This sounds expensive: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/12/05/mayors-administration-commits-to-relocating-jail.html?ana=e_du_prem&s=article_du&ed=2018-12-05&u=XALuhoKTfQRT3OObZ9UHWw0505842d&t=1544045861&j=85376321
Any suggestions where we should put it?
Oh come on. I am no fan of the jail, but cannot imagine it is currently worth the expense to demo and rebuild elsewhere.
Those funds could be used to incentivize countless other projects in the core, which would have a much broader impact.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
This is insane.
I had read that by 2030 it would be at end of life. If true, then it has to happen anyway.
Personally, I have no issue with this, assuming the new location makes sense. One thing that came out of the Courthouse discussion was that originally Delaney wanted to locate the new Courthouse near the jail....until he learned that the time consuming process is loading the prisoners on the bus; not the transport itself.
In other words, if near downtown it wouldn't be a major increase in time to transport.
I'm skeptical the jail goes anywhere anytime soon. If they can't afford a convention center, they aren't moving a perfectly fine multi-story jail either.
Is it just me, or is Jax broke? Where did all the money go?
They should just cover it with Christmas lights
Just read the article. No I don't see COJ coming up with $400 million to move the jail soon. You could build a "logical" convention center for cheaper than that. However, the most interesting thing in this story is representatives from the mayor's office and Sleiman enterprises participating in the same panel discussion on the same stage. Bravo, JBJ!
For the record, I do agree with the Sleiman and Jacobs guys. The Landing is well suited to benefit from the current and proposed development projects taking place around it. It also makes sense to address the convention center issue sooner rather than later. Capitalize on the momentum of supportive private sector hotel, restaurant and entertainment projects being proposed right now and also get that thing out of the old terminal so it can become a train station again.
Thankfully it doesn't sound super commital, more of a campaign promise.
"It would be a shock to me if four or five years from now there's not either a very advanced plan or even execution of a plan to relocate the jail outside of the core."
To Lake's point, where do we find $400 million out of the general fund (we're lucky if the state kicks in $50 million) to move the jail, when we can't afford to develop a convention center creatively finance over three decades?
I might be wrong Steve, but I think the 2030 estimate from the JSO wasn't structural end-of-life, but their estimate as to when they expected to reach max capacity for staff and inmates.
SO MANY OTHER THINGS you could do with that money.
The only way I see it happening in the next five years is if the city finds itself on the recieving end of a major economic windfall (*coughJEAcough*).
Quote from: thelakelander on December 05, 2018, 07:44:05 PM
However, the most interesting thing in this story is representatives from the mayor's office and Sleiman enterprises participating in the same panel discussion on the same stage. Bravo, JBJ!
I loved this last line:
Quote"I believe, after 31 years, (the Landing's) time has come to truly effectuate the type of momentum and serve as catalyst to reinvigorate downtown as opposed to try to survive and sustain in a singular way without any ancillary support from both population or commercial activity," McNaughton said. "I'm incredibly optimistic, and with 38 years left on our lease, we couldn't be happier."
Quote from: KenFSU on December 05, 2018, 07:50:05 PM
Thankfully it doesn't sound super commital, more of a campaign promise.
"It would be a shock to me if four or five years from now there's not either a very advanced plan or even execution of a plan to relocate the jail outside of the core."
To Lake's point, where do we find $400 million out of the general fund (we're lucky if the state kicks in $50 million) to move the jail, when we can't afford to develop a convention center creatively finance over three decades?
I might be wrong Steve, but I think the 2030 estimate from the JSO wasn't structural end-of-life, but their estimate as to when they expected to reach max capacity for staff and inmates.
SO MANY OTHER THINGS you could do with that money.
The only way I see it happening in the next five years is if the city finds itself on the recieving end of a major economic windfall (*coughJEAcough*).
I'd have to find my source. You could definitely be right
I don't see all of those pleas to move the jail like I often saw LOL
It would be great to move the jail. I think Jacksonville would really benefit from a riverfront parking lot.
Quote from: I-10east on December 06, 2018, 01:53:36 AM
I don't see all of those pleas to move the jail like I often saw LOL
Moving the jail has always seemed like a suburbanite's solution to DT revitalization. It's right up there with demolishing buildings because they're vacant. Just an expensive public expenditure that doesn't do anything other than put money in the pockets of those doing the demolition and the rebuilding. What's next? Running Maxwell House and North Florida Shipyards off?
The problem with the jail (and police station) is that it is ugly. The butalist architecture that so many cities use is the problem. There are lots of beautiful prisons, jails, and police stations.
