I have seen it unfortunately get worse and worse over the past year from my office on the other side of the river. At this point it almost resembles a retention pond fountain most of the time. Am I missing something here or did we not spend $3.1 million in 2010 to replace everything?
When it reopened I was beyond impressed with the lighting and musical elements as we almost had a Jacksonville version of the Bellagio Fountains in Las Vegas (well....maybe not that nice but nice for ole' Duval :) )
I wish the city would do something about it and actually work to maintain it (among other things downtown)
It is indeed sad - it is as if this administration doesn't care at all about it
Right after they replace the neon lighting on the Acosta.....
Quote from: UrbanRailroader on May 29, 2018, 04:49:35 PMAm I missing something here or did we not spend $3.1 million in 2010 to replace everything?
It's complicated.
Yes. the city did in fact spend $3.1 million to restore Friendship Fountain in 2010.
More specifically, the 2010 money was primarily spent on replacing the pumps, adding new pipes, turning the area surrounding Friendship Fountain into a new park, and installing the new electrical controls, computer system, speakers, and lighting for the Bellagio-style fountain show that you reference.
Fast forward to 2018, and there's good news, bad news, unacceptable news, and hopeful news.
The good news is, with the exception of the LED lights within the fountain, all of the 2010 additions are in very good condition, with components having an expected lifespan of 30-50 more years. The expensive audio system and the computers controlling the music and lights are 100% fine.
The bad news is, Friendship Fountain needs $1 million in additional repairs to return it to its 2010 glory. Around $350,000 of that is purely structural wear and tear to the fountain and pump house (concrete repair, recoating the fountain interior, resealing joints, etc). $110,000 is mechanical (nozzles, AC unit and exhaust fan for the pump house, etc.). $300,000 is electrical (lighting and control). And $185,000 is architectural (repairs to the park).
The unacceptable news is that, while the city has done a good job keeping up with the surrounding park, there's a lot of evidence that the city has done a really crappy job maintaining Friendship Fountain itself.
The reason that all the nozzles and fixtures are so heavily corroded, and the reason that the fountain looks like a gross retention pond full of algae and mildew, is because the water quality is really shitty. Rather than routinely testing the chlorine levels and balancing the chemicals as needed, we're just dumping chemicals into the fountain at set intervals. This causes massive spikes and valleys in the chlorine levels, which in turn leads to corrosion, pitting, and deterioration of the components.
The biggest failure from the 2010 work comes from the lights within the fountain. Roughly 60% of the lights installed within the fountain in 2010 are no longer operational. Worse, the parts are now obsolete and can't be easily replaced, so the entire lighting system will need to be replaced at around $105,000. Poor water maintenance is a contributing factor in these fixtures failing, taking in water, and ultimately shorting out.
Even worse, per a recent study, we might be lucky that only $1 million in repairs are needed, as the most expensive components of the fountain aren't being properly serviced:
(https://snag.gy/QMZx5X.jpg)
All that said, there's a plan in place to restore Friendship Fountain to 2010 levels, with added enhancements to the surrounding park to make it more interactive.
And, from what I understand, the working plan is to basically install a glorified aquarium filter in the pump house to idiot-proof the maintenance of water quality.
It sucks that the fountain has been reduced to a trickle, but compared to the damage that could be done by running it full blast, it's good that we don't push it too hard until it's fully repaired.
Hopefully, by the time it's back online, there are actual maintenance dollars allocated beyond the ribbon-cutting to prevent this from happening again.
Good grief: from the state of the Landing to the Berkman Carcass to Friendship Fountain, sounds like some very basic problems of resource coordination and upkeep. Not a good look Jax and not a way to build downtown's brand no matter how many incentives have been doled out.
Have been filed out
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 30, 2018, 08:09:22 AM
Good grief: from the state of the Landing to the Berkman Carcass to Friendship Fountain, sounds like some very basic problems of resource coordination and upkeep. Not a good look Jax and not a way to build downtown's brand no matter how many incentives have been doled out.
Have been filed out
I get anxiety every time someone proposes a new park because I know it's just a matter of time it falls into disrepair due to lack of maintenance. Jacksonville is full of half @$$ed parks that are now overgrown or covered in trash. I would rather us cut the number of parks down to a number that we are able to maintain. Having just come back from San Francisco, they have fewer parks but they are kept pristine. That is more impactful than a greater number of mediocre parks.
In it's history, Jacksonville has always had problems with routine maintenance on many of it's assets. Be it parks, river walks, fountains, or infrastructure. They build something, let it deteriorate, then abandon it or rebuild. Anyone who has ever owned a swimming pool knows how critical and easy is to check the ph and chorine levels in a pool. Anyone who has owned a dock or deck knows it's important to fasten the decking to keep up with nature. The city will cite and fine landowners for overgrown property, yet allow their property to decay. It's all about leadership. We have department heads who are political. Instead of maintenance we spend much more on complete rebuilds. We balk at adding/keeping well led maintenance staff and instead hire consultants and politically connected contractors. Things never change.
Good thing the stewards for the current state of affairs at Friendship Fountain (and accompanying marina and River City Brewing Company.. both of which are falling into the river) are looking to take over the Landing ::)
Coming from someone who works with COJ Parks all year, I can tell you that the department is stretched to the max and one hand never seems to know what the other is doing. And I'm all for volunteer orgs to handle basic park maintenance, but most of us are completely unable to cover the cost of major infrastructure repairs and replacements.
Unless it's a pet project of a higher ranking official, a council member or comes with private financing from a Weaver or a Pajcic, I wouldn't hold your breath.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 30, 2018, 01:19:07 PM
I'm all for volunteer orgs to handle basic park maintenance, but most of us are completely unable to cover the cost of major infrastructure repairs and replacements.
See: Memorial Park.
100 years old, an Olmsted original, and for my money, the crown jewel of our public parks in Jacksonville.
10 months after Irma, we still have bicycle racks in place of the damaged railing.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 30, 2018, 01:24:33 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 30, 2018, 01:19:07 PM
I'm all for volunteer orgs to handle basic park maintenance, but most of us are completely unable to cover the cost of major infrastructure repairs and replacements.
See: Memorial Park.
100 years old, an Olmsted original, and for my money, the crown jewel of our public parks in Jacksonville.
10 months after Irma, we still have bicycle racks in place of the damaged railing.
But everytime I'm in the building, they're talking about getting this NEW park online here and this NEW park online there. Since I've been the director (about 6 years), things have progressively gone downhill with regards to response. I've been trying to get a damaged roof replaced for over 2 years. Still trying to get new lights for over 5 years. Still dealing with hurricane Matthew damage. Still dealing with an unlit parking lot.
And we've had the 'lease' on the park for over 20 years, so it's not like we're a NEW group that's going to bail.
Everything being described regarding park maintenance or the lack thereof, is a by-product of years of not adequately funding the basic, core functions of government. JAX spends a very low amount on park maintenance and upkeep and it shows. Low taxes, big giveaways to businesses and developers, and no private involvement all lead to a weak park system, among other things.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 30, 2018, 02:26:13 PM
Everything being described regarding park maintenance or the lack thereof, is a by-product of years of not adequately funding the basic, core functions of government. JAX spends a very low amount on park maintenance and upkeep and it shows. Low taxes, big giveaways to businesses and developers, and no private involvement all lead to a weak park system, among other things.
I'm willing to spend some extra money if it means a good park system, but I think it will be more of what NRW describes if they have more money. The potential elevated park instead of the skyway is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard, but they'd rather spend millions on that than maintain what they have.
With a measly $2M, they could bring another 6-8 people on staff for 5 years and spread the support over the city. I don't know the size of the entire department, but the guys that I talk to the most tell me about parks (just like mine) that have similar issues (just like mine) that they are in charge of handling across the entire city. This doesn't include the 200 (don't quote me) or so that don't have an association actively managing the space.
Couple that with the private contractors for cleaning, maintenance, mowing, etc... and minimal accountability due to not enough staff to manage the private contracts and what little budget they have is being completely wasted.
So can we find a way to blame Khan and the Jaguars? I mean it's because of them downtown is in the state it Is!
I think reply 11 did... :)
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/friendship-fountain-needs-fixing-again
Boyer is on it.
QuoteBoyer has an ambitious plan to turn the Friendship Fountain into a destination point. News4Jax asked Mayor Lenny Curry about that Tuesday.
A fountain basically in the middle of nothing is never going to be a 'destination point'.
Friendship Park is proof you just can't slap down some green space and expect people to flock to it. If Jax wants to see what Friendship Park could be they should take a look at Myriad Gardens in Oklahoma City. OKC spent $38 million renovating back in 2011 so don't expect it to be duplicated in Jax any time soon. Also, Oklahoma City doesn't have near the downtown homeless population Jax has so even if we had nice public space a lot of the public wouldn't want to use it.
http://oklahomacitybotanicalgardens.com/
(http://cdn.onlyinyourstate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/ok127-11-700x525.jpg)
(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/display/239911c4-af56-4db6-bda3-4bdb07a13cc8.JPG)
(https://cdnassets.hw.net/dims4/GG/81ca6a6/2147483647/thumbnail/876x580%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2F7c%2F9b%2F8d695f354f92b2198c0c70340b60%2F0cafd708382d4b279b24ec1a9ef20658.jpg)
(http://www.metrofamilymagazine.com/images/cache/cache_e/cache_6/cache_3/summermoviesseriesmbglarge-24e9336e.jpeg?ver=1495083655&aspectratio=1.5009380863039)
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 08:33:56 AM
Friendship Park is proof you just can't slap down some green space and expect people to flock to it. If Jax wants to see what Friendship Park could be they should take a look at Myriad Gardens in Oklahoma City. OKC spent $38 million renovating back in 2011 so don't expect it to be duplicated in Jax any time soon. Also, Oklahoma City doesn't have near the downtown homeless population Jax has so even if we had nice public space a lot of the public wouldn't want to use it.
http://oklahomacitybotanicalgardens.com/
(http://cdn.onlyinyourstate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/ok127-11-700x525.jpg)
(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/display/239911c4-af56-4db6-bda3-4bdb07a13cc8.JPG)
(https://cdnassets.hw.net/dims4/GG/81ca6a6/2147483647/thumbnail/876x580%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2F7c%2F9b%2F8d695f354f92b2198c0c70340b60%2F0cafd708382d4b279b24ec1a9ef20658.jpg)
(http://www.metrofamilymagazine.com/images/cache/cache_e/cache_6/cache_3/summermoviesseriesmbglarge-24e9336e.jpeg?ver=1495083655&aspectratio=1.5009380863039)
Simms...is that you? Did you change your name and move to OKC?
