Hey all, I have wondered for YEARS why every interstate 95/10 signage says "Jacksonville" instead of "Downtown" or "Downtown Jacksonville" or even "City Center" You are ALREADY in Jacksonville when you saw the "entering Duval County/Jacksonville City Limits" sign 5 miles ago lol
What are you guys thoughts on the improper signage up around town?
Or how about the fact that you DRIVE on a PARKWAY and PARK on a DRIVEWAY? WTF?!?!?!
I feel like we have bigger fish to try than trying to get FDOT to redo every street sign to mark where Downtown Jax is.
Also, I'm like 80% sure that the sign for the new exit by the Overland Bridge says Downtown on it.
Quote from: BossmanOdum10 on July 04, 2018, 12:41:21 AM
Hey all, I have wondered for YEARS why every interstate 95/10 signage says "Jacksonville" instead of "Downtown" or "Downtown Jacksonville" or even "City Center" You are ALREADY in Jacksonville when you saw the "entering Duval County/Jacksonville City Limits" sign 5 miles ago lol
What are you guys thoughts on the improper signage up around town?
A bigger issue with FDOT signage on our interstates is that there are almost no signs for attractions or landmarks in the urban core (or anywhere else for that matter unless you are satisfied with just colleges (including for profits), malls (how!?), NAS, the airport and the stadium (complete with corporate sponsor name on it to get more $$$ for the Jags?) getting recognition. In a rarity for here, I think maybe the Zoo also has a sign). Even the signs that are up seem to be at the exits on a last minute basis, not promoted on mileage signs or well in advance.
Virtually no signs for historic districts or sites, parks, attractions (e.g. Riverwalk?), museums, farmers market, landmarks (they used to show the name of a river at bridge crossings but I don't recall seeing that anymore so does our biggest landmark, the St. Johns River, even get a mention or is it just a blob of water to tourists?), theaters, entertainment districts (do we really have one?), major government buildings like City Hall or the Courthouse, etc. The Beaches (generically - not individually) and Orange Park get a nod but it appears mainly because they are incorporated towns. FYI, Orlando took it up a notch with a changeable billboard on I-4 (at least before they started rebuilding it) that promoted events or attractions du jour. You can tell Orlando knows how to engage tourists :).
To add, when you travel I-95 from south of Daytona, many mileage signs point the way to Daytona, not Jax, while going south, they point the way to Miami. Georgia actually gives Jax more recognition on I-95 than FDOT in my opinion. Also, look at the signs on I-295 that promote Daytona, Lake City (really?! - over highlighting our direct link to the state capitol?) and Savannah without indicating Downtown as a destination of interest.
I put most of the blame on our civic leaders as it is clear they are asleep at the wheel and are not pressuring FDOT for more recognition of the area. A missed opportunity at low cost given the millions of visitors reached for just the cost of a few signs. Just another example of our fine City's lack of vision, coherent planning and execution.
Keep in mind, it took years just to get the names of our bridges on FDOT signs so this is a long simmering issue here.
Speaking of signage for attractions, I noticed on the Overland Bridge project they added a sign for the......Landing!
Quote from: thelakelander on July 04, 2018, 11:31:45 PM
Speaking of signage for attractions, I noticed on the Overland Bridge project they added a sign for the......Landing!
I would put that in the "mall" category. Funny, too, as Sleiman probably lobbied for that himself as you know the City wasn't going to ask :).
The Springfield Historic District does appear on an exit sign for, I believe, 8th Street.
Like any highway agency, there are rules. The relevant rules to the questions here relate to Control Cities (why "Jacksonville" appears as a destination within the city/county limits) and Supplemental Signs. The controlling rules come from the Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD), that provides national standards for signs and pavement markings; with Chapter 2E Expressway Guide Signs being relevant - https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r1r2/part2e.pdf
Two Florida-specific documents include a PowerPoint explaining Control Cities http://www.fdot.gov/traffic/pdf/control_city_pres_web.pdf - basically, they are to be places where interstates come together (Daytona Beach, Jacksonville, Lake City), or the ends of Interstates (Miami). I believe Tallahassee is on the signs after you pass I-75 in Lake City.
And, rules for Supplemental Signs - http://flrules.elaws.us/fac/14-51 This Rule includes guidance for what can, and cannot, appear on freeway and exit signs. There are minimum activity levels, and maximum distances from the exit.
