(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/San-Diego-March-2018/i-4CZCrdv/0/56c02f74/L/20180320_185637-L.jpg)
Seven years after the launch of Florida's first bike share programs, a system has failed to materialize in Jacksonville. However, four experienced companies are prepared make Jacksonville's days as the largest city in the United States without a bike share system come to an end.
Full article: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/bike-share-program-proposed-for-jacksonville/
Personally a big fan of Lime. The e-bikes and electronic scooters are very user-friendly.
Doesn't look like JTA has had much coordination with COJ on this RFP, so I'm curious as to how Lime's dockless system would be received by the current administration at City Hall. The optimist in me hopes they would be favourable, as Lime's business model requires no public subsidies to operate and the company has a proven track record in attracting riders in the markets they serve. Was recently in Columbus, OH and saw just as many people on the scooters and bikes than I've seen in much larger cities... was pretty impressive.
I'm interested in seeing how entities like JTA and COJ will respond to dockless systems as well. It seems like bike stations and their expensive equipment are quickly going the way of the dinosaur. I hope we don't try to force companies into investing in such infrastructure while also telling them to be operationally self sustaining.
Love this, particularly if dockless.
My house is a 60 second walk from one of the new First Coast Flyer stations on the East Corridor.
Would love to take it and buy 30 minutes of extra productivity in the morning and evening, but limited mobility once downtown concerns me a little.
Bikeshare (and/or scootershare) would be such a great, useful solution.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 02, 2018, 10:00:59 AM
Personally a big fan of Lime. The e-bikes and electronic scooters are very user-friendly.
Doesn't look like JTA has had much coordination with COJ on this RFP, so I'm curious as to how Lime's dockless system would be received by the current administration at City Hall. The optimist in me hopes they would be favourable, as Lime's business model requires no public subsidies to operate and the company has a proven track record in attracting riders in the markets they serve. Was recently in Columbus, OH and saw just as many people on the scooters and bikes than I've seen in much larger cities... was pretty impressive.
How do the mechanics of the program work if Dockless?
Quote from: Steve on November 02, 2018, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on November 02, 2018, 10:00:59 AM
Personally a big fan of Lime. The e-bikes and electronic scooters are very user-friendly.
Doesn't look like JTA has had much coordination with COJ on this RFP, so I'm curious as to how Lime's dockless system would be received by the current administration at City Hall. The optimist in me hopes they would be favourable, as Lime's business model requires no public subsidies to operate and the company has a proven track record in attracting riders in the markets they serve. Was recently in Columbus, OH and saw just as many people on the scooters and bikes than I've seen in much larger cities... was pretty impressive.
How do the mechanics of the program work if Dockless?
Pretty simple. They lock in place, so riders can literally leave them anywhere when they're done. When you want to pick up you look at a map showing where every single available bike is.
Yes, there are two obvious issues: 1) you can't necessarily count on them being in any particular location when you need them. 2) people can leave them in places that are inconvenient, hazardous, unattractive, etc.
Issue one is often alleviated by just the sheer number of the bicycles placed all over town. But this exacerbates issue #2.
You can google the sea of bikes littered literally like a landfill in city blocks in China. I've personally seen them blocking sidewalks, hanging in trees, and in the middle of the street in cities around the US. Here in Doral I am a member of "Spin" and I have seen people keep them outside their house in a gated community. Effectively turning them into their own personal bikes lol.
I believe there will be much more evolution in these systems and hopefully at some point in the near future there will be a smoother way to ensure the bikes are placed in safe and appropriate locations...before too many cities turn against these bikes.
I assume the scooters work in a similar fashion?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 03, 2018, 07:22:07 AM
I assume the scooters work in a similar fashion?
Yes, but scooters are a lot less expensive so more can be put in service but the big difference is that the scooters need to be recharged on a regular basis so they are collected and repositioned. Some cities are now requiring Lime and Bird scooters to be parked in Lime trees and Bird cages (just painted boxes on the ground) or the city confiscated them.
Just in case it wasn't hard enough trying to get the city to make sure we have some decent sidewalks, we're going to plague them with random bicycles left everywhere.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/10/05/abandoned-vandalized-and-illegally-parked-bike-share-bikes-now-a-d-c-problem/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.933ceef52ed4
Or perhaps there's a middle ground that creates more access and enhanced connectivity for all? We know what the problems are. The key is to implement and maintain while avoiding the negatives of poorly maintained and managed systems. At the s5ame time, regardless of bike share, we should be fixing our sidewalks and streets. Nevertheless, we're not alone in that battle and we're certainly not the city with the poorest infrastructure to also have bike share. I've been to cities with potholes that will swallow cars, yet they've been able to implement many of the same things discussed here.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 04, 2018, 03:38:32 PM
Or perhaps there's a middle ground that creates more access and enhanced connectivity for all? We know what the problems are. The key is to implement and maintain while avoiding the negatives of poorly maintained and managed systems. At the same time, regardless of bike share, we should be fixing or sidewalks and streets. Nevertheless, we're not alone in that battle and we're certainly not the city with the poorest infrastructure to also have bike share. I've been to cities with potholes that will swallow cars, yet they've been able to implement many of the same things discussed here.
Battle Creek, Michigan (https://battlecreek.bcycle.com/) has bike share. Enough said.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on November 04, 2018, 02:54:06 PM
Just in case it wasn't hard enough trying to get the city to make sure we have some decent sidewalks, we're going to plague them with random bicycles left everywhere.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/10/05/abandoned-vandalized-and-illegally-parked-bike-share-bikes-now-a-d-c-problem/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.933ceef52ed4
Maybe we should at least have bike lanes first. Total disconnect between JTA and the City
Tell that to Tampa, Orlando and Miami! We're all in the same position and they've had bike share for years. It's fine improving things simultaneously. At the end of the day, we won't have bike share if private companies feel the market can't support it.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 03, 2018, 07:22:07 AM
I assume the scooters work in a similar fashion?
I think so, except that they don't seem to inspire quite as bad treatment. I guess that's probably just the nature of the object itself.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 02, 2018, 10:48:26 PM
Quote from: Steve on November 02, 2018, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on November 02, 2018, 10:00:59 AM
Personally a big fan of Lime. The e-bikes and electronic scooters are very user-friendly.
Doesn't look like JTA has had much coordination with COJ on this RFP, so I'm curious as to how Lime's dockless system would be received by the current administration at City Hall. The optimist in me hopes they would be favourable, as Lime's business model requires no public subsidies to operate and the company has a proven track record in attracting riders in the markets they serve. Was recently in Columbus, OH and saw just as many people on the scooters and bikes than I've seen in much larger cities... was pretty impressive.
How do the mechanics of the program work if Dockless?
Pretty simple. They lock in place, so riders can literally leave them anywhere when they're done. When you want to pick up you look at a map showing where every single available bike is.
Yes, there are two obvious issues: 1) you can't necessarily count on them being in any particular location when you need them. 2) people can leave them in places that are inconvenient, hazardous, unattractive, etc.
Issue one is often alleviated by just the sheer number of the bicycles placed all over town. But this exacerbates issue #2.
You can google the sea of bikes littered literally like a landfill in city blocks in China. I've personally seen them blocking sidewalks, hanging in trees, and in the middle of the street in cities around the US. Here in Doral I am a member of "Spin" and I have seen people keep them outside their house in a gated community. Effectively turning them into their own personal bikes lol.
I believe there will be much more evolution in these systems and hopefully at some point in the near future there will be a smoother way to ensure the bikes are placed in safe and appropriate locations...before too many cities turn against these bikes.
Makes sense - I definitely can see the issue with bikes being left anywhere. The Dock does help that.
Of course....the dock also creates the challenge - you have to drop off at a dock.
I'd also think routine maintenance would be harder with a dockless setup as now the maintenance folks need go find the bike all over creation.
I'd trust the opinion of those that have used the setup more than mine. I've used Bike Shares in a few cities but all were returned to a dock.
Thinking about the more and reading a separate thread - it seems like the location of a bike in a dockless model could be a problem unless you just litter the city with bikes. With a docked station you have a reasonable expectation the bike will be there. Suppose I ride a bike to a restaurant, and leave my bike outside and someone takes the bike. The next nearest bike is a half mile away - not ideal.
Now, I'm assuming there's some way for me to "keep the meter running" so to speak and hang on to the bike. But, if I take it to work then I'm holding onto the bike for 8 hours and not using it. Not sure that's ideal.
Like I said I've never used a dockless setup, so I don't know for sure. Docks have their own challenges too (can't be cheap, and what if the dock was full)?
Seems like a better option is to set up a dockless model, but require dropoff at particular places (street corner, etc) and the operator just tosses a fence up. This doesn't have the infrastructure of a dock, but would then corral the bikes (thereby eliminating the issue of bikes everywhere), and there isn't a set number of bikes that a dock could have (someone could just squeeze one more in there). Might take up more room than the dock but there isn't the infrastructure.
Wow, look at these costs for a bike station:
ftp://ftp.ashevillenc.gov/Transportation/Transportation%20Planning/MichaelBlau/Bikeshare%20research/Bikeshare%20Digital%20Reference%20Library/CaBi%20DC%20Station%20Costs.pdf
It would be much cheaper to hire a couple of college kids to drive around to make sure a decent number of bikes are located at dockless hubs. That resolves the reliability problem while also providing more end user friendly flexibility and keeps a company from dropping a minimum of $50k on the installation of each station and another $12k annually in their maintenance.