This is the new police station and jail in downtown Edmond, OK. No one would have a problem living next door to this.
(http://fsb-ae.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/City-of-Edmond_Edmond-PSC_Exterior_Edmond-OK.jpg)
That's a bad reason to spend $400 million. The police station is mid century modern. It would be a pretty cool building if renovated back to its original design. I'll see if I can find a few pics.
Quote from: Kerry on December 06, 2018, 07:59:43 AM
The problem with the jail (and police station) is that it is ugly. The butalist architecture that so many cities use is the problem. There are lots of beautiful prisons, jails, and police stations.
This is the new police station and jail in downtown Edmond, OK. No one would have a problem living next door to this.
(http://fsb-ae.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/City-of-Edmond_Edmond-PSC_Exterior_Edmond-OK.jpg)
I think that police station is ugly, sorry.
I do like a lot of brutalist architecture and have no issues with the police station. I actually quite like it. The jail isn't great.
Some pictures of the JSO building when it was initially completed. It was designed with a rooftop park and garden:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-xSqSpNF/0/L/Police%20Building-3-L.jpg)
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-wxqvNCP/0/L/Police%20Building-L.jpg)
There's a similar building in Oakland, CA that's been allowed to mature as originally designed:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-ScZqPh5/0/L/Oakland_Museum-7_aerial-L.jpg)
The Oakland building is a museum.
The jail doesn't have to be torn down. They could just reclad it, or even outline it white lights, and it would greatly improve it. The Embarcadero Center in San Francisco looks like a jail during the day, but at night is pretty cool.
(https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/blog/2016/Embarcadero%20Lighting.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2018, 08:57:54 AM
There's a similar building in Oakland, CA that's been allowed to mature as originally designed:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-ScZqPh5/0/L/Oakland_Museum-7_aerial-L.jpg)
The Oakland building is a museum.
That looks great - from a helicopter. The sidewalk view is a total disaster. Jeff Speck just got a cold shudder and doesn't know why. Go to Google Earth street-view and check it out.
This is probably a good time to repost this for those who haven't seen it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ&t=504s
I think the jail is ugly, but I've never heard that mentioned as the reason people don't want to be around it. People are afraid of jails because of the people going in and out of them regardless of how logical that sentiment is. The police station is a building worth saving, but I think we'll need to find a new use for it. A museum maybe? There are a lot of efficiencies created within JSO by having the jail adjacent to the police headquarters.
I am a little concerned that Curry thinks this is something worth spending money on now. The jail is almost entirely constructed internally of cement block...it isn't the type of building that is going to start falling apart and need serious maintenance costs. Think of the amount of new residential we could incentivize to be built downtown for $400mil. Even if we only pulled in an additional 4,000 residents (at an absurd cost of $100k per resident), I think that would be enough to start organic growth downtown.
Quote from: Kerry on December 06, 2018, 09:07:53 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2018, 08:57:54 AM
There's a similar building in Oakland, CA that's been allowed to mature as originally designed:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-ScZqPh5/0/L/Oakland_Museum-7_aerial-L.jpg)
The Oakland building is a museum.
That looks great - from a helicopter. The sidewalk view is a total disaster. Jeff Speck just got a cold shudder and doesn't know why. Go to Google Earth street-view and check it out.
It's not the best but given the context of that site and use of the building it's not the worst.
As for Jeff Speck.....I personally witnessed that guy get roasted at a Next City Vanguard presentation in Montreal. When it came to thinking about cities and urban issues outside the perspective of an older white man....he came across as "antiquated" to say the least.
Quote from: remc86007 on December 06, 2018, 09:13:58 AM
I think the jail is ugly, but I've never heard that mentioned as the reason people don't want to be around it. People are afraid of jails because of the people going in and out of them regardless of how logical that sentiment is. The police station is a building worth saving, but I think we'll need to find a new use for it. A museum maybe? There are a lot of efficiencies created within JSO by having the jail adjacent to the police headquarters.
I am a little concerned that Curry thinks this is something worth spending money on now. The jail is almost entirely constructed internally of cement block...it isn't the type of building that is going to start falling apart and need serious maintenance costs. Think of the amount of new residential we could incentivize to be built downtown for $400mil. Even if we only pulled in an additional 4,000 residents (at an absurd cost of $100k per resident), I think that would be enough to start organic growth downtown.
