Downtown on the verge of a hotel boom
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Downtown-Jacksonville-January/i-xnQtpdK/0/a6fbc4f0/L/20170128_124359-L.jpg)
16 years have passed since the last hotel opened its doors in Downtown Jacksonville. After years of inaction, the hotel industry is preparing to take the city's downtown core by storm. Here's a brief look at five sites where hotels are already proposed or under serious consideration.
Read More: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2018-mar-downtown-on-the-verge-of-a-hotel-boom
By comparison - 23 hotels have been built in downtown OKC in the last 16 years with 5 more currently under construction and several more in the planning stages.
Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on March 28, 2018, 06:30:02 AM
Downtown on the verge of a hotel boom
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Downtown-Jacksonville-January/i-xnQtpdK/0/a6fbc4f0/L/20170128_124359-L.jpg)
16 years have passed since the last hotel opened its doors in Downtown Jacksonville. After years of inaction, the hotel industry is preparing to take the city's downtown core by storm. Here's a brief look at five sites where hotels are already proposed or under serious consideration.
Read More: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2018-mar-downtown-on-the-verge-of-a-hotel-boom (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2018-mar-downtown-on-the-verge-of-a-hotel-boom)
Not really a "boom," more like a spark, perhaps a revival
Jax hasn't seen a new hotel in downtown in nearly 20 years. A revival locally is one or two. Over five significant projects of a particular building type qualifies as a boom locally.
Well, if you want to come up with your own local standards and definitions, then hell, call it a revolution. But from a national perspective, using the term "boom" to characterize anything underway in downtown Jax is a bit...presumptuous...and sad. Again, I want Jax to take off, to boom, but let's keep pressing until we really have that. No time to rest on one's laurels with any premature declarations of success.
No one ever said it was a boom on a national perspective (this is even subjective on several cherry picked factors). Probably more appropriate on a Deep South or Florida level but that's getting caught up on silly semantics. Be happy that something is actually happening that pushes DT Jax in the direction you claim you want it go.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2018, 01:02:32 PM
No one ever said it was a boom on a national perspective. Probably more appropriate on a Deep South or Florida level but that's getting caught up on silly semantics. Be happy that something is actually happening that pushes DT Jax in the direction you claim you want it go.
+1. It's almost as if there's a whole article underneath the headline explaining exactly what we're talking about, and we don't need to get into silly semantical arguments.
Jax will never be Miami, New York or even OKC believe it or not. Going from 7 to potentially 12 is a huge increase. You can call it whatever you want but it's huge for our fairly stagnant downtown and hopefully more positive development will follow.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 07, 2018, 01:08:25 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2018, 01:02:32 PM
No one ever said it was a boom on a national perspective. Probably more appropriate on a Deep South or Florida level but that's getting caught up on silly semantics. Be happy that something is actually happening that pushes DT Jax in the direction you claim you want it go.
+1. It's almost as if there's a whole article underneath the headline explaining exactly what we're talking about, and we don't need to get into silly semantical arguments.
Silly is a subjective judgment, and there would be no suggestion of an argument without your escalations. Your posts are so angry. I know what the article says. I enjoy many of Metro's downtown profiles, but on this one, I believe that "boom" is an overstatement, that's it. Not that I'm not happy downtown Jax is improving or heading in the right direction.
Quote from: jagsonville on April 07, 2018, 01:14:11 PM
Jax will never be Miami, New York or even OKC believe it or not. Going from 7 to potentially 12 is a huge increase. You can call it whatever you want but it's huge for our fairly stagnant downtown and hopefully more positive development will follow.
I agree Jax will never be those places, nor should it aim to be anything else but Jax. In fact, in many other posts, I've downplayed the importance of high-rises in downtown Jax, and instead argued for walkability and density and an urban design that invokes the best of local heritage and plays up Jax's originality. Again, downtown is moving in a positive direction, I just think boom is an overstatement. It is on the verge of showing signs of life again, revival, renewal, whatever you want to call it. It's all good.
The two obligatory postings; Jax will never be 'fill in the blank' cities, when literally no one suggested that it was. Also the downplaying of any success in the city. There's a place of Jax criticism sometimes, but this posting seem like a very strange place for it. Who cares what another city has, why would anyone want to play a 'keeping up with the Joneses' game, even if those extra hypothetical hotels aren't warranted?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on April 07, 2018, 06:11:16 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 07, 2018, 01:08:25 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2018, 01:02:32 PM
No one ever said it was a boom on a national perspective. Probably more appropriate on a Deep South or Florida level but that's getting caught up on silly semantics. Be happy that something is actually happening that pushes DT Jax in the direction you claim you want it go.
+1. It's almost as if there's a whole article underneath the headline explaining exactly what we're talking about, and we don't need to get into silly semantical arguments.
Silly is a subjective judgment, and there would be no suggestion of an argument without your escalations. Your posts are so angry. I know what the article says. I enjoy many of Metro's downtown profiles, but on this one, I believe that "boom" is an overstatement, that's it. Not that I'm not happy downtown Jax is improving or heading in the right direction.
My posts may be sardonic, but certainly not angry. Again, you might try to be less thin skinned.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 08, 2018, 12:09:49 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on April 07, 2018, 06:11:16 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 07, 2018, 01:08:25 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2018, 01:02:32 PM
No one ever said it was a boom on a national perspective. Probably more appropriate on a Deep South or Florida level but that's getting caught up on silly semantics. Be happy that something is actually happening that pushes DT Jax in the direction you claim you want it go.