^Nevermind, I see that's a way for the bike share company to make money to survive. This study of Baton Rouge's bike share estimated their costs at $4,000 per station (page 38):
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56bba43086db4378db7e026d/t/5813b5b1d482e97e5eb54ca0/1477686710889/2016_10_19_5518_BatonRougeBikeshare+%28COMPLETE+REPORT%29.pdf
Interesting read. Data from cities that have both: https://medium.com/transit-app/docked-vs-dockless-bikes-five-months-in-a86ac801f4c7
Quote from: thelakelander on November 05, 2018, 09:58:04 AM
^Nevermind, I see that's a way for the bike share company to make money to survive. This study of Baton Rouge's bike share estimated their costs at $4,000 per station (page 38):
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56bba43086db4378db7e026d/t/5813b5b1d482e97e5eb54ca0/1477686710889/2016_10_19_5518_BatonRougeBikeshare+%28COMPLETE+REPORT%29.pdf
That's not staggering, but how much would the dock be without the screen to rent from (make people use a mobile site/app)? At that point, it would literally just be a no frills dock.
Typical auto-centric thinking taking place at JTA. You think they of all people would have a different mindset. We subsidize cars 8 ways from Sunday but a simple bikeshare systems whose total cost is equal to a rounding error on a street project has to pay for itself right out of the gate.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 05, 2018, 10:02:25 AM
Interesting read. Data from cities that have both: https://medium.com/transit-app/docked-vs-dockless-bikes-five-months-in-a86ac801f4c7
Really great share, tons of interesting data in here.
Maybe docked is the way to go for a starter system, with dockless added down the road to supplement it.
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2018, 12:20:32 PM
But a simple bikeshare systems whose total cost is equal to a rounding error on a street project has to pay for itself right out of the gate.
The four companies who responded to the RFP seem to think that it will.
I haven't seen their responses so I can't tell you if they expect to be self-sufficient or not. However, I do know that every road contractor in Duval County isn't self-sufficient. They all require taxpayer dollars to cover 100% of their costs.
You believe it's best that tax payers fund bike share in Jacksonville?
Sure - why not? In fact, if it was up to me all public transit would be free to Jax residents. Only visitors would have to pay.
The public should fund public transportation and the private sector should fund private transportation. We do it backwards with massive public subsidies to private transportation and assess user fees to public transportation.
QuoteThe public should fund public transportation and the private sector should fund private transportation.
In this case, the bike share program would be a private business funded and operated by the private sector.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 11, 2018, 01:42:07 PM
QuoteThe public should fund public transportation and the private sector should fund private transportation.
In this case, the bike share program would be a private business funded and operated by the private sector.
Only because JTA proposed it that way - which is what makes their RFP so rediculous. If JTA was putting out an RFP for a bus system do you think it would have the same requirements they asked of the bike share? Of course the answer is No. Again, this is why the City should have taken the lead on this.
Are Florida's other major bike share systems being subsidized by a municipality or transit agency? I was under the impression that systems in cities like St. Petersburg, Tampa, Orlando and Miami are all privately funded.
The only one I know about is the one in Oklahoma City, and it is run by an entity of the City.
http://spokiesokc.com/about.html
The City of Oklahoma City launched its Spokies bike share program on Friday, May 18, 2012, at which time it was managed by Downtown Oklahoma City, Inc. The Spokies program began with an Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block grant administered by the City of Oklahoma City's Office of Sustainability. This grant was designed to promote energy efficiency, including alternative methods of transportation. Spokies has been part of EMBARK since August 1, 2014.
So the OKC example is an anomaly?
I don't know. The Tampa/St. Pete systems are government owned but are contracted out to an operator. Plant City is trying to implement theirs now and the City thinks they can do it with minimal taxpayer costs but didn't rule it out.
http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/st-pete-considers-companies-for-bike-share-program
Depending on which vendor is selected, it will cost somewhere between $1.2 and $2 million to start a bike share program in St. Petersburg.
Mayor Rick Kriseman proposed using $1 million from its settlement over the BP oil spill, but the city council rejected that idea. Now it is not clear how the city would pay for a bike share program.
I assume they found the money since they now have a system
Here's some info on Miami Beach's. The private bike share operator that had a contract with the city to be an exclusive program made a complaint when Lime entered the market on their own:
QuoteMiami Beach's Citi Bike rental program is extremely simple: You pay a small fee, pick a bike off a rack, and ride it to another rack and leave it there.
LimeBike, a Silicon Valley startup, is trying to streamline that process even further by removing the need for bike racks. You simply leave the bike on the sidewalk when you're done, and the brakes lock automatically.
Quote"On July 5, 2017, the city received a report from CitiBike of a potential rogue bike-sharing operation taking place on Michigan Avenue near Lincoln Road," Morales wrote. "'Limebike' was identified as an unauthorized bike-sharing operation."
It's unclear how the LimeBikes ended up in Miami Beach, but signs point to nearby Key Biscayne, which last month became the first U.S. city to officially roll out a LimeBike program.
But as new bike-sharing companies sprout around the nation, the battle shows that the bike-sharing world, much like the ridesharing and home-sharing "industries" before them, are becoming increasingly crowded, and more than a few turf wars might be imminent.
The Beach's Citi Bike — which launched as Deco Bike in Miami Beach in 2011 before being renamed in 2014 — is a private company that contracts with Miami Beach and the City of Miami, and likely isn't too happy to see an allegedly cheaper bike-sharing program pop up in town.
According to Morales, because Citi Bike is Miami Beach's "duly authorized exclusive bike-sharing provider," any other service that tries to operate a similar program is apparently illegal. Any new bike-share, after all, would cut into the Citi Bike business model and sap tax revenue from Miami Beach.
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-beach-cracks-down-on-limebike-rogue-bike-sharing-start-up-competitor-to-citibike-9489640
Quote from: Kerry on November 11, 2018, 09:52:24 PM
I don't know. The Tampa/St. Pete systems are government owned but are contracted out to an operator. Plant City is trying to implement theirs now and the City thinks they can do it with minimal taxpayer costs but didn't rule it out.
It appears the OKC network is also operated by a private contractor. http://www.bicycletransit.com
If a private operator can successfully launch, operate and maintain a system without public subsidies, that sounds like a good thing. I'm under the impression cities subsidize when it is believed the market isn't strong enough to support a self-sustaining operation. Am I wrong in my thinking?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 11, 2018, 10:35:30 PM
Quote from: Kerry on November 11, 2018, 09:52:24 PM
I don't know. The Tampa/St. Pete systems are government owned but are contracted out to an operator. Plant City is trying to implement theirs now and the City thinks they can do it with minimal taxpayer costs but didn't rule it out.
It appears the OKC network is also operated by a private contractor. http://www.bicycletransit.com
I can tell you what I do know, OKC paid for the start-up costs for their bike share system and the system is run under EMBARK, which is the public transportation component of the City of Oklahoma City. When I called the number on my membership card to report a problem an EMBARK employee answered the phone and the 2 times I went in person to speak to someone it was in the EMBARK office and I spoke to a City employee. As to how the system operates beyond that I couldn't tell you other than being part of the B-Cycle system, my membership was good in about 40 other cities.
Since it isn't clear in the article below, COTPA (Central Oklahoma Transit and Parking Authority) changed their name to EMBARK once the OKC Streetcar was rolled into their responsibilities.
https://www.bicycletransit.com/our-current-programs/oklahoma-city/
QuoteThe City of Oklahoma City launched its Spokies OKC bike share program on Friday, May 18, 2012, which initially began with an Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block grant administered by the City of Oklahoma City's Office of Sustainability. Spokies provides visitors, employees and residents with a healthy, affordable, and eco-friendly transit option for getting around the downtown Oklahoma City area. Initially maintained by Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., Spokies became a member of the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority (COTPA) family of transit services in August 2014. In January 2015, COTPA contracted with Bicycle Transit Systems (Bike Transit) for the ongoing operations and maintenance management of the system. Bike Transit and COTPA immediately began the process of 'rebooting' the system, replacing outdated/worn components, removing rust, powder coating the bikes and updating the branding.
Soon after Bike Transit came onboard, EMBARK and Bike Transit partnered with Rocktown Youth Mentoring, an OKC-based 501(c)(3) that has been serving youth in the OKC community since 2001 through mentoring and adventure. In early 2015, Rocktown Youth Mentoring started a program "CYCLE REVOLUTION" at Emerson Alternative School in Oklahoma City, using the mentoring lessons they have learned through their rock climbing program to create a cycling program where they teach bicycle maintenance, safe road travel, and a combination of active transportation and recreation to students. Spokies provides bicycles for students to train on, and both Spokies General Manager Joshua Vaught and Head Mechanic John Quigley have served as mentors for Rocktown Youth Mentoring. Furthermore, Bicycle Transit Systems recently hired one of the program's graduates for part-time mechanic work.
In August of 2016, Spokies relaunched with BCycle equipment, stations and bikes.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 11, 2018, 10:54:48 PM
If a private operator can successfully launch, operate and maintain a system without public subsidies, that sounds like a good thing. I'm under the impression cities subsidize when it is believed the market isn't strong enough to support a self-sustaining operation. Am I wrong in my thinking?
If a program can be self-sustaining then great, but for some reason there are several hundred bike shares across the US - from New York City to Kalamazoo, and Jax doesn't have one. How do you explain it other than maybe the City of Jax needs to pony up some cash.
It would be nice to find a comprehensive list of US Cities/Towns with bike share systems but every time I find a list that claims to be comprehensive I find systems missing from the list that I know exists.
Quote from: Kerry on November 13, 2018, 01:08:19 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 11, 2018, 10:54:48 PM
If a private operator can successfully launch, operate and maintain a system without public subsidies, that sounds like a good thing. I'm under the impression cities subsidize when it is believed the market isn't strong enough to support a self-sustaining operation. Am I wrong in my thinking?
