunshot, flood, and speed sensors to gather data to be sent to the airport.
8 ) Arrive at the Sports Complex.
9) Cross 6 lanes of traffic and climb over the toxic wreckage of the Hart Bridge Ramps
10) Arrive at Lot J
11) Hook your first left at Howl at the Moon, your second left at Chilis, and then circle Bennigan's in a counter-clockwise fashion until you see the entrance to the JEA Customer Care Center.
A simple process, really.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2019, 12:10:29 PM
The LaVilla location is adjacent to a First Coast Flyer BRT stop. The bus comes every 10 minutes peak and every 15 minutes off peak. The Southbank location is adjacent to the First Coast Flyer BRT and Skyway's Kings Avenue Station, so it comes with the same accessibility benefit. The existing location (2 block walk) and the proposed Adams Street location (1 block walk) are pretty close to the Skyway's Hemming Park Station. Lot J is the only one a mile away from anything. At this point, they'll need their own shuttle or dream that JTA can come through on the U2C at some distant point in the future.
Lamping responded with U2C potential as well as a bus loop stop near the proposed Lot J location.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on February 05, 2019, 12:16:33 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2019, 12:10:29 PM
The LaVilla location is adjacent to a First Coast Flyer BRT stop. The bus comes every 10 minutes peak and every 15 minutes off peak. The Southbank location is adjacent to the First Coast Flyer BRT and Skyway's Kings Avenue Station, so it comes with the same accessibility benefit. The existing location (2 block walk) and the proposed Adams Street location (1 block walk) are pretty close to the Skyway's Hemming Park Station. Lot J is the only one a mile away from anything. At this point, they'll need their own shuttle or dream that JTA can come through on the U2C at some distant point in the future.
Lamping responded with U2C potential as well as a bus loop stop near the proposed Lot J location.
Alan Howard followed up with 11,000 customers each month pay their bills at JEA's HQ.
LOL at the U2C. Unless, Iguana is paying for it, that's not happening anytime soon and it's still suspect if it will even work. Also what good is a bus loop if there's not bus route with frequent headways?!
Quote from: Jagsdrew on February 05, 2019, 12:19:08 PM
Quote from: Jagsdrew on February 05, 2019, 12:16:33 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2019, 12:10:29 PM
The LaVilla location is adjacent to a First Coast Flyer BRT stop. The bus comes every 10 minutes peak and every 15 minutes off peak. The Southbank location is adjacent to the First Coast Flyer BRT and Skyway's Kings Avenue Station, so it comes with the same accessibility benefit. The existing location (2 block walk) and the proposed Adams Street location (1 block walk) are pretty close to the Skyway's Hemming Park Station. Lot J is the only one a mile away from anything. At this point, they'll need their own shuttle or dream that JTA can come through on the U2C at some distant point in the future.
Lamping responded with U2C potential as well as a bus loop stop near the proposed Lot J location.
Alan Howard followed up with 11,000 customers each month pay their bills at JEA's HQ.
Which again begs the question, how do 11,000 low income walk-in customers fit with the Jags' work/live/play vision for Lot J?
The Jags presentation almost comes off comical today.
Leading with how Lot J would be good for JEA, but also ensure the long-term sustainability of the Jaguars in Jacksonville.
And pitching ticket pre-sale opportunities and event coupons to JEA employees :D
(https://snag.gy/Ntu8Ax.jpg)
The Courthouse site is the site that Ryan will build on if they win, apparently. On Adams.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 05, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
The Courthouse site is the site that Ryan will build on if they win, apparently. On Adams.
Totally cool with that. Like I said, I'd slightly prefer the Church street one, but this would be great too.
Lol I just logged in to the live feed for a couple of minutes. They're doing public comments and Noone is up. He's talking about river access!!! ;D
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2019, 01:02:24 PM
Lol I just logged in to the live feed for a couple of minutes. They're doing public comments and Noone is up. He's talking about river access!!! ;D
He's at JEA, and why you aren't :D :D :D
One factor working in Kings Avenue Station's favor is that they are the only developer open to lease-to-own.
Ryan and Lot J both sound like permanent leases.
JEA has expressed some interest in eventually taking over ownership of their new headquarters, so assuming a fair race, it's a definite advantage.
I missed Ryan's presentation but I was a little more impressed with Blankay's presentation. For one, the parcel of land has been remediated back in 2005, existing garage is built and Public transportation already in place. Only downfall for me is the added traffic in the area when you consider the district and other developments in consideration. Can those roads handle the increased volume.
As expected, Lot J was SUPER underwhelming.
Just felt like a lot of pomp and circumstance regarding all the major players involved and their world renown experience.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 05, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
The Courthouse site is the site that Ryan will build on if they win, apparently. On Adams.
So if Ryan is picked, JEA wouldn't weigh in on the exact location between the three?
^ Discounted event parking?? If JEA leases spaces in the garage, shouldn't they get free event parking with their monthly leases? If somebody tries to charge me for event parking in my garage I threaten to "Strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger!"
How does JEA being at Lot J ensure the Jags stay in Jax, and are the Jags thinking they might leave so there has to even be a "save the Jags component"?
If my wife came in and said, "You have to do X to ensure I stick around" my first question would be, "Are you thinking you might not stick around?"
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 05, 2019, 03:30:43 PM
^ Discounted event parking?? If JEA leases spaces in the garage, shouldn't they get free event parking with their monthly leases? If somebody tries to charge me for event parking in my garage I threaten to "Strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger!"
"Attention JEA Employees. All vehicles must be removed from the garage by 5 PM. Creed and Everclear will be playing at Daily's Place. Repeat, all vehicles must be moved by 5 PM."
Quote from: KenFSU on February 05, 2019, 04:06:28 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 05, 2019, 03:30:43 PM
^ Discounted event parking?? If JEA leases spaces in the garage, shouldn't they get free event parking with their monthly leases? If somebody tries to charge me for event parking in my garage I threaten to "Strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger!"
