Metro Jacksonville

And so the dance begins..... anyone have a billion dollars to spare?

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/future-of-aging-stadium-a-concern-for-the-jaguars

Not a surprise, but boy do those guys like tossing a lot of balls in the air.

I think this is a key quote:

Quote
On Monday, he cautioned that new construction isn't always the answer.

"I would think that in this marketplace the first thing we would look at is a refurbishment of the existing stadium," Lamping said.

This is the path that we really need to go down. I bet all of the things being discussed (suites, press box, seating options to a degree) could be done through a renovation versus rebuild. A roof might be tougher; the renderings in the article are a sunshade versus a true roof and air conditioning the place (i.e. what Miami did).

Quote from: Bill Hoff on January 10, 2019, 09:41:56 AM
And so the dance begins..... anyone have a billion dollars to spare?

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/future-of-aging-stadium-a-concern-for-the-jaguars

Khan might. Maybe he can cut off his douchey ponytail and sell it to the highest bidder.

What Miami did with their stadium will be the next major renovation for the stadium.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 10, 2019, 09:57:12 AM
What Miami did with their stadium will be the next major renovation for the stadium.

Stephen Ross used his own money for the $400 million renovation. They failed to secure public subsidies.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 10, 2019, 10:08:28 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 10, 2019, 09:57:12 AM
What Miami did with their stadium will be the next major renovation for the stadium.

Stephen Ross used his own money for the $400 million renovation. They failed to secure public subsidies.

A major renovation of that stadium has a much bigger payoff than Jax could achieve. Ross gets $14 million per year in naming rights, compared to $4 million in Jax. Plus he has a lease from the Hurricanes, regular Super Bowl rotation, and the Orange Bowl (College Football Playoffs).

Quote from: CityLife on January 10, 2019, 10:20:52 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 10, 2019, 10:08:28 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 10, 2019, 09:57:12 AM
What Miami did with their stadium will be the next major renovation for the stadium.

Stephen Ross used his own money for the $400 million renovation. They failed to secure public subsidies.

A major renovation of that stadium has a much bigger payoff than Jax could achieve. Ross gets $14 million per year in naming rights, compared to $4 million in Jax. Plus he has a lease from the Hurricanes, regular Super Bowl rotation, and the Orange Bowl (College Football Playoffs).

Correct - that's the challenge here. The Gator Bowl is nothing compared to the Orange Bowl, and there isn't a major college team to share the space with here. And like mentioned, he's probably guaranteed 2-3 Super Bowls because of the work.

I think it's going to be tough since I do see the next stadium project being in the $150-$200 million range. It was $90 for the clubs, Daily's Place, and a few of the lighter things. Even if you call Daily's Place half of it, they spent $45 million on the clubs and a couple other things.

It's posted somewhere in the Jaguars thread, but Lamping gave a much longer, much more nuanced answer to the question in October right after Wembley fell through. Sentiment seemed to be that a new stadium didn't necessarily make sense in Jax. Seemed to be leaning much more into continuing upgrades.

My complaint with the experience is the product on the field. When ticket numbers inevitably drop next year, don't blame the venue.

Its not for lack of effort or backing on Shad's behalf, and I know Lamping has different priorities in organization, but the point remains that the team is 32-80 since Shad took over.  We're averaging less than 5 wins per year with one playoff showing in 7 years. Optically now is not the time to start a public dialogue over more taxpayer subsidies.

At some point Jacksonville will grow weary of Khan's and Lamping's veiled threats and blackmail. This whole story plant is about greasing the taxpayer for more "partnership".

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 10, 2019, 09:57:12 AM
What Miami did with their stadium will be the next major renovation for the stadium.

I am almost certain we would see something like that. Reconfiguring the seating capacity, adding the covers over the seating. And more premium seating.

And it will not be cheap.

Quote from: DrQue on January 10, 2019, 11:03:26 AM
My complaint with the experience is the product on the field. When ticket numbers inevitably drop next year, don't blame the venue.

Its not for lack of effort or backing on Shad's behalf, and I know Lamping has different priorities in organization, but the point remains that the team is 32-80 since Shad took over.  We're averaging less than 5 wins per year with one playoff showing in 7 years. Optically now is not the time to start a public dialogue over more taxpayer subsidies.

It's a re-building year(s).

Quote from: pierre on January 10, 2019, 11:40:28 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 10, 2019, 09:57:12 AM
What Miami did with their stadium will be the next major renovation for the stadium.

I am almost certain we would see something like that. Reconfiguring the seating capacity, adding the covers over the seating. And more premium seating.

And it will not be cheap.

The Miami stadium renovation cost $450 million.

I wouldn't support replacing the stadium, but I'd be ok with reducing and reconfiguring seating (67,000 is still too big to create genuine ticket demand in this market), adding some form of shade (August and September are miserable in the stadium), and additional additional concessions (it's pretty impossible to get food during halftime without missing the first few minutes of the third quarter).

Particularly if the Jags split the cost, like they've done in the past.

Would be a much better investment than spending $500 million to relocate the prison.

The monkey wrench is always going to be the Florida-Georgia game. Severely limits what we can do with the stadium long term if every single year, we need to squeeze 15,000 extra seats into the venue (at nearly $2 million in taxpayer expenses, annually).

New stadium talk is just all watercooler hot air, similar to the talk of building a new jail. Stadium renovations would make much more sense (not that I see anything wrong with the stadium).

"My complaint with the experience is the product on the field. When ticket numbers inevitably drop next year, don't blame the venue.

Its not for lack of effort or backing on Shad's behalf, and I know Lamping has different priorities in organization, but the point remains that the team is 32-80 since Shad took over.  We're averaging less than 5 wins per year with one playoff showing in 7 years. Optically now is not the time to start a public dialogue over more taxpayer subsidies. "

100% agree.  At these "press conferences" does anyone in attendance point that out to Lamping, Khan, or any other entity representing the team?

And next year looks like it will be a continuation of the losing we are unfortunately accustomed to.

Re-reading the article is mind bending.... Put a winner on the field guys!  Stop worrying about the stadium and focus on the team! You keep winning 5 games per year and no one will be IN the stadium!

Quote from: MusicMan on January 11, 2019, 08:12:52 AM
Re-reading the article is mind bending.... Put a winner on the field guys!  Stop worrying about the stadium and focus on the team! You keep winning 5 games per year and no one will be IN the stadium!

Lamping is not part of football operations. He has zero control over what happens on the field. He is just doing his job.

Hindsight's 20/20, but I said it last year, and I'll say it again this year.

Removing those tarps permanently was a big mistake.

The tarps weren't put up because the Jags were terrible and no one wanted to go to the games, but rather because the stadium was and is too large for a market our size.

Best things the Jags could do is continue to make improvements to the existing stadium to better protect fans from the elements and reduce capacity.

56,000 to 59,000 feels like a great sweet spot (Soldier Field in Chicago is only 61,500), for so many reasons:

1) You create a genuine demand for tickets that has never existed in Jacksonville aside from a few isolated games
2) You price out traveling fans and create more of a home field advantage (especially with a cover to amplify sound)
3) You always sell out, potentially have a waiting list for season tickets, and eliminate all talk of substandard attendance

Kneejerk reaction is that the Jags would never go for it because they'd be leaving money on the table, but the reality is, they could charge a lot more per ticket with a reduced capacity, and as the market grows and the Jags hopefully start winning consistently, you could start to think about things like limited PSLs to drive further revenue.

Never, ever agreed that the right reaction to a spike in demand at the end of last season was to flood a market our size with more supply.

Guaranteed we'll see Lamping at the next State of the Franchise lamenting the fact that our average ticket prices fell or stagnating, while ignoring the fact that that's how economics work when you offer unlimited supply.

I don't think it's something we need to jump into this year, or next year, or the year after, but if five years from now, well ahead of the lease expiring in 2029, we can work out an agreement with the Jags on the details of a major renovation, contingent on a 15+ year extension of the stadium lease, we save ourself a lot of stress by getting ahead of it.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 11, 2019, 09:59:09 AM
Hindsight's 20/20, but I said it last year, and I'll say it again this year.

Removing those tarps permanently was a big mistake.

The tarps weren't put up because the Jags were terrible and no one wanted to go to the games, but rather because the stadium was and is too large for a market our size.

Best things the Jags could do is continue to make improvements to the existing stadium to better protect fans from the elements and reduce capacity.

56,000 to 59,000 feels like a great sweet spot (Soldier Field in Chicago is only 61,500), for so many reasons:

1) You create a genuine demand for tickets that has never existed in Jacksonville aside from a few isolated games
2) You price out traveling fans and create more of a home field advantage (especially with a cover to amplify sound)
3) You always sell out, potentially have a waiting list for season tickets, and eliminate all talk of substandard attendance

Kneejerk reaction is that the Jags would never go for it because they'd be leaving money on the table, but the reality is, they could charge a lot more per ticket with a reduced capacity, and as the market grows and the Jags hopefully start winning consistently, you could start to think about things like limited PSLs to drive further revenue.

Never, ever agreed that the right reaction to a spike in demand at the end of last season was to flood a market our size with more supply.

Guaranteed we'll see Lamping at the next State of the Franchise lamenting the fact that our average ticket prices fell or stagnating, while ignoring the fact that that's how economics work when you offer unlimited supply.

I don't think it's something we need to jump into this year, or next year, or the year after, but if five years from now, well ahead of the lease expiring in 2029, we can work out an agreement with the Jags on the details of a major renovation, contingent on a 15+ year extension of the stadium lease, we save ourself a lot of stress by getting ahead of it.

The challenge is Florida/Georgia, where we have to have 82k seats. The more you yank out, the more you have to add temporarily, and it's getting expensive at present to add the number we already have to add.

Quote from: Steve on January 11, 2019, 11:08:45 AM

Quote from: KenFSU on January 11, 2019, 09:59:09 AM
Hindsight's 20/20, but I said it last year, and I'll say it again this year.

Removing those tarps permanently was a big mistake.

The tarps weren't put up because the Jags were terrible and no one wanted to go to the games, but rather because the stadium was and is too large for a market our size.

Best things the Jags could do is continue to make improvements to the existing stadium to better protect fans from the elements and reduce capacity.

56,000 to 59,000 feels like a great sweet spot (Soldier Field in Chicago is only 61,500), for so many reasons:

1) You create a genuine demand for tickets that has never existed in Jacksonville aside from a few isolated games
2) You price out traveling fans and create more of a home field advantage (especially with a cover to amplify sound)
3) You always sell out, potentially have a waiting list for season tickets, and eliminate all talk of substandard attendance

Kneejerk reaction is that the Jags would never go for it because they'd be leaving money on the table, but the reality is, they could charge a lot more per ticket with a reduced capacity, and as the market grows and the Jags hopefully start winning consistently, you could start to think about things like limited PSLs to drive further revenue.

Never, ever agreed that the right reaction to a spike in demand at the end of last season was to flood a market our size with more supply.

Guaranteed we'll see Lamping at the next State of the Franchise lamenting the fact that our average ticket prices fell or stagnating, while ignoring the fact that that's how economics work when you offer unlimited supply.

I don't think it's something we need to jump into this year, or next year, or the year after, but if five years from now, well ahead of the lease expiring in 2029, we can work out an agreement with the Jags on the details of a major renovation, contingent on a 15+ year extension of the stadium lease, we save ourself a lot of stress by getting ahead of it.

The challenge is Florida/Georgia, where we have to have 82k seats. The more you yank out, the more you have to add temporarily, and it's getting expensive at present to add the number we already have to add.

In principle, I agree with KenFSU, but Steve has an excellent point, we have to be able to get 82k bodies into the stadium if we want to keep the FL/GA game.  It may come to a point where the City will have to choose between the Jaguars and the Gators/Bulldogs.  How would reduced capacity, to the 60k or less range, affect efforts to attract other college games?  Watching the Gator Bowl on TV, with all the empty seats, the smaller capacity would be a good thing.

^Personally, I'd rather do the modern NFL experience really, really well in Jacksonville and keep the Jags happy than maintain a 67k-82k stadium in hopes of keeping Florida/Georgia or attracting other big ticket games. I'd rather not have to make the choice - and I'd hope that a state-of-the-art, reduced capacity stadium that could accomodate maybe 70k with standing room and temporary seating, along with the new entertainment complex and hotel next door, would be enough to keep the game in Jacksonville.

Legit 80% of the perception problems the Jaguars have had in terms of attendance, and blackouts, and potential relocation resulted from the city's decision to build the new Jaguars stadium to Florida-Georgia scale back in 1993. Wayne Weaver wanted a much smaller stadium. That one decision changed the narrative for decades to come from "the Jags' loyal fan base is consistently selling out a 60,000 seat stadium" to "the Jags only drew 60k and are blacked out again - look at all the empty seats!"

If you look at stadium size per capita across all NFL MSAs, this market should realistically only be able to handle a 30,000 seat stadium at standard NFL ticket prices (hence why our tickets are so cheap, relative the rest of the league).

I'd argue that appeasing the Jags and securing the NFL here through the 2040s at least has to supercede keeping a single college game here. Particularly with how much the Jags are pumping into the community versus Florida/Georgia.

Hate that it's an NFL reality that every city has to constantly keep up with the Joneses in terms of stadiums, but if we can head off new stadium talk and start mutually agreeing on renovation plans now that will result in a reasonable extension of the stadium lease in 2029, might as well start having those talks. Particularly if Khan's grand plans for Lot J and the Shipyards should, in theory, provide a nice windfall to our bed taxes to help finance the next round of stadium work.

And when you add the cover to the stadium, get rid of the Bud Zone. Might be an unpopular opinion, but if you want the seats full, you can't give thousands of people an air-conditioned lounge with a better view of the game to hang out in.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 11, 2019, 12:04:47 PM
I'd argue that appeasing the Jags and securing the NFL here through the 2040s at least has to supercede keeping a single college game here. Particularly with how much the Jags are pumping into the community versus Florida/Georgia.

I feel like from an economic development standpoint, it's like the Jaguars are water and Florida/Georgia is food. Of the two water is more important, but the decision sucks. The problem is they're already adding about as many seats as could be added (part of the reason the pool deck is mostly concrete with things that can be removed; it provides a flat platform), without a pretty major wholesale change.

Been saying this for years...  8)

Quoteget rid of the Bud Zone. Might be an unpopular opinion, but if you want the seats full, you can't give thousands of people an air-conditioned lounge with a better view of the game to hang out in.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 11, 2019, 09:59:09 AM

56,000 to 59,000 feels like a great sweet spot (Soldier Field in Chicago is only 61,500), for so many reasons:

That seems to be the trend, exceptions like Jerry World notwithstanding.  The proposed replacement stadium for Washington is only 60,000 or so, and not too long ago they had little trouble selling out a 90,000 seat venue.

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 10, 2019, 11:16:12 AM
At some point Jacksonville will grow weary of Khan's and Lamping's veiled threats and blackmail. This whole story plant is about greasing the taxpayer for more "partnership".

I'm already there.  I will volunteer to help them load the moving van for London.  The two happiest days in Jax history #1 The day the Jags arrived.  #2 The day the Jags leave.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on January 11, 2019, 12:33:11 PM
The proposed replacement stadium for Washington is only 60,000 or so, and not too long ago they had little trouble selling out a 90,000 seat venue.

It's been a while. They have been removing seats for years and still cannot sell out.

Who cares if there are empty seats. The whole sellout thing was a scam by the NFL to threaten cities with blackouts so that games looked slightly better on TV. Now that that nonsense is in the past, it really doesn't matter.

Quote from: Kerry on January 11, 2019, 12:33:24 PM

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 10, 2019, 11:16:12 AM
At some point Jacksonville will grow weary of Khan's and Lamping's veiled threats and blackmail. This whole story plant is about greasing the taxpayer for more "partnership".