If a program can be self-sustaining then great, but for some reason there are several hundred bike shares across the US - from New York City to Kalamazoo, and Jax doesn't have one. How do you explain it other than maybe the City of Jax needs to pony up some cash.
I did speak with the operator of St. Pete and Tampa's bike share systems last year. At the time they were interested but felt the market was hard to break into. Money didn't seem to be issue. Moreso, it didn't seem like they had a willing public partner. Anyway, we should find out pretty soon what each of the four operators have proposed or if they think operating a self sustaining system here is possible.
Speaking of Bikes, the Bike lanes on Hendricks from San Marco square on south is nearing completion Final layer of asphalt being laid down and striping is being painted. Also, new traffic signals will be installed throughout which will be probably be the last item on the list to be completed. Project took a little bit longer than anticipated (shocker) but it will be nice to have a strong bike artery heading into San Marco/Southbank and beyond.
Some neighbors complained that they took street parking away on Hendricks but they lost the good fight in favor of bike lanes. Logically, a lot of side roads into neighborhoods can accommodate those parking issues.
Quote from: Kerry on November 13, 2018, 01:08:19 PM
If a program can be self-sustaining then great, but for some reason there are several hundred bike shares across the US - from New York City to Kalamazoo, and Jax doesn't have one. How do you explain it other than maybe the City of Jax needs to pony up some cash.
Just a guess, but many (if not most) successful bikeshare systems tend to be first-mile/last-mile solutions for other mass transit systems. Maybe the market demand has never been as high in Jacksonville because we've never really had great transit for a bikeshare to feed into. With the JRTC under construction, the East Corridor of the First Coast Flyer going into service next month, and the Southwest corridor through Brooklyn, Five Points, King Street, and down through the westside into Orange Park likely coming on line by end of 2019, maybe these four companies feel like the market finally has the infrastructure in place to support a bikeshare.
If the JTA is going to open up their wallets, that money should be used for a marketing push once bikeshare goes live and the First Coast Flyer is complete. Yes, it's a bus system in mixed traffic, but it's still so much better than anything JTA has ever offered in the past. First Coast Flyer, combined with an urban bike share, a bike share at the beach station, and a station and bike share a little closer to UNF/Town Center really would provide a viable alternative to driving for a lot of people.
Quote from: Kerry on November 13, 2018, 12:59:44 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 11, 2018, 10:35:30 PM
Quote from: Kerry on November 11, 2018, 09:52:24 PM
I don't know. The Tampa/St. Pete systems are government owned but are contracted out to an operator. Plant City is trying to implement theirs now and the City thinks they can do it with minimal taxpayer costs but didn't rule it out.
It appears the OKC network is also operated by a private contractor. http://www.bicycletransit.com
I can tell you what I do know, OKC paid for the start-up costs for their bike share system and the system is run under EMBARK, which is the public transportation component of the City of Oklahoma City. When I called the number on my membership card to report a problem an EMBARK employee answered the phone and the 2 times I went in person to speak to someone it was in the EMBARK office and I spoke to a City employee. As to how the system operates beyond that I couldn't tell you other than being part of the B-Cycle system, my membership was good in about 40 other cities.
I got my info from your link. In fact, it was directly above the quote that you copied and pasted to this forum.
I believe you are correct about OKC funding start-up costs prior to the private company taking over O&M.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on November 13, 2018, 03:08:17 PM
Some neighbors complained that they took street parking away on Hendricks but they lost the good fight in favor of bike lanes. Logically, a lot of side roads into neighborhoods can accommodate those parking issues.
Off topic, but I was kinda disappointed about this. A couple things:
- On Street Parking can reduce speeds. Obviously not when there are zero parked cars like parts of San Jose, but it makes a difference in places where parking is used.
- For those that live on Hendricks, they bought their house with on street parking available. Now it's gone. For those that live mid-block, a guest at their house now has to park on a side street and walk half a block to their house? I'm not going to make it like a half a block is a crazy distance, but certainly less desirable than in front of their house (when they bought their house)
They did add back parking in a few places in the commercial areas - that would have been a mess for places like Metro Diner which has relied on on-street parking forever.
Am I the only one that thinks that taking parking away for bikes is sort of like something really nice to have for something that in places is a need? Hendricks Ave north of the San Marco split went through a tough stretch when they got rid of on-street parking.
Maybe I'm just not a fan of bike lanes. Bikes in an urban area sure and when you can fit the bike lane in, fine. Bur forcing it in on an existing street at the expense of something else? Not ideal to me.
Quote from: KenFSU on November 13, 2018, 03:09:01 PM
Quote from: Kerry on November 13, 2018, 01:08:19 PM
If a program can be self-sustaining then great, but for some reason there are several hundred bike shares across the US - from New York City to Kalamazoo, and Jax doesn't have one. How do you explain it other than maybe the City of Jax needs to pony up some cash.
Just a guess, but many (if not most) successful bikeshare systems tend to be first-mile/last-mile solutions for other mass transit systems. Maybe the market demand has never been as high in Jacksonville because we've never really had great transit for a bikeshare to feed into.
I don't think that is the case at all. There are far too many towns/city/college campuses with bikeshare systems that don't even have regional bus systems, let alone BRT or rail. As for UNF/Town Center, I used to live near there and rode my bike to the Town Center regularly and it is as dangerous as it can possibly be. You throw bikeshare in that environment and there will be daily fatalities.
The City of Jax needs to get off its ass and take over this initiative. A bikeshare system should cover downtown, Southbank, San Marco, La Villa, Springfield, Brooklyn, 5 Points, King St, Avondale, and maybe even Murray Hill. A system focused on Skyway stations isn't going to cut it.
^I believe coverage will be up to the operator to decide. I don't believe anyone would have responded if Skyway stations were the only location they could place bikes. As I've said before, let's let things play out. At this point, we don't even know what each operator is proposing.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 13, 2018, 08:14:19 PM
^I believe coverage will be up to the operator to decide. I don't believe anyone would have responded if Skyway stations were the only location they could place bikes. As I've said before, let's let things play out. At this point, we don't even know what each operator is proposing.
Directly from the RFP
QuoteThe business model should demonstrate how the proposer can meet the immediate provision of facilities at the Skyway stations and how future suburban mobility hub facilities could be provided. The business model should provide for a system in which the operating costs do not exceed its funding source. It is the intention of the JTA to not provide any funding other than the property upon which to locate bike sharing facilities.
That doesn't leave a lot of room for misinterpretation.
Quote from: Kerry on November 13, 2018, 09:07:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 13, 2018, 08:14:19 PM
^I believe coverage will be up to the operator to decide. I don't believe anyone would have responded if Skyway stations were the only location they could place bikes. As I've said before, let's let things play out. At this point, we don't even know what each operator is proposing.
Directly from the RFP
QuoteThe business model should demonstrate how the proposer can meet the immediate provision of facilities at the Skyway stations and how future suburban mobility hub facilities could be provided. The business model should provide for a system in which the operating costs do not exceed its funding source. It is the intention of the JTA to not provide any funding other than the property upon which to locate bike sharing facilities.
That doesn't leave a lot of room for misinterpretation.
We must be reading something different. It basically says there needs to be bikes at the Skyway stations. It says nothing about anywhere else.
Quote from: Steve on November 13, 2018, 03:42:25 PM
Quote from: Jagsdrew on November 13, 2018, 03:08:17 PM
Some neighbors complained that they took street parking away on Hendricks but they lost the good fight in favor of bike lanes. Logically, a lot of side roads into neighborhoods can accommodate those parking issues.
Off topic, but I was kinda disappointed about this. A couple things:
- On Street Parking can reduce speeds. Obviously not when there are zero parked cars like parts of San Jose, but it makes a difference in places where parking is used.
- For those that live on Hendricks, they bought their house with on street parking available. Now it's gone. For those that live mid-block, a guest at their house now has to park on a side street and walk half a block to their house? I'm not going to make it like a half a block is a crazy distance, but certainly less desirable than in front of their house (when they bought their house)
They did add back parking in a few places in the commercial areas - that would have been a mess for places like Metro Diner which has relied on on-street parking forever.
Am I the only one that thinks that taking parking away for bikes is sort of like something really nice to have for something that in places is a need? Hendricks Ave north of the San Marco split went through a tough stretch when they got rid of on-street parking.
Maybe I'm just not a fan of bike lanes. Bikes in an urban area sure and when you can fit the bike lane in, fine. Bur forcing it in on an existing street at the expense of something else? Not ideal to me.
There are two big bike groups that bike up and down San Jose/Hendricks at least once if not twice a week. You'll see a lot of utilization of those bike lanes. Im no road biker by any means but I think this will be very much appreciated by biking community once completed.
I wish the city enhanced this in Riverside and other urban neighborhoods
Quote from: Kerry on November 13, 2018, 09:07:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 13, 2018, 08:14:19 PM
^I believe coverage will be up to the operator to decide. I don't believe anyone would have responded if Skyway stations were the only location they could place bikes. As I've said before, let's let things play out. At this point, we don't even know what each operator is proposing.
Directly from the RFP
QuoteThe business model should demonstrate how the proposer can meet the immediate provision of facilities at the Skyway stations and how future suburban mobility hub facilities could be provided. The business model should provide for a system in which the operating costs do not exceed its funding source. It is the intention of the JTA to not provide any funding other than the property upon which to locate bike sharing facilities.
That doesn't leave a lot of room for misinterpretation.
Yeah, it's not saying the stations can only be at Skyway stations. We'll see what the proposals come up with shortly; in the meantime it's just speculation.
You are right, it doesn't explicitly say "Thou shalt not place any hubs outside the skyway stations", but the RFP clearly says that the immediate provision is for skyway-only hubs and any other are for possible future phases.