"Attention JEA Employees. All vehicles must be removed from the garage by 5 PM. Creed and Everclear will be playing at Daily's Place. Repeat, all vehicles must be moved by 5 PM."
Spot on.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 05, 2019, 04:06:28 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 05, 2019, 03:30:43 PM
^ Discounted event parking?? If JEA leases spaces in the garage, shouldn't they get free event parking with their monthly leases? If somebody tries to charge me for event parking in my garage I threaten to "Strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger!"
"Attention JEA Employees. All vehicles must be removed from the garage by 5 PM. Creed and Everclear will be playing at Daily's Place. Repeat, all vehicles must be moved by 5 PM."
And you folks who work 2nd shift, can park downtown and ride the U2C, which stops service 4 hours before your shift is over.
I don't like any of the renderings, too low key, blah blah, and nothing that stands out for people to see or adding to the dramatism of the skyline experience. Why is Jax so afraid to forge ahead, and upwards relative to the almost 1 million people that we've become through consolidation? No, buildings do not make a city; but I'll bet there are numerous people that when they see iconic towers in a city skyline, they will want to stop by, if they are out of town, to check our downtown out, or locals will just want to check out our skyline from time to time because they are proud of it. JEA has been in Jax for decades, and if its any company that should have an iconic and signature standout tower downtown, it is JEA! Hey, Jax is on the move (downtown) so let's add 20 to 25 stories on to this thing, and being that we are finally forging ahead downtown, I'll bet some businesses will relocate downtown and fill up this building in the additional stories left over that the corporation does not need.
And oh, my pick would be the Adams Street location, with about 10 stories of parking garage with 20 to 25 stories or more of office space for employees and other leasing to other businesses.
Quote from: heights unknown on February 05, 2019, 04:54:49 PM
And oh, my pick would be the Adams Street location, with about 10 stories of parking garage with 20 to 25 stories or more of office space for employees and other leasing to other businesses.
JEA has expressed their needs and has mentioned that they want their own building. This is for securit purposes first and foremost as well as they would like to own the building or lease to own.
JEA would be reckless if they built a 20+ story building.
Yeah, the current 19-story building is more space than they need. I don't believe anyone expected 200,000 square feet of space to add up to +30 stories. At best, you get what Progress Energy constructed in downtown St. Petersburg a decade ago:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/St-Petersburg-2012/i-GFw79G9/1/4c817363/X2/P1600896-X2.jpg)
If you want height, that's the Adams Street proposal because it's a one-block site in the actual downtown core. At worst, you get a low-rise, suburban office box in the parking lot of TIAA Bank Field.
QuoteJEA Board Hears From Developers Pitching Proposals For A New Tower
The JEA Board of Directors heard pitches Tuesday from three potential developers for the public utility's planned move into new headquarters.
Chase Properties is proposing an eight story tower near the Kings Avenue Skyway station in San Marco.
The Ryan Companies has submitted proposals for three different towers – of which only one would be built.
The Ryan proposals would result in one of the following being built:
A six story building in the urban core, near the current 55-year-old JEA tower on Adam's Street.
A tower north of the Duval County Courthouse or a tower west of the courthouse.
The third bid from the Cordish Companies - and backed by Jaguars owner Shad Khan - would put JEA at Lot J next to TIAA Bank Field.
Full article: http://news.wjct.org/post/jea-board-hears-developers-pitching-proposals-new-tower
Unless the fix is in, or Cordish gives free rent, there is no logical reason to pick Lot J. I don't love the Kings Ave proposal but I'd be content with it (to be clear, I think it's an awesome proposal for someone not already downtown). Either of the Ryan proposals west of Hemming Park are fat and away the best for downtown (not seeing the economics of any of them).
If JEA doesn't pick Lot J do the Jags leave Jax?
Quote from: Steve on February 05, 2019, 06:54:51 PM
Unless the fix is in, or Cordish gives free rent, there is no logical reason to pick Lot J. I don't love the Kings Ave proposal but I'd be content with it (to be clear, I think it's an awesome proposal for someone not already downtown). Either of the Ryan proposals west of Hemming Park are fat and away the best for downtown (not seeing the economics of any of them).
I think it will be quite the opposite, with the City paying for the infrastructure and remediation at Lot J, as they will for any development at Lot J. It will be the most expensive site, by far.
Yeah. Whatever is developed at Lot J will be heavily subsidized. Taxpayers are already on the hook for $50 million to remove the Hart Bridge ramps. I just get the feeling that if JEA goes to Lot J, it's possible that's the only thing that gets built anytime soon. A decade down the road, a new population will be asking what idiot built JEA's service center in the middle of TIAA Bank Field's parking lot.
Quote from: Kerry on February 05, 2019, 07:09:30 PM
If JEA doesn't pick Lot J do the Jags leave Jax?
Is this a hostage situation? Do we need to call a negotiator to stand outside TIAA Bank Field?
Quote from: Kerry on February 05, 2019, 07:09:30 PM
If JEA doesn't pick Lot J do the Jags leave Jax?
I don't think JEA makes or breaks their plans. I think they have courted other companies so I wouldn't be surprised if word gets out about another company potentially filling that space.
^Agreed. Cordish and the Jags have been discussing this development for a long time, and it was never predicated specifically on JEA or any other single company. Lamping mentioned today that they are talking to several companies, not just JEA,. I definitely think we see the Jags press forward on the office space, Live! Arena, hotel (likely Live! or Loews branded), and residential regardless of what happens with this RFP. I think we're YEARS from seeing any real action on the Shipyards or Met Park though.
I'm getting the vibe that it's going to come down to Ryan and Lot J. Even though Balanky probably gave the strongest presentation today, I don't think the Southbank has the support from the board to make it a serious contender.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2019, 06:40:52 PMIf you want height, that's the Adams Street proposal because it's a one-block site in the actual downtown core. At worst, you get a low-rise, suburban office box in the parking lot of TIAA Bank Field.
(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wjct/files/styles/medium/public/201902/222078_standard.jpeg)
(https://ir.web.com/system/files-encrypted/nasdaq_kms/inline-images/web%20sketch.jpg)
Town Center Two is actually 10% bigger than the proposed JEA building.