I'm already there.  I will volunteer to help them load the moving van for London.  The two happiest days in Jax history #1 The day the Jags arrived.  #2 The day the Jags leave.

I always appreciate Kerry's view of the world.  I like a guy whose face would break if he cracked a smile. I want the Jags to stay, but it does not go without notice that Khan has not done anything but tease for years.  Except Daily's, which of course, is his own profit center.  And he is holding the city, the state, and all of us hostage over the ramps.  The ramps are the equivalent of Trump's wall.

1.  For Florida -Georgia fewer seats works fine, just charge more!  You will always find 60,000 or so Dawgs and Gators who will pay whatever the hell the ticket price is.

2. Khan has supposedly made $1.2 billion in equity owning what is arguably one of the 5 waekest franchises in the NFL.  Do fannies in seats really matter?

Quote from: MusicMan on January 11, 2019, 04:44:23 PM
2. Khan has supposedly made $1.2 billion in equity owning what is arguably one of the 5 waekest franchises in the NFL.  Do fannies in seats really matter?

In these "partnerships" Khan keeps talking about, does the City get any of that $1.2 billion?

Quote from: Kerry on January 11, 2019, 04:55:38 PMIn these "partnerships" Khan keeps talking about, does the City get any of that $1.2 billion?

The $1.2 billion appreciation, driven by massive increases in television deals by the NFL, is only value on paper unless Khan sells all or part of the franchise.

In reality, the Jags are probably only clearing about $20 million in profits per season.

The numbers aren't public, except for Green Bay, which is publicly owned ($39 million in profit, around 9th in the league, last year).

Still a pretty significant annual profit, obviously, but it's not the hundreds of millions that people assume.

Quote from: MusicMan on January 11, 2019, 04:44:23 PMDo fannies in seats really matter?

Absolutely. Particularly in the NFL, where ticket revenue from each franchise gets pooled and shared equally amongst all teams. Less ticket revenue = more pressure from the rest of the league to increase revenues through any means possible.

Based on comments from friends and family, who are huge Jags fans, this idea is dead on arrival.

^ Which idea is DOA? There are a few floating around: brand new stadium, putting a roof/sunshade on the existing one, renovating the existing stadium - with or without reducing capacity, and maybe more.

All of the above.  The consensus is, "He has billions - pay for it himself."

not sure if this is a "secret of the locals", but buffalos wild wings (regulars call it "BW3", pronounced bee-double-u-threes) shows the jaguars football contests on whoppers of tv screens in the town center. it's a neat place to cheer on the home team with other football fanatics without having to treck downtown to the stadium. and the drumsticks are to die for!  :o :o :o :o :o

Quote from: Glenn VL on January 12, 2019, 09:49:18 PM
not sure if this is a "secret of the locals", but buffalos wild wings (regulars call it "BW3", pronounced bee-double-u-threes) shows the jaguars football contests on whoppers of tv screens in the town center. it's a neat place to cheer on the home team with other football fanatics without having to treck downtown to the stadium. and the drumsticks are to die for!  :o :o :o :o :o

Thanks for the pro tip!

It's not a local secret, Buffalo Wild Wings is a national chain. You don't even have to drive to Town Center to find one locally. There's six of them, including another Southside location at Avenues Mall.

^But do all six have whoppers of TV screens and drumsticks?

I hope that if the Jags do build a new stadium they build one that will make the place even louder.  Steeper angles would give the home team an advantage.  Sun shades would be nice too.  It's too hot in early season, especially on the eastside.

Glenn!
A nation turns it's lonely eyes to you.

Quote from: Kerry on January 12, 2019, 06:20:32 PM
All of the above.  The consensus is, "He has billions - pay for it himself."

What consensus? I'd say this: if he wants a new stadium for the ground up then yes. If he wants to renovate another area of the stadium (Press Areas, Suites, etc.) and he presented a cost sharing plan that made sense, then I'm open to the discussion.

Quote from: Steve on January 14, 2019, 07:23:56 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 12, 2019, 06:20:32 PM
All of the above.  The consensus is, "He has billions - pay for it himself."

What consensus?

That of his friends and family.

Quote from: Steve on January 14, 2019, 07:23:56 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 12, 2019, 06:20:32 PM
All of the above.  The consensus is, "He has billions - pay for it himself."

What consensus? I'd say this: if he wants a new stadium for the ground up then yes. If he wants to renovate another area of the stadium (Press Areas, Suites, etc.) and he presented a cost sharing plan that made sense, then I'm open to the discussion.

Cost sharing plan?  Screw that - how about some profit sharing.

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 09:46:06 AM

Quote from: Steve on January 14, 2019, 07:23:56 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 12, 2019, 06:20:32 PM
All of the above.  The consensus is, "He has billions - pay for it himself."

What consensus? I'd say this: if he wants a new stadium for the ground up then yes. If he wants to renovate another area of the stadium (Press Areas, Suites, etc.) and he presented a cost sharing plan that made sense, then I'm open to the discussion.

Cost sharing plan?  Screw that - how about some profit sharing.

Sure, the city had revenue streams tied to the Jaguars and those should continue or be enhanced.

The year 2030 isn't that far away.

Why 2030?

That's the year the Jaguars franchise lease ends with the stadium. Should they pick up and move beforehand, that would cost the franchise millions of dollars. I don't think it is in their plans unless the COJ does not support funding completely but that would be the big mistake.

Lamping/Khan have publicly addressed the concerns of the current stadium and have shared their vision which they have been doing for years on the needs to improve the stadium. If nothing is done, in the year 2030, the stadium will be roughly 35-36 years of age which just additions to the north and south end zone, club renovations and video boards to name a few renovations over the years. 

But when looking at other stadiums, significant renovations have been done to extend the life of a stadium:
Arrowhead (KC), Hard Rock (MIA), Mercedes Benz (NO). All were built in the mid-70s/80s.  These renos have added life, value and additional marquee sporting events.

I personally think the COJ and the Jags partner to do extensive renovations to appease the fans needs and extend the life of the stadium for another 15+ years. Extensive in the sense that it would be done over multiple years replacing seats, plumbing/restrooms, concessions, concourse, perimeter, etc. 

A new stadium just doesn't seem to be something that COJ can afford when looking at the most recent stadium builds that cost over $1B.

I'm very curious to see if other stadiums built around the time the Jaguars stadium was built will get either a new stadium or renovations. Those stadiums are M&T Bank (BAL), Raymond James (TB), Nissan Stadium (Nash), FedEx (DC) & First Energy (CLE).

The stadium in Jacksonville wasn't "built" when the other stated stadiums were.  It's actually a re-build of the old municipal stadium or Gator Bowl.

Quote from: Kerry on January 12, 2019, 12:13:56 PM
Based on comments from friends and family, who are huge Jags fans, this idea is dead on arrival.

Never go full Pauline Kael

Khan doesn't care if it costs $100 million to leave Jax.  The team will instantly be worth billions more in London.  Revenue streams from the Jags are currently rent and concessions, we need to tap into the real money - team value.  Khan preaches about partnerships - put his money where his mouth is and give the City 10% of the profit when he eventually sells the team.

Quote from: Snaketoz on January 14, 2019, 10:27:28 AM
The stadium in Jacksonville wasn't "built" when the other stated stadiums were.  It's actually a re-build of the old municipal stadium or Gator Bowl.

The only part that was left was the upper deck of the west side of the stadium which included the ramps.  The rest was built from the ground up.

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 11:34:04 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on January 14, 2019, 10:27:28 AM
The stadium in Jacksonville wasn't "built" when the other stated stadiums were.  It's actually a re-build of the old municipal stadium or Gator Bowl.

The only part that was left was the upper deck of the west side of the stadium which included the ramps.  The rest was built from the ground up.

Yep, it was practically a total rebuild.

Here she is a year before the Jags first season.

(https://snag.gy/WtVnjL.jpg)

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:26:38 AM
Khan doesn't care if it costs $100 million to leave Jax.  The team will instantly be worth billions more in London.  Revenue streams from the Jags are currently rent and concessions, we need to tap into the real money - team value.  Khan preaches about partnerships - put his money where his mouth is and give the City 10% of the profit when he eventually sells the team.

1. He's not going to sell the team. The enterprise value of the franchise has increased two/three fold for him since he bought it. Would be foolish for him to do that.
    1b. The monetary value of him breaking the lease for say $100 mil like you stated, is probably not a wise business decision either. If it was $10 mil than yeah, he could break it.
2. London is such a logistical nightmare at the moment and until they can work with the league on finances, scheduling, facilites, etc. it is never happening.
    2b. Consider this, the tax rate is higher in the UK than the US, so players would be giving up 10-15% of their paycheck to UK taxes since they are playing in London. What player would want that? Lose out on 10-15% of money especially with how short player's careers are in the NFL.
    2c. Wembley, which is the holy sports mecca of stadiums in the UK, likes hosting a few games. But when you think of the grand scheme of events they host, they would prefer a few NFL games rather than 8 or more. Soccer is what it's built for. Worldwide concerts acts is second. Khan did make an attempt to purchase it, and ultimately didn't happen as there was a strong opposition by the FA.
3. The Jags have a shared model of revenue with the city from concessions, tax surcharge on tickets, parking (most are city owned surface lots, managed by the Jaguars), all the hotels booked for the weekend from fans attending the game.  All of this generates a good amount of revenue for the city.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 14, 2019, 11:51:32 AM

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 11:34:04 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on January 14, 2019, 10:27:28 AM
The stadium in Jacksonville wasn't "built" when the other stated stadiums were.  It's actually a re-build of the old municipal stadium or Gator Bowl.

The only part that was left was the upper deck of the west side of the stadium which included the ramps.  The rest was built from the ground up.

Yep, it was practically a total rebuild.

Here she is a year before the Jags first season.

(https://snag.gy/WtVnjL.jpg)

Upper Deck only bud.
(http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4897/46016867414_7ab8d00d54.jpg)

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 11:53:01 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:26:38 AM
Khan doesn't care if it costs $100 million to leave Jax.  The team will instantly be worth billions more in London.  Revenue streams from the Jags are currently rent and concessions, we need to tap into the real money - team value.  Khan preaches about partnerships - put his money where his mouth is and give the City 10% of the profit when he eventually sells the team.

1. He's not going to sell the team. The enterprise value of the franchise has increased two/three fold for him since he bought it. Would be foolish for him to do that.
    1b. The monetary value of him breaking the lease for say $100 mil like you stated, is probably not a wise business decision either. If it was $10 mil than yeah, he could break it.
2. London is such a logistical nightmare at the moment and until they can work with the league on finances, scheduling, facilites, etc. it is never happening.
    2b. Consider this, the tax rate is higher in the UK than the US, so players would be giving up 10-15% of their paycheck to UK taxes since they are playing in London. What player would want that? Lose out on 10-15% of money especially with how short player's careers are in the NFL.
    2c. Wembley, which is the holy sports mecca of stadiums in the UK, likes hosting a few games. But when you think of the grand scheme of events they host, they would prefer a few NFL games rather than 8 or more. Soccer is what it's built for. Worldwide concerts acts is second. Khan did make an attempt to purchase it, and ultimately didn't happen as there was a strong opposition by the FA.
3. The Jags have a shared model of revenue with the city from concessions, tax surcharge on tickets, parking (most are city owned surface lots, managed by the Jaguars), all the hotels booked for the weekend from fans attending the game.  All of this generates a good amount of revenue for the city.

Revenue means squat.  The City should make a profit from the stadium.  Of course, if stadium ownership was profitable in Jax Khan would have already built his own or offered to buy the current one.

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 12:24:03 PM

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 11:53:01 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:26:38 AM
Khan doesn't care if it costs $100 million to leave Jax.  The team will instantly be worth billions more in London.  Revenue streams from the Jags are currently rent and concessions, we need to tap into the real money - team value.  Khan preaches about partnerships - put his money where his mouth is and give the City 10% of the profit when he eventually sells the team.

1. He's not going to sell the team. The enterprise value of the franchise has increased two/three fold for him since he bought it. Would be foolish for him to do that.
    1b. The monetary value of him breaking the lease for say $100 mil like you stated, is probably not a wise business decision either. If it was $10 mil than yeah, he could break it.
2. London is such a logistical nightmare at the moment and until they can work with the league on finances, scheduling, facilites, etc. it is never happening.
    2b. Consider this, the tax rate is higher in the UK than the US, so players would be giving up 10-15% of their paycheck to UK taxes since they are playing in London. What player would want that? Lose out on 10-15% of money especially with how short player's careers are in the NFL.
    2c. Wembley, which is the holy sports mecca of stadiums in the UK, likes hosting a few games. But when you think of the grand scheme of events they host, they would prefer a few NFL games rather than 8 or more. Soccer is what it's built for. Worldwide concerts acts is second. Khan did make an attempt to purchase it, and ultimately didn't happen as there was a strong opposition by the FA.
3. The Jags have a shared model of revenue with the city from concessions, tax surcharge on tickets, parking (most are city owned surface lots, managed by the Jaguars), all the hotels booked for the weekend from fans attending the game.  All of this generates a good amount of revenue for the city.

Revenue means squat.  The City should make a profit from the stadium.  Of course, if stadium ownership was profitable in Jax Khan would have already built his own or offered to buy the current one.

Just like Chesapeake Energy Arena in OKC throws off a massive profit, right Comrade?

Don't have the actual numbers at hand... but Jags-related rent and ticket/concession revenues amounts to somewhere around $14mm/year... and about $2mm 'profit' gets directed back into the stadium's maintenance fund each year.

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 12:03:55 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on January 14, 2019, 11:51:32 AM

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 11:34:04 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on January 14, 2019, 10:27:28 AM
The stadium in Jacksonville wasn't "built" when the other stated stadiums were.  It's actually a re-build of the old municipal stadium or Gator Bowl.

The only part that was left was the upper deck of the west side of the stadium which included the ramps.  The rest was built from the ground up.

Yep, it was practically a total rebuild.

Here she is a year before the Jags first season.

(https://snag.gy/WtVnjL.jpg)

Upper Deck only bud.
(http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4897/46016867414_7ab8d00d54.jpg)

Wow, great pic!

Via Times Union archives

(https://www.jacksonville.com/storyimage/LK/20131201/SPORTS/801242013/AR/0/AR-801242013.jpg)

There's a great photo at Russ Doe's right around the corner from the stadium of a sunset and the sun is shining through the skeleton of the upper deck left standing.  That's if you can find the photo at his establishment which he has tons of framed photos from over the years.

Quote from: fieldafm on January 14, 2019, 12:42:45 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 12:24:03 PM

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 11:53:01 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:26:38 AM
Khan doesn't care if it costs $100 million to leave Jax.  The team will instantly be worth billions more in London.  Revenue streams from the Jags are currently rent and concessions, we need to tap into the real money - team value.  Khan preaches about partnerships - put his money where his mouth is and give the City 10% of the profit when he eventually sells the team.

Just like Chesapeake Energy Arena in OKC throws off a massive profit, right Comrade?

Don't have the actual numbers at hand... but Jags-related rent and ticket/concession revenues amounts to somewhere around $14mm/year... and about $2mm 'profit' gets directed back into the stadium's maintenance fund each year.

I don't know the profitability of Chesapeake Arena.
However, it wasn't built for the Thunder.  It opened 6 years BEFORE the Thunder came to Oklahoma City.  There was an expansion in 2008 that was basically a give away to the team but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

And Fairfield Stadium/Gator Bowl/TIAA Bank Field has been around in some form since the 1920's (preceding the Jaguars by almost two lifetimes), so what's your point? (insert half-baked Jacksonville sucks rant here)

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 11:34:04 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on January 14, 2019, 10:27:28 AM
The stadium in Jacksonville wasn't "built" when the other stated stadiums were.  It's actually a re-build of the old municipal stadium or Gator Bowl.