QuoteThe business model should demonstrate how the proposer can meet the immediate provision of facilities at the Skyway stations and how future suburban mobility hub facilities could be provided.
So what happens if one of the companies proposes a systems outside of these requirements? I guess that all depends on if they are going use City land or private property for their non-JTA approved locations and if they secure that usage prior to submitting their proposal.
Where did you pull Skyway "Only" hubs from that paragraph?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 14, 2018, 07:59:14 AM
Where did you pull Skyway "Only" hubs from that paragraph?
It doesn't.
Here's a thought, how about we wait to see what's proposed? Either Kerry is right and can say "I told you so", or he's wrong, and will have to find something different to criticize.
Yeah, that's what I've been saying the entire thread. Let's let things play out before jumping on these guys backs.
Does anyone know the time frame JTA is looking at other than they expect to hear proposals on Nov 20?
Never mind - looked it up at JTA. We should know soon enough what they decide.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on November 13, 2018, 10:37:54 PM
Quote from: Steve on November 13, 2018, 03:42:25 PM
Quote from: Jagsdrew on November 13, 2018, 03:08:17 PM
Some neighbors complained that they took street parking away on Hendricks but they lost the good fight in favor of bike lanes. Logically, a lot of side roads into neighborhoods can accommodate those parking issues.
Off topic, but I was kinda disappointed about this. A couple things:
- On Street Parking can reduce speeds. Obviously not when there are zero parked cars like parts of San Jose, but it makes a difference in places where parking is used.
- For those that live on Hendricks, they bought their house with on street parking available. Now it's gone. For those that live mid-block, a guest at their house now has to park on a side street and walk half a block to their house? I'm not going to make it like a half a block is a crazy distance, but certainly less desirable than in front of their house (when they bought their house)
They did add back parking in a few places in the commercial areas - that would have been a mess for places like Metro Diner which has relied on on-street parking forever.
Am I the only one that thinks that taking parking away for bikes is sort of like something really nice to have for something that in places is a need? Hendricks Ave north of the San Marco split went through a tough stretch when they got rid of on-street parking.
Maybe I'm just not a fan of bike lanes. Bikes in an urban area sure and when you can fit the bike lane in, fine. Bur forcing it in on an existing street at the expense of something else? Not ideal to me.
There are two big bike groups that bike up and down San Jose/Hendricks at least once if not twice a week. You'll see a lot of utilization of those bike lanes. Im no road biker by any means but I think this will be very much appreciated by biking community once completed.
I wish the city enhanced this in Riverside and other urban neighborhoods
That's actually the problem - the large bike groups don't fit in the lanes anyway.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 14, 2018, 08:43:33 AM
Yeah, that's what I've been saying the entire thread. Let's let things play out before jumping on these guys backs.
You should take your own advice sometimes
Lol, I do....all the time. But I'm not a kool aid drinker. I will call things out that go against the norm and that are historically prone to failure, no matter how pretty and slick the renderings may be ;-)
Mapping the impact of dockless vehicles:
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/mapping-the-impact-of-dockless-vehicles/539263/
In Manhattan for a couple of days for work and can't help but notice the Citi Bike explosion (NYC's docked bikeshare). Asked a couple of people near a station what they thought of it, and interestingly, their common complaint wasn't that it was hard to find a bike at a dock, but rather, it was hard to return a bike to the dock. One guy mentioned that it wasn't uncommon to bike 15 minutes out of his way to find a dock that wasn't full. Apparently the thousands of "bike angels" are constantly moving bikes from more remote stations to more popular stations throughout the day for credits, resulting in constantly full docks. And if you don't return to a dock, you can get hit with a $1000 fee.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 18, 2018, 07:01:53 PM
Mapping the impact of dockless vehicles:
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/mapping-the-impact-of-dockless-vehicles/539263/
This is how China does dockless bike sharing. Yikes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXX423ErY1U
Quote from: I-10east on November 18, 2018, 10:56:47 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 18, 2018, 07:01:53 PM
Mapping the impact of dockless vehicles:
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/mapping-the-impact-of-dockless-vehicles/539263/
This is how China does dockless bike sharing. Yikes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXX423ErY1U
They do dockless bike sharing in a lot of places. I think what appears to be happening in China (or in these examples) is when you have a LOT of bikes.
Quote from: KenFSU on November 18, 2018, 07:58:22 PM
In Manhattan for a couple of days for work and can't help but notice the Citi Bike explosion (NYC's docked bikeshare). Asked a couple of people near a station what they thought of it, and interestingly, their common complaint wasn't that it was hard to find a bike at a dock, but rather, it was hard to return a bike to the dock. One guy mentioned that it wasn't uncommon to bike 15 minutes out of his way to find a dock that wasn't full. Apparently the thousands of "bike angels" are constantly moving bikes from more remote stations to more popular stations throughout the day for credits, resulting in constantly full docks. And if you don't return to a dock, you can get hit with a $1000 fee.
Not sure why NYC finds this a difficult problem to solve. In OKC I had this problem 2 times. The first time I just hung out for about a minute until someone checked out a bike and opened up a spot. The second time I sent a text to the operator and they said just lock the bike up near the station using the built-in lock and key. They checked the bike in for me and said they would send someone out to retrieve it. I kept the key (I'm sure they have tons of extras) and returned the key a few days later.
Quote from: Kerry on November 19, 2018, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on November 18, 2018, 07:58:22 PM
In Manhattan for a couple of days for work and can't help but notice the Citi Bike explosion (NYC's docked bikeshare). Asked a couple of people near a station what they thought of it, and interestingly, their common complaint wasn't that it was hard to find a bike at a dock, but rather, it was hard to return a bike to the dock. One guy mentioned that it wasn't uncommon to bike 15 minutes out of his way to find a dock that wasn't full. Apparently the thousands of "bike angels" are constantly moving bikes from more remote stations to more popular stations throughout the day for credits, resulting in constantly full docks. And if you don't return to a dock, you can get hit with a $1000 fee.
Not sure why NYC finds this a difficult problem to solve. In OKC I had this problem 2 times. The first time I just hung out for about a minute until someone checked out a bike and opened up a spot. The second time I sent a text to the operator and they said just lock the bike up near the station using the built-in lock and key. They checked the bike in for me and said they would send someone out to retrieve it. I kept the key (I'm sure they have tons of extras) and returned the key a few days later.
I'm thinking NYC has more residents and visitors than Oklahoma City. But that's just me.
Quote from: Steve on November 19, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: Kerry on November 19, 2018, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on November 18, 2018, 07:58:22 PM
In Manhattan for a couple of days for work and can't help but notice the Citi Bike explosion (NYC's docked bikeshare). Asked a couple of people near a station what they thought of it, and interestingly, their common complaint wasn't that it was hard to find a bike at a dock, but rather, it was hard to return a bike to the dock. One guy mentioned that it wasn't uncommon to bike 15 minutes out of his way to find a dock that wasn't full. Apparently the thousands of "bike angels" are constantly moving bikes from more remote stations to more popular stations throughout the day for credits, resulting in constantly full docks. And if you don't return to a dock, you can get hit with a $1000 fee.
Not sure why NYC finds this a difficult problem to solve. In OKC I had this problem 2 times. The first time I just hung out for about a minute until someone checked out a bike and opened up a spot. The second time I sent a text to the operator and they said just lock the bike up near the station using the built-in lock and key. They checked the bike in for me and said they would send someone out to retrieve it. I kept the key (I'm sure they have tons of extras) and returned the key a few days later.
I'm thinking NYC has more residents and visitors than Oklahoma City. But that's just me.
Not dissimilar to the issue on China - lots of people using the system creates unexpected problems. I can see why it would be an issue in NYC and not in OKC.
Quote from: Adam White on November 19, 2018, 10:52:10 AM
Quote from: Steve on November 19, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: Kerry on November 19, 2018, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on November 18, 2018, 07:58:22 PM
In Manhattan for a couple of days for work and can't help but notice the Citi Bike explosion (NYC's docked bikeshare). Asked a couple of people near a station what they thought of it, and interestingly, their common complaint wasn't that it was hard to find a bike at a dock, but rather, it was hard to return a bike to the dock. One guy mentioned that it wasn't uncommon to bike 15 minutes out of his way to find a dock that wasn't full. Apparently the thousands of "bike angels" are constantly moving bikes from more remote stations to more popular stations throughout the day for credits, resulting in constantly full docks. And if you don't return to a dock, you can get hit with a $1000 fee.
Not sure why NYC finds this a difficult problem to solve. In OKC I had this problem 2 times. The first time I just hung out for about a minute until someone checked out a bike and opened up a spot. The second time I sent a text to the operator and they said just lock the bike up near the station using the built-in lock and key. They checked the bike in for me and said they would send someone out to retrieve it. I kept the key (I'm sure they have tons of extras) and returned the key a few days later.
I'm thinking NYC has more residents and visitors than Oklahoma City. But that's just me.
Not dissimilar to the issue on China - lots of people using the system creates unexpected problems. I can see why it would be an issue in NYC and not in OKC.
Exactly - while I did have a little sarcasm in my answer, it was honest. That's like saying "This small company with limited resources offers great customer service; why can't this big company?" Many things are very hard to scale.
Quote from: Steve on November 19, 2018, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: Adam White on November 19, 2018, 10:52:10 AM
Quote from: Steve on November 19, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: Kerry on November 19, 2018, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on November 18, 2018, 07:58:22 PM
In Manhattan for a couple of days for work and can't help but notice the Citi Bike explosion (NYC's docked bikeshare). Asked a couple of people near a station what they thought of it, and interestingly, their common complaint wasn't that it was hard to find a bike at a dock, but rather, it was hard to return a bike to the dock. One guy mentioned that it wasn't uncommon to bike 15 minutes out of his way to find a dock that wasn't full. Apparently the thousands of "bike angels" are constantly moving bikes from more remote stations to more popular stations throughout the day for credits, resulting in constantly full docks. And if you don't return to a dock, you can get hit with a $1000 fee.