I'm kind of shocked after all the visionary talk and renderings over the last five years, the JEA proposal ended being a cheap suburban box at Lot J. That doesn't match the dream that's been sold. It was a tower last year:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-XgnkNdq/0/2e57343b/L/173426_standard-L.png)
Now look at it...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/JEA-Utility-Headquarters/i-xP2sCSD/0/523dbeca/L/Lot%20J%20Public%20Information%20Package_Page_05-L.jpg)
Will the same happen with the other placeholder building sites?
That's some big time value engineering.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2019, 11:51:49 PM
I'm kind of shocked after all the visionary talk and renderings over the last five years, the JEA proposal ended being a cheap suburban box at Lot J. That doesn't match the dream that's been sold. It was a tower last year:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-XgnkNdq/0/2e57343b/L/173426_standard-L.png)
Now look at it...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/JEA-Utility-Headquarters/i-xP2sCSD/0/523dbeca/L/Lot%20J%20Public%20Information%20Package_Page_05-L.jpg)
Will the same happen with the other placeholder building sites?
That's some big time value engineering.
But... look! The top of the parking garage is different now! And there are extra generic placeholder apartments now! Please let us put this generic short box for a utility company next to an entertainment venue that's supposed to anchor an entertainment center!
Jokes aside, geez... at least Silverleaf and Nocatee are
honest about actually building more bland suburban sprawl.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 05, 2019, 10:51:33 PM
^Agreed. Cordish and the Jags have been discussing this development for a long time, and it was never predicated specifically on JEA or any other single company. Lamping mentioned today that they are talking to several companies, not just JEA,. I definitely think we see the Jags press forward on the office space, Live! Arena, hotel (likely Live! or Loews branded), and residential regardless of what happens with this RFP. I think we're YEARS from seeing any real action on the Shipyards or Met Park though.
I'm getting the vibe that it's going to come down to Ryan and Lot J. Even though Balanky probably gave the strongest presentation today, I don't think the Southbank has the support from the board to make it a serious contender.
Agreed on Balanky as I was impressed with his presentation. Lamping did say he wants to secure an anchor tenant before building the entertainment portion but like you said, YEARS away.
Question to think about: Would an anchor want to be around all that entertainment but more importantly all the construction mess of new development around their building and the demolition of the Hart Bridge ramps? Feel that it might frustrate employees and especially customers as road and bus routes will be ever changing.
^I could see the special event parking and associated detours driving employees and customers crazy. JEA's use isn't one that's compatible with an entertainment district.
Time will tell if the general public sentiment is right. For Jacksonville's sake, I hope everyone is wrong.
QuoteAfter the meeting, Howard said he's grown frustrated with a narrative suggesting the board already has chosen the Lot J site and that the bid process is just a formality.
"I think it disrespects this board and the staff at JEA and the consultants that have taken this very seriously," said Howard.
"It's been a very deliberate process," he said.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-board-hears-pitches-for-three-headquarters-sites
Is there a selection matrix, where each proposal are given points against pre-determined standards? That will be interesting to see - but, sadly, not until after the fact.
Quote from: Steve on February 05, 2019, 12:58:07 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on February 05, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
The Courthouse site is the site that Ryan will build on if they win, apparently. On Adams.
Totally cool with that. Like I said, I'd slightly prefer the Church street one, but this would be great too.
When JEA announced the shortlist in January, I believe Ryan was only shortlisted for the Adams site. It was hard to hear but I am pretty sure that is whey they only presented on Adams yesterday.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 08:55:22 AM
^I could see the special event parking and associated detours driving employees and customers crazy. JEA's use isn't one that's compatible with an entertainment district.
What if you had to pay in person your electric bill at JEA if they were at the Lot J location and had to pay a fine at the courthouse but you didn't have a means of transportation, only public transportation. How long would that take you? It's a good amount of time, especially during the week/work hours. Not many frequent public transportation options out there.
With the Adams St. and Kings Ave. location, there is access to public transportation both with the skyway and bus but more specifically the First Coast Flyer with stops every 15 mins or so. Both options take you to the Rosa Parks Station to get you where you need to go throughout Jax.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2019, 11:51:49 PM
I'm kind of shocked after all the visionary talk and renderings over the last five years, the JEA proposal ended being a cheap suburban box at Lot J. That doesn't match the dream that's been sold. It was a tower last year:
Will the same happen with the other placeholder building sites?
That's some big time value engineering.
Like I said in the other thread, IF Lot J is selected, the JEA board should mandate that Khan/Cordish complete certain aspects of his Lot J or Shipyards conceptual plans within a certain time period after construction of JEA HQ.
There are numerous forms of recourse for JEA if Khan/Cordish do not deliver on the rest of the development. I believe that Khan/Cordish can take out a surety bond for the value of proposed construction that would then be owed to JEA or the City if they fail to deliver. Or they could put a set amount of cash in an escrow that would be paid to JEA if they fail to deliver. Or heck, make them have to give the building to JEA for free (or at a heavy discount) if they don't deliver.
If Lot J is selected, it is almost solely due to being part of a master development by Khan/Cordish. If JEA goes with Lot J with no legal and financial assurances of construction of the rest of the master development, it will be THE WORST decision of all time in Jacksonville, a City known for making bad decisions.
Quote from: Joseph on February 06, 2019, 09:29:52 AM
Quote from: Steve on February 05, 2019, 12:58:07 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on February 05, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
The Courthouse site is the site that Ryan will build on if they win, apparently. On Adams.
Totally cool with that. Like I said, I'd slightly prefer the Church street one, but this would be great too.
When JEA announced the shortlist in January, I believe Ryan was only shortlisted for the Adams site. It was hard to hear but I am pretty sure that is whey they only presented on Adams yesterday.
Yes, the Adams Street site is what they presented yesterday.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 09:15:01 AM
Time will tell if the general public sentiment is right. For Jacksonville's sake, I hope everyone is wrong.
