There is no secret, many companies, people (esp middle class) and anyone that's not filthy rich or an 'undocumented person' have left, or is planning to leave Cali. There is virtually no affordable housing in urban/suburban Cali thanks to the extreme 'fill in the blank' policies. Tax tax tax tax tax...Even the so called "most beautiful city in America", San Diego has a huge homeless (tent city) problem, just like LA, Anaheim, SF, OAK, SAC and virtually all of urban Cali. Youtube 'Leaving California' and besides a Maroon 5 song, hundreds and hundreds of posts will pop up.
California, the land of urban tent cities that houses mostly Americans, the catering to illegal immigrants, the Hollywood elite, the Dystopian and authoritarian/censorship happy Silicon Valley social media complex; "Left coast ist" politics that brought a mostly Orwellian "left coast ist" shift to the entire country in the 2000s, fleeing companies, $2000 Uhaul cost to leave San Fran (not the other way around though), a horrible mayor in OAK (Libby Schaaf) that managed to lose the Raiders, Warriors, and tip off criminal illegal immigrants from ICE all under her watch, A new poop app so that Bay Area residents can avoid the doo doo from the homeless, astronomically high rent cost; even literal shacks are worth in the millions and on the on with the problems....
States like AZ, OK, and TX appreciate the booming population as people flee the Golden State, but most do not want that detrimental Cali political nonsense invading their states. Might be the most beautiful state, from the 70s and 80s when people viewed Cali as the land of opportunity and it's politics was more even keeled; now vice versa and many people cannot wait to get out of the Golden State. I talk about Cali alot, because I'm afraid of anti-citizen dystopia, esp invading FL.
I just got back from spending a week in San Diego and LA yesterday. No doubt California is expensive. However, I'm not sure of a mass exodus happening. There was a ton of construction and infill development taking place in both of those metropolitan areas. It appears that the people leaving are being replaced with others moving in.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2018, 10:41:22 PM
It appears that the people leaving are being replaced with others moving in.
I agree. With Cali's extremely lenient immigration policies, the main people that are doing the replacing are from South of the Border. You have many that think an extreme change in demographics is a great thing, others disagree.
One thing for sure is that Cali's middle class has been carved out; From people living in tent cities along the bed of the Santa Ana River to the ultra rich in Malibu somewhere, those two demos are clearly the most dominant in Cali. IMO Cali's governor Jerry Brown make our FL governor Rick Scott (AKA Lord Voldemort) look like one of the best governors in the country, and that's saying alot!!!
What you are seeing in CA is more likely than not the coming norm for the whole country. Remember everything starts in CA and moves east. I don't spend time there, but it sounds like it is becoming a society of 'have' and 'have nots'. The middle class has been disappearing nationwide for going on 40 years. It is just happening first and faster there. The Trump tax shift will only quicken the pace. We are creating lots of low paying jobs and some high paying ones for very educated folks. Not many jobs in the middle though.
The illegal inmigrant population peaked in 2007 and has flatlined since 2012, btw.
Can we maybe see some evidence, statistics? There are a lot of unsupported statements being made in this thread with scant evidence to back them up.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 26, 2018, 04:57:43 AM
What you are seeing in CA is more likely than not the coming norm for the whole country. Remember everything starts in CA and moves east. I don't spend time there, but it sounds like it is becoming a society of 'have' and 'have nots'. The middle class has been disappearing nationwide for going on 40 years. It is just happening first and faster there. The Trump tax shift will only quicken the pace. We are creating lots of low paying jobs and some high paying ones for very educated folks. Not many jobs in the middle though.
The illegal inmigrant population peaked in 2007 and has flatlined since 2012, btw.
I agree with you completely. It has become chic to pick on California. Granted it is expensive to live there but the whole thing sounds like right-wing propaganda. Especially the anti-immigration part. And I'm sick of the "Hollywood elite" tag. What about the "NFL elite", the "NBA Elite", "the Palm Beach elite", the "Broadway elite", the "Ortega elite", the "Trump cabinet elite" and so on. It's a stupid moniker for any group. And do you include the right wing Bruce Willis, James Woods, Clint Eastwood, Rosanne Barr, Gary Sinise, Adam Sandler, Jon Voight, Pat Boone, Dennis Miller, Sylvester Stallone, Tom Selleck, Mel Gibson and Patricia Heaton just to name a few? Are they the "Hollywood elite"? The reason I ask is that the only time I have ever seen that term is when it applies to the "leftists". I guess it's payback because they didn't vote for "crazy man" for President.
So, you want people to believe that the most expensive place to live in America is losing its citizens (Americans who have jobs) and all that housing (used and new) is being swept up by all the illegals coming in??? How in the world are they paying for this? Good grief, you lost any semblance of credibility in your post right there.
Quote from: TimmyB on March 26, 2018, 08:38:44 AM
So, you want people to believe that the most expensive place to live in America is losing its citizens (Americans who have jobs) and all that housing (used and new) is being swept up by all the illegals coming in??? How in the world are they paying for this? Good grief, you lost any semblance of credibility in your post right there.
And there are tent cities in Florida, too. I suppose you can find something similar in a number of states, but it's worth considering that states with warmer or more temperate climates tend to attract homeless people.
Was in the Bay Area/Sonoma last year and it was mentioned quite a bit from the locals how AirBnB, VRBO, and the like were really hurting the housing stock availability for those in the middle class and working in the service industry.
Quote from: Adam White on March 26, 2018, 09:11:25 AM
Quote from: TimmyB on March 26, 2018, 08:38:44 AM
So, you want people to believe that the most expensive place to live in America is losing its citizens (Americans who have jobs) and all that housing (used and new) is being swept up by all the illegals coming in??? How in the world are they paying for this? Good grief, you lost any semblance of credibility in your post right there.
And there are tent cities in Florida, too. I suppose you can find something similar in a number of states, but it's worth considering that states with warmer or more temperate climates tend to attract homeless people.