+1. It's almost as if there's a whole article underneath the headline explaining exactly what we're talking about, and we don't need to get into silly semantical arguments.
Silly is a subjective judgment, and there would be no suggestion of an argument without your escalations. Your posts are so angry. I know what the article says. I enjoy many of Metro's downtown profiles, but on this one, I believe that "boom" is an overstatement, that's it. Not that I'm not happy downtown Jax is improving or heading in the right direction.
My posts may be sardonic, but certainly not angry. Again, you might try to be less thin skinned.
They're definitely angry, but i don't even know you, so I know the anger isn't about me, and I don't have the time or interest to account for what's bugging you outside of this message forum. At any rate, I simply offered a more nuanced characterization of downtown's hotel pipeline than what was in the article. There really wasn't a need for a nasty response on your part.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on April 08, 2018, 05:17:41 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 08, 2018, 12:09:49 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on April 07, 2018, 06:11:16 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 07, 2018, 01:08:25 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2018, 01:02:32 PM
No one ever said it was a boom on a national perspective. Probably more appropriate on a Deep South or Florida level but that's getting caught up on silly semantics. Be happy that something is actually happening that pushes DT Jax in the direction you claim you want it go.
+1. It's almost as if there's a whole article underneath the headline explaining exactly what we're talking about, and we don't need to get into silly semantical arguments.
Silly is a subjective judgment, and there would be no suggestion of an argument without your escalations. Your posts are so angry. I know what the article says. I enjoy many of Metro's downtown profiles, but on this one, I believe that "boom" is an overstatement, that's it. Not that I'm not happy downtown Jax is improving or heading in the right direction.
My posts may be sardonic, but certainly not angry. Again, you might try to be less thin skinned.
They're definitely angry, but i don't eve n know you, so I know the anger isn't about me, and I don't have the time or interest to account for what's bugging you outside of this message forum. At any rate, I simply offered a more nuanced characterization of downtown's hotel pipeline than what was in the article. There really wasn't a need for a nasty response on your part.
Yes, that line about silly sematic debates sure was out of line.
You're forgiven. Try not to be so hard on yourself
Why does Jacksonville have so many boo-birds? I don't care what happens in our city, all the boo-birds start booing-even if the news is positive. Jacksonville's biggest problem is not geographic, it isn't our education system, or our lack of nightlife. Our problem is a deep rooted lack of self worth. I think the roots of our problems began after WW2 when folks moved here from rural areas to find work. They were used to living hand to mouth and expected little. They wanted a job in a mill, a home, and whatever they could easily get. Things are slowly changing, but we need to get beyond the "we have all we need" mentality. If I were mayor the first thing I would do would start a department within my administration to raise the spirit of Jacksonville. We really have a problem. Someone can post a story of it raining silver in Jacksonville and immediately posts would start that in Orlando, Atlanta, OKC, fill in the blank, it's raining gold. Let's turn over a new leaf and stop being so negative. Any new hotels, restaurants, entertainment in downtown is GOOD. Look on the sunny side!
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 10, 2018, 09:24:22 AM
Why does Jacksonville have so many boo-birds? I don't care what happens in our city, all the boo-birds start booing-even if the news is positive. Jacksonville's biggest problem is not geographic, it isn't our education system, or our lack of nightlife. Our problem is a deep rooted lack of self worth. I think the roots of our problems began after WW2 when folks moved here from rural areas to find work. They were used to living hand to mouth and expected little. They wanted a job in a mill, a home, and whatever they could easily get. Things are slowly changing, but we need to get beyond the "we have all we need" mentality. If I were mayor the first thing I would do would start a department within my administration to raise the spirit of Jacksonville. We really have a problem. Someone can post a story of it raining silver in Jacksonville and immediately posts would start that in Orlando, Atlanta, OKC, fill in the blank, it's raining gold. Let's turn over a new leaf and stop being so negative. Any new hotels, restaurants, entertainment in downtown is GOOD. Look on the sunny side!
Yeah, I've always thought the inferiority complex is just about the worst thing about living here. Never really understood it. Though I do think it's gotten a lot better over the course of my lifetime (for most people, anyway).
I believe some of the inferiority complex is still residual from the old "paper mill smell in the air". It takes awhile to drop that perception from the northerners driving through town on I95, even with the paper mills gone 15-20 years ago.
Quote from: jaxjags on April 10, 2018, 10:48:47 AM
I believe some of the inferiority complex is still residual from the old "paper mill smell in the air". It takes awhile to drop that perception from the northerners driving through town on I95, even with the paper mills gone 15-20 years ago.
That plus the irritating tolls. Both are long gone, but once a reputation is established you have to work to change it.
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 10, 2018, 09:24:22 AM
Why does Jacksonville have so many boo-birds? I don't care what happens in our city, all the boo-birds start booing-even if the news is positive. Jacksonville's biggest problem is not geographic, it isn't our education system, or our lack of nightlife. Our problem is a deep rooted lack of self worth. I think the roots of our problems began after WW2 when folks moved here from rural areas to find work. They were used to living hand to mouth and expected little. They wanted a job in a mill, a home, and whatever they could easily get. Things are slowly changing, but we need to get beyond the "we have all we need" mentality. If I were mayor the first thing I would do would start a department within my administration to raise the spirit of Jacksonville. We really have a problem. Someone can post a story of it raining silver in Jacksonville and immediately posts would start that in Orlando, Atlanta, OKC, fill in the blank, it's raining gold. Let's turn over a new leaf and stop being so negative. Any new hotels, restaurants, entertainment in downtown is GOOD. Look on the sunny side!