For FDOT to consider signs for places like the Historic Districts, they have to be on the National Register, on the official FDOT Map, and the City must provide signs between the exit and the Historic District (among other things). And, as pointed out, the City must request the signs. Shopping malls are based on minimum square feet, and activity - not sure how the Landing made the cut.
I don't know why the names of the rivers are not signed on the Interstates - the rules allow it. Although, according to Google Street View, there are Trout River signs on I-95, but no St. Johns River signs on I-295, either at Dames Point or Buckman.
Ron Tittle is the Public Information Officer for the Jacksonville FDOT office - 360-5647
One thing I don't seem to understand is the fact that bridge names seem to be unimportant to FDOT. I actually wrote FDOT about the overland bridge signage, which I think is poor:
1 - There are no signs indicating the new Northbound Exit (348) is for the Main St. and Acosta Bridges (only after you take the exit). Are there any plans to add signs for that? My feeling is it's a little unclear now as the primary things you see on the signs are Philips Highway and Atlantic Blvd (neither of which are on the Northbank).
2 - Going southbound, the exit sign for Philips Highway is unclear as you can go North on Philips Highway/Kings Avenue (not sure the exact point that Philips ends and Kings begins). I realize that it's technically correct as US 1 jogs off of Philips highway so you can't actually go North on US 1 from the exit, but shouldn't there be signs at least indicating that you can get to Atlantic Blvd West from that off ramp? One of the biggest positives from the reconstruction is that you can now get to San Marco from both the north and south exit, which wasn't really possible before.
Quote from: Adam White on July 04, 2018, 04:46:12 AM
Or how about the fact that you DRIVE on a PARKWAY and PARK on a DRIVEWAY? WTF?!?!?!
Do you really want to know the answer?
For sure Jax could a lot more signs like this. We actually don't have a lot of attractions so we will have to "fake it 'til we make it".
(http://media-cdn.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2013/07/17/Towing_Museum_sign_t755_h395f277cce155da8ca71bf225616bd8ea2449c6e.JPG)
Items that could be called out:
The Landing
5-Points
Cummer
Museum of Contemporary Art
Museum of Southern History
Florida Theater
Convention Center
Area beaches on the East Beltway
Zoo
TIAA Field
Veterans Arena
Baseball Grounds
Just for fun a few years ago I did a complete downtown way finding system. Would be nice to see that done as well.
Quote from: Kerry on July 05, 2018, 04:09:09 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 04, 2018, 04:46:12 AM
Or how about the fact that you DRIVE on a PARKWAY and PARK on a DRIVEWAY? WTF?!?!?!
Do you really want to know the answer?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/CXAPW8vCQzYkg/giphy.gif)
Charlotte has wayfarer signs by area on the 77. The equivalent here could be Northbank, Southbank, Sports Complex. Each sign would list the attractions and the appropriate exit to take.
The zoo appears on the exit signs for Heckscher Drive on 95, as does Kingsley Plantation and the Timucuan Preserve.
Those Charlotte signs jaxjags noted are excellent.
Quote from: Kerry on July 05, 2018, 04:19:24 PM
For sure Jax could a lot more signs like this. We actually don't have a lot of attractions so we will have to "fake it 'til we make it".
(http://media-cdn.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2013/07/17/Towing_Museum_sign_t755_h395f277cce155da8ca71bf225616bd8ea2449c6e.JPG)
Items that could be called out:
The Landing - although someone said it has signs on the new Overland Bridge, it isn't big enough (1 million sq.ft.)
5-Points - not a regional mall, not a historic district
Cummer -
Museum of Contemporary Art
Museum of Southern History - do any of these museums have more than 100,000 visitors a year?
Florida Theater
Convention Center - more than 200,000 visitors/year; also, some of the exit signs on I-95 include the Convention Center
Area beaches on the East Beltway - JTB exits include, but not Atlantic or Beach Blvds. - good question
Zoo - on some exit signs on I-95 and I-295, part of the reason the City changed western Heckscher Drive to Zoo Parkway
TIAA Field - I think it is on some I-95 exits
Veterans Arena
Baseball Grounds - part of the more generic Sports Complex, a problem, because listing all 3 would be too many lines on the Interstate signs
Just for fun a few years ago I did a complete downtown way finding system. Would be nice to see that done as well. - was that the one with different colors for different parts of downtown/southbank? I saw, and liked, that - shame COJ couldn't get the money together
But, the City would have to request the signs on the Interstate exits, then install "trailblazer" signs to guide traffic from the exit to the destination.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 05, 2018, 05:17:11 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 05, 2018, 04:19:24 PM
For sure Jax could a lot more signs like this. We actually don't have a lot of attractions so we will have to "fake it 'til we make it".