You can find tent cities in Jax if you're willing to look.
Lake, stop with the actual "boots on the ground " fact-based stuff.
Ever wonder how it got so popular? Cause people want to live there. California attracts money and entrepreneurs. That is a fact.
And Jerry Brown has fixed many of the issues that were left behind by Arnold and Co.
Expect a lot of Cali bashing over the coming year, just don't expect it to be real.
The American Capitalist system has created super billionaires and correspondingly millions of very poor people. Fact.
Freedom isn't free Neither are well maintained societies. Just check Kansas if you want to see evidence of I-10 East's utopian society.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 26, 2018, 09:55:51 AM
You can find tent cities in Jax if you're willing to look.
Yep.
A couple of things here:
California's population isn't declining and in fact is projected to continue. However, it has slowed down immensely from historical rates, down under 1% a year, from being several times that in the 20th century.
http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_116HJ3R.pdf
California has always had a lot of immigrants and that accounted for large parts of its former growth. However, the tide of immigration has slowed just like the rest of the growth.
http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_116HJ3R.pdf
The idea that California attracts more illegal immigrants than other states is largely false. It has the highest total number but it's also by far the biggest state. The percentage of undocumented immigrants is similar to other large states and Sunbelt states. In fact, Texas has a higher percentage. Unauthorized immigrants are a small portion of California's immigrant population.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/interactives/unauthorized-immigrants/
Many of the people who leave California are middle class. Reasons given include the chronic high unemployment rate, the dysfunctional government (dysfunction and out of whack spending is worse than the tax rate), and density in the coastal areas that results in high cost of living, lack of space and congestion. Businesses that leave are seeking out high growth states with lower taxes and unemployment, as that's what businesses do.
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_71.pdf
It's interesting to hear Silicon Valley spoken of as a detriment to California. By all accounts, it's one sector that's working extremely well and employing a ton of people.
I highly doubt that California has more "tent cities" than comparable state, and I doubt that the millions of Californians who have migrated to other states are really considered troublesome. If Texas minds thousands of middle class Southern Californians bringing their money and skills to the state, they're doing a great job of hiding it.
California will always have its beautiful weather and scenery that attract wealthy individuals. It also has the Tech Industry and Entertainment Industry drawing people. California is certainly in a weird place though with its cost of living and debt. California can't raise taxes much more. I would also venture to say that California has the most income inequality in the country. They ran up so much debt during the great recession, just like most places, but have done little during these good times to pay that debt back. Jerry Brown, as a relative moderate, has tried to fight back over his terms and at least balance the current budget and pay off some debt, and to a point he has. But there is financial ruin that is possible if we did hit another deep recession because unlike our federal government, California does not print their own money. California could be a tipping point though because the state is literally too big to fail as one of the top 10 overall economies in the world. Right-leaning Californians have fled the state for Arizona, Nevada, Boise, ID, Utah, Colorado and even Texas, but have generally been replaced in a political self selection by wealthy more left-leaning individuals.
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 28, 2018, 12:21:28 PM
I would also venture to say that California has the most income inequality in the country.
I'd say, "venture again". Apparently, California is 7th (one spot ahead of Texas)...and Florida is 5th.
https://www.epi.org/publication/income-inequality-in-the-us/ (https://www.epi.org/publication/income-inequality-in-the-us/)
Quote from: Adam White on March 28, 2018, 04:59:15 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 28, 2018, 12:21:28 PM
I would also venture to say that California has the most income inequality in the country.
I'd say, "venture again". Apparently, California is 7th (one spot ahead of Texas)...and Florida is 5th.
https://www.epi.org/publication/income-inequality-in-the-us/ (https://www.epi.org/publication/income-inequality-in-the-us/)
That makes sense for Florida. For California, it means the bottom is rising in that low income citizens are leaving due to the cost of living and being replaced by wealthier people. Just my interpretation of the data.
https://www.vividmaps.com/2017/03/to-which-states-californians-are.html
QuoteTo which states Californians are immigrating
March 6, 2017
California exports its poor to Texas, other states, while wealthier people move in.
About 2.5 million people living close to the official poverty line left California for other states from 2005 through 2015, while 1.7 million
people at that income level moved in from other states – for a net loss of 800,000. During the same period, the state experienced a net gain of about 20,000 residents earning at least five times the poverty rate – or $100,000 for a family of three.
To which states Californians are immigrating
(https://www.vividmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/California.jpg)
This is a good article from a year ago...
http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/article136478098.html
QuoteEvery year from 2000 through 2015, more people left California than moved in from other states. This migration was not spread evenly across all income groups, a Sacramento Bee review of U.S. Census Bureau data found. The people leaving tend to be relatively poor, and many lack college degrees. Move higher up the income spectrum, and slightly more people are coming than going.
QuoteLosing impoverished residents to other states is better for the state's economy than losing wealthy residents, some experts said. But they said the migration itself is a symptom of deeper social problems largely related to how expensive California has become.
"Why are people leaving? Economic reasons, the high cost of living, are certainly a part of it," said Hans Johnson, senior fellow at the nonpartisan Public Policy Institute of California. "For those people (near the poverty line), California is not viable."
http://www.visualcapitalist.com/57-percent-homes-sf-one-million/
(http://2oqz471sa19h3vbwa53m33yj.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/sf-million-dollar-homes.gif)
QuoteIn 2012, just under 20% of homes in San Francisco were worth over $1 million. Today, over 57% of homes have hit the mark, meaning that the majority of homes are now selling for over seven figures.
While San Francisco gets the majority of the attention for its housing prices, the situation is actually much wider in scope. San Jose and Oakland have seen the percentage of such houses increase to 46.3% and 19.7% respectively. Meanwhile, in Southern California, the number of $1 million houses have doubled in both San Diego and Los Angeles over the last four years.
MILLION DOLLAR HOUSING MARKETS IN THE U.S.