The inferiority complex certainly did have a lot to do with Jacksonville's working class composition. As Orlando, Tampa, and Miami exploded post-WW2 and into the 1980s in terms of development, industry (particularly tech), and tourism, Jacksonville was largely left behind. Many people didn't even know that Jacksonville, Florida was a city, and those who did often treated it like a punchline ("the armpit of Florida") because of the terrible smell the city had because of the paper mills. One mayor, Jake Godbold, did exactly what you suggested after a poll revealed that Jacksonville citizens felt even worse about their city than the rest of the country.
The inferiority complex has ebbed and flowed over the years.
It improved in the 80s when downtown development boomed, the Landing was opened, the Mayo Clinic came to town, and the smell was gone.
It dipped when a parade of NFL owners used Jacksonville as a stepping stone to better deals in other markets.
It improved dramatically when the NFL awarded Jacksonville an NFL franchise, and the team came out punching.
It dipped when the team started losing, tickets were given away for free, and the national media started questioning Jacksonville's merit.
It improved again when the Better Jacksonville Plan brought a new arena, baseball stadium, and world-class library to the urban core, and Jacksonville was awarded Super Bowl XXXIX.
And it went into the absolute dumps when the national media torched Jacksonville's Super Bowl, the recession hit, the stadium was empty on Sundays, the Jags-to-LA rumors were literally daily fodder for sports radio. and half the city seemed to be out of work.
And now, to Bill's point above, though the inferiority complex may linger to those who have been here for 40 or 50 years, I honestly believe that it's nearly
dead for everyone else, especially the young. Not only dead, but replaced with genuine pride.
Others might disagree, but I think it started with Shad Khan. Jacksonville has fought for acceptance for so long that sometimes it just takes someone (like a Forbes billionaire) coming along that not only believes in you, but challenges you to be better. It's a super petty thing on paper, but that first round of major investments in the stadium with the scoreboards and swimming pools were a really big deal psychologically for a city that had long been told their NFL team was transient. And, to me, that night at the stadium where 60,000 came out for the Fulham game, scoreboard reveals, and Carrie Underwood concert was a real turning point for morale. Khan's speech about Jacksonville's potential, and the video they used to debut to scoreboards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gAitc5ltRE) was pretty inspiring.
Again, others might (wrongly) disagree, but the entire Town Center area has been a huge self-esteem boost for Jacksonville as well. Prior to the Town Center, you had pockets of the same restaurants here and there (Outback, Carrabbas, Chilis, Fridays) and a two-story mall by 95, and that was basically it. The Town Center literally brought hundreds and hundreds of new restaurants and stores to town - many, like Tiffany, Nordstrom, etc. having that high-end cache that Jacksonville has always longed for, if for no other reason than validation - all in a (reasonably) centrally-located area.
We've also had a string of high-profile companies betting on Jax, like IKEA, Amazon, Deutsche Bank, Top Golf.
And, perhaps most importantly, we've had a massive youth and culture movement in this city in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, we were an Outback, Bud Light, and Starbucks city. Since then, the dining scene has absolutely exploded. Amazing breweries have popped up all over the city. Ditto coffee shops. UNF has made major strides. The HRO passed. Rooftop bars are popping up all over the place. Brooklyn and Riverside/Five Points have come into their own.
Dare I say it, Jacksonville has really started to develop an identity in the last few years that isn't dependent on whether we have a Macy's.
I work in advertising/marketing, which skews very young, and the positive shift in perception I've seen over the years about Jacksonville is just insane.
Let the crusty old pessimists cry in a corner.
Jax is coming into its own and transforming itself, at a sustainable pace, just by being itself.
More recently, Jax has had to recovered from what was perceived as a failed Super Bowl showing. There has been a lot of positive movement (in pockets) for the city. The state of Jaguars address next week will be interesting to see what the next steps are for the city.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 10, 2018, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 10, 2018, 09:24:22 AM
Why does Jacksonville have so many boo-birds? I don't care what happens in our city, all the boo-birds start booing-even if the news is positive. Jacksonville's biggest problem is not geographic, it isn't our education system, or our lack of nightlife. Our problem is a deep rooted lack of self worth. I think the roots of our problems began after WW2 when folks moved here from rural areas to find work. They were used to living hand to mouth and expected little. They wanted a job in a mill, a home, and whatever they could easily get. Things are slowly changing, but we need to get beyond the "we have all we need" mentality. If I were mayor the first thing I would do would start a department within my administration to raise the spirit of Jacksonville. We really have a problem. Someone can post a story of it raining silver in Jacksonville and immediately posts would start that in Orlando, Atlanta, OKC, fill in the blank, it's raining gold. Let's turn over a new leaf and stop being so negative. Any new hotels, restaurants, entertainment in downtown is GOOD. Look on the sunny side!
The inferiority complex certainly did have a lot to do with Jacksonville's working class composition. As Orlando, Tampa, and Miami exploded post-WW2 and into the 1980s in terms of development, industry (particularly tech), and tourism, Jacksonville was largely left behind. Many people didn't even know that Jacksonville, Florida was a city, and those who did often treated it like a punchline ("the armpit of Florida") because of the terrible smell the city had because of the paper mills. One mayor, Jake Godbold, did exactly what you suggested after a poll revealed that Jacksonville citizens felt even worse about their city than the rest of the country.
The inferiority complex has ebbed and flowed over the years.
It improved in the 80s when downtown development boomed, the Landing was opened, the Mayo Clinic came to town, and the smell was gone.