Quote from: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 06:31:40 AM
QuoteBoyer has an ambitious plan to turn the Friendship Fountain into a destination point. News4Jax asked Mayor Lenny Curry about that Tuesday.
A fountain basically in the middle of nothing is never going to be a 'destination point'.
Definitely feels isolated with the current layout, but it actually shares a parcel with the MOSH.
Boyer's pitch to the city will aim to better integrate the two, while adding additional elements (particularly for kids) to make it more of a destination.
Don't forget, the MOSH has long wanted to double or triple its square footage, while reconfiguring its entrance to open up to the Friendship Fountain side.
The area is potentially a
great destination spot, with some changes.
(https://snag.gy/iSzEA6.jpg)
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on June 13, 2018, 07:06:10 AM
I am probably in the minority but to me it is a massive waste of space/money. When you have the St Johns river 50 feet away, not sure it is necessary to spend millions on the Taj Mahal of water features.
Love me a good water feature, as long as it's properly maintained. Sadly, we don't seem to have the ability to do so.
Still think this new alcove created by the Coastline project is the perfect spot for a lit river fountain:
(https://gaiconsultants.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Coastline-and-Liberty_01.jpg)
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 08:33:56 AMAlso, Oklahoma City doesn't have near the downtown homeless population Jax has so even if we had nice public space a lot of the public wouldn't want to use it.
William Whyte famously said, "The best way to handle the problem of undesirables is to make a place attractive to everyone else." If we build nice, welcoming spaces, people will use them. It's worked in dozens of other cities around the country, and Jacksonville is no different.
Quote from: KenFSU on June 13, 2018, 09:32:32 AM
Quote from: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 06:31:40 AM
QuoteBoyer has an ambitious plan to turn the Friendship Fountain into a destination point. News4Jax asked Mayor Lenny Curry about that Tuesday.
A fountain basically in the middle of nothing is never going to be a 'destination point'.
Definitely feels isolated with the current layout, but it actually shares a parcel with the MOSH.
Boyer's pitch to the city will aim to better integrate the two, while adding additional elements (particularly for kids) to make it more of a destination.
Don't forget, the MOSH has long wanted to double or triple its square footage, while reconfiguring its entrance to open up to the Friendship Fountain side.
The area is potentially a great destination spot, with some changes.
(https://snag.gy/iSzEA6.jpg)
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on June 13, 2018, 07:06:10 AM
I am probably in the minority but to me it is a massive waste of space/money. When you have the St Johns river 50 feet away, not sure it is necessary to spend millions on the Taj Mahal of water features.
Love me a good water feature, as long as it's properly maintained. Sadly, we don't seem to have the ability to do so.
Still think this new alcove created by the Coastline project is the perfect spot for a lit river fountain:
(https://gaiconsultants.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Coastline-and-Liberty_01.jpg)
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 08:33:56 AMAlso, Oklahoma City doesn't have near the downtown homeless population Jax has so even if we had nice public space a lot of the public wouldn't want to use it.
William Whyte famously said, "The best way to handle the problem of undesirables is to make a place attractive to everyone else." If we build nice, welcoming spaces, people will use them. It's worked in dozens of other cities around the country, and Jacksonville is no different.
I know it shares the same parcel with MOSH - but let's be fair about it: MOSH is abysmal and needs to be put out of its misery. And, it's not open very late (I think the latest is Fridays....8PM). So when people are at MOSH, the all-singing, all-dancing lighted fountain won't be very impressive.
Edit: I realise you are saying MOSH could be expanded/bettered. I'd prefer that over the fountain and would want to see significant development in the area before throwing more money at (or in) the fountain.
Quote from: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 09:22:25 AM
Simms...is that you? Did you change your name and move to OKC?
Nope, I have always just been me. For what its worth, OKC residents feel like they are barely keeping up with their regional peer cities as well. A few years ago all OKC City officials, senior public works staff, planning staff, and many local developers went through the New Urbanism program (not mandatory but highly encouraged) from the University of Miami paid for by the City. Maybe Jax needs to start there.
it also helps that the local newspaper is fully on-board with urbanism and has a journalist on staff whose sole job is to report on downtown developments. He even hosts an on-line session every Friday to update residents. You should check it out.
https://newsok.com/article/5505468/oklahoma-citys-growth-a-path-thats-unsustainable
https://newsok.com/more/steve-lackmeyer
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 09:54:55 AM
Quote from: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 09:22:25 AM
Simms...is that you? Did you change your name and move to OKC?
Nope, I have always just been me. For what its worth, OKC residents feel like they are barely keeping up with their regional peer cities as well. A few years ago all OKC City officials, senior public works staff, planning staff, and many local developers went through the New Urbanism program (not mandatory but highly encouraged) from the University of Miami paid for by the City. Maybe Jax needs to start there.
I was just joking, of course. It's just you've posted a LOT of OKC stuff lately. Simms tended to do that for Atlanta, SF or wherever he moved. Obvs I miss the lil guy, as I can't seem to go more than a month or two without posting a Simms-related 'joke'.
OKC just happens to be good model for Jax. Same population, same land area, same demographics. Omaha would be good model as well. There is so much good urbanism going in Omaha people in Jax would curl up in a ball and cry if they saw it.
FWIW The Southbank Riverwalk seems to stay pretty busy. I persoanlly dont care as much about the flashy lights and music, just make the fountain shoot water like it's supposed to.
Quote from: acme54321 on June 13, 2018, 10:08:34 AM
FWIW The Southbank Riverwalk seems to stay pretty busy. I persoanlly dont care as much about the flashy lights and music, just make the fountain shoot water like it's supposed to.
When built, it was the tallest fountain the world.
What would help the Southbank is removing the Main Street viaduct and reworking that entire stretch of street frontage. Any how, that won't happen.
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 10:19:49 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on June 13, 2018, 10:08:34 AM
FWIW The Southbank Riverwalk seems to stay pretty busy. I persoanlly dont care as much about the flashy lights and music, just make the fountain shoot water like it's supposed to.
When built, it was the tallest fountain the world.
What would help the Southbank is removing the Main Street viaduct and reworking that entire stretch of street frontage. Any how, that won't happen.
Maybe add a Fudrucker's. That would be a real game changer.
Lol - 'game changer'. For what it's worth - I HATE that phrase. It implies that the 'game' is to maintain the status quo, when the City should always be looking to improve.
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 10:46:30 AM
Lol - 'game changer'. For what it's worth - I HATE that phrase. It implies that the 'game' is to maintain the status quo, when the City should always be looking to improve.
I assume you know I was joking? I, too, hate that term. It's like we need to just throw a bunch of money on a big thing and it will revitalize downtown.
Quote from: acme54321 on June 13, 2018, 10:08:34 AM
FWIW The Southbank Riverwalk seems to stay pretty busy. I persoanlly dont care as much about the flashy lights and music, just make the fountain shoot water like it's supposed to.
Yeah, whenever I'm down there, there are always folks down at Friendship Fountain and Riverwalk. If it's something people already use, we may as well maintain and improve it.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 13, 2018, 11:14:13 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on June 13, 2018, 10:08:34 AM
FWIW The Southbank Riverwalk seems to stay pretty busy. I persoanlly dont care as much about the flashy lights and music, just make the fountain shoot water like it's supposed to.
Yeah, whenever I'm down there, there are always folks down at Friendship Fountain and Riverwalk. If it's something people already use, we may as well maintain and improve it.
Yeah we go down there multiple times a week.
Quote from: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 10:46:30 AM
Lol - 'game changer'. For what it's worth - I HATE that phrase. It implies that the 'game' is to maintain the status quo, when the City should always be looking to improve.
I assume you know I was joking? I, too, hate that term. It's like we need to just throw a bunch of money on a big thing and it will revitalize downtown.
I figured you were joking. Jax doesn't have a problem coming up with "game changer" ideas or plans. We have trouble actually doing them. Just like the current crop of "great ideas are going to be made public soon" comments. Every wheel has to be reinvented every damn time. For once couldn't the next great idea be how to implement one of the existing great ideas already sitting on the shelf - or heck, just do something simple to create some momentum and get something in the Win column. for example, a bike share program could be implemented at a low relative cost in 3 months.
About putting a fountain in the new "Court House Bay" - isn't it supposed to be a marina, or at least have docking around the edges? A big-ol' fountain doesn't seem compatible with docking boats.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 13, 2018, 11:29:20 AM
About putting a fountain in the new "Court House Bay" - isn't it supposed to be a marina, or at least have docking around the edges? A big-ol' fountain doesn't seem compatible with docking boats.
Who would ever seen it anyhow? it is between a parking garage, an abandoned building, and a blank hotel wall. There isn't even green space for the homeless to enjoy it.
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 11:23:53 AM
Quote from: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 10:46:30 AM
Lol - 'game changer'. For what it's worth - I HATE that phrase. It implies that the 'game' is to maintain the status quo, when the City should always be looking to improve.
I assume you know I was joking? I, too, hate that term. It's like we need to just throw a bunch of money on a big thing and it will revitalize downtown.