The only part that was left was the upper deck of the west side of the stadium which included the ramps.  The rest was built from the ground up.

Did you forget about the land the stadium sits on?  Parking lots, infrastructure, etc.?  Still much cheaper than most of the other cities had to shell out.

Quote from: Kerry on January 11, 2019, 12:33:24 PM

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 10, 2019, 11:16:12 AM
At some point Jacksonville will grow weary of Khan's and Lamping's veiled threats and blackmail. This whole story plant is about greasing the taxpayer for more "partnership".

I'm already there.  I will volunteer to help them load the moving van for London.  The two happiest days in Jax history #1 The day the Jags arrived.  #2 The day the Jags leave.

Placing a permanent NFL franchise in London is no more logistically feasible than moving said franchise there in a van.

Quote from: JBTripper on January 14, 2019, 02:46:31 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 11, 2019, 12:33:24 PM

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 10, 2019, 11:16:12 AM
At some point Jacksonville will grow weary of Khan's and Lamping's veiled threats and blackmail. This whole story plant is about greasing the taxpayer for more "partnership".

I'm already there.  I will volunteer to help them load the moving van for London.  The two happiest days in Jax history #1 The day the Jags arrived.  #2 The day the Jags leave.

Placing a permanent NFL franchise in London is no more logistically feasible than moving said franchise there in a van.

Seriously. Jaguars or someone else, there are a ton of things that have to be worked out prior to a team going over there.

Quote from: fieldafm on January 14, 2019, 02:40:06 PM
And Fairfield Stadium/Gator Bowl/TIAA Bank Field has been around in some form since the 1920's (preceding the Jaguars by almost two lifetimes), so what's your point? (insert half-baked Jacksonville sucks rant here)

Uggh.  The Gator Bowl was torn down with the exception of one part and rebuilt for the Jags.  The Thunder moved into an existing facility.  That was the only point.

The Thunder moved into a fairly new arena (opened 2002) built to NBA standards and upgraded in 2007 in preparation for the Thunder.

Quote from: Snaketoz on January 14, 2019, 02:45:04 PM

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 14, 2019, 11:34:04 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on January 14, 2019, 10:27:28 AM
The stadium in Jacksonville wasn't "built" when the other stated stadiums were.  It's actually a re-build of the old municipal stadium or Gator Bowl.

The only part that was left was the upper deck of the west side of the stadium which included the ramps.  The rest was built from the ground up.

Did you forget about the land the stadium sits on?  Parking lots, infrastructure, etc.?  Still much cheaper than most of the other cities had to shell out.

And let's also not forget that, to the best of my knowledge, we've spent very little - if any - money from the general fund on stadium improvements. It's all come from the bed tax, which has long-been legally committed to the stadium complex, long before Shad Khan purchased the team.

Relevant article from 2014:

Quotehttps://www.jacksonville.com/sports/football/jaguars/2013-12-01/story/rebuilding-old-gator-bowl-turned-out-be-bargain-number

Rebuilding old Gator Bowl turned out to be bargain; number of seats still an issue

Former Jacksonville mayor Jake Godbold still remembers the message from the late Bob Irsay when the Baltimore Colts owner made his celebrated helicopter arrival at the old Gator Bowl in 1979.

"He put his big arms around me and said, 'Mayor, let me tell you something. Before you get a team, tear this monster down and start over again,' ″ Godbold remembers.

The message was simple for Jacksonville: No new stadium, no NFL team.

Related: Twenty years ago, how upstart Jacksonville won an NFL franchise

Related: Jaguars face new challenge after 20 years: Sustainability

City leaders listened. While the stadium wasn't completely torn down - the upper deck of the old Gator Bowl was preserved - the deal to build what is now called EverBank Field for $121 million kept Jacksonville in the expansion race. Twenty years ago, and 14 years after Irsay's helicopter visit, Jacksonville was awarded an NFL franchise on Nov. 30, 1993.

By today's standards, in the era of billion-dollar price tags for new stadiums, rebuilding the Gator Bowl was a bargain.

In Cleveland, they are spending $120 million on improvements for a stadium that opened in 1999.

And the Jacksonville City Council recently approved a deal to add $63 million in improvements to EverBank Field, including the world's largest scoreboards.

It's the second $63 million upgrade to the stadium since it was built. The first was for the Super Bowl in 1994 so by next year, the stadium that cost $121 million to build will have $126 million in upgrades. And that doesn't count the $10 million owner Shad Khan spent upgrading the interior of the stadium, including the locker, weight and training rooms. Khan is also kicking in $20 million for the current upgrade.

Still, 20 years ago, spending $121 million on building the stadium - with the Jaguars picking up cost overruns - was not an easy sell.

The deal and Jacksonville's NFL dream almost died when team owner Wayne Weaver rejected the $112 million project and pulled out on July 21, 1993.

"The deal fell apart over the cost of the stadium,″ said Carl Cannon, the former Times-Union publisher who helped get the two sides together and also led the club seat ticket-selling campaign that helped put Jacksonville over the top.

About a month later, the new deal was crafted and approved by the City Council by a 14-4 vote.

In retrospect, though, the stadium was a double-edged sword.

The 76,766 permanent seats were too many for an NFL team in a small market, especially after the novelty wore off and the Jaguars' playoff run of the early years ended.

The old Gator Bowl had more than 80,000 seats and a similar size stadium was necessary to keep the Florida-Georgia college football game in Jacksonville. The new stadium was built with temporary seating to boost capacity to about 82,000.

The large capacity helped the city host a Super Bowl and has allowed the city to bid for the national championship college football game in 2016 and 2017.

It also made the Jaguars a very lucrative franchise at the beginning because the stadium had 10,000 club seats, a premium concept that was just invented a decade earlier in Miami.

With most of the teams still playing in old stadiums that didn't have club seats, the Jaguars became the second-highest revenue team in the league.

But trying to sell that many tickets has been a challenge for the franchise over the years.

With so many tickets available, fans know they can give up their season tickets when the team is losing and then buy them again if the team starts winning. In the ticket-selling business, it's called churn.

Former owner Wayne Weaver tried all kinds of ways to sell tickets, including having Winn-Dixie buy unsold tickets and give them away, until he decided to cover up almost 10,000 seats to lower the capacity to 67,246.

That made it easier to avoid television blackouts, but it also hurt the image of the team and the city.

"The biggest negative of having too many seats is that the national media jumped all over us for covering up seats,″ said Gator Bowl president Rick Catlett, who played a key role in helping the city land an NFL franchise. "It galvanized the national press to point at Jacksonville, even though three or four other teams were having a harder time selling tickets.″

The new stadium also has a no-frills look and a generic feel. Some of the newer stadiums feature such attractions as the lighthouse in New England and the pirate ship in Tampa Bay.

Jaguars president Mark Lamping said the stadium lacks a specific personality and adds, "There's nothing in the stadium that tells you that you are a beautiful city with so much to offer.″

The newest upgrades, expected to be completed in time for the 2014 NFL season, will give the stadium a wow factor. The last round of upgrades included state-of-the-art scoreboards that are now obsolete and will be replaced by the two biggest scoreboards of their kind in the world.

To help give the stadium a Jacksonville feel, about 7,000 permanent seats will be taken out to make room for a 42,000-square-foot fan zone in the north end zone that will include water features.

Lamping said those water features, which could include fountains and palm trees, haven't been designed yet, but will emphasize that Jacksonville has the ocean, beaches and the St. Johns River. It's also likely to look good on television.

Taking out the 7,000 seats - although the city will have to pay an estimated $376,000 to put in temporary seating each year for the Florida-Georgia game - will cut down on the number of tarps and may do away with them altogether.

These new features will give the stadium a different look, though maintaining a stadium never ends. Funds from a hotel bed tax are committed to the stadium, so future improvements are expected to be financed without dipping into the general fund.

"If you keep maintaining it, it will be in good shape for a long time,″ Catlett said.

QuoteIt's all come from the bed tax, which has long-been legally committed to the stadium complex, long before Shad Khan purchased the team.

Initially only 1/3 of the Bed Tax was dedicated to the stadium. It is 2/3 or 3/3 now.  I don't remember exactly when it changed.   

^2/3.

A third to pay down the original bonds and a third for maintenance and improvements.

That extra third was added in 2009 once the Prime Osborne was paid off.

The remaining third goes to Visit Jacksonville.

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 03:51:14 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on January 14, 2019, 02:40:06 PM
And Fairfield Stadium/Gator Bowl/TIAA Bank Field has been around in some form since the 1920's (preceding the Jaguars by almost two lifetimes), so what's your point? (insert half-baked Jacksonville sucks rant here)

Uggh.  The Gator Bowl was torn down with the exception of one part and rebuilt for the Jags.  The Thunder moved into an existing facility.  That was the only point.

Lake said it, but it's worth saying again: it was a building built to NBA standards with the intent of luring a team. There's a reason they pushed hard for (and got) the opportunity to house the Pelicans (then the Hornets) after Katrina.

Then when the Sonics were looking to move, the Sonics owners convinced OKC to renovate the building for them.

When is the stadium debt expected to be paid off?

Quote from: Steve on January 14, 2019, 05:59:42 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 03:51:14 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on January 14, 2019, 02:40:06 PM
And Fairfield Stadium/Gator Bowl/TIAA Bank Field has been around in some form since the 1920's (preceding the Jaguars by almost two lifetimes), so what's your point? (insert half-baked Jacksonville sucks rant here)

Uggh.  The Gator Bowl was torn down with the exception of one part and rebuilt for the Jags.  The Thunder moved into an existing facility.  That was the only point.

Lake said it, but it's worth saying again: it was a building built to NBA standards with the intent of luring a team. There's a reason they pushed hard for (and got) the opportunity to house the Pelicans (then the Hornets) after Katrina.

Then when the Sonics were looking to move, the Sonics owners convinced OKC to renovate the building for them.

For the record, I didn't bring up the Thunder.  I just responded to a comment about their arena.

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 06:06:57 PM
When is the stadium debt expected to be paid off?

2031-ish.

Thanks.

Since it was all debt-financed anyone know what the total price tag is expected to be?

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 06:11:08 PM

Quote from: Steve on January 14, 2019, 05:59:42 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 03:51:14 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on January 14, 2019, 02:40:06 PM
And Fairfield Stadium/Gator Bowl/TIAA Bank Field has been around in some form since the 1920's (preceding the Jaguars by almost two lifetimes), so what's your point? (insert half-baked Jacksonville sucks rant here)

Uggh.  The Gator Bowl was torn down with the exception of one part and rebuilt for the Jags.  The Thunder moved into an existing facility.  That was the only point.

Lake said it, but it's worth saying again: it was a building built to NBA standards with the intent of luring a team. There's a reason they pushed hard for (and got) the opportunity to house the Pelicans (then the Hornets) after Katrina.

Then when the Sonics were looking to move, the Sonics owners convinced OKC to renovate the building for them.

For the record, I didn't bring up the Thunder.  I just responded to a comment about their arena.

The thing is....I don't think the Thunder situation is bad for OKC. I think that it's worked out for them.

Honestly - I think the NBA would have been a much better fit for Jax.

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:40:02 PM
Honestly - I think the NBA would have been a much better fit for Jax.

In what way?

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:40:02 PM
Honestly - I think the NBA would have been a much better fit for Jax.

Quote from: Tacachale on January 14, 2019, 11:54:11 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:40:02 PM
Honestly - I think the NBA would have been a much better fit for Jax.

In what way?

I would like to hear that rational as well

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:40:02 PM
Honestly - I think the NBA would have been a much better fit for Jax.

In some ways I can see that. It's hard to build an entertainment district around 10 days a year. A little easier in basketball and hockey where it's around 40, and the people demand isn't overwhelming like filling the stadium.

But, with an NBA Team 2 hours away it wasn't happening. And now it definitely won't happen.

Quote from: Kerry on January 14, 2019, 11:40:02 PM
Honestly - I think the NBA would have been a much better fit for Jax.

The sport with the highest average ticket price? No.

Plus Jax isn't exactly in the middle of nowhere. The Magic are only two hours away.

As for building an entertainment district, you can't help but struggle to build one a mile away from anything else, while also razing most of the buildings that would have been suitable for restaurants, bars, clubs, etc.

Me too!

More home games
Less seats
Cheaper tickets
Smaller stadium requirements
Easier to find corporate sponsors
Better international presence
Better TV exposure for the City

And that is just off the top of my head.

The Magic being 2 hours away is meaningless.  The Mavs cried foul when the Thunder moved (2.5 hours away).  The NBA can function successfully with a smaller fan base which is why in several cities the NBA is the only game in town.

Portland
OKC
Sacramento
Salt Lake City
San Antonio
Memphis
Orlando

Anyhow, the NBA isn't coming to Jax.  Mayor Brown looked into it and the answer was No.

Quote from: Kerry on January 15, 2019, 10:03:26 AM
More home games
Less seats
Cheaper tickets
Smaller stadium requirements
Easier to find corporate sponsors
Better international presence
Better TV exposure for the City

And that is just off the top of my head.

The Magic being 2 hours away is meaningless.  The Mavs cried foul when the Thunder moved (2.5 hours away).  The NBA can function successfully with a smaller fan base which is why in several cities the NBA is the only game in town.

Portland
OKC
Sacramento
Salt Lake City
San Antonio
Memphis
Orlando

Anyhow, the NBA isn't coming to Jax.  Mayor Brown looked into it and the answer was No.

*Jacksonville has a long history of football
*Jacksonville has no history of supporting basketball

More home games-correct
Less seats-correct
Cheaper tickets-incorrect. NBA is generally more expensive.
Smaller stadium requirements-correct but the same as 2
Easier to find corporate sponsors-firmly disagree. NFL is far easier because of TV ratings.
Better international presence-in Asia yes. Everywhere else it's on par with the NFL
Better TV exposure for the City-not even close to true. NFL is WAY stronger in TV, particularly for smaller market teams.

Quote
The Magic being 2 hours away is meaningless.  The Mavs cried foul when the Thunder moved (2.5 hours away).

That works because of the size of the DFW market. Having two smaller markets near each other would make it tough.

Quote
The NBA can function successfully with a smaller fan base which is why in several cities the NBA is the only game in town.

Portland
OKC
Sacramento
Salt Lake City
San Antonio
Memphis
Orlando

No argument there.

Quote
Anyhow, the NBA isn't coming to Jax.  Mayor Brown looked into it and the answer was No.

Correct-if we didn't have a team then I could see it.

Quote from: Kerry on January 15, 2019, 10:03:26 AM
The Magic being 2 hours away is meaningless.  The Mavs cried foul when the Thunder moved (2.5 hours away).

Oh, it matters. Take a look at the market sizes. A NBA team in Jax would be a huge failure. However, the NBA already knows this so there's no chance at it happening.

Quote from: Steve on January 15, 2019, 10:30:57 AMLess seats-correct

Less seats, yes, but fewer tickets, no.

Bare minimun for an NBA arena is 17,000.

Multiply that by 41 regular season games, and the market needs to absorb about 700,000 tickets annually.

TIAA Bank is currently configured for 67,000 for Jaguars games.

Multiply that by 8 regular season games (we'll ignore London), and the market only needs to absorb 536,000 tickets annually.

So, in reality, we'd need to move 30% more tickets annually, in less desirable conditions (Sunday afternoon games vs. weeknights). It's already a minor miracle we're moving as many NFL tickets as we do in a city this size.

NFL tickets tend to run more expensive than NBA tickets, particularly in smaller markets, so the actual local spend for NFL & NBA tickets might even out, but then you'd also need to throw in parking and concessions for an additional 31 games.