It dipped when a parade of NFL owners used Jacksonville as a stepping stone to better deals in other markets.
It improved dramatically when the NFL awarded Jacksonville an NFL franchise, and the team came out punching.
It dipped when the team started losing, tickets were given away for free, and the national media started questioning Jacksonville's merit.
It improved again when the Better Jacksonville Plan brought a new arena, baseball stadium, and world-class library to the urban core, and Jacksonville was awarded Super Bowl XXXIX.
And it went into the absolute dumps when the national media torched Jacksonville's Super Bowl, the recession hit, the stadium was empty on Sundays, the Jags-to-LA rumors were literally daily fodder for sports radio. and half the city seemed to be out of work.
And now, to Bill's point above, though the inferiority complex may linger to those who have been here for 40 or 50 years, I honestly believe that it's nearly dead for everyone else, especially the young. Not only dead, but replaced with genuine pride.
Others might disagree, but I think it started with Shad Khan. Jacksonville has fought for acceptance for so long that sometimes it just takes someone (like a Forbes billionaire) coming along that not only believes in you, but challenges you to be better. It's a super petty thing on paper, but that first round of major investments in the stadium with the scoreboards and swimming pools were a really big deal psychologically for a city that had long been told their NFL team was transient. And, to me, that night at the stadium where 60,000 came out for the Fulham game, scoreboard reveals, and Carrie Underwood concert was a real turning point for morale. Khan's speech about Jacksonville's potential, and the video they used to debut to scoreboards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gAitc5ltRE) was pretty inspiring.
Again, others might (wrongly) disagree, but the entire Town Center area has been a huge self-esteem boost for Jacksonville as well. Prior to the Town Center, you had pockets of the same restaurants here and there (Outback, Carrabbas, Chilis, Fridays) and a two-story mall by 95, and that was basically it. The Town Center literally brought hundreds and hundreds of new restaurants and stores to town - many, like Tiffany, Nordstrom, etc. having that high-end cache that Jacksonville has always longed for, if for no other reason than validation - all in a (reasonably) centrally-located area.
We've also had a string of high-profile companies betting on Jax, like IKEA, Amazon, Deutsche Bank, Top Golf.
And, perhaps most importantly, we've had a massive youth and culture movement in this city in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, we were an Outback, Bud Light, and Starbucks city. Since then, the dining scene has absolutely exploded. Amazing breweries have popped up all over the city. Ditto coffee shops. UNF has made major strides. The HRO passed. Rooftop bars are popping up all over the place. Brooklyn and Riverside/Five Points have come into their own.
Dare I say it, Jacksonville has really started to develop an identity in the last few years that isn't dependent on whether we have a Macy's.
I work in advertising/marketing, which skews very young, and the positive shift in perception I've seen over the years about Jacksonville is just insane.
Let the crusty old pessimists cry in a corner.
Jax is coming into its own and transforming itself, at a sustainable pace, just by being itself.
Kenny, this needs to be published somewhere on a forum much larger than this. I am serious. This is the type of thing I read in the Sunday viewpoints in the TU. Well-said, sir.
I have been teaching and living in Jacksonville for about 7 years now. We came here in the middle of the recession. At this time I have seen a lot of moves in the right direction. I truly give a lot of credit to Metrojacksonville. In the last 2 years I have noticed my students do not want to leave town for a better place. If they leave, they seem to come back.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 10, 2018, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 10, 2018, 09:24:22 AM
Why does Jacksonville have so many boo-birds? I don't care what happens in our city, all the boo-birds start booing-even if the news is positive. Jacksonville's biggest problem is not geographic, it isn't our education system, or our lack of nightlife. Our problem is a deep rooted lack of self worth. I think the roots of our problems began after WW2 when folks moved here from rural areas to find work. They were used to living hand to mouth and expected little. They wanted a job in a mill, a home, and whatever they could easily get. Things are slowly changing, but we need to get beyond the "we have all we need" mentality. If I were mayor the first thing I would do would start a department within my administration to raise the spirit of Jacksonville. We really have a problem. Someone can post a story of it raining silver in Jacksonville and immediately posts would start that in Orlando, Atlanta, OKC, fill in the blank, it's raining gold. Let's turn over a new leaf and stop being so negative. Any new hotels, restaurants, entertainment in downtown is GOOD. Look on the sunny side!
The inferiority complex certainly did have a lot to do with Jacksonville's working class composition. As Orlando, Tampa, and Miami exploded post-WW2 and into the 1980s in terms of development, industry (particularly tech), and tourism, Jacksonville was largely left behind. Many people didn't even know that Jacksonville, Florida was a city, and those who did often treated it like a punchline ("the armpit of Florida") because of the terrible smell the city had because of the paper mills. One mayor, Jake Godbold, did exactly what you suggested after a poll revealed that Jacksonville citizens felt even worse about their city than the rest of the country.
The inferiority complex has ebbed and flowed over the years.
It improved in the 80s when downtown development boomed, the Landing was opened, the Mayo Clinic came to town, and the smell was gone.
It dipped when a parade of NFL owners used Jacksonville as a stepping stone to better deals in other markets.
It improved dramatically when the NFL awarded Jacksonville an NFL franchise, and the team came out punching.
It dipped when the team started losing, tickets were given away for free, and the national media started questioning Jacksonville's merit.
It improved again when the Better Jacksonville Plan brought a new arena, baseball stadium, and world-class library to the urban core, and Jacksonville was awarded Super Bowl XXXIX.