Not sure why NYC finds this a difficult problem to solve. In OKC I had this problem 2 times. The first time I just hung out for about a minute until someone checked out a bike and opened up a spot. The second time I sent a text to the operator and they said just lock the bike up near the station using the built-in lock and key. They checked the bike in for me and said they would send someone out to retrieve it. I kept the key (I'm sure they have tons of extras) and returned the key a few days later.
I'm thinking NYC has more residents and visitors than Oklahoma City. But that's just me.
Not dissimilar to the issue on China - lots of people using the system creates unexpected problems. I can see why it would be an issue in NYC and not in OKC.
Exactly - while I did have a little sarcasm in my answer, it was honest. That's like saying "This small company with limited resources offers great customer service; why can't this big company?" Many things are very hard to scale.
Seems obvious!
I think all of you missed my point.
Quote from: Kerry on November 19, 2018, 01:56:58 PM
I think all of you missed my point.
If your point was that New York City should be capable of being able to accommodate a person bringing their bike back to a full dock, then yes in a box I agree with you. Sometimes are harder than they should be (right or wrong). But, the staffing issue of maintaining this grows exponentially, not linearly.
If you had a different point, then yes I missed it.
No, that was my point. If someone is riding 15 minutes out of their way just to dock a bike they are probably totally unaware there is already a solution in place.
Quote from: Kerry on November 19, 2018, 03:05:36 PM
No, that was my point. If someone is riding 15 minutes out of their way just to dock a bike they are probably totally unaware there is already a solution in place.
But is there a solution in place in NY? There may not be:
- Perhaps the person didn't know they could text someone for that issue
- Perhaps they did text and the didn't get a response
- Perhaps they were new to the bike share world and got a little, "wrapped around the axle mentally" if you will.
- Perhaps some law in NY prevents them from suggesting something like OKCs solution.
Here is what NYC says to do if there is no dock. Basically you select "No dock" from the kiosk and they give you an extra 15 minutes to find a dock.
https://help.citibikenyc.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002754911-I-can-t-find-a-dock
Quote from: Kerry on November 19, 2018, 03:39:19 PM
Here is what NYC says to do if there is no dock. Basically you select "No dock" from the kiosk and they give you an extra 15 minutes to find a dock.
https://help.citibikenyc.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002754911-I-can-t-find-a-dock
Well, that's not really amazing. Generally, it isn't the money for the extra 15 minutes; it's the fact that I have to spend an extra 15 minutes of my time looking for it.
(to be clear, I recognize you didn't set the policy).
Yea - I prefer the "just lock it near-by" approach. Of course, the app tells you not only if a bike is available, but also if a doc is available.
^This is one of the benefits of dockless!
Quote from: Kerry on November 19, 2018, 03:39:19 PM
Here is what NYC says to do if there is no dock. Basically you select "No dock" from the kiosk and they give you an extra 15 minutes to find a dock.
https://help.citibikenyc.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002754911-I-can-t-find-a-dock
Which doesn't do you any good if the next station is full too.
Walking down 1st Ave on the Upper East Side tonight, I passed three full stations before seeing a station with a single open dock:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z596rmt3/20181119-180000.jpg)
Personally, I like the idea of a dockless system that incentivizes riders to leave bikes at or near designated stations.
Dockless would be a mess in Jacksonville. It is so spread out. Eventually half the bikes would end up in the St. Johns river!
Quote from: KenFSU on November 19, 2018, 06:05:35 PM
Personally, I like the idea of a dockless system that incentivizes riders to leave bikes at or near designated stations.
I like that concept too. I'd also like to see a concept that uses "Corrals" instead of Docks. With a Corral, you still have a designated place but if you need to squeeze that extra bike (or 2 or 3 or 4) in there you can.
The solution to NYC's problem seems to be - more docking stations.
Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2018, 01:41:30 PM
The solution to NYC's problem seems to be - more docking stations.
Luckily land is plentiful and cheap in NYC!
Quote from: Adam White on November 20, 2018, 02:04:22 PM
Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2018, 01:41:30 PM
The solution to NYC's problem seems to be - more docking stations.
Luckily land is plentiful and cheap in NYC!
Whatever dude. However, I do retract my comment that they need more stations. They clearly have plenty of those. Maybe they just need riders who know to click the toggle button to show the open docks.
https://member.citibikenyc.com/map/
Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2018, 02:32:35 PM
Quote from: Adam White on November 20, 2018, 02:04:22 PM
Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2018, 01:41:30 PM
The solution to NYC's problem seems to be - more docking stations.
Luckily land is plentiful and cheap in NYC!
Whatever dude.
https://member.citibikenyc.com/map/
Good map and clearly they have a lot of docks. They also have a lot of people.
Certainly a useful map to get an idea of surroundings. Interesting how when you look at the docks with no (or few bikes), it's in the primarily residential areas. The opposite is true of the commercial areas. Makes sense in the middle of the afternoon on a weekday.
Probably not as useful once you take a bike and set out on your trip (as you likely can't change your destination based on dock changes during your ride).
There definitely are some dead areas though or areas without much dock capacity. I can see where the complaints can arise. It might not seem like a huge deal to ride 4 blocks and walk back, but if you're using it to get to work on a particular day I'd say that would suck.
The same map is available on the app so you actually can look it up en route. If you are on the fringe of the map then certainly a full rack would be more of a problem than someone who is surrounded by other stations. I have to believe that if someone is fit enough to be biking through NYC then walking a few blocks from a less convenient docking station wouldn't be an undue burden.
However, maybe the auto-centric mentality of, "I have to park at the front door" has filtered down to bicycle transit community.
Quote from: Kerry on November 20, 2018, 03:00:28 PM
The same map is available on the app so you actually can look it up en route. If you are on the fringe of the map then certainly a full rack would be more of a problem than someone who is surrounded by other stations. I have to believe that if someone is fit enough to be biking through NYC then walking a few blocks from a less convenient docking station wouldn't be an undue burden.
However, maybe the auto-centric mentality of, "I have to park at the front door" has filtered down to bicycle transit community.
You're missing the point. If I look when I'm 10 minutes from a dock and there is 2 open slots, there's no guarantee that they will be there when I get there. I can't reserve a spot.
You're comment about parking right in front of my door is idiotic. That's not what I'm saying at all and no one believes that. But....it should be consistent. If I'm in NYC and I ride the subway, I don't care if it drops me 10 blocks from my office. But, I know I have a 10 block walk and can plan my day. If I drive to my office and park in a garage 5 blocks away then I can plan for it.
It's hard to rely on something when you need to be on time if you have to circle and find a place to lock up the bike.
Uber attempting to acquire Bird and/or Lime:
https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/1/18120933/uber-bird-lime-acquisition-negotiaton-report
NYC is going to triple the size of the CITI bike program thanks to $100 million from LYFT.
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/29/18117960/citi-bike-new-york-lyft-expansion-motivate
Docks for bike sharing are SOOOOOOOOOOOOO 2017. Geeeeez. ;-)
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/7/27/17617782/bike-share-new-york-dockless-facts-information
The deadline for JTA to select a bikeshare provider has come and gone. I haven't seen anything in the media about so maybe JTA rejected all 4 proposals.
At our panel event last week, they said they haven't picked a firm yet.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2019, 04:16:55 PM
At our panel event last week, they said they haven't picked a firm yet.
Thanks.
Well, just got a notice from JTA that the RFP for a Bike Share system in Jax has been cancelled. I guess free was still to expensive for them.
I was informed it was put on hold. Not cancelled. Why? I'm not sure but it appears the private sector is confident bike share can work here.
According to the Business Journal,
QuoteOn Feb. 12, JTA notified the five companies that responded to a request for proposals that it had created a short list of three companies and intended "to negotiate with the number one ranked firm," which is VeoRide.
The selection will be presented to JTA's board at its Feb. 21 meeting. The authority is looking for a five-year contract, which the board would also have to approve.
Link, might be behind pay wall https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/02/14/jta-has-picked-a-partner-for-a-downtown-bike-share.html?ana=e_ph_prem&u=qn2xgMusSvJCgTcRVcM9Dg07e466fb&t=1550238062&j=86690911
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 15, 2019, 08:52:52 AM
According to the Business Journal,
QuoteOn Feb. 12, JTA notified the five companies that responded to a request for proposals that it had created a short list of three companies and intended "to negotiate with the number one ranked firm," which is VeoRide.
The selection will be presented to JTA's board at its Feb. 21 meeting. The authority is looking for a five-year contract, which the board would also have to approve.
Link, might be behind pay wall https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/02/14/jta-has-picked-a-partner-for-a-downtown-bike-share.html?ana=e_ph_prem&u=qn2xgMusSvJCgTcRVcM9Dg07e466fb&t=1550238062&j=86690911 (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/02/14/jta-has-picked-a-partner-for-a-downtown-bike-share.html?ana=e_ph_prem&u=qn2xgMusSvJCgTcRVcM9Dg07e466fb&t=1550238062&j=86690911)
I mean hey, looks like something, at least.
Well see, but my expectations are pretty low.
From today's Business Journal
Quote
Despite approving the program and identifying a bike share partner, VeoRide Inc., in February, Downtown is no closer to seeing a program.
The service was expected to launch in March, if all negotiations went well. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority received requests for proposals from five companies, including Lime, Inc. and created a short list of three before finally landing on VeoRide.
"As far as I know, the city is still reviewing it," said David Cawton, JTA's Media and Public Relations Manger.