In terms of what the market can and will support, the NFL is a better fit for Jacksonville. We've got a 100+ year history of supporting football. Not sure we're necessarily a basketball city.

Years ago, before the London thing came around and the Jags weren't exactly packing the stadium, I kind of loved the idea of playing one Jaguars preseason game in Orlando each year in exchange for the Magic playing a handful of home games in Jacksonville. Seems like it would mutually benefit both organizations and create a lot of new regional fans for both teams. Would never happen, but I think it's a win-win.

I don't think we will see any relocations for the foreseeable future.

The three recent lots - Oakland, St. Louis and San Diego have had a range of problems - legal, fan attendance, teams playing in dilapidated stadiums. The league needs to go through a period of stability now.

Additionally, the NFL needs to be careful, because if they keep forcing moves, then how the hell can they convince cities to give up public money when theres every chance the team could be away 25 years later?

I'd say the end game is just ongoing renovations. The stadium is in a good downtown location as well. Why bother with projects like Lot J also if you plan to shift the team in 10 years?

The NFL like Jacksonville a lot more than people realise because being a town with just one pro sports team its much easier to access public and corporate money as opposed to cities with multiple teams where all of that is divided. Thats why the NBA like a lot of the aforementioned smaller one team markets.

Forget the NBA btw.

And I'm considered the negative one who doesn't think Jax is capable of anything.  Go figure.

I wouldn't call market based reality a negative. Perhaps Jax's ability to support more professional sports teams changes down the road with additional growth. In the meantime, we'll be fine.

If lot J moves forward, and I am pretty sure it will, then I don't see them ever building a completely new stadium, remodel is the only option.  Without Lot J, we could build a stadium on lot J, M, N and while construction is happening we could play in the current stadium.  If they fill lot J, we would have no where to build a new stadium, except on the existing footprint.  That would mean we would be without a stadium for 2-5 years.

Plus daily's place integrates so well into the stadium, I think several more major remodels will have to be the plan moving forward.

I don't see a new stadium (and the few billion price tag attached) ever being a reality, regardless of Lot J.

They will follow the Miami model. A roof over the seats added. Adding things like field level suites to the current seating structure. And probably opening up some concourses so it doesn't feel as much like you are in a submarine.

Quote from: Lostwave on January 16, 2019, 09:18:15 AM
If lot J moves forward, and I am pretty sure it will, then I don't see them ever building a completely new stadium, remodel is the only option.  Without Lot J, we could build a stadium on lot J, M, N and while construction is happening we could play in the current stadium.  If they fill lot J, we would have no where to build a new stadium, except on the existing footprint.  That would mean we would be without a stadium for 2-5 years.

Plus daily's place integrates so well into the stadium, I think several more major remodels will have to be the plan moving forward.

Great points!

Quote from: Tacachale on January 15, 2019, 10:29:12 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 15, 2019, 10:03:26 AM
More home games
Less seats
Cheaper tickets
Smaller stadium requirements
Easier to find corporate sponsors
Better international presence
Better TV exposure for the City

And that is just off the top of my head.

The Magic being 2 hours away is meaningless.  The Mavs cried foul when the Thunder moved (2.5 hours away).  The NBA can function successfully with a smaller fan base which is why in several cities the NBA is the only game in town.

Portland
OKC
Sacramento
Salt Lake City
San Antonio
Memphis
Orlando

Anyhow, the NBA isn't coming to Jax.  Mayor Brown looked into it and the answer was No.

*Jacksonville has a long history of football
*Jacksonville has no history of supporting basketball

Artis Gilmore would disagree.

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 16, 2019, 02:55:58 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on January 15, 2019, 10:29:12 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 15, 2019, 10:03:26 AM
More home games
Less seats
Cheaper tickets
Smaller stadium requirements
Easier to find corporate sponsors
Better international presence
Better TV exposure for the City

And that is just off the top of my head.

The Magic being 2 hours away is meaningless.  The Mavs cried foul when the Thunder moved (2.5 hours away).  The NBA can function successfully with a smaller fan base which is why in several cities the NBA is the only game in town.

Portland
OKC
Sacramento
Salt Lake City
San Antonio
Memphis
Orlando

Anyhow, the NBA isn't coming to Jax.  Mayor Brown looked into it and the answer was No.

*Jacksonville has a long history of football
*Jacksonville has no history of supporting basketball

Artis Gilmore would disagree.

A Cinderella run though the NCAA tournament in 1970 for JU hardly qualifies as sustained support.

Agree with Steve. JU used to play at the JVMA for 4-5 years but they couldn't sustain a decent crowd so they went back to Swisher on campus.  JU said the reason wasn't attendance but rather the desire to have more on-campus events. I think they took a hard look at operating costs and questioned why they were playing in 15,000 seat arena when they only drew 700+. Definitely playing in a church built for Easter Sunday.

Both UNF and JU have always averaged <1,000 attendees with the exclusion of a few outlier successful seasons. And even in those good times your in the 1,500 range for attendance. Not much of an impact.

The Jacksonville market is a way better draw for football than basketball.

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 16, 2019, 03:30:22 PM
Agree with Steve. JU used to play at the JVMA for 4-5 years but they couldn't sustain a decent crowd so they went back to Swisher on campus.  JU said the reason wasn't attendance but rather the desire to have more on-campus events. I think they took a hard look at operating costs and questioned why they were playing in 15,000 seat arena when they only drew 700+. Definitely playing in a church built for Easter Sunday.

Both UNF and JU have always averaged <1,000 attendees with the exclusion of a few outlier successful seasons. And even in those good times your in the 1,500 range for attendance. Not much of an impact.

The Jacksonville market is a way better draw for football than basketball.

UNF's average is higher than that, but your point is correct.

There are a million places in Jax to build a new stadium.  The actual footprint of the stadium really isn't that large.  I vote for Northern St Johns County or Yulledinaville.

Quote from: Kerry on January 17, 2019, 07:57:53 PM
There are a million places in Jax to build a new stadium.  The actual footprint of the stadium really isn't that large.  I vote for Northern St Johns County or Yulledinaville.

Northern St. Johns County here.

We have people calling for petitions and complaints about trying to build an apartment complex that might include rooms people can actually afford. The largest things we approve are schools and suburbs, and people here are trying to kill the latter.

If you think anyone's nuts enough to even think about that here, then I'd dare them to try.

Quote from: Kerry on January 17, 2019, 07:57:53 PM
There are a million places in Jax to build a new stadium.  The actual footprint of the stadium really isn't that large.  I vote for Northern St Johns County or Yulledinaville.

Sorry, I've got to ask:

Yulledinaville?

I assume he's talking about between the River City Marketplace area, Yulee and Fernandina Beach.

Quote from: Jagsdrew on January 16, 2019, 03:30:22 PM
Agree with Steve. JU used to play at the JVMA for 4-5 years but they couldn't sustain a decent crowd so they went back to Swisher on campus.  JU said the reason wasn't attendance but rather the desire to have more on-campus events. I think they took a hard look at operating costs and questioned why they were playing in 15,000 seat arena when they only drew 700+. Definitely playing in a church built for Easter Sunday.

Both UNF and JU have always averaged <1,000 attendees with the exclusion of a few outlier successful seasons. And even in those good times your in the 1,500 range for attendance. Not much of an impact.

The Jacksonville market is a way better draw for football than basketball.

Jacksonville's football legacy includes a neutral-site rivalry football game between SEC blue-bloods, a college bowl game that has always featured big name schools from major conferences, and the NFL. You really can't compare Jacksonville's support of Florida-Georgia, the Gator Bowl and the Jags to Jacksonville's support of A-Sun basketball.

They didn't put the Magic in Orlando because of the tremendous support for Stetson Hatter hoops.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 18, 2019, 05:57:02 AM
I assume he's talking about between the River City Marketplace area, Yulee and Fernandina Beach.

Yep.  That is what the real estate agents are calling the area between Pecan Park and A1A east of 95.

Quote from: Kerry on January 17, 2019, 07:57:53 PM
There are a million places in Jax to build a new stadium.  The actual footprint of the stadium really isn't that large.  I vote for Northern St Johns County or Yulledinaville.

Do you think the Jags are going to invest all this money around the stadium/lot J/Shipyards just to ask to have a new one built in Yulee?  I don't think so.  This stadium will be renovated...

Quote from: Kerry on January 18, 2019, 10:10:39 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 18, 2019, 05:57:02 AM
I assume he's talking about between the River City Marketplace area, Yulee and Fernandina Beach.

Yep.  That is what the real estate agents are calling the area between Pecan Park and A1A east of 95.

Interesting. Apparently Google hasn't heard of it yet. I can't think of a time I ever Googled something and came back with absolutely zero results. I guess once their web crawlers get around to this thread, it will cease being a pseudo-Googlewhack.

^I've never heard of it until this thread.

Keep it where it is, but please find a way to connect the Skyway to it!  Love to get on that thing on Sunday and ride it to the stadium.
Then home (or anywhere within a few blocks).

Glenn, any thoughts on where a new stadium should be?

Quote from: MusicMan on January 18, 2019, 12:10:15 PM
Keep it where it is, but please find a way to connect the Skyway to it!  Love to get on that thing on Sunday and ride it to the stadium.
Then home (or anywhere within a few blocks).

Will the U2C even have the capacity to serve a crowd at a stadium event? Those little AVs only carry around 12 people max and go around 15 to 25mph. To serve a stadium event, they'd congest a viaduct-less Gator Bowl Boulevard, traveling in mixed-traffic with auto drivers trying to get out of there.

Drop off near the baseball stadium?  Any way to make it work?

Quote from: thelakelander on January 18, 2019, 12:38:28 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on January 18, 2019, 12:10:15 PM
Keep it where it is, but please find a way to connect the Skyway to it!  Love to get on that thing on Sunday and ride it to the stadium.
Then home (or anywhere within a few blocks).

Will the U2C even have the capacity to serve a crowd at a stadium event? Those little AVs only carry around 12 people max and go around 15 to 25mph. To serve a stadium event, they'd congest a viaduct-less Gator Bowl Boulevard, traveling in mixed-traffic with auto drivers trying to get out of there.

I honestly don't even know if they could serve a crowd at a Jumbo Shrimp game.

JTA is planning 15 clown cars for the JRTC-to-Stadium District corridor.

The clown cars they demonstrated had a max capacity of 12 riders.

In mixed traffic, on event days, those things aren't going to get anywhere near 25 mph.

Assuming two full trips along the corridor an hour, we're talking a max capacity of 360 riders an hour, if every car is fully packed.

The stadium seats nearly 70,000.

With capacity like that, it's going to be ECFH.*

*Every clown for himself.

^P.S. Not that we're comparing, but Charlotte's Lynx can carry 480 passengers max per trip on gameday, at 65 mph, with 10-minute headways due to not operating in mixed traffic (and not being a network of clown cars).

Quote from: MusicMan on January 18, 2019, 12:49:15 PM
Drop off near the baseball stadium?  Any way to make it work?

Dedicated ROW and higher capacity vehicles.

Quote from: Lostwave on January 18, 2019, 10:35:01 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 17, 2019, 07:57:53 PM
There are a million places in Jax to build a new stadium.  The actual footprint of the stadium really isn't that large.  I vote for Northern St Johns County or Yulledinaville.

Do you think the Jags are going to invest all this money around the stadium/lot J/Shipyards just to ask to have a new one built in Yulee?  I don't think so.  This stadium will be renovated...

What money?  All I've heard so far is how much the City needs to kick in.  Khan can't even find a tennant.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 18, 2019, 01:06:30 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 18, 2019, 12:38:28 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on January 18, 2019, 12:10:15 PM
Keep it where it is, but please find a way to connect the Skyway to it!  Love to get on that thing on Sunday and ride it to the stadium.
Then home (or anywhere within a few blocks).

Will the U2C even have the capacity to serve a crowd at a stadium event? Those little AVs only carry around 12 people max and go around 15 to 25mph. To serve a stadium event, they'd congest a viaduct-less Gator Bowl Boulevard, traveling in mixed-traffic with auto drivers trying to get out of there.

I honestly don't even know if they could serve a crowd at a Jumbo Shrimp game.

JTA is planning 15 clown cars for the JRTC-to-Stadium District corridor.

The clown cars they demonstrated had a max capacity of 12 riders.

In mixed traffic, on event days, those things aren't going to get anywhere near 25 mph.

Assuming two full trips along the corridor an hour, we're talking a max capacity of 360 riders an hour, if every car is fully packed.

The stadium seats nearly 70,000.

With capacity like that, it's going to be ECFH.*

*Every clown for himself.

The BUILD grant says they'll average 15 mph. Sounds more like a demonstration project than a real transit solution.

https://www.jtafla.com/build-grant/

Concept Plans:
https://www.jtafla.com/media/1712/bay-st-innovation-corridor-concept-plans-build-grant.pdf

STREETCAR IN EXCLUSIVE LANES...

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Qg8xDjR/0/M/i-Qg8xDjR-M.png)

Proven Technology

Wireless Possible

Milwaukee SC
El Paso SC
Oklahoma City SC
Charlotte LRT/SC
Atlanta SC/HR
Cincinnati SC
San Francisco SC/HR
Tucson SC
Dallas LRT/SC/CR
San Jose LRT
Sacramento LRT
Portland LRT/SC
Yakima SC
San Pedro SC
Los Angeles LRT/CR
Seattle SC/LRT
Tacoma LRT
Houston SC
Kenosha SC
Denver LRT/HR
Salt Lake City LRT/SC
Tampa SC
Minneapolis LRT
Kansas City SC
St. Louis LRT/SC
Memphis SC
New Orleans SC
Baltimore LRT
Pittsburgh LRT
Philadelphia SC
Boston SC
Cleveland LRT
Detroit SC
Buffalo LRT
Norfolk LRT

SC=STREETCAR    LRT=LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT     HR=HEAVY RAIL     CR=COMMUTER RAIL

"...Streetcar is not a good fit in Jacksonville" JTA

WHY?

Because JTA is a state agency.  If most of those cities above left their local transportation up to their State government many of them wouldn't have streetcars either.  In many cases State government has actively tried to kill rail transit.

^The Bay Street thing is probably less JTA and more COJ. I would not be surprised if Curry and Khan don't want to take time rebuilding Gator Bowl Boulevard to accommodate dedicated lanes. At this point, outside of razing the ramps to make more land for development, it doesn't seem like they're going to do much with Gator Bowl Boulevard.

Well, I doubt any of it happens anyhow.  New/retrofit stadium, Lot J, Shipyards, convention center, and who know what else, and the City can't even get the railing rebuilt at Memorial Park.  The ramps might come down but that will be it, and honestly, I would prefer if that was all that happened.

Quote from: Kerry on January 21, 2019, 02:57:16 PM
Because JTA is a state agency.  If most of those cities above left their local transportation up to their State government many of them wouldn't have streetcars either.  In many cases State government has actively tried to kill rail transit.

JTA is not a state agency - it is an independent authority created by state legislation.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 21, 2019, 09:22:35 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 21, 2019, 02:57:16 PM
Because JTA is a state agency.  If most of those cities above left their local transportation up to their State government many of them wouldn't have streetcars either.  In many cases State government has actively tried to kill rail transit.

JTA is not a state agency - it is an independent authority created by state legislation.

https://www.jtafla.com/about-jta/

Who are we?
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority, an independent state agency serving Duval County, has multi-modal responsibilities

About JTA? I've always thought that part of the problem is in the nomenclature. Take a bunch (largely) of local's and good ol' boys, sprinkle a very few outside professionals in whatever your latest pipe dream and call them an 'AUTHORITY.' Then from within, shower them with accolades and rewards for said pipe dream and you've created a self aggrandizing beast. Without true progressive mass transit thinking using world proven solutions, we're dead in the water now and forever.