And it went into the absolute dumps when the national media torched Jacksonville's Super Bowl, the recession hit, the stadium was empty on Sundays, the Jags-to-LA rumors were literally daily fodder for sports radio. and half the city seemed to be out of work.
And now, to Bill's point above, though the inferiority complex may linger to those who have been here for 40 or 50 years, I honestly believe that it's nearly dead for everyone else, especially the young. Not only dead, but replaced with genuine pride.
Others might disagree, but I think it started with Shad Khan. Jacksonville has fought for acceptance for so long that sometimes it just takes someone (like a Forbes billionaire) coming along that not only believes in you, but challenges you to be better. It's a super petty thing on paper, but that first round of major investments in the stadium with the scoreboards and swimming pools were a really big deal psychologically for a city that had long been told their NFL team was transient. And, to me, that night at the stadium where 60,000 came out for the Fulham game, scoreboard reveals, and Carrie Underwood concert was a real turning point for morale. Khan's speech about Jacksonville's potential, and the video they used to debut to scoreboards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gAitc5ltRE) was pretty inspiring.
Again, others might (wrongly) disagree, but the entire Town Center area has been a huge self-esteem boost for Jacksonville as well. Prior to the Town Center, you had pockets of the same restaurants here and there (Outback, Carrabbas, Chilis, Fridays) and a two-story mall by 95, and that was basically it. The Town Center literally brought hundreds and hundreds of new restaurants and stores to town - many, like Tiffany, Nordstrom, etc. having that high-end cache that Jacksonville has always longed for, if for no other reason than validation - all in a (reasonably) centrally-located area.
We've also had a string of high-profile companies betting on Jax, like IKEA, Amazon, Deutsche Bank, Top Golf.
And, perhaps most importantly, we've had a massive youth and culture movement in this city in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, we were an Outback, Bud Light, and Starbucks city. Since then, the dining scene has absolutely exploded. Amazing breweries have popped up all over the city. Ditto coffee shops. UNF has made major strides. The HRO passed. Rooftop bars are popping up all over the place. Brooklyn and Riverside/Five Points have come into their own.
Dare I say it, Jacksonville has really started to develop an identity in the last few years that isn't dependent on whether we have a Macy's.
I work in advertising/marketing, which skews very young, and the positive shift in perception I've seen over the years about Jacksonville is just insane.
Let the crusty old pessimists cry in a corner.
Jax is coming into its own and transforming itself, at a sustainable pace, just by being itself.
I totally agree that the worst boo birds are the ones who have lived here the longest. I was born here 72 years ago and I have fought this mentality all my life. I have always loved our city. When mayor Jake set out to get a football team, he was heckled and called a redneck buffoon, even by his friends. He always believed in Jax. Tommy Hazouri was behind the toll removal and ridding us of the mill odors. What Jacksonville needs more than anything is the spirit of the young people to overcome the old. For all the good that Hazouri did for this city, he was defeated due to telling the truth about garbage taxes. Let's talk about what's good about our city. Our weather, our port, our sports teams, our friendliness, our beaches and rivers. I've noticed during my lifetime that many of the people who disparaged and left Jacksonville, seem to move back after going to other places. I love Jacksonville!
^Can I just say, AMAZING avatar for a 72-year old..
Hope I'm that cool at 72 ;)
Quote from: TimmyB on April 10, 2018, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 10, 2018, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 10, 2018, 09:24:22 AM
Why does Jacksonville have so many boo-birds? I don't care what happens in our city, all the boo-birds start booing-even if the news is positive. Jacksonville's biggest problem is not geographic, it isn't our education system, or our lack of nightlife. Our problem is a deep rooted lack of self worth. I think the roots of our problems began after WW2 when folks moved here from rural areas to find work. They were used to living hand to mouth and expected little. They wanted a job in a mill, a home, and whatever they could easily get. Things are slowly changing, but we need to get beyond the "we have all we need" mentality. If I were mayor the first thing I would do would start a department within my administration to raise the spirit of Jacksonville. We really have a problem. Someone can post a story of it raining silver in Jacksonville and immediately posts would start that in Orlando, Atlanta, OKC, fill in the blank, it's raining gold. Let's turn over a new leaf and stop being so negative. Any new hotels, restaurants, entertainment in downtown is GOOD. Look on the sunny side!
The inferiority complex certainly did have a lot to do with Jacksonville's working class composition. As Orlando, Tampa, and Miami exploded post-WW2 and into the 1980s in terms of development, industry (particularly tech), and tourism, Jacksonville was largely left behind. Many people didn't even know that Jacksonville, Florida was a city, and those who did often treated it like a punchline ("the armpit of Florida") because of the terrible smell the city had because of the paper mills. One mayor, Jake Godbold, did exactly what you suggested after a poll revealed that Jacksonville citizens felt even worse about their city than the rest of the country.
The inferiority complex has ebbed and flowed over the years.
It improved in the 80s when downtown development boomed, the Landing was opened, the Mayo Clinic came to town, and the smell was gone.
It dipped when a parade of NFL owners used Jacksonville as a stepping stone to better deals in other markets.
It improved dramatically when the NFL awarded Jacksonville an NFL franchise, and the team came out punching.
It dipped when the team started losing, tickets were given away for free, and the national media started questioning Jacksonville's merit.
It improved again when the Better Jacksonville Plan brought a new arena, baseball stadium, and world-class library to the urban core, and Jacksonville was awarded Super Bowl XXXIX.