I figured you were joking. Jax doesn't have a problem coming up with "game changer" ideas or plans. We have trouble actually doing them. Just like the current crop of "great ideas are going to be made public soon" comments. Every wheel has to be reinvented every damn time. For once couldn't the next great idea be how to implement one of the existing great ideas already sitting on the shelf - or heck, just do something simple to create some momentum and get something in the Win column. for example, a bike share program could be implemented at a low relative cost in 3 months.
I would argue we are in the process of doing a lot of these things already, it just doesn't get the love or news coverage it deserves. The Trio, FSCJ's new culinary program, Lavilla redevelopment and infill, UNF and JU presence downtown are all huge wins for the actual core of downtown. While we all argue about the Shipyards, the District, blah blah, there are a ton of great wins already in motion.
The Trio is a good one - thanks for the reminder.
I wish the Times-Union would spend more effort on downtown reporting instead of just repackaging NYT, Washington Post, and AP stories about how much Trump sucks.
Here is the Live Chat transcript from last Friday in the OKC paper. I would kill for something similar here.
https://newsok.com/article/5597463/okc-central-chat-with-steve-lackmeyer
Quote
Tommy Biggs said:
Anything OKC has that Austin is lacking or needs?
Steve Lackmeyer replied:
In all seriousness, hard to believe if I didn't see and hear and observe this directly.... a leadership that supports and embraces urban density. What is happening in downtown Austin is in spite of its leadership!
Sounds like Jax.
Follow the TU reporters on Twitter, they have much better insight with 280 characters than what you read daily in the TU.
Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 03:23:21 PM
The Trio is a good one - thanks for the reminder.
I wish the Times-Union would spend more effort on downtown reporting instead of just repackaging NYT, Washington Post, and AP stories about how much Trump sucks.
1) Check out J Magazine, published by the T-U. Though I don't agree with every individual contribution, it's a really great downtown-centric quarterly.
2) Alternate solution. If Donald Trump wasn't such a horrible human being all the time, the T-U would have to cover something else ;)
3) Remember how spectacular the fountain was for that brief period in 2013 when it was fully restored? A new addition to the fountain itself is being discussed that would make it even more spectacular (if properly maintained).
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on June 02, 2018, 12:15:52 AM
So can we find a way to blame Khan and the Jaguars? I mean it's because of them downtown is in the state it Is!
Well, they do suck up a large portion of the bed tax which is supposed to go to things like Friendship Fountain also.
Quote from: KenFSU on June 18, 2018, 09:59:51 PM
3) Remember how spectacular the fountain was for that brief period in 2013 when it was fully restored? A new addition to the fountain itself is being discussed that would make it even more spectacular (if properly maintained).
"if properly maintained" .....LOL
The fountain was incredible when it was restored. I remember taking out of town guests there and we would marvel at it.
I think all of us know how "properly maintained" any additions to the fountain would be
Quote from: Bativac on June 19, 2018, 11:53:37 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on June 18, 2018, 09:59:51 PM
3) Remember how spectacular the fountain was for that brief period in 2013 when it was fully restored? A new addition to the fountain itself is being discussed that would make it even more spectacular (if properly maintained).
The fountain was incredible when it was restored. I remember taking out of town guests there and we would marvel at it.
Wow. Sounds like quite a night out.
Quote from: Kerry on June 19, 2018, 08:48:23 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on June 02, 2018, 12:15:52 AM
So can we find a way to blame Khan and the Jaguars? I mean it's because of them downtown is in the state it Is!
Well, they do suck up a large portion of the bed tax which is supposed to go to things like Friendship Fountain also.
Sorry but that's incorrect. Of the 6% bed tax in Duval: 2% is dedicated towards capital improvement/maintenance on sports facilities, 2% is dedicated to bond debt repayment for prior sports facilities capital improvements and 2% goes towards tourism-related efforts (something like 3/4 of which funds Visit Jacksonville). Other Florida counties have a dedicated slice of the bed tax's pie going towards parks (those counties like say Walton or Sarasota also don't have 73,000 seat stadiums, 5,000 seat indoor/outdoor amphitheatres and 15,000 seat arenas)... but Duval does not. As the Duval bed tax is constructed (by ordinance), your favourite punching bag Khan is not 'stealing' money from Friendship Fountain.
Thanks for the numbers. I knew that Bed Tax couldn't go to park land but didn't remember the exact breakdown
That said, I wouldn't opposed for a small addition to the Bed Tax to go to park land, but that's another story.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 20, 2018, 07:34:14 AM
Quote from: Kerry on June 19, 2018, 08:48:23 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on June 02, 2018, 12:15:52 AM
So can we find a way to blame Khan and the Jaguars? I mean it's because of them downtown is in the state it Is!
Well, they do suck up a large portion of the bed tax which is supposed to go to things like Friendship Fountain also.
Sorry but that's incorrect. Of the 6% bed tax in Duval: 2% is dedicated towards capital improvement/maintenance on sports facilities, 2% is dedicated to bond debt repayment for prior sports facilities capital improvements and 2% goes towards tourism-related efforts (something like 3/4 of which funds Visit Jacksonville). Other Florida counties have a dedicated slice of the bed tax's pie going towards parks (those counties like say Walton or Sarasota also don't have 73,000 seat stadiums, 5,000 seat indoor/outdoor amphitheatres and 15,000 seat arenas)... but Duval does not. As the Duval bed tax is constructed (by ordinance), your favourite punching bag Khan is not 'stealing' money from Friendship Fountain.
Friendship Fountain IS a tourist attraction. It is why it was built and is identified by the City as a tourist attraction, along with the entire Southbank Riverwalk I might add.
Quote from: Kerry on June 20, 2018, 09:47:19 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on June 20, 2018, 07:34:14 AM
Quote from: Kerry on June 19, 2018, 08:48:23 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on June 02, 2018, 12:15:52 AM
So can we find a way to blame Khan and the Jaguars? I mean it's because of them downtown is in the state it Is!
Well, they do suck up a large portion of the bed tax which is supposed to go to things like Friendship Fountain also.
Sorry but that's incorrect. Of the 6% bed tax in Duval: 2% is dedicated towards capital improvement/maintenance on sports facilities, 2% is dedicated to bond debt repayment for prior sports facilities capital improvements and 2% goes towards tourism-related efforts (something like 3/4 of which funds Visit Jacksonville). Other Florida counties have a dedicated slice of the bed tax's pie going towards parks (those counties like say Walton or Sarasota also don't have 73,000 seat stadiums, 5,000 seat indoor/outdoor amphitheatres and 15,000 seat arenas)... but Duval does not. As the Duval bed tax is constructed (by ordinance), your favourite punching bag Khan is not 'stealing' money from Friendship Fountain.
Friendship Fountain IS a tourist attraction. It is why it was built and is identified by the City as a tourist attraction, along with the entire Southbank Riverwalk I might add.
Your personal opinion be as it may, but both Friendship Fountain and the Southbank Riverwalk are both identified as City parks. As such money for maintenance, capital improvements, and the like are derived from the Parks Department's budget. That budget is primarily funded through the General Fund. The bed tax is not a dedicated funding source for the Parks Department. Bed tax money specifically goes towards Sports Facilities and the Tourist Development Council (and Visit Jacksonville eats up the majority of TDC monies).
That is not my opinion - it is why it was built. When opened in 1965 it was the tallest fountain in the world. Heck, even Visit Jacksonville lists it as an attraction.
From Wikipedia for what it is worth. I would argue the entire "park" is a tourist attraction and eligible for Bed Tax funding.
QuoteThe fountain and Friendship Park was designed by Taylor Hardwick, the Jacksonville architect who also designed the Haydon Burns Library. An area of 14 acres (57,000 m2) of land were donated for the project by the Southside Business Men's Club, an organization dedicated to the improvement of the Southside that was established in 1932.[3][unreliable source?][4] Begun in 1963 and completed at a cost of $1.7 million,[5] the park opened in March 1965. The "world's largest and tallest" fountain at the time, it became a popular tourist attraction.[6]
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/FriendshipFountainParkPC.JPG)
I would agree. (It's a tourist draw) It's original intention was to draw visitors off the interstate to visit.
On that note.....I guess you can call things like JP Small Park, St John's Town Center, and the Airport as Tourist Attractions. Under that argument, about anything that a tourist could conceivably visit could have this money used for it.
I'm confident that's not the spirit of the Bed Tax.
Also, funding can't go to "tourist attractions". It's supposed to go to Tourism-Related effort. These are thinks like Visit Jax, marketing related efforts, ad campaigns, etc. These funds aren't supposed to go to Tourist Attractions.
What are you talking about - St Johns Town Center, the airport, local parks DO get the benefit of the bed tax. What do you think Visit Jacksonville is promoting in their brochures? Since St John's Town Center is a very successful privately owned for-profit operation someone would have a hard time making the case they should get direct funding though.
"tourism-related efforts" seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Anything aimed at increasing tourism. I would even throw in the USS Adams, MOSH, Museum of Modern Art, and Cummer as recipients. Heck, someone could even convince me The Landing should be eligible since it is featured prominently in marketing material by the City and was developed in partnership with the City.
Anyhow - it is just a City ordinance. It's not written in stone by a supernatural being. All it takes is vote of the City Council to change it to whatever the needs are.
Quote from: Steve on June 20, 2018, 10:35:03 AM
On that note.....I guess you can call things like JP Small Park, St John's Town Center, and the Airport as Tourist Attractions. Under that argument, about anything that a tourist could conceivably visit could have this money used for it.
I'm confident that's not the spirit of the Bed Tax.
Correct.
Stadium upkeep and financing aside, the spirit of the bed tax is to create more
overnight visitors to Jacksonville.
If you attend a TDC meeting, the first and ultimate question asked when funds or grants from the bed tax fund are requested is, "How many room nights will this generate for Jacksonville?"