For me - everything east of Liberty St is a lost cause anyway. With LaVilla, Brooklyn, the Southbank, and the CBD all available for in-fill and redevelopment, the area east of Liberty is way down the list of desirable human habitation. Let's get real, there is only 1 reason there is any interest east of Liberty - the Jags.
^I agree that in terms of what the market is, what's actually taking place right now, where the density to build up is, etc., east of Liberty probably should not be the major revitalization priority. Of course, there should be a long term plan in place and assistance for those seeking to energize that area, but it shouldn't come at the expense of what's naturally taking place.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2018, 08:57:54 AM
Some pictures of the JSO building when it was initially completed. It was designed with a rooftop park and garden:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-xSqSpNF/0/L/Police%20Building-3-L.jpg)
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-wxqvNCP/0/L/Police%20Building-L.jpg)
There's a similar building in Oakland, CA that's been allowed to mature as originally designed:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-ScZqPh5/0/L/Oakland_Museum-7_aerial-L.jpg)
The Oakland building is a museum.
I was talking to my dad the other day about the police building. Apparently the reason the plants were removed is that they were causing extensive leaks inside the building.
Locationwise, it made a lot more sense back when it was built and there were working shipyards across the street. It was an industrial area then with a huge rat problem because of the docks. Today it's seen as a bad location, but back then no one but the government wanted to develop the land.
IMO, if we're talking about long-term strategy rather than an imminent move, that's a good thing. The jail and police buildings will be obsolete one day and we need to have a plan to replace them. There are likely to be better options than the waterfront. But spending $400 now to raze a functional building when we have other needs is not a wise idea.
More info on the jail:
QuoteRecent comments from one of Mayor Lenny Curry's top lieutenants has reignited the longstanding dream of city leaders that the hulking Jacksonville Sheriff's Office headquarters and jail on downtown's waterfront could one day be relocated.
Here's the reality: It's not happening anytime soon.
City Hall's budget as currently constituted simply can't pay for a project that could cost nearly $400 million — at least not without a massive change in the city's priorities, a sudden windfall of new money or mountains of new debt.
In response to a question from a Jacksonville Business Journal reporter at a panel on downtown development, Brian Hughes, Curry's chief of staff, said, "There's no reason to have a centrally located downtown jail in the modern era."
"It would be a shock to me if four or five years from now there's not either a very advanced plan or even execution of a plan to relocate the jail outside of the core."
There is evidence Curry views moving the jail as a long-term goal, but the city has no money to do it — at least for the foreseeable future.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20181206/no-duval-county-jail-is-not-moving-out-of-downtown
When does all the cash start rolling in from the corporate welfare handouts? We can use the giant videoboard and swimming pool profits to fund part of it.
Quote from: Kerry on December 06, 2018, 11:18:12 AM
When does all the cash start rolling in from the corporate welfare handouts? We can use the giant videoboard and swimming pool profits to fund part of it.
Oh, don't be silly, that money's for the Jaguars!
We'll just sell JEA to pay for this. Clearly moving the jail is the key to downtown revitalization! Our great Leader Curry will not REST until everything east of the Hyatt is either grass or owned by Shad Khan.
If the City just put 1/10 the effort into LaVilla and Brooklyn that they do into East of Liberty we could have some serious urban fabric by now
From everything I've seen, this talk is to get the ball rolling. This building will be well past 50 years old by the time any shovels hit the dirt. There's nothing wrong with scrapping anything that old to better meet the community's needs.
I'm not sure there is a real need to get the ball rolling with the future of this specific site anymore than anything else related to Downtown. It's 2018. Will it even be fifty by 2035? This would be one of those things where having a real downtown vision, master plan and associated implementation timeline comes in handy. As discussed currently, one of my concerns is it would appear to be an expensive item being handled in a vacuum with little understanding of what a shift (and shift to where) will have on the overall downtown redevelopment picture and market as a whole.
The price for replacing the buildings in the complex is only part of the cost. There are costs to keeping it as is, where it is today. For example, how might the east side of downtown look if it wasn't full of bail bonds offices? What other sort of unseen costs are there?Other opportunity costs?
It's easy to see the big cost of rebuilding all the complex. But those things wouldn't need to be done at once nor all together, if ever. The police HQ, the memorial building and the jail do not need to all be co-located. The majority of what JSO does is not housing inmates. Most of it's office needs don't need to be located next to the jail.
The current complex was designed and built at a time when Riverplace Tower was the tallest building in Florida. It was designed and built at a time with from there to Commodore Point was a string of gritty, dirty, industrial shipping docks. It was designed and built at a time when people believe city-county consolidation was going to make things better, not harder.