City $1MM homes (2012) $1MM homes (2016) Percentage point change
San Francisco, CA 19.6% 57.4% +37.8%
San Jose, CA 17.4% 46.3% +28.9%
Oakland, CA 5.2% 19.7% +14.5%
Orange County, CA 7.1% 16.1% +8.9%
Los Angeles, CA 8.0% 16.3% +8.3%
Honolulu, HI 8.1% 15.4% +7.3%
San Diego, CA 5.4% 10.7% +5.2%
New York, NY 7.0% 12.0% +4.9%
Ventura County, CA 4.3% 9.0% +4.6%
Seattle, WA 2.5% 7.0% +4.5%
Data courtesy of: Trulia
Looking at individual neighborhoods, the numbers get even more intense. In Westwood Park in San Francisco, for example, only 2.9% of homes were worth over a million dollars in 2012. Today, 96.0% of houses there hit the mark, leaving only a few pockets that have some element of affordability.
Just south of the San Francisco airport is the neighborhood of Nineteenth Avenue in San Mateo. There, not a single house can be found for under $1 million. This wasn't the case in 2012, when only about 10% of houses were in seven digit territory.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 30, 2018, 07:22:02 AM
http://www.visualcapitalist.com/57-percent-homes-sf-one-million/
(http://2oqz471sa19h3vbwa53m33yj.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/sf-million-dollar-homes.gif)
QuoteIn 2012, just under 20% of homes in San Francisco were worth over $1 million. Today, over 57% of homes have hit the mark, meaning that the majority of homes are now selling for over seven figures.
While San Francisco gets the majority of the attention for its housing prices, the situation is actually much wider in scope. San Jose and Oakland have seen the percentage of such houses increase to 46.3% and 19.7% respectively. Meanwhile, in Southern California, the number of $1 million houses have doubled in both San Diego and Los Angeles over the last four years.
MILLION DOLLAR HOUSING MARKETS IN THE U.S.
City $1MM homes (2012) $1MM homes (2016) Percentage point change
San Francisco, CA 19.6% 57.4% +37.8%
San Jose, CA 17.4% 46.3% +28.9%
Oakland, CA 5.2% 19.7% +14.5%
Orange County, CA 7.1% 16.1% +8.9%
Los Angeles, CA 8.0% 16.3% +8.3%
Honolulu, HI 8.1% 15.4% +7.3%
San Diego, CA 5.4% 10.7% +5.2%
New York, NY 7.0% 12.0% +4.9%
Ventura County, CA 4.3% 9.0% +4.6%
Seattle, WA 2.5% 7.0% +4.5%
Data courtesy of: Trulia
Looking at individual neighborhoods, the numbers get even more intense. In Westwood Park in San Francisco, for example, only 2.9% of homes were worth over a million dollars in 2012. Today, 96.0% of houses there hit the mark, leaving only a few pockets that have some element of affordability.
Just south of the San Francisco airport is the neighborhood of Nineteenth Avenue in San Mateo. There, not a single house can be found for under $1 million. This wasn't the case in 2012, when only about 10% of houses were in seven digit territory.
I have it on good authority that haircuts are really expensive there, too.
It is a big reason why "workforce housing" makes some sense out there because literally school teachers cannot afford to live in San Francisco. In Jax, workforce housing is most of our neighborhoods.
So lots of people with lots of money are moving there and buying homes? Not sure what you can prove/disprove from the map.
Or are they trying to sell at this price point and not selling? Stats revealing what homes are selling for and who is doing the buying (wealthy foreigners?) might be more useful.
Not near as bad as Vancouver BC.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 30, 2018, 01:07:01 PM
So lots of people with lots of money are moving there and buying homes? Not sure what you can prove/disprove from the map.
Or are they trying to sell at this price point and not selling? Stats revealing what homes are selling for and who is doing the buying (wealthy foreigners?) might be more useful.
Not near as bad as Vancouver BC.
Wow... the map is a tool for understanding... perhaps this article from the previous post might prove useful?
http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/article136478098.html
California is a place that basically no one relocates to unless (a) they have a great job/job offer, or (b) they have a friend to live with for next to nothing. There is simply no way a person can afford to move there, not within 50 miles of the coast, anyways.
My cousin, who has spent her whole life there, just shared this post on FB a couple of weeks ago. This is in Sunnyvale, not a "destination" by any stretch of the imagination. An 848 SF house went for $2M, which was $550K over asking!!! Over $2350 per SF. Absolute insanity, but the market dictates the price, not liberals nor cons. If Cali is losing residents "in droves", I don't believe you'd see things like this happening.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/02/sunnyvale-home-shatters-new-record-with-enormous-price-tag/ (https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/02/sunnyvale-home-shatters-new-record-with-enormous-price-tag/)
Quote from: TimmyB on March 30, 2018, 01:54:46 PM
California is a place that basically no one relocates to unless (a) they have a great job/job offer, or (b) they have a friend to live with for next to nothing. There is simply no way a person can afford to move there, not within 50 miles of the coast, anyways.
My cousin, who has spent her whole life there, just shared this post on FB a couple of weeks ago. This is in Sunnyvale, not a "destination" by any stretch of the imagination. An 848 SF house went for $2M, which was $550K over asking!!! Over $2350 per SF. Absolute insanity, but the market dictates the price, not liberals nor cons. If Cali is losing residents "in droves", I don't believe you'd see things like this happening.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/02/sunnyvale-home-shatters-new-record-with-enormous-price-tag/ (https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/02/sunnyvale-home-shatters-new-record-with-enormous-price-tag/)
Agreed. The price of the Valley is now insane. Sunnyvale is in the middle of it. There is so much money and wealth in tech right now that people can spend it in droves.
I'd like to know more about that house. Can you get a Realtor.com link? It might be on a huge lot that allows building a multi family or other
more profitable build type. (Update: I see the link. Thanks!)
Hey New York is ridiculous prices but there is a never ending demand for housing there. NY and Cali both draw a wealthy international clientele. As does Greater Miami. Jax not so much.....