City Director of Public Affairs Nikki Kimbleton also said that she was unaware of any updates.
...
[David] Cawton [JTA's Media and Public Relations Manger] said that there was no hard timeline attached to the program. However, JTA is opening a new administration and transportation center in March - which may provide an opportunity for the authority to launch the service to coincide with the opening of its new building.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/12/05/jacksonvilles-bike-share-program-is-still-coming.html?ana=e_me_set1&j=90307931&t=Morning&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTURReU5EQTBOalJsTWprMyIsInQiOiJvMDUybnlveGx0R3d6M2ZyQlA5NjZCMjRwMFJtUVIwXC8zVlwvQWt5UmNKNXVESEVnaEJPakc4UGp6UmNTVDhsVGRGcEQrV3FJMnkzVUc0UWsyRVdscWlEb0lYUDkwbFwvc2wrSGZVMFNhMUFPU3FKMm5SZkpUbUxpQllQN0R1bUhYSiJ9
It really is confusing to why something so simple has taken so long. I get the impression, it isn't a market feasibility or infrastructure issue.
The last I heard back in February JTA said they canceled the RFP. The RFP on the JTA says "Under Evaluation" and was last updated on 2/12/2019 2:40:44 PM.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch - every town with more than 50 people on the planet has some form of bike/scooter share system, and many of them have more than one.
^Yeah, now you can see why DT Jax is the way it is. Much of its ailments have very little to do with the actual market.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 05, 2019, 09:23:39 AM
^Yeah, now you can see why DT Jax is the way it is. Much of its ailments have very little to do with the actual market.
True. Must be because of consolidation or some other completely unrelated factor.
Now that bike share systems around the world are dying (because of scooters) COJ will say they were smart not to do anything
From the article:
QuoteThe bid is explicit that "the bike share system will only consist of pedal-powered and motor-powered bikes," though VeoRide's site showcases both bikes and scooters.
"A lot of folks are excited about having a new choice for downtown mobility," said Ford, in February. "But we have had many people pose very straightforward questions about its safety."
1. Someone made a decision that we don't want scooters.....so much for embracing emerging disruptive technology and innovation.
2. Despite bikes predating the automobile, we're concerned about safety. Perhaps we need a bike share test track. ;)
I don't know the details of VeoRide's proposal, so let's assume it was the best. However, I am familiar with one of the more well-known micromobility company's proposal, a proposal that was not selected by JTA. That proposal focused on dockless electric scooter and electric-assisted pedal bikes. They would have had a set number of units deployed within 90 days of a signed agreement (and would have adjusted the amount of vehicles in circulation as demand grew/receded, etc), did not need any financial assistance from JTA/COJ, were willing to work with public agencies on various strategies to avoid the negative effects of dockless vehicle clutter, and would have paid a portion of revenues to JTA.
My understanding is that COJ did not want dockless bikes/scooters along sidewalks, and that was the deal killer. JTA's request specifically wanted docked stations at Skyway stops (presumably so they didn't need COJ's signoff). Not sure if the conversation with COJ ever explored alternatives, like designated dockless parking spots (see below).
(https://cossdotblog-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/collage-1.jpg)
I think this is another instance of agencies working in silos. An RFP was put out by one agency. That RFP elicited responses from many well-qualified companies. After the conclusion of the bidding process, said agency then tried to get approval from other public agencies who didn't want the system in the first place, and found a reason to say no.
I fully understand the frustrating malaise than can occur when (proverbially) navigating the waters where several slow-moving ships that are not eager to veer off their traditional routes, try passing themselves in a narrow channel... but it seems like the entire process could have been handled better at the start, and potential concerns could have been addressed before an RFP was ever issued.
That's my view from 2,000 feet as someone that was a little more connected to this process than a standard armchair quarterback.
The scooters are cool but I can understand the push back against them. I've been to a few places where they are seemingly unregulated and there are piles of scooters just strewn about randomly on the streets. The designated dockless spots look like a good solution for that as long as they are adhered to.
Quote from: acme54321 on December 05, 2019, 11:50:49 AM
The scooters are cool but I can understand the push back against them. I've been to a few places where they are seemingly unregulated and there are piles of scooters just strewn about randomly on the streets. The designated dockless spots look like a good solution for that as long as they are adhered to.
I've been to two types of cities. Cities that haven't proactively addressed/enforced unmitigated clutter issues... and those that have done a much better job of doing so. I can understand the concerns of people who live (or visit) in the former, and also appreciate how these options can be effective for people that live (or visit) in the latter.
That further amplifies my view that the entire process locally could have been handled better at the start, and that potential concerns were addressed and solutions agreed upon
before an RFP was ever issued.
It's kind of funny* that we've been swept up in debates about how private companies can more efficiently manage public parking, utility services and schooling... but when private operators can deliver market-based transportation solutions, then suddenly there is some wall of public protectionism erected.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Charlotte-November-2019/i-ncPqZzS/0/747733e7/L/20191109_121604-L.jpg)
During a recent trip to Uptown Charlotte, they seemed to be managed well. In fact, they seemed to attract people to Uptown by being a "thing to do" in the central business district that wasn't offered in other areas of the city. The place felt alive even on a Sunday, which is much more than what we can say locally. While things like bike share are minor when isolated, the situation is a microcosm of a larger dark cloud hanging over downtown.
We have too many dinosaurs with hands in the cookie jar of the decision making process. It's not the 1980s anymore. At some point, we'll need to decide if we just want to be a place that looks nice for those driving on I-95 to South Florida and Orlando or if we really want life and vibrancy in the CBD. Life and vibrancy will mean allowing things, processes, places and people that we've avoided traditionally.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 05, 2019, 10:16:39 AM
Now that bike share systems around the world are dying (because of scooters) COJ will say they were smart not to do anything
No worries, scooters will burn out just the same. These things are largely a fad enabled by silly amounts of capital desperately chasing even the craziest of investments. As the baby boomers are nearly 1/2 retired, that capital's going to be drying up. A lot of these companies won't be around after that.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 06, 2019, 04:00:05 PM
As the baby boomers are nearly 1/2 retired, that capital's going to be drying up.
You do realize that the allocation of capital extends beyond US baby boomers, yes? Money doesn't only come to the US by way of wooden ships carrying Spanish bullion and British silver any longer.
I'm 50 and I use bikeshares everywhere I go. When we were in DC a few months ago there were lines at bikeshare stations waiting for bikes and people of every age were riding.
Quote from: fieldafm on December 06, 2019, 04:16:43 PM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 06, 2019, 04:00:05 PM
As the baby boomers are nearly 1/2 retired, that capital's going to be drying up.
You do realize that the allocation of capital extends beyond US baby boomers, yes? Money doesn't only come to the US by way of wooden ships carrying Spanish bullion and British silver any longer.
What happens when the biggest, wealthiest generation ever retires? They take their money out of investments and put it into cash. This biggest generation ever exists everywhere, western Europe, China, Brazil, et al. Other than the US, not a damn one of them has a replacement generation. They're all falling off a demographic cliff.
There will be still be capital looking for investments. But it's a return to normal. It won't be easy to find investors willing to throw $1.6 billion at a company that has all of $16m / year in revenue.
^ The echo boom (millenials) is almost as big - and they are the driving force behind the disruptive economy that brings us things like bike share and scooters.
In the generational wars - bicycle infrastructure is cheaper than automobile infrastructure. Guess which one will when the money dries up.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/council-approves-one-year-pilot-program-for-e-scooters-and-e-bicycles-downtown
Happy to see it moving forward, while simultaneously worried that it's destined to fail.
$10,000 performance bonds per vehicle seems like a steep request when a lot of these companies are struggling to begin with in smaller markets (and pulling out with more frequency).
I also think it's a huge mistake limiting the boundaries to just the northbank core below Beaver Street, from the JRTC to the stadium. Effectively cuts off the entire Southbank, Brooklyn, and Main Street/Springfield Business District.
As an electric scooter owner who works in the northbank core, everything I need to do is fairly easily walkable, with the exception of popping into Brooklyn, or hopping into Springfield or San Marco for lunch. That's where a scooter comes in so handy without having to pull your car out of the garage.
I see one reason to keep them in the Core. There's really no easy way to get out of the core. Aside from the Riverwalk all of the ways out of DT are very narrow sidewalks. Seems like there could be a lot of conflict with peds trying to cross the bridges. Ever tried to ride a bike across one of the bridges on the sidewalk?
Quote from: acme54321 on February 12, 2020, 10:16:39 AM
I see one reason to keep them in the Core. There's really no easy way to get out of the core. Aside from the Riverwalk all of the ways out of DT are very narrow sidewalks. Seems like there could be a lot of conflict with peds trying to cross the bridges. Ever tried to ride a bike across one of the bridges on the sidewalk?
Related, FDOT recently painted bike lanes on the Acosta
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2020, 10:33:08 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on February 12, 2020, 10:16:39 AM
I see one reason to keep them in the Core. There's really no easy way to get out of the core. Aside from the Riverwalk all of the ways out of DT are very narrow sidewalks. Seems like there could be a lot of conflict with peds trying to cross the bridges. Ever tried to ride a bike across one of the bridges on the sidewalk?
Related, FDOT recently painted bike lanes on the Acosta
Actual lanes or just marking the shoulders. I do bridge laps occasionally but it's not fun with cars flaying around. Don't do it so much anymore. The new pedestrian bridge on the Filler Warren is auch bigger deal than most understand.
Quote from: acme54321 on February 12, 2020, 10:16:39 AM
Ever tried to ride a bike across one of the bridges on the sidewalk?
You're not supposed to do that. Bicycle lanes or share the lane with cars, as sketchy as it is.