Quote from: Kerry on January 21, 2019, 10:32:09 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 21, 2019, 09:22:35 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 21, 2019, 02:57:16 PM
Because JTA is a state agency.  If most of those cities above left their local transportation up to their State government many of them wouldn't have streetcars either.  In many cases State government has actively tried to kill rail transit.

JTA is not a state agency - it is an independent authority created by state legislation.

https://www.jtafla.com/about-jta/

Who are we?
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority, an independent state agency serving Duval County, has multi-modal responsibilities

Holy crap guys - talk about splitting hairs. Yes, the JTA is known as one of the "Independent Agencies", like JAXPORT, JAA, etc. It was created through state level legislation. But yes, it's different legislatively than say FDOT.

Do the rest of the cities in Florida have these "independent agencies" created by the State?

Quote from: Kerry on January 22, 2019, 01:35:28 PM
Do the rest of the cities in Florida have these "independent agencies" created by the State?

I think most or all of them were created as part of Consolidation The state had to pass new laws for Consolidation to even take place and likely directly included provisions for these agencies. 

That I'm not sure of. My feeling is the agencies are a mixed bag of efficiency. I think JAA operates extremely well. I think JTA is better now than they were under Blaylock but still not amazing. JEA's really unimpressed me of late. JAXPORT I don't understand enough about to make an educated comment. I think I'm missing someone....

Anyway, now that I completely steered this off topic.....

Back to talking about the Jags new stadium!

From the JTA website: https://www.jtafla.com/about-jta/jta-history/
JTA was created as the Jacksonville Expressway Authority in 1955 by the Florida Legislature to build an expressway system funded primarily by tolls on 2 bridges: Fuller Warren and Mathews. The Expressway Authority could also build feeder roads to the expressway system, and these include several local arterial roads, now on the state road system.  The bridge over Trout River, on what would become I-95, was built in 1957.  The Hart followed in 1969. In 1971 the Florida Legislature added mass transit responsibilities, and changed the name to the Jacksonville Transportation Authority. In December of 1971, the JTA purchased the assets of the Jacksonville Coach Company, and began providing bus service.
Members of the JTA Board include 3 appointed by the Governor (confirmed by the Legislature), 3 appointed by the Mayor (confirmed by City Council), and the District Secretary of the Florida DOT.

Maybe the bigger question is, is Jacksonville structurally capable of thriving in 21st century America while be governed by 1950/60s laws.  I can't think of any other city subject to this much State control.  Maybe the legacy of consolidation is how much local control had to given up to achieve it and self-determination abandoned.

No wonder the City focuses so heavily on the Jags - it seems to be all the City is responsible for.

Quote from: Kerry on January 22, 2019, 04:26:48 PM
Maybe the bigger question is, is Jacksonville structurally capable of thriving in 21st century America while be governed by 1950/60s laws.  I can't think of any other city subject to this much State control.  Maybe the legacy of consolidation is how much local control had to given up to achieve it and self-determination abandoned.

No wonder the City focuses so heavily on the Jags - it seems to be all the City is responsible for.

New York City's transit authority is a state agency. While not an org most would aspire to emulate, I'm
Not sure the fact that the Governor has ultimate control is holding them back.

Quote from: Steve on January 22, 2019, 02:17:04 PM
Anyway, now that I completely steered this off topic.....

Back to talking about the Jags new stadium!

Not much to talk about, when it's obvious they're not getting a brand spanking new stadium no matter what. Best that can probably be done is another rebuild like the Gator Bowl to Jax Municipal. More realistic is a big renovation that adds some features from other stadiums and maybe cements it as the "cornerstone" of Khan's Lot J + Shipyards project.

Quote from: Steve on January 22, 2019, 04:59:47 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 22, 2019, 04:26:48 PM
Maybe the bigger question is, is Jacksonville structurally capable of thriving in 21st century America while be governed by 1950/60s laws.  I can't think of any other city subject to this much State control.  Maybe the legacy of consolidation is how much local control had to given up to achieve it and self-determination abandoned.

No wonder the City focuses so heavily on the Jags - it seems to be all the City is responsible for.

New York City's transit authority is a state agency. While not an org most would aspire to emulate, I'm
Not sure the fact that the Governor has ultimate control is holding them back.

I think you're giving JTA a lot more flack than they deserve for the wrong reasons. If they deserve flack for anything, it's this dogged insistence on the self driving clown cars that have no evidence of working and given the design proposals we do have, would cost more than building anything that's already proven. I suppose their failure to make a case for any other new project integrating their plans is a problem too, but that leads back to what I already said.

I don't think the Jags are going to be happy with some upgrades.  I think they sent some feelers out before they spend any real money on Lot J.

I don't know where they'd think the kind of money to build a new billion-dollar stadium is going to come from.

Quote from: Kerry on January 23, 2019, 07:52:15 AM
I don't think the Jags are going to be happy with some upgrades.  I think they sent some feelers out before they spend any real money on Lot J.

What gives you that impression? Are you suggesting that construction on Lot J is on hold until the Jaguars determine if a new stadium will be built on that site? Less than two years after the latest in a series of $180 million in upgrades to the existing facility?

Quote"I would think that in this marketplace the first thing we would look at is a refurbishment of the existing stadium," Lamping said.

"That has been done successfully as well," he said, referring to facilities in Chicago, Kansas City, Green Bay, Miami and New Orleans where teams and municipalities have funded more than $300 million worth of upgrades since 1995.

To me, it sounds like the Jaguars will continue to explore further upgrades of the existing facility.

Quote from: JBTripper on January 23, 2019, 10:41:22 AMAre you suggesting that construction on Lot J is on hold until the Jaguars determine if a new stadium will be built on that site? Less than two years after the latest in a series of $180 million in upgrades to the existing facility?

Lot J doesn't make sense without an entire sports complex - stadium, arena, amphitheater, baseball grounds - feeding into it.

There's no universe where the Jags demand a new stadium in the next 20 years, and no universe where they build anywhere other than the sports complex.

They've invested hundreds of millions into the existing stadium, and Lamping has already hinted at what the next set of very expensive upgrades will look like (wider concourses, more amenities, cover from the elements). They're not just going to tear everything down, play a season elsewhere, and rebuild a brand new stadium.

Lamping has also made it very clear that, economically, the Jags wouldn't necessarily gain that much from a new stadium relative other franchises because our market size and corporate community isn't exactly being underserved by TIAA Bank Fileld.

The only scenario where I could see the Jags pressing for a new stadium in the next 15 years minimum would be if the city were to find itself with a massive economic windfall from a JEA sale. But even then, the Jags might be better off pushing for incentives for secondary revenue streams at the Shipyards and surrounding area than building a replacement stadium.

Well certainly the Jags have started walking back their comments about needing a new stadium.

Lamping quote from https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/future-of-aging-stadium-a-concern-for-the-jaguars

Quote"There's no question that TIAA Bank Field has aged well," he said. "But at some point in time, there's going to have to be a stadium solution."

Serious conversations about rebuilding or refurbishing TIAA Bank Field aren't likely this year, he said, but that doesn't mean the team isn't having internal conversations.

"If we don't start thinking about it, we'll wake up one day and have a stadium that's not meeting the needs of the fans or the community," he said.

Now the Jags are saying that comment was related to getting the Super Bowl back.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/sports/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/jaguars-release-statement-on-vps-comments-about-new-stadium-major-upgrades/77-baf34dff-79de-4094-bbc1-af3353f2737c

Quote"According to the Jaguars, Lamping's comments were made in response to a question about whether or not Jacksonville would ever be awarded a Super Bowl."

So I guess we can only speculate about what is really going on at the top.

1.  Lamping misspoke and instead of just saying that, the team tried some BS redirect.  Clearly he wasn't talking about the Super Bowl in the original quote.
2.  The team really did want a new stadium and some local leader told them to walk that comment back - it isn't happening.
3.  The team does want a new stadium but didn't mean to let it slip out now.

Finally, the whole term 'Stadium solution" has been used in other cities over the last couple of years (all requests for new stadiums).  This comment is the first I have heard that Jax even needed a 'stadium solution'.

Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 23, 2019, 10:23:58 AM
I don't know where they'd think the kind of money to build a new billion-dollar stadium is going to come from.

Mexico?

Quote from: JBTripper on January 23, 2019, 10:41:22 AM

Quote from: Kerry on January 23, 2019, 07:52:15 AM
I don't think the Jags are going to be happy with some upgrades.  I think they sent some feelers out before they spend any real money on Lot J.

What gives you that impression? Are you suggesting that construction on Lot J is on hold until the Jaguars determine if a new stadium will be built on that site? Less than two years after the latest in a series of $180 million in upgrades to the existing facility?

Yes - I think exactly that.  I also think their timing and financing got all screwed up when the Wembley deal feel through and they're still trying to adjust.

Just came across this from John Stossel.  The Jags are 9n the list of teams that earn more from their stadium deal than it costs to build the stadium.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rHErCY2PZNU&feature=youtu.be

Quote from: Kerry on January 30, 2019, 03:16:56 AM
Just came across this from John Stossel.  The Jags are 9n the list of teams that earn more from their stadium deal than it costs to build the stadium.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rHErCY2PZNU&feature=youtu.be

Actually 6th, but good for the Jaguars!

This video doesn't reveal anything new or groundbreaking. Of course the taxpayers don't see any of the money from concessions or merchandise sales at the Super Bowl. They don't stock the merchandise or staff the concession stands, so why would they? The taxpayers are paid in the sales tax on those items, and the sales tax on the hotels and restaurants that more than a million out-of-town guests will be using this week. Does the city turn a profit or even break even? No, but they get an NFL team, an MLS team, a facility to host the Rolling Stones, Garth Brooks, Monster Jam, Georgia high school state champioships, the Peach Bowl, the SEC Championship, Chick-fil-a Kickoff Classic and all manner of other events that would otherwise take place in Birmingham, Charlotte, Tampa or even Jacksonville. And the tax revenues resulting from those events still don't cover the cost of the stadium... but those events are taking place in your city and you can enjoy them. Is there no value in that?

Quote from: JBTripper on January 30, 2019, 01:42:19 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 30, 2019, 03:16:56 AM
Just came across this from John Stossel.  The Jags are 9n the list of teams that earn more from their stadium deal than it costs to build the stadium.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rHErCY2PZNU&feature=youtu.be

Actually 6th, but good for the Jaguars!

This video doesn't reveal anything new or groundbreaking. Of course the taxpayers don't see any of the money from concessions or merchandise sales at the Super Bowl. They don't stock the merchandise or staff the concession stands, so why would they? The taxpayers are paid in the sales tax on those items, and the sales tax on the hotels and restaurants that more than a million out-of-town guests will be using this week. Does the city turn a profit or even break even? No, but they get an NFL team, an MLS team, a facility to host the Rolling Stones, Garth Brooks, Monster Jam, Georgia high school state champioships, the Peach Bowl, the SEC Championship, Chick-fil-a Kickoff Classic and all manner of other events that would otherwise take place in Birmingham, Charlotte, Tampa or even Jacksonville. And the tax revenues resulting from those events still don't cover the cost of the stadium... but those events are taking place in your city and you can enjoy them. Is there no value in that?

A huge unmeasurable value... but if pro or college football is not to your liking... Hate ancient rock bands or country music... would never go to a monster truck show then it it is a giant waste of tax-payer money...

QuoteThey don't stock the merchandise or staff the concession stands, so why would they?

Because the taxpayers paid for the stadium including the space for the concession stands. They pay to maintain it too. 

Sales taxes are paid on everything sold at Avenues Mall or SJTC, but the taxpayers didn't build or maintain those structures. 

If we get repaid for the stadium through taxes, those taxes need to be a lot higher.   I propose a Taxpayer Recovery fee to be assessed on every purchase at the stadium.

Some folks can't see the forest for the trees.

My point was not that the taxpayers do or should ever expect to recoup their investment in event facilities, but the idea that the taxpayers get literally nothing from having event facilities in their city is ludicrous. They collect sales taxes on everything sold at the facility. They collect bed taxes paid by out-of-town visitors who otherwise would have no reason to set foot in their city. They collect rent from the teams and other event organizers who use the facility. And, most importantly, they get to have desirable events in their city.

You may not care for the NFL, classic rock, monster trucks or fun in general, but these things do improve the quality of life for your fellow Jaxons. They are also undeniably important for the recruitment and retention of a skilled and educated workforce (who pay taxes, and may even one day employ the fun-hating set). Existing residents might spend their entertainment dollar at the movies absent an NFL team, but Tinsletown doesn't have quite the same impact as the Jaguars for somebody considering job offers in Jacksonville and Birmingham.

Quote from: JBTripper on January 31, 2019, 11:28:57 AM
Some folks can't see the forest for the trees.

My point was not that the taxpayers do or should ever expect to recoup their investment in event facilities, but the idea that the taxpayers get literally nothing from having event facilities in their city is ludicrous. They collect sales taxes on everything sold at the facility. They collect bed taxes paid by out-of-town visitors who otherwise would have no reason to set foot in their city. They collect rent from the teams and other event organizers who use the facility. And, most importantly, they get to have desirable events in their city.

You may not care for the NFL, classic rock, monster trucks or fun in general, but these things do improve the quality of life for your fellow Jaxons. They are also undeniably important for the recruitment and retention of a skilled and educated workforce (who pay taxes, and may even one day employ the fun-hating set). Existing residents might spend their entertainment dollar at the movies absent an NFL team, but Tinsletown doesn't have quite the same impact as the Jaguars for somebody considering job offers in Jacksonville and Birmingham.

While I'm not going to say that I side with the Jags and Khan on everything (because I do think taxpayer money at times in the Jags history has gone too far in their direction), the stadium is a public asset, like the riverwalk, or any other city park. Do I think that we need to maintain those places better? Emphatically YES. Does that mean we shouldn't sink a dime into the stadium? No.

Let's be frank, they are asking for a roof on the current stadium or a rebuild. That is also why they want the convention center over there so they can create something similar to Atlanta or Indianapolis for conventioneers and have the area as a convention center/events district. I really think the NFL loves the Indiana Convention Center (hold the combine there every year) and Khan bought into the idea of bundling an indoor stadium with meeting space, a convention center, amphitheater, area, minor league baseball stadium, and entertainment/mall, all within a half mile distance. Just my opinion. Indy, though, also has the downtown core a lot closer.

I think the roof will be the move, as I think that is why they built Daily's Place and want to move forward with Lot J.

Indianapolis works because everything is in the core and clustered together. It appears they purposely planned their public investments in a way where they'd build off each other. We're still struggling to accept that basic concept.

Khan wants a roof - great!  He can write the contractor a check and start construction.  No need to wait 10 years.

QuoteWe're still struggling to accept that basic concept.

Actually, more like actively working against that concept.

I think you miss the point. Khan does not own the stadium or Dailey's Place. I believe he does not control entertainment events at the stadium. That is SMG. He does control Dailey's Place. Khan (nor my self) will spend millions of dollars on a facility he does not own. That is the point of joint projects. If he and the Jags leave town, the facilities are still there and owned by you and me.

Quote from: jaxjags on January 31, 2019, 02:24:00 PM
I think you miss the point. Khan does not own the stadium or Dailey's Place. I believe he does not control entertainment events at the stadium. That is SMG. He does control Dailey's Place. Khan (nor my self) will spend millions of dollars on a facility he does not own. That is the point of joint projects. If he and the Jags leave town, the facilities are still there and owned by you and me.

Yes. Khan will no sooner finance a roof on a building he does not own than you or I will personally finance a beach restoration project. Yet, he has already paid for roughly $100 million in improvements to the city's facility, and is vilified by some for it. Wealth envy is a powerful emotion.