Quote from: MusicMan on March 30, 2018, 01:07:01 PM
So lots of people with lots of money are moving there and buying homes? Not sure what you can prove/disprove from the map.
Or are they trying to sell at this price point and not selling? Stats revealing what homes are selling for and who is doing the buying (wealthy foreigners?) might be more useful.
Not near as bad as Vancouver BC.
I have an uncle that is a prominent real estate attorney in LA, and he has told me that the market there has been flooded with Asian money in recent years. He says that that a lot of prominent Chinese and Korean corporations/investment groups are sinking substantial money into the California market to diversify their portfolio and also hedge against economic uncertainty there. A Korean company just built the tallest building in California (the 1,100' tall Wilshire Grand), and I believe there are several other huge projects backed by Asian money under way. He also said that the Chinese economy has created a lot of new wealth, and that many Chinese are paranoid about government takings due to China's communist past. Their LA/California homes are more of an investment/safety net than they are a vacation home.
Another factor to consider in California is just how well the top 5% or so are doing out there, not to mention all the old money and vacation homes of the world's elite. All those Silicon Valley millionares now have multiple homes, as does everyone in the entertainment industry, and general business. My uncle has a house that he stays at near his office in Century City during the week, and a weekend home in Pasadena. It's not unusual for the wealthy in LA to have two city homes and a Malibu/Santa Barbara/Monterrey beach home. Just a completely different world from what people in Jacksonville know.
As has been said, California is an incredible place for the well off, but difficult for even people that are considered upper middle class in Florida.
One of my best friends is an MD who did his fellowship at Stanford. Despite being a doctor (at Stanford) he was just getting by in the Bay Area. His family had a 1200 square foot, 2-bedroom apartment on the 3rd floor, with no elevator, that cost $2200 a month in Redwood City. The whole family had transit passes, but they also had to have a car; they drove a Subaru with a cracked windshield he inherited from his grandfather. I've rarely met a doctor in any other city who lived like that.
He could have stayed at Stanford after his fellowship, but instead they decided to take a job in Reno, with higher pay and a much lower cost of living. It was not rate for his colleagues to do that.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 30, 2018, 02:32:42 PM
I'd like to know more about that house. Can you get a Realtor.com link? It might be on a huge lot that allows building a multi family or other
more profitable build type. (Update: I see the link. Thanks!)
Hey New York is ridiculous prices but there is a never ending demand for housing there. NY and Cali both draw a wealthy international clientele. As does Greater Miami. Jax not so much.....
You get retired teachers from Michigan, and all the associated cachet!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjXUBMkkE8
Quote from: Tacachale on March 30, 2018, 04:13:07 PM
One of my best friends is an MD who did his fellowship at Stanford. Despite being a doctor (at Stanford) he was just getting by in the Bay Area. His family had a 1200 square foot, 2-bedroom apartment on the 3rd floor, with no elevator, that cost $2200 a month in Redwood City. The whole family had transit passes, but they also had to have a car; they drove a Subaru with a cracked windshield he inherited from his grandfather. I've rarely met a doctor in any other city who lived like that.
He could have stayed at Stanford after his fellowship, but instead they decided to take a job in Reno, with higher pay and a much lower cost of living. It was not rate for his colleagues to do that.
That's the thing - one of those high paying tech jobs is probably required to have the same living standard a someone making a lot less in another state due to the high cost of living.
This will be a problem if the people preparing the high income earners' food, cleaning their appartments, fixing their cars... can no longer afford to live in the area.
Of course, that is unless you pay them more, which will lead to increased prices and a higher cost of living....
Quote from: Adam White on March 26, 2018, 07:02:02 AM
Can we maybe see some evidence, statistics? There are a lot of unsupported statements being made in this thread with scant evidence to back them up.
You got it!!! I'm sure that all of this 'right wing propaganda news' that I've posted are lying, and everything is all hunky dory in Cali.... I don't check my posts in a long time because I have online anxiety sometimes. Well, atleast the name calling was kept in check, the 'rah rah team liberal' predictably wasn't though....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZQ-95fQlGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bMaRzum82I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So_Ak6Ip0LU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u1QJ1KcsQA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRQRg3xhehs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA--67Len4I
^^^I could post some 'conservative' sites that will get to the heart of the matter, with a myriad of detrimental issues in Cali that the MSM won't touch, but you and others will dismiss it as 'conservative propaganda' without even reading and debunking it.
I posted from the liberal MSM above, talking about the downturn of California; I really don't get the purpose of your counter argument...Did I post 'MSM liberal propaganda now"? Damned if I do, damned if I don't....
One more Cali posting before "The Jaxson' debuts.
SF Crime, Homeless, Needles and Feces Scare Off Tourist and $40M Medical Convention Leaves Town Because they "Aren't Safe There".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsAY6tOFJNs
California is incapable of solving their problems. They are caught in a political progress trap. The only way out will be through the drain at the bottom.
As a former (happily)californian... I agree... 8)
Will California become the gated community of the US? Or will the elite leave too?
Many Californians are pleased, thrilled with the De- Promotion.
Northern California landscape, community likely more resilient than NE Florida/ North Florida.
I guess the polar opposite of Califonia is the conservative bastion of West Virginia (also declining population!). Given a choice I'll take my chances in California. You guys can have WV.
Interesting you mention WV. I have a second home in northern WV. My wife and I live there in the winter and just returned a week ago. WV is not as conservative as you would think. They have voted pretty much Democratic since the great Depression. That only recently changed in the last 10 years. Most of the people we knew were fairly liberal in their values. But they tend to support their livelihood which includes coal industry, forest products and tourism. Thus during the last 10 years their has been a split with the Democrat's due to their tendency to kill the coal and forest industry. This gave the impression that it is a bastion of conservatism. Actually there is a large group of artisans in WV. It is fairly inexpensive to live there and you can make a living with your art. We had multiple wood carving, glass blowing, pottery, painters, photography and art shops, etc. in the area around us. I may be stereotyping artisans as liberal, but their is some truth to that. also WVU is not far form us, and not unlike many educational institutions these days, fairly liberal. So my impression of WV after living there many time over the last 40 years, it is not as conservative as you might believe.