And it went into the absolute dumps when the national media torched Jacksonville's Super Bowl, the recession hit, the stadium was empty on Sundays, the Jags-to-LA rumors were literally daily fodder for sports radio. and half the city seemed to be out of work.
And now, to Bill's point above, though the inferiority complex may linger to those who have been here for 40 or 50 years, I honestly believe that it's nearly dead for everyone else, especially the young. Not only dead, but replaced with genuine pride.
Others might disagree, but I think it started with Shad Khan. Jacksonville has fought for acceptance for so long that sometimes it just takes someone (like a Forbes billionaire) coming along that not only believes in you, but challenges you to be better. It's a super petty thing on paper, but that first round of major investments in the stadium with the scoreboards and swimming pools were a really big deal psychologically for a city that had long been told their NFL team was transient. And, to me, that night at the stadium where 60,000 came out for the Fulham game, scoreboard reveals, and Carrie Underwood concert was a real turning point for morale. Khan's speech about Jacksonville's potential, and the video they used to debut to scoreboards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gAitc5ltRE) was pretty inspiring.
Again, others might (wrongly) disagree, but the entire Town Center area has been a huge self-esteem boost for Jacksonville as well. Prior to the Town Center, you had pockets of the same restaurants here and there (Outback, Carrabbas, Chilis, Fridays) and a two-story mall by 95, and that was basically it. The Town Center literally brought hundreds and hundreds of new restaurants and stores to town - many, like Tiffany, Nordstrom, etc. having that high-end cache that Jacksonville has always longed for, if for no other reason than validation - all in a (reasonably) centrally-located area.
We've also had a string of high-profile companies betting on Jax, like IKEA, Amazon, Deutsche Bank, Top Golf.
And, perhaps most importantly, we've had a massive youth and culture movement in this city in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, we were an Outback, Bud Light, and Starbucks city. Since then, the dining scene has absolutely exploded. Amazing breweries have popped up all over the city. Ditto coffee shops. UNF has made major strides. The HRO passed. Rooftop bars are popping up all over the place. Brooklyn and Riverside/Five Points have come into their own.
Dare I say it, Jacksonville has really started to develop an identity in the last few years that isn't dependent on whether we have a Macy's.
I work in advertising/marketing, which skews very young, and the positive shift in perception I've seen over the years about Jacksonville is just insane.
Let the crusty old pessimists cry in a corner.
Jax is coming into its own and transforming itself, at a sustainable pace, just by being itself.
Kenny, this needs to be published somewhere on a forum much larger than this. I am serious. This is the type of thing I read in the Sunday viewpoints in the TU. Well-said, sir.
Thanks Tim!
That's a nice compliment :)
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 10, 2018, 01:11:38 PM
I totally agree that the worst boo birds are the ones who have lived here the longest. I was born here 72 years ago and I have fought this mentality all my life. I have always loved our city. When mayor Jake set out to get a football team, he was heckled and called a redneck buffoon, even by his friends. He always believed in Jax. Tommy Hazouri was behind the toll removal and ridding us of the mill odors. What Jacksonville needs more than anything is the spirit of the young people to overcome the old. For all the good that Hazouri did for this city, he was defeated due to telling the truth about garbage taxes. Let's talk about what's good about our city. Our weather, our port, our sports teams, our friendliness, our beaches and rivers. I've noticed during my lifetime that many of the people who disparaged and left Jacksonville, seem to move back after going to other places. I love Jacksonville!
We looked for 11 years for our retirement home, everywhere from Seattle, through Texas, to Florida. We chose Jacksonville for those same reasons that you listed. It's a great place to be, if you are looking forward. However, there are so many missteps from the past that continue to haunt/taint the images and opinions. I can understand why so many (especially the old guard) are skeptical or even downright pessimistic about the pie-in-the-sky things that are announced. I truly believe that if Khan can build that entertainment district and the Rummels group can do that one across the river, the ball will be unstoppable going down that hill; if these two aren't built, it will be more of the "See...I told you so!"
KenFSU-
Frikkin Amen!
Quote from: KenFSU on April 10, 2018, 01:26:31 PM
^Can I just say, AMAZING avatar for a 72-year old..
Hope I'm that cool at 72 ;)
Thanks Ken. We need more people like you and the others here on MetroJacksonville. When we were raising our children, the biggest kick and proudest moments were when our kid's friends told them they had "cool" parents. We still feel more like friends to those "kids" instead of their elders. The younger kids are cooler, have less prejudices, and more peaceful than our generation. I'm learning from, and trying to be like them and less like us older folks.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 10, 2018, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on April 10, 2018, 09:24:22 AM
Why does Jacksonville have so many boo-birds? I don't care what happens in our city, all the boo-birds start booing-even if the news is positive. Jacksonville's biggest problem is not geographic, it isn't our education system, or our lack of nightlife. Our problem is a deep rooted lack of self worth. I think the roots of our problems began after WW2 when folks moved here from rural areas to find work. They were used to living hand to mouth and expected little. They wanted a job in a mill, a home, and whatever they could easily get. Things are slowly changing, but we need to get beyond the "we have all we need" mentality. If I were mayor the first thing I would do would start a department within my administration to raise the spirit of Jacksonville. We really have a problem. Someone can post a story of it raining silver in Jacksonville and immediately posts would start that in Orlando, Atlanta, OKC, fill in the blank, it's raining gold. Let's turn over a new leaf and stop being so negative. Any new hotels, restaurants, entertainment in downtown is GOOD. Look on the sunny side!