Hence the name, the bed tax is collected from beds, for the purpose of creating more beds.
The hoteliers don't go through all the trouble of collecting and paying the tax for altruistic purposes; they expect to reap the benefits of its use.
Someone pulling off the highway to look at Friendship Fountain or driving in from St. Augustine to shop at the St. Johns Town Center doesn't generate room nights.
That 2% leftover after stadium upkeep and bond repayment is primarily used for 1) marketing efforts to promote overnight visits and 2) for event-specific grants (Jazz Fest, NCAA Track Meet, Warrior Run, etc.) awarded based on guaranteed room nights.
Quote from: Kerry on June 20, 2018, 10:57:51 AM
What are you talking about - St Johns Town Center, the airport, local parks DO get the benefit of the bed tax. What do you think Visit Jacksonville is promoting in their brochures? Since St John's Town Center is a very successful privately owned for-profit operation someone would have a hard time making the case they should get direct funding though.
"tourism-related efforts" seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Anything aimed at increasing tourism. I would even throw in the USS Adams, MOSH, Museum of Modern Art, and Cummer as recipients. Heck, someone could even convince me The Landing should be eligible since it is featured prominently in marketing material by the City and was developed in partnership with the City.
Anyhow - it is just a City ordinance. It's not written in stone by a supernatural being. All it takes is vote of the City Council to change it to whatever the needs are.
You should lobby for it
Quote from: KenFSU on June 20, 2018, 11:07:17 AM
Quote from: Steve on June 20, 2018, 10:35:03 AM
On that note.....I guess you can call things like JP Small Park, St John's Town Center, and the Airport as Tourist Attractions. Under that argument, about anything that a tourist could conceivably visit could have this money used for it.
I'm confident that's not the spirit of the Bed Tax.
Correct.
Stadium upkeep and financing aside, the spirit of the bed tax is to create more overnight visitors to Jacksonville.
If you attend a TDC meeting, the first and ultimate question asked when funds or grants from the bed tax fund are requested is, "How many room nights will this generate for Jacksonville?"
Hence the name, the bed tax is collected from beds, for the purpose of creating more beds.
The hoteliers don't go through all the trouble of collecting and paying the tax for altruistic purposes; they expect to reap the benefits of its use.
Someone pulling off the highway to look at Friendship Fountain or driving in from St. Augustine to shop at the St. Johns Town Center doesn't generate room nights.
That 2% leftover after stadium upkeep and bond repayment is primarily used for 1) marketing efforts to promote overnight visits and 2) for event-specific grants (Jazz Fest, NCAA Track Meet, Warrior Run, etc.) awarded based on guaranteed room nights.
If that is their objective they failed miserably. By creating a vibrant downtown with multiple attractions far more room nights are generated. This City seems stuck on the whole magic bullet game changer attitude. Instead of raising the water level and floating all boats they keep pinning all the hopes to one-off tidal waves. Instead of gearing everything towards peak demand for specific events they should trying raising the baseline.
Regardless - I'm not saying that the Bed Tax money shouldn't go towards parks. I'm just saying it doesn't legally - and that was set long before anyone in Jacksonville had heard of Shad Khan or Lenny Curry for that matter.
I wouldn't be in favor of JUST expanding what the money can be used for - it's the equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck and then taking on a car payment. But....I'd be okay raising it to say 8% and allowing the money to be used for Urban Public Spaces. A 2% change won't impact people's decision to come here but it would be a nice benefit for us.
This thread only raises my frustration level with the City. Looking around at the fruit of all the City's labor I come back to the same inescapable conclusion - what a monumental waste of money, time, and resources. We could have achieved these results with almost no effort or expense.
The world's "largest" videoboards at the time. It never became a popular tourist attraction.
Jacksonville got into the tourism game late. From the 1920s onward, Jacksonville wanted to attract industry not tourists. We got the pulp mills, the fertilizer plants, chemical plants, shipyards, and everything else that repelled tourists. It's going to be difficult to turn this ship around. We are always going to be that big town people pass through to get to the "real" Florida. Meanwhile, we are left to clean up the mess all of these industrial plants left behind. We need to clean up and repair what we have. Improve our schools, get real with crime, and the growth will come. We have a lot to offer, we just don't have the leadership to guide us.
Quote from: Papa33 on June 20, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
The world's "largest" videoboards at the time. It never became a popular tourist attraction.
No, but it got a good amount of play on national television and it occasionally still gets mentioned during Jags game broadcasts. A lot of people are moving to Jacksonville, and it is becoming a more well known city in part because of things like the video boards. When you add those boards and the new practice field/amphitheater together, shots of the stadium look way more impressive than they did previously. It no longer looks like the Jags play in an oversized college bowl.
Quote from: Papa33 on June 20, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
The world's "largest" videoboards at the time. It never became a popular tourist attraction.
I'm guessing you're not including the thousands to tens of thousands of 'tourists' who come to the city to watch a football game 12+ times a year?
Quote from: Papa33 on June 20, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
The world's "largest" videoboards at the time. It never became a popular tourist attraction.
To be fair though, they can be seen from the interstate.
Quote from: Kerry on June 20, 2018, 01:49:33 PM
Quote from: Papa33 on June 20, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
The world's "largest" videoboards at the time. It never became a popular tourist attraction.
To be fair though, they can be seen from the interstate.
wow, at first I thought "no way, they can be seen from the EXPRESSWAYS at best" but nope! you can see 'em clear across the river from I-95 on the Overland Bridge. Pretty impressive, didn't even realize that.
(still, not sure I've ever heard anybody say "oh yeah let's go watch a Jags game, their jumbotrons are SO BIG!" so I kinda question their real draw by themselves, though I do concede that the screens in conjunction with the other stadium improvements are working together to draw more people to the Stadium District)
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 20, 2018, 01:26:31 PM
Jacksonville got into the tourism game late. From the 1920s onward, Jacksonville wanted to attract industry not tourists. We got the pulp mills, the fertilizer plants, chemical plants, shipyards, and everything else that repelled tourists. It's going to be difficult to turn this ship around. We are always going to be that big town people pass through to get to the "real" Florida. Meanwhile, we are left to clean up the mess all of these industrial plants left behind. We need to clean up and repair what we have. Improve our schools, get real with crime, and the growth will come. We have a lot to offer, we just don't have the leadership to guide us.
Sounds like Seattle, Portland, New Orleans, Savannah and Charleston. All old industrial cities with historic industry similar to that of Jax's that have had success. Yes, we have our challenges but they certainly aren't unique and can be overcome by taking advantage of the pros and cons of tried and true redevelopment strategies.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2018, 02:10:20 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 20, 2018, 01:26:31 PM
Jacksonville got into the tourism game late. From the 1920s onward, Jacksonville wanted to attract industry not tourists. We got the pulp mills, the fertilizer plants, chemical plants, shipyards, and everything else that repelled tourists. It's going to be difficult to turn this ship around. We are always going to be that big town people pass through to get to the "real" Florida. Meanwhile, we are left to clean up the mess all of these industrial plants left behind. We need to clean up and repair what we have. Improve our schools, get real with crime, and the growth will come. We have a lot to offer, we just don't have the leadership to guide us.
Sounds like Seattle, Portland, New Orleans, Savannah and Charleston. All old industrial cities with historic industry similar to that of Jax's that have had success. Yes, we have our challenges but they certainly aren't unique and can be overcome by taking advantage of the pros and cons of tried and true redevelopment strategies.
Great, any idea when we will start?
Quote from: jax_hwy_engineer on June 20, 2018, 02:09:09 PM
"oh yeah let's go watch a Jags game, their jumbotrons are SO BIG!"
That's what she said.
Quote from: Adam White on June 20, 2018, 05:05:49 AM
Quote from: Bativac on June 19, 2018, 11:53:37 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on June 18, 2018, 09:59:51 PM
3) Remember how spectacular the fountain was for that brief period in 2013 when it was fully restored? A new addition to the fountain itself is being discussed that would make it even more spectacular (if properly maintained).
The fountain was incredible when it was restored. I remember taking out of town guests there and we would marvel at it.
Wow. Sounds like quite a night out.
Yeah. That's what there was for fun in Jax... that and breweries! That's part of why we finally left.
Quote from: Papa33 on June 20, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
The world's "largest" videoboards at the time. It never became a popular tourist attraction.
Come on now, this is just patently absurd.
Sports tourism is
huge for Jacksonville.
In 2018 alone, tens of thousands, if not over 100 thousand, tourists came to Everbank Field from places like Gainesville, Athens, Notre Dame, Annapolis, Louisville, Mississippi, London, and 11 major NFL markets and most of them, you know,
spent the night.In fact, I just came back from a Visit Florida lunch at the Omni, and the CEO and CMO of Visit Florida led their presentation by accurately distilling the entire tourism machine into one, four-word mission statement: "Put heads in beds."
Suggesting that keeping our stadium up to date resulted in the facility "never becoming a tourist attraction" literally disregards 100 years of our city's history.
Does Florida State-Boise State open the 2019 college football season in Jacksonville if our stadium still looked like it did in 2012? Absolutely not.
Quote from: KenFSU on June 20, 2018, 03:50:57 PM
Does Florida State-Boise State open the 2019 college football season in Jacksonville if our stadium still looked like it did in 2012? Absolutely not.
They might. In 2007 they played a neutral site game against Alabama in Jax.
http://seminoles.com/gator-bowl-association-announces-sell-out-of-river-city-showdown/
Quote"It was important, from my perspective, that our Alumni and fan base be able to share a historic moment and memory as a record crowd gathers in Jacksonville for this neutral site game between the Seminoles and the Crimson Tide", said Dave Hart, Director of Athletics at Florida State. "Having that come to fruition only adds to the excitement surrounding this game between two of college football's most decorated programs", Hart added.