If you love the outdoors with rafting, kayaking, hiking, fishing, mountain biking and skiing and don't mind little isolation(if you live in WV you are always in "voluntary isolation") it is a great place to live. I would live there full time but "have the same issue as Kerry". My wife likes the amenities of the "big city".
Northern California small towns, communities interfaces with protected public lands are appealing to some.
This thread still holds true. While Cali isn't seeing subtractive population losses like the states of Illinois and New York (because it's a sanctuary state on the border) the mass exodus mainly comes from Cali's former middle class tax base. California, the land of the very rich and very poor; who needs a stinking middle class?
I guess Joe Manchin is proof of what you say. I appreciate the info from a local. For what it's worth, two families I consider good friends both went to San Fran (separately) on recent holiday (last 2 months). They loved it, had no issues as tourists with any homeless people or feces in the street.
I know it's there (homeless problem) but they had a great time and would go back in a hearbeat. Just so you know.
^^^No doubt that West Virginia has serious issues, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. To my knowledge, West Virginia (-4.11 since 2010) and Illinois (-1.41) are the only two states that have negative population.
IMO WV's problem is that they are too much of an 'one trick pony' with coal mining (a declining industry) being the main business in that state. It kinda reminds me of Venezuela, and it's economy being solely (and formerly) propped up by oil, and no economic diversification.
IMO WV and CA are very beautiful states and both virtually being political polar opposites; if they had their acts together, the potential would be limitless (esp with CA).
https://worldpopulationreview.com/states/
Quote from: jaxjags on March 21, 2020, 05:20:23 PM
Interesting you mention WV. I have a second home in northern WV. My wife and I live there in the winter and just returned a week ago. WV is not as conservative as you would think. They have voted pretty much Democratic since the great Depression. That only recently changed in the last 10 years. Most of the people we knew were fairly liberal in their values. But they tend to support their livelihood which includes coal industry, forest products and tourism. Thus during the last 10 years their has been a split with the Democrat's due to their tendency to kill the coal and forest industry. This gave the impression that it is a bastion of conservatism. Actually there is a large group of artisans in WV. It is fairly inexpensive to live there and you can make a living with your art. We had multiple wood carving, glass blowing, pottery, painters, photography and art shops, etc. in the area around us. I may be stereotyping artisans as liberal, but their is some truth to that. also WVU is not far form us, and not unlike many educational institutions these days, fairly liberal. So my impression of WV after living there many time over the last 40 years, it is not as conservative as you might believe.
If you love the outdoors with rafting, kayaking, hiking, fishing, mountain biking and skiing and don't mind little isolation(if you live in WV you are always in "voluntary isolation") it is a great place to live. I would live there full time but "have the same issue as Kerry". My wife likes the amenities of the "big city".
I'm sure that there are small pockets of liberalism within WV, but remember this is the state with all red counties in the 2016 election. West Virginia is about as Republican as California is Democrat (and now literally socialist, since Bernie won there). I'm sure that nearby Virginia's recent very leftist political direction with abortion and guns is only just hardening WV's conservative stance.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 21, 2020, 10:14:27 PM
I guess Joe Manchin is proof of what you say. I appreciate the info from a local. For what it's worth, two families I consider good friends both went to San Fran (separately) on recent holiday (last 2 months). They loved it, had no issues as tourists with any homeless people or feces in the street.
I know it's there (homeless problem) but they had a great time and would go back in a hearbeat. Just so you know.
Sigh....
I canceled the plane tickets today. I was really looking forward to it, but the PGA Championships has been canceled, my brother's leave has been canceled, and no one knows where we're going to be as a country in a couple more months so me and the Mrs. decided to call it.
Still hoping Portland in October is going to be a go.
Quote from: I-10east on March 21, 2020, 10:54:20 PM
Quote from: jaxjags on March 21, 2020, 05:20:23 PM
Interesting you mention WV. I have a second home in northern WV. My wife and I live there in the winter and just returned a week ago. WV is not as conservative as you would think. They have voted pretty much Democratic since the great Depression. That only recently changed in the last 10 years. Most of the people we knew were fairly liberal in their values. But they tend to support their livelihood which includes coal industry, forest products and tourism. Thus during the last 10 years their has been a split with the Democrat's due to their tendency to kill the coal and forest industry. This gave the impression that it is a bastion of conservatism. Actually there is a large group of artisans in WV. It is fairly inexpensive to live there and you can make a living with your art. We had multiple wood carving, glass blowing, pottery, painters, photography and art shops, etc. in the area around us. I may be stereotyping artisans as liberal, but their is some truth to that. also WVU is not far form us, and not unlike many educational institutions these days, fairly liberal. So my impression of WV after living there many time over the last 40 years, it is not as conservative as you might believe.
If you love the outdoors with rafting, kayaking, hiking, fishing, mountain biking and skiing and don't mind little isolation(if you live in WV you are always in "voluntary isolation") it is a great place to live. I would live there full time but "have the same issue as Kerry". My wife likes the amenities of the "big city".
I'm sure that there are small pockets of liberalism within WV, but remember this is the state with all red counties in the 2016 election. West Virginia is about as Republican as California is Democrat (and now literally socialist, since Bernie won there). I'm sure that nearby Virginia's recent very leftist political direction with abortion and guns is only just hardening WV's conservative stance.
I don't want to belabor this, but the reason for red 2016 was the issue around banning coal as a fuel. Also, coal isn't the only issue in WV. If you have been there you realize why they call it the mountain state. Transportation infrastructure is very expensive. Also, loss of population in WV has little to do with politics or cost of living as it does in CA. In WV younger people are looking for more opportunities. Forest products industry is growing but highly dependent on the housing industry. Yes population is going down but not for the same reasons as CA.