QuoteAfter the meeting, Howard said he's grown frustrated with a narrative suggesting the board already has chosen the Lot J site and that the bid process is just a formality.
"I think it disrespects this board and the staff at JEA and the consultants that have taken this very seriously," said Howard.
"It's been a very deliberate process," he said.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-board-hears-pitches-for-three-headquarters-sites
If the fix wasn't in Lot J would have already been discarded as an option. There is no other reason for JEA to chose that location.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 09:15:01 AM
Time will tell if the general public sentiment is right. For Jacksonville's sake, I hope everyone is wrong.
QuoteAfter the meeting, Howard said he's grown frustrated with a narrative suggesting the board already has chosen the Lot J site and that the bid process is just a formality.
"I think it disrespects this board and the staff at JEA and the consultants that have taken this very seriously," said Howard.
"It's been a very deliberate process," he said.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jea-board-hears-pitches-for-three-headquarters-sites
This is the same language they used right before they voted unanimously to pick Aaron Zahn as CEO.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on February 06, 2019, 09:32:36 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 08:55:22 AM
^I could see the special event parking and associated detours driving employees and customers crazy. JEA's use isn't one that's compatible with an entertainment district.
What if you had to pay in person your electric bill at JEA if they were at the Lot J location and had to pay a fine at the courthouse but you didn't have a means of transportation, only public transportation. How long would that take you? It's a good amount of time, especially during the week/work hours. Not many frequent public transportation options out there.
With the Adams St. and Kings Ave. location, there is access to public transportation both with the skyway and bus but more specifically the First Coast Flyer with stops every 15 mins or so. Both options take you to the Rosa Parks Station to get you where you need to go throughout Jax.
One of the things that sticks out to me the most about this story is the fact that 11,000 customers are paying their JEA bills in person each month, with the majority coming from three low-income zip codes specifically. Rather than strictly finding a new place for these people to continue to pay their bills in person, JEA needs to be working to identify why these people are paying in person, and finding innovative ways to help alleviate some of that burden. If they can't afford the $2-$5 monthly convenience fee, JEA should waive it (really, it shouldn't exist in the first place in 2019). If they're unbanked prepay customers paying with cash or money order, JEA should find a way to pick up.
When we make these decisions about things like public transportation and where to locate public utilities, I think too often we think about how flashy they will look on a marketing brochure and how they will appeal to the casual suburbanite end-user while failing to properly take into account the socioeconomic impact these decisions will have on the people who depend on them for survival. When we talk about cashless robovans and a Lot J JEA headquarters, I don't think we realize how screwed the low-income community is by the existing system. These people are barely scraping by, and they're being screwed either way, rather it's through monthly bank fees and an exploitative overdraft system, or by check-cashing/payday advance fees plus service fees on prepaid services and debit cards.
JTA & JEA are about so much more than just flashy renders, which makes Lamping's comments about JEA in-person billpayers being about to take the clowncars to Lot J and enjoy the Live! amenities particularly tone deaf.
^Great post! It's pretty clear that we don't think much about social equity, economic mobility and environmental justice in many of the decisions we make.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 11:58:15 AM
^Great post! It's pretty clear that we don't think much about social equity, economic mobility and environmental justice in many of the decisions we make.
What is kind of strange, the Jags have been pretty clear that without Lot J their future in Jax is questionable. When the Sonics moved from Seattle to Oklahoma City the community leaders in Seattle said it would be poor minorities that got hurt the most because of all the charities, free events, and public appearances the Sonics provided to that segment of society.
It is quite a Catch 22 for Jacksonville in that regard.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 06, 2019, 11:53:16 AM
JTA & JEA are about so much more than just flashy renders, which makes Lamping's comments about JEA in-person billpayers being about to take the clowncars to Lot J and enjoy the Live! amenities particularly tone deaf.
Outstanding post, you definitely nailed it. The Jags are using all the gov't entities as a bargaining chip so that they can get behind the lot J proposal so that not only the Jaguars dreams come true with an anchor tenant but also all of JTA's, COJ's, etc. proposed projects come true as well.
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 12:58:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 11:58:15 AM
^Great post! It's pretty clear that we don't think much about social equity, economic mobility and environmental justice in many of the decisions we make.
What is kind of strange, the Jags have been pretty clear that without Lot J their future in Jax is questionable. When the Sonics moved from Seattle to Oklahoma City the community leaders in Seattle said it would be poor minorities that got hurt the most because of all the charities, free events, and public appearances the Sonics provided to that segment of society.
It is quite a Catch 22 for Jacksonville in that regard.
These things don't always trickle down like their promoted to do. However, getting your lights cut off because you can't easily access the office to pay your bill in person is direct and immediate.
I agree but don't be surprised when the Jags float that ballon. They are already laying the groundwork for it.
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 01:51:26 PM
I agree but don't be surprised when the Jags float that ballon. They are already laying the groundwork for it.
JEA not moving to Lot J doesn't kill their plans. Nothing's stopping them from developing the thing.
Quote from: Steve on February 06, 2019, 03:22:38 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 01:51:26 PM
I agree but don't be surprised when the Jags float that ballon. They are already laying the groundwork for it.
JEA not moving to Lot J doesn't kill their plans. Nothing's stopping them from developing the thing.
I doubt they will build a Spec office building. They need someone to be the pioneer tenant before they will build an office building. I question if they will build the entertainment part without something else going up as well.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 06, 2019, 04:10:28 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 06, 2019, 03:22:38 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 01:51:26 PM
I agree but don't be surprised when the Jags float that ballon. They are already laying the groundwork for it.
JEA not moving to Lot J doesn't kill their plans. Nothing's stopping them from developing the thing.
I doubt they will build a Spec office building. They need someone to be the pioneer tenant before they will build an office building. I question if they will build the entertainment part without something else going up as well.
Not saying that. I'm saying that if JEA doesn't select Lot J, it doesn't stop someone else from wanting to move there. Go get another company.
I beg to differ - I think JEA is the core of their Lot J plans.