Quote from: Kerry on June 20, 2018, 04:06:37 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on June 20, 2018, 03:50:57 PM
Does Florida State-Boise State open the 2019 college football season in Jacksonville if our stadium still looked like it did in 2012? Absolutely not.
They might. In 2007 they played a neutral site game against Alabama in Jax.
http://seminoles.com/gator-bowl-association-announces-sell-out-of-river-city-showdown/
Quote"It was important, from my perspective, that our Alumni and fan base be able to share a historic moment and memory as a record crowd gathers in Jacksonville for this neutral site game between the Seminoles and the Crimson Tide", said Dave Hart, Director of Athletics at Florida State. "Having that come to fruition only adds to the excitement surrounding this game between two of college football's most decorated programs", Hart added.
Much different atmosphere in 2007. Right or Wrong, College Football money has grown dramatically in 11 years. What teams would want from a payout in 2007 is far different today. While the Scoreboards aren't something you can charge more for, you definitely can for the pool cabanas, club seats, etc. All of that goes into the economics of College Football.
(On a personal note, I think the economics in College Football are FAR more ridiculous than the NFL, or any other sport for that matter. But, the point remains)
Quote from: Kerry on June 20, 2018, 04:06:37 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on June 20, 2018, 03:50:57 PM
Does Florida State-Boise State open the 2019 college football season in Jacksonville if our stadium still looked like it did in 2012? Absolutely not.
They might. In 2007 they played a neutral site game against Alabama in Jax.
... which was signed in 2005 as a result of the $40 million in stadium renovations carried out for Super Bowl XXXIX that year.
You need first-class facilities to draw first-class events.
Quote from: KenFSU on June 20, 2018, 03:50:57 PM
Quote from: Papa33 on June 20, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
The world's "largest" videoboards at the time. It never became a popular tourist attraction.
Come on now, this is just patently absurd.
Sports tourism is huge for Jacksonville.
In 2018 alone, tens of thousands, if not over 100 thousand, tourists came to Everbank Field from places like Gainesville, Athens, Notre Dame, Annapolis, Louisville, Mississippi, London, and 11 major NFL markets and most of them, you know, spent the night.
In fact, I just came back from a Visit Florida lunch at the Omni, and the CEO and CMO of Visit Florida led their presentation by accurately distilling the entire tourism machine into one, four-word mission statement: "Put heads in beds."
Suggesting that keeping our stadium up to date resulted in the facility "never becoming a tourist attraction" literally disregards 100 years of our city's history.
Does Florida State-Boise State open the 2019 college football season in Jacksonville if our stadium still looked like it did in 2012? Absolutely not.
Jacksonville is quickly becoming a "medical tourist" town. Unbelievable amount of people coming here for medical procedures.
True. Proton therapy alone brings people from all over. They are adding on to the UF Health proton therapy center due to demand.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2018, 02:10:20 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 20, 2018, 01:26:31 PM
Jacksonville got into the tourism game late. From the 1920s onward, Jacksonville wanted to attract industry not tourists. We got the pulp mills, the fertilizer plants, chemical plants, shipyards, and everything else that repelled tourists. It's going to be difficult to turn this ship around. We are always going to be that big town people pass through to get to the "real" Florida. Meanwhile, we are left to clean up the mess all of these industrial plants left behind. We need to clean up and repair what we have. Improve our schools, get real with crime, and the growth will come. We have a lot to offer, we just don't have the leadership to guide us.
Sounds like Seattle, Portland, New Orleans, Savannah and Charleston. All old industrial cities with historic industry similar to that of Jax's that have had success. Yes, we have our challenges but they certainly aren't unique and can be overcome by taking advantage of the pros and cons of tried and true redevelopment strategies.
As I said in my last post I spend lots of tine in Savannah. Savannah is 100% a tourist town. And guess what, except for 2-3 DT hotels being built there is little if any other development in the area. Maybe Pooler, but it is a mini River City Marketplace. Let face it, we will not be a typical Florida tourist town. We don't attract people to our beaches in the winter like Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, WPB. We can be a medical tourist town. Or a kayak, wildlife (as in Talbot Island) type town. Lets grow Jax based on it's strengths. Business environment, low taxes, family oriented, etc.
Did you spend lots of time in Savannah in the 1980s? What you see now is the hard work of revitalization efforts that span more than 30 years now. Both Savannah and Charleston were run down industrial Southern port cities back then. They just hadn't blown everything up like we do. But make no doubt about it, stuff like a port, military, paper mills, forest products, etc. were/are just as important to their economies as it is our's. In other words, even today, they aren't 100% tourist towns.
I do agree that we should grow on our strengths. Moreso than taxes, I'd tell you history, culture and sense of place are true unique strentghs here that we totally down play and drop the ball on. Those are the strengths the list of cities I mentioned took advantage of to turn their fortunes around.
While tourism is pretty big in Savannah, it has a lot more going for it than that. They have 3 good sized universities (Savannah State, Georgia Southern - Armstrong, and SCAD), 5th largest container port in the US (behind LA, Long Beach, NY/NJ, and Seattle/Tacoma), 3 large military bases (Hunter Army Airfield, Fort Stewart, and Parris Island Marine Corp), and is a pretty active movie location (just watched the Adam Sandler/David Spade movie - The Do Over, which was filmed in Savannah). Also, Hilton Head Island is just across the river.
Anyhow, back to our 40 year struggle to get our fountain to work.
Quote from: Kerry on June 21, 2018, 09:00:31 AM
While tourism is pretty big in Savannah, it has a lot more going for it than that. They have 3 good sized universities (Savannah State, Georgia Southern - Armstrong, and SCAD), 5th largest container port in the US (behind LA, Long Beach, NY/NJ, and Seattle/Tacoma), 3 large military bases (Hunter Army Airfield, Fort Stewart, and Parris Island Marine Corp), and is a pretty active movie location (just watched the Adam Sandler/David Spade movie - The Do Over, which was filmed in Savannah). Also, Hilton Head Island is just across the river.
Anyhow, back to our 40 year struggle to get our fountain to work.
So back to the fountain. How many posters at MJ would pay 10% more in local taxes to properly maintain our parks and other public assets, further develop and promote DT, install a real fixed based transit system such as a street car, etc. I would and I am retiring this year. Although not a believer of big federal spending, I am much more in favor of local taxation where we can better control what the money is used for. Of course the issue always becomes "where did the money go" as politics are always in play.
Quote from: jaxjags on June 21, 2018, 04:30:39 PM
Although not a believer of big federal spending, I am much more in favor of local taxation where we can better control what the money is used for. Of course the issue always becomes "where did the money go" as politics are always in play.
Is that why you left "BBQ sauce factory" off your list?
Quote from: jaxjags on June 21, 2018, 04:30:39 PM
So back to the fountain. How many posters at MJ would pay 10% more in local taxes to properly maintain our parks and other public assets, further develop and promote DT, install a real fixed based transit system such as a street car, etc. I would and I am retiring this year. Although not a believer of big federal spending, I am much more in favor of local taxation where we can better control what the money is used for. Of course the issue always becomes "where did the money go" as politics are always in play.
It doesn't seem to be a matter of funding. If Jax was operating at some level of efficiency then I might be on board, or even if was similar to how OKC does the MAPS taxes, but there is a serious trust issue and honestly, I don't think the way our city government is structured is even compatible with urban growth. We need to switch to a City Manager government and eliminate at least half the council seats. Even with that there is a widespread cultural opposition to walkable urbanism in Jax.
Maybe the downtown neighborhoods and Riverside should secede from Jax and form our own City.
Really encouraging to see that the City Council recognizes the maintenance issue and lists increasing and improving park maintenance as a top priority in the coming year.
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180622/what-should-jacksonville-be-like-in-five-years-city-council-weighs-in
Completing the Emerald Necklace is a top three-year priority for the Council.
Holy crap - it is worse than I thought, and I thought it was pretty bad. That article illustrates EVERYTHING that is wrong with Jax and the City Council. They had a meeting to discuss ideas for a meeting that will maybe take place every year to discuss a plan that they want to put togther for a future implementation. The future is NOW!!!!! Do something NOW!!! You don't need a damn plan, you need action. Pick something, anything. Hell, pick something simple like make sure crosswalk lines line up with the curb cut (see Water St and Jefferson).
The only thing useable out of the whole article was this.
Quote"The goal really was to look at big items that we can get our arms around, and certainly recognizing, too, that this is a mayor-led form of government, "Bowman said.
The want to put a plan together? Put a plan together to move to a City Manager government. We don't keep a Mayor long enough to implement anything - just sweep up left over crumbs from previous admins.
A city is just a means to a way of life. Jax needs to decide how it wants to live and then take it from there. It can't be all things to all people. You either build for sprawl or for walkable urbanism - you can't do both.
Quote from: Kerry on June 23, 2018, 11:52:40 AM
Holy crap - it is worse than I thought, and I thought it was pretty bad. That article illustrates EVERYTHING that is wrong with Jax and the City Council. They had a meeting to discuss ideas for a meeting that will maybe take place every year to discuss a plan that they want to put togther for a future implementation. The future is NOW!!!!! Do something NOW!!! You don't need a damn plan, you need action. Pick something, anything. Hell, pick something simple like make sure crosswalk lines line up with the curb cut (see Water St and Jefferson).
The only thing useable out of the whole article was this.
Quote"The goal really was to look at big items that we can get our arms around, and certainly recognizing, too, that this is a mayor-led form of government, "Bowman said.
The want to put a plan together? Put a plan together to move to a City Manager government. We don't keep a Mayor long enough to implement anything - just sweep up left over crumbs from previous admins.
A city is just a means to a way of life. Jax needs to decide how it wants to live and then take it from there. It can't be all things to all people. You either build for sprawl or for walkable urbanism - you can't do both.