If you don't mind a simpler life style it is a great place to live.
"banning coal as a fuel".... I don't specifically remember that issue, LNG became way cheaper, less harmful to the planet. China is still burning a lot of coal aren't they?
Also very low birth rate in WV, not enough to replace the dying elderly population. That's an American issue.
QuoteCalifornia is Democrat (and now literally socialist, since Bernie won there).
Sanders won 35.5% in a multiple candidate field. Biden got 28% and probably would have won if Bloomberg had not jumped in. Much of the vote was cast early which helped Sanders.
West Virginia voted for Clinton both in '92 and '96 but since 2000 has gotten redder with each cycle. HRC didn't win a single county in 2016 but neither did Obama in 2012.
HRC flubbed the coal issue because she spoke the truth and then reversed herself. Coal isn't coming back and Trump only exploited their fears and gave them false hope. He also falsely blamed Democrats for the decline in coal when in fact it was more due to other market factors.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 21, 2020, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on March 21, 2020, 10:14:27 PM
I guess Joe Manchin is proof of what you say. I appreciate the info from a local. For what it's worth, two families I consider good friends both went to San Fran (separately) on recent holiday (last 2 months). They loved it, had no issues as tourists with any homeless people or feces in the street.
I know it's there (homeless problem) but they had a great time and would go back in a hearbeat. Just so you know.
Sigh....
I canceled the plane tickets today. I was really looking forward to it, but the PGA Championships has been canceled, my brother's leave has been canceled, and no one knows where we're going to be as a country in a couple more months so me and the Mrs. decided to call it.
Still hoping Portland in October is going to be a go.
That sucks, dude. Sorry to hear it. My wife and I were supposed to leave for Tokyo in April. A lot of tat happening.
Quote from: jaxjags on March 22, 2020, 12:33:06 PM
I don't want to belabor this, but the reason for red 2016 was the issue around banning coal as a fuel. Also, coal isn't the only issue in WV. If you have been there you realize why they call it the mountain state. Transportation infrastructure is very expensive. Also, loss of population in WV has little to do with politics or cost of living as it does in CA. In WV younger people are looking for more opportunities. Forest products industry is growing but highly dependent on the housing industry. Yes population is going down but not for the same reasons as CA.
If you don't mind a simpler life style it is a great place to live.
I never correlated California's and West Virginia's problems as "the same"; two totally different situations. I said that both are beautiful states, the only correlation that I made between CA and WV. Good point about WV's expensive transportation because of the terrain; I can imagine that I-77's tunnel tolls through WV is very important for the state.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 22, 2020, 02:16:14 PM
QuoteCalifornia is Democrat (and now literally socialist, since Bernie won there).
West Virginia voted for Clinton both in '92 and '96 but since 2000 has gotten redder with each cycle. HRC didn't win a single county in 2016 but neither did Obama in 2012.
The nineties, back when Democrats were much more moderate, and the party's foundation wasn't solely divisive wedge issues. True Democrat moderates being afraid to push back against the radical fringe left is one of the DNCs biggest problems. Many many within the Walkaway movement (yes it's real, don't listen to the fake MSM) say that "They haven't left the Democrat Party, the Democrat Party left them".
Quote from: I-10east on March 22, 2020, 03:54:30 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 22, 2020, 02:16:14 PM
QuoteCalifornia is Democrat (and now literally socialist, since Bernie won there).
West Virginia voted for Clinton both in '92 and '96 but since 2000 has gotten redder with each cycle. HRC didn't win a single county in 2016 but neither did Obama in 2012.
The nineties, back when Democrats were much more moderate, and the party's foundation wasn't solely divisive wedge issues. True Democrat moderates being afraid to push back against the radical fringe left is one of the DNCs biggest problems. Many many within the Walkaway movement (yes it's real, don't listen to the fake MSM) say that "They haven't left the Democrat Party, the Democrat Party left them".
Moderate candidates have outperformed the more left wing candidates in nearly every state primary so far. That trend looks likely to continue. And even a few weeks into the COVID-19 outbreak, voting was up over 2016.
"The nineties, back when Democrats were much more moderate, and the party's foundation wasn't solely divisive wedge issues. True Democrat moderates being afraid to push back against the radical fringe left is one of the DNCs biggest problems. Many many within the Walkaway movement (yes it's real, don't listen to the fake MSM) say that "They haven't left the Democrat Party, the Democrat Party left them".
I find many of your comments, including this one, strange. I guess you missed how the Dems "walked away" yet placed the first Senator into an Alabama seat in how long? And that swing in the House (2018), boy did they ever 'walk away'. I can only assume you believe Trump to be a Moderate, who beat out all the extremist Republican candidates for the nomination. I wish you well.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 22, 2020, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 21, 2020, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on March 21, 2020, 10:14:27 PM
I guess Joe Manchin is proof of what you say. I appreciate the info from a local. For what it's worth, two families I consider good friends both went to San Fran (separately) on recent holiday (last 2 months). They loved it, had no issues as tourists with any homeless people or feces in the street.
I know it's there (homeless problem) but they had a great time and would go back in a hearbeat. Just so you know.
Sigh....
I canceled the plane tickets today. I was really looking forward to it, but the PGA Championships has been canceled, my brother's leave has been canceled, and no one knows where we're going to be as a country in a couple more months so me and the Mrs. decided to call it.
Still hoping Portland in October is going to be a go.
That sucks, dude. Sorry to hear it. My wife and I were supposed to leave for Tokyo in April. A lot of tat happening.
Yep... canceled a Vegas trip in May...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 23, 2020, 07:22:59 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 22, 2020, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 21, 2020, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on March 21, 2020, 10:14:27 PM
I guess Joe Manchin is proof of what you say. I appreciate the info from a local. For what it's worth, two families I consider good friends both went to San Fran (separately) on recent holiday (last 2 months). They loved it, had no issues as tourists with any homeless people or feces in the street.