A lot, a whole heck of a lot, has changed since then.
I hear what you're saying but my point is that you apply that logic to a lot of other issues facing the city. For example, the Northwest side of the city is still waiting for infrastructure promises made before consolidation. What are the opportunity costs for providing the infrastructure necessary for economic stabilization and rebirth that's larger, denser, more populated and more authentic to Jax's historic culture? So when we start making it a priority to possibly spend $400 million on replacing something that still has decades of life left, you can't blame taxpayers for being concerned about misplaced priorities and investments coming at the expense of long time unfulfilled quality of life promises.
Looks like Curry is serious about moving the jail sooner than later. When it comes to the funding: "we'll figure it out".
It's extremely clear he's going to attempt to do everything Khan wants, to try and fit the start of the Shipyards/Lot J development into this economic cycle: "Right now we have real capital, real money that is ready to go in the entertainment district. We can't miss this window. We cannot miss this window."
Tick tock.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/12/10/mayor-curry-doubles-down-on-promise-to-move-jail.html
the point he makes about generating greater revenue through taxes is a good one. I'd sure like to see that spreadsheet...
Quote from: downtownbrown on December 10, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
the point he makes about generating greater revenue through taxes is a good one. I'd sure like to see that spreadsheet...
I don't think it would be a pretty spreadsheet.
We're talking simple supply and demand here.
Between Met Park, the Shipyards, Berkman II, and the Courthouse/Annex site, the city of Jacksonville is sitting on nearly
100 acres of prime riverfront real estate that we've barely been able to give away for free in the last 10 years.
Once the Jags/Cordish complete the first phase of their Lot J project and the Hart Bridge ramps come down, we'll
still be sitting on 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate.
Where's the market demand for a few acres two blocks off the riverfront coming from? And how in the world is the price tag that property commands going to justify a $400 million relocation of the jail?
$400 million is what we paid for Veterans Arena, the Baseball Grounds, the Main Library, and Daily's Place
combined, with enough left over to build the Emerald Necklace 5 times over.
Squeeze another 15-20 years of life out of the prison where it's at, see what happens with all this other development, and then create the spreadsheet.
It's crazy to me that we're prioritizing tearing down the Hart Bridge ramps, making long-term convention center decisions, and potentially spending $400 million to relocate the jail based on unsigned, speculative plans by the Jags to develop badly contaminated land.
All of this comes with an opportunity cost.
Can you imagine what we could have done with the $100 million that we've burned in the last three years turning the Courthouse and Annex into a gravel lot?
Quote from: downtownbrown on December 10, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
the point he makes about generating greater revenue through taxes is a good one. I'd sure like to see that spreadsheet...
He should make it for the Northside, which has been deprived of promised infrastructure investments by the city for 50 years.
Quote from: KenFSU on December 10, 2018, 04:51:46 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on December 10, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
the point he makes about generating greater revenue through taxes is a good one. I'd sure like to see that spreadsheet...
I don't think it would be a pretty spreadsheet.
We're talking simple supply and demand here.
Between Met Park, the Shipyards, Berkman II, and the Courthouse/Annex site, the city of Jacksonville is sitting on nearly 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate that we've barely been able to give away for free in the last 10 years.
Once the Jags/Cordish complete the first phase of their Lot J project and the Hart Bridge ramps come down, we'll still be sitting on 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate.
Where's the market demand for a few acres two blocks off the riverfront coming from? And how in the world is the price tag that property commands going to justify a $400 million relocation of the jail?
$400 million is what we paid for Veterans Arena, the Baseball Grounds, the Main Library, and Daily's Place combined, with enough left over to build the Emerald Necklace 5 times over.
Squeeze another 15-20 years of life out of the prison where it's at, see what happens with all this other development, and then create the spreadsheet.
It's crazy to me that we're prioritizing tearing down the Hart Bridge ramps, making long-term convention center decisions, and potentially spending $400 million to relocate the jail based on unsigned, speculative plans by the Jags to develop badly contaminated land.
All of this comes with an opportunity cost.
Can you imagine what we could have done with the $100 million that we've burned in the last three years turning the Courthouse and Annex into a gravel lot?
The Shipyards won't be done in 15-20 years much less the District, Khan or no Khan. The market can only absorb so much for a metropolitan area our size.
Quote from: KenFSU on December 10, 2018, 04:51:46 PM
Can you imagine what we could have done with the $100 million that we've burned in the last three years turning the Courthouse and Annex into a gravel lot?
