Story: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/31/jta-laying-groundwork-for-downtown-passenger-rail.html
QuoteJTA laying groundwork for downtown passenger rail
by Will Robinson, Reporter, Jacksonville Business Journal
The board of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority voted unanimously Thursday to approve a grant application that would quicken freight trains traveling through San Marco, where trains have caused long delays, and help bring passenger rail service back to the downtown area.
The Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvement grant is a joint effort by the City of Jacksonville and JTA with the support of Florida East Coast Railway and CSX Corp. (Nasdaq: CSX). At an estimated cost of about $35 million, the project would update aging rail and signal infrastructures, which JTA CEO Nat Ford said were to blame for slow freight train speeds through the area.
"The grant would provide the funding necessary to fix the train chokepoint problem in the San Marco area," Ford told the board.
The grant is also a precursor to another JTA goal: getting passenger rail service downtown. Jacksonville's Amtrak station is currently about five miles northwest of the core of downtown.
"This will open the door for passenger rail to come back to the Prime Osborn Center," said Ford.
The Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center was the South's largest rail yard when constructed in 1919, according to the Jacksonville Historical Society. The station handled 20,000 passengers a day at its peak before service was discontinued in 1974.
The city-owned convention center is near JTA's soon-to-be headquarters, the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center in LaVilla. The JRTC is being built to be a hub that integrates bus lines, rideshares, bikeshares, autonomous vehicles and eventually commuter rail.
Ford told the Business Journal that if Jacksonville gets the CRISI grant, a commuter rail station could end up somewhere between the Prime Osborn and the JRTC.
"We're looking at the south side of the Prime Osborn," said Ford. "You'd be a block away from the JRTC."
But, Ford noted, that plan is dependent on the grant. JTA pursued a similar effort three years ago but was unable to get the consortium of railroads and agencies it needed for support.
"This reinvigorates that effort," he said.
A commuter rail line into downtown is essential to the area's development, according to a panel of experts from the Urban Land Institute commissioned by JTA. At a public forum in June, one of the ULI experts, Neal Payton, called a train station a "game changer."
"Press whoever you have to press to get that to happen," Payton said at the time.
Ford echoed the sentiment in Thursday's meeting.
"A lot is hinging on this project, and we're working diligently to bring it home," Ford told the board.
Good luck on this grant application!
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Transportation/Miscellaneous-Transit/i-4trQp4b/0/29879d90/L/IMG_0884-L.jpg)
QuoteThe Quiet Bid to Bring Passenger Rail Back Downtown
Though it has largely flown under the radar, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) and its partners have quietly launched an ambitious bid that could bring passenger rail back to Downtown Jacksonville, and spark millions in development in the process. First steps are underway with a $35 million federal grant application to update the city's aging rail infrastructure. If successful, the improvements could lead the way to restoring a passenger station at the Prime Osborn for the first time in over 40 years, potentially bringing Amtrak, Brightline, and commuter rail downtown. Could it work?
Full article: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-quiet-bid-to-bring-passenger-rail-back-downtown/
Although ignored by traditional media... Brightline offers a bigger opportunity for downtown than anything we've seen proposed for The District, the Shipyards and Lot J.
And it just so happens that a major transportation consultant (and spouse of a Florida East Coast Industries executive) is running for City Council in District 5, seeking to fill the office currently held by termed-out Lori Boyer.
Great article, fingers crossed on the grant.
Here's the old FEC photo tour from 2007:
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/mobile/article/2007-mar-fec-corridor-commuter-rail-photo-tour
After this article ran, JTA called and was expressed that despite what the CEO said to the Jacksonville Business Journal, they have no current plans for commuter rail. However, if the grant bid goes through, they'd better start giving serious thought to the prospect. This is exactly the place Brightline would come through to get to Jax, and they may come whether JTA is ready or not. Also, given how long the idea of bringing rail back to the Prime Osborn has been kicking around and drawing interest, there will come a point that the city's leadership and the public will will start pushing for it. JTA has a real opportunity here to establish a long-term vision.
Waiting on JTA for commuter rail is a pipe dream. It ain't happening anytime soon. Considering the limited operational characteristics identified in their last commuter rail study, I'm not even sure it's worth the time and money.
Assuming the rail infrastructure situation is handled, what it does do is open the door to bringing "intercity" rail back downtown. Both Amtrak and Brightline are forms of intercity rail. Brightline in particular, would be key Jax really benefiting from Transit Oriented Development opportunities in the vicinity of the old terminal and JRTC. The reason it would be key is because depending on the location of stations in cities between Jax and Central Florida, it could be possible for a St. Augustine stop. In that event, a link between DT Jax and historic St. Augustine with frequent service could be beneficial to commuter and tourism related land uses around these stops. That alone would be more economically beneficial to NE Florida than the lion's share of future transit talk currently happening locally.