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 05:37:12 PM
I beg to differ - I think JEA is the core of their Lot J plans.
Let me get this straight....they put together a plan for Lot J, a mixed use entertainment district, almost 18 months ago, and as the anchor of this mixed use plan was the relocation of Jacksonville's public utility!?
I'm not going to say the fix isn't in, because it may be, but I highly doubt this plan was designed entirely around the power company being a central focus of it.
Quote from: Steve on February 06, 2019, 06:00:59 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 05:37:12 PM
I beg to differ - I think JEA is the core of their Lot J plans.
Let me get this straight....they put together a plan for Lot J, a mixed use entertainment district, almost 18 months ago, and as the anchor of this mixed use plan was the relocation of Jacksonville's public utility!?
I'm not going to say the fix isn't in, because it may be, but I highly doubt this plan was designed entirely around the power company being a central focus of it.
And more importantly, if this plan
was designed entirely around the
power company being a central focus, then they clearly aren't competent enough to be launching a mixed-use entertainment district, and should probably not be trusted to properly manage said mixed-use entertainment district.
It makes sense if you follow the time line.
Oct 18, 2018
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/10/18/jaguars-lot-j-could-show-progress-in-late-2018.html
QuoteDevelopment of Lot J development is now the top priority for the Jacksonville Jaguars — and could even begin this year — after owner Shad Khan withdrew his offer to purchase Wembley Stadium in London.
...
"The acquisition of Wembley Stadium was designed to serve a very specific purpose and that was to strengthen the Jaguars here in Jacksonville," Lamping said at press conference on Thursday. "The fact that it's not going to happen puts pressure on us to find other ways to generate the revenue that would've come from there and we are confident that we will do that.
...
The team is now turning to Lot J and Lamping said there could be progress on the project by the end of 2018 or early next year.
So what was this progress by end of 2018 or early next year?
Well, we now know that months prior to July 30, 2018 the Jags solicited JEA. Let's call that April 30, 2018 since we don't know what 'months' means.
July 30, 2018
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jea-looking-at-developing-lot-j-for-new-headquarters/802090589
QuoteJEA confirms to Action News Jax that the Jaguars reached out to the utility months ago about being an anchor tenant at its proposed $2 billion Lot J development at TIAA Bank Field.
So for almost a year (they didn't think of JEA and then make the pitch on the same day) the Jags have been planning for JEA to be their anchor tenant.
What else happened in April 2018? For one, Khan shifted the focus from The Shipyard to Lot J.
April 19, 2018
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/jaguars-share-vision-for-lot-j-entertainment-district
QuoteThe focus for the development around the stadium, at least in the near-term, has shifted from the Shipyards to Lot J.
...
The hope is that Lot J will become a place people want to go to, and not just on game day.
...
Khan and Lamping both said the development doesn't change or replace their desire to ultimately develop the Shipyards, but they believe the Lot J plan will be easier to get approved.
The goal would be to start with the lot and work downtown.
So to answer your question - Yes, I do think Khan and Company built the entire Lot J project around JEA. If there is any other company under consideration it is the best kept secret in Jacksonville. Vystar wasn't even approached.
Here's an article that talks about shifting to Lot J a few months (January 2018) earlier than the source you found. However, it only speaks of the entertainment center:
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/entertainment/jaguars-turn-sights-on-lot-j-at-stadium-for-entertainment-district/77-511996615
Also KenFSU mentioned months ago that VyStar did consider Lot J:
Quote from: KenFSU on June 07, 2018, 06:53:41 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 07, 2018, 06:05:02 PM
In many cities they are DRAMATICALLY cheaper. In Jacksonville they might not be....I'm guessing that VyStar is paying less for the tower than it would cost to build from scratch.
Vystar is paying $175 per square foot for the Suntrust building; they estimated $300 per square foot for a suburban campus.
They also talked Iguana about Lot J and Elements about the District before deciding on the Suntrust building.
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 07:43:34 PM
It makes sense if you follow the time line.
Oct 18, 2018
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/10/18/jaguars-lot-j-could-show-progress-in-late-2018.html
QuoteDevelopment of Lot J development is now the top priority for the Jacksonville Jaguars — and could even begin this year — after owner Shad Khan withdrew his offer to purchase Wembley Stadium in London.
...
"The acquisition of Wembley Stadium was designed to serve a very specific purpose and that was to strengthen the Jaguars here in Jacksonville," Lamping said at press conference on Thursday. "The fact that it's not going to happen puts pressure on us to find other ways to generate the revenue that would've come from there and we are confident that we will do that.
...
The team is now turning to Lot J and Lamping said there could be progress on the project by the end of 2018 or early next year.
So what was this progress by end of 2018 or early next year?
Well, we now know that months prior to July 30, 2018 the Jags solicited JEA. Let's call that April 30, 2018 since we don't know what 'months' means.
July 30, 2018
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jea-looking-at-developing-lot-j-for-new-headquarters/802090589
QuoteJEA confirms to Action News Jax that the Jaguars reached out to the utility months ago about being an anchor tenant at its proposed $2 billion Lot J development at TIAA Bank Field.
So for almost a year (they didn't think of JEA and then make the pitch on the same day) the Jags have been planning for JEA to be their anchor tenant.
What else happened in April 2018? For one, Khan shifted the focus from The Shipyard to Lot J.
April 19, 2018
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/jaguars-share-vision-for-lot-j-entertainment-district
QuoteThe focus for the development around the stadium, at least in the near-term, has shifted from the Shipyards to Lot J.
...
The hope is that Lot J will become a place people want to go to, and not just on game day.
...
Khan and Lamping both said the development doesn't change or replace their desire to ultimately develop the Shipyards, but they believe the Lot J plan will be easier to get approved.
The goal would be to start with the lot and work downtown.
So to answer your question - Yes, I do think Khan and Company built the entire Lot J project around JEA. If there is any other company under consideration it is the best kept secret in Jacksonville. Vystar wasn't even approached.