I'm sorry.  I was under the impression a roof would enhance HIS customer's experience and increase HIS bottom line.  If not, why would he even want it?

Why wait 10 years making his customers suffer?  Just so he can use it as bargining chip later?

Quote from: jaxjags on January 31, 2019, 02:24:00 PM
I think you miss the point. Khan does not own the stadium or Dailey's Place. I believe he does not control entertainment events at the stadium. That is SMG. He does control Dailey's Place. Khan (nor my self) will spend millions of dollars on a facility he does not own. That is the point of joint projects. If he and the Jags leave town, the facilities are still there and owned by you and me.

He controls the use of both facilities to his whims. He is spared the expense of property taxes because he doesn't 'own' it.  He is also spared the expense of maintenance and yet controls the event calendar and most of the revenue.  It is BETTER than owning it. These upgrades and luxuries that are not in any way required for the other events held there.     

Quote from: JBTripper on January 31, 2019, 03:00:15 PM



[quote/]
Yes. Khan will no sooner finance a roof on a building he does not own than you or I will personally finance a beach restoration project. Yet, he has already paid for roughly $100 million in improvements to the city's facility, and is vilified by some for it. Wealth envy is a powerful emotion.

The Stadium does not need a roof for anything it is currently used for, including football.  Cities that do not have NFL team do not build new public sports facilities every 20 years with major upgrades in between. This will be a lot of money that could be spent on many other things. It is completely valid and expected to question this aggrandizement of an individual's net worth at public expense. The 'wealth envy' comment is nonsense.     

Sorry but you are incorrect. SMG managers the stadium. Just look up COJ-SMG. For instance Khan cannot prevent and is not responsible for FL-GA, Gator Bowl, Rolling Stones etc. SMG works with other entities and promoters for these types of events. Again if the Jags or Khan leave town, those events still go own.

I would argue the City would host far more events at the stadium if it wasn't home to an NFL team.  The Jags use it for 9 games a year, but the stadium is unusable for almost any other activity for 5 months.

Perhaps, but stadium tours are not very popular these days and usually not in the fall.

Quote from: jaxjags on January 31, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
Sorry but you are incorrect. SMG managers the stadium. Just look up COJ-SMG. For instance Khan cannot prevent and is not responsible for FL-GA, Gator Bowl, Rolling Stones etc. SMG works with other entities and promoters for these types of events. Again if the Jags or Khan leave town, those events still go own.

SMG is not going to overrule the Jags on an event or date. Sure they mange the other dates but why would the Jags care about that. 

Quote from: jaxjags on January 31, 2019, 05:36:37 PM
Perhaps, but stadium tours are not very popular these days and usually not in the fall.

That is because the Jags are charging $20/person for the tour, which begs the question, why are the Jags charging $20 a person to tour a building owned by the City?  It should be open to the public like any other civic building.

Quote from: Kerry on January 31, 2019, 05:25:00 PM
I would argue the City would host far more events at the stadium if it wasn't home to an NFL team.  The Jags use it for 9 games a year, but the stadium is unusable for almost any other activity for 5 months.

Like what?  How many events that require a stadium that seats 75k are we turning down?

Quote from: acme54321 on January 31, 2019, 06:25:35 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 31, 2019, 05:25:00 PM
I would argue the City would host far more events at the stadium if it wasn't home to an NFL team.  The Jags use it for 9 games a year, but the stadium is unusable for almost any other activity for 5 months.

Like what?  How many events that require a stadium that seats 75k are we turning down?

Yeah, there aren't a lot of events these days that would need or would a stadium. I doubt there are 9 in one year we could bring in. I also doubt the presence of the Jaguars has much to do with the events not coming to the stadium.

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2019, 07:53:56 PM

Quote from: acme54321 on January 31, 2019, 06:25:35 PM

Quote from: Kerry on January 31, 2019, 05:25:00 PM
I would argue the City would host far more events at the stadium if it wasn't home to an NFL team.  The Jags use it for 9 games a year, but the stadium is unusable for almost any other activity for 5 months.

Like what?  How many events that require a stadium that seats 75k are we turning down?

Yeah, there aren't a lot of events these days that would need or would a stadium. I doubt there are 9 in one year we could bring in. I also doubt the presence of the Jaguars has much to do with the events not coming to the stadium.

Yeah - lots of stadiums hold events all year long, regardless. If the Jaguars only use their stadium for nine games, then there should be plenty of opportunity to host other events. I think it probably is more likely the result of Jax not being a large enough or attractive enough market to host those sorts of events.

Monster Jam baby!

They can't tear up the field during the season.  Things like Stadium Cross and Stadium Super Trucks come to mind.

Quote from: Kerry on January 31, 2019, 05:25:00 PM
I would argue the City would host far more events at the stadium if it wasn't home to an NFL team.  The Jags use it for 9 games a year, but the stadium is unusable for almost any other activity for 5 months.

You do know this makes absolutely no sense? Could they host a high school lacrosse match on a Saturday or Sunday of a game weekend? GTFO with some of these dumb statements.

Quote from: Kerry on February 01, 2019, 10:38:16 AM
They can't tear up the field during the season.  Things like Stadium Cross and Stadium Super Trucks come to mind.

I don't know what those are, but do they attract 60k+ people per event? Do they fill the same number of hotel rooms and generate the same level of revenue? If so, are there really 9+ of them out there that we could book to replace the Jags? Come on, man. The idea that a football stadium could get more use without that pesky football team is just silly.

Let's look at sports. In addition to the Jags, we also have two annual college football games. This year, we're also having a Florida State game, which should be big. All three of those things occur during the NFL season. Considering that none of those three teams are likely to add any more events here, and we haven't been able to make the Gator Bowl relevant again - last season it drew only 38k people - it seems unlikely that we'll be able to fill the gap with more football.

We have Monster Jam coming up next month. That should sell out, though tickets start at $15 so it's not comparably to an NFL game. I also doubt it would have that kind of attendance if there were 9 more of them a year.

We also have a Rolling Stones concert, which has sold out and is crazy expensive. However, ain't filling the TIAA Bank calendar with bands. The bands that can - and want to - fill out a stadium are fewer and farther between. Today they stadium shows mostly done by the same handful of big superstars that have been doing it for a million years and have tons of fans. Most others play in arenas or smaller venues.

We've had success with soccer in the past. The USMNT friendlies in 2012 and 2014 drew 44,428 and 52,033.  Both happened with the Jags here. These games happen here once in a blue moon, and that attendance is much smaller than an NFL game. We weren't successful in getting any CONCACAF games.

We could do other things that would draw a big crowd like motocross or wrestling. However, we could do that in the spring. The issue is that there aren't any other events that could fill that stadium as well as the Jags can. And certainly no one-off program would chip in for stadium improvements as the Jags do.

Maybe you guy are right - if we took away the 9 Jags games we probably couldn't attract 9 other events.  Not sure what I was thinking.

Quote from: Kerry on February 01, 2019, 02:21:02 PM
Maybe you guy are right - if we took away the 9 Jags games we probably couldn't attract 9 other events.  Not sure what I was thinking.

Highly doubt it (at least, events that would be worth opening, powering, and staffing the place.

I was curious, so I looked at Metlife Stadium in New York, and Hard Rock Stadium in Miami. Both have under 10 ticketed events between now and the summer (this is excluding things that are around the stadium or events like an autograph signing that happens to be at the stadium).

Admittedly, Football Stadium usage is tough. It's one of the positives of Daily's place since a lot of the infrastructure (restrooms, concessions, etc.) is shared with the stadium.

Doing some quick research I found a study done by some university professor on this very subject.  Outside of a few venues, stadiums this size have very limited usage although NFL teams are trying to find a way to get more use out of them.  Bottom line, they are just to big for any other use.  Outdoor stadiums in the 10,000 to 30,000 seat range that had the most usage - from graduations to cheerleading camps to high school football championships to rodeos.

Quote from: Kerry on February 03, 2019, 01:50:28 PM
Doing some quick research I found a study done by some university professor on this very subject.  Outside of a few venues, stadiums this size have very limited usage although NFL teams are trying to find a way to get more use out of them.  Bottom line, they are just to big for any other use.  Outdoor stadiums in the 10,000 to 30,000 seat range that had the most usage - from graduations to cheerleading camps to high school football championships to rodeos.

I think that was almost literally Tacachale's point. It's not the presence of the Jaguars that is keeping the stadium from being used more.

Quote from: Adam White on February 03, 2019, 04:50:41 PM

Quote from: Kerry on February 03, 2019, 01:50:28 PM
Doing some quick research I found a study done by some university professor on this very subject.  Outside of a few venues, stadiums this size have very limited usage although NFL teams are trying to find a way to get more use out of them.  Bottom line, they are just to big for any other use.  Outdoor stadiums in the 10,000 to 30,000 seat range that had the most usage - from graduations to cheerleading camps to high school football championships to rodeos.

I think that was almost literally Tacachale's point. It's not the presence of the Jaguars that is keeping the stadium from being used more.

Yes, exactly. In terms of usage, it's much easier frankly to accommodate non-home team usage in an arena or ballpark. For cities that have both a hockey tram and basketball team, you get about 80 home games during the winter months, then the capacity makes it much more attractive for concerts and such. Even baseball is easier than football because of the size (plus you have 81 home games), though the field layout makes it harder for things like concerts (not that they don't happen)

I love the Jags, but you'd be hard pressed to find a football stadium that isn't used more than 20 times a year total.

Quote from: Steve on February 04, 2019, 08:20:09 AM

Quote from: Adam White on February 03, 2019, 04:50:41 PM

Quote from: Kerry on February 03, 2019, 01:50:28 PM
Doing some quick research I found a study done by some university professor on this very subject.  Outside of a few venues, stadiums this size have very limited usage although NFL teams are trying to find a way to get more use out of them.  Bottom line, they are just to big for any other use.  Outdoor stadiums in the 10,000 to 30,000 seat range that had the most usage - from graduations to cheerleading camps to high school football championships to rodeos.

I think that was almost literally Tacachale's point. It's not the presence of the Jaguars that is keeping the stadium from being used more.

Yes, exactly. In terms of usage, it's much easier frankly to accommodate non-home team usage in an arena or ballpark. For cities that have both a hockey tram and basketball team, you get about 80 home games during the winter months, then the capacity makes it much more attractive for concerts and such. Even baseball is easier than football because of the size (plus you have 81 home games), though the field layout makes it harder for things like concerts (not that they don't happen)

I love the Jags, but you'd be hard pressed to find a football stadium that isn't used more than 20 times a year total.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I thought having an NBA team would have been a better fit for Jax than the NFL, but that is a dead subject.

More info on what's being discussed about the stadium. https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-president-mark-lamping-on-the-stadiums-next-step

It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The partial roof thing would be appealing for the general public. Most of the recent renovations have been things that were limited in their appeal (club areas, etc.).

I'd say this - I'd have to hear the details to decide if I'm in favor or not. But, any investment anywhere near that amount of money would HAVE to come with a lease extension - and a significant one.

Additionally, I'd be okay with them in Gainesville for a year. I would not be excited about Orlando for a year.

Will this ask be made before or after Curry leaves office?  Will this be attached (somehow) to pro JEA privatization PR?  I'm with sanmarcomatt, thanks for the memories indeed.

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The city will come up with whatever pricetag it takes. No mayor wants to be the one who lost the Jaguars. The question will be what kind of deal the city secures in exchange for the investment. Another 30 year lease agreement would be good. The only limit will be how much we can actually bond, but I'm sure the Jags understand that (and also understand that the NFL's running out of cities that will pay this kind of money for a stadium). We do have the benefit of not totally starting from scratch - or worse, total demo and rebuild - since most of the stadium's bones are good.

It would be silly if the JEA sale were to go to this expense. What the hell would we sell in another 20 or 30 years when the stadium issue comes back again? The airport? Smarter to bond it against bed tax, sales tax, etc. that would be recurring as opposed to one time money.

In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

Quote from: Steve on November 15, 2019, 09:55:04 AM

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The partial roof thing would be appealing for the general public. Most of the recent renovations have been things that were limited in their appeal (club areas, etc.).

I'd say this - I'd have to hear the details to decide if I'm in favor or not. But, any investment anywhere near that amount of money would HAVE to come with a lease extension - and a significant one.

Additionally, I'd be okay with them in Gainesville for a year. I would not be excited about Orlando for a year.

It would definitely be with an extension of the lease. Probably 25 years or so.

How much Bed Tax is left to bond? Don't the Jags already get 2/3 of it now? Isn't what little bit of marketing JAX does come from the small percentage they don't already get?   

Quote from: vicupstate on November 15, 2019, 11:19:15 AM
How much Bed Tax is left to bond? Don't the Jags already get 2/3 of it now? Isn't what little bit of marketing JAX does come from the small percentage they don't already get?

I think that's correct, but I believe you could raise the bed tax. You could sell it to the hotels that a new stadium will increase revenue, and of course it wouldn't affect any locals who aren't staying in a hotel. At any rate it should be bonded against something that's recurring so we're not selling off the Timucan Preserve next time it comes up.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 15, 2019, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The city will come up with whatever pricetag it takes. No mayor wants to be the one who lost the Jaguars. The question will be what kind of deal the city secures in exchange for the investment. Another 30 year lease agreement would be good. The only limit will be how much we can actually bond, but I'm sure the Jags understand that (and also understand that the NFL's running out of cities that will pay this kind of money for a stadium). We do have the benefit of not totally starting from scratch - or worse, total demo and rebuild - since most of the stadium's bones are good.

It would be silly if the JEA sale were to go to this expense. What the hell would we sell in another 20 or 30 years when the stadium issue comes back again? The airport? Smarter to bond it against bed tax, sales tax, etc. that would be recurring as opposed to one time money.

In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

Interesting thoughts on Atlanta. Personally I think Atlanta picked wrong and should have prioritized the Braves (81 Games) versus the Falcons (10 Games). I realize the dome also brings things like CFP, Bowl Game, Final Four, etc, but I'd rather have a steady crowd of 25k 81 times a year.

Quote from: Steve on November 15, 2019, 11:44:40 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 15, 2019, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The city will come up with whatever pricetag it takes. No mayor wants to be the one who lost the Jaguars. The question will be what kind of deal the city secures in exchange for the investment. Another 30 year lease agreement would be good. The only limit will be how much we can actually bond, but I'm sure the Jags understand that (and also understand that the NFL's running out of cities that will pay this kind of money for a stadium). We do have the benefit of not totally starting from scratch - or worse, total demo and rebuild - since most of the stadium's bones are good.

It would be silly if the JEA sale were to go to this expense. What the hell would we sell in another 20 or 30 years when the stadium issue comes back again? The airport? Smarter to bond it against bed tax, sales tax, etc. that would be recurring as opposed to one time money.

In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

Interesting thoughts on Atlanta. Personally I think Atlanta picked wrong and should have prioritized the Braves (81 Games) versus the Falcons (10 Games). I realize the dome also brings things like CFP, Bowl Game, Final Four, etc, but I'd rather have a steady crowd of 25k 81 times a year.

My understanding is it was tied to the specific conditions of the two stadiums. The Falcons deal generates direct revenue and the Braves deal would not. And while the baseball team has more games, it was not well located for that impact to spread around. There wasn't even transit access as I recall.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 15, 2019, 11:52:01 AM

Quote from: Steve on November 15, 2019, 11:44:40 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 15, 2019, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The city will come up with whatever pricetag it takes. No mayor wants to be the one who lost the Jaguars. The question will be what kind of deal the city secures in exchange for the investment. Another 30 year lease agreement would be good. The only limit will be how much we can actually bond, but I'm sure the Jags understand that (and also understand that the NFL's running out of cities that will pay this kind of money for a stadium). We do have the benefit of not totally starting from scratch - or worse, total demo and rebuild - since most of the stadium's bones are good.