So, the best thing for Jax right now is that Brightline routes between South and Central Florida continue to be a success, thus validating an expansion to Jax.
Having Brightline to Orlando and Miami would be great! I know that they had more passengers than they expected in the first few months down south, and I'm sure they would get good ridership from Jacksonville.
Brightline would be big. They also could come whether or not this particular bid is successful, and whether JTA has made any plans around it or not. And if they did come, it opens up even more cans of worms than this JTA proposal. Hopefully JTA is making preparations. IMO, there's a chance that if Brightline comes, it won't be Downtown, as is happening in Orlando.
Great article filled with good information. Fingers crossed!!!!!
JTA has been on a role for the past 5 years or so. I hope they get this done.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 11, 2018, 04:16:13 PM
Brightline would be big. They also could come whether or not this particular bid is successful, and whether JTA has made any plans around it or not. And if they did come, it opens up even more cans of worms than this JTA proposal. Hopefully JTA is making preparations. IMO, there's a chance that if Brightline comes, it won't be Downtown, as is happening in Orlando.
Big difference between Jacksonville, where they already own the trackage into downtown, and Orlando.
^Pretty much this. They don't own any track near downtown Orlando. Sunrail also already serves DT Orlando. The plan in Orlando is to connect Sunrail to Orlando International Airport and Brightline's stop there. I don't see how Orlando's Brightline stop location has any relationship to what may or may not happen in Jax.
This is not exactly comparable, but I have an example from Europe:
First one is the town in Sweden where my Grandma used to live (Höör) vs. the neighboring town (Hörby). The latter decided to do away with its railroad connection and station in the 60s - cars were the future, who needs rail. The former decided to keep it.
Both are only a few miles from each other and have roughly the same population (around 7,000)
In recent years, property prices have increased considerably in the railroad connected town vs. its neighbor as you do not only have a direct connection to the major cities in southern Sweden but after the Öresund bridge was built to Denmark you now also have a direct rail access to the Danish capital and its international airport, whereas if you want to get to Hörby you will either need to take the train + bus or a car. And this in spite of public transport being rather unreliable in the area.
I understand that rail / public transport is not really that important in the US right now, but I still fee it's a good investment for the future. May even help JIA if you can easily reach other destinations nearby (St. Augustine, Daytona, Gainesville... by rail from there).
That's one advantage Frankfurt Airport has over many other airports in Germany - fly there, take the train or bus directly to many other European cities.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2018, 01:14:18 AM
^Pretty much this. They don't own any track near downtown Orlando. Sunrail also already serves DT Orlando. The plan in Orlando is to connect Sunrail to Orlando International Airport and Brightline's stop there. I don't see how Orlando's Brightline stop location has any relationship to what may or may not happen in Jax.
That's just my own fear, based on the fact that Brightline has exclusively built their own new stations rather than going into old ones, and that's part of their business model. It's much more of a real estate project than a transportation project. And unlike other cities, Jax has given no sign that it's working with Brightline or even preparing for the possibility that they may come here.
The only major real estate FEC has left in Jax I'm aware of are around the Bowden yard (right by JTB, wouldn't be a bad spot for a station really) and a few areas south.
There are quite a few parcels around Prime Osborne (including the Prime Osborne itself) that either COJ or JTA control. Create a by-right TOD zoning Overlay and setup a LaVilla BID... and you have room for easily more than 1mm square feet of potential commercial/residential space on ready-to-market sites with built-in infrastructure financing at your disposal (along with historic tax credit financing and all sorts of creative incentives for the reuse of Prime Osborne site).... all with direct interstate highway access and rail infrastructure already in place. A company like Brightline would find that very attractive.
That potential blows the doors off anything at Shipyards or District.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 12, 2018, 10:55:56 AM
There are quite a few parcels around Prime Osborne (including the Prime Osborne itself) that either COJ or JTA control. Create a by-right TOD zoning Overlay and setup a LaVilla BID... and you have room for easily more than 1mm square feet of potential commercial/residential space on ready-to-market sites with built-in infrastructure financing at your disposal (along with historic tax credit financing and all sorts of creative incentives for the reuse of Prime Osborne site).... all with direct interstate highway access and rail infrastructure already in place. A company like Brightline would find that very attractive.
That potential blows the doors off anything at Shipyards or District.