Dude, they wanted an office tenant. It's not every day that someone is looking for space for 900 jobs in the core. They may have known JEA would be looking, but the reason they shifted the development proposal to Lot J is because unlike the shipyards, the City would have less say.
JEA's needs, aside from not wanting to be part of a mixed use building, aren't very different than any office building proposal.
You're right - it isn't everyday, especially in Jax, which further convinces me their plan for the last 12 months has been JEA and only JEA. If Vystar was in talks that would have been over a year ago.
How do you figure? They announced their intention to acquire the SunTrust Tower in June 2018.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2019, 06:40:52 PM
Yeah, the current 19-story building is more space than they need. I don't believe anyone expected 200,000 square feet of space to add up to +30 stories. At best, you get what Progress Energy constructed in downtown St. Petersburg a decade ago:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/St-Petersburg-2012/i-GFw79G9/1/4c817363/X2/P1600896-X2.jpg)
If you want height, that's the Adams Street proposal because it's a one-block site in the actual downtown core. At worst, you get a low-rise, suburban office box in the parking lot of TIAA Bank Field.
Hey, that's not a bad looking building; I like that; now put a parking garage underneath it...LOLOLOL...I know y'all think I am crazy, yeah, wishful thinking; I get it, I understand what you're saying Lake and others. But I can wish, dream, wish, dream, ho, hum, blah, blah, tired, go to sleep, while tampa, Miami, Orlando, fort Lauderdale, st. Petersburg, even Tallahassee all zoom past Jax...oh, I'm sorry, I was just dreaming.
Its simple. The Jags are going to keep proposing office space to companies even if they're not looking. With all the top business leaders always connected to each other, Lamping sure has probably put his feelers out to a lot CEOs and RVPs in Jax.
They'll adjust their renderings to correspond to the next companiy's needs and present it, no different than what we saw Tuesday except it will be less public. I'm sure he's probably talked with Aetna before they moved to the Southside, Web.com before they built near the Town Center, etc. These plans/renderings have been in motion for years before it was brought to the public eye.
It's not make or break with JEA.
Here is the opinion of Nate Monroe, of the TU - https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190206/nate-monroe-dark-future-ahead-for-jacksonvilles-utility?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=TheFloridaTimesUnion-SND
Quote
But there is one overwhelming reason JEA's future headquarters will probably go there: Khan wants it.
Since the JEA board now operates as more a sub-department within the mayor's office, Khan, a prolific contributor to local politicians generally and Curry specifically, is the easy favorite.
He also talks about the potential sale of JEA arising again.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 09:48:23 PM
How do you figure? They announced their intention to acquire the SunTrust Tower in June 2018.
Personal experience with how long it takes companies to make a decision this big. Not that I am super experienced with it but in the few I am familiar with the decision was well over a year in the making and in one case over 2 years for a new tower. Vystar probably knew they needed move 2 years ago.
So you don't know for sure if they were courted by Iguana or not. Just a guess.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 11:43:34 PM
So you don't know for sure if they were courted by Iguana or not. Just a guess.
If it fits his narrative, Kerry doesn't worry about the trivial details like facts or evidence. There's a conspiracy going on here and he's going to uncover it.
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 09:19:03 PM
You're right - it isn't everyday, especially in Jax, which further convinces me their plan for the last 12 months has been JEA and only JEA. If Vystar was in talks that would have been over a year ago.
Crazy talk. They wouldn't spend all this money and time planning out a complex just on the possibility that JEA MIGHT move in. They are pushing JEA because they want to fill their planned office space. If VyStar or anyone else showed serious interest, they would aggressively pursue them. Thats what you do when you are planning on building office space. You do everything you can to fill it with someone. JEA has nothing to do with the plans, except that they are looking for office space at the same time Khan is trying to create office space. Now, to try to get JEA in there, they did redesign the office building to be smaller, to perfectly fit JEA, but they are not planning out Lot J just for JEA. They are doing it to make some money outside the stadium. Period.
Quote from: Lostwave on February 07, 2019, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 09:19:03 PM
You're right - it isn't everyday, especially in Jax, which further convinces me their plan for the last 12 months has been JEA and only JEA. If Vystar was in talks that would have been over a year ago.
Crazy talk. They wouldn't spend all this money and time planning out a complex just on the possibility that JEA MIGHT move in. They are pushing JEA because they want to fill their planned office space. If VyStar or anyone else showed serious interest, they would aggressively pursue them. Thats what you do when you are planning on building office space. You do everything you can to fill it with someone. JEA has nothing to do with the plans, except that they are looking for office space at the same time Khan is trying to create office space. Now, to try to get JEA in there, they did redesign the office building to be smaller, to perfectly fit JEA, but they are not planning out Lot J just for JEA. They are doing it to make some money outside the stadium. Period.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/b2f7b0a8d0feebc7d54852c49f1eb03d/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Lostwave on February 07, 2019, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 09:19:03 PM
You're right - it isn't everyday, especially in Jax, which further convinces me their plan for the last 12 months has been JEA and only JEA. If Vystar was in talks that would have been over a year ago.
Crazy talk. They wouldn't spend all this money and time planning out a complex just on the possibility that JEA MIGHT move in. They are pushing JEA because they want to fill their planned office space. If VyStar or anyone else showed serious interest, they would aggressively pursue them. Thats what you do when you are planning on building office space. You do everything you can to fill it with someone. JEA has nothing to do with the plans, except that they are looking for office space at the same time Khan is trying to create office space. Now, to try to get JEA in there, they did redesign the office building to be smaller, to perfectly fit JEA, but they are not planning out Lot J just for JEA. They are doing it to make some money outside the stadium. Period.
I don't think anyone implied that LOT J was designed with JEA specifically in mind, but obviously they need someone to step up to the plate. Users of 200k SF of office space are not in great abundance. Even more so, one that explicitly wants to be DT. If Iguana didn't approach VyStar, then that does not speak well of them. Most likely Iguana couldn't touch the deal they got at Laura Street. That is part of the problem. Office space is DT is plentiful and cheap, thus why pay the necessary expense of what a new building would have to charge to be profitable? That is even more true in what is a 'pioneer' location.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 06, 2019, 10:44:39 PM
Here is the opinion of Nate Monroe, of the TU - https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190206/nate-monroe-dark-future-ahead-for-jacksonvilles-utility?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=TheFloridaTimesUnion-SND
Quote
But there is one overwhelming reason JEA's future headquarters will probably go there: Khan wants it.