The inferiority complex certainly did have a lot to do with Jacksonville's working class composition. As Orlando, Tampa, and Miami exploded post-WW2 and into the 1980s in terms of development, industry (particularly tech), and tourism, Jacksonville was largely left behind. Many people didn't even know that Jacksonville, Florida was a city, and those who did often treated it like a punchline ("the armpit of Florida") because of the terrible smell the city had because of the paper mills. One mayor, Jake Godbold, did exactly what you suggested after a poll revealed that Jacksonville citizens felt even worse about their city than the rest of the country.
The inferiority complex has ebbed and flowed over the years.
It improved in the 80s when downtown development boomed, the Landing was opened, the Mayo Clinic came to town, and the smell was gone.
It dipped when a parade of NFL owners used Jacksonville as a stepping stone to better deals in other markets.
It improved dramatically when the NFL awarded Jacksonville an NFL franchise, and the team came out punching.
It dipped when the team started losing, tickets were given away for free, and the national media started questioning Jacksonville's merit.
It improved again when the Better Jacksonville Plan brought a new arena, baseball stadium, and world-class library to the urban core, and Jacksonville was awarded Super Bowl XXXIX.
And it went into the absolute dumps when the national media torched Jacksonville's Super Bowl, the recession hit, the stadium was empty on Sundays, the Jags-to-LA rumors were literally daily fodder for sports radio. and half the city seemed to be out of work.
And now, to Bill's point above, though the inferiority complex may linger to those who have been here for 40 or 50 years, I honestly believe that it's nearly dead for everyone else, especially the young. Not only dead, but replaced with genuine pride.
Others might disagree, but I think it started with Shad Khan. Jacksonville has fought for acceptance for so long that sometimes it just takes someone (like a Forbes billionaire) coming along that not only believes in you, but challenges you to be better. It's a super petty thing on paper, but that first round of major investments in the stadium with the scoreboards and swimming pools were a really big deal psychologically for a city that had long been told their NFL team was transient. And, to me, that night at the stadium where 60,000 came out for the Fulham game, scoreboard reveals, and Carrie Underwood concert was a real turning point for morale. Khan's speech about Jacksonville's potential, and the video they used to debut to scoreboards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gAitc5ltRE) was pretty inspiring.
Again, others might (wrongly) disagree, but the entire Town Center area has been a huge self-esteem boost for Jacksonville as well. Prior to the Town Center, you had pockets of the same restaurants here and there (Outback, Carrabbas, Chilis, Fridays) and a two-story mall by 95, and that was basically it. The Town Center literally brought hundreds and hundreds of new restaurants and stores to town - many, like Tiffany, Nordstrom, etc. having that high-end cache that Jacksonville has always longed for, if for no other reason than validation - all in a (reasonably) centrally-located area.
We've also had a string of high-profile companies betting on Jax, like IKEA, Amazon, Deutsche Bank, Top Golf.
And, perhaps most importantly, we've had a massive youth and culture movement in this city in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, we were an Outback, Bud Light, and Starbucks city. Since then, the dining scene has absolutely exploded. Amazing breweries have popped up all over the city. Ditto coffee shops. UNF has made major strides. The HRO passed. Rooftop bars are popping up all over the place. Brooklyn and Riverside/Five Points have come into their own.
Dare I say it, Jacksonville has really started to develop an identity in the last few years that isn't dependent on whether we have a Macy's.
I work in advertising/marketing, which skews very young, and the positive shift in perception I've seen over the years about Jacksonville is just insane.
Let the crusty old pessimists cry in a corner.
Jax is coming into its own and transforming itself, at a sustainable pace, just by being itself.
Excellent and accurate history. My daughter is a cool kid living and working in Manhattan (public relations firm). To your point about what the young'uns feel about Jax, she says that when she starts a family, she's moving back. Loves the place. And why wouldn't she?
Im 22 and everyone my age agrees Jacksonville is on the rise. There is a lot of pride in the city amongst us 90s kids, I credit growing up watching the Jags.
Quote from: JaGoaT on April 11, 2018, 11:29:53 PM
Im 22 and everyone my age agrees Jacksonville is on the rise. There is a lot of pride in the city amongst us 90s kids, I credit growing up watching the Jags.
I'm 25, and a lot of my friends seem more or less "happy enough" with Jax, despite having traveled to places like LA, NYC, Chicago, etc. Honestly, that's good enough for me, even though I am pretty proud of and happy to be in Jax, and am an outspoken proponent for liking Jax. I think a lot of the anti-Jax rhetoric I heard of came from when I lived in Fleming Island while I was in high school. My peers then didn't really hate Jax, I don't think, as much as they hated Fleming/Clay County, but just bundled Jax into it since OP/FI area is considered the "Jacksonville area".
I'm honestly really glad to hear some of this positive talk. Mindset and perspective makes a huge difference in day-to-day life and in the way a community functions, so being positive is typically better than being negative IMHO, especially in the sense of "liking where you are". I have a lot of coworkers who haven't been downtown in a while, or to Riverside, San Marco, the beaches, etc. in a very long time, and to me they're just pigeonholing themselves so that they never fully appreciate what this city has to offer. Then again, those coworkers seem to live in the bedroom communities, so maybe THAT'S what they actually dislike?
Long story short, I like the positivity in this thread. GO JAX
Quote from: jax_hwy_engineer on April 12, 2018, 10:26:33 AM
Quote from: JaGoaT on April 11, 2018, 11:29:53 PM
Im 22 and everyone my age agrees Jacksonville is on the rise. There is a lot of pride in the city amongst us 90s kids, I credit growing up watching the Jags.