That would be great - if the city were actively planning for it.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 12, 2018, 10:20:59 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2018, 01:14:18 AM
^Pretty much this. They don't own any track near downtown Orlando. Sunrail also already serves DT Orlando. The plan in Orlando is to connect Sunrail to Orlando International Airport and Brightline's stop there. I don't see how Orlando's Brightline stop location has any relationship to what may or may not happen in Jax.
That's just my own fear, based on the fact that Brightline has exclusively built their own new stations rather than going into old ones, and that's part of their business model.
I'll try to alleviate your fear somewhat. So far they've built 3 urban stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. There were no historic stations to take advantage of. Nevertheless, Miami's station (cool place, I visited it last night) is at the site of that city's original station. As for Orlando's station, that's an Orlando airport intermodal center. The airport built it. Brightline is just one of the modes tapping into it. Sunrail will be another transit system served by the airport project. To address Jax, while there is a portion of the old terminal complex remaining, new facilities will have to be built anyway.
QuoteIt's much more of a real estate project than a transportation project. And unlike other cities, Jax has given no sign that it's working with Brightline or even preparing for the possibility that they may come here.
Im the South Florida examples, other than Miami (FEC already owned the land), land was purchased for the station sites and surrounding development. In Orlando, that's an airport project, so I'm not sure their coordination has been super extensive. In Jax's situation, the station is owned by the city and is a development site, moreso than anything else along the FEC corridor outside of Bowden Yard (much of this is more suitable for industrial development and wet).
Nothing is on the horizon in Jax takes development out of the equation around the terminal. In fact, the JTA and DIA are working on a LaVilla development strategy right now to better facilitate TOD in the area.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 12, 2018, 10:59:00 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 12, 2018, 10:55:56 AM
There are quite a few parcels around Prime Osborne (including the Prime Osborne itself) that either COJ or JTA control. Create a by-right TOD zoning Overlay and setup a LaVilla BID... and you have room for easily more than 1mm square feet of potential commercial/residential space on ready-to-market sites with built-in infrastructure financing at your disposal (along with historic tax credit financing and all sorts of creative incentives for the reuse of Prime Osborne site).... all with direct interstate highway access and rail infrastructure already in place. A company like Brightline would find that very attractive.
That potential blows the doors off anything at Shipyards or District.
That would be great - if the city were actively planning for it.
Efforts are underway now on the creation of a development strategy. The first public meeting was last week. I don't know what the outcome will be but it does seem that an effort for TOD is being made as we speak.
I had to look up TOD. The most common results were: Transit Oriented Development and Transfer On Death. https://www.acronymfinder.com/TOD.html (https://www.acronymfinder.com/TOD.html) Hopefully we are talking about the former! ;D
Quote from: Kiva on September 12, 2018, 04:50:07 PM
I had to look up TOD. The most common results were: Transit Oriented Development and Transfer On Death. https://www.acronymfinder.com/TOD.html (https://www.acronymfinder.com/TOD.html) Hopefully we are talking about the former! ;D
Here's a good look on how Brightline's inter-city passenger rail service is spurring transit oriented development (the fun kind of TOD) around the state
https://www.moderncities.com/article/2016-jul-floridas-higher-speed-rail-tod-takes-shape (https://www.moderncities.com/article/2016-jul-floridas-higher-speed-rail-tod-takes-shape)
They are back to negotiating a potential station in the treasure coast. The RFP for the station says 'walkable to an urban center/downtown.'
Makes sense. There's no reason for them to build a station in a location where they can't benefit from being in a pedestrian scale environment with density.
Jax Chamber, along with the CEO of JTA and representatives from the mayor's office, were in Denver last week learning about Denver's downtown redevelopment efforts.
Apparently everyone was pretty blown away by Union Station, and there was a lot of discussion about how to turn the Prime Osborne back into a transit hub.
Well, at least they're talking about doing something like that after yet another trip to another city. Maybe *this* is finally the beginnings of a turning point towards re-repurposing the P.O.?
Yawn. They've known about Denver's station for years. It was included in a 2014 study JTA paid for. Tired of talk. Implement.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 15, 2018, 05:22:48 PM
Yawn. They've known about Denver's station for years. It was included in a 2014 study JTA paid for. Tired of talk. Implement.
One of the bad things about term limits is that institutional memory only lasts 4-8 years. There's no reason we can't have a rail station downtown and a working transit system, but it takes longer than 4 years to pull off.
This one doesn't fall on city hall. It also isn't rocket science and we're over a decade talking about this. We have +10 year old threads on this forum with JTA renderings of Amtrak at that station. Nat Ford has decades of transit experience in cities like NYC, Atlanta and San Francisco as well. Let's get it done.