The article wasn't terribly specific, but here's what I saw:
For the coming year, the top priorities are to inventory all the city's crime-fighting programs and set benchmarks for success, increase park maintenance, devise a comprehensive litter-control plan, develop downtown and enhance its public spaces, update the zoning code and bring redevelopment to Mayport.
Over the next three years, council members want to ramp up spending on public works, launch a "Jacksonville Journey 3.0" to mix prevention with enforcement for fighting crime, make downtown more lively, reduce homelessness and bring more activity to waterfront sites across the city.
For the five-year period, the goal of cutting violent crime was followed by making Jacksonville a "clean and well-maintained city" that also is prepared to withstand natural disasters like hurricanes. Phasing out septic tanks also landed on that list.
While I don't know that I agree with everything on the list, I can't say I think it's an awful list. Better maintenance is on all three lists, which I consider a positive as I think it's one of the largest issues in the city today. There were some ideas that I don't think should be there (the shade over the stadium I think is a good concept, but this needs to be a Jaguars-led initiative, as for the non-Jaguar marquee events at the stadium (Fl-Ga, Gator Bowl, etc.), the weather isn't brutally hot or the event is at night.
This isn't a bad exercise for a legislative body to do, frankly.
I definitely don't want to see Jacksonville move to a City Manager style government. Take a look at this list:
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/quadrennial/downloads/pdf/tables/Forms-of-Government.pdf
Of the big cities in America, only 8 of the top 25 use Council-Manager (Which is effectively City Manager). Interestingly, 4 of those 8 are in Texas.
My personal feeling is Jacksonville's problem isn't the government's structure. You can make a much better argument about Consolidation hurting the Urban Core (which I do feel to a point but think the positives outweigh the negatives) than the form of government being a problem.
For example, the US government worked pretty well in the 1990's, but isn't working well at all today. I don't know too many people that want to blow up the structure of the federal government. It's about the people.
Quote from: jaxjags on June 21, 2018, 04:30:39 PM
So back to the fountain. How many posters at MJ would pay 10% more in local taxes to properly maintain our parks and other public assets, further develop and promote DT, install a real fixed based transit system such as a street car, etc. I would and I am retiring this year. Although not a believer of big federal spending, I am much more in favor of local taxation where we can better control what the money is used for. Of course the issue always becomes "where did the money go" as politics are always in play.
I'd pay 25% more in local taxes for those things. I would not, however, want people in lower income brackets to have to pay for it. I'm not sure there's a good way to do that though.
Quote from: remc86007 on June 25, 2018, 10:19:17 AM
Quote from: jaxjags on June 21, 2018, 04:30:39 PM
So back to the fountain. How many posters at MJ would pay 10% more in local taxes to properly maintain our parks and other public assets, further develop and promote DT, install a real fixed based transit system such as a street car, etc. I would and I am retiring this year. Although not a believer of big federal spending, I am much more in favor of local taxation where we can better control what the money is used for. Of course the issue always becomes "where did the money go" as politics are always in play.
I'd pay 25% more in local taxes for those things. I would not, however, want people in lower income brackets to have to pay for it. I'm not sure there's a good way to do that though.
For just better maintenance? It's probably not that much at all to get things into much better shape. Even simple things like mowing the lawns at parks more often would be amazing.
I'm putting aside things like what's going on in front of the old courthouse. Let's pick up trash better. Let's keep vegetation living (meaning either water more or select better plants that can tolerate a dry spell). Let's fix broken stuff.
We do that it will go a long way.
I wonder how many of the Mayor-Council cities listed in Steve's link are also term-limited for the Mayor's office?
I think that is a BIG problem for JAX. Take 2 years to learn the ropes, Spend 1 year actually doing something. Spend 1 year running for re-election. Spend 1 year, maybe 2 actually doing something. Spend 1-2 years as a lame duck. It also doesn't help that the new Mayor seems to ignore the possibility of building on what the last one had already started.
Delaney got the ball rolling DT and then Peyton, with an assist from a bad economy, put the kibosh on that. Delaney expanded the Park/Conservation inventory exponentially, then Peyton dropped the ball to make the parks truly great.
Brown didn't build on Peyton's accomplishments, because there were none. Curry didn't build on Brown's accomplishments because he ran against his record.
That is a lot of ramping up/ learning curve/ starting over going on.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 25, 2018, 12:02:14 PM
I wonder how many of the Mayor-Council cities listed in Steve's link are also term-limited for the Mayor's office?
I think that is a BIG problem for JAX. Take 2 years to learn the ropes, Spend 1 year actually doing something. Spend 1 year running for re-election. Spend 1 year, maybe 2 actually doing something. Spend 1-2 years as a lame duck. It also doesn't help that the new Mayor seems to ignore the possibility of building on what the last one had already started.
Delaney got the ball rolling DT and then Peyton, with an assist from a bad economy, put the kibosh on that. Delaney expanded the Park/Conservation inventory exponentially, then Peyton dropped the ball to make the parks truly great.
Brown didn't build on Peyton's accomplishments, because there were none. Curry didn't build on Brown's accomplishments because he ran against his record.
That is a lot of ramping up/ learning curve/ starting over going on.
It's a fair point, but here's one: Don't dump the entire government when you come into office!! Classic example:
In COJ Appointed Employment you have two types:
- Appointed Officials: These are folks like Sam Mousa, Mike Weinstein, etc. These go down to the Division Chief level. For example, the COJ's CIO is an Appointed official. These people serve at the pleasure of the Mayor, are appointed by City Council, and can be dumped at any time.
- Appointed Employee: These are the next level down. They aren't union, can be dumped at any time officially, but aren't appointed by the mayor. Think of these folks like your middle managers. These are the people that REALLY know what's going on day to day in city government. Generally, these people aren't considered political appointees.
Peyton broke an unwritten rule and dumped many of these people when he came into office. There are many reasons why things fell apart under Peyton, but this was a quiet one.
Long story short - If you don't dump these people, the learning curve shouldn't be THAT great.
Everyone here stresses too much on what the city needs to do. The city is gonna be great its just gonna take time. There is serious money in the city and there are serious movers and shakers here. Jacksonville is on its way just be patient.
And your reason for this optimism is what? I've seen to many cities progressing while Jax is crawling (was going to say running but that implied an attemt to move rapidly) in circles. For heavens sake, this is a thread about the deteriorating iconic signature feature of Jacksonville. And if you say it isn't iconic or signature then you only prove the point about our sad state of affairs.
Quote from: Steve on June 25, 2018, 09:31:27 AM
Quote
The want to put a plan together? Put a plan together to move to a City Manager government. We don't keep a Mayor long enough to implement anything - just sweep up left over crumbs from previous admins.
The article wasn't terribly specific, but here's what I saw:
For the coming year, the top priorities are to inventory all the city's crime-fighting programs and set benchmarks for success, increase park maintenance, devise a comprehensive litter-control plan, develop downtown and enhance its public spaces, update the zoning code and bring redevelopment to Mayport.
Over the next three years, council members want to ramp up spending on public works, launch a "Jacksonville Journey 3.0" to mix prevention with enforcement for fighting crime, make downtown more lively, reduce homelessness and bring more activity to waterfront sites across the city.
For the five-year period, the goal of cutting violent crime was followed by making Jacksonville a "clean and well-maintained city" that also is prepared to withstand natural disasters like hurricanes. Phasing out septic tanks also landed on that list.
While I don't know that I agree with everything on the list, I can't say I think it's an awful list. Better maintenance is on all three lists, which I consider a positive as I think it's one of the largest issues in the city today. There were some ideas that I don't think should be there (the shade over the stadium I think is a good concept, but this needs to be a Jaguars-led initiative, as for the non-Jaguar marquee events at the stadium (Fl-Ga, Gator Bowl, etc.), the weather isn't brutally hot or the event is at night.
This isn't a bad exercise for a legislative body to do, frankly.
I definitely don't want to see Jacksonville move to a City Manager style government. Take a look at this list:
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/quadrennial/downloads/pdf/tables/Forms-of-Government.pdf
Of the big cities in America, only 8 of the top 25 use Council-Manager (Which is effectively City Manager). Interestingly, 4 of those 8 are in Texas.
I bolded your comment for emphasis - it might not be a bad thing for the Council to do but it sure as heck shouldn't be news worthy. It begs the question, if this is revolutionary for the council what have they been doing all this time? I kind of assume this was standard operating procedure.
The City Manager type of government wasn't even invented until the early 1900's and didn't gain popularity until the 1950's. Corruption in the cities on that list with Strong Mayor is off the chart so not sure I would use them as good model.
Quote from: JaGoaT on June 25, 2018, 05:49:38 PM
Everyone here stresses too much on what the city needs to do. The city is gonna be great its just gonna take time. There is serious money in the city and there are serious movers and shakers here. Jacksonville is on its way just be patient.
I-10? Is that you?
Quote from: Kerry on June 25, 2018, 09:55:45 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 25, 2018, 09:31:27 AM
Quote
The want to put a plan together? Put a plan together to move to a City Manager government. We don't keep a Mayor long enough to implement anything - just sweep up left over crumbs from previous admins.
The article wasn't terribly specific, but here's what I saw:
For the coming year, the top priorities are to inventory all the city's crime-fighting programs and set benchmarks for success, increase park maintenance, devise a comprehensive litter-control plan, develop downtown and enhance its public spaces, update the zoning code and bring redevelopment to Mayport.
Over the next three years, council members want to ramp up spending on public works, launch a "Jacksonville Journey 3.0" to mix prevention with enforcement for fighting crime, make downtown more lively, reduce homelessness and bring more activity to waterfront sites across the city.
For the five-year period, the goal of cutting violent crime was followed by making Jacksonville a "clean and well-maintained city" that also is prepared to withstand natural disasters like hurricanes. Phasing out septic tanks also landed on that list.