It would be silly if the JEA sale were to go to this expense. What the hell would we sell in another 20 or 30 years when the stadium issue comes back again? The airport? Smarter to bond it against bed tax, sales tax, etc. that would be recurring as opposed to one time money.

In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

Interesting thoughts on Atlanta. Personally I think Atlanta picked wrong and should have prioritized the Braves (81 Games) versus the Falcons (10 Games). I realize the dome also brings things like CFP, Bowl Game, Final Four, etc, but I'd rather have a steady crowd of 25k 81 times a year.

My understanding is it was tied to the specific conditions of the two stadiums. The Falcons deal generates direct revenue and the Braves deal would not. And while the baseball team has more games, it was not well located for that impact to spread around. There wasn't even transit access as I recall.

Yea the location of Turner Field is odd. It's downtown, sort of. The area around the stadium isn't great and MARTA is just far enough away that it's not a great walk. They have a bus shuttle but that takes time. In terms of local revenue I'm not sure the details; you may be right.

Quote from: Steve on November 15, 2019, 12:00:06 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 15, 2019, 11:52:01 AM

Quote from: Steve on November 15, 2019, 11:44:40 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 15, 2019, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The city will come up with whatever pricetag it takes. No mayor wants to be the one who lost the Jaguars. The question will be what kind of deal the city secures in exchange for the investment. Another 30 year lease agreement would be good. The only limit will be how much we can actually bond, but I'm sure the Jags understand that (and also understand that the NFL's running out of cities that will pay this kind of money for a stadium). We do have the benefit of not totally starting from scratch - or worse, total demo and rebuild - since most of the stadium's bones are good.

It would be silly if the JEA sale were to go to this expense. What the hell would we sell in another 20 or 30 years when the stadium issue comes back again? The airport? Smarter to bond it against bed tax, sales tax, etc. that would be recurring as opposed to one time money.

In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

Interesting thoughts on Atlanta. Personally I think Atlanta picked wrong and should have prioritized the Braves (81 Games) versus the Falcons (10 Games). I realize the dome also brings things like CFP, Bowl Game, Final Four, etc, but I'd rather have a steady crowd of 25k 81 times a year.

My understanding is it was tied to the specific conditions of the two stadiums. The Falcons deal generates direct revenue and the Braves deal would not. And while the baseball team has more games, it was not well located for that impact to spread around. There wasn't even transit access as I recall.

Yea the location of Turner Field is odd. It's downtown, sort of. The area around the stadium isn't great and MARTA is just far enough away that it's not a great walk. They have a bus shuttle but that takes time. In terms of local revenue I'm not sure the details; you may be right.

If you haven't been to Atlanta in the past few years, you wouldn't recognize the Summerhill neighborhood. Most of the Georgia Avenue storefronts are occupied and there are quite a few new apartment buildings, townhouses and bungalows that have been constructed.  Georgia State is about to construct a new basketball arena on the parking lot where the original Turner Field used to be.

Quote from: Steve on November 15, 2019, 11:44:40 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 15, 2019, 10:39:33 AM

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
It comes down to this.

In the next couple of years, the Jaguars are going to ask for an extensive renovation of the stadium. One likely costing at least 500 million dollars.

Without that renovation, the team will move. That is not a question.

The city, and the state of Florida, will have to decide if they are willing to commit that amount of money to guarantee there will be an NFL team in Jacksonville beyond 2030.

I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

The city will come up with whatever pricetag it takes. No mayor wants to be the one who lost the Jaguars. The question will be what kind of deal the city secures in exchange for the investment. Another 30 year lease agreement would be good. The only limit will be how much we can actually bond, but I'm sure the Jags understand that (and also understand that the NFL's running out of cities that will pay this kind of money for a stadium). We do have the benefit of not totally starting from scratch - or worse, total demo and rebuild - since most of the stadium's bones are good.

It would be silly if the JEA sale were to go to this expense. What the hell would we sell in another 20 or 30 years when the stadium issue comes back again? The airport? Smarter to bond it against bed tax, sales tax, etc. that would be recurring as opposed to one time money.

In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

Interesting thoughts on Atlanta. Personally I think Atlanta picked wrong and should have prioritized the Braves (81 Games) versus the Falcons (10 Games). I realize the dome also brings things like CFP, Bowl Game, Final Four, etc, but I'd rather have a steady crowd of 25k 81 times a year.

I think you have to add the Atlanta United matches to that total as well. I would guess that the soccer matches generate more revenue for the city as they likely get more out of town visitors than the Braves.

I actually think the Jags are handling the stadium discussion really well thus far.

They're getting way out ahead of it.

They're clearly not demanding a new stadium.

The ideas being floated aren't flagrant cash grabs, but solid ideas to improve the stadium experience (shade from the elements, wider concourses, easier access between levels).

They're stating that they're prepared to share in the cost.

And they're being very upfront about the fact that said improvements would result in an extension of the lease.

No explicit threats.

No games about their desire to remain in the Jacksonville market.

Devil's always in the details, but compared to the shadiness we see elsewhere in professional sports, it feels like constructive, proactive dialog at this stage of the game.

I would actively support any "No" group that materializes.

Quote from: Kerry on November 15, 2019, 01:51:54 PM
I would actively support any "No" group that materializes.

Perfectly reasonable.

That's the beauty of starting discussions now.

Get all the details out there and allow ample time for public debate.

The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

Quote from: Kerry on November 15, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

The stadium has been there for 91 years.

And, like most other NFL stadiums, it's publicly owned.

Shad Khan put $10 million into the stadium shortly after buying the team.

The Jags paid half for the $63 million scoreboard/cabana upgrades.

The Jags paid half for the $90 million Daily's Place, Flex Field, club seat upgrades.

It's not like they're not putting money in.

We know what it costs to play ball in the NFL.

If the public is fine paying 50% (or whatever) for another $500 million in renovations to keep the stadium current, keep an NFL team here, and help draw in additional events, I'm totally fine with it.

That's what the bed tax is for, and our bed taxes have been steadily increasing with no sign of reversion.

Much bigger issue to me is where the city's getting $1.25 billion to fund Lot J and the Shipyards. If it's the bed tax, as City Council has suggested, that ain't going to leave much when the Jags come calling for a roof and new concourses.

Quote from: Kerry on November 15, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

As I am certain you are aware of, they are a primary tenant and not the owner of the stadium. It's not their (Jaguars) stuff. It's our (city of Jacksonville) stuff. Whether you like it or not.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 15, 2019, 03:26:44 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 15, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

The stadium has been there for 91 years.

And, like most other NFL stadiums, it's publicly owned.

Shad Khan put $10 million into the stadium shortly after buying the team.

The Jags paid half for the $63 million scoreboard/cabana upgrades.

The Jags paid half for the $90 million Daily's Place, Flex Field, club seat upgrades.

It's not like they're not putting money in.

We know what it costs to play ball in the NFL.

If the public is fine paying 50% (or whatever) for another $500 million in renovations to keep the stadium current, keep an NFL team here, and help draw in additional events, I'm totally fine with it.

That's what the bed tax is for, and our bed taxes have been steadily increasing with no sign of reversion.

Much bigger issue to me is where the city's getting $1.25 billion to fund Lot J and the Shipyards. If it's the bed tax, as City Council has suggested, that ain't going to leave much when the Jags come calling for a roof and new concourses.

It was in terms of a loan. But the NFL gave the Dolphins some of the funding for their stadium upgrades.

Quote from: sanmarcomatt on November 15, 2019, 04:07:37 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 15, 2019, 03:26:44 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 15, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
The Jags have been here for 25 years.  Surely they are turning a profit by now to be able to pay for their own stuff.  Maybe St Johns County might be interested.

The stadium has been there for 91 years.

And, like most other NFL stadiums, it's publicly owned.

Shad Khan put $10 million into the stadium shortly after buying the team.

The Jags paid half for the $63 million scoreboard/cabana upgrades.

The Jags paid half for the $90 million Daily's Place, Flex Field, club seat upgrades.

It's not like they're not putting money in.

We know what it costs to play ball in the NFL.

If the public is fine paying 50% (or whatever) for another $500 million in renovations to keep the stadium current, keep an NFL team here, and help draw in additional events, I'm totally fine with it.

That's what the bed tax is for, and our bed taxes have been steadily increasing with no sign of reversion.

Much bigger issue to me is where the city's getting $1.25 billion to fund Lot J and the Shipyards. If it's the bed tax, as City Council has suggested, that ain't going to leave much when the Jags come calling for a roof and new concourses.

Do you happen to know a source for the bed tax revenues by year? Perhaps my google skills are eroding...

Def not your Googling skills, I just tried Googling for the exact numbers too, and they do seem hard to find online.

I've got them somewhere back at work, but the key points are:

1) Everyone's, or at least almost everyone's, bed taxes are growing, just by proxy of a 10 year post-recession hotel boom (https://www.hotelbusiness.com/cbre-u-s-hotels-forecast-to-enjoy-tenth-consecutive-year-of-growth/)

2) Jacksonville is outpacing average hotel growth

Our bed taxes are in a good place to cover some of this stuff, but can't see a universe where they're in a place to cover all of it.

Problem #1:  The $500 million will quickly turn into over $1 billion.  The original rebuild of the stadium experienced similar or greater cost inflation.  Every City building project has done the same (see the Courthouse, etc.).  Call it bait and switch because once you start construction, you are hooked and really can't back out (see JEA Georgia nuclear power plant).

Problem #2: What the City really should ask for is stock in Jacksonville Jaguars, Inc.  The City gets virtually no revenue off the Jags activities and bears much of their expenses.  And, national studies have all concluded that pro teams do not add to a community's economy, they subtract from it.  What they add is intangible "psychological rewards" although the way the Jags have played the last few years that may also be up for debate.  Meanwhile, by many reports, the Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought the team.  Maybe we sell JEA and buy the Jags and get their dividends to subsidize the City budget  8)!

Problem #3:  The mayor and City Council will be putty in Khan's hands and give away the City to keep the team.  We should put the subsidies up for a vote:  Give the Jags the subsidies and keep the team or don't give them the subsidies and thank them for the memories.  I would love to see a UNF poll on that!

Problem #4:  We can extend the lease for 25 to 30 more years but the Jags will be back in 10 years for still more improvements and more subsidies.  They didn't go 25 years on the last lease without multiple asks and don't expect the pattern to change for the next 25 years.

Problem #5:  Given the concerns over concussions, TV saturation, TV quality so good its like being at the game while staying home, more competition for eyeballs, sports fatigue with 24/7 availability, etc., the NFL may be close to its peak popularity.  In 25 years, we may be more interested in virtual reality or watching Jax video game teams pitted against other cities for a global championship (these competitions already fill large arenas on a regular basis).

Problem #6:  In 25 years, the stadium may be sitting in a swamp due to the river overflowing its banks due to rising seas.

I could go on, but you get the idea.  Lot's of ways for us taxpayers to get left holding the bag.  FYI, I read where Oakland still has some $300+ million in bonds to pay off for a now-empty stadium.  The Chargers left San Diego because they drew the line on subsidizing the team further and now the team is a total dud in "big market" LA.  Maybe moving teams isn't so risk free anymore and cities with a long tradition of supporting a team gain a bit more leverage over NFL owners.  Jax should not undersell itself.  And, if we invested these kinds of monies in the community at large, we will do just fine, and maybe better, as a city.

Exactly!!!!

If the Jags left where would the City spend the Bed Tax dollars?  On actual tourism and economic development maybe?  If we can spend the Bed Tax money on Lot J surely we could use it to fix the riverwalks, Friendship Fountain, and other long-neglected items.

I vote for adding a Good Dough Doughnuts franchise to concessions.  Imagine the smell of hot doughnuts wafting through the air...

Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 15, 2019, 10:39:33 AM
In this light, it's interesting what happened in Atlanta when it lost the Thrashers and the Braves (Winnipeg for the Thrashers, the suburbs for the Braves). The mayor at the time, Kasim Reed, said the city was simply unwilling to match what Cobb County was offering for the Braves considering the city's other needs. He focused on the Falcons football and soccer stadium and the development surrounding it, saying the deal they'd worked out there was a revenue generator for the city instead of a drain, as the Braves stadium would be, and had a better chance of inspiring surrounding development and investment. People were upset but he showed that Atlanta is still Atlanta without the Braves playing downtown. When your city has so much else going on, you can be choosy.

The crime in the Turner Field area was legendary. Too many people complained about the crime for me not to think that it wasn't a significant detriment. Turner Field is basically a professional version of Campbell's Field in Camden, NJ (both defunct and razed for the same reason).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_Field

Quote from: pierre on November 15, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
I have a friend that works at the stadium. What he has heard is the plan would be to essentially knock down the upper decks and the ramps and rebuild them with a partial roof, similar to Miami. And that likely for one season the team would play home games in Gainesville or Orlando. The Bears, Seahawks and Vikings have played in college stadiums for a year or two while a stadium was being built or renovated.

I would be fine with an extensive renovation (shade, widened concourses etc), and the team playing a season down in Gville. A reasonable deal between the team and city is without say. 

Quote from: jaxjags on November 16, 2019, 12:28:19 PM
Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

Quote from: Kerry on November 16, 2019, 03:56:57 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on November 16, 2019, 12:28:19 PM
Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

None of the cities you mentioned have as much potential as Jacksonville.

QuoteFor a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars.

I would suggest that Jax leaders wanted a team to divert the attention of the populace away from the low self esteem derived from the incompetence of such leaders to advance the City  ;D.

Los Angeles did fine without an NFL team  8).  So are Austin, San Antonio, Orlando, Portland, now San Diego and St. Louis, up until now Las Vegas, etc.  And, many cities that now have an NFL team got them because they were already on a roll... Charlotte, Nashville, Indianapolis, now Las Vegas, even Los Angeles, etc. 

Also, consider that may sports teams have regional names (New England, Tennessee, Carolina, Texans, Minnesota, Arizona, etc.) that don't clearly link a team to a city and many don't actually play within the city limits of the city they count on for support.  Are those teams putting a city on the map?

Fact is no big league team in any sport is coming to your city if you can't support it from the day it arrives.  That implies the city is already on the map. Jax got a team due to a perception that it was one of those cities.  I would suggest it should be much further along but isn't due to poor leadership and visioning.  No pro team can fix that and they are not a panacea for a city's issues, whatever they may be.

And, be careful what you wish for.  I am not sure if it isn't sometimes a curse to be too well known.  Cities such as Las Vegas and Orlando have been overwhelmed by their growth spurts fueled by their notoriety.  I certainly don't envy those places.  As Jax grows, we are beginning to experience some of the same issues, particularly growth management manifested through urban sprawl, loss of green spaces, declining infrastructure and bottle-necked traffic.  Some of us long-timers may be soon yearning for less populous times.

Jax's growth is very much due to its embedded corporate base, natural assets, good geography, nice weather, location in a tax advantaged state, lower cost of business, diverse economic base, etc.  None of that is attributable to getting a pro sports team.  If the Jags left tomorrow, the only evidence of their presence here would be memories and the stadium with its accompanying taxpayer debt.

In fact, the top reasons I hear from new comers for moving to Jax are the lower cost of living, weather, the water, less traffic headaches, and, surprisingly often, to join relatives or friends already here that exposed them to the niceties of our lifestyle during family visits.  None have ever told me the Jags made a difference in their coming to Jax. 

Lastly, today, your reputation on the internet may do more to promote your city than pro-sports.  There are dozens of "hot cities" that are being boosted by travel review sites (such as Trip Advisor), eco-tourism, social media and making "best places to..." lists.