We could have given $500,000 grants to 200 businesses to move downtown. A lot of people could open a successful business for that kind of money!
Hmm - I was sure I posted on this thread, but don't see it now. Will try to remember what I said ... :(
^Did you call Stephen's abuse of moderator powers into question?
If so, it's against the rules.
It can only be done in private.
It's healthier that way.
Wouldn't dare do that.
Some thoughts about moving the pre-trial detention facility, and JSO HQ.
1. It was mentioned earlier that one reason to consider moving the jail is that it will reach prisoner capacity in a few years.
.a. How would it affect capacity for local prisoners awaiting trial, if we didn't contract out space for state (and federal) prisoners? How would stopping this practice affect the operating budget?
.b. How will the legalization of recreational marijuana affect jail population figures. Given the long-term view for the new/relocated facility, I expect that legal pot will happen within that time-frame.
2. What does the $400 Million cost include?
.a. Does it include demolition of the existing facilities? As mentioned, perhaps the Police Memorial Building could be re-purposed, but I don't see what else you can do with a building designed to incarcerate people. If demo is not included, how much does it increase the $400 million; or decrease the purchase price?
.b. Looking at an aerial of the site, it seems only logical that the Hart Ramps to/from Forsyth and Adams Streets be removed. Does that become part of the relocation cost? Removing those ramps will "square up" the parcel; and, of course, improve the views from/of the site.
3. I would love to see an opportunity cost analysis of this project, especially in comparison to other potential uses of nearly (over?) a half-billion dollars; for example, the long-promised, and much-needed, infrastructure improvements in NW Jax.
4. To bl8's comment, "The police HQ, the memorial building and the jail do not need to all be co-located." Aren't the "police HQ" and the "memorial building" one and the same?
[engage snark mode] Maybe JSO's HQ can be moved to Lot J? [end snark mode]
The Pre Trial Detention facility is already beyond capacity. Inmates are routinely transported back and forth to county jail because of overcrowding. Bonds are frequently reduced or eliminated and charges dropped because the Fire Marshall routinely determines there are to many inmates in the facility and inmates need to be moved or released.
Inmates are placed 3 to a cell designed for only 2 and since there are too many inmates for available cells, the remainder sleep in large scale tupper ware containers on the floor affectionately referred to as 'boat beds.'
The Justice Department already is closing monitoring the operation of PTD because of perceived shortcomings in operations and rights violations.
This is about more than just real estate.
Here's an idea: Build a smaller jail located somewhere between Shands and the Courthouse - two of the major trips that inmates have to take on a regular basis.
OH...
and stop arresting people for petty drug crimes and driver license infractions.
*the second part is key in making my plan work.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on December 11, 2018, 10:28:26 AM
Here's an idea: Build a smaller jail located somewhere between Shands and the Courthouse - two of the major trips that inmates have to take on a regular basis.
OH...
and stop arresting people for petty drug crimes and driver license infractions.
*the second part is key in making my plan work.
A key part for personal reasons? ;)
icarus, I had no idea.
Non-Redneck has a good idea about the minor drug offenses.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on December 11, 2018, 10:28:26 AM
Here's an idea: Build a smaller jail located somewhere between Shands and the Courthouse - two of the major trips that inmates have to take on a regular basis.
No thanks. Sugar Hill, Durkeeville and LaVilla have had enough of COJ's socially inequitable redevelopment schemes. Build it in one of SJTC's parking lots.
Would rather see the area around UF Health developed into a medical/healthcare oriented district with dense infill market-rate development that would never be approved in places like Springfield, San Marco or Riverside.
QuoteOH...
and stop arresting people for petty drug crimes and driver license infractions.
This.
How about building it out west, on or near 103rd street and Cecil Commerce Center, so at least the inmates can walk from the jail to the bus line and back into town or wherever they live within Duval. Out west (western Duval County) seems logical to me. And if they have a hard time getting back home or into town, then maybe that would be a "lesson learned" and they will think twice next time about getting into trouble.
Quote from: heights unknown on December 11, 2018, 09:14:43 PM
How about building it out west, on or near 103rd street and Cecil Commerce Center, so at least the inmates can walk from the jail to the bus line and back into town or wherever they live within Duval. Out west (western Duval County) seems logical to me. And if they have a hard time getting back home or into town, then maybe that would be a "lesson learned" and they will think twice next time about getting into trouble.
This is the general area that Gullford floated when discussing the detention release facility as well, several years ago.