From Ocklawaha's 2014 Denver Union Station photo tour:
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-nov-denver-union-station-a-real-transportation-center/page/
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Denver-Union-Station-A/i-nbfd8TH/0/be3726f9/L/DSC04556-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Denver-Union-Station-A/i-RJVrcQW/0/50220920/L/DSC04560-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Denver-Union-Station-A/i-dPSgw8W/0/38c76eae/L/DSC04615-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Denver-Union-Station-A/i-D8T7k3B/0/a6c8a5a6/L/DSC04658-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Denver-Union-Station-A/i-ZGFzNqm/0/f7cfe220/L/DSC04550-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Denver-Union-Station-A/i-HQjSbL3/0/437d17f0/L/DSC04549-L.jpg)
Quote from: KenFSU on October 15, 2018, 02:47:42 PM
Apparently everyone was pretty blown away by Union Station, and there was a lot of discussion about how to turn the Prime Osborne back into a transit hub.
Wait till they learn about San Francisco's trolleys and NYC's subway system. They're going to be very impressed.
JTA's 2004 plans to bring Amtrak and commuter rail back to the Prime Osborn:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/JRTC-Amtrak-Station-Plans-and/i-PdcHBrX/0/151f19f7/L/Amtrak-Front%20Rendering-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/JRTC-Amtrak-Station-Plans-and/i-rpT8nzB/0/0d30cf71/L/Amtrak-Front%20Elevation-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/JRTC-Amtrak-Station-Plans-and/i-mdmt7cN/0/22fce989/L/Amtrak%20Design%20Drawings_022704_Page_24-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/JRTC-Amtrak-Station-Plans-and/i-xBbqCNG/0/bc957317/L/Amtrak%20Design%20Drawings_022704_Page_06-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/JRTC-Amtrak-Station-Plans-and/i-RF8RFB8/0/2e5d1d9a/X2/Amtrak%20Design%20Drawings_022704_Page_08-X2.jpg)
More renderings: https://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JRTC-Amtrak-Station-Plans-and/
Quote from: Bill Hoff on October 15, 2018, 09:07:40 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on October 15, 2018, 02:47:42 PMand
Apparently everyone was pretty blown away by Union Station, and there was a lot of discussion about how to turn the Prime Osborne back into a transit hub.
Wait till they learn about San Francisco's trolleys and NYC's subway system. They're going to be very impressed.
They don't have to travel to learn. JTA CEO Nat Ford is pretty familiar with them. So if we truly want something, there should be no learning curve.
(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/07/76/50/2091523/11/920x920.jpg)
Quote2007-04-12 07:53:56 PDT -- Muni's chief took to the stations and trains today to monitor service and reassure testy riders, days after the transit agency opened a new streetcar line that has been slowing down service throughout the Metro system.
Standing at Embarcadero Station, where trains were moving through quickly, Nathaniel Ford vowed this morning to ride the rails and haunt the stations every day until the problems are fixed.
Full article: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Muni-boss-monitors-service-2603420.php
CSX is trying to sell their Panhandle line, which stretches from Jacksonville on the East, through Lake City, Tallahassee, Panama City, Pensacola, and ending in Mobile.
Any thoughts on whether this would be a viable line for passenger rail?
(http://www.fdot.gov/rail/Publications/Maps/FloridaRailMap2006.JPG)
I've heard from a credible source in the transportation industry that Brightline representatives have mentioned their desire to expand to Tallahassee in the future. I don't know the viable this line is for passenger rail but I assume it's less viable than first extending to Jax. I also believe it needs News Orleans as a destination to enhance the potential return of passenger rail on this corridor.
Not sure if it's what you're asking, but there used to be passenger rail on that line with Amtrak - the Sunset Limited. It was suspended after Hurricane Katrina and has apparently been hung up since then because Mississippi and Alabama haven't wanted to chip in for the restoration. Apparently traffic between New Orleans and Jax was a significant chunk of the whole line's traffic (it went to LA) so at least Amtrak would have an incentive to get it back on line. I don't know what Brightline could be planning except running a train on the same line between Jax and Tallahassee.
Deja Vu Y'all! I'm still watching from the my perch in Mount Dora... OR Medellin... Or Milwaukee...
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2018, 10:56:21 AM
Although ignored by traditional media... Brightline offers a bigger opportunity for downtown than anything we've seen proposed for The District, the Shipyards and Lot J.
And it just so happens that a major transportation consultant (and spouse of a Florida East Coast Industries executive) is running for City Council in District 5, seeking to fill the office currently held by termed-out Lori Boyer.