Biking on the Acosta is relatively safe, and the Main St bridge is at least low-speed traffic, and the Fuller Warren is about to get a shared use path. Not only that but you can take a bicycle on the Skyway and get across the Acosta that way. I've ridden my bike across many times, it's no more difficult than riding on the road regularly (except for the grades, but that's just a good workout)
The only REALLY bad bridges are the obvious ones: the Mathews and the Hart. I wouldn't ever DREAM of taking a bicycle up there, nor walk.
Park Street is also an easy bike ride between Riverside, Brooklyn and LaVilla. There are options....signage would help though.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 12, 2020, 11:07:28 AM
Park Street is also an easy bike ride between Riverside, Brooklyn and LaVilla. There are options....signage would help though.
I believe Park is getting a road diet in Brooklyn at some point in the future to help with that
Quote from: fieldafm on December 06, 2019, 04:16:43 PM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on December 06, 2019, 04:00:05 PM
As the baby boomers are nearly 1/2 retired, that capital's going to be drying up.
You do realize that the allocation of capital extends beyond US baby boomers, yes? Money doesn't only come to the US by way of wooden ships carrying Spanish bullion and British silver any longer.
We're talking about the biggest generation the US has every had. And we're talking about the richest generartion the US has ever had. And S. Korea, Japan, Germany, France, at al. all have baby boomer generations. They're all desperately trying to get every last penny out of those investments as they all start to retire. That is beyond a gigashitton of capital wildly sloshling around the markets.
And everywhere else except the US, there is no replacement generation. When the boomers retire, their capital markets dry up.
And no, literally _ALL_ capital is gone. BUt it's going to be the difference between $50 prime rib being offered at at $5 all you can erat buffet and the grissly, greeasy stuff they offer at Golden Corral for $12.
It'll still be there but vastly, vastly different. If you want to start an eSkateboard share company, you're going to need a business plan that's got good cash flow and relatively immediate payback. AKA, back to normal. You're not going to see these investors throwing a billion dollars at a company that gets paid $1.87 at a time. You can't even cover operating costs with that model, let alone a decent ROI for investors. Remmber, they know they're going to lose money on some investments so they want to make sure they have some home runs in others to offset those.
If eScooter sharing survives, it's likely going to be small scale and requiring some local direct subsidies, the way bike shares were a few years ago. But that's just my two bits worth. They may have already figured out how to massively lower their high costs. If they'd done that - the news of it isn't out yet - but if they have that could make the model viable.
Quote from: fieldafm on December 05, 2019, 11:17:34 AM
I don't know the details of VeoRide's proposal, so let's assume it was the best. However, I am familiar with one of the more well-known micromobility company's proposal, a proposal that was not selected by JTA. That proposal focused on dockless electric scooter and electric-assisted pedal bikes. They would have had a set number of units deployed within 90 days of a signed agreement (and would have adjusted the amount of vehicles in circulation as demand grew/receded, etc), did not need any financial assistance from JTA/COJ, were willing to work with public agencies on various strategies to avoid the negative effects of dockless vehicle clutter, and would have paid a portion of revenues to JTA.
My understanding is that COJ did not want dockless bikes/scooters along sidewalks, and that was the deal killer. JTA's request specifically wanted docked stations at Skyway stops (presumably so they didn't need COJ's signoff). Not sure if the conversation with COJ ever explored alternatives, like designated dockless parking spots (see below).
(https://cossdotblog-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/collage-1.jpg)
I think this is another instance of agencies working in silos. An RFP was put out by one agency. That RFP elicited responses from many well-qualified companies. After the conclusion of the bidding process, said agency then tried to get approval from other public agencies who didn't want the system in the first place, and found a reason to say no.
I fully understand the frustrating malaise than can occur when (proverbially) navigating the waters where several slow-moving ships that are not eager to veer off their traditional routes, try passing themselves in a narrow channel... but it seems like the entire process could have been handled better at the start, and potential concerns could have been addressed before an RFP was ever issued.
That's my view from 2,000 feet as someone that was a little more connected to this process than a standard armchair quarterback.
As expected, with the passage of Councilwoman Cumber's ordinance, dockless mobility options are now on the streets of DT Jax.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/03/04/creating-buzz-electric-scooters-rev-up-in-downtown-jacksonville/ (https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/03/04/creating-buzz-electric-scooters-rev-up-in-downtown-jacksonville/)
About damn time!
Interesting, so it's like docked but without the actual docks? I'm assuming the apps must be able to prevent you from ending your ride unless the scooter is parked within the parking zone? And that the scooters will refuse to leave the project area?
I had a chance to use the Skip/Helbiz scooters when I was last in DC before the pandemic, but there weren't parking zones and I don't think I ever left the area for there to be issues. It seems like it would be easy to be at JRTC and want to head north but hit the wall.
Logistics aside, I think it's a nice little improvement to have, especially if they're able to effectively control them like this. It's no "game changer" but it's definitely a QOL bump for mobility. Now if we can just start chipping at the larger structural challenges...
Forget BRT, Skyway, cars, bikes or walking. Let's use scooters!
City trying out 400 of them from 4 different services for a year but they do cost to rent. I just want to know how safe is it on one of these on a city street in traffic? Especially when Jax drivers are not used to looking for them and we already have a terrible track record hitting pedestrians and bicyclists? Maybe it would be a good idea to have a dedicated transit way for these.
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/downtown-jacksonville-gets-400-electric-scooters/4T32WNCHF5CTFEWWY7GQJMWZZY/ (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/downtown-jacksonville-gets-400-electric-scooters/4T32WNCHF5CTFEWWY7GQJMWZZY/)
Never see me on one... isn't Jax one of the least safe place for cyclists and pedestrians? Death and dismemberment downtown...
As of now, they are only downtown in the Northbank. For those who have visited the Northbank recently, one would know that you can pitch a tent on most of the streets in the middle of rush hour and not worry about getting hit by a car. It's likely the safest place in town to try them out.
I rode one yesterday. It was fun and didn't feel too much different than riding a bicycle on the street except you look like more of an idiot
Are these in Gainesville too?
I think these have been good additions in Miami and Orlando when I experienced them. It'll take a bit for people to become used to the parking requirements and other rules, but it tends to work out. I hope they expand it into Brooklyn, Riverside, and San Marco soon, then I would probably use it.
They're really useful as a first/last-mile service for people without their own bikes or scooters.
One was left across the street from my home today - blocks from the nearest of the 35 dockless hubs. This is pretty normal for these systems. Curious to see how long it takes for the company (or another user) to move it.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 05, 2021, 05:50:07 PM
Forget BRT, Skyway, cars, bikes or walking. Let's use scooters!
City trying out 400 of them from 4 different services for a year but they do cost to rent. I just want to know how safe is it on one of these on a city street in traffic? Especially when Jax drivers are not used to looking for them and we already have a terrible track record hitting pedestrians and bicyclists? Maybe it would be a good idea to have a dedicated transit way for these.
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/downtown-jacksonville-gets-400-electric-scooters/4T32WNCHF5CTFEWWY7GQJMWZZY/ (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/downtown-jacksonville-gets-400-electric-scooters/4T32WNCHF5CTFEWWY7GQJMWZZY/)
Jacksonville, like other cities, really needs to build some bikeways.
As much as I hate to say it, they would be a better place for the GD scooters.
Shared use paths and bikeways are coming! Stay tuned!
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2021, 06:48:57 AM
As of now, they are only downtown in the Northbank. For those who have visited the Northbank recently, one would know that you can pitch a tent on most of the streets in the middle of rush hour and not worry about getting hit by a car. It's likely the safest place in town to try them out.
In the last two weeks, I've only seen one near miss.
Lady going full speed in the wrong direction down Duval Street.
Blew straight through the red light and into the middle of Main, which can be like a runway if the lights are all green.
Legit covered my eyes, but she got lucky.
Otherwise, haven't seen anything too dicey.
What I have seen, however, are a surprising number of people coming downtown just to ride the scooters. Was in the office last weekend and counted probably 30 or 40 people (families and millenials) on the streets riding. Might not sound like much, but compared to what a weekend on the Northbank usually looks like, it was a very positive change.
^ Interestingly, whenever I have been on a Caribbean cruise, the cruise staff almost always advises passengers during their travel talks about ports of call to NOT rent motor bikes/scooters due to how dangerous they are in traffic. I am not convinced Jax drivers are much better than our Caribbean brethren. Will be interesting to see the reaction when the first person gets seriously injured (or worse).
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 12, 2021, 09:09:39 PM
What I have seen, however, are a surprising number of people coming downtown just to ride the scooters. Was in the office last weekend and counted probably 30 or 40 people (families and millenials) on the streets riding. Might not sound like much, but compared to what a weekend on the Northbank usually looks like, it was a very positive change.
I noticed this in Uptown Charlotte a year or two ago. They attracted their own crowd of people on the weekends.
Rode through downtown tonight around 10pm and there were literally kids everywhere on scooters.
^ Since they are driving on streets, is there any requirement to at least have a driver's license? It doesn't seem to be a good idea for "kids" to be weaving in and out of vehicular traffic. Are these viewed as "bikes" instead of vehicles? Where is the line crossed? I assume they have some marker lights on them. Any turn or head lights?
Max. speed on the scooters is 15 mph, which feels pretty quick especially on the sidewalk.
That said, I can go faster on a bike, and no license is needed for that.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 13, 2021, 09:14:27 PM
^ Since they are driving on streets, is there any requirement to at least have a driver's license? It doesn't seem to be a good idea for "kids" to be weaving in and out of vehicular traffic. Are these viewed as "bikes" instead of vehicles? Where is the line crossed? I assume they have some marker lights on them. Any turn or head lights?