I'm 25, and a lot of my friends seem more or less "happy enough" with Jax, despite having traveled to places like LA, NYC, Chicago, etc. Honestly, that's good enough for me, even though I am pretty proud of and happy to be in Jax, and am an outspoken proponent for liking Jax. I think a lot of the anti-Jax rhetoric I heard of came from when I lived in Fleming Island while I was in high school. My peers then didn't really hate Jax, I don't think, as much as they hated Fleming/Clay County, but just bundled Jax into it since OP/FI area is considered the "Jacksonville area".
I'm honestly really glad to hear some of this positive talk. Mindset and perspective makes a huge difference in day-to-day life and in the way a community functions, so being positive is typically better than being negative IMHO, especially in the sense of "liking where you are". I have a lot of coworkers who haven't been downtown in a while, or to Riverside, San Marco, the beaches, etc. in a very long time, and to me they're just pigeonholing themselves so that they never fully appreciate what this city has to offer. Then again, those coworkers seem to live in the bedroom communities, so maybe THAT'S what they actually dislike?
Long story short, I like the positivity in this thread. GO JAX
Generally speaking, a message thread like this should and does draw people who care for Jacksonville and are positive on its future. Anyone taking time to read and contribute has to have some flame burning inside for the city. Optimism, however, doesn't have to mean complacency. Historically, I've enjoyed metrojacksonville because people "respectfully" explore and debate alternative roads to the downtown we all hope to have someday, and sometimes a discussion of alternatives requires a bit of benchmarking and even disagreement. Having said that, fundamentally Jacksonville should be proud of what it is, and should find ways to show its history and heritage and originality to the world. An Authentic Jax is the only version of Jacksonville that will maintain and grow the respect of both its residents and outsiders.
Growing-up in Jacksonville (area) at this time is great. Not only did the nineties kids get to grow up rooting for the Jaguars, they have so much more as far as entertainment goes. Dailey's Place, St. Aug. amp., PV, etc. I'm planning to start a new thread on living in Jax and I hope KenFSU will write us another piece. Reading the positive posts from all of you has made me feel proud.
I've always felt the inferiority complex, and the nearly pathological negativity that comes with it, comes in large part from the lack of identity. And that has a lot to do with the state of Downtown. The city lost its traditional center, and without that it was hard to get a sense of what Jax was all about, and without that it was harder to see the good qualities of the city. I think it's natural for kids in the suburbs to think of their environment as stifling and generic. It's that much harder to get past that when the more attractive alternatives aren't readily apparent. And from there, it's harder to get motivated to do something about it to make your city better, instead of succumbing to fatalism, or leaving.
I'd credit a lot of the current good vibes to the people of past generations who did something about it - those who put the work in to make the city better. The case in point to me is Jake Godbold. He came in at a time when both Downtown and civic pride were probably at their lowest ebbs, but he was the greatest booster the city ever had, encouraging people to think bigger and value their city more. Not every one of his initiatives came together perfectly, but he was so enthusiastic and determined that it was catching. I think the "yes we can" attitude instilled by Jake and his people and successors is a large part of why younger people often have a different outlook than older generations, and are somewhat less susceptible to the inferiority complex that is the city's greatest curse.
Today, things are much different than they were even 20 years ago. Downtown isn't there yet, but but other parts of the urban core have become genuinely cool, and it finally seems like things are on an upswing. There are people interested in - and support - local food, and culture. That's perhaps the biggest change I've seen since growing up here in the 80s and 90s.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2018, 05:35:02 PM
I've always felt the inferiority complex, and the nearly pathological negativity that comes with it, comes in large part from the lack of identity. And that has a lot to do with the state of Downtown. The city lost its traditional center, and without that it was hard to get a sense of what Jax was all about, and without that it was harder to see the good qualities of the city. I think it's natural for kids in the suburbs to think of their environment as stifling and generic. It's that much harder to get past that when the more attractive alternatives aren't readily apparent. And from there, it's harder to get motivated to do something about it to make your city better, instead of succumbing to fatalism, or leaving.
I'd credit a lot of the current good vibes to the people of past generations who did something about it - those who put the work in to make the city better. The case in point to me is Jake Godbold. He came in at a time when both Downtown and civic pride were probably at their lowest ebbs, but he was the greatest booster the city ever had, encouraging people to think bigger and value their city more. Not every one of his initiatives came together perfectly, but he was so enthusiastic and determined that it was catching. I think the "yes we can" attitude instilled by Jake and his people and successors is a large part of why younger people often have a different outlook than older generations, and are somewhat less susceptible to the inferiority complex that is the city's greatest curse.
Today, things are much different than they were even 20 years ago. Downtown isn't there yet, but but other parts of the urban core have become genuinely cool, and it finally seems like things are on an upswing. There are people interested in - and support - local food, and culture. That's perhaps the biggest change I've seen since growing up here in the 80s and 90s.
You're too modest to say it yourself Bill, but I'd also put your Dad
very near the top of that list of people who made huge strides in making Jacksonville a better city that we could all be proud of. Without the Better Jacksonville Plan, there would be no world-class library in the heart of downtown. Who knows if we'd still be going to the rundown Coliseum and Wolfson Park instead of our new arena and the Baseball Grounds. He was beating the amphitheater drum since the 90s. Guy also did amazing things with preservation, took UNF to another level during his 15 years as President, and was one of the few Republicans in city leadership who took a strong stand in favor of the HRO (his op-ed in the Times-Union was amazing).
John Delaney was a godsend for Jacksonville.
Just saying...