Since the JEA board now operates as more a sub-department within the mayor's office, Khan, a prolific contributor to local politicians generally and Curry specifically, is the easy favorite.
He also talks about the potential sale of JEA arising again.
The potential for the JEA sale talk to rear its head in the next year or so is a really interesting subplot to this whole thing.
Most people that I talk to within JEA expect it to resurface, and it's probably one of the reasons that Husein Cumber stepped down from the board citing a conflict of interest with his wife being a member of City Council.
Khan and Curry are likely united in their desire to see JEA relocate to Lot J, but it's clear that they're on totally opposite pages when it comes to the privatization of JEA.
When the idea was floated last year, Shad Khan came straight out and said selling JEA was stupid and would be a terrible mistake for the city. Say what you want about the guy, but it was a really firm stance from a guy who would probably stand to benefit more than anyone else in the city from a gigantic windfall from a JEA sale.
I feel like JEA partnering with Khan would actually give him some additional influence in the privatization talks.
To the points above about Lot J being built specifically for JEA, as others have mentioned, that's just simply not true. They pitched VyStar. They pitched JEA. I'm sure they've pitched others. And there are a lot of leases coming up in the next one to three years. JEA just happened to be next in line.
The Jags aren't desperate. Even if they don't have an anchor company when they start construction, the prospect of being part of a shiny new Cordish development, subsidized by the city, with all of these extra sports complex perks that the Jags are floating, is going to appeal to someone, just like it has in their other markets. Hopefully it doesn't come at the expense of a company already anchored in the CBD, but it'll happen, with or without JEA. No one's in panic mode.
QuoteTo the points above about Lot J being built specifically for JEA, as others have mentioned, that's just simply not true.
Again, I don't think anyone said or believes this.
But they do need SOMEONE to sign a lease before they start an office building. Yes, at some point, someone will do that. The question is who, how soon, and how much space will they build? Chances are it will be JEA, because of the political pressure, and that is not a good thing, because it would be for the wrong reasons.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 07, 2019, 02:04:44 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 06, 2019, 10:44:39 PM
Here is the opinion of Nate Monroe, of the TU - https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190206/nate-monroe-dark-future-ahead-for-jacksonvilles-utility?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=TheFloridaTimesUnion-SND
Quote
But there is one overwhelming reason JEA's future headquarters will probably go there: Khan wants it.
Since the JEA board now operates as more a sub-department within the mayor's office, Khan, a prolific contributor to local politicians generally and Curry specifically, is the easy favorite.
He also talks about the potential sale of JEA arising again.
The potential for the JEA sale talk to rear its head in the next year or so is a really interesting subplot to this whole thing.
Most people that I talk to within JEA expect it to resurface, and it's probably one of the reasons that Husein Cumber stepped down from the board citing a conflict of interest with his wife being a member of City Council.
Khan and Curry are likely united in their desire to see JEA relocate to Lot J, but it's clear that they're on totally opposite pages when it comes to the privatization of JEA.
When the idea was floated last year, Shad Khan came straight out and said selling JEA was stupid and would be a terrible mistake for the city. Say what you want about the guy, but it was a really firm stance from a guy who would probably stand to benefit more than anyone else in the city from a gigantic windfall from a JEA sale.
I feel like JEA partnering with Khan would actually give him some additional influence in the privatization talks.
To the points above about Lot J being built specifically for JEA, as others have mentioned, that's just simply not true. They pitched VyStar. They pitched JEA. I'm sure they've pitched others. And there are a lot of leases coming up in the next one to three years. JEA just happened to be next in line.
The Jags aren't desperate. Even if they don't have an anchor company when they start construction, the prospect of being part of a shiny new Cordish development, subsidized by the city, with all of these extra sports complex perks that the Jags are floating, is going to appeal to someone, just like it has in their other markets. Hopefully it doesn't come at the expense of a company already anchored in the CBD, but it'll happen, with or without JEA. No one's in panic mode.
Agreed. Well stated. All of those reasons are why JEA should not go there. There is a better chance of attracting a current suburban employer to the stadium than in the Northbank core at this point.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 07, 2019, 02:43:07 PM
QuoteTo the points above about Lot J being built specifically for JEA, as others have mentioned, that's just simply not true.
Again, I don't think anyone said or believes this.
But they do need SOMEONE to sign a lease before they start an office building. Yes, at some point, someone will do that. The question is who, how soon, and how much space will they build? Chances are it will be JEA, because of the political pressure, and that is not a good thing, because it would be for the wrong reasons.
Did you miss Kerry's tinfoil hat conspiracy theories a couple pages back?
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 07, 2019, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on February 07, 2019, 02:43:07 PM
QuoteTo the points above about Lot J being built specifically for JEA, as others have mentioned, that's just simply not true.
Again, I don't think anyone said or believes this.
But they do need SOMEONE to sign a lease before they start an office building. Yes, at some point, someone will do that. The question is who, how soon, and how much space will they build? Chances are it will be JEA, because of the political pressure, and that is not a good thing, because it would be for the wrong reasons.
Did you miss Kerry's tinfoil hat conspiracy theories a couple pages back?
Kerry thinks the 'fix' is in for JEA to go to Lot J. He may very well be right, but that remains to be seen. Either way, that is not at all the same thing as saying the Lot J plans were designed with JEA in mind. Iguana designed it with generic office space users as part of the mix. But when the JEA option came along, they changed their plans to mesh with JEA's, and are perhaps using undue influence to seal the deal.
Vic, here is the post in question. Read the last line.
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 07:43:34 PM
It makes sense if you follow the time line.