While I don't know that I agree with everything on the list, I can't say I think it's an awful list. Better maintenance is on all three lists, which I consider a positive as I think it's one of the largest issues in the city today. There were some ideas that I don't think should be there (the shade over the stadium I think is a good concept, but this needs to be a Jaguars-led initiative, as for the non-Jaguar marquee events at the stadium (Fl-Ga, Gator Bowl, etc.), the weather isn't brutally hot or the event is at night.
This isn't a bad exercise for a legislative body to do, frankly.
I definitely don't want to see Jacksonville move to a City Manager style government. Take a look at this list:
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/quadrennial/downloads/pdf/tables/Forms-of-Government.pdf
Of the big cities in America, only 8 of the top 25 use Council-Manager (Which is effectively City Manager). Interestingly, 4 of those 8 are in Texas.
I bolded your comment for emphasis - it might not be a bad thing for the Council to do but it sure as heck shouldn't be news worthy. It begs the question, if this is revolutionary for the council what have they been doing all this time? I kind of assume this was standard operating procedure.
The City Manager type of government wasn't even invented until the early 1900's and didn't gain popularity until the 1950's. Corruption in the cities on that list with Strong Mayor is off the chart so not sure I would use them as good model.
So is that your takeaway? That the Council should have been doing this the entire time and it shouldn't be newsworthy? If so then perhaps you're right....but again, I can't fault in doing it. This is why folks think you'd bitch about a winning lottery ticket and the length of the drive to Tallahassee to cash it. Perhaps you're correct that this shows fault in previous city council leadership. Whether or not the previous leadership was good or not is irrelevant in 2 days as Bowman is installed as President. How about be happy that they are doing it? I think we can agree that planning means nothing unless it's followed by good action.
In terms of the form of government, I guess we can agree to disagree. I believe that if people are corrupt, they will figure out a way to be corrupt in any form of government. Plus, I don't think that in Jacksonville rampant corruption hasn't been our recent downfall (let's be honest, EVERY government has some actions like unqualified appointees here and there). And yes, if Council Members Brown and Brown are found guilty, then that's really bad (and incredibly stupid). It definitely was a factor pre-consolidation. I feel that weak leadership has been the largest issue, and that can happen in any form of government.
Quote from: JaGoaT on June 25, 2018, 05:49:38 PM
Everyone here stresses too much on what the city needs to do. The city is gonna be great its just gonna take time. There is serious money in the city and there are serious movers and shakers here. Jacksonville is on its way just be patient.
My only counter is that the time to be patient was five or six years ago. I tend to think that we're at a point where we need to put our foot on the gas in the next 12-18 months, at least in terms of doing our part as a city to make the right projects happen. Not necessarily throwing subsidies at anything that moves, but by making swift decisions and not becoming a regulatory roadblock. The best predictive indicators are starting to point toward an impending recession up in the distance.
My take away from the article was, it doesn't matter what plan or great ideas they come up with - they don't have the power to do anything about it.
Quote from: KenFSU on June 26, 2018, 12:41:15 PM
Quote from: JaGoaT on June 25, 2018, 05:49:38 PM
Everyone here stresses too much on what the city needs to do. The city is gonna be great its just gonna take time. There is serious money in the city and there are serious movers and shakers here. Jacksonville is on its way just be patient.
My only counter is that the time to be patient was five or six years ago. I tend to think that we're at a point where we need to put our foot on the gas in the next 12-18 months, at least in terms of doing our part as a city to make the right projects happen. Not necessarily throwing subsidies at anything that moves, but by making swift decisions and not becoming a regulatory roadblock. The best predictive indicators are starting to point toward an impending recession up in the distance.
The Laura St Trio is going to be done in 18 months + a decent garage, Fscj housing will be open by the end of the summer, hotel indigo is going through the process, out of town investors just bought 120 e Forsyth to put in a high end speakeasy, and khan is cooking up plans for Lot J. Plus the Southbank has lots of potential projects in various initial stages. Sure Downtown jax is late to the party but we are heading in the right direction. I guess a lot of people think there will be some sort of real estate bubble ala 2008 and we have missed the boat but I don't see that happening.
Having the trio, garage, fscj housing, etc done next year will be great. It's awesome that those are locked in... but... My biggest fear is that downtown is about to get stuck in the same predicament it did during the last recession. Development started waaaay too late. Orlando started their redevelopment right as the economy went bullish. It aggressively lured developers to build housing which fueled retail, bar/restaurant and entertainment growth. Since 2014 there have been 13 major resdential developments downtown. About a 50/50 mix of high and midrise / purely residential and mixed use. The economy while strong right now is in very turbulent times. With tariffs as Trump's new favorite toy to toss around building supplies are getting WAAAAY more expensive by the day. I fear that some of the projects in their early development phases may never see the light of day in Jacksonville. Just like the last time the Economy took a nosedive.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on June 26, 2018, 10:48:34 PM
Having the trio, garage, fscj housing, etc done next year will be great. It's awesome that those are locked in... but... My biggest fear is that downtown is about to get stuck in the same predicament it did during the last recession. Development started waaaay too late. Orlando started their redevelopment right as the economy went bullish. It aggressively lured developers to build housing which fueled retail, bar/restaurant and entertainment growth. Since 2014 there have been 13 major resdential developments downtown. About a 50/50 mix of high and midrise / purely residential and mixed use. The economy while strong right now is in very turbulent times. With tariffs as Trump's new favorite toy to toss around building supplies are getting WAAAAY more expensive by the day. I fear that some of the projects in their early development phases may never see the light of day in Jacksonville. Just like the last time the Economy took a nosedive.
I disagree, we aren't too late we are just late to the party. Jacksonville is not a first tier city for big out of town developers and our local developers are too conservative to invest in downtown, thus the slow pace. Downtown has lots of available space/empty building stock and a healthy city budget/leadership eager for public/private partnerships. Out of town Developers are searching for deals and with our robust economy we will start seeing more action as other cities become too expensive. I wouldn't buy into the media's fear mongering predicting some sort of economic collapse. The housing bubble in 2008 which halted so much downtown momentum isn't going to repeat itself and if our economy is truly in danger of collapse a lack of cranes in downtown jax will be the least of all of our worries:
Okay - so Jax isn't a first-tier city for developers, our developers are too conservative, insert other excuse here...how is it that over the last 20 years every other metro, town, city, and hamlet in America has seen significant reurbanization - and by significant I mean development measured in billions of dollars. Meanwhile back at the ranch, this is a thread about not being able to keep our signature downtown iconic fountain in working condition for 3 consecutive years.
QuoteI guess a lot of people think there will be some sort of real estate bubble ala 2008 and we have missed the boat but I don't see that happening.
Recessions haven't been outlawed. We are already overdue for a recession and market correction. Many cities that were building like crazy the last few years are already seeing fewer projects coming through.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 27, 2018, 09:52:13 AM
QuoteI guess a lot of people think there will be some sort of real estate bubble ala 2008 and we have missed the boat but I don't see that happening.
Recessions haven't been outlawed. We are already overdue for a recession and market correction. Many cities that were building like crazy the last few years are already seeing fewer projects coming through.
Offcourse recessions haven't been outlawed, but I don't see any factors suggesting one is coming or that we are "overdue" for one. If anything signs point to the opposite, signs such as the fed reserve raising their interest rate which is done when their is confidence in the economy. Many cities are still building, we get reminded by many posters all the time and we even have an entire thread devoted to it. I can't comment on pace but I've driven through Orlando and Tampa recently and they all still have several active cranes downtown.
Projects can be a little tougher here, which is a byproduct of a crazy low cost of living here. Right now you don't see much in the way of true high-rise construction because they can't then charge the rents (or sell the units) to recoup the cost of construction of a high-rise. Over time that might change, but that's going to be a challenge in the immediate future.
Personally, if we saw more mid-rise/reuse projects, I'm fine with it.
But....I don't think we're TOO late to the party. Just a little more than fashionably late.
Quote from: jagsonville on June 27, 2018, 10:16:02 AMI don't see any factors suggesting one is coming or that we are "overdue" for one. If anything signs point to the opposite.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/business/what-is-yield-curve-recession-prediction.html
P.S. I don't see it mentioned in the Times-Union article, but I've heard that the mayor's new budget also has $2.5 million allocated to Friendship Fountain and the surrounding park, in addition to what's been previously budgeted ($1 million+, I believe).
Quote from: KenFSU on June 27, 2018, 11:08:40 AM
P.S. I don't see it mentioned in the Times-Union article, but I've heard that the mayor's new budget also has $2.5 million allocated to Friendship Fountain and the surrounding park, in addition to what's been previously budgeted ($1 million+, I believe).
If true that's good news. May not be mentioned in the T-U article because the T-U focused on Capital and I would think this would be maintenance.
Though....I'd think cleaning up the cemeteries would be maintenance too so maybe I'm wrong.
Quote from: Steve on June 27, 2018, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on June 27, 2018, 11:08:40 AM
P.S. I don't see it mentioned in the Times-Union article, but I've heard that the mayor's new budget also has $2.5 million allocated to Friendship Fountain and the surrounding park, in addition to what's been previously budgeted ($1 million+, I believe).
If true that's good news. May not be mentioned in the T-U article because the T-U focused on Capital and I would think this would be maintenance.
Though....I'd think cleaning up the cemeteries would be maintenance too so maybe I'm wrong.
Definitely capital improvement.
Was told an additional $1.5 million for the fountain, plus another $1 million for the park.
Quotethe fed reserve raising their interest rate which is done when their is confidence in the economy.
Just as they did in 2006, 2007.....
Having lots of cranes is not the future. The pipeline of new projects for submission to gov't boards is what the world will look like in the next 12-24 months.
We are in the longest lasting expansion in history, or very close to it.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 27, 2018, 11:36:01 AM
Quotethe fed reserve raising their interest rate which is done when their is confidence in the economy.
Just as they did in 2006, 2007.....