I might add that I didn't see Amazon listing "having a pro sports team" as one of their criteria for a second HQ's city.

The 'Muh Jags could move for all I care" people are so vociferous....

Quote from: JaGoaT on November 16, 2019, 04:30:51 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 16, 2019, 03:56:57 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on November 16, 2019, 12:28:19 PM
Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

None of the cities you mentioned have as much potential as Jacksonville.

They don't have the potential of Jax because they have already capitalized on it.  All those cities are light years ahead if Jax...and I competely left Austin off the list although they are a State Capitol and home to UT.

Quote
Problem #1:  The $500 million will quickly turn into over $1 billion.  The original rebuild of the stadium experienced similar or greater cost inflation.  Every City building project has done the same (see the Courthouse, etc.).  Call it bait and switch because once you start construction, you are hooked and really can't back out (see JEA Georgia nuclear power plant).

Thus far, with every construction project we've had at the stadium, Khan has offered to pay for overruns as long as he had final say in who did the work.  So, a hard no on anything even remotely resembling the courthouse fiasco.

QuoteProblem #2: What the City really should ask for is stock in Jacksonville Jaguars, Inc.  The City gets virtually no revenue off the Jags activities and bears much of their expenses.  And, national studies have all concluded that pro teams do not add to a community's economy, they subtract from it.  What they add is intangible "psychological rewards" although the way the Jags have played the last few years that may also be up for debate.  Meanwhile, by many reports, the Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought the team.  Maybe we sell JEA and buy the Jags and get their dividends to subsidize the City budget  8)!

I'm not going to dig up a link to verify or disprove your theory, but I'm pretty sure all of the studies have been fairly inconclusive.  QoL matters, but the response you get from people over worth is as contrasting as black is to white.  So while municipalities might have a hard time financially quantifying the benefit of having the team here, I'm sure there are many businesses that can directly tie a large portion of their profits to the 9 weeks a year the Jags are here. 

QuoteProblem #3:  The mayor and City Council will be putty in Khan's hands and give away the City to keep the team.  We should put the subsidies up for a vote:  Give the Jags the subsidies and keep the team or don't give them the subsidies and thank them for the memories.  I would love to see a UNF poll on that!

I'd be OK with this, but the money spent on advertising one view or the other might come close to covering the cost of the upgrade itself.

QuoteProblem #4:  We can extend the lease for 25 to 30 more years but the Jags will be back in 10 years for still more improvements and more subsidies.  They didn't go 25 years on the last lease without multiple asks and don't expect the pattern to change for the next 25 years.

I don't disagree.  But in all honestly, the dealings between Khan, the Jags and the city have gone better than a lot of deals you read about across the country regarding other cities and their sports teams.

QuoteProblem #5:  Given the concerns over concussions, TV saturation, TV quality so good its like being at the game while staying home, more competition for eyeballs, sports fatigue with 24/7 availability, etc., the NFL may be close to its peak popularity.  In 25 years, we may be more interested in virtual reality or watching Jax video game teams pitted against other cities for a global championship (these competitions already fill large arenas on a regular basis).

Which is EXACTLY why this upgrade will have immensely more impact than any video boards or swimming pools or club upgrades.  The biggest complaint I hear is the heat.

QuoteProblem #6:  In 25 years, the stadium may be sitting in a swamp due to the river overflowing its banks due to rising seas.

Football in the mud is awesome!

^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

If it was up to me most of corporate welfare Jax hands out would get rescinded.  If Amazon wants access to the Jax customer base they should have paid full price for it.  Inwould like that $20 million back also.

Quote from: I-10east on November 17, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

^^^Fair enough

Quote from: Adam White on November 18, 2019, 04:11:23 AM

Quote from: I-10east on November 17, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

Obviously Jacksonville would be okay without an NFL team. And everyone's definition of okay would be different.

A one town team losing it's only team would be bad for civil morale, I believe.

The Jaguars (even losing) are a source of pride for Jacksonville residents. It's a reason why Sacramento fought like hell to keep the Kings.

Quote from: copperfiend on November 20, 2019, 09:23:51 AM

Quote from: Adam White on November 18, 2019, 04:11:23 AM

Quote from: I-10east on November 17, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

Obviously Jacksonville would be okay without an NFL team. And everyone's definition of okay would be different.

A one town team losing it's only team would be bad for civil morale, I believe.

The Jaguars (even losing) are a source of pride for Jacksonville residents. It's a reason why Sacramento fought like hell to keep the Kings.

I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Quote from: copperfiend on November 20, 2019, 12:25:05 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Other things that have happened since 1995:

Completion of the St. James Building renovation
Permanent home for MOCA Jax
Major renovation of the Times-Union Center
Northbank Riverwalk, regularly expanded
New Main Library
Jax Arena
Baseball Grounds
Equestrian Center
Daily's Place
About 90% of UNF's campus
Immense expansion and improvement of the zoo
Thousands of acres of preserve lands

Quote from: Tacachale on November 20, 2019, 01:14:32 PM

Quote from: copperfiend on November 20, 2019, 12:25:05 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Other things that have happened since 1995:

Completion of the St. James Building renovation
Permanent home for MOCA Jax
Major renovation of the Times-Union Center
Northbank Riverwalk, regularly expanded
New Main Library
Jax Arena
Baseball Grounds
Equestrian Center
Daily's Place
About 90% of UNF's campus
Immense expansion and improvement of the zoo
Thousands of acres of preserve lands

Yes things have come since then, and just as much has left (see The Landing), and most never materialized at all.  Alas, my focus always has been on the urban core.

Also, Daily's Place IS a Save the Jags expenditure.  The whole purpose of it was to generate revenue for the Jags.  Otherwise, the City would just own it outright and not share profits with the Jags.

Quote from: copperfiend on November 20, 2019, 12:25:05 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Yeah, so what do you think was different about Baltimore, Charlotte, and Nashville that Jax didn't have?  Is it possible they had other things going for them and not just an NFL expansion/relocation?

Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2019, 01:30:56 PM

Quote from: copperfiend on November 20, 2019, 12:25:05 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Yeah, so what do you think was different about Baltimore, Charlotte, and Nashville that Jax didn't have?  Is it possible they had other things going for them and not just an NFL expansion/relocation?

Playing Devil's Advocate, Baltimore fought like crazy for 16 years to get an NFL team back once they lost theirs. So something clearly made them do it.

Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2019, 01:28:27 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 20, 2019, 01:14:32 PM

Quote from: copperfiend on November 20, 2019, 12:25:05 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Other things that have happened since 1995:

Completion of the St. James Building renovation
Permanent home for MOCA Jax
Major renovation of the Times-Union Center
Northbank Riverwalk, regularly expanded
New Main Library
Jax Arena
Baseball Grounds
Equestrian Center
Daily's Place
About 90% of UNF's campus
Immense expansion and improvement of the zoo
Thousands of acres of preserve lands

Yes things have come since then, and just as much has left (see The Landing), and most never materialized at all.  Alas, my focus always has been on the urban core.

Also, Daily's Place IS a Save the Jags expenditure.  The whole purpose of it was to generate revenue for the Jags.  Otherwise, the City would just own it outright and not share profits with the Jags.

It's always something with you. Most of those things *are* in the Urban Core, and the city does own Daily's Place outright. It's also not the case that "just has much has left". San Marco Square, St. Nicholas Town Center, Murray Hill, and King Street have all taken off starting with the Town Center program. Five Points has grown into a hot spot. The point is, the Jaguars didn't take away the ability for those all those things to happen.

Quote from: copperfiend on November 20, 2019, 09:23:51 AM

Quote from: Adam White on November 18, 2019, 04:11:23 AM

Quote from: I-10east on November 17, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

Obviously Jacksonville would be okay without an NFL team. And everyone's definition of okay would be different.

A one town team losing it's only team would be bad for civil morale, I believe.

The Jaguars (even losing) are a source of pride for Jacksonville residents. It's a reason why Sacramento fought like hell to keep the Kings.

My point was more that being opposed to public handouts or the amount of public money that goes to keeping the team in Jax doesn't mean one hates the Jaguars. I am indifferent to the Jags, but think them staying in Jax would be a good thing. However, I think they shouldn't get any (more) public money to do so. If they were entirely self-sufficient and stayed in Jax, that would be great.

Of course, as I no longer live in Jax my opinion is pretty much worthless.

Quote from: Kerry on November 16, 2019, 03:56:57 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on November 16, 2019, 12:28:19 PM
Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

Where?

Quote from: FlaBoy on November 20, 2019, 04:19:22 PM

Quote from: Kerry on November 16, 2019, 03:56:57 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on November 16, 2019, 12:28:19 PM
Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

Where?

Lol, for real.

I'll say that Baltimore is doing okay. The word "thriving" is a bit much; maybe the Inner Harbor, but not so much the city (metro growing at +3.41). Bmore is loaded with ultra-corruption (former mayor just got indicted, and other recent past mayors involved in corruption cases). Poverty up the ass, a lot of racial hostility (Freddie Gray case etc), renegade motorcycle and ATV riders driving recklessly in packs (for the 'culture'), tons of empty/neglected rowhouses, and an obvious high crime rate.

Now for Baltimore's good things; most seem to agree that the Inner Harbor is the place to be in Bmore. Crab cakes are delicious. Affluent areas in the metro (most being out of city limits). The Raven fans really show up for that team (impressive road travellers also). Bmore fans show why there shouldn't have ever been a NFL football hiatus in that city.   

Quote from: I-10east on November 20, 2019, 05:42:14 PM
I'll say that Baltimore is doing okay. The word "thriving" is a bit much; maybe the Inner Harbor, but not so much the city (metro growing at +3.41). Bmore is loaded with ultra-corruption (former mayor just got indicted, and other recent past mayors involved in corruption cases). Poverty up the ass, a lot of racial hostility (Freddie Gray case etc), renegade motorcycle and ATV riders driving recklessly in packs (for the 'culture'), tons of empty/neglected rowhouses, and an obvious high crime rate.

Now for Baltimore's good things; most seem to agree that the Inner Harbor is the place to be in Bmore. Crab cakes are delicious. Affluent areas in the metro (most being out of city limits). The Raven fans really show up for that team (impressive road travellers also). Bmore fans show why there shouldn't have ever been a NFL football hiatus in that city.

I'm an Orioles fan, but I'd not want to live in Baltimore. It may have a lot of great things and it might not be the crime hotspot it used to be - but it's still a bit too "real" for my taste!

Lifelong O's fan here (and Ravens fan for the last 20+ years) - and I'd very proudly live in Baltimore!

oh and Steve - Baltimore was only without an NFL team for 12 years, not 16 ;)

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 20, 2019, 09:44:30 PM
Lifelong O's fan here (and Ravens fan for the last 20+ years) - and I'd very proudly live in Baltimore!

oh and Steve - Baltimore was only without an NFL team for 12 years, not 16 ;)

Not sure how I had 16. 1996-1984. Whoops.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 20, 2019, 09:44:30 PM
Lifelong O's fan here...

I knew I liked you.

Oh yeah another great thing about Bmore; in speaking of the O's, Oriole Park at Camden Yards started the retro stadium craze (phasing out the horrid multipurpose cookie cutter monstrosities like Veterans Stadium, Riverfront Stadium etc.)

Quote from: I-10east on November 21, 2019, 04:46:56 PM
Oh yeah another great thing about Bmore; in speaking of the O's, Oriole Park at Camden Yards started the retro stadium craze (phasing out the horrid multipurpose cookie cutter monstrosities like Veterans Stadium, Riverfront Stadium etc.)

Fun fact: our Baseball Grounds was designed with Camden Yards in mind. One reason it's so successful.

^^^True that.

Just curious, but what part of The Baseball Grounds was inspired by Camden Yards?

Quote from: Kerry on November 23, 2019, 10:49:22 PM
Just curious, but what part of The Baseball Grounds was inspired by Camden Yards?

The whole thing, probably.

I think it could be considered a 'retro classic' style park, which is a style that became popular after Camden Yards was built. Camden Yards inspired a whole new (or "old") approach to ballpark design.

If I had one thing to critique concerning the retro style (which I think is a positive overall IMO, don't get me wrong) is the ever constant color scheme that normally consists of brown brick and green trim; changing up that repetitive color scheme (while keeping the retro style) wouldn't hurt. Of course the Marlins is one of the few teams that went all out anti-retro, and it's ballpark's color scheme is very interesting (and questionable) to say the least. 

Quote from: Adam White on November 24, 2019, 04:54:57 AM

Quote from: Kerry on November 23, 2019, 10:49:22 PM
Just curious, but what part of The Baseball Grounds was inspired by Camden Yards?

The whole thing, probably.

I think it could be considered a 'retro classic' style park, which is a style that became popular after Camden Yards was built. Camden Yards inspired a whole new (or "old") approach to ballpark design.

Yeah, the whole concept. The "retro" design at that time was meant to be a return to making a good place to watch baseball rather than cramming people in or doing a multi-use thing. As I recall some of the specific features include walkways with vendors so that people can walk around the entire ballpark and still get a view of the game, the "picnic" area, and the general old school look.

I love the Jacksonville Baseball Grounds, it offers a really high-quality experience for good prices, and the whole environment is a lot of affordable fun, even if the Shrimp aren't winning. $2 beers, $2 hotdogs, candied pralines, the ability to enjoy the game from a ton of different perspectives, it's a very charming place.

Thanks.  I personally love the style of the park and that you can get concessions without leaving view of the field.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 24, 2019, 10:38:46 AM

Quote from: Adam White on November 24, 2019, 04:54:57 AM

Quote from: Kerry on November 23, 2019, 10:49:22 PM
Just curious, but what part of The Baseball Grounds was inspired by Camden Yards?

The whole thing, probably.

I think it could be considered a 'retro classic' style park, which is a style that became popular after Camden Yards was built. Camden Yards inspired a whole new (or "old") approach to ballpark design.

Yeah, the whole concept. The "retro" design at that time was meant to be a return to making a good place to watch baseball rather than cramming people in or doing a multi-use thing. As I recall some of the specific features include walkways with vendors so that people can walk around the entire ballpark and still get a view of the game, the "picnic" area, and the general old school look.

It's a great stadium.

Watching this game and asking myself, "Would it really suck if the Jaguars left Jacksonville?"

New stadium.....?

The entire Jaguar organization from player up to front office is totally inept.  No discipline, lack of effort, same mistakes over and over, poor coaching, poor personnel decisions.  A total renovation is needed.

11 pass attempts to L Fournette so far..............  Not sure where that is coming from.

lame game. at least we got 20 on the scoreboard, I thought we were gonna be a total blowout at 3 pts total.

That's about all I can say about this one...

I gave up when the Flaming Thumbtacks got their 3rd TD in less than 5 minutes.
Were our scores against their practice squad?

Their season is done but I do appreciate the two garbage TDs by Fournette. At least it helped in one of my fantasy leagues.

Wonder if they'll go ahead and move groundbreaking up at Lot J. Construction was scheduled to begin on Monday after the AFC Championship game. I'm quite sure we're mathematically eliminated from hosting at this point.

^Council hasn't approved the incentives deal.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 24, 2019, 10:13:06 PM
^Council hasn't approved the incentives deal.

A minor detail.  I'm sure Lenny and Shad K. can work out a deal over drinks at the River Club.  Getting Council approval is just a technicality.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 24, 2019, 10:42:38 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 24, 2019, 10:13:06 PM
^Council hasn't approved the incentives deal.

A minor detail.  I'm sure Lenny and Shad K. can work out a deal over drinks at the River Club.  Getting Council approval is just a technicality.

Shad K will sign the agreement and will want to "get the hell out."  Shad K knows that Jacksonville needs a "better private club experience".

LMAO