Brightline is probably as large an opportunity as a couple of new Fortune 500's landing downtown. Fact is, if ANYTHING can attract such new companies to our city, ultra-modern rail (Urban-Intrastate and Interstate) is key, otherwise the best of our presentations of downtown Jacksonville is simply a two-legged stool.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 11, 2018, 03:10:36 PM
Waiting on JTA for commuter rail is a pipe dream. It ain't happening anytime soon. Considering the limited operational characteristics identified in their last commuter rail study, I'm not even sure it's worth the time and money.
Precisely!
The key to local urban rail is Rapid-Streetcar (borrows from Light-Rail, but with smaller less costly infrastructure) to the Airport following the 'S' and/or 'F&J' route across the Trout along North Main and on to JIA. But there is ZERO INTEREST...
The key to commuter rail, IF and WHEN Brightline arrives and IF they serve St. Augustine is for JTA to use DMU's along the 'A-Line' (Roosevelt) to Green Cove Springs, or even an extension of Sunrail in a 'CALTRAIN' type service. Without Brightline it remains a pipe dream.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2018, 01:14:18 AM
^Pretty much this. They don't own any track near downtown Orlando. Sunrail also already serves DT Orlando. The plan in Orlando is to connect Sunrail to Orlando International Airport and Brightline's stop there. I don't see how Orlando's Brightline stop location has any relationship to what may or may not happen in Jax.
I believe Brightline already senses trouble on the Orlando leg, though they must have it, it is destined to be something of an operational oddity.
A Realestate-Transportation venture that misses both Realestate and the resident population is in trouble. Orlando is rightly very proud of their International Airport, but I've yet to meet the first resident who thinks driving 30 miles to a former Air Force Base is a good location. With more and more mid-rise residential towers going up, downtown is exploding... Two or three more 15+ story's announced just this AM. So by using a leased station with poor access to the core city, you have a huge bump in what should be a seamless trip. What they'll catch are thousands of tourist travelers, they'll get a trickle from locals and breaking a trip onto/off of Sunrail is a non-starter for most. Sunrail is sexy but its ridership is quite poor. Hundreds of Lynx Transit Buses (with abysmal scheduling) try and make the connections, one passenger here, two there. I believe this is why they suddenly jumped on the idea of 'TAMPA!' Even though they don't have any tracks in that direction. The sale of much of CSX intrastate could play a role in this, we'll have to watch.
Quote from: KenFSU on October 30, 2018, 10:58:59 AM
CSX is trying to sell their Panhandle line, which stretches from Jacksonville on the East, through Lake City, Tallahassee, Panama City, Pensacola, and ending in Mobile.
Any thoughts on whether this would be a viable line for passenger rail?
Depending on how much urban development/TOD they can produce in Tallahassee it might make the cut, but my gut is this famous 'Route of the Gulf Wind,' has very little potential for intercity passenger rail, especially with Amtrak set on destruction of the National Route System and going to a system of short corridors... Chipley, Crestview, Quincy, Monticello, Madison, Macclenny... Hardly the stuff dreams are made of. The reason I say GULF WIND, is there were actually two trains daily each way for a number of years until Amtrak in 1971. The state fought to get the route back and they were tossed a bone with an extended 'SUNSET LIMITED'. Undeniably the worst, slowest, unwanted tri-weekly train in the country. Gee no tickets to Marianna at 3 AM? What a shock. FYI - The Gulf Wind ran JACKSONVILLE-NEW ORLEANS, as did its sisters, passengers for Orlando, Miami, Tampa, Savannah, New York, or Chicago, Kansas City, Dallas, Los Angeles changed at one of the end-point terminals.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 30, 2018, 11:29:38 AM
I've heard from a credible source in the transportation industry that Brightline representatives have mentioned their desire to expand to Tallahassee in the future. I don't know the viable this line is for passenger rail but I assume it's less viable than first extending to Jax. I also believe it needs News Orleans as a destination to enhance the potential return of passenger rail on this corridor.
Many a drunken college student has boastfully exclaimed all sorts of grand plans, rarely have they ever come true.
Tallahassee for HSR makes no sense. It's about the same size as Fargo, ND and nearly as isolated. About the only practical difference is that one is famous for a wood chipper, the other the tomahawk chop.
All this talk of running a line to Tampa, running a line to JAX and now the rumors of Tallahassee has the making of making sure to touch every part of the state.
If I were a betting person, I'd say Brightline knows their business plan is toast without even more public monies. They're sowing the seeds of dreamy grand plans to try to go to the politicians hat-in-hand, looking for big funds.
Definitely not drunken college students. Time will tell if upper management in the respective organizations know what they're talking about or if bl8jaxnative is right about them being out of their minds.