(http://media-cdn.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2013/07/17/Towing_Museum_sign_t755_h395f277cce155da8ca71bf225616bd8ea2449c6e.JPG)
Items that could be called out:
The Landing - although someone said it has signs on the new Overland Bridge, it isn't big enough (1 million sq.ft.)
5-Points - not a regional mall, not a historic district
Cummer -
Museum of Contemporary Art
Museum of Southern History - do any of these museums have more than 100,000 visitors a year?
Florida Theater
Convention Center - more than 200,000 visitors/year; also, some of the exit signs on I-95 include the Convention Center
Area beaches on the East Beltway - JTB exits include, but not Atlantic or Beach Blvds. - good question
Zoo - on some exit signs on I-95 and I-295, part of the reason the City changed western Heckscher Drive to Zoo Parkway
TIAA Field - I think it is on some I-95 exits
Veterans Arena
Baseball Grounds - part of the more generic Sports Complex, a problem, because listing all 3 would be too many lines on the Interstate signs
Just for fun a few years ago I did a complete downtown way finding system. Would be nice to see that done as well. - was that the one with different colors for different parts of downtown/southbank? I saw, and liked, that - shame COJ couldn't get the money together
But, the City would have to request the signs on the Interstate exits, then install "trailblazer" signs to guide traffic from the exit to the destination.
Then they better get busy. Honestly, most cities have professional that work for them who do this kind of stuff as part of their job. 5 Points doesn't have to be a historic district. I see highway signage for lots of places that aren't historic districts. As for the museums - no they don't get 200,000 visitors and that is the problem. With proper signage they would see an attendance boost. The City should be proactive in this type of stuff but again, it's Jax where the motto seems to be, "Doing the bare minimum...and sometimes not even that much".
Decided to check the placement of the Springfield signs. They aren't even on the freeway. They are at the bottom of the north and south bound exits ramps.
Guide signs are to guide you to and from the roads connected to Interstate freeways, not to advertise local businesses. Setting aside the headache of having countless destination signs in one of the busiest and most confusing interchanges in the city, do you REALLY think having signs on the side of the freeway will actually pull people off their commute and into these places? If people were really interested in finding these places they wouldn't they have a much easier time finding the hours, location, price, etc. by using their smartphone? Take a look at the fact that the Landing is currently listed on the I-95 signs. Is that magically becoming a hotspot because it's advertised on the freeway?
Also worth noting that the signing and pavement marking plan for each of these major RFP/Design-Build projects is initially composed by one team, approved by FDOT (District 2 in our case) and then ultimately designed by the final design firm/contractor joint venture. The city has little to no say AFAIK. Plus, what EXACTLY would they chose? Which business/historical district/museum makes the cut to be advertised on the freeway? Why didn't that OTHER museum/park/district get the mention? How is that fair? Why does the DB firm get to pick and choose?
There are a lot of legitimate grievances on this forum, but this really seems like a grasp at straws for an item that has a lot less of an effect than y'all seem to think it has...
[This is all opinion, Charles Hunter already killed it on the technical side with his citation of the MUTCD]
Spoken like a true engineer. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I run into people everyday around downtown the literally tell me, "I have lived here my whole life and didn't know this (whatever this happens to be at the time) was here."
Likewise, I travel a lot and yes these signs do entice me to stop at places that I either didn't know even existed or was unaware how close I am to them. I specifically looked for the International Towing and Recovery sign because I did go there specifically because I saw THAT sign.
In addition, we live in tourism state with 3 cruise ships a week in port (2 Carnival and 1 American). People come here whose only interest in Jax is this is where their ship departs. They don't know what Jax has to offer. A few years ago the State of Oklahoma started marketing I-35 as Adventure Road and every town/city has put up highway signs to lure visitors. Some towns have little to advertise and others have a lot - but they are trying - and some will say with lots of success.
My advice - put the little green book down.
https://www.adventureroad.com/
Quote from: jax_hwy_engineer on July 06, 2018, 03:30:59 PM
Guide signs are to guide you to and from the roads connected to Interstate freeways, not to advertise local businesses. Setting aside the headache of having countless destination signs in one of the busiest and most confusing interchanges in the city, do you REALLY think having signs on the side of the freeway will actually pull people off their commute and into these places? If people were really interested in finding these places they wouldn't they have a much easier time finding the hours, location, price, etc. by using their smartphone? Take a look at the fact that the Landing is currently listed on the I-95 signs. Is that magically becoming a hotspot because it's advertised on the freeway?