Oct 18, 2018
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/10/18/jaguars-lot-j-could-show-progress-in-late-2018.html
QuoteDevelopment of Lot J development is now the top priority for the Jacksonville Jaguars — and could even begin this year — after owner Shad Khan withdrew his offer to purchase Wembley Stadium in London.
...
"The acquisition of Wembley Stadium was designed to serve a very specific purpose and that was to strengthen the Jaguars here in Jacksonville," Lamping said at press conference on Thursday. "The fact that it's not going to happen puts pressure on us to find other ways to generate the revenue that would've come from there and we are confident that we will do that.
...
The team is now turning to Lot J and Lamping said there could be progress on the project by the end of 2018 or early next year.
So what was this progress by end of 2018 or early next year?
Well, we now know that months prior to July 30, 2018 the Jags solicited JEA. Let's call that April 30, 2018 since we don't know what 'months' means.
July 30, 2018
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jea-looking-at-developing-lot-j-for-new-headquarters/802090589
QuoteJEA confirms to Action News Jax that the Jaguars reached out to the utility months ago about being an anchor tenant at its proposed $2 billion Lot J development at TIAA Bank Field.
So for almost a year (they didn't think of JEA and then make the pitch on the same day) the Jags have been planning for JEA to be their anchor tenant.
What else happened in April 2018? For one, Khan shifted the focus from The Shipyard to Lot J.
April 19, 2018
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/jaguars-share-vision-for-lot-j-entertainment-district
QuoteThe focus for the development around the stadium, at least in the near-term, has shifted from the Shipyards to Lot J.
...
The hope is that Lot J will become a place people want to go to, and not just on game day.
...
Khan and Lamping both said the development doesn't change or replace their desire to ultimately develop the Shipyards, but they believe the Lot J plan will be easier to get approved.
The goal would be to start with the lot and work downtown.
So to answer your question - Yes, I do think Khan and Company built the entire Lot J project around JEA. If there is any other company under consideration it is the best kept secret in Jacksonville. Vystar wasn't even approached.
I stand corrected.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 07, 2019, 04:06:29 PMIguana designed it with generic office space users as part of the mix. But when the JEA option came along, they changed their plans to mesh with JEA's, and are perhaps using undue influence to seal the deal.
Absolutely true.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2019, 11:43:34 PM
So you don't know for sure if they were courted by Iguana or not. Just a guess.
No I don't, and if they were I don't know the level of that interest. All I know is JEA has been targeted from almost the beginning - assuming media reports are correct.
Just a friendly reminder that JEA hasn't disclosed the economic/financials for each projects.
Once we see those, the majority of the cards are in the table. I
Khan doesn't want JEA private because that complicates efforts to get JEA to Lot J. He would have to present his case to a Board of Directors that doesn't care if he owns the Jags or not. With it remaining part of the City he can influence things with political donations.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 07, 2019, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on February 07, 2019, 02:43:07 PM
QuoteTo the points above about Lot J being built specifically for JEA, as others have mentioned, that's just simply not true.
Again, I don't think anyone said or believes this.
But they do need SOMEONE to sign a lease before they start an office building. Yes, at some point, someone will do that. The question is who, how soon, and how much space will they build? Chances are it will be JEA, because of the political pressure, and that is not a good thing, because it would be for the wrong reasons.
Did you miss Kerry's tinfoil hat conspiracy theories a couple pages back?
Either I didn't explain it correctly or something. Lot J is not being built for JEA. I meant JEA is the key ingredient that makes Lot J possible. If JEA doesn't make the Lot J choice I expect things go silent on Lot J and the Shipyards.
Quote from: Kerry on February 08, 2019, 03:19:14 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 07, 2019, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on February 07, 2019, 02:43:07 PM
QuoteTo the points above about Lot J being built specifically for JEA, as others have mentioned, that's just simply not true.
Again, I don't think anyone said or believes this.
But they do need SOMEONE to sign a lease before they start an office building. Yes, at some point, someone will do that. The question is who, how soon, and how much space will they build? Chances are it will be JEA, because of the political pressure, and that is not a good thing, because it would be for the wrong reasons.
Did you miss Kerry's tinfoil hat conspiracy theories a couple pages back?
Either I didn't explain it correctly or something. Lot J is not being built for JEA. I meant JEA is the key ingredient that makes Lot J possible. If JEA doesn't make the Lot J choice I expect things go silent on Lot J and the Shipyards.
So another company with a similar job count wouldn't work? Didn't VyStar confirm they talked about it?
If another company is under consideration it hasn't been mentioned by anyone and Khan has been in talks with JEA for a year. As far as Vystar, the only thing I have seen in any media is a comment from Vystar that they considered Lot J, but they didn't say what level of interest they had or if they even talked to anyone at the Jags about it.
Quote from: Kerry on February 08, 2019, 03:15:41 PM
Khan doesn't want JEA private because that complicates efforts to get JEA to Lot J. He would have to present his case to a Board of Directors that doesn't care if he owns the Jags or not. With it remaining part of the City he can influence things with political donations.
Couldn't a public JEA and the City commit to Lot J, construction start, then be sold to a Curry contributor?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 08, 2019, 05:59:53 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 08, 2019, 03:15:41 PM
Khan doesn't want JEA private because that complicates efforts to get JEA to Lot J. He would have to present his case to a Board of Directors that doesn't care if he owns the Jags or not. With it remaining part of the City he can influence things with political donations.
Couldn't a public JEA and the City commit to Lot J, construction start, then be sold to a Curry contributor?
I guess so. Once the deal is signed it's signed. It is funny that Khan's comments about privatizing JEA came at about the same time he was pitching Lot J to JEA. No wonder he didn't want anything changing with JEA, and of course, Curry jumped right aboard with those comments.
April 20, 2018
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jacksonville-jaguars-owner-shad-khan-selling-jea-a-terrible-idea/735299049
Quote"They should not be pursuing this right now, and they need to get back to serving the customers and develop a strategic plan, so they can adjust to the market forces for the future," Curry said.
Could that "strategic plan" and "market forces" be Lot J? I think so.