I know it's there (homeless problem) but they had a great time and would go back in a hearbeat. Just so you know.
Sigh....
I canceled the plane tickets today. I was really looking forward to it, but the PGA Championships has been canceled, my brother's leave has been canceled, and no one knows where we're going to be as a country in a couple more months so me and the Mrs. decided to call it.
Still hoping Portland in October is going to be a go.
That sucks, dude. Sorry to hear it. My wife and I were supposed to leave for Tokyo in April. A lot of tat happening.
Yep... canceled a Vegas trip in May...
We've got tickets booked for Jax in August. Seems so far away, yet it appears we might not be able to go. It's strange living in a world of uncertainty like this.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 22, 2020, 07:21:12 PM
I find many of your comments, including this one, strange. I guess you missed how the Dems "walked away" yet placed the first Senator into an Alabama seat in how long? And that swing in the House (2018), boy did they ever 'walk away'. I can only assume you believe Trump to be a Moderate, who beat out all the extremist Republican candidates for the nomination. I wish you well.
I don't understand what the Alabama Senator has to do with anything (like paradigms dont shift, and Doug Jones didn't faceoff against a weak Republican candidate with a bunch of controversies) but okay.
Trump is the most moderate candidate running; he is an old school New York City business Democrat with a "R" in front of his name.
Nope, the other Republican candidates (of the near past and present) aren't extremist, they are gutless sellout open borders Romney-ite RINOs; they are too busy trying to appease the far left wing, while Trump doesn't give a crap about that.
Quote from: I-10east on March 23, 2020, 07:10:26 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on March 22, 2020, 07:21:12 PM
I find many of your comments, including this one, strange. I guess you missed how the Dems "walked away" yet placed the first Senator into an Alabama seat in how long? And that swing in the House (2018), boy did they ever 'walk away'. I can only assume you believe Trump to be a Moderate, who beat out all the extremist Republican candidates for the nomination. I wish you well.
I don't understand what the Alabama Senator has to do with anything (like paradigms dont shift, and Doug Jones didn't faceoff against a weak Republican candidate with a bunch of controversies) but okay.
Trump is the most moderate candidate running; he is an old school New York City business Democrat with a "R" in front of his name.
Nope, the other Republican candidates (of the near past and present) aren't extremist, they are gutless sellout open borders Romney-ite RINOs; they are too busy trying to appease the far left wing, while Trump doesn't give a crap about that.
Trump is a fraud and a conman that doesn't give a damn about anything or anyone but himself. He has no philosophy or morals or guiding principles except enriching himself. He is a failure at business but that has been masked by his father's money, taxpayer giveaways, and payoffs by Russian oligarchs.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 23, 2020, 08:59:07 PM
Quote from: I-10east on March 23, 2020, 07:10:26 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on March 22, 2020, 07:21:12 PM
I find many of your comments, including this one, strange. I guess you missed how the Dems "walked away" yet placed the first Senator into an Alabama seat in how long? And that swing in the House (2018), boy did they ever 'walk away'. I can only assume you believe Trump to be a Moderate, who beat out all the extremist Republican candidates for the nomination. I wish you well.
I don't understand what the Alabama Senator has to do with anything (like paradigms dont shift, and Doug Jones didn't faceoff against a weak Republican candidate with a bunch of controversies) but okay.
Trump is the most moderate candidate running; he is an old school New York City business Democrat with a "R" in front of his name.
Nope, the other Republican candidates (of the near past and present) aren't extremist, they are gutless sellout open borders Romney-ite RINOs; they are too busy trying to appease the far left wing, while Trump doesn't give a crap about that.
Trump is a fraud and a conman that doesn't give a damn about anything or anyone but himself. He has no philosophy or morals or guiding principles except enriching himself. He is a failure at business but that has been masked by his father's money, taxpayer giveaways, and payoffs by Russian oligarchs.
How true! Donald Trump is beginning to act like benevolent Uncle Donnie of late. What a boring, poor reader he is. Every other word from his "press conferences" is a political ad. "Due to my/his leadership, we are going to beat this unseen enemy". Didn't he call Coronavirus a hoax from the liberal media and the Dems? He and the repubs are acting so nice now. They want to help the American people, but want it to all go thru them. What they can't stuff in their pockets will trickle down to the working class. They want all money to go to them and their corporate comrads. Trump will funnel millions into his businesses. So many are fooled by this orange jackass.
Durr #OrangeManBad. Because the Dem leadership is SOOOO competent, putting the climate farce, illegal aliens, and other leftist crap ahead of reeling US citizens within the coronavirus outbreak. Finally the Dem buffoons at the helm passes the biparasian relief package, but it's too late, because the Dems fraudulence has been exposed.
At least the Dems held out for the working people and this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/trump-businesses-barred-from-getting-coronavirus-stimulus-money-schumer-says/ar-BB11Gi86?ocid=primedhp
Quote from: I-10east on March 25, 2020, 06:27:13 AM
Durr #OrangeManBad. Because the Dem leadership is SOOOO competent, putting the climate farce, illegal aliens, and other leftist crap ahead of reeling US citizens within the coronavirus outbreak. Finally the Dem buffoons at the helm passes the biparasian relief package, but it's too late, because the Dems fraudulence has been exposed.
What has really been exposed:
Capitalism collapses in the absence of Socialism.
Republicans are fine with Socialism as long as they are the beneficiaries.
Republicans don't give a damn about deficits [not that most of us ever believed they did].
Democrats will do what is needed in a crisis, regardless of which party controls the White House. Republicans will only do so when they control the WH.
Republicans don't give a damn about being 'pro-life' except to the extent they can exploit the issue for political gain.
Republicans will tolerate the naked emperor as long as they can personally profit from doing so. Once that stops, they reign him in.
So true. Where are all the GOP deficit hawks?
Why is this stimulus plan not socialism? Is it only when another party is in power?