Also worth noting that the signing and pavement marking plan for each of these major RFP/Design-Build projects is initially composed by one team, approved by FDOT (District 2 in our case) and then ultimately designed by the final design firm/contractor joint venture. The city has little to no say AFAIK. Plus, what EXACTLY would they chose? Which business/historical district/museum makes the cut to be advertised on the freeway? Why didn't that OTHER museum/park/district get the mention? How is that fair? Why does the DB firm get to pick and choose?
There are a lot of legitimate grievances on this forum, but this really seems like a grasp at straws for an item that has a lot less of an effect than y'all seem to think it has...
[This is all opinion, Charles Hunter already killed it on the technical side with his citation of the MUTCD]
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 05, 2018, 12:43:20 PM
Like any highway agency, there are rules. The relevant rules to the questions here relate to Control Cities (why "Jacksonville" appears as a destination within the city/county limits) and Supplemental Signs. The controlling rules come from the Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD), that provides national standards for signs and pavement markings; with Chapter 2E Expressway Guide Signs being relevant - https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r1r2/part2e.pdf
Two Florida-specific documents include a PowerPoint explaining Control Cities http://www.fdot.gov/traffic/pdf/control_city_pres_web.pdf - basically, they are to be places where interstates come together (Daytona Beach, Jacksonville, Lake City), or the ends of Interstates (Miami). I believe Tallahassee is on the signs after you pass I-75 in Lake City.
And, rules for Supplemental Signs - http://flrules.elaws.us/fac/14-51 This Rule includes guidance for what can, and cannot, appear on freeway and exit signs. There are minimum activity levels, and maximum distances from the exit.
For FDOT to consider signs for places like the Historic Districts, they have to be on the National Register, on the official FDOT Map, and the City must provide signs between the exit and the Historic District (among other things). And, as pointed out, the City must request the signs. Shopping malls are based on minimum square feet, and activity - not sure how the Landing made the cut.
I don't know why the names of the rivers are not signed on the Interstates - the rules allow it. Although, according to Google Street View, there are Trout River signs on I-95, but no St. Johns River signs on I-295, either at Dames Point or Buckman.
Ron Tittle is the Public Information Officer for the Jacksonville FDOT office - 360-5647
A few comments re: the above quotes, particularly the ones I added bold to:
Re: rules: Rules are usually subject to interpretation. Also, many rules provide for a process to create exceptions. And, if rules are not getting the job done, they can be changed. I recall a big conversation here when FDOT-types insisted FDOT/Federal interstate rules prevented buildng a pedestrian/bike path along an interstate when it came up regarding the Fuller Warren/I95 bridge. Posters soon posted pictures from around the country showing examples of it being done elsewhere. And, lo and behold, FDOT is now building such a pathway along the Fuller Warren/I95 bridge! Likewise, posters are again posting about observations of other communities getting more favorable signage on interstates than we do in Jax.
Re: Other comments: The signs already up ARE advertising businesses! The Landing, malls, TIAA Field (TIAA and Jaguars), dog tracks, for-profit colleges (Fla. Coastal Law School), golf tournament (PGA), Nocatee (private developer), etc. Plus, one can argue that certain "public" facilities exist for the benefit of private businesses, such as the airport (airlines), the port (freight companies, importers/exporters), the arena (promoters of concerts), cruise terminal (Carnival), etc.
I have personally exited interstates to see sites/landmarks highlighted on signs. How does one learn about many of them without the signs? You are assuming that everyone traveling the interstates has researched every exit for hundreds of miles to scour for sites of interest. That isn't feasible. Plus, many joys of travel are derived from making spontaneous discoveries in the course of travel. And, if road signs did not drive traffic, why all the "blue boards" on interstates and billboards alongside them?
Finally, you will not convince me that City leaders can't influence signage. It is self-evident as you travel, which communities have influence over signs and which haven't based on the disproportionate distribution of them and inconsistent application of the "rules." The reality is FDOT is clearly influenced by politics, like it or not (just look at where they build new roads to satisfy developers making big contributions to politicos starting with our Outer Beltway that every private toll road operator said wasn't feasible when asked to bid on it).
Sure, you can't put up a sign for everything but in the case of Jacksonville, we almost have no signs for anything :).