Having lots of cranes is not the future. The pipeline of new projects for submission to gov't boards is what the world will look like in the next 12-24 months.
We are in the longest lasting expansion in history, or very close to it.
They only increased in 2006 and started gradually decreasing afterwards. They did it in an unsuccessful attempt to cool the housing market which was about bubble where as now they are doing it to stave off inflation and the need for cheap government money isn't necessary for borrowers anymore due to the strong economy.
How will a Trade War affect these economic projections?
If the nation did have a recession that shut down reurbanization in cities across the country, could you tell it in Jax? Answer, No. And that is the problem.
The difference between 2 year and 10 year bond yields is dropping (currently about 0.3). If that turns negative it has correctly predicted the last 4 recessions. The negative yield curve usually occurs roughly 12 - 18 months before the recession starts, so we may have about 2 good years left. :-\
Quote from: Kerry on June 27, 2018, 05:36:07 PM
If the nation did have a recession that shut down reurbanization in cities across the country, could you tell it in Jax? Answer, No. And that is the problem.
Were you here in 2006-2008? You could not be more wrong about that. I can literally name 20 projects downtown that got shelved/killed during that time.
You make it sound like downtown is going through a Zombie Apocalypse. While I'd like there to be more, it's not like nothing is happening:
- Barnett is under construction right now
- Laura Trio Garage is about to break ground (I know, not exciting)
- Laura Trio is coming up
- Hotel Indigo is very likely to happen (just received final approval)
- Vestcor is doing three housing projects (1 just completed, 1 under construction, 1 in approval state)
- Brooklyn along Riverside Avenue was dirt for 12 years until recently
- Cowford Chophouse recently opened and restored a building that was literally just walls about to fall over
- The waterfront in front of the old courthouse was literally falling in, and it's being repaired (not sexy and expensive, but necessary and being completed)
To name a few.
Maybe I'm just in a mood today, but I think I'm done replying to your, "we're all going to hell" comments. Do I agree with everything in Jax? No. Do I wish we were MUCH further along? Yes. Is NOTHING happening? That's not true at all.
Quote from: Steve on June 28, 2018, 10:19:43 AM
Quote from: Kerry on June 27, 2018, 05:36:07 PM
If the nation did have a recession that shut down reurbanization in cities across the country, could you tell it in Jax? Answer, No. And that is the problem.
Were you here in 2006-2008? You could not be more wrong about that. I can literally name 20 projects downtown that got shelved/killed during that time.
You make it sound like downtown is going through a Zombie Apocalypse. While I'd like there to be more, it's not like nothing is happening:
- Barnett is under construction right now
- Laura Trio Garage is about to break ground (I know, not exciting)
- Laura Trio is coming up
- Hotel Indigo is very likely to happen (just received final approval)
- Vestcor is doing three housing projects (1 just completed, 1 under construction, 1 in approval state)
- Brooklyn along Riverside Avenue was dirt for 12 years until recently
- Cowford Chophouse recently opened and restored a building that was literally just walls about to fall over
- The waterfront in front of the old courthouse was literally falling in, and it's being repaired (not sexy and expensive, but necessary and being completed)
To name a few.
Maybe I'm just in a mood today, but I think I'm done replying to your, "we're all going to hell" comments. Do I agree with everything in Jax? No. Do I wish we were MUCH further along? Yes. Is NOTHING happening? That's not true at all.
+1
Quote from: Steve on June 28, 2018, 10:19:43 AM
Quote from: Kerry on June 27, 2018, 05:36:07 PM
If the nation did have a recession that shut down reurbanization in cities across the country, could you tell it in Jax? Answer, No. And that is the problem.
Were you here in 2006-2008? You could not be more wrong about that. I can literally name 20 projects downtown that got shelved/killed during that time.
You make it sound like downtown is going through a Zombie Apocalypse. While I'd like there to be more, it's not like nothing is happening:
- Barnett is under construction right now
- Laura Trio Garage is about to break ground (I know, not exciting)
- Laura Trio is coming up
- Hotel Indigo is very likely to happen (just received final approval)
- Vestcor is doing three housing projects (1 just completed, 1 under construction, 1 in approval state)
- Brooklyn along Riverside Avenue was dirt for 12 years until recently
- Cowford Chophouse recently opened and restored a building that was literally just walls about to fall over
- The waterfront in front of the old courthouse was literally falling in, and it's being repaired (not sexy and expensive, but necessary and being completed)
To name a few.
Maybe I'm just in a mood today, but I think I'm done replying to your, "we're all going to hell" comments. Do I agree with everything in Jax? No. Do I wish we were MUCH further along? Yes. Is NOTHING happening? That's not true at all.
Do you ever look at what is happening in other cities around the country? 2018 Jax isn't in competition with 2008 Jax. It is in competition with peer cities around the country here in 2018.
Quote from: Kerry on July 02, 2018, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 28, 2018, 10:19:43 AM
Quote from: Kerry on June 27, 2018, 05:36:07 PM
If the nation did have a recession that shut down reurbanization in cities across the country, could you tell it in Jax? Answer, No. And that is the problem.
Were you here in 2006-2008? You could not be more wrong about that. I can literally name 20 projects downtown that got shelved/killed during that time.
You make it sound like downtown is going through a Zombie Apocalypse. While I'd like there to be more, it's not like nothing is happening:
- Barnett is under construction right now
- Laura Trio Garage is about to break ground (I know, not exciting)
- Laura Trio is coming up
- Hotel Indigo is very likely to happen (just received final approval)
- Vestcor is doing three housing projects (1 just completed, 1 under construction, 1 in approval state)
- Brooklyn along Riverside Avenue was dirt for 12 years until recently
- Cowford Chophouse recently opened and restored a building that was literally just walls about to fall over
- The waterfront in front of the old courthouse was literally falling in, and it's being repaired (not sexy and expensive, but necessary and being completed)
To name a few.
Maybe I'm just in a mood today, but I think I'm done replying to your, "we're all going to hell" comments. Do I agree with everything in Jax? No. Do I wish we were MUCH further along? Yes. Is NOTHING happening? That's not true at all.
Do you ever look at what is happening in other cities around the country? 2018 Jax isn't in competition with 2008 Jax. It is in competition with peer cities around the country here in 2018.
Ummm..yes. I'm aware that 2008 and 2018 aren't the same in terms of competition.
Not only do I pay attention to other cities, I travel to many of them. In the last 2.5 years, I've accumulated 276,000 Miles with Delta. To be clear - this is not miles earned through Credit Card Spend. These are true, "Butt In Seat" miles. So yes I do think I get around.
I'm just not in the mood to complain about every single thing. Do I think some things need to be voiced? Absolutely - see my comments in the Residence Inn thread. I actually think we're aligned there (the design is not great).
But, to say that NOTHING is going on here? That's where I lose my mind (plus between Thursday and Friday I spent literally 17 hours in the air - not cool).
Think about it this way: When your statements come across like illogical complaining (i.e. there's NOTHING going on here), people take you less seriously. Further, not every battle is going to be won. This is why I feel it's important to pick and choose. The Marriott thing? That's important in my eyes to pick and choose.
So we've heard a lot about what the government needs to do but is there little that we as individuals can do for the fountain or the other parks and attractions that are in need of assistance? Of course I don't have a spare $1 Million to throw into anything but there must be something.
Lori Boyer's started to openly discuss plans for her first two nodes with the media, so I think it's safe to share some details:
Friendship Fountain:
- Fairy-tale themed.
- Fully restore Friendship Fountain to it's 2013 glory.
- Add an outdoor amphitheater overlooking the fountain.
- Add misters and a laser projection system to the fountain so that that videos, animations, movies, etc. can be projected directly onto the fountain for visitors to watch.
- Turn the pumphouse in a platform for viewing the river and fountain, and add interactive educational features that guests can interact with.
- Add a playground themed after Peter Pan with a miniature splash park within it.
Times-Union Center:
- Musically themed.
- Add a series of 4-6 gardens to the grounds, representing various cultural advancements in Jacksonville.
- Outdoor amphitheater facing the CSX building.
- Movies/concerts/sporting events projected onto the side of the CSX building every night.
- Addition of food-service, possibly ground-level and an added rooftop level.
- Potential other addition the the Times-Union center, that I haven't seen specifically mentioned yet, but the use would fit nicely with the bigger theme of the nodes.
Sure hope the city finds a way to keep her involved once her council run is over. I am thinking Curry could add her to his administration. Perhaps the Urban Core Czar.
Lori Boyer has done great things, but fairy wonderland sounds a little ridiculous. They can't even maintain they fountain as is, what makes anyone think they will maintain the rest of this stuff??
Quote from: acme54321 on July 31, 2018, 07:47:22 PM
Lori Boyer has done great things, but fairy wonderland sounds a little ridiculous. They can't even maintain they fountain as is, what makes anyone think they will maintain the rest of this stuff??
I'm ok with the theme, I love the idea of projecting movies etc on the CSX building the most. Hopefully they will set aside money for maintainence.
Quote from: jagsonville on July 31, 2018, 08:01:37 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 31, 2018, 07:47:22 PM
Lori Boyer has done great things, but fairy wonderland sounds a little ridiculous. They can't even maintain they fountain as is, what makes anyone think they will maintain the rest of this stuff??
I'm ok with the theme, I love the idea of projecting movies etc on the CSX building the most. Hopefully they will set aside money for maintainence.
Lori has the right idea. Create alluring spectacles at street-level for pedestrian engagement. Make the most of downtown's spaces. Give the non-homeless a reason to linger downtown.
I tried really hard for 2 years to work something out with the city (Parks Dept) to let me put a time warp themed amusement area (Dinosaurs to spaceship rides) around the MOSH and fountain, but because I wanted to charge for the rides, I couldn't work it out. That is why they went with a free playground and splash pad.
Definitely a big improvement from what's there now.