So tired of hearing about political gamesmanship from the experts in the same.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 25, 2020, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: I-10east on March 25, 2020, 06:27:13 AM
Durr #OrangeManBad. Because the Dem leadership is SOOOO competent, putting the climate farce, illegal aliens, and other leftist crap ahead of reeling US citizens within the coronavirus outbreak. Finally the Dem buffoons at the helm passes the biparasian relief package, but it's too late, because the Dems fraudulence has been exposed.
What has really been exposed:
Capitalism collapses in the absence of Socialism.
Republicans are fine with Socialism as long as they are the beneficiaries.
Republicans don't give a damn about deficits [not that most of us ever believed they did].
Democrats will do what is needed in a crisis, regardless of which party controls the White House. Republicans will only do so when they control the WH.
Republicans don't give a damn about being 'pro-life' except to the extent they can exploit the issue for political gain.
Republicans will tolerate the naked emperor as long as they can personally profit from doing so. Once that stops, they reign him in.
I think Newt Gingrich and the Republican controlled congress in the 1990s clearly cared about the deficit. It was the only time in my life there was a budget surplus. Certainly equal credit goes to the Clinton Administration, but bottom line is they did it. Additionally, many of the relief bills from the 2008 financial crisis were passed prior to Obama taking office.
That aside, I personally think both of your views on the "other" parties are bananas and I think the views of, "The other party is a giant POS" is a big part of the reason we are where we are in this world of partisanship.
You can easily find examples of people from both parties doing either idiotic things or morally questionable things.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 25, 2020, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: I-10east on March 25, 2020, 06:27:13 AM
Durr #OrangeManBad. Because the Dem leadership is SOOOO competent, putting the climate farce, illegal aliens, and other leftist crap ahead of reeling US citizens within the coronavirus outbreak. Finally the Dem buffoons at the helm passes the biparasian relief package, but it's too late, because the Dems fraudulence has been exposed.
What has really been exposed:
Capitalism collapses in the absence of Socialism.
Republicans are fine with Socialism as long as they are the beneficiaries.
Republicans don't give a damn about deficits [not that most of us ever believed they did].
Democrats will do what is needed in a crisis, regardless of which party controls the White House. Republicans will only do so when they control the WH.
Republicans don't give a damn about being 'pro-life' except to the extent they can exploit the issue for political gain.
Republicans will tolerate the naked emperor as long as they can personally profit from doing so. Once that stops, they reign him in.
Complete mass of generalizations and exaggerations. I thought you were better than that Vic
Yikes, some thread y'all got here.
May be time to shut this one down.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 25, 2020, 09:57:18 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 25, 2020, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: I-10east on March 25, 2020, 06:27:13 AM
Durr #OrangeManBad. Because the Dem leadership is SOOOO competent, putting the climate farce, illegal aliens, and other leftist crap ahead of reeling US citizens within the coronavirus outbreak. Finally the Dem buffoons at the helm passes the biparasian relief package, but it's too late, because the Dems fraudulence has been exposed.
What has really been exposed:
Capitalism collapses in the absence of Socialism.
Republicans are fine with Socialism as long as they are the beneficiaries.
Republicans don't give a damn about deficits [not that most of us ever believed they did].
Democrats will do what is needed in a crisis, regardless of which party controls the White House. Republicans will only do so when they control the WH.
Republicans don't give a damn about being 'pro-life' except to the extent they can exploit the issue for political gain.
Republicans will tolerate the naked emperor as long as they can personally profit from doing so. Once that stops, they reign him in.
Complete mass of generalizations and exaggerations. I thought you were better than that Vic
Sick and tire of what I have seen that last 12 years.
Socialism is the evil whipping boy, until all of a sudden the stock market tanks. Then its ok.
What happened to letting the marketplace work? What happened to pulling yourself up by the bootstraps?
Silly Sarah Palin yells about non-existent 'death panels' she somehow found in the ACA. Now, they are willing to let people die so the economy can 'get back to normal' sooner. The GOP successfully demonized and undermined the ACA for 12 years, to great political success. Then they gain complete control of government and do not even provide an alternative. They do the bare minimum to maintain it, because they now fear the consequences of full repeal. Meanwhile the ACA is the only thing allowing some people to get medical attention during a pandemic.
Democrats do the hard work of preventing a depression in 2009, while the GOP does nothing except throw stones at it. They use it as fodder to win back Congress and bitch about how much it cost. BTW, 40% of that bailout was a PAYROLL TAX CUT for wage earners.
Fast forward to the 2020 crisis and now the GOP is in control of the government and they fault DEMOCRATS for not jumping on board to help. This bailout costs more than TWICE what the 2009 bailout did, yet not a word about that. Plus they try to create a 1/2 trillion dollar slush fund controlled by one man to appease their corporate donors. If Democrats were like the Republicans of 2009, they would have not even voted for it all, yet they did because the country needs it.
If you don't like what I type, then tell what parts I got wrong. For the 'bothsideism' crowd, what it is that Democrats supported broadly last year or five years or 10 years ago, that they now don't, or vice versa?
Quote from: Snaketoz on March 25, 2020, 09:11:22 AM
At least the Dems held out for the working people and this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/trump-businesses-barred-from-getting-coronavirus-stimulus-money-schumer-says/ar-BB11Gi86?ocid=primedhp
Because of course the evil Orange man was gonna steal that relief money....That 'provision' is just Demoncrat grandstanding BS...
Quote from: I-10east on March 25, 2020, 12:15:33 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on March 25, 2020, 09:11:22 AM
At least the Dems held out for the working people and this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/trump-businesses-barred-from-getting-coronavirus-stimulus-money-schumer-says/ar-BB11Gi86?ocid=primedhp
Because of course the evil Orange man was gonna steal that relief money....That 'provision' is just Demoncrat grandstanding BS...
Trump literally stated that he himself would provide the 'oversight' of the funds. His own charity was shut down for breaking the law.
Please.