States have laws touching on this sort of thing. Not just for electric scooters. Before then they had them for ATVs, mopeds, etc. and would often be based on the size of the engine ( 70 CC, e.g. ) , etc.
We'll see what the staying power is, but in my opinion, the scooters have been a big win for downtown.
Mentioned it before, but seeing a lot of new faces in the CBD having fun using the scooters recreationally.
Really lifts the overall vibe of the area.
This looks like it might be a great solution to urban transit - In less than a year and already outselling Tesla (at the rate of 1,000 vehicles a day) - bigger than a scooter and smaller than a car: https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202103/15/WS604ec703a31024ad0baaf293.html (https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202103/15/WS604ec703a31024ad0baaf293.html) FYI, GM is a partner in making these so seeing them in the US one day is not out of the question.
Based on their selling price, the City could buy almost 83,000 of these for the price of "updating" the Skyway. Make these autonomous and put in a "scooter-type" pool for much of the City and it would run circles around JTA's plans.
Quote
A mini-sized model from Chinese brand Wuling, the Hong Guang Mini EV, toppled Tesla's Model 3 as the world's best-selling electric car in January, with deliveries exceeding 36,000 in the month, more than those of the Model 3 and Model Y combined.
"The number will be even higher in February," said Zhou Xing, a senior executive of Wuling, a brand hailing from Liuzhou, a city in South China's Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region.
Zhou did not expect such sales a year ago. "I thought it would be around 3,000 a month," he recalled last week.
Even more pessimistic were auto reporters. Scores of them were invited to share their views in March 2020, four months before the debut of the model priced from just 28,800 yuan ($4,427.68) and which has a range of 170 kilometers on one charge.
They argued that it would not sell in big cities where people prefer international brands and the chance would be slim in small towns as well, where people tend to choose gasoline vehicles.
These views were soon proved wrong. Within 200 days, 200,000 Hong Guang electric cars were sold, and the demand continues to soar, not only in China. "Businesspeople from over 150 counties and regions are asking us when we will sell cars there," Zhou said.
Statistics show that the majority of buyers are in smaller cities and towns, and 72 percent of the buyers are those born in the 1990s, and 60 percent of them are female.
If Tesla started its journey as a toy of the rich in California, Wuling's two-seaters (four-seaters are also available) can be regarded as the companions of young women in China's small towns.
The selling points are obvious: they are easier to park and maneuver for new drivers; the driving range, though short compared with others, it is more than enough for them to commute; they can be charged at home; they are cute and affordable.
With most owners being female, Wuling is adding a bit of fashion into its models. "We don't sell them like cars, but more like designer clothes," Zhou said.
Last week, the carmaker unveiled Macaron variants, which are available in three colors and released in cooperation with Pantone, the global authority on color and design.
"It is like a collection for different seasons. In the auto industry, it will take three years or so for a new vehicle to come out. So one of the few things we can do quickly is on color, and they like it," Zhou said.
Wuling is not stopping there. Many of its plans include unveiling co-branded vehicles with entertainment company Disney, and joining hands with other big names like sportswear brand Nike.
"So you see? It is about how you consider the electric car segment. Many followed suit by launching coupe-style sedans and SUVs resembling those of Tesla's. We did a different thing by focusing on the last miles of mobility," Zhou said.
He said the company is also going to launch e-bikes or scooters, adding Wuling does not see itself as a car manufacturer anymore. It aspires to become a creative, popular and boundary-free lifestyle brand.
More articles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV)
https://www.yahoo.com/news/hottest-selling-electric-vehicle-not-163015125.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/hottest-selling-electric-vehicle-not-163015125.html)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2020/12/02/chinas-electric-car-revolution-is-being-led-by-the-hongguang-mini/?sh=7961898332ab (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2020/12/02/chinas-electric-car-revolution-is-being-led-by-the-hongguang-mini/?sh=7961898332ab)
(https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5fc7b7f2c788ba64cb6f78bb/960x0.jpg?fit=scale)
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/y7UFGVU3LcGyqyX0Xd5Dlw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTM5Ni41NjI1O2NmPXdlYnA-/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/uRi4oMxhEpPXVeKrUSRP5w--~B/aD03MjA7dz0xMjgwO2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://media.zenfs.com/en/axios_articles_623/dc1e770f24ccb0f386c7dc3c0684b53a)
(https://img2.chinadaily.com.cn/images/202103/15/604ec703a31024adbdbb21c4.png)
The point of transit is to move masses of people in a more efficient manner than clogging the street with more personal vehicles.
^ Agree Ennis. I didn't offer it as a substitute for mass transit other than noting what else we could do with $372 million destined for the Skyway. Of course, we all know the Skyway doesn't move masses of people. And, I don't see any other plans by the City to do so with other transit options other than the buses we already have that do an OK job but barely make a dent in moving masses of Jax residents.
Also, this isn't meant to be in lieu of mass transit but rather in lieu of conventional cars and, thus, it can be a complimentary middle ground between cars and mass transit. Its advantage in urban areas is it is all electric (non-polluting) and a "micro" vehicle taking up less space where space is often at a premium.
The success of the Skyway, LRT, bus, AV, name your desired transit technology, etc. are all going to be dependent on land use. They all will fail to meet any type of ridership forecast if we continue screwing them over on the one thing that generates a ridership base. Skyway and gas tax allocation aside for that specific mode, are you envisioning an environment where there are regulations that don't allow the personal freedom of owning and driving a conventional vehicle? Unless something that dramatic is done, it's hard to envision an all electric micro vehicle concept existing in high demand.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 20, 2021, 06:41:02 PM
The success of the Skyway, LRT, bus, AV, name your desired transit technology, etc. are all going to be dependent on land use. They all will fail to meet any type of ridership forecast if we continue screwing them over on the one thing that generates a ridership base. Skyway and gas tax allocation aside for that specific mode, are you envisioning an environment where there are regulations that don't allow the personal freedom of owning and driving a conventional vehicle? Unless something that dramatic is done, it's hard to envision an all electric micro vehicle concept existing in high demand.
Ennis, I was envisioning voluntary demand for the vehicle for the reasons it is so popular in China: User friendly, effective, environmentally friendly and cheap to acquire/utilize. Based on statistics in the articles, these vehicles also appear to have a strong appeal to younger people who already are less wedded to traditional cars than previous generations. All reasons people might be using the scooters today. On this basis, it won't be (at least fully) dependent on land use necessarily like the Skyway or other transit modes. People will buy/use them because they want them.
I know Jacksonville is light years away, but as you know, there are several global cities that are beginning to mostly or entirely ban/limit cars. As such, it is possible this solution could follow such decisions. Probably never see that here in our lifetimes due to our relatively low density, a downtown that is treading water at best and non-progressive leadership.
^ I think the key issue there is that what you're suggesting doesn't really fit what's generally been the trend in America. Smart didn't do well here. Honda, Toyota, Ford, and Nissan have largely axed their hatchbacks in the US market, and GM just introduced a Bolt "EUV." I don't really see how that EV would fare any differently. Americans seem to largely desire the biggest vehicle we can afford, irrespective of the actual utility of buying something of that size. Instead of cheaper vehicles, we're seeing longer loans and the focus put on monthly payments vs overall cost. It's a lot more likely that environmentally conscious younger people here (with the means, mind you) are going to either jump to something like the Volkswagen ID4 or live somewhere they can forego a car entirely. Land use is still going to be critical because it's a question of having to build and maintain the infrastructure for all of those little cars to drive on, and whether they're intended to do so in a compact urban environment or the longer distances of our existing suburbs.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 20, 2021, 09:11:14 PM
I know Jacksonville is light years away, but as you know, there are several global cities that are beginning to mostly or entirely ban/limit cars. As such, it is possible this solution could follow such decisions. Probably never see that here in our lifetimes due to our relatively low density, a downtown that is treading water at best and non-progressive leadership.
It just isn't Jacksonville that is light years away. So is NYC, Chicago, LA, Miami, etc. No major city in the US will be mostly or entirely banning or limiting personal cars in their limits anytime soon. That is something that's further out from the realm of reality than JTA's U2C dream for a variety of reasons.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 18, 2021, 07:37:58 PM
We'll see what the staying power is, but in my opinion, the scooters have been a big win for downtown.
Mentioned it before, but seeing a lot of new faces in the CBD having fun using the scooters recreationally.
Really lifts the overall vibe of the area.
Considering your somewhat pessimistic recent post, it's encouraging to see you feeling positive again about, of all things, scooters! :)
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 21, 2021, 10:26:36 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 18, 2021, 07:37:58 PM
We'll see what the staying power is, but in my opinion, the scooters have been a big win for downtown.
Mentioned it before, but seeing a lot of new faces in the CBD having fun using the scooters recreationally.
Really lifts the overall vibe of the area.
Considering your somewhat pessimistic recent post, it's encouraging to see you feeling positive again about, of all things, scooters! :)
Gotta take the small victories in Jacksonville ;D
Working downtown, you get used to seeing the same faces every day.
Since they brought in the scooters, I'm seeing a lot of new faces in the CBD, which is always a net positive. The faces are quite diverse as well, which is another net positive.
The scooters are a little thing, but the streets have been so bleak throughout the pandemic, with worker presence down and vagrant and openly drug-addled presence up, that it makes a big difference to see people riding aroundrecreationally with smiles on their faces. Reminds me of the old William H. Whyte quote, "the best way to handle the problem of undesirables is to make a place attractive to everyone else."
Hopefully while said new faces are downtown riding scooters, they're also spending money in shops, restaurants, food trucks, etc.
Yes, as far as I'm concerned, the scooters and new faces downtown are a welcome addition. They are one more activity the public can do in downtown that it can't find anywhere else in Jax.